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 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.

You're using logic that applies to normal people like you and me to a demigod. You'd think a being of such unimaginable power like the Emperor would be able to overcome emo bullsh*t like that.

And it's not as clear cut as having reservations about killing one of your sons.

You either:

A: try to redeem one person you have a personal attachment to risking the lives of every other human in existence.

Or

B: kill him straight out ensuring the future of mankind.

With stakes this high at risk such a choice should be rather simple for a being as wise and powerful as the Emperor.

So yeah, I remain unconvinced, in my eyes he's spineless weakling who should take a page out of the Krieg corps's book.

Then again I am a drama-wh*re so I suppose I like this version too.

 Popenfresh wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.

You're using logic that applies to normal people like you and me to a demigod. You'd think a being of such unimaginable power like the Emperor would be able to overcome emo bullsh*t like that.

And it's not as clear cut as having reservations about killing one of your sons.

You either:

A: try to redeem one person you have a personal attachment to risking the lives of every other human in existence.

Or

B: kill him straight out ensuring the future of mankind.

With stakes this high at risk such a choice should be rather simple for a being as wise and powerful as the Emperor.

So yeah, I remain unconvinced, in my eyes he's spineless weakling who should take a page out of the Krieg corps's book.

Then again I am a drama-wh*re so I suppose I like this version too.

Watch the language please.
Reds8n
And if the emperor is a spineless weakling, what does that say about Chaos who are not able to kill him?

 SgtSixkilla wrote:

And if the emperor is a spineless weakling, what does that say about Chaos who are not able to kill him?

Horus was busy killing billions of people, was after Empy's life and he was stilling willing to sway him over? If he didn't realise Horus was beyond redemption at this point it's just an other sign of his incredible idiocy. The more I think about it the more pants-on-head-ret*rded Empy looks. If you found out your son is a psychopathic murderer you'd rather try to talk him out of it through a cosy father-son discussion instead of calling the authorities? It appears you're the one with the upside down values here. There are other values out there besides family bonds ya know.

So yeah, for someone who's the closest thing we have to an omnipotent God yeah he comes off as very spineless. The IoM has plenty of heroes who didn't let their emotional attachments get in the way of what needed to be done and they did so when there was far less at stake.

As to the powers of chaos, I'm talking about strength of character here not physical strength. I though that was pretty damn obvious from the start. Now that I think of it, Chaos did a bang up job, they didn't even need to be more powerful than him in order to eff Empy up. This just shows that physical strength/power means nothing if you're too dumb/spineless to get the job done.

I honestly don't understand how you can defend his indecisiveness.

 Popenfresh wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Funny, I thought it was just a father expressing his inability that his favorite son had become an irredeemable monster. And like a good father he tried to struggle against the demons that compelled his son knowing it was probably futile to see if he could pull his jewel of the primarchs away from the Gods of Chaos... or you can just think he's a Derpucles i suppose. Because their is a difference between killing a man you like and killing one of your own sons.

You're using logic that applies to normal people like you and me to a demigod. You'd think a being of such unimaginable power like the Emperor would be able to overcome emo bullsh*t like that.

And it's not as clear cut as having reservations about killing one of your sons.

You either:

A: try to redeem one person you have a personal attachment to risking the lives of every other human in existence.

Or

B: kill him straight out ensuring the future of mankind.

With stakes this high at risk such a choice should be rather simple for a being as wise and powerful as the Emperor.

So yeah, I remain unconvinced, in my eyes he's spineless weakling who should take a page out of the Krieg corps's book.

Then again I am a drama-wh*re so I suppose I like this version too.

Hmmm see i think you don't realize how much emotion pans into the situation. The Horus Heresy is suppose to be a analogy of what blind faith and listening to outside influences wroughts upon us all. The Once loyal chapters of space marines are clearly an annotative link towards military powers once proud and trusted by their empires turned to just a slightly lesser authority to indulge impulses that are gratifying to them. For example the urge to kill, to have sex, to plot to kill or to smother the fear of death (i used an example for every chaos god there).

Horus represents corruption of the system, someone who should have been the strongest guarded against such forces, Sadly we know the tale that one bad apple ruins the bunch. HOWEVER, emotion does play into the Horus heresy because when your empire is falling apart you are far from collected, when your own soliders have spent a solid week bombarding your golden throne with titans to make a crack large enough to properly invade you are no longer are thinking about the future of the human race. To you the battle is on your doorstep and you are trapped upon your very fortress world unable to escape due to the tricks of your own soldiers yet again.

The point of all of this is your A or B situation ONLY applies to a cold and rational soul who isn't wielding the powers of a god. You say that power will make you more composed and able to make decisions for the greater good easier than oppose to being weak. I actually disagree vehemently here. Look to all historical positions of power, have you known one which hasn't given into temptations or madness in some form? the United State military just had a high scale military general admit to extramarital affairs in our current "logical thinking" military.

too often we forget that man is an animal and despite the power and majesty of an animal or the size of it's race it no longer is not capable of absolute perfection in all things or in any respect for that matter. A judge can cry or make mistakes, a Police officer can arrest the wrong person, and religious advisers can condemn those they resemble. Emotion is something we cannot suppress forever, it is often references that the Emperor sought out his primarchs like a Father would for his lost sons. To him, these primarchs are 100% his children born from his geneseed and to see so many of his sons fall to madness and worst yet his best and brightest leading them against him, he was convinced till confronting his son Horus that this was a threat that could be dealt with... until Horus killed Sangunis.

His only hope was that in all his infinite power he could defy EXACTLY what you are shouting, that he viewed himself as capable of saving Horus rather than doing exactly what Chaos wanted. His critical error was thinking Horus was the same as he was rather than his own equal, and for the arrogance of his own power and his ignorance of the situation he is left now as the corpse god of the IOM.

You say that power means you better able to make the ciritcal decisions; I contend that with greater power comes even more temptation to make the wrong acts. My references are history such as the royal families of the middle ages wanting to succumb to incest, generals turning against their kings, Nixon and watergate or honestly any person of power scrutinized hard enough. No person walks the path of power without the desire to use it as they see fit, now if they are caught abusing such power is up to the awareness of others, but i never found what the emperor did to be spineless or foolish... in fact it is this sutble and sour note that he ends on which highlights the Horus heresy as being so traumatic to the fluff of 40k.

Horus may have had power, he may have had legions and he was going in for the kill like a rabid dog. But the Emperor, he just wanted to save his sons from the hell they were constructing for themselves. it was only when his final moments before he became inert he found the stomach to end his son. Horus had power but even though the Emperor proved stronger he had something Horus didn't Humanity, while the servants of chaos on this Forum will say that is why he was weak I will further contend that he proved the greater fighter in that regard.

A heart strong enough to reach out through the impossible for the smallest hope to bring back the most corrupted while Naive is a testament to the confidence the Emperor held in his own abilities. Showing the self restraint to not strike down your own son despite his lack of such compassion. Ultimately every player who praises Chaos as having a masterful plan just gets a chuckle out of me, for the Emperor realized Chaos found his weakness; the love he held for his sons. Rather than hide it he accepted that fact and tried to transform it into strength. He may have failed to do so, but he tried all the same.

In the end I would rather think of the Emperor trying to grasp for the Impossible rather than making calculated calls even with his own family; this quality will make him forever human in my mind. For a simple way to think of it is that if the Emperor was capable of the feats he did then he represents the analogy for an innocent enlightened human of great power. In the end, isn't that exactly what most people consider a god? I never really thought of the emperor as a true god because personally... none of the deities in 40k proper resemble my imagination of a god because their will is too constant in the fluff and their followers populated everywhere.

*shrug*

short version

A: At the time the emperor had no idea Horus could actually hurt him in such a way. Even then the Emperor conditioned warriors and he may have been strong but her never adhered to the same principles or indoctrination. This choice shouldn't come so easy to a morally sound man who trusts Horus as his greatest son. So you sound like you're teenaged or a little older to me in other words lacking a kid to empathize with the tragedy

B: Killing him straight out assumes killing Horus would even change the flow of battle against the unknowable demon hordes of chaos, So why risk tackling the unknown when you can strive for the unlikely instead? Also the Emperor didn't represent the entirety of IOM if he died and chaos was victorious humanity would still exists it just would no longer be powerful. So the Eldar more or less.

Ultimately I think you are trying to make the decision too black and white, and it would be awful writing to have the emperor turn all sociopath on his own children for no reason.

also, as far as the murderous son situation. I would try to talk to them first I would say they aren't healthy but they are mine and I am willing to set things right hell i might even cover for them if they had good enough reasons Family> World sometimes man, now in the scale of 40k? considering the Emperor wasn't even sure who was leading the hordes till they arrived at his throne i would say it was a safe bet the Emperor was still shaking with confusion and betrayal clarified

Good read Wurrzog, not to mention interesting.

I'll try to shed my opinion on a couple of your core arguments.

I never quite said that power grants you better judgement or composure. But having lived amongst humans for several millennia sure does. As I've mentioned, the Emperor has been meddling with humanity's major affairs since even before the Bronze Age. Don't you think he's had emotional bonds with any of the countless people he's had contact with since his emergence? He's had a myriad of children, many of whom I'm sure died too. Don't you think he's already seen the worse humanity has to offer twice over already? He's seen and has probably been, in some way, involved in every genocide humanity has ever faced. I find it extremely unlikely that the HH would suddenly catch him off guard of humanity's worst assets or Chaos's deceptiveness and malevolence.

It's also pretty weird you claim Empy wanted to save his sons from a self constructed hell, yet he made them so he could throw them at the universe's worst baddies. Seems kinda conflicting. Let's not forget why the Emperor created the Primarchs in the 1st place, they were supposed to be weapons. He didn't create them for the same reasons a couple of parents decide to conceive a child. They were supposed to be weaponized from the start. Sure, you can say facing life and death situations might strengthen your bond with someone, but it's not the kind of relationship a father has with a "legit" son. I still don't buy into the father-son thing.

NEVERTHELESS, I found your interpretation concerning Empy's decision to act in accordance with his weaknesses, in spite of knowing full well it was exactly what Chaos wanted, rather than suppress or deny said weaknesses very touching and inspiring indeed. The idea that someone suffers such a cruel fate resulting from benevolence rather than cold resolve is very tragic indeed and is certainly fitting of 40k's grimdarkness.

See that people, how a well tough out and well worded argument can sway even the most thickheaded of cynics out there? Let that be a lesson to all of you.

Thanks and best regards Wurrzog.

 Popenfresh wrote:
Good read Wurrzog, not to mention interesting.

I'll try to shed my opinion on a couple of your core arguments.

I never quite said that power grants you better judgement or composure. But having lived amongst humans for several millennia sure does. As I've mentioned, the Emperor has been meddling with humanity's major affairs since even before the Bronze Age. Don't you think he's had emotional bonds with any of the countless people he's had contact with since his emergence? He's had a myriad of children, many of whom I'm sure died too. Don't you think he's already seen the worse humanity has to offer twice over already? He's seen and has probably been, in some way, involved in every genocide humanity has ever faced. I find it extremely unlikely that the HH would suddenly catch him off guard of humanity's worst assets or Chaos's deceptiveness and malevolence.

It's also pretty weird you claim Empy wanted to save his sons from a self constructed hell, yet he made them so he could throw them at the universe's worst baddies. Seems kinda conflicting. Let's not forget why the Emperor created the Primarchs in the 1st place, they were supposed to be weapons. He didn't create them for the same reasons a couple of parents decide to conceive a child. They were supposed to be weaponized from the start. Sure, you can say facing life and death situations might strengthen your bond with someone, but it's not the kind of relationship a father has with a "legit" son. I still don't buy into the father-son thing.

NEVERTHELESS, I found your interpretation concerning Empy's decision to act in accordance with his weaknesses, in spite of knowing full well it was exactly what Chaos wanted, rather than suppress or deny said weaknesses very touching and inspiring indeed. The idea that someone suffers such a cruel fate resulting from benevolence rather than cold resolve is very tragic indeed and is certainly fitting of 40k's grimdarkness.

See that people, how a well tough out and well worded argument can sway even the most thickheaded of cynics out there? Let that be a lesson to all of you.

Thanks and best regards Wurrzog.

anytime you pink skinned humie.

What if... what if...

Ghazhgull is an... avatar of Gork.

What if... The BEAST was an avatar of Gork?

You may not know about the beast, as he is very discriminate. As far as I know, there has been 1 sentence about him, in the 6th ED Rulebook. It says he nearly over-ran the galaxy.

You mean this guy?

The Beast was one of the most powerful Ork Warbosses to have ever lived. In 544.M32 he united much of the Ork race and nearly succeeded in conquering the Galaxy.[1b] His Waaagh! was the largest the Galaxy has ever seen and rampaged across the Imperium, eclipsing even the one Horus defeated during the Ullanor Crusade which earned him the title of Warmaster. The Imperium only halted his advance at great cost and desperate measure, devastating the Adeptus Astartes

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You mean this guy?

The Beast was one of the most powerful Ork Warbosses to have ever lived. In 544.M32 he united much of the Ork race and nearly succeeded in conquering the Galaxy.[1b] His Waaagh! was the largest the Galaxy has ever seen and rampaged across the Imperium, eclipsing even the one Horus defeated during the Ullanor Crusade which earned him the title of Warmaster. The Imperium only halted his advance at great cost and desperate measure, devastating the Adeptus Astartes

he does, and the beast isn't an avatar of gork because the universe is still standing :p

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

he does, and the beast isn't an avatar of gork because the universe is still standing :p

At least it's slouching weakly.

Agreeing with big mek on this one

Well, when have mork and gork ever manifested their powers?The gods of chaos feed off ALL emotion, so even as mork and gork gain power, so does chaos, therefore making khorne bmore powerful. That said this is a battle of religions, because Ork fans will always say M&G will win, and chaos will always say chaos will win.. Also the c'tan aren't gods, but all powerful entities that feed on energy (they literally ate stars for breakfast) they weren't destroyed by blackstone fortresses, merely shattered, and blackstone fortresses were eldar weapons for killing gods right? Also the most powerful c'tan, the Void dragon, wasn't even taking part, he is just napping on mars. So basically the psychic gods will all be beaten by the void dragon because it is completely indestructible, and could set about killing every one of the races supplying the power of the gods of chaos and . With nothing left to supply the power to the various gods the void dragon would reign supreme, travel to the warp, tea bag all the various gods and then reap them into tiny little chunks of wary goodness. End of story

Edit: Big Mek Wurrzog it is clearly stated in the old chaos codex or the old rulebook (I can't remember which) that some represses shred of Horus' humanity stopped him from killing the emperor, and at that moment the emperor struck, tearing apart Horus' body even as he did his soul. Seems to me that the one with humanity was Horus. He killed for personal benefit because he could. But in the end he couldn't do it and let the emperor kill him, because that was the right thing.

Nemesor wrote:
Well, when have mork and gork ever manifested their powers?The gods of chaos feed off ALL emotion, so even as mork and gork gain power, so does chaos, therefore making khorne bmore powerful. That said this is a battle of religions, because Ork fans will always say M&G will win, and chaos will always say chaos will win.

It's explictedly stated that Gork and Mork are more powerful than the Chaos Gods. The Orks have vastly more numerous than any other species that would feed the Chaos Gods (the Orks themselves don't seem to, aside from when they're attacking humans and the like (i.e., the affect they have on others may feed the Chaos Gods, but their own emotions don't)).

Also the c'tan aren't gods, but all powerful entities that feed on energy (they literally ate stars for breakfast) they weren't destroyed by blackstone fortresses, merely shattered, and blackstone fortresses were eldar weapons for killing gods right?

Nope. They're not all powerful, and in the recent background the majority were shattered by the Necrons after the defeat of the Old Ones.

Also the most powerful c'tan, the Void dragon, wasn't even taking part, he is just napping on mars.

Why'd he go to Mars? Because he (or at least a shard of him) was driven to Earth and then the Emperor imprisoned him on Mars. That's not a sign of his power, it's a sign of him being weaker than his foes.

Also, the C'Tan were god-like. Before they were shattered they basically had powers greater than that of the chaos gods.

In their current shattered form, there near to that of the greater daemons.

Or the Avatar of Khaine, which is in a similar boat,

Shattered remnants of a god-level being.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Chaos gods do not have client races. They are the embodiment of emotion. All of that rage, war, and hate that the orks produce feed khorne. Same with all other war and rage and hate and blood. It's not just a specific race that represents the chaos gods

Orks don't produce hate. anger or rage their culture has no angst or stress. When ork charges to battle he doesn't feel hatred towards his foes, he feels happy because he gets to fight something.

Slaanesh has no sway on orks because Slaanesh is the god of excess and you can never have nuff DAKKA.

Do you know many orks have died to disease? As far as I know the number is around 0.

Lord of Change vs "war never changes" . How did that famous ork quote go? Something about "Ork are made fer two fings..."

I thought you had to dedicate yourself to the Chaos gods for your actions to affect them. Nothing else makes sense based on everything I've read about it. If all emotion fed them, they would have been the only beings in the warp, which they're not. In fact, they'd BE the warp. There are literally countless lesser beings in the warp, who has nothing to do with the chaos gods.

No, the chaos gods are nothing as powerful as they want you to believe. Tzeench, for example, reminds me of that kid who just does a lot of random crap, and whenever something happens which is beneficial to the kid, he goes "I meant for that to happen!". No you didn't, you imbecile.

Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it

willhman wrote:
Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it

After 5 pages, I'd assumed someone had brought up Gork and Mork. But if not, this guy is dead on.

Nothing in the warp even comes close to Gork and Mork in potency.

Adeptus Titanicus has the Emperor shocked with fear when Gork and Mork start stirring within the Warp.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Also, the C'Tan were god-like. Before they were shattered they basically had powers greater than that of the chaos gods.

Sure, in the Materium they had more power. They have less in the Immaterium. That said, we've never heard of the Ruinous Powers or any other 'god' of the Warp being 'killed' by anything other than another 'god'. The C'tan were capable of being destroyed (although only one was) by the Necrons. They're in a position to have more of an effect but they're also more vulnerable because of that.

In their current shattered form, there near to that of the greater daemons.

Ascalam wrote:Or the Avatar of Khaine, which is in a similar boat,

I don't know, the powers of even the C'tan shards (admittedly their power level varies massively, much like that of Greater Daemons) seem to be beyond that of Greater Daemons and certainly have more impressive feats than what I've heard of Avatars doing. That said, the problem with Greater Daemons and Avatars alike is that they generally don't seem to have as big an impact as you'd expect except in a single battle. They should be capable of turning the tides of wars but the Avatar and many Greater Daemons just seem to smash stuff up like, well, an Ork does but bigger and tougher.

Is it ever said what happens to a C'tan shard if it's destroyed?

Doesn't help that Ward is fond of having Avatars chump-slapped to make his marines look good.

Avatars are still the shattered remnants of a god. They are about on power-level with Ctan shards and Greater Daemons IMO.

Part of the problem is that the Avatar's don't get much fluff-time. The codex is ancient, and no-one is writing any new Eldar fluff unless they are using it to make their new-codex beasties look good.

One older but awesome story had the Avatar breaking a greater daemon of Slaanesh over his knee like a dry twig

Yep, Avatars C'Tan Shards and Greater Daemons are all on the same level.

2 are shatted remenats of a God or of God-Level Beings (Avatar and C'Tan) and the other are minions of God-Level beings, with powers to a lesser degree of the diety they are of.

The Avatars of Khaine all seem to be of comparable favour. The power of Greater Daemons varies, not only from Daemon to Daemon but just in terms of how much Warp energy there is for them to use. Avatars again, seem to have a consistent power level. The number of shards each C'tan is split up to, which would presumably affect their power, is unknown. Also, C'tan shards can unite. Avatars and Greater Daemons can't (or won't). Lesser C'tan shards may well be weaker or on level with Avatars of Khaine, but they will not all be of a comparable level.

I'd also argue that due to their powers not relying primarily on simply hitting things, C'tan shards would find say, fighting a certain Chapter Master easier than an Avatar of Khaine would.

SgtSixkilla wrote:I thought you had to dedicate yourself to the Chaos gods for your actions to affect them. Nothing else makes sense based on everything I've read about it. If all emotion fed them, they would have been the only beings in the warp, which they're not. In fact, they'd BE the warp. There are literally countless lesser beings in the warp, who has nothing to do with the chaos gods.

If emotion had to be dedicated to the Chaos gods to power them, they'd never have existed in the first place. They get some power from any emotion that falls into their category, they just get more if it's part of a ritual or dedicated specifically to them.

No, the chaos gods are nothing as powerful as they want you to believe. Tzeench, for example, reminds me of that kid who just does a lot of random crap, and whenever something happens which is beneficial to the kid, he goes "I meant for that to happen!". No you didn't, you imbecile.

No one has any idea how strong the gods are, because they never intervene directly in the galaxy. The majority of their power is directed against each other, with a tiny portion dedicated to making daemons or blessing their champions. And since Tzeentch has a near infinite number of plans, almost any conceivable action benefits one of them, so he can say the he planned for it to happen.

willhman wrote:Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it

Slaanesh defeated and absorbed all but three of the Eldar gods when it was created, and of those it shattered one, the second was taken prisoner by Nurgle and the third hides from Slaanesh in the Webway. So that's reasonably powerful. And Khorne has been said to be stronger than Slaanesh. I've always been curious about that bit about Gork and Mork as well. Does it say which gods, and was it a long battle or just someone throwing a punch at them?

 Durza wrote:

willhman wrote:Stated in the ork codex that the Gork and Mork take hits from other gods and laugh it off like its nothing. Tell me where it says that Khorne or Nurgle or even Slaanesh can take a hit from another god and laugh it of or that the hit does nothing to them. It probably wont say it

Slaanesh defeated and absorbed all but three of the Eldar gods when it was created, and of those it shattered one, the second was taken prisoner by Nurgle and the third hides from Slaanesh in the Webway. So that's reasonably powerful. And Khorne has been said to be stronger than Slaanesh. I've always been curious about that bit about Gork and Mork as well. Does it say which gods, and was it a long battle or just someone throwing a punch at them?

Considering the only gods that walk the warp unmolested by your own words in the warp are... *ahem* the chaos gods, and that only makes sense that it would be them since all gods tred the warp and no gods now exist save the Emperor, Choas and Gork n Mork that aren't in shattered material forms.

 Durza wrote:

SgtSixkilla wrote:I thought you had to dedicate yourself to the Chaos gods for your actions to affect them. Nothing else makes sense based on everything I've read about it. If all emotion fed them, they would have been the only beings in the warp, which they're not. In fact, they'd BE the warp. There are literally countless lesser beings in the warp, who has nothing to do with the chaos gods.

If emotion had to be dedicated to the Chaos gods to power them, they'd never have existed in the first place.

Yes they could. How did any god in our world appear? Some schmuck made them up. It's just that in our universe, there's no "warp" for the god to exist, so they never materialize. It's fully conceivable (and more reasonable than not, in the context of the 40K universe) that at some point, different civilizations made up the different chaos gods, and then converted/produced enough followers and "belief" in that god, that the god actually materialized in the warp. Kind of like how Slaanesh was created. Actually, there's a hint in there, if you just look at it from the right angle.

Surely you've heard the quasi-philosophical conundrum of the chicken and the egg, right? Which is a stupid thing to wonder at. Without the egg, the chicken can't exist, but eggs have been around for a lot longer than chicken. The chicken is the god, and the egg is the mortals. Gods derive their power from belief, so without belief, a god can't exist, so for a god to exist, someone must believe in him. Thus, someone had to create a god to believe in, and then start believing in him, in order for him to exist.

 Durza wrote:

No, the chaos gods are nothing as powerful as they want you to believe. Tzeench, for example, reminds me of that kid who just does a lot of random crap, and whenever something happens which is beneficial to the kid, he goes "I meant for that to happen!". No you didn't, you imbecile.

No one has any idea how strong the gods are, because they never intervene directly in the galaxy. The majority of their power is directed against each other, with a tiny portion dedicated to making daemons or blessing their champions. And since Tzeentch has a near infinite number of plans, almost any conceivable action benefits one of them, so he can say the he planned for it to happen.

That's exactly what I mean. That argument is stupid. I can sit on my couch and say that I have infinite plans set in motion, and then claim that every significant event that happens is part of, or a result of my plans. Doesn't make it true. I bet Tzeench was just neglected as a kid and left in front of the TV a lot.

Im not saying that the chaos gods are weak by any means. But they are not on the same level as Gork and Mork. Its proven Cause not even Khorne can make them back down if they want something. They made the Emperor of Man, the guy who holds all of the daemons from just flooding the galaxy, open his eyes in fear. None of the chaos gods have ever done that before. That shows you just how strong Gork and Mork are, Bringing fear to a being that has never known it.

Gork, or maybe Mork.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Yes they could. How did any god in our world appear? Some schmuck made them up. It's just that in our universe, there's no "warp" for the god to exist, so they never materialize. It's fully conceivable (and more reasonable than not, in the context of the 40K universe) that at some point, different civilizations made up the different chaos gods, and then converted/produced enough followers and "belief" in that god, that the god actually materialized in the warp. Kind of like how Slaanesh was created. Actually, there's a hint in there, if you just look at it from the right angle.

Slaanesh was said to be created by the decadence and depravity of the Eldar, and that they were unaware of it until it devoured most of their souls. And:

Chaos Codex 4th ed wrote:
In the Warp, simillar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water running down a cliff face. They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride... and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of Warpspace. These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the Chaos Gods were born- vast psychic presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals... Eventually, the gods reached into the dreams of mortals to demand their praise and servitude.

No dedication necessary, it happens naturally in the Warp.

Surely you've heard the quasi-philosophical conundrum of the chicken and the egg, right? Which is a stupid thing to wonder at. Without the egg, the chicken can't exist, but eggs have been around for a lot longer than chicken. The chicken is the god, and the egg is the mortals. Gods derive their power from belief, so without belief, a god can't exist, so for a god to exist, someone must believe in him. Thus, someone had to create a god to believe in, and then start believing in him, in order for him to exist.

Depends on which kind of egg you mean. Eggs in general existed long before chickens, but only chickens and other birds produce eggs with shells. And you're incorrect in thinking that the gods of 40k derive their power from belief. They derive their power from the emotion and actions of the races that fall in their domain.

That's exactly what I mean. That argument is stupid. I can sit on my couch and say that I have infinite plans set in motion, and then claim that every significant event that happens is part of, or a result of my plans. Doesn't make it true. I bet Tzeench was just neglected as a kid and left in front of the TV a lot.

Well, since Tzeentch was never a kid and TVs are hard to come by in the Warp, that seems unlikely. And since the omniscient narrator says it's true in Tzeentch's case, that makes it true.