"And low the mightiest of the Imperium's warriors, the great Adeptus Astartes, Angels of Death, Space Marines. Formed into a thousand Chapters, each one a thousand strong."

It is clearly stated in many places that each Chapter is made up of EXACTLY 1000 Space Marines. No more, no less.
But the more I look at the Organisation charts, the Codexes and their background in general, this proves less and less to be true.

I shall explain what I mean.

Yes, each Company is made up of 10 Squads each 10 strong so yes, 100 x 10 is 1000.
But, each Company also has a dedicated Chaplain, a dedicated 5 strong Command Squad and a Captain. That's an extra 7 already; except of course the Scout Company who only have a Captain.
Not to mention that the Scout Company is constantly changing in numbers and in some Chapters has been known to exceed the ten squad limit.

Then you have the Librarian Department.
1 Chief Librarian, 5 Epistolaries, 10 Codiciers and 20 Lexicaniums on average, not to mention potential Lexicaniums. So on average another 36 Marines.

Then there's the Techmarines department.
1-3 Forge Masters, then at least one Techmarine per Company so at least 10. So that's another 11-13 Marines.

Another two to add to the list would be the Chapter Master and the Master of Sanctity.

Then, there are the Dreadnoughts. Every Chapter has at least 1 or so it seems.

Already so far thats 1114-1116 Marines.

THEN there's the Bike Squads (both Marine and Scout) and Land Speeder Squadrons to consider. Do they have dedicated riders and pilots or do certain marines just take up the role in certain circumstances?

I wont mention the vehicles though as its already covered by the fluff that they are driven and piloted by non-space marines. But then the Stormtalon is definately piloted by a Marine according to the model so are they really?

So, 1000 Space Marines per Chapter? I'm not convinced.

Bike Squads and Landspeeder Squads (atleast in the Ultramarines) are generally made up of the 6th/7th Tactical reserve companies, and are deployed in support of the Battle Companies.

It all really depends on if Scouts count as Marines for the purpose of the 1000 strong.

And I doubt they count Dreadnoughts, either, in that count. Dreadnoughts are revered, but not really marines anymore.

You also forgot honor guards. And Nephoytes undergoing the surgical processes. There is always a constant flux of recruits for chapters.

Space Marine Chapters have been estimated by many of us to be around 1,350

Scout companies do not have ten squads, they may have more or less. Matters on the chapter really.

And I agree the chapter must have dedicated drivers.

This has been argued to death many times before.

The consensus that I've seen is the thousand marines specifically is in reference to linemen only and that all chapters are expected to have separate support and command elements. You should also remember the context that the statement was made. The chapters were being pruned down from tens and hundreds of thousands of marines. There was going to be a little over and a little under anyway.

The Honour Guard is the title given to most 1st Company Command Squads as I understand it and not specifically a different unit??

Also, yes I agree actually that Dreadnoughts and Scouts would probably not be included as niether are truely Space Marines yet. Their Captain would be though.

Neophytes/Initiates would not be included as they are no were near being Space Marines yet.

And thank you for clearing up the Bike/Land Speeder issue.

As to the 1350 strong I must admit while designing my own it came to almost 1450 but I wont go into why here.

The Honor Guard are something entirely differant from the First Company.

As I understand it the Ultramarines have an entire company of Honor Guard (most likely not 100 men, but an entirely seperate command organization from the 1st-10th companies).

As noted above, command and support elements don't count. The 1000 marines group is referring specifically to the dedicated combat arm of a chapter.

djones520 wrote:
The Honor Guard are something entirely differant from the First Company.

As I understand it the Ultramarines have an entire company of Honor Guard (most likely not 100 men, but an entirely seperate command organization from the 1st-10th companies).

Actually, the 4th edition Codex mentions that the Ultramarines Honor Guard is dispersed throughout the companies when not formed into squads to protect the Banner of Macragge, at which time the squad will be formed from the members belonging to the company that bears the banner.

Games Workshop Index Astartes wrote:Following the Horus Heresy the Space Marine Legions were divided into Chapters consisting of roughly a thousand warriors. A large section of the Codex Astartes is dedicated to structuring the organisation of these Chapters. A Chapter consists of ten Companies each numbering 100 Space Marines. A Company consists of ten squads of ten men including a Sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting unit, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary.

Every Company with the exception of the Scout Company maintains Rhino transports for their squads and officers. The 1st Company is also equipped with Land Raiders to carry Terminator squads. It is customary for Dreadnoughts to remain with their Company as their fearsome presence bolsters the Company’s fighting strength.

A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the Company organisation. These individuals are known as the Headquarters staff and they may be assigned to fight with a Company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter’s Librarius and Techmarines, together with their Servitors. Although the Codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the Headquarters staff, only a very few of these officers actually accompany the Chapter to war.

[...]

Companies 6 and 7 are Tactical Companies, each consisting of ten Tactical squads. These are intended to act as a reserve and may be used to reinforce the main battle line, launch diversionary attacks or stem enemy flanking moves. The 6th Company is also trained to fight on bikes and the entire Company may be deployed as bike squadrons. Similarly the 7th Company squads are trained to fight from Land Speeders enabling the Company to fight as a light vehicle reserve formation.

There also was something about the 1k limitation being "suspended" for Chapters engaged in prolonged conflict, as they will have to train replacements for battle casualties and the Adeptus Terra agrees that having some Marines more is better than having too few. I can't find the source right now, but there ya go.

The thousand marine limit only applies for the line companies. It doesn't include any marines belonging to support sections.

I did a rough calculation once and it came out to around 1500 marines per chapter, assuming full strength.

Of course no chapter is going to be full strength at all times.

It's more of a keeping to the spirit of the decree. Guilliman didn't care if you were somewhat under or over the limit, he just didn't want any one man able to command something approaching legion level strength.

I personally see it as 1000 basic battle brothers, so excluding the command and support staff etc.

It's roughly 1,000. Most go a little above or below that figure.

A Chapter fields roughly 1,000 Battle Brothers for combat missions plus headquarters, Librarium, Chaplain, and Armoury staff as well as fleet officers.

Perhaps casualties means a marine chapter is usually around 1000?

It definitely depends on the chapter, Dark Angels for example do not follow regular chapter organisation.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Space Marine Chapters have been estimated by many of us to be around 1,350

This.
Also this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Codex Astartes may indicate that the number cannot be past 1,000 but all chapters ( including Ultramarines ) have over 1,000 Astartes.
But giving that many of Chapters are undermanned ( some even have only 100 to 200 Marines ) their number is steadily around 1,000.000.

Chapters tend to be much bigger, these are the numbers of mine without the companies and all that.
Chapter fleet:
2 Battle barges
7 strike cruisers
30 Thunderhawk gunships
2 Thunderhawk Transporters
12 Rapid strike vessels.
Armoury:
27 Tech Marines
98 servitors
21 Predators
4 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
7 Land Raiders
Librarius:
5 Epistolaries
8 Codiciers
12 Lexicanum
4 Acolytum
Apothecaries:
23 Apothecaries
Reclusiam:
11 Chaplains
Logistician:
800 Chapter Equerries and servitors

Thanks Lynata for the extract from the Index Astartes.
I have not got the one which describes how a Chapter is organised (didn't know there was one) so I haven't read it.
Some of the older texts written about the Astartes definately made it clear that a Chapter would have no more than 1000 including Command Staff but I guess the idea has of course been modified over the years.

I agree with Rems01 on the point that I guess it's just a guideline number so that a power mad or over zealous Chapter Master isn't incharge of a Legion sized force anymore.

Cheers to all for clearing up certain points for me.

1000 battle brothers + Chaplains/Librarians/Apothacaries/Tecmarines

Also some chapters are allowed more than 1000 battle brothers because of geneseed purity (lack of mutation from the chapters basic gene-seed) such as the space Wolves who likely have 1300 Battle Brothers. My guess is that with the exception of the Black Templars (Whose loyalty must be incredible, with practically no negative mutation (Dorns successor chapters can't use the Betchers Gland or Sus-An Membrane)) is that no Chapter is allowed more than 2000 battle brothers as an absolute limit but 1000 is the preferred number. This would allow a chapter to keep all neophytes should more than the predicted amount survive the trials. It also seems like all the chapters that have broken the 1000 battle brother guideline without being declared Excomunnicae Traitoris are First or Second Founding chapters meaning their Primarch is known as well as what their Gene-seed should be.

Also, each company does not always have a dedicated 5 man Command Squad. The book "Insignium Astartes" pointed out that a Command Squad is ad hoc. Some Captains may want one, others will make do with a standard bearer only. Those who are in the command squad may be veterans from a line squad who are waiting for a 1st Company vacancy to appear (in effect Tactical Squad III may now only have nine marines but the Captain has a drinking buddy!). As others have stated, each squad may not have ten men due to injuries or deaths so exact numbers may be hard to judge at any one time.

The thing I've posted is for my own chapter ofc, but it is based on the BA one, and it includes all personel, next to marines.
It comes around 2000 marines total.

Most chapters would have less than a thousand anyway, because of losses.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Also this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Unfortunately, that article ignores some rather important bits of GW's fluff on the topic, such as the fact that Captains, Chaplains, Apothecaries, etc are officially not counted to the maximum, as well as the "multi-role" capability of the Astartes in that they can be deployed as infantry as well as vehicle crews (most notably from the Reserve Companies reinforcing the Battle Companies). The author lists the Index Astartes I as part of his research, so I can only assume this was some major oversight.

O'Raatol wrote:Thanks Lynata for the extract from the Index Astartes. I have not got the one which describes how a Chapter is organised (didn't know there was one) so I haven't read it.

That was in Index Astartes I, with the exact section titled "The Codex Astartes" - as all articles in these books have been printed before, it should also be in some White Dwarf, but sadly I cannot give you the issue number.

Agreed about the idea having been modified over the years. I think the writers at GW must have noticed that the numbers did not really add up back then. It seems many of the fans did not "catch up" yet, though (hence threads like these). GW keeps printing the 1k number, and by the point of having read it, the more detailed explanation occasionally given is apparently missed.
For example, I just noticed that half the Codex article from the Index Astartes was reprinted in the 5th edition Codex Space Marines (see page 24, "Chapter Organisation") - don't tell me that so many Marine fans in this thread did not read that book!

(sadly, the 5E Codex version is only a single page and misses out on the fancy charts, but do give it a look anyways; it's a rather interesting read and explains much that has been asked in this thread)

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I agree with Rems01 on the point that I guess it's just a guideline number so that a power mad or over zealous Chapter Master isn't incharge of a Legion sized force anymore.

Yeah, the Index Astartes outright states that the Adeptus Terra rarely sees it necessary to strictly enforce the Codex decrees, anyways. Supposedly, there is only one law that is an iron rule where Terra will not move an inch from their position and insist on it being followed to the letter, and that is regular geneseed scans to check for signs of taint.

amudkipz wrote:Also some chapters are allowed more than 1000 battle brothers because of geneseed purity (lack of mutation from the chapters basic gene-seed) such as the space Wolves who likely have 1300 Battle Brothers. My guess is that with the exception of the Black Templars (Whose loyalty must be incredible, with practically no negative mutation (Dorns successor chapters can't use the Betchers Gland or Sus-An Membrane)) is that no Chapter is allowed more than 2000 battle brothers as an absolute limit but 1000 is the preferred number. This would allow a chapter to keep all neophytes should more than the predicted amount survive the trials. It also seems like all the chapters that have broken the 1000 battle brother guideline without being declared Excomunnicae Traitoris are First or Second Founding chapters meaning their Primarch is known as well as what their Gene-seed should be.

The Black Templars are rumoured to be in excess of 5.000 Space Marines, even - it's just that they are scattered all across the galaxy and nigh-impossible to keep track of, so thanks to how Imperial bureaucracy and Warp travel / communication work, nobody can actually prove it. In addition, there's that exemption rule for Chapters engaged in a prolonged campaign, and the Black Templars could argue that their "eternal crusade" does count as such. Together with their apparent loyalty to the Imperium's cause, I'd say the High Lords and the Inquisition just do not feel too bothered by the reports about their size. This could well change if they ever gather in a single place and visibly display the Chapter's full might - but how likely would that be?
Added to that ... yes, the controlling bodies in the Imperium are indeed more lenient towards famous Chapters with a long and glorious history of service, most notably the loyalist Founding Chapters (including those that split off from the main body during the Second Founding) - this is briefly discussed in the "Rogue Sons" article of the Index Astartes.

Cannot agree regarding the Space Wolves, though - looking at their appearance and propensity to turn into slavering werewolves, their geneseed definitely appears tainted, and this is explicitly stated as such in the aforementioned Index Astartes article. Together with their history of reaction to the various Imperial organisations ... let's face it, the primary reason they are still there at the end of M41 is because they are the Space Wolves, the one big special snowflake exception from half the stuff we know a Space Marine should be.

And again, Space Marines really only work and make sense given a healthy suspension of disbelief and an understanding that 40k is a Fantasy universe not a SciFi one. Space Marines at 1000 chapters of 1000 strong don't work on just about any imaginable level when examined realistically.

I think "roughly a 1000" warriors means just that: maybe more, maybe less? It was a formula devised to de-centralize military power within the Empire following the Heresy and I feel is enforced as more of a dogma than law. Maybe 1000 warriors is all that the supply of gene-seed, alloted to each new Chapter by their parent Legion could support logisticaly for say, the next ten thousand years? It is definately a guideline and must only refer to "active" Line-Marines. Some Chapters, most notably the Black Templars, are in nearly blatant defience of the edict, shuffling their numbers between fleets, fudging their books and dodging imperial auditors for centuries now? It seems difficult to believe only 1000 Ultra Marines can rule the entire Ultramar system? When taking into account the support and staff and neophyte elements, each chapter must be comprised of several thousands of actual "members", not all of whom are Marines, and of which possibly up to a thousand or more could be "recruits" in training... imho?

Ok, assuming all companies(except scout company) have a command squad and 10 10 man squads.


1st-9th companies. 106 marines each = 954 marines

10 company. captain, 10 sergeants, and 90 inititates = 11 marines(initiates don't count)

Chapter Master and Honor Guard. Lets say, 20 honor guard. 21 marines.

Librariam. 5 Epistolaries and 10 Codiciers. 15 marines

Apothecarium. 10 apothecaries.

Reclusium. Reclusiarch and 5 subordiantes. 6 marines


Armory: 10 full techmarines and 20-30 junior techmarines. These pilot the various vehicles the chapter uses.

Fleet: Each ship has at least 1 marine as its captain, plus a squad to engage in boarding actions. so 11 marines per ship. A chapter with 1 battlebarge, 4-5 strike cruisers, and 20-30 escorts. Around 250ish marines.


So, total comes to around 1300

Yes it does seem to more or less be 1,300 give or take, but that sounds far less dramatic and simple for GW then simply one thousand.

Don't forget about losses.. There will likely always be less than 1k in each *normal* chapter because they fight so much.

The sensible math says that a Chapter is closer to 1500 Marines, and the 1000 refers to the line strength of 10 Companies x 100 Marines.


Simple math done on the Ultramarines force organization chart in the 3rd Edition Codex requires just over 400 Marines simply to crew all of the vehicles (not including bikes and land speeders, just tanks, aircraft, etc). Unless they permanently diffuse the Reserve companies (and thus losing 40% of their fighting strength, along with all the "capabilities" those companies are supposed to provide, as well as casualty replacement), there's no way that the Chapter operates with only 1000 Marines. It's also important to note that the TOE for the Ultramarines even seems like it is woefully incomplete for the assets the Chapter should actually have.

This doesn't even begin to take into account the other kinds of ancillaries that would be involved. Though it is possible that "retired" Marines who were no longer combat capable could fill some roles.

The bottom line is this:

The guys who came up with the fluff have no idea how a real world military unit operates, and simply didn't take it into account when they wrote said fluff.

Once you accept that the 1000 refers only to line fighting strength, it becomes less of a problem. Then the Marines who are part of the Armory (vehicle crews, Techmarines, etc) don't count against the number. It's the Obi Wan Kenobi defense. What they told you is true, from a certain point of view.

Ok I got the fact there would be losses the first time it was mentioned.
I was trying to get an idea of people's general concenses on how many there would be if the Chapter were basically at full strength and followed a general pattern.
Including losses would be too random to give an accurate estimate.

So as I take it the general answer is closer to 1250-1500 marines to a chapter than the estimated 1000.

I also did not know that a Command Squad is AdHoc. My Chapter has Command Squads as standard just because I think it only right that a Captain has his own unit.

 O'Raatol wrote:
"And low the mightiest of the Imperium's warriors, the great Adeptus Astartes, Angels of Death, Space Marines. Formed into a thousand Chapters, each one a thousand strong."

It is clearly stated in many places that each Chapter is made up of EXACTLY 1000 Space Marines. No more, no less.
But the more I look at the Organisation charts, the Codexes and their background in general, this proves less and less to be true.

I shall explain what I mean.

Yes, each Company is made up of 10 Squads each 10 strong so yes, 100 x 10 is 1000.
But, each Company also has a dedicated Chaplain, a dedicated 5 strong Command Squad and a Captain. That's an extra 7 already; except of course the Scout Company who only have a Captain.
Not to mention that the Scout Company is constantly changing in numbers and in some Chapters has been known to exceed the ten squad limit.

Then you have the Librarian Department.
1 Chief Librarian, 5 Epistolaries, 10 Codiciers and 20 Lexicaniums on average, not to mention potential Lexicaniums. So on average another 36 Marines.

Then there's the Techmarines department.
1-3 Forge Masters, then at least one Techmarine per Company so at least 10. So that's another 11-13 Marines.

Another two to add to the list would be the Chapter Master and the Master of Sanctity.

Then, there are the Dreadnoughts. Every Chapter has at least 1 or so it seems.

Already so far thats 1114-1116 Marines.

THEN there's the Bike Squads (both Marine and Scout) and Land Speeder Squadrons to consider. Do they have dedicated riders and pilots or do certain marines just take up the role in certain circumstances?

I wont mention the vehicles though as its already covered by the fluff that they are driven and piloted by non-space marines. But then the Stormtalon is definately piloted by a Marine according to the model so are they really?

So, 1000 Space Marines per Chapter? I'm not convinced.

I counted it up based on the chart in the Blood Angels Codex once. They had 1196 Space Marines (including Librarians, Chaplains, veterans, Techmarines, Apothecaries, et cetera), 160-ish Scouts, and thousands of Servitors, assuming that none of their starships or vehicles are crewed by anyone not on the Armory roster as a Techmarine. 'A thousand' is a ballpark estimate used for full pomposity, a full-strength Chapter is more likely to have 1200-1300 Marines.

EDIT: And 26 Dreadnaughts. Forgot to mention them.

Command Squads really are variable.

Fortunately GW has given plenty of wiggle room as far as things go, so each chapter is slightly different.

So in some chapters they are an informal group the Captain will form as needed, in others it will be a formal squad within the Company.

 O'Raatol wrote:
Ok I got the fact there would be losses the first time it was mentioned.
I was trying to get an idea of people's general concenses on how many there would be if the Chapter were basically at full strength and followed a general pattern.
Including losses would be too random to give an accurate estimate.

So as I take it the general answer is closer to 1250-1500 marines to a chapter than the estimated 1000.

I also did not know that a Command Squad is AdHoc. My Chapter has Command Squads as standard just because I think it only right that a Captain has his own unit.

There is nothing wrong with having standard Command Squads if that is what you want your Chapter to have. They are after all YOUR Chapter and Command Squads are an established part of the background and Space Marine game rules.

 Lynata wrote:
The Black Templars are rumoured to be in excess of 5.000 Space Marines, even - it's just that they are scattered all across the galaxy and nigh-impossible to keep track of, so thanks to how Imperial bureaucracy and Warp travel / communication work, nobody can actually prove it. In addition, there's that exemption rule for Chapters engaged in a prolonged campaign, and the Black Templars could argue that their "eternal crusade" does count as such. Together with their apparent loyalty to the Imperium's cause, I'd say the High Lords and the Inquisition just do not feel too bothered by the reports about their size. This could well change if they ever gather in a single place and visibly display the Chapter's full might - but how likely would that be?
Added to that ... yes, the controlling bodies in the Imperium are indeed more lenient towards famous Chapters with a long and glorious history of service, most notably the loyalist Founding Chapters (including those that split off from the main body during the Second Founding) - this is briefly discussed in the "Rogue Sons" article of the Index Astartes.

Cannot agree regarding the Space Wolves, though - looking at their appearance and propensity to turn into slavering werewolves, their geneseed definitely appears tainted, and this is explicitly stated as such in the aforementioned Index Astartes article. Together with their history of reaction to the various Imperial organisations ... let's face it, the primary reason they are still there at the end of M41 is because they are the Space Wolves, the one big special snowflake exception from half the stuff we know a Space Marine should be.

I agree with you Lynata that the Black Templars are one of the most numerous Chapters, what with having five or six crusade fleet spread across the galaxy, each basically a seperate Chapter unto itself. The only instance I can foresee them gathering all as one is at the End of Days when the Emperor returns along with the 'missing' Primarchs for the final battle for the universe. And just in my opinion, that day is drawing ever closer if the reports of how bad things are getting for the Imperium are anything to go by.

Also, yes some Space Wolves may have a tendency to fail to over come the feral part, but it is all due to the Canis Helix which is part of Leman Russ' geneseed and nothing to do with a mutation. Leman Russ himself went through a similar transformation as a child growing up on Fenris.

1000 is a figurative and symbolic number. You couldn't limit it to exactly 1000 as you couldn't then ever induct people save for when you lost a body, which would mean you could never reach 1000 as you couldn't bring people on line fast enough to cope with combat losses.

It isn't really unique either. The Forbidden City in Beijing is said to have 1000 rooms, and it's been counted to like 900 and something rooms. The 1000 is not hard and fast, and isn't misleading, as that is the number they try to meet.

alphaecho wrote:
Also, each company does not always have a dedicated 5 man Command Squad. The book "Insignium Astartes" pointed out that a Command Squad is ad hoc. Some Captains may want one, others will make do with a standard bearer only. Those who are in the command squad may be veterans from a line squad who are waiting for a 1st Company vacancy to appear (in effect Tactical Squad III may now only have nine marines but the Captain has a drinking buddy!). As others have stated, each squad may not have ten men due to injuries or deaths so exact numbers may be hard to judge at any one time.

If most Command Squads are only a two men strong (Apothacary + Standard Bearer) than why are we forced to take five in the Codex? Doesn't seem fair really. Why is that most GW units never match their fluff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
1000 is a figurative and symbolic number. You couldn't limit it to exactly 1000 as you couldn't then ever induct people save for when you lost a body, which would mean you could never reach 1000 as you couldn't bring people on line fast enough to cope with combat losses.

Well thats not exactly true as Neophytes and Scouts aren't considered true Space Marines just yet as we hav established.

That means there are only 2 individuals that are permanately command squad members. The Apothecary and Banner Bearer. The other members have their own squads within the Company and are only part of the command squad when needed.

O'Raatol wrote:
If most Command Squads are only a two men strong (Apothacary + Standard Bearer) than why are we forced to take five in the Codex? Doesn't seem fair really. Why is that most GW units never match their fluff?

That's because there's no hard and fast answer. Again, because the accounts vary and conflict. Having a dedicated command squad only makes sense. And since we know that the 1000 Marines doesn't make sense, it stands to reason that, just like the Chapter actually being up to or over 1500 strong, that the Command Squad is also permanent, and not some hodge podge of veterans pulled from their line squads (thus reducing the squad's capabilities, lol).

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
that the Command Squad is also permanent, and not some hodge podge of veterans pulled from their line squads (thus reducing the squad's capabilities, lol).

I would say that would be a better idea. Anything that effects the Chapter's efficiency would be a bad idea.

Game mechanics and squad boxes may not always tie in with previously written background. Before third edition Apothecaries and Standard Bearers were bought as individual characters not part of a squad. As for rotating the Command Squad, the Captain may want advice from a particular Sergeant or Veteran because they have experience against Orks that he needs so they are removed from their squad to remain close by.

In real life, if you have a small unit leader who is also a SME on a particular type of enemy, you aren't going to pull him from his unit and disrupt their unit cohesion. The commander is going to ply him for all the information he can. Nothing happens instantaneously when it comes to interstellar combat, lol. I know the Black Library novels seem to compress the passage of time somewhat, but there would be plenty of time for a commander to gather his leadership together, even if they had to fight an enemy on "short notice". Remember, Space Marine military careers are measured in centuries, not two to three decades like in real life, where an infantry Sergeant with two seven month tours might be an expert on parts of Iraq or Afghanistan and the kinds of TTPs to expect.

Remember also that the Space Marines seem to have two promotion tracks, Veterans and Sergeants, for Marines who excel at being Marines vs excel at being leaders of Marines, as opposed most modern military organizations where one is expected to get better as a leader, or get out (or just make all your underlings miserable in a rear echelon unit, lol). Space Marines, on the other hand, don't have an "Up or Out" track like that. You're in for life, or at least life until you get blown up so many times that you're no longer able fight efficiently, even with clockwork bionic parts. Since you don't have consistent replenishment (remember, the modern US Marines recruits constantly because it really only wants to retain a small percentage of Marines past the 4 year mark (Privates and Lance Coolies make less money than Staff NCOs and you don't want too many chiefs and not enough Indians, but also, fresh bodies and minds as both get broken down the longer you are in)), Marines are going to be retained and retrained based on what their aptitudes are. A Marine who is really good at being a Marine might become a member of the 1st Company, while a Marine who is above average, but also a really good leader will become a Sergeant. Obviously the best of both of those worlds would become Veteran Sergeants, and likely from there be promoted upwards into the somewhat vague Staff positions, and if they live long enough, and show the aptitude, and somebody ahead of them dies (or gets blown into a pair of cyberwheels), they might get to be a Captain.

So realistically, a Command Squad is going to be made up of staff Sergeants and some select Veterans (virtually identical by game rules). If the command packs from Forge World suggest anything (and it's something I've mentioned often enough that maybe Forgeworld stole my idea), there are going to be guys with long range comm units (for communicating across large distances, with aircraft/artillery, or with spaceborne Fleet elements), as well as the Apothecary, the Company Chaplain, a standard bearer (if they are carrying it in battle because this is Napoleonics in spess), etc. I mean, realistically, the "in universe" Command Squad is probably ten guys at least (The Damocles Command Rhino has two dudes in the back of it) when you're splitting them up between all the command elements. If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short. That's 10% of their combat power, and dragging out a Veteran or Sergeant is probably even more of a percentage.

O'Raatol wrote:Also, yes some Space Wolves may have a tendency to fail to over come the feral part, but it is all due to the Canis Helix which is part of Leman Russ' geneseed and nothing to do with a mutation. Leman Russ himself went through a similar transformation as a child growing up on Fenris.

Perhaps it is the frequency or that Russ had more control about it - I only know that as mentioned in the Index Astartes, the Imperium considers their geneseed as flawed. Same goes for the Blood Angels.
It may well be possible that this is just "public opinion" amongst the bigwigs in the Adeptus Terra because none of them actually remembers the Primarchs. It's been 10.000 years, after all, with many truths having become twisted or forgotten, at times deliberately. Propaganda ftw. Either that, or it has somehow become "worse" over the millennia...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

I think they made 1,000 a rough number to go by during the second founding. The spirit of the reformation of the chapters is too limit the number of Astartes from the level of the Legions ( in the tens of thousands) to a lower number. Some chapters are smaller, some are larger but their aren't more than 1,500 per chapter. Also, its important to look at the Auxiliary units and the Neophytes that are counted in that number.

I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

 CuddlySquig wrote:
I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

GW just isn't very good with numbers. Really, a Chapter should be 10,000 minimum to do the kind of stuff they do in fluff, and yes that's taking into account the superhuman abilities of Space Marines.

CuddlySquig wrote:I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

You mean the basic layout of "10 companies, 10 squads, 10 guys in each"? Or the more detailed info where they also talk about the Astartes' multi-role assignments, the role of the Reserve Companies, and the so-called supernumaries? The latter makes sense, I think - although it appears obvious that it was written up as an excuse for the former.

That's what GW likes the most - recycling old stuff and lending sense to it by expanding the details and twisting them in a way that it works. Quite remarkable for a franchise which cares so little for continuity elsewhere.

Harriticus wrote:GW just isn't very good with numbers. Really, a Chapter should be 10,000 minimum to do the kind of stuff they do in fluff, and yes that's taking into account the superhuman abilities of Space Marines.

I'm sure some people might complain they're not epic enough anymore, then.

I'd rather they tone down the frequency of such heroics in order to reflect a sort-of "recuperation period" where the Chapter does little else other than training and token patrols in order to replace their losses, essentially rendering the Space Marines a high-profile asset which may really make a dent somewhere if they deploy in force (and in conjunction with regular forces, of course) - but then they'd be "on cooldown" for a while until they can be wielded again. For some Chapters this would already fit, but the popular ones seem way too active, or the writers really want us to believe that they take few to no casualties. I'm not sure which would be worse.

This has been discussed in part or in whole on some threads here before and the one I am thinking of was from 2011.
Here is Laodamia's calculation.

Laodamia wrote:

HQ
Chapter master
Honour Guard (and chapter standard bearer): 25 veterans
Reclusiam: master of the reclusiam+chaplains not attached to an individual company (3?)
High ranking officer attached to the HQ?
Transport and command vehicles: 3 land raiders (personnal vehicle of the chapter master, prometheus command vehicle) + 5 damocles rhinos. 24 crew.

Total: 54 (?)

Apothecarion
10 apothecaries (not attached to an individual company)
5 pilots for the specially modified medical rhinos

total: 15

Librarius
Chief librarian
3 epistolaries
6 codiciers
10 lexicaniums

total: 20?

Fleet:
2-3 battle barges
6 strike cruisers
5-6 escort squadrons of different types= roughly 20 escort vessels.
30-35 thunderhawk gunship: 120-140 crew
35 thunderhawk transporters: 105 crew

total: 245

Armory:
10 LR of various types: 30 crew
25 predators pf various types: 50 crew
7 razorbacks of various types: 7 pilots
5 vindicators: 10 crew
20 whirlwinds of various types: 40 crew
additionnal techmarines acting as reserve crews, maintenance and battle engineers, etc: 30
100 TDA suits

total: 157

1st Company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
100 veterans
30 crew for 10 LR of various types
10 pilots for 10 rhinos
3 dreads

total: 147 marines

2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
100 marines
10 pilots for the transport vehicles (rhinos and razorbacks)
3 dreads

total: 118 marines (each)

10th Company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
100 scouts

total: 103 marines

TOTAL: 1685; 521 of them being vehicle crews

As you can see, I removed the land speeders from my list, assuming that they are crewed by the infantry squads. I also corrected a few errors with my vehicle crews total.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/366211.page

 Lynata wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

You mean the basic layout of "10 companies, 10 squads, 10 guys in each"? Or the more detailed info where they also talk about the Astartes' multi-role assignments, the role of the Reserve Companies, and the so-called supernumaries? The latter makes sense, I think - although it appears obvious that it was written up as an excuse for the former.

That's what GW likes the most - recycling old stuff and lending sense to it by expanding the details and twisting them in a way that it works. Quite remarkable for a franchise which cares so little for continuity elsewhere.

Harriticus wrote:GW just isn't very good with numbers. Really, a Chapter should be 10,000 minimum to do the kind of stuff they do in fluff, and yes that's taking into account the superhuman abilities of Space Marines.

I'm sure some people might complain they're not epic enough anymore, then.

I'd rather they tone down the frequency of such heroics in order to reflect a sort-of "recuperation period" where the Chapter does little else other than training and token patrols in order to replace their losses, essentially rendering the Space Marines a high-profile asset which may really make a dent somewhere if they deploy in force (and in conjunction with regular forces, of course) - but then they'd be "on cooldown" for a while until they can be wielded again. For some Chapters this would already fit, but the popular ones seem way too active, or the writers really want us to believe that they take few to no casualties. I'm not sure which would be worse.

A corps of 10 million elite warriors for a galaxy of war still is pretty damn rare.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

Yeah, except I already covered how the numbers don't add up for that, and how it's fundamentally unsound according to any and all schools of military thought, lol.

I would say the numbers add up fine as long as you keep in mind that supernumaries do not count to the total, and that a Chapter will never be able to actually deploy ten companies with ten squads each and with vehicle support. But let's not debate over such intricacies, we know where that will lead and I should have probably better kept my mouth shut. Let's just settle for mutual acknowledgement of different opinions/interpretations instead.

As for the "schools of military thought" - welcome to the 41st millennium.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

Yeah, except I already covered how the numbers don't add up for that, and how it's fundamentally unsound according to any and all schools of military thought, lol.

At present though you are attempting to apply schools of military thought and, I assume, your own experience with a game and fictional background written by men who may have no military experience past watching war films on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon (the usual time British TV showed them in the 70s and 80s). In that fictional background a Chapter of 1000 nominal warriors works. For a real life battalion in Afghanistan it would never work.

alphaecho wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

Yeah, except I already covered how the numbers don't add up for that, and how it's fundamentally unsound according to any and all schools of military thought, lol.

At present though you are attempting to apply schools of military thought and, I assume, your own experience with a game and fictional background written by men who may have no military experience past watching war films on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon (the usual time British TV showed them in the 70s and 80s). In that fictional background a Chapter of 1000 nominal warriors works. For a real life battalion in Afghanistan it would never work.

+1

I completely agree with this statement. Space Marines may be super-humans, they may worth 100 or 1000 Guardsmen. But when it comes to planetary invasion you cannot defeat a race or nation with only 1000 warriors - at least when it comes to real world.

But to credit 40k, most of invasion work like this - you take the capital and the planet falls apart. And most 40k planets have one single capital city ( or several at least, not counting the Hive Cities of course ).

The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

Dont worry, BT will save you all in the end. Thank us then.

In response to OP

I was wondering this my self, if you are wondering about things like tank drivers and pilots, those dont count. when they say 1000 strong they mean 1000 foot soldiers so the 1000 consist of tactical, assault, devastators, honor guard, terminator, ect ect. this is from what i have been told.

I thought the Imperium was loosely based on the Roman Empire?

It is a little known fact the ancient empires of earth (Roman, Egyption, Babalon etc...) used to count in 12's not tens. On that note there are 12 squads per company and technicaly 12 companies - the standard 10, a double strength Techmarine company and new recruits for my chapter totaling somewhere near 1500 at full strength

Graphite wrote:
The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

I like this post a lot because it is not complaining and makes inferences from given information. I avoided this thread but I am glad I read it and it turned out ok since I didn't have to read most of it.

Food for thought, oh posters of skippable posts: a tactical squad has ten marines. Eight marines can never be a tactical squad; they are just eight guys. A captain probably prefers to break up one squad to crew the remaining rhinos than to have multiple non-squads that are too small to do what their jobs are.

Graphite wrote:
The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

The problem is, while your manpower needs decrease, the more your force multipliers decrease alongside them.

It isn't about whether or not they could, it's about whether or not you would. It seems rather silly to think that running a Marine Chapter means constantly doing equations to figure out how to use your large amount of resources with a limited amount of manpower. "Can we bring the Whirlwind along today?" "No, we've only got 45 guys today, and we're going to need to take that Landspeeder for reconnaissance. That only leaves Brother Dudicus as an ancillary, and we need two Marines to crew the Whirlwind, so I've remanded him to my Command Squad to serve as a Plasma Gunner."

Given how often the Chapter is broken up into smaller elements, this ludicrous force divisor (that's not even a military term because it's so stupid of an idea) becomes even more exacerbated. Thinking about 1000 guys minus crews is one thing. When you're deploying a company or two, suddenly the percentage of combat power lost by reassignment becomes greater for each Marine whose duty has to be reallocated to another task. We're into theories derived from basic economics almost now, lol.

I mean, there's no hard and fast answer to any of it. But as the definition of a Space Marine Chapter and its assets has evolved, the 1000 has stayed constant. We keep getting new vehicles and flyers and space fleets, and all of this, extra stuff. And still only 1000 guys to do it all. And right now, that's 40-50% of their combat capability at maximum strength. It's not terribly difficult to see how this is a problem when you start crunching the numbers.

Graphite wrote:The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

Kudos, well written post! And very much in line with what the Codex says about the Battle Companies almost always deploying heavily augmented by troops from the Reserve who provide specialist assistance and vehicular support. More people should read the Codex fluff, and more people should read your post.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I completely agree with this statement. Space Marines may be super-humans, they may worth 100 or 1000 Guardsmen. But when it comes to planetary invasion you cannot defeat a race or nation with only 1000 warriors - at least when it comes to real world.

But to credit 40k, most of invasion work like this - you take the capital and the planet falls apart. And most 40k planets have one single capital city ( or several at least, not counting the Hive Cities of course ).

Arr, but the Chapter as a WHOLE is NEVER deployed into one battle only the Battle Companies are deployed because if they suffered 90% casualties that would destroy the Chapter. So no, the world would not be taken by 1000 warriors. It would be taken by 2-3 IG Legions backed up by several companies probably from several Chapters from the surrounding sector.

But I do agree, most victories in 40k do seem to be one crucial battle at one particular city.

Graphite wrote:
... and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

1, as we have already established, Marines don't drive the Rhinos or Thunderhawks.
2, squads would not be broke up in such a way as to leave two behind wile the rest do other stuff. Combat Squads are the smallest seperation that a Chapter does.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Food for thought, oh posters of skippable posts: a tactical squad has ten marines. Eight marines can never be a tactical squad; they are just eight guys. A captain probably prefers to break up one squad to crew the remaining rhinos than to have multiple non-squads that are too small to do what their jobs are.

Combat Squad = 5 Marines, Tactical Squad = 10. 8 = Tactical squad that has losses.
And again, Marines dont drive rhinos.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It isn't about whether or not they could, it's about whether or not you would. It seems rather silly to think that running a Marine Chapter means constantly doing equations to figure out how to use your large amount of resources with a limited amount of manpower. "Can we bring the Whirlwind along today?" "No, we've only got 45 guys today, and we're going to need to take that Landspeeder for reconnaissance. That only leaves Brother Dudicus as an ancillary, and we need two Marines to crew the Whirlwind, so I've remanded him to my Command Squad to serve as a Plasma Gunner."

Again, Marines don't drive Whirlwinds. And the Land Speeder would be piloted by Marines from the 7th Company so whatever Company you have those 45 Marines from you would kepp the 45 Marines plus the Vehicles.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Given how often the Chapter is broken up into smaller elements, this ludicrous force divisor (that's not even a military term because it's so stupid of an idea) becomes even more exacerbated. Thinking about 1000 guys minus crews is one thing. When you're deploying a company or two, suddenly the percentage of combat power lost by reassignment becomes greater for each Marine whose duty has to be reallocated to another task. We're into theories derived from basic economics almost now, lol.

Yes but what he was saying, I think, is not so much that the Marines are reassigned to different tasks, it's just that each squad can do whatever task they are given. So one day they might be Boarders on a Hulk, next they may be fire support for fellow squads or they might be sent in as a rapid response team in their rhino. Its not like, 'oh send him to be a devastator today, while you two pilot a land speeder, and the rest of you wreck that tank' its more 'today we're assault troops, tomorrow were tank hunters, ok?'.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, there's no hard and fast answer to any of it. But as the definition of a Space Marine Chapter and its assets has evolved, the 1000 has stayed constant. We keep getting new vehicles and flyers and space fleets, and all of this, extra stuff. And still only 1000 guys to do it all. And right now, that's 40-50% of their combat capability at maximum strength. It's not terribly difficult to see how this is a problem when you start crunching the numbers.

New vehicles STILL NOT DRIVEN BY MARINES so no changes there and flyers which are taken in support and are piloted by 7th Company Marines so no extra duties for a Battle Company there either, so what are you actually complaining about???

 O'Raatol wrote:


Arr, but the Chapter as a WHOLE is NEVER deployed into one battle only the Battle Companies are deployed because if they suffered 90% casualties that would destroy the Chapter.

That's actually not true, we have several established instances in which Chapters have deployed the entire Chapter. Armageddon 3 has 2 or 3 Chapters do it, Black 13th has several Chapters(including the Dark Angels) show up in full, and so does the Badab War, to name a few.

Platuan4th wrote:That's actually not true, we have several established instances in which Chapters have deployed the entire Chapter. Armageddon 3 has 2 or 3 Chapters do it, Black 13th has several Chapters(including the Dark Angels) show up in full, and so does the Badab War, to name a few.

Aye - in the end, "full deployment" only means that the commander has to decide how many of his 1.000 guys he wants to deploy in vehicles, and how many as infantry. A decision which would surely be made on an as-needed basis.

Rarely happens, though, so I suppose it would not really be a concern in terms of efficiency.

O'Raatol wrote:1, as we have already established, Marines don't drive the Rhinos or Thunderhawks.
2, squads would not be broke up in such a way as to leave two behind wile the rest do other stuff. Combat Squads are the smallest seperation that a Chapter does.

Doesn't it say in the codices that these vehicles are indeed piloted by Space Marines as well?
And squads are indeed broken up, although the Codex mentions this only for the Reserve companies -> as soon as a Battle Company has a casualty but the squad is still operational, someone from the Reserve transfers in. These units are, I think, not actually intended as independent fighting formations; their purpose is entirely supplemental, and as such there is no harm in having them understrength. I suppose you could say the Reserve is "cannibalised" to keep the Battle Companies - whose name already implies that these are the ones who carry the bulk of the Chapter's burden - as close to full strength as possible.

That's what I'm getting from the 5E 'dex, anyways.

 Lynata wrote:
There also was something about the 1k limitation being "suspended" for Chapters engaged in prolonged conflict, as they will have to train replacements for battle casualties and the Adeptus Terra agrees that having some Marines more is better than having too few. I can't find the source right now, but there ya go.

You'd probably be thinking of early edition Epic 40K's 'Armies of the Imperium' , the mention of which got modified/recycled into the 5th edition Space Marine Codex. The first specified that Chapters may create and maintain additional companies in times of prolonged conflict (which doesnt say whether or not they are actively serving, or simply acting as a substantial reserve in cases of losses.) and the second source mentions that Chapters have 'often' exceeded the 1000 man limit in times of prolonged war.

Late to the 1000-marines party but:

Its " have 1000 brothers ready for battle" not "have 1000 battle-brothers".

Example 3rd edition codex Space Marines. Organization of the Ultramarines in M41:

1st Co

- 101 Marines.
- 3 dreads, 18 Rhino, 7 Land Raider, 74 suits of TDA.

2nd Co:

- 103 Marines
- 2 dreads, 11 Rhinos, 3 Landspeeder, 2 Tornado Ls, 1 Typhoon Ls, 18 Bikes, 2 Assault-bikes

3rd Co:

- 100 Marines
- 2 dreads, 9 rhinos, 2 Landspeeder, 2 tornado Ls, 3 Typhoon Ls, 20 bikes, 4 assault-bikes.

4th Co:

- 109 Marines
- 4 dreads, 15 rhinos, 5 Landspeeder, 5 tornado Ls, 5 Typhoon Ls, 25 bikes, 5 assault-bikes.

5th Co:

- 86 Marines
- 1 dread, 7 rhinos, 4 landspeeder, 1 typhoon Ls, 12 bikes, 1 assault-bike.

6th Co:

- 97 marines
- 4 dreads, 13 rhinos, 21 bikes, 3 assault-bikes.

7th Co:

- 101 marines
- 3 dreads, 15 rhinos, 4 landspeeder, 3 tornadoLs, 4 typhoonLs .

8th Co:

- 101 marines
- 5 dreads, 16 rhinos, 28 bikes, 7 assault-bikes, 8 landspeeder, 4 tornadoLs, 5 typhoonLS.

9th Co:

- 92 marines
- 7 dreads, 8 rhinos

10th Co:

- 13 marines ( without scouts )

Librarium:

- 28 marines

Apothecarion:

- 17 marines

Arsenal:

- 33 marines

HQ:

- 5 marines
- 3 rhinos, 2 Land Raider, 5 razorbacks


As you can see there, losses are included. In this list, it sums up to 986 marines if the Chapter isn't at full strength but misses a few memebers. Filling the gaps in the squads addds another 74 marines, so closer to 1060. There are alos no Predators, Vindicators or Whirlwind listed in the companies sincew they belong to the arsenal. Still a bit diferent from more recent charts because the chaplains are distributed amongst the companies here. Please note too, each company may have vehicles of different types and some got more than neccessary to transport the company.

Understrength, they are closer to 1000. At their peak, its only 1000 if some marines don't count.

Again, all of this is kind of glossing over the fact that most chapters wouldn't even have a thousand anyway due to losses

 O'Raatol wrote:

Again, Marines don't drive Whirlwinds. And the Land Speeder would be piloted by Marines from the 7th Company so whatever Company you have those 45 Marines from you would kepp the 45 Marines plus the Vehicles.
New vehicles STILL NOT DRIVEN BY MARINES so no changes there and flyers which are taken in support and are piloted by 7th Company Marines so no extra duties for a Battle Company there either, so what are you actually complaining about???

The information you are objecting to has been in the army list entries themselves, and in every publication about space marines since there were space marines. This is an obnoxious post. It's weird, and if you were curious you would find out instead of posting compulsively.

Most chapters don't really follow the Codex to the letter, thankfully. As others have said the space marines are in a constant cycle of losing men, if anything they probably have more than 1000 actual members of the chapter if you're including all of their neophytes.

Also poor chapters like the Lamenters are lucky to even exist anymore.

O'Raatol wrote:

New vehicles STILL NOT DRIVEN BY MARINES so no changes there and flyers which are taken in support and are piloted by 7th Company Marines so no extra duties for a Battle Company there either, so what are you actually complaining about???

LOL, would you like to see the 2nd Edition vehicle card that says "Crew: 2 Space Marines"?

Yeah, they do. Heck, the original Whirlwind model has a Space Marine crew member in the turret.

Stand down son. You're in over your head.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 O'Raatol wrote:


Arr, but the Chapter as a WHOLE is NEVER deployed into one battle only the Battle Companies are deployed because if they suffered 90% casualties that would destroy the Chapter.

That's actually not true, we have several established instances in which Chapters have deployed the entire Chapter. Armageddon 3 has 2 or 3 Chapters do it, Black 13th has several Chapters(including the Dark Angels) show up in full, and so does the Badab War, to name a few.

But those are rare and EXCEPTIONAL circumstances. In general a Chapter would not commit its entire number to a conflict. It states as such in the past three Codexes each of which I have.

 Lynata wrote:

O'Raatol wrote:1, as we have already established, Marines don't drive the Rhinos or Thunderhawks.
2, squads would not be broke up in such a way as to leave two behind wile the rest do other stuff. Combat Squads are the smallest seperation that a Chapter does.

Doesn't it say in the codices that these vehicles are indeed piloted by Space Marines as well?

And squads are indeed broken up, although the Codex mentions this only for the Reserve companies -> as soon as a Battle Company has a casualty but the squad is still operational, someone from the Reserve transfers in. These units are, I think, not actually intended as independent fighting formations; their purpose is entirely supplemental, and as such there is no harm in having them understrength. I suppose you could say the Reserve is "cannibalised" to keep the Battle Companies - whose name already implies that these are the ones who carry the bulk of the Chapter's burden - as close to full strength as possible.

That's what I'm getting from the 5E 'dex, anyways.

The point I was trying to make about what Veteran Sergeant said about having only 45 Marines and needing to split some up to drive rhinos and land speeders is redundant as it has been established that the reserve companies pilot and drive those, leaving the Battle Company intact.

When I said the Squads wouldn't be broken up, I was talking about the Battle Comapnies. It's already been noted that the reserve squads break up on a regular basis to pilot land speeders and bikes in support of the Battle Companies, but the Battle Companies would not want to compromise their structure.

Also, I apologise and put my hands about the rhinos (and variants there of plus other vehicles) not being driven by Space Marines. There ARE certain bits of fluff and references that I know of that DO suggest that they are not driven by them, but obviously there is a higher majority that say they do, I've just never seen them.

Also, a lot of people keep comenting saying they wouldn't be 1000 exactly in such a way that suggests I was saying they were. My actual post was challenging that very fact in the first place. I know that most chapters arn't 1000 marines or that some even make it as far as 500. My actual real query was to what part of the Chapter the 1000 refered to and it has definately been made clear that it's the basic line men (minus Scouts as they not full Marines).

Even back when they where Legions, the numbers where never exact.

Referring to the Lexicanum:

"The approximate sizes of a few of the Legions at the start of the Heresy have been given in various sources:

Ultramarines - 250,000
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
Emperor's Children - 50,000"

Plus the Salamanders are constantly referred to as being the 'Smallest Legion' even before they were almost destroyed at Isstvan V.

 Lynata wrote:

And squads are indeed broken up, although the Codex mentions this only for the Reserve companies -> as soon as a Battle Company has a casualty but the squad is still operational, someone from the Reserve transfers in.

See the list from codex space marines 3rd ed, that I have posted. Lots of depleted squads there...

 Lynata wrote:

These units are, I think, not actually intended as independent fighting formations; their purpose is entirely supplemental, and as such there is no harm in having them understrength. I suppose you could say the Reserve is "cannibalised" to keep the Battle Companies - whose name already implies that these are the ones who carry the bulk of the Chapter's burden - as close to full strength as possible.

I'll list 3 examples from the same ol 3rd codex, just to show what happens when GW actually puts some numbers into their books. ok?

Example 1:

Joran VI

Arsenal : 4 Predator Annihilator, 6 Predator Destruktor, 6 Razorbacks, 3 Land Raider, 4 Vindicator , 3 Whirlwinds, 5 Rhinos, 5 Techmarines , 18 Servitors.

Librarium: 3 Lexicani , 1 Codifizer ( titles no longer as present as they were in 3rd )

Apothecarion: 1 Apothecary , 3 servomeds

Fleet: 2 Strikecruiser , 12 Thunderhawks

1st Comp. 10 Terminators, 2 Land Raider

3rd Comp. Captain , 1 Chaplain , 1 Apothecary, Standardbearer, 1 Veteran Sarge;
- 35 Tactical marines, 20 Devastors , 8 Assault-marines;
- 2 dreads , 6 Rhinos, 6 Landspeeder, 10 bikes, 2 assault-bikes;

10th Comp. 20 Scouts

There aren't any "reserve-company-marines" around this force to drive any vehicle they ferry around in their Space vessels. They got enough means to travel for the Assault elements to choose from. Sure its an old bit of fluff but it isn't replaced yet and since you are so fond of keeping fluff...


Example 2:

Escort / Recon fleet Delpha

Arsenal : 2 Techmarines , 6 servitors

Librarium: 1 Magister ( again old title )

Apothecarion: 1 Apothecary, 5 servomeds

Fleet: 3 Thunderhawks

1st Comp. 10 veterans, 1 Rhino ( non - TDA vets )

4th Comp. Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, 2 Veteran sarge , 30 Tactical marines, 20 Assault-marines, 6 Rhinos

10th Comp. 5 Scouts


again, no "reserve-company-marine" around to drive anything.


Example 2:

Patrol Sector Gerio

Arsenal: 2 Predator Annihilator, 1 Vindicator , 1 Razorback, 2 Techmarines, 4 servitors

Librarium 1 Magister ( yes, yes, old stuff )

Apothecarion: 3 servomeds

Fleet: 1 Strike cruiser, 3 thunderhawks

1st Comp. 5 Terminators

6th Comp. Captain, Apothecary, Standardbearer, 2 Veteran sarges, 15 tactical marines;
- 1 dread, 1 Rhino, 2 Landspeeder, 5 bikes, 1 assault-bike;

8th Comp. 10 assault-marines

9th Comp. 5 Devastators

10th Comp. 5 scouts.


Patrol duty, done by reserve companies. A few vets too but generally a mix of units from different companies and on Patrol, engagements may happen...

Plus, back in these days vehicles had Crew = space marines in their army list entries.

I keep all the old fluff, at least as long as it is not replaced (or no longer seems sensible due to newer information).

And in this case, I do not see the contradiction.

1hadhq wrote:There aren't any "reserve-company-marines" around this force to drive any vehicle they ferry around in their Space vessels. They got enough means to travel for the Assault elements to choose from.

I think there has been a miscommunication. I did not intend to imply that the Battle Companies have no drivers whatsoever - but that Marines from the Reserve Companies fill this role whenever a Battle Company intends to deploy in full force with 10 squads of infantry, or has personnel otherwise occupied. At this point there obviously would be no potential drivers available, because they're already busy. Likewise, a Battle Company not at full strength might prefer to lend drivers from the Reserve just so they can get more boots to the ground even for smaller engagements, as they need to account for casualties.
It's a balancing thing.

From the 5E Codex: "The Assault Squads of the Battle Company may be deployed as Bike squadrons or Land Speeder crews should theatre conditions require it."

In other words, if you want 10 squads *and* vehicles on top of that, you turn to the Reserve, which is why: "Most Space Marine deployments will consist of a single Battle Company, heavily reinforced by elements of the Veteran, Scout and Reserve Companies."

PS: Also note that "Arsenal" means "we have these here in case we need them", not "deployed and in use". Which fits excellent to a Marine's capability to switch between infantry and driver and back on a moment's notice, just as the situation demands.
It would probably be better to have a chart of individual engagements, rather than just an overview of what they had at their disposal when they began the campaign.

Hmmm.....lets see the blood angels are made up of 10 squads of 10 in each company (10 companys = 1000 marines) but also they have 30 sanguinity guard in addition to the standard space marine chapter AND you have the death company as well (they are not counted as part of the chapter list)

 Lynata wrote:


And in this case, I do not see the contradiction.

Since there seemed only a few sources used in this thread, I deemed it an option to throw that old list from 3rd in, a list which shows the Ultramarines in a depleted state. ie squads of less than 10 marines etc and companies at different strengths. Secondly, the forces shown as examples are a mixed bunch, a strike force , a recon group, a patrol. Was intended to give us an idea of what these things may consist, if I may guess.

But its also a great piece of completeness, a list of the whole chapter and some of its forces sent. We can see there marines identified by company. Especially what we are looking for, IMO. The issue I want to point at is, in this codex we have vehicles with crews included, and additionally examples of forces where the companies may deploy with some veterans and scouts alongside but not with some "reserve" marines from a reserve company. Better yet, they are not even deploying the full company so they could just take more of their "own" if they need more marines.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There aren't any "reserve-company-marines" around this force to drive any vehicle they ferry around in their Space vessels. They got enough means to travel for the Assault elements to choose from.

I did not intend to imply that the Battle Companies have no drivers whatsoever - but that Marines from the Reserve Companies fill this role whenever a Battle Company intends to deploy in full force with 10 squads of infantry, or has personnel otherwise occupied.

Deployments depend on the Chapter master, if he orders multiple companies and assigns one as the leader. He could sent a full battlecompany and some additional marines, sure. But is it really such a good idea to use the "reserve"-marines just as reserve, as drivers? Marines are meant to fight and I think they wouldn't want to stay back and be that rhino-driver again and again whilst the rest wins the day and gets to use their weapons.

 Lynata wrote:

PS: Also note that "Arsenal" means "we have these here in case we need them", not "deployed and in use".

The place where they keep the vehicles which do not belong to the companies?
The home of the techmarines? The place where marines learn about those vehicles? I don't think arsenal was meant as "storage room" in this case. Rather the common name of the part of a chapter that is under the rule of the , actually Master of the Forge, who reports to the Chapter master, not the captain of a company. Sure MotF didn't exist in that old dex. And as a valid description of the part of a force that comes from said part of the chapter , thus:
Arsenal, not company xyz..

 Lynata wrote:

It would probably be better to have a chart of individual engagements, rather than just an overview of what they had at their disposal when they began the campaign.

GW stopped filling their work with details and added more "cinematicness".

1hadhq wrote:The issue I want to point at is, in this codex we have vehicles with crews included, and additionally examples of forces where the companies may deploy with some veterans and scouts alongside but not with some "reserve" marines from a reserve company. Better yet, they are not even deploying the full company so they could just take more of their "own" if they need more marines.

I would add that the Reserve Company could simply not be listed because they are attaching indidivual elements to the Battle Company - in essence that a vehicle (and its drivers) from a Reserve Company become part of the squad of a Battle Company for as long as the mission requires them to operate together.

Not saying this was the case in the examples you posted. As we have both written by now, it is perfectly plausible that they took their own as drivers, simply because they never intended to deploy each Marine in the company as infantry.

The list you posted does not say "crews included", by the way. Is this actually stated in the Codex, or is this an assumption?

1hadhq wrote:But is it really such a good idea to use the "reserve"-marines just as reserve, as drivers? Marines are meant to fight and I think they wouldn't want to stay back and be that rhino-driver again and again whilst the rest wins the day and gets to use their weapons.

Is it a good idea? Depends. Given the lifetime of a Space Marine (2-3 times as long as a normal human, no retirement), it could be useful to train them in such diverse capabilities. Just look at how they start their career: lightly armoured Scouts wielding sniper rifles and doing recon - only to later switch into powered armour and deep strike as heavily armed shock troops. Also driving a tank is not that much farther apart.

And ... that's quite simply how it was written down by GW. I think you're applying modern military standards here, which may not be the best thing to do. Another poster mentioned that the Marines would probably just not agree with driving a Rhino being an unwanted task. We might find it hard to understand the sentiment of the people in the 41st millennium when it comes to their vehicles, but they really do care a lot about them, at least as much as they care about their own weapons. Being allowed to drive a Rhino is as much a honour as it is to don a suit of powered armour.

"It is a position of great honour to care for these vehicles and those that are carried into battle within one of the spirits that inhabit the mechanical functions and blessed bolts that make up each one. [...]
Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. After the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge, fourteen Rhinos of the Imperial Fists had to be abandoned when traitor Space Marines from the Night Lords Legion ambushed the advancing column as it crossed the only bridge across the gorge. [...] The following morning a daring mission involving an airborne assault across the gorge pushed back the Night Lords from the hills on the opposite side and allowed the Imperial Fists to bring up salvage units to start the recovery of their shattered vehicles and the bodies of their comrades. The battle in the hills raged for over thirty hours, with Imperial Fists' casualties amounting to almost 85% as they fought to give their Techmarines enough time to retrieve the fallen Rhinos. Many of the recovered vehicles were subsequently repaired and sent back into action, their battle spirits eager to avenge the ignominy of their earlier defeat. "
- WD #269 : Rhinos

That being said, the Reserve Companies would of course not be used exclusively as drivers. It depends on the situation - did not one example you posted mention them as pulling patrol duty?
The names of these formations really give a good indicator on what they do, already. Battle Companies are the ones doing most of the battling. Reserve Companies are auxiliaries. And given how a Space Marine would have to prove himself before he gets invited into 1st Company, I would actually expect newly minted Brother-Marines to pull a couple tours of duty in the Reserve Companies, too, before they join one of the Battle Companies (likely connected to the "casualty replacement" role also mentioned in the Codex).

It makes sense, the more I think about it. As a Marine you most likely either go Scout -> Reserve Company -> Battle Company -> 1st Company, or you become a Sergeant and then a Captain (with a chance of later replacing another Captain in one of the "more elite" companies). All depending on whether you're a better warrior or a better leader.

1hadhq wrote:The place where they keep the vehicles which do not belong to the companies? The home of the techmarines? The place where marines learn about those vehicles? I don't think arsenal was meant as "storage room" in this case.

In the list you posted, it was listed as belonging to the mission detachment, so ... yes, it would have to be a "storage room", likely on the ship that carried the task force, or the base that was erected as part of the campaign.

Well, okay, "storage room" is probably a misnomer, given that it also includes people - but the space would be a part of it, as are the vehicles (obviously, else they would not be listed there but with one of the companies that was also part of the mission). And if they are not firmly assigned to one of the companies, it means they must be "up for grabs" in case anyone needs them, which in turn means they have no designated driver, which means ... someone's gotta be capable of filling this position, but does not usually do so.
I mean, that's about the only reason I could come up with for the presence of these vehicles there.

1hadhq wrote:GW stopped filling their work with details and added more "cinematicness".

Sad, but true.
I kind of miss the old days of cross-sections and hard numbers 'n stuff. Though I kinda understand why they changed it, even if I'll never agree.

The tenth company is comprised of scouts who are not full battle-brothers yet so they wouldn't be counted with the full 1000 battle brothers.

orz192 wrote:The tenth company is comprised of scouts who are not full battle-brothers yet so they wouldn't be counted with the full 1000 battle brothers.

"Each of the ten companies that comprises a Chapter is led by a Space Marine Captain and includes supernumaries such as the Company's Chaplain and Apothecary. The official fighting strength of each company is made up of ten squads each of ten Space Marines led by a Sergeant."
- 5E C:SM

10 x 10 x 10 = 1.000

However, on the same page it also says that "the Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not a fixed amount". So that is either a contradiction born out of merging old and new texts, or - and this is how I am interpreting it - simply a case of "this is how it would be nice" versus "do as you see fit". Both maxims are somewhat contradictory, but do not actually conflict with each other. It just means that, whilst non-standard, nobody will actually raise an eyebrow if your Chapter has 120 Scouts or 40. In essence, there is no fixed authorized strength for this company, but the Codex Astartes still recommends 10 squads with 10 men each, so I suppose that's what most Codex Chapters would regard as the norm (even in cases where they would not currently adhere to it).

See, this was also why I was challenging the 1000 Marines statement.

Most people are obviously half and half as to whether Scouts count or not because they're not yet full Marines which means it could be argued that if the 100 Scouts don't count, maybe the command and other departments make up the last 100.

Isn't the available material clear about that Scouts *do* count, but that "other departments" *do not*?

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ca.html
A copy of the Index Astartes article as it appeared in White Dwarf. In short: "Headquarters staff" = supernumaries.

Parts of it also appear in the 5E Codex. To me, it is crystal-clear, but I suppose all our perceptions may be tainted by individual interpretation, leading to the endless debate even where we think the sources could not possibly be misunderstood.

Well, yes, just look at the debate about acts of faith and whether or not they're psychic powers. The text is completely and utterly unambiguous, specific, and clear... but certain fans ignore that.

 Lynata wrote:
To me, it is crystal-clear, but I suppose all our perceptions may be tainted by individual interpretation

The only thing crystal clear is, most of the design team have no idea how to keep their work crystal clear.

Secondly, I for one think Your view is tainted. .. if someones can be called that.
..not really a surprise this thread is at "individual interpretation station" , the place it all ends like, like always..

How about: they love certain numbers, and 1000 is pretty and easy to remember and adds nicely to the 1.000.000 worlds as a 1000x1000 ... because I don't think GW has put so much effort into sizes and organization as "we" do in debating them.

To insist on a SM chapter = 1000 SM is like taking a bit of fluff about a SM Legion at 100.000 to state its exactly 100.000 all the time. Isn't it obvious why such numbers are used? Consider them as 87.439 instead of 100.000.
100k is easy to run with. And so is 1k...

I'm not sure where the argument is anyhow. The basic idea of the 1000 men per Chapter is more or less 'We don't want huge numbers of Space Marines going bad and creating a second Heresy.' Some Legions (like the Ultramarines) adhere to the letter of that ruling, by and large, but its impossible to hold to it absolutely (what are you going to do, kill the 1001st Marine you inadvertently created?) simply because there's too many variables in the creation process and losses (and other factors) are unpredictable.

But I think it can be safely said that virtually ALL the chapters adhere to the spirit of the limit, which basically can be described as 'no more Legions'. It's not a hard and fast rule, per se, and while it makes some uneasy it can be permitted in some cases (purportedly, the Black Templars) but its also clear it won't be tolerated in others (Eg the Astral Claws.)

A million marines is, like a million worlds, more an approximation based on the best information they have, and at any given time the figure may be higher or lower (based on numbers of chapters, numbers per chapter, losses incurred, etc.) due to aforementioned factors.

Although I would argue that its quite unlikely the setting will ever indicate hundreds of millions or billions of marines ever. You might get that many Sisters of Battle, however...

Edit: Also arguments over 'interpretation' are likely not to go anywhere because any discussion is about interpretation, even if you restrict yourself to codex material or whatever. 40K has always taken a stance of 'we keep things reasonably vague and open ended so people can tailor the universe to their desires' aspect. Thats why (for example) there are two missing Legions as well as numerous spinoff Chapters from the original Legions, why the Imperial Guard can encompass spear wielding barbarians to Mobile Infantry, etc.

Don't forget the Black Templars, they are well over 6000 marines. Many of the fleet based chapters seem to be much larger especially when each company takes recruitment upon itself.

Connor MacLeod wrote:You might get that many Sisters of Battle, however...

Well ... probably not per GW's fluff. There's a lot of interpretation involved, but the available material makes their numbers look smaller than those of the Astartes. They are also more dispersed, however, at times even with just a single Sister on a world guarding some holy shrine.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Also arguments over 'interpretation' are likely not to go anywhere because any discussion is about interpretation, even if you restrict yourself to codex material or whatever. 40K has always taken a stance of 'we keep things reasonably vague and open ended so people can tailor the universe to their desires' aspect.

Hmm, there's some truth to that, but I would add that some things may seem more "fixed" in fluff originating from a specific source (even though they could still be described in a different way elsewhere), as opposed to being so vague that you would have to make wild guesses. For example, the "Codex standard = 10 companies, 10 squads, 10 Marines" does mean some very solid numbers that are difficult to work around without simply declaring them nonsense, like some do. The way I see it, GW simply added the concept of "supernumaries" as a cop-out excuse to explain how stuff like Chaplains and Apothecaries (etc) fits in there, and the multi-role capability as infantry/driver (heavily present especially in the Reserve Companies) as a way to explain vehicle deployment. But obviously, not everyone will agree as they have a different ... interpretation! Wherever it results from.

I guess what I'm trying to say, there are "layers of interpretation" defined by their acceptance in the community. How many people would disagree with all Space Marines being male, for example?

UNREALPwnage wrote:Don't forget the Black Templars, they are well over 6000 marines. Many of the fleet based chapters seem to be much larger especially when each company takes recruitment upon itself.

Indeed. Well, ... five- to six-thousand, "if certain accounts are taken to be true". I suppose it is safe to say that only the Black Templars themselves would know for sure, and even their own estimates are likely to be off by a certain margin, due to the delays involved with astropathic communication and interstellar travel. The Black Templars are "all over the place", fighting their crusades on all fronts and having numerous small Chapter Keeps across Imperial space that ship off successfully initiated recruits a dozen a pack.

/nitpick

 Lynata wrote:
]Well ... probably not per GW's fluff. There's a lot of interpretation involved, but the available material makes their numbers look smaller than those of the Astartes. They are also more dispersed, however, at times even with just a single Sister on a world guarding some holy shrine.

GW constantly contradicts itself by a combination of either injecting old/new grimdark into the cycle and/or recycling stuff because its cheaper than coming up with new things. I tend to ignore the actual numbers in light of the fact you can have scores or hundreds of sisters literally in every sector guarding important Ecclesiarchal shrines, worlds, tombs, and even the most trivial junk. And that doesn't include those on the Black Ships, off Crusading for the glory of the Emperor, etc.

Seriously, they either have way more sisters than is stated, or they've got a magical time-dilation loaves-and-fishes effect going on simultaneously across the Imperium. Although if you want to be really pedantic its not likely that Sisters of Battle numbers are fixed either. They could fluctuate from tens of thousands to millions and back again for various reasons and it wouldn't be contradictory. They're easier to recruit and train than Space Marines, but they're just as prone to losses and the latest edition has made expansion and contraction of the Imperial forces sizes (and their borders) rather cyclical anyhow.

Hmm, there's some truth to that, but I would add that some things may seem more "fixed" in fluff originating from a specific source (even though they could still be described in a different way elsewhere), as opposed to being so vague that you would have to make wild guesses. For example, the "Codex standard = 10 companies, 10 squads, 10 Marines" does mean some very solid numbers that are difficult to work around without simply declaring them nonsense, like some do. The way I see it, GW simply added the concept of "supernumaries" as a cop-out excuse to explain how stuff like Chaplains and Apothecaries (etc) fits in there, and the multi-role capability as infantry/driver (heavily present especially in the Reserve Companies) as a way to explain vehicle deployment. But obviously, not everyone will agree as they have a different ... interpretation! Wherever it results from.

The GW-oriented fluff has an annoying habit of saying one thing and then turning around and saying another. We get bombarded with the idea that the Imperium is so vast and the Administratum is so bureaucratic that they don't really know how big it is and how many people are in it (or how many in their armies they field) that the time dilation and unpredictability of the warp for communication and travel make reliable coordination between worlds impossible.... and then we also get told everything is standardized, they know the goings on across the galaxy, and they're able to organize and dictate how the militaries will function (when the intention originally was they couldn't centrally organize or control armies, so they had to leave it to agents and local control.)

That's all the same sort of author interpretation you get with the novels, FFG stuff and other spinoff materials, and to that you can usually add the problem that every few years they decide to release a new edition that may change things around (CF 5th edition and the changes to the Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons.) And then there's all the advertising they do (which certainly makes it sound like its ACCEPTED - they try to push the books and forge world stuff on you quite a bit) Add to that the bias inherent in the codexes (they have natural bias towards their own subjects) and you really get a formula where the 'source' material is no better or worse than the rest of the fluff material.

I guess what I'm trying to say, there are "layers of interpretation" defined by their acceptance in the community. How many people would disagree with all Space Marines being male, for example?

There's nothing but interpretation, and all the argument that come up stem from people arguing whose interpretation is better. CF anything involving Matt Ward. Leaving it open ended like that is nothing but a benefit to them: It lets people make up their own explantions to fill in the gaps in the universe (so they don't have to, or can let some other author do it) and in case of things like CONTRADICTION they can just invoke 'interpretation/myth/point of view/things are fuzzy' to explain it away. Win win for them.

Connor MacLeod wrote:GW constantly contradicts itself by a combination of either injecting old/new grimdark into the cycle and/or recycling stuff because its cheaper than coming up with new things. I tend to ignore the actual numbers in light of the fact you can have scores or hundreds of sisters literally in every sector guarding important Ecclesiarchal shrines, worlds, tombs, and even the most trivial junk. And that doesn't include those on the Black Ships, off Crusading for the glory of the Emperor, etc.

But that's just it, is it truly a "fact", or are you merely making assumptions? For example, where were the Sisters of Battle during the Battle for Bladen?


Defended merely by the attendant clergy and a regiment of Cadians, there were no SoB to be found. And it kind of fits to their presence elsewhere in the fluff, too:



I know what -I- see as the least represented force on those charts. Not that I am necessarily disputing that there'd be - on average - having a score of Sisters for each sector (with more here and less there) ... but how many sectors would the Imperium have? I guess this is something we do not know either.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Seriously, they either have way more sisters than is stated, or they've got a magical time-dilation loaves-and-fishes effect going on simultaneously across the Imperium.

The Major Orders simply have very fast ships. The Minor Orders on the other hand are spread out all across the galaxy, although we hear little of them as they are usually of no consequence for the truly important battles due to their low numbers. From how it looks like, I would say that the bulk of offensive operations are carried out by the highly mobile Major Orders, whereas the Minor ones are limited both due to their small size as well as to a relatively fixed position - unless there is a defense to be mounted or an Inquisitor needs assistance, they have little to do but to guard, train and pray - and to carry out all those minor tasks such as protecting pilgrim routes, playing bodyguard and occasionally enforcing Ecclesiarchal law etc. This share of duties would work out well, I think, and be in line with what we have seen so far.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Although if you want to be really pedantic its not likely that Sisters of Battle numbers are fixed either. They could fluctuate from tens of thousands to millions and back again for various reasons and it wouldn't be contradictory. They're easier to recruit and train than Space Marines, but they're just as prone to losses and the latest edition has made expansion and contraction of the Imperial forces sizes (and their borders) rather cyclical anyhow.

They do fluctuate, this was established in the 2E Codex already:

"On occasion, an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

Of course, that is referring solely to the six Major Orders - the Minor Orders seem to be around a hundred to a few hundred Sisters strong each, at least according to what the books said so far.
I don't agree on them being easier to train, though. Aside from the high cost of their lavishly wasteful equipment, the excessive physical and mental requirements do seem to limit the pool of candidates somwhat, and being trained from infancy means that a fully-fledged Sister of Battle takes at least 15-20 years to "make". Might explain why it took the Ecclesiarchy 2.500 years to expand the Orders Militant from 10k to 30k, though such an excessive timespan also hints at political and/or financial hindrances.
In comparison, how long do you need for a Space Marine? Index Astartes says that a Marine "usually joins the ranks as a full brother between the ages of 16-18". Add this to the fact they are recruited at age 10-14 and you'll see they are actually pretty fast to create.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The GW-oriented fluff has an annoying habit of saying one thing and then turning around and saying another. We get bombarded with the idea that the Imperium is so vast and the Administratum is so bureaucratic that they don't really know how big it is and how many people are in it (or how many in their armies they field) that the time dilation and unpredictability of the warp for communication and travel make reliable coordination between worlds impossible.... and then we also get told everything is standardized, they know the goings on across the galaxy, and they're able to organize and dictate how the militaries will function (when the intention originally was they couldn't centrally organize or control armies, so they had to leave it to agents and local control.)

I don't see the contradiction, but I do see that you are exaggerating. What standards are there, exactly? For the Imperial Guard, the only truly standard item is the lasgun (directly stated as such in the 5E Guard Codex). True, vehicles - for regiments that actually have them (which are certainly not all) are also somewhat standardised, but then again I do not see the problem in having blueprints disseminated across Imperial space when the IoM had several millennia to do so. And then? Any other standardisation exists only within tightly-knight and comparatively small organisations who are able to keep in contact with their members on a somewhat regular basis. Laws aren't standardised, governments aren't standardised, religion is not standardised, military hierarchy isn't standardised, ...

Connor MacLeod wrote:That's all the same sort of author interpretation you get with the novels, FFG stuff and other spinoff materials, and to that you can usually add the problem that every few years they decide to release a new edition that may change things around (CF 5th edition and the changes to the Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons.) And then there's all the advertising they do (which certainly makes it sound like its ACCEPTED - they try to push the books and forge world stuff on you quite a bit) Add to that the bias inherent in the codexes (they have natural bias towards their own subjects) and you really get a formula where the 'source' material is no better or worse than the rest of the fluff material.

That is something where I actually agree, and I do believe that fluff debates on this forum would greatly benefit if there was some requirement to define "valid sources" whenever a new topic gets posted, so that everybody knows what the OP wants to talk about. Plus, the blogs and forum quotes of the authors and game designers agree with your (and my) assessment that all the sources are, in the end, only portraying different takes of the same setting.

That does not mean that we would not have any standards, though. The Emperor is the Emperor, Space Marines are male, etc. Also, from my experience, most people actually do take GW's fluff over the oursourced publications.
And as I said earlier, when a book does provide an obvious fact (such as the specifically mentioned 10x10x10 formula), then there should be no argueing about what this means - there can only be either "okay, that's it" or "I do not accept this source". Both answers would be fine, but how it felt like to me there were some few posters who preferred to argue around the issue, not wanting to outright say they prefer their own idea over the Codex fluff (even though that would be perfectly fine) yet still contesting what the text said. And that does not really benefit the discussion but simply leads to us running in circles and repeating what we already said before.

But what do you think about the fact that, with all the battles they fight and all the marine destroying weapons they face their numbers should decline with AT LEAST 200 a day?

bahzakhain wrote:
But what do you think about the fact that, with all the battles they fight and all the marine destroying weapons they face their numbers should decline with AT LEAST 200 a day?

I don't agree because it is quite a challenge to actually kill a space marine with all of the genetic enhancements. Instead of death when a marine takes to much trauma he goes into a hibernation of sorts to preserve himself while he waits for the attention of an apothecary. So I don't think they lose that many warriors day to day but may have to give medical attention to about that many per day and not all of those are hibernating cases.

In short: Space Marines are hard to kill.

bahzakhain wrote:
But what do you think about the fact that, with all the battles they fight and all the marine destroying weapons they face their numbers should decline with AT LEAST 200 a day?

The Space Marines, in universe, probably fight very few straight up battles like you see in the 40K tabletop game, and almost never fight without the battlespace tipped ridiculously in their favor.

They are shock troops specialized in surgical strikes. Smashing a fly with a sledgehammer.

I don't often agree with Veteran Sergeant, but in this case I believe he has the right of it, more than Bloodfrenzy187. You can see what happens to Space Marines when they are not fighting a battle on their terms in the example of the Celestial Lions:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070404114806/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/clions.html

Tactical doctrines play a much bigger role than their genetical enhancements. Those merely give them a considerable edge - they do not make them semi-invulnerable.
At least not on GW's side of things; I'm sure some other author interpretations (in particular the so-called "bolter porn novels") may disagree. Matter of opinion, hence pick what you like more.

A 40k tabletop battle is a example of when things have not gone the way the marines wanted it too

A good way to say it, actually. I remember someone (was it Kaldor?) explained Epic 40k once, and that seems to be a much better representation of how Space Marines would "work" within the scope of the setting. Not by being more powerful than they are on the normal TT, but by having much better deployment options. Where this army stood out for pre-planning being as crucial (or even more!) than the actual fight.

Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

In the Fall of Damnos novel, the Ultramarines 2nd Company has 110 marines as frontline combatants. If counting vehicle crew and fleet personnel, there might be 130 marines in total.

I also really hate how they keep stating that each chapter strictly has 1000 marines. That number is preposterous. There are garrison/training/special operative units that don't belong to any of the 10 generic companies in particular. So a chapter should have 1500 marines, though not all of them are combat-ready.

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

I don't think Chapters merging is particularly common, but there are certainly Chapters who are less concerned about arbitrary size restrictions - the Black Templars and Space Wolves being the most prominent examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bibotot wrote:

I also really hate how they keep stating that each chapter strictly has 1000 marines. .

I don't think they've ever actually said that. The Codex Astartes says that a Chapter should be 1000, but actual numbers in each Chapter have always varied.

It's worth considering though that while yes, there are auxiliary Marines who fall outside the normal 10 Companies, Battle Companies are rarely at full strength, and the size of the Scout company is wildly variable... and I don't think they've ever stated outright whether those scouts actually count towards the 1000 marine limit.

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes. Officially, they deny going over it. But if you just do a cursory tally of all of their various crusading forces the chapter has to be at least 10k marines strong, probably more. Its tolerated because ain't nobody got time to bother and they're on our side so...

But yeah, the 1k marines limit is not an exact hardline number. Even if you go over the official Ultramarine list, a full strength chapter will pretty much always come in at the 1200-1300ish number. You basically cannot hit the 100 marines per company over 10 companies and still have leftover space for ancillary marines like Librarians, Tech Marines, command, etc... It is clear, at least indirectly, that it is more of a guideline than a hardfast rule. Most chapters are going to be under-strength the vast majority of the time anyway and it is a pretty much unenforceable rule.

The only way a chapter is going to get in trouble for breaking it is if they are also doing other shady stuff and the Imperium needs a pretext to bring the hammer down.

"I know the Blue Dragons are secret heretics, but I don't have any proof. Oh? They're non-codex compliant and well over their limit? Well, I guess we can kick the door in on that pretext and uncover their heresy!"

 Grey Templar wrote:

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes.

Any other Loyalist chapters well known for being non-compliant that come to mind?

Soleil wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes.

Any other Loyalist chapters well known for being non-compliant that come to mind?

Well, there was the Astral Claws - until they went renegade.

Space Wolves are fundamentally non-compliant in their structure. Not sure on the latest fluff about actual number of marines though.

Black Templars because Astartes Chapters on Crusade don't have limits on numbers so the Templars just go on Crusade forever.
The Vylka Fenryka (Space Wolves for you Gothic folk) operate with 12 (13 technically) Great Companies that completely ignore Codex restrictions. When Krom Dragongaze encountered some of the first Primaris Wolves, he adopted them all into his own Great Company and IIRC they numbered at about 100-150.
The Exorcists maintain 2 Scout Companies as their particular method of induction into the Chapter is highly perilous and as such extra recruiting capacity is needed.

bibotot wrote:
In the Fall of Damnos novel, the Ultramarines 2nd Company has 110 marines as frontline combatants. If counting vehicle crew and fleet personnel, there might be 130 marines in total.

A Company having more than 100 Marines in the field isn't uncommon as Reserve Company(6-9) Marines assigned to assist a Battle Company are temporarily added to the Company(hence squad markings for 11 or above). In addition, Marine vehicle pilots are either Techmarines(not counted as part of the 1000 fighting Marines) or members of the 6th/7th. So the 2nd Company fielding 130 Marines in Fall of Damnos is neither out of the norm nor is it a noteworthy occurence.

In the lead up to the Badab war, Huron built up the Astral Claws to larger than chapter strength*. He was frowned upon for this but not strictly reprimanded.
*although it was also later revealed that their actual strength was even greater still.

The codex is definitely more guidelines, and although Imperial hierarchy will frown upon those that stray, if they're still getting results slights like being over strength or whatever can be hand waved.


Of course, the Astral Claws descended into outright seccession and later even full blown heresy, but at the time the strength was permitted.

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

Astral/Tiger Claws. Spoiler alert, that didn't end well for them.

People like to claim BT or SW, but both of these chapters are still Codex compliant. It's just that the Codex allows the tenth, scout company rise above 100 if the chapter is currently crusading, giving loophole both chapters abuse. If you subtract scout equivalents from both chapters, though, both have below 900 allowed 'full' marines making them still legal.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes. Officially, they deny going over it. But if you just do a cursory tally of all of their various crusading forces the chapter has to be at least 10k marines strong, probably more. Its tolerated because ain't nobody got time to bother and they're on our side so...

What? Where the 10K number came from? The most I saw was 6K, and that was after BT fanboys added up all crusades on map (never mind these were hundreds of years apart so it might well be the same marine counted 7 or 8 times, not to mention they really inflate their numbers with not-scouts thanks to their really slow and inefficient teaching method by disposable meatshielding). Is this some sort of new retcon?

 Irbis wrote:
People like to claim BT or SW, but both of these chapters are still Codex compliant. It's just that the Codex allows the tenth, scout company rise above 100 if the chapter is currently crusading, giving loophole both chapters abuse. If you subtract scout equivalents from both chapters, though, both have below 900 allowed 'full' marines making them still legal.

Except that just isn't true. The Wolves explicitly have 12 Great Companies that do not conform to Codex standards and do not have a Scout Company. In fact, they don't utilise Scouts in the same way Codex Chapters do. Space Wolves Initiates are elevated to the Blood Claws to give them a chance to shed their youthful recklessness and battle lust before maturing and becoming a Grey Hunter. Wolf Scouts are formed from fully-fledged Wolves who show signs of being a loner, unsuited to the pack mentality of regular Space Wolf units, and are transferred to a new unit to learn to be hunters, commanded only by the Great Wolf of the Chapter. They are already veterans of the Chapter rather than newbloods like in Codex Chapters.
Each Great Company acts as its own army, with all the vehicles, ships, and equipment they could need. The Wolves equivalent 1st Company is also commanded by the Great Wolf rather than a Captain. The Great Companies vary in strength and could easily range between 50 Marines and 200.

Holy necro thread bat man!

But that aside, to the best of my knowlege the 1000 space marine number is more of a rough target, where actual number of marines in a champter might be give or take another 300 to 400 with them filling support rules and pilot roles and such, but the 1000 is the number they try and keep it around.

As far as exceptions to this rule. I personally know of 3.
Crusading chapters: Notable example of this being the black templars. Chapters who are crusading are allowed to keep more then 1000 members of a fighting force because their losses are usually a lot higher and need the numbers to support that.

Space wolves: Who collectively told girly man lol go sit on a eldar pike we are not doing that come to our frozen home world and make us nerd.

Then the third exception to this is:

Dark angels: Who technically never split up into chapters on the back end. Lion though the idea was horrible stupid, so what happend was, the Dark angels "Split" but in actuality, they are all still under the command of azrael, and take order from him, they just keep it secret.

The wolves are a little big, but not so much that people are going to call out a first founding chapter over it.

The crusade loophole the BT use doesn’t just allow scouts, but full marines. IIRC. If they weren’t fanatically devoted and doing the Emperor’s work, someone might have tried to call them on it, but the risk/reward on that is way off, and they are technically following the rules. Plus they are smeared across the galaxy, so not really mustering to overthrow anyone.

The Ultramarines often get some criticism for being too close to their Successors, people claiming they've functionally one large chapter.

Ultimately the Imperium isn't as tyrannical as is often depicted, at least not on a macro-scale.

Chapters like the Space Wolves get a free pass on the rules because they're so old and renowned, and they have a proven track record of going after the enemy. Why be so quick to enforce rules to a friend's detriment?

Black Templars use the loophole that chapter numbers can be expanded whilst on a crusade (to pre-emptively account for losses incurred whilst away from home for an extended period). They've just taken it to extremes it was never intended for. I'm sure we've all met the type at a tournament.

I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

If they are heresy era they would probably not adopt primaris to begin with, imagine pulling a puritans from the 1700s into modern day USA and convening them that this car that goes 80mph is totally normal and safe.

Since they are "Your dudes" they can do what ever they like.

If your trying find out "Would this be cringe to making my dudes be xyz or would this make them way to super special" then i would say heresy era accepting pirmaris would be skirting that line, for me.

If i were to take your concept to make your dudes seem more uhhhh whats the word here, acceptable? believable? I would say they were a chapter of black shields from the Horus Heresy that were mainly made up of Ultramarines that were lost to the warp and ended up in the 40k time line and just dont play by any ones rules for chapter/crusaders. Then jsut go around doing the emperors work as they see fit. Could just use primaris models and run them as such.

Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

So these Astartes are mid-Heresy who have been sent to the future through Warp Shenanigans to the end of M.41 and then crossed the Rubicon Primaris in time for the Indomitus Crusade, yes?
Firstly, they would act like Ultramarines. They wouldn't have their own culture or even their own homeworld and would be cookie-cutter Legion-era Astartes.
Secondly, as they were Legion Astartes they would have that extra bit of reverence and obedience for their Primarch, Guilliman. They're going to obey without question and chances are he isn't going to let 1800 hardened warriors stick together. They'd likely be split into far more than 1 Chapter, rather they would form the Chapter Command as well as its senior officers and squad leaders for up to 18 new Chapters. They'd very likely adapt to the Codex but then they're still just going to be direct copies of the Ultramarines rather than anything distinct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The Ultramarines often get some criticism for being too close to their Successors, people claiming they've functionally one large chapter.

Depends on the Successor really. The Emperor's Spears can't stand their founders and actively shunned them pre-Rift. That the Ultramarines lineage is the largest and most widespread also leads to their Successors adopting hugely divergent cultures to their parent Chapter. The Libators for example are a brutal Chapter, known for letting the blood of defeated foes as an offering to the Emperor and their Primarch. The Mortifactors take the skulls of defeated enemies as trophies, with some even grafting them onto their helmets.
The Dark Angels Successors, on the other hand, are far more an informal Legion than the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. The Inner Circles and Supreme Grand Masters of each Chapter are all heavily interconnected and when hunting the Fallen they will band together under the Dark Angel's leadership until the mission is complete. In fact, there is only one Successor, the Prime Absolvers, who don't care about the Fallen and see themselves as free from the burdens of their parent Chapter.
For the Ultramarines, and to a lesser degree the Imperial Fists post-War of the Beast, it's more "Wow you guys are our founders, can I have an autograph?" rather than "Ok we're basically all the same".

 Gert wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

So these Astartes are mid-Heresy who have been sent to the future through Warp Shenanigans to the end of M.41 and then crossed the Rubicon Primaris in time for the Indomitus Crusade, yes?
Firstly, they would act like Ultramarines. They wouldn't have their own culture or even their own homeworld and would be cookie-cutter Legion-era Astartes.
Secondly, as they were Legion Astartes they would have that extra bit of reverence and obedience for their Primarch, Guilliman. They're going to obey without question and chances are he isn't going to let 1800 hardened warriors stick together. They'd likely be split into far more than 1 Chapter, rather they would form the Chapter Command as well as its senior officers and squad leaders for up to 18 new Chapters. They'd very likely adapt to the Codex but then they're still just going to be direct copies of the Ultramarines rather than anything distinct.

Welp, back to the drawing board then. I'll have to figure out something else for the background then, and I may need to stick with the dumb 1k limit and codex progression. For now, I'll just focus on getting them painted.

I think we shouldn't use planet Earth as the baseline measure of what a planet would have. Planet Earth would likely be considered a very high populated world with extremely high infrastructure and defended appropriately as well. In contrast, most other planets would be much more sparsely populated because of climate, atmosphere, etc.

So, for the average planet that is far more sparsely populated, maybe 100 space marines are more than enough to handle anything on the planet. Even if there is a rebellion, or chaos or xenos raid. Nobody is bring a legion worth of forces to raid a sparsely populated world.

In the lore, when we read about epic battles, that are involving multiple factions and massive armies all around, its usually a key world or system that is heavily populated, with a lot of infrastructure and heavily defended as well.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

So these Astartes are mid-Heresy who have been sent to the future through Warp Shenanigans to the end of M.41 and then crossed the Rubicon Primaris in time for the Indomitus Crusade, yes?
Firstly, they would act like Ultramarines. They wouldn't have their own culture or even their own homeworld and would be cookie-cutter Legion-era Astartes.
Secondly, as they were Legion Astartes they would have that extra bit of reverence and obedience for their Primarch, Guilliman. They're going to obey without question and chances are he isn't going to let 1800 hardened warriors stick together. They'd likely be split into far more than 1 Chapter, rather they would form the Chapter Command as well as its senior officers and squad leaders for up to 18 new Chapters. They'd very likely adapt to the Codex but then they're still just going to be direct copies of the Ultramarines rather than anything distinct.

Welp, back to the drawing board then. I'll have to figure out something else for the background then, and I may need to stick with the dumb 1k limit and codex progression. For now, I'll just focus on getting them painted.

Remember, it’s a big universe, and a lot of things can happen. Especially with Your Guys.

An alternative take would be RG recognizing the use of a unified coherent force, but also the modern restrictions. He sends them on a crusade against <target> so they are technically allowed to be over strength (with the same loophole the BT use). Once they prove their loyalty (and attrition has gotten them down to about 1,000 marines) they are granted recruitment rights/homeworld, and can start life as a modern chapter.

Being of UM stock, they would probably fall into line with the modern practices, but might hold on to some legion habits.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

If they are heresy era they would probably not adopt primaris to begin with, imagine pulling a puritans from the 1700s into modern day USA and convening them that this car that goes 80mph is totally normal and safe.

Since they are "Your dudes" they can do what ever they like.

If your trying find out "Would this be cringe to making my dudes be xyz or would this make them way to super special" then i would say heresy era accepting pirmaris would be skirting that line, for me.

If i were to take your concept to make your dudes seem more uhhhh whats the word here, acceptable? believable? I would say they were a chapter of black shields from the Horus Heresy that were mainly made up of Ultramarines that were lost to the warp and ended up in the 40k time line and just dont play by any ones rules for chapter/crusaders. Then jsut go around doing the emperors work as they see fit. Could just use primaris models and run them as such.

I would think that Heresy-era Ultramarines space-magicked into the "present day" would be fairly comfortable with the Primaris concept and organization. They have come directly from 30K, so they are not weighed down by 10K years of tradition. The single-weapon type squad organization would be familiar. Additionally, the Heresy-era folks come from a more advanced time, so the 1700s Puritan time-travelled to modern day USA analogy doesn't really hold. If the Primarch said "Go cross the Rubicon-Primaris my sons" they would very likely say "Ok dad!"

Unless of course you want your cringe head-cannon to be different for your dudes.