Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Command Squads really are variable.

Fortunately GW has given plenty of wiggle room as far as things go, so each chapter is slightly different.

So in some chapters they are an informal group the Captain will form as needed, in others it will be a formal squad within the Company.

 O'Raatol wrote:
Ok I got the fact there would be losses the first time it was mentioned.
I was trying to get an idea of people's general concenses on how many there would be if the Chapter were basically at full strength and followed a general pattern.
Including losses would be too random to give an accurate estimate.

So as I take it the general answer is closer to 1250-1500 marines to a chapter than the estimated 1000.

I also did not know that a Command Squad is AdHoc. My Chapter has Command Squads as standard just because I think it only right that a Captain has his own unit.

There is nothing wrong with having standard Command Squads if that is what you want your Chapter to have. They are after all YOUR Chapter and Command Squads are an established part of the background and Space Marine game rules.

 Lynata wrote:
The Black Templars are rumoured to be in excess of 5.000 Space Marines, even - it's just that they are scattered all across the galaxy and nigh-impossible to keep track of, so thanks to how Imperial bureaucracy and Warp travel / communication work, nobody can actually prove it. In addition, there's that exemption rule for Chapters engaged in a prolonged campaign, and the Black Templars could argue that their "eternal crusade" does count as such. Together with their apparent loyalty to the Imperium's cause, I'd say the High Lords and the Inquisition just do not feel too bothered by the reports about their size. This could well change if they ever gather in a single place and visibly display the Chapter's full might - but how likely would that be?
Added to that ... yes, the controlling bodies in the Imperium are indeed more lenient towards famous Chapters with a long and glorious history of service, most notably the loyalist Founding Chapters (including those that split off from the main body during the Second Founding) - this is briefly discussed in the "Rogue Sons" article of the Index Astartes.

Cannot agree regarding the Space Wolves, though - looking at their appearance and propensity to turn into slavering werewolves, their geneseed definitely appears tainted, and this is explicitly stated as such in the aforementioned Index Astartes article. Together with their history of reaction to the various Imperial organisations ... let's face it, the primary reason they are still there at the end of M41 is because they are the Space Wolves, the one big special snowflake exception from half the stuff we know a Space Marine should be.

I agree with you Lynata that the Black Templars are one of the most numerous Chapters, what with having five or six crusade fleet spread across the galaxy, each basically a seperate Chapter unto itself. The only instance I can foresee them gathering all as one is at the End of Days when the Emperor returns along with the 'missing' Primarchs for the final battle for the universe. And just in my opinion, that day is drawing ever closer if the reports of how bad things are getting for the Imperium are anything to go by.

Also, yes some Space Wolves may have a tendency to fail to over come the feral part, but it is all due to the Canis Helix which is part of Leman Russ' geneseed and nothing to do with a mutation. Leman Russ himself went through a similar transformation as a child growing up on Fenris.

1000 is a figurative and symbolic number. You couldn't limit it to exactly 1000 as you couldn't then ever induct people save for when you lost a body, which would mean you could never reach 1000 as you couldn't bring people on line fast enough to cope with combat losses.

It isn't really unique either. The Forbidden City in Beijing is said to have 1000 rooms, and it's been counted to like 900 and something rooms. The 1000 is not hard and fast, and isn't misleading, as that is the number they try to meet.

alphaecho wrote:
Also, each company does not always have a dedicated 5 man Command Squad. The book "Insignium Astartes" pointed out that a Command Squad is ad hoc. Some Captains may want one, others will make do with a standard bearer only. Those who are in the command squad may be veterans from a line squad who are waiting for a 1st Company vacancy to appear (in effect Tactical Squad III may now only have nine marines but the Captain has a drinking buddy!). As others have stated, each squad may not have ten men due to injuries or deaths so exact numbers may be hard to judge at any one time.

If most Command Squads are only a two men strong (Apothacary + Standard Bearer) than why are we forced to take five in the Codex? Doesn't seem fair really. Why is that most GW units never match their fluff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
1000 is a figurative and symbolic number. You couldn't limit it to exactly 1000 as you couldn't then ever induct people save for when you lost a body, which would mean you could never reach 1000 as you couldn't bring people on line fast enough to cope with combat losses.

Well thats not exactly true as Neophytes and Scouts aren't considered true Space Marines just yet as we hav established.

That means there are only 2 individuals that are permanately command squad members. The Apothecary and Banner Bearer. The other members have their own squads within the Company and are only part of the command squad when needed.

O'Raatol wrote:
If most Command Squads are only a two men strong (Apothacary + Standard Bearer) than why are we forced to take five in the Codex? Doesn't seem fair really. Why is that most GW units never match their fluff?

That's because there's no hard and fast answer. Again, because the accounts vary and conflict. Having a dedicated command squad only makes sense. And since we know that the 1000 Marines doesn't make sense, it stands to reason that, just like the Chapter actually being up to or over 1500 strong, that the Command Squad is also permanent, and not some hodge podge of veterans pulled from their line squads (thus reducing the squad's capabilities, lol).

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
that the Command Squad is also permanent, and not some hodge podge of veterans pulled from their line squads (thus reducing the squad's capabilities, lol).

I would say that would be a better idea. Anything that effects the Chapter's efficiency would be a bad idea.

Game mechanics and squad boxes may not always tie in with previously written background. Before third edition Apothecaries and Standard Bearers were bought as individual characters not part of a squad. As for rotating the Command Squad, the Captain may want advice from a particular Sergeant or Veteran because they have experience against Orks that he needs so they are removed from their squad to remain close by.

In real life, if you have a small unit leader who is also a SME on a particular type of enemy, you aren't going to pull him from his unit and disrupt their unit cohesion. The commander is going to ply him for all the information he can. Nothing happens instantaneously when it comes to interstellar combat, lol. I know the Black Library novels seem to compress the passage of time somewhat, but there would be plenty of time for a commander to gather his leadership together, even if they had to fight an enemy on "short notice". Remember, Space Marine military careers are measured in centuries, not two to three decades like in real life, where an infantry Sergeant with two seven month tours might be an expert on parts of Iraq or Afghanistan and the kinds of TTPs to expect.

Remember also that the Space Marines seem to have two promotion tracks, Veterans and Sergeants, for Marines who excel at being Marines vs excel at being leaders of Marines, as opposed most modern military organizations where one is expected to get better as a leader, or get out (or just make all your underlings miserable in a rear echelon unit, lol). Space Marines, on the other hand, don't have an "Up or Out" track like that. You're in for life, or at least life until you get blown up so many times that you're no longer able fight efficiently, even with clockwork bionic parts. Since you don't have consistent replenishment (remember, the modern US Marines recruits constantly because it really only wants to retain a small percentage of Marines past the 4 year mark (Privates and Lance Coolies make less money than Staff NCOs and you don't want too many chiefs and not enough Indians, but also, fresh bodies and minds as both get broken down the longer you are in)), Marines are going to be retained and retrained based on what their aptitudes are. A Marine who is really good at being a Marine might become a member of the 1st Company, while a Marine who is above average, but also a really good leader will become a Sergeant. Obviously the best of both of those worlds would become Veteran Sergeants, and likely from there be promoted upwards into the somewhat vague Staff positions, and if they live long enough, and show the aptitude, and somebody ahead of them dies (or gets blown into a pair of cyberwheels), they might get to be a Captain.

So realistically, a Command Squad is going to be made up of staff Sergeants and some select Veterans (virtually identical by game rules). If the command packs from Forge World suggest anything (and it's something I've mentioned often enough that maybe Forgeworld stole my idea), there are going to be guys with long range comm units (for communicating across large distances, with aircraft/artillery, or with spaceborne Fleet elements), as well as the Apothecary, the Company Chaplain, a standard bearer (if they are carrying it in battle because this is Napoleonics in spess), etc. I mean, realistically, the "in universe" Command Squad is probably ten guys at least (The Damocles Command Rhino has two dudes in the back of it) when you're splitting them up between all the command elements. If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short. That's 10% of their combat power, and dragging out a Veteran or Sergeant is probably even more of a percentage.

O'Raatol wrote:Also, yes some Space Wolves may have a tendency to fail to over come the feral part, but it is all due to the Canis Helix which is part of Leman Russ' geneseed and nothing to do with a mutation. Leman Russ himself went through a similar transformation as a child growing up on Fenris.

Perhaps it is the frequency or that Russ had more control about it - I only know that as mentioned in the Index Astartes, the Imperium considers their geneseed as flawed. Same goes for the Blood Angels.
It may well be possible that this is just "public opinion" amongst the bigwigs in the Adeptus Terra because none of them actually remembers the Primarchs. It's been 10.000 years, after all, with many truths having become twisted or forgotten, at times deliberately. Propaganda ftw. Either that, or it has somehow become "worse" over the millennia...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

I think they made 1,000 a rough number to go by during the second founding. The spirit of the reformation of the chapters is too limit the number of Astartes from the level of the Legions ( in the tens of thousands) to a lower number. Some chapters are smaller, some are larger but their aren't more than 1,500 per chapter. Also, its important to look at the Auxiliary units and the Neophytes that are counted in that number.

I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

 CuddlySquig wrote:
I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

GW just isn't very good with numbers. Really, a Chapter should be 10,000 minimum to do the kind of stuff they do in fluff, and yes that's taking into account the superhuman abilities of Space Marines.

CuddlySquig wrote:I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

You mean the basic layout of "10 companies, 10 squads, 10 guys in each"? Or the more detailed info where they also talk about the Astartes' multi-role assignments, the role of the Reserve Companies, and the so-called supernumaries? The latter makes sense, I think - although it appears obvious that it was written up as an excuse for the former.

That's what GW likes the most - recycling old stuff and lending sense to it by expanding the details and twisting them in a way that it works. Quite remarkable for a franchise which cares so little for continuity elsewhere.

Harriticus wrote:GW just isn't very good with numbers. Really, a Chapter should be 10,000 minimum to do the kind of stuff they do in fluff, and yes that's taking into account the superhuman abilities of Space Marines.

I'm sure some people might complain they're not epic enough anymore, then.

I'd rather they tone down the frequency of such heroics in order to reflect a sort-of "recuperation period" where the Chapter does little else other than training and token patrols in order to replace their losses, essentially rendering the Space Marines a high-profile asset which may really make a dent somewhere if they deploy in force (and in conjunction with regular forces, of course) - but then they'd be "on cooldown" for a while until they can be wielded again. For some Chapters this would already fit, but the popular ones seem way too active, or the writers really want us to believe that they take few to no casualties. I'm not sure which would be worse.

This has been discussed in part or in whole on some threads here before and the one I am thinking of was from 2011.
Here is Laodamia's calculation.

Laodamia wrote:

HQ
Chapter master
Honour Guard (and chapter standard bearer): 25 veterans
Reclusiam: master of the reclusiam+chaplains not attached to an individual company (3?)
High ranking officer attached to the HQ?
Transport and command vehicles: 3 land raiders (personnal vehicle of the chapter master, prometheus command vehicle) + 5 damocles rhinos. 24 crew.

Total: 54 (?)

Apothecarion
10 apothecaries (not attached to an individual company)
5 pilots for the specially modified medical rhinos

total: 15

Librarius
Chief librarian
3 epistolaries
6 codiciers
10 lexicaniums

total: 20?

Fleet:
2-3 battle barges
6 strike cruisers
5-6 escort squadrons of different types= roughly 20 escort vessels.
30-35 thunderhawk gunship: 120-140 crew
35 thunderhawk transporters: 105 crew

total: 245

Armory:
10 LR of various types: 30 crew
25 predators pf various types: 50 crew
7 razorbacks of various types: 7 pilots
5 vindicators: 10 crew
20 whirlwinds of various types: 40 crew
additionnal techmarines acting as reserve crews, maintenance and battle engineers, etc: 30
100 TDA suits

total: 157

1st Company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
100 veterans
30 crew for 10 LR of various types
10 pilots for 10 rhinos
3 dreads

total: 147 marines

2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
Standard Bearer
100 marines
10 pilots for the transport vehicles (rhinos and razorbacks)
3 dreads

total: 118 marines (each)

10th Company:
Captain
Chaplain
Apothecary
100 scouts

total: 103 marines

TOTAL: 1685; 521 of them being vehicle crews

As you can see, I removed the land speeders from my list, assuming that they are crewed by the infantry squads. I also corrected a few errors with my vehicle crews total.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/366211.page

 Lynata wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:I'm also starting to think the person who wrote the layout of a chapter company wasn't thinking it over when he penned it down.

You mean the basic layout of "10 companies, 10 squads, 10 guys in each"? Or the more detailed info where they also talk about the Astartes' multi-role assignments, the role of the Reserve Companies, and the so-called supernumaries? The latter makes sense, I think - although it appears obvious that it was written up as an excuse for the former.

That's what GW likes the most - recycling old stuff and lending sense to it by expanding the details and twisting them in a way that it works. Quite remarkable for a franchise which cares so little for continuity elsewhere.

Harriticus wrote:GW just isn't very good with numbers. Really, a Chapter should be 10,000 minimum to do the kind of stuff they do in fluff, and yes that's taking into account the superhuman abilities of Space Marines.

I'm sure some people might complain they're not epic enough anymore, then.

I'd rather they tone down the frequency of such heroics in order to reflect a sort-of "recuperation period" where the Chapter does little else other than training and token patrols in order to replace their losses, essentially rendering the Space Marines a high-profile asset which may really make a dent somewhere if they deploy in force (and in conjunction with regular forces, of course) - but then they'd be "on cooldown" for a while until they can be wielded again. For some Chapters this would already fit, but the popular ones seem way too active, or the writers really want us to believe that they take few to no casualties. I'm not sure which would be worse.

A corps of 10 million elite warriors for a galaxy of war still is pretty damn rare.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

Yeah, except I already covered how the numbers don't add up for that, and how it's fundamentally unsound according to any and all schools of military thought, lol.

I would say the numbers add up fine as long as you keep in mind that supernumaries do not count to the total, and that a Chapter will never be able to actually deploy ten companies with ten squads each and with vehicle support. But let's not debate over such intricacies, we know where that will lead and I should have probably better kept my mouth shut. Let's just settle for mutual acknowledgement of different opinions/interpretations instead.

As for the "schools of military thought" - welcome to the 41st millennium.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

Yeah, except I already covered how the numbers don't add up for that, and how it's fundamentally unsound according to any and all schools of military thought, lol.

At present though you are attempting to apply schools of military thought and, I assume, your own experience with a game and fictional background written by men who may have no military experience past watching war films on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon (the usual time British TV showed them in the 70s and 80s). In that fictional background a Chapter of 1000 nominal warriors works. For a real life battalion in Afghanistan it would never work.

alphaecho wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you're pulling Marines from the line squads, you're talking about leaving all of your squads one, possibly even two Marines short.

That's ultimately what the Reserve Companies are for - to send replacements to the Line Formations on an as-needed basis, as well as to offer vehicle support.

Yeah, except I already covered how the numbers don't add up for that, and how it's fundamentally unsound according to any and all schools of military thought, lol.

At present though you are attempting to apply schools of military thought and, I assume, your own experience with a game and fictional background written by men who may have no military experience past watching war films on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon (the usual time British TV showed them in the 70s and 80s). In that fictional background a Chapter of 1000 nominal warriors works. For a real life battalion in Afghanistan it would never work.

+1

I completely agree with this statement. Space Marines may be super-humans, they may worth 100 or 1000 Guardsmen. But when it comes to planetary invasion you cannot defeat a race or nation with only 1000 warriors - at least when it comes to real world.

But to credit 40k, most of invasion work like this - you take the capital and the planet falls apart. And most 40k planets have one single capital city ( or several at least, not counting the Hive Cities of course ).

The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

Dont worry, BT will save you all in the end. Thank us then.

In response to OP

I was wondering this my self, if you are wondering about things like tank drivers and pilots, those dont count. when they say 1000 strong they mean 1000 foot soldiers so the 1000 consist of tactical, assault, devastators, honor guard, terminator, ect ect. this is from what i have been told.

I thought the Imperium was loosely based on the Roman Empire?

It is a little known fact the ancient empires of earth (Roman, Egyption, Babalon etc...) used to count in 12's not tens. On that note there are 12 squads per company and technicaly 12 companies - the standard 10, a double strength Techmarine company and new recruits for my chapter totaling somewhere near 1500 at full strength

Graphite wrote:
The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

I like this post a lot because it is not complaining and makes inferences from given information. I avoided this thread but I am glad I read it and it turned out ok since I didn't have to read most of it.

Food for thought, oh posters of skippable posts: a tactical squad has ten marines. Eight marines can never be a tactical squad; they are just eight guys. A captain probably prefers to break up one squad to crew the remaining rhinos than to have multiple non-squads that are too small to do what their jobs are.

Graphite wrote:
The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

The problem is, while your manpower needs decrease, the more your force multipliers decrease alongside them.

It isn't about whether or not they could, it's about whether or not you would. It seems rather silly to think that running a Marine Chapter means constantly doing equations to figure out how to use your large amount of resources with a limited amount of manpower. "Can we bring the Whirlwind along today?" "No, we've only got 45 guys today, and we're going to need to take that Landspeeder for reconnaissance. That only leaves Brother Dudicus as an ancillary, and we need two Marines to crew the Whirlwind, so I've remanded him to my Command Squad to serve as a Plasma Gunner."

Given how often the Chapter is broken up into smaller elements, this ludicrous force divisor (that's not even a military term because it's so stupid of an idea) becomes even more exacerbated. Thinking about 1000 guys minus crews is one thing. When you're deploying a company or two, suddenly the percentage of combat power lost by reassignment becomes greater for each Marine whose duty has to be reallocated to another task. We're into theories derived from basic economics almost now, lol.

I mean, there's no hard and fast answer to any of it. But as the definition of a Space Marine Chapter and its assets has evolved, the 1000 has stayed constant. We keep getting new vehicles and flyers and space fleets, and all of this, extra stuff. And still only 1000 guys to do it all. And right now, that's 40-50% of their combat capability at maximum strength. It's not terribly difficult to see how this is a problem when you start crunching the numbers.

Graphite wrote:The thing is, a Marine chapter isn’t a mechanized infantry formation, or an airmobile force, or drop troops, or several small recon groups, or an infantry siege force, or a fast armored spearhead, or ship to ship boarding parties, or individual special forces squads, or an elite group of infantry to bolster the line, or any other conventional military formation. It’s all of those, and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

By the time a Marine makes it to a battle company, or probably even the Tactical reserve companies, he’s been trained in everything. He doesn’t need to specialize like a normal human, because he has hundreds of years to learn all this stuff and no prospect of retirement. So he’s a rifleman/assault trooper/machine gunner/pilot/scout/tank driver/artilleryman/ship’s officer. He can do it all, and he won’t be miserable because he’s been assigned a role that carries less chance for glory.

Once you have a force where (nearly) everyone can do (nearly) everything, your manpower requirements to make an all arms force shoot down. A chapter of 1000 line marines plus supernumeraries seems a lot more viable when you’re not trying to make it 10 full infantry companies plus support, and for example go for 5 full mechanised infantry companies heavily backed up with tanks, artillery and transport from the reserve companies, plus air support. That’ll be quite a nasty little conventional fighting force, on the occasions the chapter wants one.

Kudos, well written post! And very much in line with what the Codex says about the Battle Companies almost always deploying heavily augmented by troops from the Reserve who provide specialist assistance and vehicular support. More people should read the Codex fluff, and more people should read your post.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
I completely agree with this statement. Space Marines may be super-humans, they may worth 100 or 1000 Guardsmen. But when it comes to planetary invasion you cannot defeat a race or nation with only 1000 warriors - at least when it comes to real world.

But to credit 40k, most of invasion work like this - you take the capital and the planet falls apart. And most 40k planets have one single capital city ( or several at least, not counting the Hive Cities of course ).

Arr, but the Chapter as a WHOLE is NEVER deployed into one battle only the Battle Companies are deployed because if they suffered 90% casualties that would destroy the Chapter. So no, the world would not be taken by 1000 warriors. It would be taken by 2-3 IG Legions backed up by several companies probably from several Chapters from the surrounding sector.

But I do agree, most victories in 40k do seem to be one crucial battle at one particular city.

Graphite wrote:
... and can change which it wants to be more or less at will.

And everything is an honor, rather than a pain in the neck as it would be in a real military. Your infantry squad has been broken up to drive the company Rhinos? No problem, thank you for entrusting me with this honor. I’m going to sit in a ditch for 3 weeks without sleep while the rest of my squad is assigned to pilot thunderhawks? The line will be held!

1, as we have already established, Marines don't drive the Rhinos or Thunderhawks.
2, squads would not be broke up in such a way as to leave two behind wile the rest do other stuff. Combat Squads are the smallest seperation that a Chapter does.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Food for thought, oh posters of skippable posts: a tactical squad has ten marines. Eight marines can never be a tactical squad; they are just eight guys. A captain probably prefers to break up one squad to crew the remaining rhinos than to have multiple non-squads that are too small to do what their jobs are.

Combat Squad = 5 Marines, Tactical Squad = 10. 8 = Tactical squad that has losses.
And again, Marines dont drive rhinos.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
It isn't about whether or not they could, it's about whether or not you would. It seems rather silly to think that running a Marine Chapter means constantly doing equations to figure out how to use your large amount of resources with a limited amount of manpower. "Can we bring the Whirlwind along today?" "No, we've only got 45 guys today, and we're going to need to take that Landspeeder for reconnaissance. That only leaves Brother Dudicus as an ancillary, and we need two Marines to crew the Whirlwind, so I've remanded him to my Command Squad to serve as a Plasma Gunner."

Again, Marines don't drive Whirlwinds. And the Land Speeder would be piloted by Marines from the 7th Company so whatever Company you have those 45 Marines from you would kepp the 45 Marines plus the Vehicles.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Given how often the Chapter is broken up into smaller elements, this ludicrous force divisor (that's not even a military term because it's so stupid of an idea) becomes even more exacerbated. Thinking about 1000 guys minus crews is one thing. When you're deploying a company or two, suddenly the percentage of combat power lost by reassignment becomes greater for each Marine whose duty has to be reallocated to another task. We're into theories derived from basic economics almost now, lol.

Yes but what he was saying, I think, is not so much that the Marines are reassigned to different tasks, it's just that each squad can do whatever task they are given. So one day they might be Boarders on a Hulk, next they may be fire support for fellow squads or they might be sent in as a rapid response team in their rhino. Its not like, 'oh send him to be a devastator today, while you two pilot a land speeder, and the rest of you wreck that tank' its more 'today we're assault troops, tomorrow were tank hunters, ok?'.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, there's no hard and fast answer to any of it. But as the definition of a Space Marine Chapter and its assets has evolved, the 1000 has stayed constant. We keep getting new vehicles and flyers and space fleets, and all of this, extra stuff. And still only 1000 guys to do it all. And right now, that's 40-50% of their combat capability at maximum strength. It's not terribly difficult to see how this is a problem when you start crunching the numbers.

New vehicles STILL NOT DRIVEN BY MARINES so no changes there and flyers which are taken in support and are piloted by 7th Company Marines so no extra duties for a Battle Company there either, so what are you actually complaining about???

 O'Raatol wrote:


Arr, but the Chapter as a WHOLE is NEVER deployed into one battle only the Battle Companies are deployed because if they suffered 90% casualties that would destroy the Chapter.

That's actually not true, we have several established instances in which Chapters have deployed the entire Chapter. Armageddon 3 has 2 or 3 Chapters do it, Black 13th has several Chapters(including the Dark Angels) show up in full, and so does the Badab War, to name a few.