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I always liked the idea of gork and mork being the two of the old ones who created the krork and posed as divine figures to survive the war against the c'tan!

Gives a whole new light on the Old Ones then

They were described as beings of reptilian patience, wise and so on and so forth.

Gork and Mork are deific hooligans

Now i may have to subscribe to this theory, as it would be fething hilarious that the beings that created the Webway and a whole bunch of races were basically uber-orks

 shamroll wrote:

As to why they haven't killed off the Chaos Gods.

Tzeentch- can't find him...mazes are boring
Nurgle - Would you want to headbutt someone who smells that bad?
Khorne - too much fun as an opponent to kill him off.
Slaanesh - It's bad to hit girls... (ok this is a weak reason..but hey )

Better reason for Slaanesh: S/he just sits there and begs for them to hit em, because s/he's into that sort of thing.

I'm not so sure on Gork and Mork. I would like to see Khorne v Gork and Tzeentch v Mork, as they seem to be focused on the same things. Strength, martial prowess for Gork and Khorne, and trickery and deception for Mork and Tzeentch

Gork & Mork but i wish there was more fluff about them and whether there actually present in the universe

Gork and Mork personify orky traits -- just like the Orks say about themselves, the Orks say Gork and Morak are never defeated. But even if they're never defeated, they don't seem to do much. It's like me saying I've never been beaten in a game of horse by Kobe.

 Ronin wrote:
Gork and Mork. The only real question, who's stronger between the two?

Neither, they represent the stalemate that prevents the Orks from ever uniting and taking over the galaxy.

If I understand the fluff correctly, that all emotions by life forms actually manifest in the warp, then surely, all of the Gods proper are pretty nails, but it is surely pretty easy to figure out who the toughest is with common sense right?

Like, there will be heaps of rage and lust and excess and plotting and planning, so obviously Khorne and Slaanesh, Tzeentch will be tough thanks to the trillions of sentient creatures that "feed" them. Nurgle, maybe a shade less than the rest? I don't think there is as much pestilence as there is of things wanting to stab/shag each other.

But surely, if Orks outnumber humans, and there are trillions of humans. Gork and Mork must be the toughest... not just because of the sheer numbers, but also because they are so one dimensional! Think of it, human actions top the Gods up.. a murder tops Khorne up, lust tops Slaanesh up, plotting tops Tzeentch up etc.. but humans have a great many positive traits as well.. Things that don't power the Gods up.. stuff like love, friendship, honour and honesty and such.

But the simple fact that Orks are really stupid/one dimensional, means that their Gods must be getting heaps of juice pretty much all the time right?

The Chaos Gods arn't just gods of negative emotions. They embody positive emotions as well.

Its just that negative emotions are more common then positive emotions.

Tzeentch is the god of Hope.

Nurgle is the god of fatherly caring and is genuinely a nice guy.

Slannesh is the persuit of perfection in all things.

Khorne is the god of martial prowess and honor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Chaos Gods arn't just gods of negative emotions. They embody positive emotions as well.

Its just that negative emotions are more common then positive emotions.

Tzeentch is the god of Hope.

Nurgle is the god of fatherly caring and is genuinely a nice guy.

Slannesh is the persuit of perfection in all things.

Khorne is the god of martial prowess and honor.

It isn't that they're gods of negative emotions, but they're nonetheless gods of evil. Similar to a faustian deal or "be careful what you wish for" story, the Gods of Chaos will spin positive emotions into something you may not like very much. Trying to achieve perfection, something that is impossible, will drive one insane like Fulgrim. "Grandfather Nurgle" shows his care for you by giving you hideous mutations. Tzeentch's "hope" and ambition may have you climb high places but you'll just end up caught in his convoluted schemes. Khorne's martial prowess will doom you to a life of never-ending war and slaughter.

Lots of people look to Chaos out of despair or not blatantly evil intent, but they still end up doing evil deeds anyway (Quixos comes to mind, even Horus or Magnus). It's a slippery slope. This is why they are the Ruinous Powers, they will ruin you, even if you have positive intentions.

Of course. They arn't nice gods, they are evil, but they are fed on positive emotions.

And I would wager that if positive emotions eclipsed negative ones the chaos gods would have a 180 degree change in their personalities.

Of course the Evil they have amassed basically keeps that from happening because of their constant medelling.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course. They arn't nice gods, they are evil, but they are fed on positive emotions.

And I would wager that if positive emotions eclipsed negative ones the chaos gods would have a 180 degree change in their personalities.

Of course the Evil they have amassed basically keeps that from happening because of their constant medelling.

But was this always the case though, or is this the way they are now, after the Emperor started his conquest of the Galaxy and forced their hand? Like in Monsters Inc, they tried things differently after they found a better way of doing stuff.

The Laer, the Nurthene, the Davinites, the original Cadians, all Chaos Worshippers that, despite some unhealthy pastimes, had established cultures that seemed to not be built around the existing nature of the Chaos Gods, long before the forces of the Emperor got to these worlds.

They may seem to be inane because at the time the Crusade's members weren't aware of the existance of Chaos. So they really wouldn't have seen some things for what they truly were.

Where they would see primative religious fetishes that mean nothing, a person of the 41st millenium would see a plethora of Chaos icons.

Their dismissal of anything super natural blinded them to what they were encountering.


And all the books are done from the perspective of the Crusade's members, so the point of view would be very different to characters from post heresy time periods.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They may seem to be inane because at the time the Crusade's members weren't aware of the existance of Chaos. So they really wouldn't have seen some things for what they truly were.

Where they would see primative religious fetishes that mean nothing, a person of the 41st millenium would see a plethora of Chaos icons.

Their dismissal of anything super natural blinded them to what they were encountering.


And all the books are done from the perspective of the Crusade's members, so the point of view would be very different to characters from post heresy time periods.

And the Crusade crushed them because they had other beliefs, in most cases at least. The whole concept of warrior lodges came from the Davinites, so regardless of whether they were aware of Chaos or not, they still took note of certain aspects of these cultures.

I don't think having the forces of the Crusade unaware of Chaos wouldn't make the already established Chaos Worlds less aware of it. The world where the Imposter Emperor was killed had elements of Chaos Worship as did the Istvaanians. There's a far bit of evidence that suggests that there were Chaos Cultures established until the Imperium came along and replaced these.

I'm not saying those worlds were less aware of Chaos. Its the crusade(who'se eyes we are seeing things through) that doesn't see what is really there.


The indiginious Cadians would have clearly been a corrupted world in the eyes of an Inquisitor or a Space Marine from the 32nd millenium and onward. But during the crusade they would have just appeared to be superstitious natives and nothing more.

There is no difference in what is being seen, but there is a difference is its interpertation by the viewers.

Chaos wasn't any less Chaosy during the Crusade. Its cultists weren't any more civilized.

It dont matter cause the Void dragon will just kill all the gods but hes just to tired from all the sleeping he has done and hasnt got around to it yet

 Grey Templar wrote:

Chaos wasn't any less Chaosy during the Crusade. Its cultists weren't any more civilized.

I would maybe disagree with you.

There do not appear to be many Chaos established worlds with regular (?) populations in 40k do there? Sure, there are plenty of Daemon Worlds, but nothing to suggest a stable Chaos worshipping populace.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course. They arn't nice gods, they are evil, but they are fed on positive emotions.

And I would wager that if positive emotions eclipsed negative ones the chaos gods would have a 180 degree change in their personalities.

Of course the Evil they have amassed basically keeps that from happening because of their constant medelling.

But are they evil, or do they simply have no idea of what evil and good are, and how mortals understand them? I mean, it's been said a lot by GW that the gods either don't understand the inhabitants of realspace on any level or that they simply have no interest in understanding them. Not to mention that if there's enough of it, even positive emotion starts to get creepy. Say the entire universe gives up self indulgence and debauchery, and concentrated on limited perfectionism instead. Slaanesh would just end up being the god of OCD and have no problem with sending daemons to rip apart those who don't live up to its new standards. And these beings are orders of magnitude larger than the humans and other species of 40k, existing in a completely different dimension. It's like comparing germs to us. No one thinks its evil that we experiment with bacteria, wiping out species that are harmful to us like the gods ensured the death of the Emperor with Horus the antibiotic.

Well, they arn't evil from their perspective. Of course each Chaos God percieves his brothers as evil(as in bad) rivals in the quest for diminance.


To the inhabitants of realspace, sure they are evil. Assuming you think something that is trying to utterly alter realspace in a way that doesn't benifit anyone living there is bad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, they arn't evil from their perspective. Of course each Chaos God percieves his brothers as evil(as in bad) rivals in the quest for diminance.


To the inhabitants of realspace, sure they are evil. Assuming you think something that is trying to utterly alter realspace in a way that doesn't benifit anyone living there is bad.

That might be their objective now, but I don't think this was always the case. Basically, did the Gods really care how you were worshipping them, or just that you were. As long as they were appeased would there be any need to send around the Daemonettes or was Slaanesh just happy playing with its many nipples whilst you said its name 100 times a day.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Assuming you think something that is trying to utterly alter realspace in a way that doesn't benifit anyone living there is bad.

That essentially applies to any race in the setting, possibly excepting the Tau.

Yes though, I do see your point. Though Khorne and Slaanesh are probably pretty happy with the way things are. Remember that most of what is done in Chaos' name is done by the gods worshippers, not by the gods themselves. The gods just reward those that give them more ammo to spend in the great game.

The only reason the Emporer didn't defeat Chaos is that he didn't have the trillions of imperial citizens worshiping him at the time of the HH, however I also think that Chaos Gods were weakened by trillions of people beliving that there were no gods.
If the Emporer werent using his energy to keep himself from dying and guiding the Astronomicon, I could see him easily being the most powerful with the backing of the faith of the Imperium in general.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Khorne would honestly crush them all.

Here is an excerpt from the codex entry for Skarbrand:

Skarbrand took up his axe and struck a blow against the Blood God

Though powerful enough to have felled an army, Skarbrand's strike only opened a small chink in the armor of the Blood God

Seriously? A mere daemon prince punched him and it chipped his armor? What an effing wuss that khorne emo-kid is.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

Upon a throne of brass, Khorne sits atop a mountainous dias made of the skulls of his champions and their defeated opponents. Beside him rests a great two-handed sword, capable of laying waste to worlds with a single blow.

He would breathe and everyone would fall down. Simple as that

LOL!!! You think "A single blow" means he "blows" on people?

IIRC Skarbrand isn't a Daemon Prince. Those are wussy mortals with daemonic buffs.

Skarbrand was a fething powerful Bloodthirster if i remember my Daemons codex right. Powerful enough to survive being smacked down by Khorne for his presumption, when Khorne can level a world with a blow. He attacked Khorne all-out with his axes, not a b-slap. The B-slap happened to him in reprisal

What's left of him isn't near as uber, but he's still here

 Ascalam wrote:
IIRC Skarbrand isn't a Daemon Prince. Those are wussy mortals with daemonic buffs.

Skarbrand was a fething powerful Bloodthirster if i remember my Daemons codex right. Powerful enough to survive being smacked down by Khorne for his presumption, when Khorne can level a world with a blow. He attacked Khorne all-out with his axes, not a b-slap.

Still. A God. Skarbrand shouldn't even have gotten close. Khorne is still an emo-kid who cuts his wrists to get the attention of his betters. (and by betters, I mean everyone. Chaos is a bunch of childish little babies with a chip on their shoulder because the Emperor stole their spotlight.)

That's why they're having fun in the Warp and the Emperor is stuck on the world's biggest iron lung, right?

Chaos won the Horus Heresy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's why they're having fun in the Warp and the Emperor is stuck on the world's biggest iron lung, right?

Chaos won the Horus Heresy.

No they didn't. Their plan was to enslave the entire human race.

No it wasn't, there plan was to take out the greatest threat to their power (Which they did, now the best he can manage is struggling to keep Chaos from flooding the galaxy), and to reassert themselves as the dominant active force in the galaxy.

Chaos incursions into realspace only keep on increasing, every action the Imperium commits is driven by their struggle against Chaos, the Imperium are fighting a hopeless war, and Chaos knows it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No it wasn't, there plan was to take out the greatest threat to their power (Which they did, now the best he can manage is struggling to keep Chaos from flooding the galaxy), and to reassert themselves as the dominant active force in the galaxy.

Chaos incursions into realspace only keep on increasing, every action the Imperium commits is driven by their struggle against Chaos, the Imperium are fighting a hopeless war, and Chaos knows it.

It's hopeless only because they're also fighting the Elves, Dark Elves, Orks, Tau, Tyranids and Necron, AS WELL AS chaos.

Evil for the sake of Evil is inherently childish.

Gork and Mork would have stomped on everyone, if that hadn't meant the orks didn't have anyone else to fight.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
It's hopeless only because they're also fighting the Elves, Dark Elves, Orks, Tau, Tyranids and Necron, AS WELL AS chaos.

Every race is an enemy to Chaos at any time, Chaos is the greatest current threat to the Imperium, largely due to being a darker reflection of humanity, and life itself. This is a consistent fact of the setting, no matter what you may think.

Evil for the sake of Evil is inherently childish.

Do you have a point here, or are you just venting?

The original motivations for any given Chaos cultist can vary wildly.

Also, the Chaos Gods themselves are not necessarily "evil for the sake of evil". Tzeentch is change, be it moral change or immoral change is irrelevant, just that there is change. Nurgle sees the universe through a twisted lens, he genuinely loves life, all life, and delivers his horrifying plagues as a gift. Khorne is pretty childish these days, sadly, being a big fat kid who would be just as happy with you killing a grox as he would be happy with you killing an enemy warrior. Slaanesh is Slaanesh.

Gork and Mork would have stomped on everyone, if that hadn't meant the orks didn't have anyone else to fight.

Too bad they're too fat and lazy to do anything.

I said "active" force.