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"And low the mightiest of the Imperium's warriors, the great Adeptus Astartes, Angels of Death, Space Marines. Formed into a thousand Chapters, each one a thousand strong."

It is clearly stated in many places that each Chapter is made up of EXACTLY 1000 Space Marines. No more, no less.
But the more I look at the Organisation charts, the Codexes and their background in general, this proves less and less to be true.

I shall explain what I mean.

Yes, each Company is made up of 10 Squads each 10 strong so yes, 100 x 10 is 1000.
But, each Company also has a dedicated Chaplain, a dedicated 5 strong Command Squad and a Captain. That's an extra 7 already; except of course the Scout Company who only have a Captain.
Not to mention that the Scout Company is constantly changing in numbers and in some Chapters has been known to exceed the ten squad limit.

Then you have the Librarian Department.
1 Chief Librarian, 5 Epistolaries, 10 Codiciers and 20 Lexicaniums on average, not to mention potential Lexicaniums. So on average another 36 Marines.

Then there's the Techmarines department.
1-3 Forge Masters, then at least one Techmarine per Company so at least 10. So that's another 11-13 Marines.

Another two to add to the list would be the Chapter Master and the Master of Sanctity.

Then, there are the Dreadnoughts. Every Chapter has at least 1 or so it seems.

Already so far thats 1114-1116 Marines.

THEN there's the Bike Squads (both Marine and Scout) and Land Speeder Squadrons to consider. Do they have dedicated riders and pilots or do certain marines just take up the role in certain circumstances?

I wont mention the vehicles though as its already covered by the fluff that they are driven and piloted by non-space marines. But then the Stormtalon is definately piloted by a Marine according to the model so are they really?

So, 1000 Space Marines per Chapter? I'm not convinced.

Bike Squads and Landspeeder Squads (atleast in the Ultramarines) are generally made up of the 6th/7th Tactical reserve companies, and are deployed in support of the Battle Companies.

It all really depends on if Scouts count as Marines for the purpose of the 1000 strong.

And I doubt they count Dreadnoughts, either, in that count. Dreadnoughts are revered, but not really marines anymore.

You also forgot honor guards. And Nephoytes undergoing the surgical processes. There is always a constant flux of recruits for chapters.

Space Marine Chapters have been estimated by many of us to be around 1,350

Scout companies do not have ten squads, they may have more or less. Matters on the chapter really.

And I agree the chapter must have dedicated drivers.

This has been argued to death many times before.

The consensus that I've seen is the thousand marines specifically is in reference to linemen only and that all chapters are expected to have separate support and command elements. You should also remember the context that the statement was made. The chapters were being pruned down from tens and hundreds of thousands of marines. There was going to be a little over and a little under anyway.

The Honour Guard is the title given to most 1st Company Command Squads as I understand it and not specifically a different unit??

Also, yes I agree actually that Dreadnoughts and Scouts would probably not be included as niether are truely Space Marines yet. Their Captain would be though.

Neophytes/Initiates would not be included as they are no were near being Space Marines yet.

And thank you for clearing up the Bike/Land Speeder issue.

As to the 1350 strong I must admit while designing my own it came to almost 1450 but I wont go into why here.

The Honor Guard are something entirely differant from the First Company.

As I understand it the Ultramarines have an entire company of Honor Guard (most likely not 100 men, but an entirely seperate command organization from the 1st-10th companies).

As noted above, command and support elements don't count. The 1000 marines group is referring specifically to the dedicated combat arm of a chapter.

djones520 wrote:
The Honor Guard are something entirely differant from the First Company.

As I understand it the Ultramarines have an entire company of Honor Guard (most likely not 100 men, but an entirely seperate command organization from the 1st-10th companies).

Actually, the 4th edition Codex mentions that the Ultramarines Honor Guard is dispersed throughout the companies when not formed into squads to protect the Banner of Macragge, at which time the squad will be formed from the members belonging to the company that bears the banner.

Games Workshop Index Astartes wrote:Following the Horus Heresy the Space Marine Legions were divided into Chapters consisting of roughly a thousand warriors. A large section of the Codex Astartes is dedicated to structuring the organisation of these Chapters. A Chapter consists of ten Companies each numbering 100 Space Marines. A Company consists of ten squads of ten men including a Sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting unit, each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary.

Every Company with the exception of the Scout Company maintains Rhino transports for their squads and officers. The 1st Company is also equipped with Land Raiders to carry Terminator squads. It is customary for Dreadnoughts to remain with their Company as their fearsome presence bolsters the Company’s fighting strength.

A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the Company organisation. These individuals are known as the Headquarters staff and they may be assigned to fight with a Company in battle. Included amongst them are psychic Librarians from the Chapter’s Librarius and Techmarines, together with their Servitors. Although the Codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the Headquarters staff, only a very few of these officers actually accompany the Chapter to war.

[...]

Companies 6 and 7 are Tactical Companies, each consisting of ten Tactical squads. These are intended to act as a reserve and may be used to reinforce the main battle line, launch diversionary attacks or stem enemy flanking moves. The 6th Company is also trained to fight on bikes and the entire Company may be deployed as bike squadrons. Similarly the 7th Company squads are trained to fight from Land Speeders enabling the Company to fight as a light vehicle reserve formation.

There also was something about the 1k limitation being "suspended" for Chapters engaged in prolonged conflict, as they will have to train replacements for battle casualties and the Adeptus Terra agrees that having some Marines more is better than having too few. I can't find the source right now, but there ya go.

The thousand marine limit only applies for the line companies. It doesn't include any marines belonging to support sections.

I did a rough calculation once and it came out to around 1500 marines per chapter, assuming full strength.

Of course no chapter is going to be full strength at all times.

It's more of a keeping to the spirit of the decree. Guilliman didn't care if you were somewhat under or over the limit, he just didn't want any one man able to command something approaching legion level strength.

I personally see it as 1000 basic battle brothers, so excluding the command and support staff etc.

It's roughly 1,000. Most go a little above or below that figure.

A Chapter fields roughly 1,000 Battle Brothers for combat missions plus headquarters, Librarium, Chaplain, and Armoury staff as well as fleet officers.

Perhaps casualties means a marine chapter is usually around 1000?

It definitely depends on the chapter, Dark Angels for example do not follow regular chapter organisation.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Space Marine Chapters have been estimated by many of us to be around 1,350

This.
Also this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Codex Astartes may indicate that the number cannot be past 1,000 but all chapters ( including Ultramarines ) have over 1,000 Astartes.
But giving that many of Chapters are undermanned ( some even have only 100 to 200 Marines ) their number is steadily around 1,000.000.

Chapters tend to be much bigger, these are the numbers of mine without the companies and all that.
Chapter fleet:
2 Battle barges
7 strike cruisers
30 Thunderhawk gunships
2 Thunderhawk Transporters
12 Rapid strike vessels.
Armoury:
27 Tech Marines
98 servitors
21 Predators
4 Vindicators
9 Whirlwinds
7 Land Raiders
Librarius:
5 Epistolaries
8 Codiciers
12 Lexicanum
4 Acolytum
Apothecaries:
23 Apothecaries
Reclusiam:
11 Chaplains
Logistician:
800 Chapter Equerries and servitors

Thanks Lynata for the extract from the Index Astartes.
I have not got the one which describes how a Chapter is organised (didn't know there was one) so I haven't read it.
Some of the older texts written about the Astartes definately made it clear that a Chapter would have no more than 1000 including Command Staff but I guess the idea has of course been modified over the years.

I agree with Rems01 on the point that I guess it's just a guideline number so that a power mad or over zealous Chapter Master isn't incharge of a Legion sized force anymore.

Cheers to all for clearing up certain points for me.

1000 battle brothers + Chaplains/Librarians/Apothacaries/Tecmarines

Also some chapters are allowed more than 1000 battle brothers because of geneseed purity (lack of mutation from the chapters basic gene-seed) such as the space Wolves who likely have 1300 Battle Brothers. My guess is that with the exception of the Black Templars (Whose loyalty must be incredible, with practically no negative mutation (Dorns successor chapters can't use the Betchers Gland or Sus-An Membrane)) is that no Chapter is allowed more than 2000 battle brothers as an absolute limit but 1000 is the preferred number. This would allow a chapter to keep all neophytes should more than the predicted amount survive the trials. It also seems like all the chapters that have broken the 1000 battle brother guideline without being declared Excomunnicae Traitoris are First or Second Founding chapters meaning their Primarch is known as well as what their Gene-seed should be.

Also, each company does not always have a dedicated 5 man Command Squad. The book "Insignium Astartes" pointed out that a Command Squad is ad hoc. Some Captains may want one, others will make do with a standard bearer only. Those who are in the command squad may be veterans from a line squad who are waiting for a 1st Company vacancy to appear (in effect Tactical Squad III may now only have nine marines but the Captain has a drinking buddy!). As others have stated, each squad may not have ten men due to injuries or deaths so exact numbers may be hard to judge at any one time.

The thing I've posted is for my own chapter ofc, but it is based on the BA one, and it includes all personel, next to marines.
It comes around 2000 marines total.

Most chapters would have less than a thousand anyway, because of losses.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Also this http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=291

Unfortunately, that article ignores some rather important bits of GW's fluff on the topic, such as the fact that Captains, Chaplains, Apothecaries, etc are officially not counted to the maximum, as well as the "multi-role" capability of the Astartes in that they can be deployed as infantry as well as vehicle crews (most notably from the Reserve Companies reinforcing the Battle Companies). The author lists the Index Astartes I as part of his research, so I can only assume this was some major oversight.

O'Raatol wrote:Thanks Lynata for the extract from the Index Astartes. I have not got the one which describes how a Chapter is organised (didn't know there was one) so I haven't read it.

That was in Index Astartes I, with the exact section titled "The Codex Astartes" - as all articles in these books have been printed before, it should also be in some White Dwarf, but sadly I cannot give you the issue number.

Agreed about the idea having been modified over the years. I think the writers at GW must have noticed that the numbers did not really add up back then. It seems many of the fans did not "catch up" yet, though (hence threads like these). GW keeps printing the 1k number, and by the point of having read it, the more detailed explanation occasionally given is apparently missed.
For example, I just noticed that half the Codex article from the Index Astartes was reprinted in the 5th edition Codex Space Marines (see page 24, "Chapter Organisation") - don't tell me that so many Marine fans in this thread did not read that book!

(sadly, the 5E Codex version is only a single page and misses out on the fancy charts, but do give it a look anyways; it's a rather interesting read and explains much that has been asked in this thread)

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I agree with Rems01 on the point that I guess it's just a guideline number so that a power mad or over zealous Chapter Master isn't incharge of a Legion sized force anymore.

Yeah, the Index Astartes outright states that the Adeptus Terra rarely sees it necessary to strictly enforce the Codex decrees, anyways. Supposedly, there is only one law that is an iron rule where Terra will not move an inch from their position and insist on it being followed to the letter, and that is regular geneseed scans to check for signs of taint.

amudkipz wrote:Also some chapters are allowed more than 1000 battle brothers because of geneseed purity (lack of mutation from the chapters basic gene-seed) such as the space Wolves who likely have 1300 Battle Brothers. My guess is that with the exception of the Black Templars (Whose loyalty must be incredible, with practically no negative mutation (Dorns successor chapters can't use the Betchers Gland or Sus-An Membrane)) is that no Chapter is allowed more than 2000 battle brothers as an absolute limit but 1000 is the preferred number. This would allow a chapter to keep all neophytes should more than the predicted amount survive the trials. It also seems like all the chapters that have broken the 1000 battle brother guideline without being declared Excomunnicae Traitoris are First or Second Founding chapters meaning their Primarch is known as well as what their Gene-seed should be.

The Black Templars are rumoured to be in excess of 5.000 Space Marines, even - it's just that they are scattered all across the galaxy and nigh-impossible to keep track of, so thanks to how Imperial bureaucracy and Warp travel / communication work, nobody can actually prove it. In addition, there's that exemption rule for Chapters engaged in a prolonged campaign, and the Black Templars could argue that their "eternal crusade" does count as such. Together with their apparent loyalty to the Imperium's cause, I'd say the High Lords and the Inquisition just do not feel too bothered by the reports about their size. This could well change if they ever gather in a single place and visibly display the Chapter's full might - but how likely would that be?
Added to that ... yes, the controlling bodies in the Imperium are indeed more lenient towards famous Chapters with a long and glorious history of service, most notably the loyalist Founding Chapters (including those that split off from the main body during the Second Founding) - this is briefly discussed in the "Rogue Sons" article of the Index Astartes.

Cannot agree regarding the Space Wolves, though - looking at their appearance and propensity to turn into slavering werewolves, their geneseed definitely appears tainted, and this is explicitly stated as such in the aforementioned Index Astartes article. Together with their history of reaction to the various Imperial organisations ... let's face it, the primary reason they are still there at the end of M41 is because they are the Space Wolves, the one big special snowflake exception from half the stuff we know a Space Marine should be.

And again, Space Marines really only work and make sense given a healthy suspension of disbelief and an understanding that 40k is a Fantasy universe not a SciFi one. Space Marines at 1000 chapters of 1000 strong don't work on just about any imaginable level when examined realistically.

I think "roughly a 1000" warriors means just that: maybe more, maybe less? It was a formula devised to de-centralize military power within the Empire following the Heresy and I feel is enforced as more of a dogma than law. Maybe 1000 warriors is all that the supply of gene-seed, alloted to each new Chapter by their parent Legion could support logisticaly for say, the next ten thousand years? It is definately a guideline and must only refer to "active" Line-Marines. Some Chapters, most notably the Black Templars, are in nearly blatant defience of the edict, shuffling their numbers between fleets, fudging their books and dodging imperial auditors for centuries now? It seems difficult to believe only 1000 Ultra Marines can rule the entire Ultramar system? When taking into account the support and staff and neophyte elements, each chapter must be comprised of several thousands of actual "members", not all of whom are Marines, and of which possibly up to a thousand or more could be "recruits" in training... imho?

Ok, assuming all companies(except scout company) have a command squad and 10 10 man squads.


1st-9th companies. 106 marines each = 954 marines

10 company. captain, 10 sergeants, and 90 inititates = 11 marines(initiates don't count)

Chapter Master and Honor Guard. Lets say, 20 honor guard. 21 marines.

Librariam. 5 Epistolaries and 10 Codiciers. 15 marines

Apothecarium. 10 apothecaries.

Reclusium. Reclusiarch and 5 subordiantes. 6 marines


Armory: 10 full techmarines and 20-30 junior techmarines. These pilot the various vehicles the chapter uses.

Fleet: Each ship has at least 1 marine as its captain, plus a squad to engage in boarding actions. so 11 marines per ship. A chapter with 1 battlebarge, 4-5 strike cruisers, and 20-30 escorts. Around 250ish marines.


So, total comes to around 1300

Yes it does seem to more or less be 1,300 give or take, but that sounds far less dramatic and simple for GW then simply one thousand.

Don't forget about losses.. There will likely always be less than 1k in each *normal* chapter because they fight so much.

The sensible math says that a Chapter is closer to 1500 Marines, and the 1000 refers to the line strength of 10 Companies x 100 Marines.


Simple math done on the Ultramarines force organization chart in the 3rd Edition Codex requires just over 400 Marines simply to crew all of the vehicles (not including bikes and land speeders, just tanks, aircraft, etc). Unless they permanently diffuse the Reserve companies (and thus losing 40% of their fighting strength, along with all the "capabilities" those companies are supposed to provide, as well as casualty replacement), there's no way that the Chapter operates with only 1000 Marines. It's also important to note that the TOE for the Ultramarines even seems like it is woefully incomplete for the assets the Chapter should actually have.

This doesn't even begin to take into account the other kinds of ancillaries that would be involved. Though it is possible that "retired" Marines who were no longer combat capable could fill some roles.

The bottom line is this:

The guys who came up with the fluff have no idea how a real world military unit operates, and simply didn't take it into account when they wrote said fluff.

Once you accept that the 1000 refers only to line fighting strength, it becomes less of a problem. Then the Marines who are part of the Armory (vehicle crews, Techmarines, etc) don't count against the number. It's the Obi Wan Kenobi defense. What they told you is true, from a certain point of view.

Ok I got the fact there would be losses the first time it was mentioned.
I was trying to get an idea of people's general concenses on how many there would be if the Chapter were basically at full strength and followed a general pattern.
Including losses would be too random to give an accurate estimate.

So as I take it the general answer is closer to 1250-1500 marines to a chapter than the estimated 1000.

I also did not know that a Command Squad is AdHoc. My Chapter has Command Squads as standard just because I think it only right that a Captain has his own unit.

 O'Raatol wrote:
"And low the mightiest of the Imperium's warriors, the great Adeptus Astartes, Angels of Death, Space Marines. Formed into a thousand Chapters, each one a thousand strong."

It is clearly stated in many places that each Chapter is made up of EXACTLY 1000 Space Marines. No more, no less.
But the more I look at the Organisation charts, the Codexes and their background in general, this proves less and less to be true.

I shall explain what I mean.

Yes, each Company is made up of 10 Squads each 10 strong so yes, 100 x 10 is 1000.
But, each Company also has a dedicated Chaplain, a dedicated 5 strong Command Squad and a Captain. That's an extra 7 already; except of course the Scout Company who only have a Captain.
Not to mention that the Scout Company is constantly changing in numbers and in some Chapters has been known to exceed the ten squad limit.

Then you have the Librarian Department.
1 Chief Librarian, 5 Epistolaries, 10 Codiciers and 20 Lexicaniums on average, not to mention potential Lexicaniums. So on average another 36 Marines.

Then there's the Techmarines department.
1-3 Forge Masters, then at least one Techmarine per Company so at least 10. So that's another 11-13 Marines.

Another two to add to the list would be the Chapter Master and the Master of Sanctity.

Then, there are the Dreadnoughts. Every Chapter has at least 1 or so it seems.

Already so far thats 1114-1116 Marines.

THEN there's the Bike Squads (both Marine and Scout) and Land Speeder Squadrons to consider. Do they have dedicated riders and pilots or do certain marines just take up the role in certain circumstances?

I wont mention the vehicles though as its already covered by the fluff that they are driven and piloted by non-space marines. But then the Stormtalon is definately piloted by a Marine according to the model so are they really?

So, 1000 Space Marines per Chapter? I'm not convinced.

I counted it up based on the chart in the Blood Angels Codex once. They had 1196 Space Marines (including Librarians, Chaplains, veterans, Techmarines, Apothecaries, et cetera), 160-ish Scouts, and thousands of Servitors, assuming that none of their starships or vehicles are crewed by anyone not on the Armory roster as a Techmarine. 'A thousand' is a ballpark estimate used for full pomposity, a full-strength Chapter is more likely to have 1200-1300 Marines.

EDIT: And 26 Dreadnaughts. Forgot to mention them.