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Made in pl
Fresh-Faced New User




Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/03 22:25:41


 
   
Made in vn
Dakka Veteran




In the Fall of Damnos novel, the Ultramarines 2nd Company has 110 marines as frontline combatants. If counting vehicle crew and fleet personnel, there might be 130 marines in total.

I also really hate how they keep stating that each chapter strictly has 1000 marines. That number is preposterous. There are garrison/training/special operative units that don't belong to any of the 10 generic companies in particular. So a chapter should have 1500 marines, though not all of them are combat-ready.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

I don't think Chapters merging is particularly common, but there are certainly Chapters who are less concerned about arbitrary size restrictions - the Black Templars and Space Wolves being the most prominent examples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bibotot wrote:

I also really hate how they keep stating that each chapter strictly has 1000 marines. .

I don't think they've ever actually said that. The Codex Astartes says that a Chapter should be 1000, but actual numbers in each Chapter have always varied.

It's worth considering though that while yes, there are auxiliary Marines who fall outside the normal 10 Companies, Battle Companies are rarely at full strength, and the size of the Scout company is wildly variable... and I don't think they've ever stated outright whether those scouts actually count towards the 1000 marine limit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/04 02:33:44


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?


Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes. Officially, they deny going over it. But if you just do a cursory tally of all of their various crusading forces the chapter has to be at least 10k marines strong, probably more. Its tolerated because ain't nobody got time to bother and they're on our side so...

But yeah, the 1k marines limit is not an exact hardline number. Even if you go over the official Ultramarine list, a full strength chapter will pretty much always come in at the 1200-1300ish number. You basically cannot hit the 100 marines per company over 10 companies and still have leftover space for ancillary marines like Librarians, Tech Marines, command, etc... It is clear, at least indirectly, that it is more of a guideline than a hardfast rule. Most chapters are going to be under-strength the vast majority of the time anyway and it is a pretty much unenforceable rule.

The only way a chapter is going to get in trouble for breaking it is if they are also doing other shady stuff and the Imperium needs a pretext to bring the hammer down.

"I know the Blue Dragons are secret heretics, but I don't have any proof. Oh? They're non-codex compliant and well over their limit? Well, I guess we can kick the door in on that pretext and uncover their heresy!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 03:45:58


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Made in pl
Fresh-Faced New User




 Grey Templar wrote:
Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?


Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes.


Any other Loyalist chapters well known for being non-compliant that come to mind?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/04 10:14:08


 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Soleil wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?


Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes.


Any other Loyalist chapters well known for being non-compliant that come to mind?



Well, there was the Astral Claws - until they went renegade.
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Space Wolves are fundamentally non-compliant in their structure. Not sure on the latest fluff about actual number of marines though.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Black Templars because Astartes Chapters on Crusade don't have limits on numbers so the Templars just go on Crusade forever.
The Vylka Fenryka (Space Wolves for you Gothic folk) operate with 12 (13 technically) Great Companies that completely ignore Codex restrictions. When Krom Dragongaze encountered some of the first Primaris Wolves, he adopted them all into his own Great Company and IIRC they numbered at about 100-150.
The Exorcists maintain 2 Scout Companies as their particular method of induction into the Chapter is highly perilous and as such extra recruiting capacity is needed.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

bibotot wrote:
In the Fall of Damnos novel, the Ultramarines 2nd Company has 110 marines as frontline combatants. If counting vehicle crew and fleet personnel, there might be 130 marines in total.


A Company having more than 100 Marines in the field isn't uncommon as Reserve Company(6-9) Marines assigned to assist a Battle Company are temporarily added to the Company(hence squad markings for 11 or above). In addition, Marine vehicle pilots are either Techmarines(not counted as part of the 1000 fighting Marines) or members of the 6th/7th. So the 2nd Company fielding 130 Marines in Fall of Damnos is neither out of the norm nor is it a noteworthy occurence.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/03/07 17:17:44


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Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

In the lead up to the Badab war, Huron built up the Astral Claws to larger than chapter strength*. He was frowned upon for this but not strictly reprimanded.
*although it was also later revealed that their actual strength was even greater still.

The codex is definitely more guidelines, and although Imperial hierarchy will frown upon those that stray, if they're still getting results slights like being over strength or whatever can be hand waved.


Of course, the Astral Claws descended into outright seccession and later even full blown heresy, but at the time the strength was permitted.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Soleil wrote:
Let me dig this thread up as this is a quick question and you will probably know the answer.

Are there any Loyalist chapters in the lore which try to go as big as possible? Like do not care about the size limit (even approximate) at all but recruit and merge with others to expand while Still being consider loyalist?

Astral/Tiger Claws. Spoiler alert, that didn't end well for them.

People like to claim BT or SW, but both of these chapters are still Codex compliant. It's just that the Codex allows the tenth, scout company rise above 100 if the chapter is currently crusading, giving loophole both chapters abuse. If you subtract scout equivalents from both chapters, though, both have below 900 allowed 'full' marines making them still legal.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Black Templars. They give exactly zero effs about the Codex Astartes. Officially, they deny going over it. But if you just do a cursory tally of all of their various crusading forces the chapter has to be at least 10k marines strong, probably more. Its tolerated because ain't nobody got time to bother and they're on our side so...

What? Where the 10K number came from? The most I saw was 6K, and that was after BT fanboys added up all crusades on map (never mind these were hundreds of years apart so it might well be the same marine counted 7 or 8 times, not to mention they really inflate their numbers with not-scouts thanks to their really slow and inefficient teaching method by disposable meatshielding). Is this some sort of new retcon?
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 Irbis wrote:
People like to claim BT or SW, but both of these chapters are still Codex compliant. It's just that the Codex allows the tenth, scout company rise above 100 if the chapter is currently crusading, giving loophole both chapters abuse. If you subtract scout equivalents from both chapters, though, both have below 900 allowed 'full' marines making them still legal.

Except that just isn't true. The Wolves explicitly have 12 Great Companies that do not conform to Codex standards and do not have a Scout Company. In fact, they don't utilise Scouts in the same way Codex Chapters do. Space Wolves Initiates are elevated to the Blood Claws to give them a chance to shed their youthful recklessness and battle lust before maturing and becoming a Grey Hunter. Wolf Scouts are formed from fully-fledged Wolves who show signs of being a loner, unsuited to the pack mentality of regular Space Wolf units, and are transferred to a new unit to learn to be hunters, commanded only by the Great Wolf of the Chapter. They are already veterans of the Chapter rather than newbloods like in Codex Chapters.
Each Great Company acts as its own army, with all the vehicles, ships, and equipment they could need. The Wolves equivalent 1st Company is also commanded by the Great Wolf rather than a Captain. The Great Companies vary in strength and could easily range between 50 Marines and 200.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Holy necro thread bat man!

But that aside, to the best of my knowlege the 1000 space marine number is more of a rough target, where actual number of marines in a champter might be give or take another 300 to 400 with them filling support rules and pilot roles and such, but the 1000 is the number they try and keep it around.

As far as exceptions to this rule. I personally know of 3.
Crusading chapters: Notable example of this being the black templars. Chapters who are crusading are allowed to keep more then 1000 members of a fighting force because their losses are usually a lot higher and need the numbers to support that.

Space wolves: Who collectively told girly man lol go sit on a eldar pike we are not doing that come to our frozen home world and make us nerd.

Then the third exception to this is:

Dark angels: Who technically never split up into chapters on the back end. Lion though the idea was horrible stupid, so what happend was, the Dark angels "Split" but in actuality, they are all still under the command of azrael, and take order from him, they just keep it secret.


To many unpainted models to count. 
   
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Upstate, New York

The wolves are a little big, but not so much that people are going to call out a first founding chapter over it.

The crusade loophole the BT use doesn’t just allow scouts, but full marines. IIRC. If they weren’t fanatically devoted and doing the Emperor’s work, someone might have tried to call them on it, but the risk/reward on that is way off, and they are technically following the rules. Plus they are smeared across the galaxy, so not really mustering to overthrow anyone.

   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

The Ultramarines often get some criticism for being too close to their Successors, people claiming they've functionally one large chapter.

Ultimately the Imperium isn't as tyrannical as is often depicted, at least not on a macro-scale.

Chapters like the Space Wolves get a free pass on the rules because they're so old and renowned, and they have a proven track record of going after the enemy. Why be so quick to enforce rules to a friend's detriment?

Black Templars use the loophole that chapter numbers can be expanded whilst on a crusade (to pre-emptively account for losses incurred whilst away from home for an extended period). They've just taken it to extremes it was never intended for. I'm sure we've all met the type at a tournament.
   
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I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)


If they are heresy era they would probably not adopt primaris to begin with, imagine pulling a puritans from the 1700s into modern day USA and convening them that this car that goes 80mph is totally normal and safe.

Since they are "Your dudes" they can do what ever they like.

If your trying find out "Would this be cringe to making my dudes be xyz or would this make them way to super special" then i would say heresy era accepting pirmaris would be skirting that line, for me.

If i were to take your concept to make your dudes seem more uhhhh whats the word here, acceptable? believable? I would say they were a chapter of black shields from the Horus Heresy that were mainly made up of Ultramarines that were lost to the warp and ended up in the 40k time line and just dont play by any ones rules for chapter/crusaders. Then jsut go around doing the emperors work as they see fit. Could just use primaris models and run them as such.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

So these Astartes are mid-Heresy who have been sent to the future through Warp Shenanigans to the end of M.41 and then crossed the Rubicon Primaris in time for the Indomitus Crusade, yes?
Firstly, they would act like Ultramarines. They wouldn't have their own culture or even their own homeworld and would be cookie-cutter Legion-era Astartes.
Secondly, as they were Legion Astartes they would have that extra bit of reverence and obedience for their Primarch, Guilliman. They're going to obey without question and chances are he isn't going to let 1800 hardened warriors stick together. They'd likely be split into far more than 1 Chapter, rather they would form the Chapter Command as well as its senior officers and squad leaders for up to 18 new Chapters. They'd very likely adapt to the Codex but then they're still just going to be direct copies of the Ultramarines rather than anything distinct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
The Ultramarines often get some criticism for being too close to their Successors, people claiming they've functionally one large chapter.

Depends on the Successor really. The Emperor's Spears can't stand their founders and actively shunned them pre-Rift. That the Ultramarines lineage is the largest and most widespread also leads to their Successors adopting hugely divergent cultures to their parent Chapter. The Libators for example are a brutal Chapter, known for letting the blood of defeated foes as an offering to the Emperor and their Primarch. The Mortifactors take the skulls of defeated enemies as trophies, with some even grafting them onto their helmets.
The Dark Angels Successors, on the other hand, are far more an informal Legion than the Ultramarines or Imperial Fists. The Inner Circles and Supreme Grand Masters of each Chapter are all heavily interconnected and when hunting the Fallen they will band together under the Dark Angel's leadership until the mission is complete. In fact, there is only one Successor, the Prime Absolvers, who don't care about the Fallen and see themselves as free from the burdens of their parent Chapter.
For the Ultramarines, and to a lesser degree the Imperial Fists post-War of the Beast, it's more "Wow you guys are our founders, can I have an autograph?" rather than "Ok we're basically all the same".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/07 22:49:09


 
   
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Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

So these Astartes are mid-Heresy who have been sent to the future through Warp Shenanigans to the end of M.41 and then crossed the Rubicon Primaris in time for the Indomitus Crusade, yes?
Firstly, they would act like Ultramarines. They wouldn't have their own culture or even their own homeworld and would be cookie-cutter Legion-era Astartes.
Secondly, as they were Legion Astartes they would have that extra bit of reverence and obedience for their Primarch, Guilliman. They're going to obey without question and chances are he isn't going to let 1800 hardened warriors stick together. They'd likely be split into far more than 1 Chapter, rather they would form the Chapter Command as well as its senior officers and squad leaders for up to 18 new Chapters. They'd very likely adapt to the Codex but then they're still just going to be direct copies of the Ultramarines rather than anything distinct.



Welp, back to the drawing board then. I'll have to figure out something else for the background then, and I may need to stick with the dumb 1k limit and codex progression. For now, I'll just focus on getting them painted.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think we shouldn't use planet Earth as the baseline measure of what a planet would have. Planet Earth would likely be considered a very high populated world with extremely high infrastructure and defended appropriately as well. In contrast, most other planets would be much more sparsely populated because of climate, atmosphere, etc.

So, for the average planet that is far more sparsely populated, maybe 100 space marines are more than enough to handle anything on the planet. Even if there is a rebellion, or chaos or xenos raid. Nobody is bring a legion worth of forces to raid a sparsely populated world.

In the lore, when we read about epic battles, that are involving multiple factions and massive armies all around, its usually a key world or system that is heavily populated, with a lot of infrastructure and heavily defended as well.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Arcanis161 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)

So these Astartes are mid-Heresy who have been sent to the future through Warp Shenanigans to the end of M.41 and then crossed the Rubicon Primaris in time for the Indomitus Crusade, yes?
Firstly, they would act like Ultramarines. They wouldn't have their own culture or even their own homeworld and would be cookie-cutter Legion-era Astartes.
Secondly, as they were Legion Astartes they would have that extra bit of reverence and obedience for their Primarch, Guilliman. They're going to obey without question and chances are he isn't going to let 1800 hardened warriors stick together. They'd likely be split into far more than 1 Chapter, rather they would form the Chapter Command as well as its senior officers and squad leaders for up to 18 new Chapters. They'd very likely adapt to the Codex but then they're still just going to be direct copies of the Ultramarines rather than anything distinct.



Welp, back to the drawing board then. I'll have to figure out something else for the background then, and I may need to stick with the dumb 1k limit and codex progression. For now, I'll just focus on getting them painted.


Remember, it’s a big universe, and a lot of things can happen. Especially with Your Guys.

An alternative take would be RG recognizing the use of a unified coherent force, but also the modern restrictions. He sends them on a crusade against <target> so they are technically allowed to be over strength (with the same loophole the BT use). Once they prove their loyalty (and attrition has gotten them down to about 1,000 marines) they are granted recruitment rights/homeworld, and can start life as a modern chapter.

Being of UM stock, they would probably fall into line with the modern practices, but might hold on to some legion habits.

   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
I have a custom chapter I've been making some lore for; basically some Ultramarines from the time of the Heresy get sent forward in time and get Primarisified.

If they weren't the most tip-top and pristine of Marines from the era anyways, and if they already numbered around 1800, would it make sense for them to crusade in 3 groups of 600? Or would it be more likely they follow Mr Spiritual Liege and split into two chapters of 900?

(Tangential bonus question, if they are from the Heresy era, would they adopt the while Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tac training path as laid out in the Codex Astartes or would it make more sense for them to train and assign at an as needed basis?)


If they are heresy era they would probably not adopt primaris to begin with, imagine pulling a puritans from the 1700s into modern day USA and convening them that this car that goes 80mph is totally normal and safe.

Since they are "Your dudes" they can do what ever they like.

If your trying find out "Would this be cringe to making my dudes be xyz or would this make them way to super special" then i would say heresy era accepting pirmaris would be skirting that line, for me.

If i were to take your concept to make your dudes seem more uhhhh whats the word here, acceptable? believable? I would say they were a chapter of black shields from the Horus Heresy that were mainly made up of Ultramarines that were lost to the warp and ended up in the 40k time line and just dont play by any ones rules for chapter/crusaders. Then jsut go around doing the emperors work as they see fit. Could just use primaris models and run them as such.


I would think that Heresy-era Ultramarines space-magicked into the "present day" would be fairly comfortable with the Primaris concept and organization. They have come directly from 30K, so they are not weighed down by 10K years of tradition. The single-weapon type squad organization would be familiar. Additionally, the Heresy-era folks come from a more advanced time, so the 1700s Puritan time-travelled to modern day USA analogy doesn't really hold. If the Primarch said "Go cross the Rubicon-Primaris my sons" they would very likely say "Ok dad!"

Unless of course you want your cringe head-cannon to be different for your dudes.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
 
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