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Platuan4th wrote:That's actually not true, we have several established instances in which Chapters have deployed the entire Chapter. Armageddon 3 has 2 or 3 Chapters do it, Black 13th has several Chapters(including the Dark Angels) show up in full, and so does the Badab War, to name a few.

Aye - in the end, "full deployment" only means that the commander has to decide how many of his 1.000 guys he wants to deploy in vehicles, and how many as infantry. A decision which would surely be made on an as-needed basis.

Rarely happens, though, so I suppose it would not really be a concern in terms of efficiency.

O'Raatol wrote:1, as we have already established, Marines don't drive the Rhinos or Thunderhawks.
2, squads would not be broke up in such a way as to leave two behind wile the rest do other stuff. Combat Squads are the smallest seperation that a Chapter does.

Doesn't it say in the codices that these vehicles are indeed piloted by Space Marines as well?
And squads are indeed broken up, although the Codex mentions this only for the Reserve companies -> as soon as a Battle Company has a casualty but the squad is still operational, someone from the Reserve transfers in. These units are, I think, not actually intended as independent fighting formations; their purpose is entirely supplemental, and as such there is no harm in having them understrength. I suppose you could say the Reserve is "cannibalised" to keep the Battle Companies - whose name already implies that these are the ones who carry the bulk of the Chapter's burden - as close to full strength as possible.

That's what I'm getting from the 5E 'dex, anyways.

 Lynata wrote:
There also was something about the 1k limitation being "suspended" for Chapters engaged in prolonged conflict, as they will have to train replacements for battle casualties and the Adeptus Terra agrees that having some Marines more is better than having too few. I can't find the source right now, but there ya go.

You'd probably be thinking of early edition Epic 40K's 'Armies of the Imperium' , the mention of which got modified/recycled into the 5th edition Space Marine Codex. The first specified that Chapters may create and maintain additional companies in times of prolonged conflict (which doesnt say whether or not they are actively serving, or simply acting as a substantial reserve in cases of losses.) and the second source mentions that Chapters have 'often' exceeded the 1000 man limit in times of prolonged war.

Late to the 1000-marines party but:

Its " have 1000 brothers ready for battle" not "have 1000 battle-brothers".

Example 3rd edition codex Space Marines. Organization of the Ultramarines in M41:

1st Co

- 101 Marines.
- 3 dreads, 18 Rhino, 7 Land Raider, 74 suits of TDA.

2nd Co:

- 103 Marines
- 2 dreads, 11 Rhinos, 3 Landspeeder, 2 Tornado Ls, 1 Typhoon Ls, 18 Bikes, 2 Assault-bikes

3rd Co:

- 100 Marines
- 2 dreads, 9 rhinos, 2 Landspeeder, 2 tornado Ls, 3 Typhoon Ls, 20 bikes, 4 assault-bikes.

4th Co:

- 109 Marines
- 4 dreads, 15 rhinos, 5 Landspeeder, 5 tornado Ls, 5 Typhoon Ls, 25 bikes, 5 assault-bikes.

5th Co:

- 86 Marines
- 1 dread, 7 rhinos, 4 landspeeder, 1 typhoon Ls, 12 bikes, 1 assault-bike.

6th Co:

- 97 marines
- 4 dreads, 13 rhinos, 21 bikes, 3 assault-bikes.

7th Co:

- 101 marines
- 3 dreads, 15 rhinos, 4 landspeeder, 3 tornadoLs, 4 typhoonLs .

8th Co:

- 101 marines
- 5 dreads, 16 rhinos, 28 bikes, 7 assault-bikes, 8 landspeeder, 4 tornadoLs, 5 typhoonLS.

9th Co:

- 92 marines
- 7 dreads, 8 rhinos

10th Co:

- 13 marines ( without scouts )

Librarium:

- 28 marines

Apothecarion:

- 17 marines

Arsenal:

- 33 marines

HQ:

- 5 marines
- 3 rhinos, 2 Land Raider, 5 razorbacks


As you can see there, losses are included. In this list, it sums up to 986 marines if the Chapter isn't at full strength but misses a few memebers. Filling the gaps in the squads addds another 74 marines, so closer to 1060. There are alos no Predators, Vindicators or Whirlwind listed in the companies sincew they belong to the arsenal. Still a bit diferent from more recent charts because the chaplains are distributed amongst the companies here. Please note too, each company may have vehicles of different types and some got more than neccessary to transport the company.

Understrength, they are closer to 1000. At their peak, its only 1000 if some marines don't count.

Again, all of this is kind of glossing over the fact that most chapters wouldn't even have a thousand anyway due to losses

 O'Raatol wrote:

Again, Marines don't drive Whirlwinds. And the Land Speeder would be piloted by Marines from the 7th Company so whatever Company you have those 45 Marines from you would kepp the 45 Marines plus the Vehicles.
New vehicles STILL NOT DRIVEN BY MARINES so no changes there and flyers which are taken in support and are piloted by 7th Company Marines so no extra duties for a Battle Company there either, so what are you actually complaining about???

The information you are objecting to has been in the army list entries themselves, and in every publication about space marines since there were space marines. This is an obnoxious post. It's weird, and if you were curious you would find out instead of posting compulsively.

Most chapters don't really follow the Codex to the letter, thankfully. As others have said the space marines are in a constant cycle of losing men, if anything they probably have more than 1000 actual members of the chapter if you're including all of their neophytes.

Also poor chapters like the Lamenters are lucky to even exist anymore.

O'Raatol wrote:

New vehicles STILL NOT DRIVEN BY MARINES so no changes there and flyers which are taken in support and are piloted by 7th Company Marines so no extra duties for a Battle Company there either, so what are you actually complaining about???

LOL, would you like to see the 2nd Edition vehicle card that says "Crew: 2 Space Marines"?

Yeah, they do. Heck, the original Whirlwind model has a Space Marine crew member in the turret.

Stand down son. You're in over your head.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 O'Raatol wrote:


Arr, but the Chapter as a WHOLE is NEVER deployed into one battle only the Battle Companies are deployed because if they suffered 90% casualties that would destroy the Chapter.

That's actually not true, we have several established instances in which Chapters have deployed the entire Chapter. Armageddon 3 has 2 or 3 Chapters do it, Black 13th has several Chapters(including the Dark Angels) show up in full, and so does the Badab War, to name a few.

But those are rare and EXCEPTIONAL circumstances. In general a Chapter would not commit its entire number to a conflict. It states as such in the past three Codexes each of which I have.

 Lynata wrote:

O'Raatol wrote:1, as we have already established, Marines don't drive the Rhinos or Thunderhawks.
2, squads would not be broke up in such a way as to leave two behind wile the rest do other stuff. Combat Squads are the smallest seperation that a Chapter does.

Doesn't it say in the codices that these vehicles are indeed piloted by Space Marines as well?

And squads are indeed broken up, although the Codex mentions this only for the Reserve companies -> as soon as a Battle Company has a casualty but the squad is still operational, someone from the Reserve transfers in. These units are, I think, not actually intended as independent fighting formations; their purpose is entirely supplemental, and as such there is no harm in having them understrength. I suppose you could say the Reserve is "cannibalised" to keep the Battle Companies - whose name already implies that these are the ones who carry the bulk of the Chapter's burden - as close to full strength as possible.

That's what I'm getting from the 5E 'dex, anyways.

The point I was trying to make about what Veteran Sergeant said about having only 45 Marines and needing to split some up to drive rhinos and land speeders is redundant as it has been established that the reserve companies pilot and drive those, leaving the Battle Company intact.

When I said the Squads wouldn't be broken up, I was talking about the Battle Comapnies. It's already been noted that the reserve squads break up on a regular basis to pilot land speeders and bikes in support of the Battle Companies, but the Battle Companies would not want to compromise their structure.

Also, I apologise and put my hands about the rhinos (and variants there of plus other vehicles) not being driven by Space Marines. There ARE certain bits of fluff and references that I know of that DO suggest that they are not driven by them, but obviously there is a higher majority that say they do, I've just never seen them.

Also, a lot of people keep comenting saying they wouldn't be 1000 exactly in such a way that suggests I was saying they were. My actual post was challenging that very fact in the first place. I know that most chapters arn't 1000 marines or that some even make it as far as 500. My actual real query was to what part of the Chapter the 1000 refered to and it has definately been made clear that it's the basic line men (minus Scouts as they not full Marines).

Even back when they where Legions, the numbers where never exact.

Referring to the Lexicanum:

"The approximate sizes of a few of the Legions at the start of the Heresy have been given in various sources:

Ultramarines - 250,000
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000
World Eaters - 150,000
Word Bearers - 100,000
Death Guard - 95,000
Raven Guard - 80,000
Emperor's Children - 50,000"

Plus the Salamanders are constantly referred to as being the 'Smallest Legion' even before they were almost destroyed at Isstvan V.

 Lynata wrote:

And squads are indeed broken up, although the Codex mentions this only for the Reserve companies -> as soon as a Battle Company has a casualty but the squad is still operational, someone from the Reserve transfers in.

See the list from codex space marines 3rd ed, that I have posted. Lots of depleted squads there...

 Lynata wrote:

These units are, I think, not actually intended as independent fighting formations; their purpose is entirely supplemental, and as such there is no harm in having them understrength. I suppose you could say the Reserve is "cannibalised" to keep the Battle Companies - whose name already implies that these are the ones who carry the bulk of the Chapter's burden - as close to full strength as possible.

I'll list 3 examples from the same ol 3rd codex, just to show what happens when GW actually puts some numbers into their books. ok?

Example 1:

Joran VI

Arsenal : 4 Predator Annihilator, 6 Predator Destruktor, 6 Razorbacks, 3 Land Raider, 4 Vindicator , 3 Whirlwinds, 5 Rhinos, 5 Techmarines , 18 Servitors.

Librarium: 3 Lexicani , 1 Codifizer ( titles no longer as present as they were in 3rd )

Apothecarion: 1 Apothecary , 3 servomeds

Fleet: 2 Strikecruiser , 12 Thunderhawks

1st Comp. 10 Terminators, 2 Land Raider

3rd Comp. Captain , 1 Chaplain , 1 Apothecary, Standardbearer, 1 Veteran Sarge;
- 35 Tactical marines, 20 Devastors , 8 Assault-marines;
- 2 dreads , 6 Rhinos, 6 Landspeeder, 10 bikes, 2 assault-bikes;

10th Comp. 20 Scouts

There aren't any "reserve-company-marines" around this force to drive any vehicle they ferry around in their Space vessels. They got enough means to travel for the Assault elements to choose from. Sure its an old bit of fluff but it isn't replaced yet and since you are so fond of keeping fluff...


Example 2:

Escort / Recon fleet Delpha

Arsenal : 2 Techmarines , 6 servitors

Librarium: 1 Magister ( again old title )

Apothecarion: 1 Apothecary, 5 servomeds

Fleet: 3 Thunderhawks

1st Comp. 10 veterans, 1 Rhino ( non - TDA vets )

4th Comp. Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary, 2 Veteran sarge , 30 Tactical marines, 20 Assault-marines, 6 Rhinos

10th Comp. 5 Scouts


again, no "reserve-company-marine" around to drive anything.


Example 2:

Patrol Sector Gerio

Arsenal: 2 Predator Annihilator, 1 Vindicator , 1 Razorback, 2 Techmarines, 4 servitors

Librarium 1 Magister ( yes, yes, old stuff )

Apothecarion: 3 servomeds

Fleet: 1 Strike cruiser, 3 thunderhawks

1st Comp. 5 Terminators

6th Comp. Captain, Apothecary, Standardbearer, 2 Veteran sarges, 15 tactical marines;
- 1 dread, 1 Rhino, 2 Landspeeder, 5 bikes, 1 assault-bike;

8th Comp. 10 assault-marines

9th Comp. 5 Devastators

10th Comp. 5 scouts.


Patrol duty, done by reserve companies. A few vets too but generally a mix of units from different companies and on Patrol, engagements may happen...

Plus, back in these days vehicles had Crew = space marines in their army list entries.

I keep all the old fluff, at least as long as it is not replaced (or no longer seems sensible due to newer information).

And in this case, I do not see the contradiction.

1hadhq wrote:There aren't any "reserve-company-marines" around this force to drive any vehicle they ferry around in their Space vessels. They got enough means to travel for the Assault elements to choose from.

I think there has been a miscommunication. I did not intend to imply that the Battle Companies have no drivers whatsoever - but that Marines from the Reserve Companies fill this role whenever a Battle Company intends to deploy in full force with 10 squads of infantry, or has personnel otherwise occupied. At this point there obviously would be no potential drivers available, because they're already busy. Likewise, a Battle Company not at full strength might prefer to lend drivers from the Reserve just so they can get more boots to the ground even for smaller engagements, as they need to account for casualties.
It's a balancing thing.

From the 5E Codex: "The Assault Squads of the Battle Company may be deployed as Bike squadrons or Land Speeder crews should theatre conditions require it."

In other words, if you want 10 squads *and* vehicles on top of that, you turn to the Reserve, which is why: "Most Space Marine deployments will consist of a single Battle Company, heavily reinforced by elements of the Veteran, Scout and Reserve Companies."

PS: Also note that "Arsenal" means "we have these here in case we need them", not "deployed and in use". Which fits excellent to a Marine's capability to switch between infantry and driver and back on a moment's notice, just as the situation demands.
It would probably be better to have a chart of individual engagements, rather than just an overview of what they had at their disposal when they began the campaign.

Hmmm.....lets see the blood angels are made up of 10 squads of 10 in each company (10 companys = 1000 marines) but also they have 30 sanguinity guard in addition to the standard space marine chapter AND you have the death company as well (they are not counted as part of the chapter list)

 Lynata wrote:


And in this case, I do not see the contradiction.

Since there seemed only a few sources used in this thread, I deemed it an option to throw that old list from 3rd in, a list which shows the Ultramarines in a depleted state. ie squads of less than 10 marines etc and companies at different strengths. Secondly, the forces shown as examples are a mixed bunch, a strike force , a recon group, a patrol. Was intended to give us an idea of what these things may consist, if I may guess.

But its also a great piece of completeness, a list of the whole chapter and some of its forces sent. We can see there marines identified by company. Especially what we are looking for, IMO. The issue I want to point at is, in this codex we have vehicles with crews included, and additionally examples of forces where the companies may deploy with some veterans and scouts alongside but not with some "reserve" marines from a reserve company. Better yet, they are not even deploying the full company so they could just take more of their "own" if they need more marines.

 Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There aren't any "reserve-company-marines" around this force to drive any vehicle they ferry around in their Space vessels. They got enough means to travel for the Assault elements to choose from.

I did not intend to imply that the Battle Companies have no drivers whatsoever - but that Marines from the Reserve Companies fill this role whenever a Battle Company intends to deploy in full force with 10 squads of infantry, or has personnel otherwise occupied.

Deployments depend on the Chapter master, if he orders multiple companies and assigns one as the leader. He could sent a full battlecompany and some additional marines, sure. But is it really such a good idea to use the "reserve"-marines just as reserve, as drivers? Marines are meant to fight and I think they wouldn't want to stay back and be that rhino-driver again and again whilst the rest wins the day and gets to use their weapons.

 Lynata wrote:

PS: Also note that "Arsenal" means "we have these here in case we need them", not "deployed and in use".

The place where they keep the vehicles which do not belong to the companies?
The home of the techmarines? The place where marines learn about those vehicles? I don't think arsenal was meant as "storage room" in this case. Rather the common name of the part of a chapter that is under the rule of the , actually Master of the Forge, who reports to the Chapter master, not the captain of a company. Sure MotF didn't exist in that old dex. And as a valid description of the part of a force that comes from said part of the chapter , thus:
Arsenal, not company xyz..

 Lynata wrote:

It would probably be better to have a chart of individual engagements, rather than just an overview of what they had at their disposal when they began the campaign.

GW stopped filling their work with details and added more "cinematicness".

1hadhq wrote:The issue I want to point at is, in this codex we have vehicles with crews included, and additionally examples of forces where the companies may deploy with some veterans and scouts alongside but not with some "reserve" marines from a reserve company. Better yet, they are not even deploying the full company so they could just take more of their "own" if they need more marines.

I would add that the Reserve Company could simply not be listed because they are attaching indidivual elements to the Battle Company - in essence that a vehicle (and its drivers) from a Reserve Company become part of the squad of a Battle Company for as long as the mission requires them to operate together.

Not saying this was the case in the examples you posted. As we have both written by now, it is perfectly plausible that they took their own as drivers, simply because they never intended to deploy each Marine in the company as infantry.

The list you posted does not say "crews included", by the way. Is this actually stated in the Codex, or is this an assumption?

1hadhq wrote:But is it really such a good idea to use the "reserve"-marines just as reserve, as drivers? Marines are meant to fight and I think they wouldn't want to stay back and be that rhino-driver again and again whilst the rest wins the day and gets to use their weapons.

Is it a good idea? Depends. Given the lifetime of a Space Marine (2-3 times as long as a normal human, no retirement), it could be useful to train them in such diverse capabilities. Just look at how they start their career: lightly armoured Scouts wielding sniper rifles and doing recon - only to later switch into powered armour and deep strike as heavily armed shock troops. Also driving a tank is not that much farther apart.

And ... that's quite simply how it was written down by GW. I think you're applying modern military standards here, which may not be the best thing to do. Another poster mentioned that the Marines would probably just not agree with driving a Rhino being an unwanted task. We might find it hard to understand the sentiment of the people in the 41st millennium when it comes to their vehicles, but they really do care a lot about them, at least as much as they care about their own weapons. Being allowed to drive a Rhino is as much a honour as it is to don a suit of powered armour.

"It is a position of great honour to care for these vehicles and those that are carried into battle within one of the spirits that inhabit the mechanical functions and blessed bolts that make up each one. [...]
Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. After the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge, fourteen Rhinos of the Imperial Fists had to be abandoned when traitor Space Marines from the Night Lords Legion ambushed the advancing column as it crossed the only bridge across the gorge. [...] The following morning a daring mission involving an airborne assault across the gorge pushed back the Night Lords from the hills on the opposite side and allowed the Imperial Fists to bring up salvage units to start the recovery of their shattered vehicles and the bodies of their comrades. The battle in the hills raged for over thirty hours, with Imperial Fists' casualties amounting to almost 85% as they fought to give their Techmarines enough time to retrieve the fallen Rhinos. Many of the recovered vehicles were subsequently repaired and sent back into action, their battle spirits eager to avenge the ignominy of their earlier defeat. "
- WD #269 : Rhinos

That being said, the Reserve Companies would of course not be used exclusively as drivers. It depends on the situation - did not one example you posted mention them as pulling patrol duty?
The names of these formations really give a good indicator on what they do, already. Battle Companies are the ones doing most of the battling. Reserve Companies are auxiliaries. And given how a Space Marine would have to prove himself before he gets invited into 1st Company, I would actually expect newly minted Brother-Marines to pull a couple tours of duty in the Reserve Companies, too, before they join one of the Battle Companies (likely connected to the "casualty replacement" role also mentioned in the Codex).

It makes sense, the more I think about it. As a Marine you most likely either go Scout -> Reserve Company -> Battle Company -> 1st Company, or you become a Sergeant and then a Captain (with a chance of later replacing another Captain in one of the "more elite" companies). All depending on whether you're a better warrior or a better leader.

1hadhq wrote:The place where they keep the vehicles which do not belong to the companies? The home of the techmarines? The place where marines learn about those vehicles? I don't think arsenal was meant as "storage room" in this case.

In the list you posted, it was listed as belonging to the mission detachment, so ... yes, it would have to be a "storage room", likely on the ship that carried the task force, or the base that was erected as part of the campaign.

Well, okay, "storage room" is probably a misnomer, given that it also includes people - but the space would be a part of it, as are the vehicles (obviously, else they would not be listed there but with one of the companies that was also part of the mission). And if they are not firmly assigned to one of the companies, it means they must be "up for grabs" in case anyone needs them, which in turn means they have no designated driver, which means ... someone's gotta be capable of filling this position, but does not usually do so.
I mean, that's about the only reason I could come up with for the presence of these vehicles there.

1hadhq wrote:GW stopped filling their work with details and added more "cinematicness".

Sad, but true.
I kind of miss the old days of cross-sections and hard numbers 'n stuff. Though I kinda understand why they changed it, even if I'll never agree.

The tenth company is comprised of scouts who are not full battle-brothers yet so they wouldn't be counted with the full 1000 battle brothers.

orz192 wrote:The tenth company is comprised of scouts who are not full battle-brothers yet so they wouldn't be counted with the full 1000 battle brothers.

"Each of the ten companies that comprises a Chapter is led by a Space Marine Captain and includes supernumaries such as the Company's Chaplain and Apothecary. The official fighting strength of each company is made up of ten squads each of ten Space Marines led by a Sergeant."
- 5E C:SM

10 x 10 x 10 = 1.000

However, on the same page it also says that "the Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not a fixed amount". So that is either a contradiction born out of merging old and new texts, or - and this is how I am interpreting it - simply a case of "this is how it would be nice" versus "do as you see fit". Both maxims are somewhat contradictory, but do not actually conflict with each other. It just means that, whilst non-standard, nobody will actually raise an eyebrow if your Chapter has 120 Scouts or 40. In essence, there is no fixed authorized strength for this company, but the Codex Astartes still recommends 10 squads with 10 men each, so I suppose that's what most Codex Chapters would regard as the norm (even in cases where they would not currently adhere to it).

See, this was also why I was challenging the 1000 Marines statement.

Most people are obviously half and half as to whether Scouts count or not because they're not yet full Marines which means it could be argued that if the 100 Scouts don't count, maybe the command and other departments make up the last 100.

Isn't the available material clear about that Scouts *do* count, but that "other departments" *do not*?

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_ca.html
A copy of the Index Astartes article as it appeared in White Dwarf. In short: "Headquarters staff" = supernumaries.

Parts of it also appear in the 5E Codex. To me, it is crystal-clear, but I suppose all our perceptions may be tainted by individual interpretation, leading to the endless debate even where we think the sources could not possibly be misunderstood.

Well, yes, just look at the debate about acts of faith and whether or not they're psychic powers. The text is completely and utterly unambiguous, specific, and clear... but certain fans ignore that.

 Lynata wrote:
To me, it is crystal-clear, but I suppose all our perceptions may be tainted by individual interpretation

The only thing crystal clear is, most of the design team have no idea how to keep their work crystal clear.

Secondly, I for one think Your view is tainted. .. if someones can be called that.
..not really a surprise this thread is at "individual interpretation station" , the place it all ends like, like always..

How about: they love certain numbers, and 1000 is pretty and easy to remember and adds nicely to the 1.000.000 worlds as a 1000x1000 ... because I don't think GW has put so much effort into sizes and organization as "we" do in debating them.

To insist on a SM chapter = 1000 SM is like taking a bit of fluff about a SM Legion at 100.000 to state its exactly 100.000 all the time. Isn't it obvious why such numbers are used? Consider them as 87.439 instead of 100.000.
100k is easy to run with. And so is 1k...

I'm not sure where the argument is anyhow. The basic idea of the 1000 men per Chapter is more or less 'We don't want huge numbers of Space Marines going bad and creating a second Heresy.' Some Legions (like the Ultramarines) adhere to the letter of that ruling, by and large, but its impossible to hold to it absolutely (what are you going to do, kill the 1001st Marine you inadvertently created?) simply because there's too many variables in the creation process and losses (and other factors) are unpredictable.

But I think it can be safely said that virtually ALL the chapters adhere to the spirit of the limit, which basically can be described as 'no more Legions'. It's not a hard and fast rule, per se, and while it makes some uneasy it can be permitted in some cases (purportedly, the Black Templars) but its also clear it won't be tolerated in others (Eg the Astral Claws.)

A million marines is, like a million worlds, more an approximation based on the best information they have, and at any given time the figure may be higher or lower (based on numbers of chapters, numbers per chapter, losses incurred, etc.) due to aforementioned factors.

Although I would argue that its quite unlikely the setting will ever indicate hundreds of millions or billions of marines ever. You might get that many Sisters of Battle, however...

Edit: Also arguments over 'interpretation' are likely not to go anywhere because any discussion is about interpretation, even if you restrict yourself to codex material or whatever. 40K has always taken a stance of 'we keep things reasonably vague and open ended so people can tailor the universe to their desires' aspect. Thats why (for example) there are two missing Legions as well as numerous spinoff Chapters from the original Legions, why the Imperial Guard can encompass spear wielding barbarians to Mobile Infantry, etc.

Don't forget the Black Templars, they are well over 6000 marines. Many of the fleet based chapters seem to be much larger especially when each company takes recruitment upon itself.

Connor MacLeod wrote:You might get that many Sisters of Battle, however...

Well ... probably not per GW's fluff. There's a lot of interpretation involved, but the available material makes their numbers look smaller than those of the Astartes. They are also more dispersed, however, at times even with just a single Sister on a world guarding some holy shrine.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Also arguments over 'interpretation' are likely not to go anywhere because any discussion is about interpretation, even if you restrict yourself to codex material or whatever. 40K has always taken a stance of 'we keep things reasonably vague and open ended so people can tailor the universe to their desires' aspect.

Hmm, there's some truth to that, but I would add that some things may seem more "fixed" in fluff originating from a specific source (even though they could still be described in a different way elsewhere), as opposed to being so vague that you would have to make wild guesses. For example, the "Codex standard = 10 companies, 10 squads, 10 Marines" does mean some very solid numbers that are difficult to work around without simply declaring them nonsense, like some do. The way I see it, GW simply added the concept of "supernumaries" as a cop-out excuse to explain how stuff like Chaplains and Apothecaries (etc) fits in there, and the multi-role capability as infantry/driver (heavily present especially in the Reserve Companies) as a way to explain vehicle deployment. But obviously, not everyone will agree as they have a different ... interpretation! Wherever it results from.

I guess what I'm trying to say, there are "layers of interpretation" defined by their acceptance in the community. How many people would disagree with all Space Marines being male, for example?

UNREALPwnage wrote:Don't forget the Black Templars, they are well over 6000 marines. Many of the fleet based chapters seem to be much larger especially when each company takes recruitment upon itself.

Indeed. Well, ... five- to six-thousand, "if certain accounts are taken to be true". I suppose it is safe to say that only the Black Templars themselves would know for sure, and even their own estimates are likely to be off by a certain margin, due to the delays involved with astropathic communication and interstellar travel. The Black Templars are "all over the place", fighting their crusades on all fronts and having numerous small Chapter Keeps across Imperial space that ship off successfully initiated recruits a dozen a pack.

/nitpick

 Lynata wrote:
]Well ... probably not per GW's fluff. There's a lot of interpretation involved, but the available material makes their numbers look smaller than those of the Astartes. They are also more dispersed, however, at times even with just a single Sister on a world guarding some holy shrine.

GW constantly contradicts itself by a combination of either injecting old/new grimdark into the cycle and/or recycling stuff because its cheaper than coming up with new things. I tend to ignore the actual numbers in light of the fact you can have scores or hundreds of sisters literally in every sector guarding important Ecclesiarchal shrines, worlds, tombs, and even the most trivial junk. And that doesn't include those on the Black Ships, off Crusading for the glory of the Emperor, etc.

Seriously, they either have way more sisters than is stated, or they've got a magical time-dilation loaves-and-fishes effect going on simultaneously across the Imperium. Although if you want to be really pedantic its not likely that Sisters of Battle numbers are fixed either. They could fluctuate from tens of thousands to millions and back again for various reasons and it wouldn't be contradictory. They're easier to recruit and train than Space Marines, but they're just as prone to losses and the latest edition has made expansion and contraction of the Imperial forces sizes (and their borders) rather cyclical anyhow.

Hmm, there's some truth to that, but I would add that some things may seem more "fixed" in fluff originating from a specific source (even though they could still be described in a different way elsewhere), as opposed to being so vague that you would have to make wild guesses. For example, the "Codex standard = 10 companies, 10 squads, 10 Marines" does mean some very solid numbers that are difficult to work around without simply declaring them nonsense, like some do. The way I see it, GW simply added the concept of "supernumaries" as a cop-out excuse to explain how stuff like Chaplains and Apothecaries (etc) fits in there, and the multi-role capability as infantry/driver (heavily present especially in the Reserve Companies) as a way to explain vehicle deployment. But obviously, not everyone will agree as they have a different ... interpretation! Wherever it results from.

The GW-oriented fluff has an annoying habit of saying one thing and then turning around and saying another. We get bombarded with the idea that the Imperium is so vast and the Administratum is so bureaucratic that they don't really know how big it is and how many people are in it (or how many in their armies they field) that the time dilation and unpredictability of the warp for communication and travel make reliable coordination between worlds impossible.... and then we also get told everything is standardized, they know the goings on across the galaxy, and they're able to organize and dictate how the militaries will function (when the intention originally was they couldn't centrally organize or control armies, so they had to leave it to agents and local control.)

That's all the same sort of author interpretation you get with the novels, FFG stuff and other spinoff materials, and to that you can usually add the problem that every few years they decide to release a new edition that may change things around (CF 5th edition and the changes to the Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons.) And then there's all the advertising they do (which certainly makes it sound like its ACCEPTED - they try to push the books and forge world stuff on you quite a bit) Add to that the bias inherent in the codexes (they have natural bias towards their own subjects) and you really get a formula where the 'source' material is no better or worse than the rest of the fluff material.

I guess what I'm trying to say, there are "layers of interpretation" defined by their acceptance in the community. How many people would disagree with all Space Marines being male, for example?

There's nothing but interpretation, and all the argument that come up stem from people arguing whose interpretation is better. CF anything involving Matt Ward. Leaving it open ended like that is nothing but a benefit to them: It lets people make up their own explantions to fill in the gaps in the universe (so they don't have to, or can let some other author do it) and in case of things like CONTRADICTION they can just invoke 'interpretation/myth/point of view/things are fuzzy' to explain it away. Win win for them.

Connor MacLeod wrote:GW constantly contradicts itself by a combination of either injecting old/new grimdark into the cycle and/or recycling stuff because its cheaper than coming up with new things. I tend to ignore the actual numbers in light of the fact you can have scores or hundreds of sisters literally in every sector guarding important Ecclesiarchal shrines, worlds, tombs, and even the most trivial junk. And that doesn't include those on the Black Ships, off Crusading for the glory of the Emperor, etc.

But that's just it, is it truly a "fact", or are you merely making assumptions? For example, where were the Sisters of Battle during the Battle for Bladen?


Defended merely by the attendant clergy and a regiment of Cadians, there were no SoB to be found. And it kind of fits to their presence elsewhere in the fluff, too:



I know what -I- see as the least represented force on those charts. Not that I am necessarily disputing that there'd be - on average - having a score of Sisters for each sector (with more here and less there) ... but how many sectors would the Imperium have? I guess this is something we do not know either.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Seriously, they either have way more sisters than is stated, or they've got a magical time-dilation loaves-and-fishes effect going on simultaneously across the Imperium.

The Major Orders simply have very fast ships. The Minor Orders on the other hand are spread out all across the galaxy, although we hear little of them as they are usually of no consequence for the truly important battles due to their low numbers. From how it looks like, I would say that the bulk of offensive operations are carried out by the highly mobile Major Orders, whereas the Minor ones are limited both due to their small size as well as to a relatively fixed position - unless there is a defense to be mounted or an Inquisitor needs assistance, they have little to do but to guard, train and pray - and to carry out all those minor tasks such as protecting pilgrim routes, playing bodyguard and occasionally enforcing Ecclesiarchal law etc. This share of duties would work out well, I think, and be in line with what we have seen so far.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Although if you want to be really pedantic its not likely that Sisters of Battle numbers are fixed either. They could fluctuate from tens of thousands to millions and back again for various reasons and it wouldn't be contradictory. They're easier to recruit and train than Space Marines, but they're just as prone to losses and the latest edition has made expansion and contraction of the Imperial forces sizes (and their borders) rather cyclical anyhow.

They do fluctuate, this was established in the 2E Codex already:

"On occasion, an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed."

Of course, that is referring solely to the six Major Orders - the Minor Orders seem to be around a hundred to a few hundred Sisters strong each, at least according to what the books said so far.
I don't agree on them being easier to train, though. Aside from the high cost of their lavishly wasteful equipment, the excessive physical and mental requirements do seem to limit the pool of candidates somwhat, and being trained from infancy means that a fully-fledged Sister of Battle takes at least 15-20 years to "make". Might explain why it took the Ecclesiarchy 2.500 years to expand the Orders Militant from 10k to 30k, though such an excessive timespan also hints at political and/or financial hindrances.
In comparison, how long do you need for a Space Marine? Index Astartes says that a Marine "usually joins the ranks as a full brother between the ages of 16-18". Add this to the fact they are recruited at age 10-14 and you'll see they are actually pretty fast to create.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The GW-oriented fluff has an annoying habit of saying one thing and then turning around and saying another. We get bombarded with the idea that the Imperium is so vast and the Administratum is so bureaucratic that they don't really know how big it is and how many people are in it (or how many in their armies they field) that the time dilation and unpredictability of the warp for communication and travel make reliable coordination between worlds impossible.... and then we also get told everything is standardized, they know the goings on across the galaxy, and they're able to organize and dictate how the militaries will function (when the intention originally was they couldn't centrally organize or control armies, so they had to leave it to agents and local control.)

I don't see the contradiction, but I do see that you are exaggerating. What standards are there, exactly? For the Imperial Guard, the only truly standard item is the lasgun (directly stated as such in the 5E Guard Codex). True, vehicles - for regiments that actually have them (which are certainly not all) are also somewhat standardised, but then again I do not see the problem in having blueprints disseminated across Imperial space when the IoM had several millennia to do so. And then? Any other standardisation exists only within tightly-knight and comparatively small organisations who are able to keep in contact with their members on a somewhat regular basis. Laws aren't standardised, governments aren't standardised, religion is not standardised, military hierarchy isn't standardised, ...

Connor MacLeod wrote:That's all the same sort of author interpretation you get with the novels, FFG stuff and other spinoff materials, and to that you can usually add the problem that every few years they decide to release a new edition that may change things around (CF 5th edition and the changes to the Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons.) And then there's all the advertising they do (which certainly makes it sound like its ACCEPTED - they try to push the books and forge world stuff on you quite a bit) Add to that the bias inherent in the codexes (they have natural bias towards their own subjects) and you really get a formula where the 'source' material is no better or worse than the rest of the fluff material.

That is something where I actually agree, and I do believe that fluff debates on this forum would greatly benefit if there was some requirement to define "valid sources" whenever a new topic gets posted, so that everybody knows what the OP wants to talk about. Plus, the blogs and forum quotes of the authors and game designers agree with your (and my) assessment that all the sources are, in the end, only portraying different takes of the same setting.

That does not mean that we would not have any standards, though. The Emperor is the Emperor, Space Marines are male, etc. Also, from my experience, most people actually do take GW's fluff over the oursourced publications.
And as I said earlier, when a book does provide an obvious fact (such as the specifically mentioned 10x10x10 formula), then there should be no argueing about what this means - there can only be either "okay, that's it" or "I do not accept this source". Both answers would be fine, but how it felt like to me there were some few posters who preferred to argue around the issue, not wanting to outright say they prefer their own idea over the Codex fluff (even though that would be perfectly fine) yet still contesting what the text said. And that does not really benefit the discussion but simply leads to us running in circles and repeating what we already said before.

But what do you think about the fact that, with all the battles they fight and all the marine destroying weapons they face their numbers should decline with AT LEAST 200 a day?

bahzakhain wrote:
But what do you think about the fact that, with all the battles they fight and all the marine destroying weapons they face their numbers should decline with AT LEAST 200 a day?

I don't agree because it is quite a challenge to actually kill a space marine with all of the genetic enhancements. Instead of death when a marine takes to much trauma he goes into a hibernation of sorts to preserve himself while he waits for the attention of an apothecary. So I don't think they lose that many warriors day to day but may have to give medical attention to about that many per day and not all of those are hibernating cases.

In short: Space Marines are hard to kill.

bahzakhain wrote:
But what do you think about the fact that, with all the battles they fight and all the marine destroying weapons they face their numbers should decline with AT LEAST 200 a day?

The Space Marines, in universe, probably fight very few straight up battles like you see in the 40K tabletop game, and almost never fight without the battlespace tipped ridiculously in their favor.

They are shock troops specialized in surgical strikes. Smashing a fly with a sledgehammer.

I don't often agree with Veteran Sergeant, but in this case I believe he has the right of it, more than Bloodfrenzy187. You can see what happens to Space Marines when they are not fighting a battle on their terms in the example of the Celestial Lions:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070404114806/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/clions.html

Tactical doctrines play a much bigger role than their genetical enhancements. Those merely give them a considerable edge - they do not make them semi-invulnerable.
At least not on GW's side of things; I'm sure some other author interpretations (in particular the so-called "bolter porn novels") may disagree. Matter of opinion, hence pick what you like more.

A 40k tabletop battle is a example of when things have not gone the way the marines wanted it too

A good way to say it, actually. I remember someone (was it Kaldor?) explained Epic 40k once, and that seems to be a much better representation of how Space Marines would "work" within the scope of the setting. Not by being more powerful than they are on the normal TT, but by having much better deployment options. Where this army stood out for pre-planning being as crucial (or even more!) than the actual fight.