I'm getting some death korps of kreig soon and I'm wondering if you would play aginst them?

I've played against FW models, just let me know of potential special rules that could throw me off guard

Oh I phrased the first part wrong i ment if yow were just some random guy at GW would you play me

I would. FW models are cool.

I certainly would, as would nearly all the others in my store, I reccomend an alternate list using Codex:IG if you plan on attending local tournies that do not allow FW or FW lists, if a player refuses to play your DKoK, simply add vendettas to make it codex.

Against a forgeworld army? Yeah. You'd probably need to explain a lot of the strange rules, though.

If you were playing a regular army and included forgeworld units for any reason other than you think they're cool, then you're already probably not the kind of person I'm going to want to play a game with.

Not necessarily, but odds are good.

 Ailaros wrote:
Against a forgeworld army? Yeah. You'd probably need to explain a lot of the strange rules, though.

If you were playing a regular army and included forgeworld units for any reason other than you think they're cool, then you're already probably not the kind of person I'm going to want to play a game with.

Not necessarily, but odds are good.

I choose my armies completely on looks

Models*

If you're playing a regular codex army but using Forgeworld models, for instance Death Korps as Imperial Guard, then yeah, no question. Very few people will give you any guff for that. If you're playing using Forgeworld rules as well, you'll just need to explain what does what as the game goes on, since most people haven't played extensively against armies out of Forgeworld books.

I'll play you if you have Forgeworld, Scratchbuilt, Home-made (within reason). I'll glance over the rules beforehand, but unless it's glaringly OTT or broken, I'll play anything at least once.

At the end of the day, non-apoc Forgeworld units are generally fine, and die just as easily as their 'standard' 40K equivalents (and often cost more points for it.)

If it looks cool and the rules are alright go for it!

Not unless I had some...and I don't, so nope.

I would play you. I love FW models. Although, I would like to be alerted of any changed or new special rules with them before the game begins.

I would play you especially because you had Forge World models. They are great looking if expensive.

 Coolyo294 wrote:
I would. FW models are cool.

This.

Rule of Cool > All else.

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

 Deathshead420 wrote:
Not unless I had some...and I don't, so nope.

I'm curious. Does this arbitrary limitation apply to other models? And if not, why single out FW?

Tell me what I'm in for, let me know roughly what things do, and if I ask, let me look at your book so I can see their rules word for word.

No different than playing a normal GW dex that I've never been up against. Everything is new once. And gimmicks are only gonna help you so much against the might of the Imperial Guard...

Also, if you let me use the Armoured Battlegroup list I'll be EXTRA happy

I'd play them. As long as they have the proper rules I really don't care if they use FW or GW. Plus, Forgeworld models rock.

Just give me a quick heads up on the special rules before hand and I wouldn't mind.

Forgeworld models rock. I wish I had some, so instead I'll settle with playing against yours.

So long as they are not Apoc units yeah

There's no more or less reason to refuse FW stuff than codex stuff, it's all Games Workshop models and rules in the end and it all exists in the 40k universe.

I love Forgeworld, and have a number of their kits across my armies. As far as the Forgeworld army list goes, If you had the book on you, and were willing to give me a few minutes to look over it before the game so I could get a feel for the army, then I'd jump at the opportunity.

 Kaldor wrote:
Of course. Why wouldn't I?

 Deathshead420 wrote:
Not unless I had some...and I don't, so nope.

I'm curious. Does this arbitrary limitation apply to other models? And if not, why single out FW?

You mean limitations such as units designed for 40k use

AND
units for apocalypse use? like.... units even GW stamped with

Like units of cheap 450pts with structure points and 96" str 10 10 inch blast template weapons?

Its obviously different weight class, like having an adult vs child slugging match.
Sure anything is allowed if agreed upon on, but in a fair match? I highly doubt the power difference makes it fair.

Yes, yes i would. its the point of the game to play people and saying a beat or got beaten its all another battle i can learn from adds variety also after all ive played about 2 maybe 3 ig wonder how they play any diffrent from reguler granted id not want super heavys in the game but outher then that (unless its apoc)

DKoK face off, GO!

Sure I would, even got the rules printed.

Kwah: The Death Korps have Stubborn army wide, +1 WS 4 army wise and cheap artillery, and light artillery in the elite slots, and stormtroopers that can't deepstrike, however most units have an IG 'dex equivalent, bar the Thudd Gun, the Bombard,the Engineers/Hades Drill and the Quartermaster.

As long as I knew about it beforehand, and had a brief overview whilst deploying about what special shenanigans might come my way.
Certain things in FW I find downright broke, and if the list/army was built solely around tons of that than I'd probably still play but I might whine a bit.

 Deathshead420 wrote:
Not unless I had some...and I don't, so nope.

I don't have any Eldar, I refuse to play against Eldar. Yep, makes sense.

But I do have the Eldar codex


i'm sure i would let someone use them, as long as they didn't seem like TFG.

The reason i was harsh before is I have a hard enough time remembering all the stuff in the main dexs, let alone forgeworld rules.

Also @ Brother srm you make it seem like Eldar and Dkok are the same. Where in the US can I walk in and buy some?

I would play against you under the condition that I am allowed to go through the rulebook to make sure everything works, and ask question before the game starts. Although I don't have any FW models, I fully support their place in the game and would gladly play against them if I had the opportunity.

Certainly.

With the caveat of no apocalypse oriented units, so no super heavies, bio-titans etc for regular pick up games. Anything else though, whether a full Forgeworld list or your normal codex with a few models/variations and it's game on.

 Deathshead420 wrote:
Also @ Brother srm you make it seem like Eldar and Dkok are the same. Where in the US can I walk in and buy some?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/

In a world where you buy everything from delivery pizza to 40k models online the whole "FW is hard to find" argument is pretty silly.

RegalPhantom wrote:
I would play against you under the condition that I am allowed to go through the rulebook to make sure everything works, and ask question before the game starts. Although I don't have any FW models, I fully support their place in the game and would gladly play against them if I had the opportunity.

Of course this is a pretty good rule in general. Whether or not you're playing with FW models you should always allow your opponent to read your army list and any required rule books and answer any questions about how the rules work. I always make that offer before I start a game, and explain very clearly what each model represents.

I have nothing against most FW models (aside from production quality or lack thereof) and the rest are because their rules ARE pants-on-head-drunken-stupid.

I'll refuse to play against them based on the player, though. Have several times, and I have no problems with this. They tend to be the blinkered, one-eyed, GW-is-mother, GW-is-father, there are no other games bar GW frothing maniacs anyway. So no great loss there.

Deathshead420 wrote:

Also @ Brother srm you make it seem like Eldar and Dkok are the same. Where in the US can I walk in and buy some?

By that reasoning, where can you find SoB models, and even rarer, their rules?

Why wouldn't people play against official Warhammer 40k models?

I use my Contemptor Mortis because it looks freaking cool.

And it's more useful than Aegis line.

Does that make me a dick because I use it because it looks cool, but I also use it because it's good?

I allow my opponent to read the Contemptor rules before the game begins, and if something surprises them, it's their fault at that point. >.>

I would be happy to play agenst a player that was honest and would let me read and ask questions.
It's addon content and should be treated the same way you would in a board game I think, more like an expantion pack. Some people like to play with the standard stuff and others don't.

It all comes down to atatude presenting it at the table

If anyone says no; they're a fool.

By that reasoning, where can you find SoB models, and even rarer, their rules?

Touche

I played in a ongoing cup in the local club, and where going to meet a player I had never even spoken to before. I asked him if he has ok with me using my Chaos Spined Beast, I told him all the rules and said something about that the model is much larger and more impresive than the rules. He told me ok. I won the battle, but the Giant Spawn meet a squad of repetinas and died a horrible death after killing only one.

What I am trying to say is: speak to your oppendent, and try to keep the suprises at a minimale, and you will most likely not meet much resistance in the "am I alowed" department.

Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

But Spearhead and Planetstrike are different rulesets / expansions, with their own crazy additional rules (And some Apoc rules if I remember rightly?).

Forgeworld Warhammer 40,000 Units are simply additional units to use within the game - frankly no different to using Allies at this point.

There's this stigma about Forgeworld models / units that I don't really understand, and I think it often stems from ignorance - people have been told (probably by long term players, or people continuing old stereotypes) that Forgeworld is this immensely overpower creation full of broken and dead puppies.

But when you actually look at it, the majority of the stuff with the 40K stamp is fine, yeah there's a few iffy things, but there are in 40K as it is (How many times do I see complaints about Vendettas, Necrons, Grey Knights, etc...)

At the end of the day, they look cool, the rules are generally sound, and it's usually going to be an interesting game.

Why not, Krieg are aweome.

+it adds verity in game, something new to standard army adn rules.
I don't care if some models are OP for basic 40k games - I would play FW any day of the week.

Brother maximus wrote:
I'm getting some death korps of kreig soon and I'm wondering if you would play aginst them?

Absolutely.

You're saying models, but I think you're meaning rules, as in the DKoK Army List from the IA books. In that case, my answer is still absolutely.

If you're worried about tournaments in your area, you should probably call the local stores that run them or talk to the TOs to see if their tournaments are FW friendly (if you care about tournaments).

I would once. I played against my friends Tau in 5th and 6th edition broke the tau tetra... HARD. Its so much better, cheaper, and ... well fething bettter than pathfinders, he only ever plays them anymore. His TT effectiveness skyrocketed and it got to the point where I told him I wasnt going to play him if he insisted on using a crutch to supplement his codex's age. He went to a tourny without them, totally different game.

I dont understand either. I have played 6th with my tau, and dont have any problems winning while sticking to core codex stuff. So forgive me if I dont feel like everyone here and say, as a blanket statement, that forgeworld is peachy keen. In my limited experience, FW stuff (that actually makes it to the TT) is even less balanced than GW stuff proper. So no, with allies and such in this edition, I dont like FW.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
I would once. I played against my friends Tau in 5th and 6th edition broke the tau tetra... HARD. Its so much better, cheaper, and ... well fething bettter than pathfinders, he only ever plays them anymore. His TT effectiveness skyrocketed and it got to the point where I told him I wasnt going to play him if he insisted on using a crutch to supplement his codex's age. He went to a tourny without them, totally different game.

I dont understand either. I have played 6th with my tau, and dont have any problems winning while sticking to core codex stuff. So forgive me if I dont feel like everyone here and say, as a blanket statement, that forgeworld is peachy keen. In my limited experience, FW stuff (that actually makes it to the TT) is even less balanced than GW stuff proper. So no, with allies and such in this edition, I dont like FW.

I feel this is more of a problem with the player, than with FW. Ofcourse more toys= more combos, and a duche will find a way to break/bend FW to make a more powerfull army. A friendly player will use FW to make a more flavorfull army.

Love playing against FW for all the reasons others have given, cool models, different challenges etc. Then again, my local store is a hotbed of FW armies and special characters anyway. The first time I took my Iyanden Army of the Dead in I was castigated for NOT using my WraithSeer to lead it; they wanted to see how it looked and performed on the table.

It seems the players that do generally fuss over FW stuff are the older guys that have been in the game for ages; the youngers guys are all over it. Sweeping generalisation ofc but just my experience.

I recently used my FW contemptor in a game guess what my opponents know what it does and if they don't I hand them Aeronautica.

As long as you have the rules for your army i will play you and I will beat you.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I would once. I played against my friends Tau in 5th and 6th edition broke the tau tetra... HARD. Its so much better, cheaper, and ... well fething bettter than pathfinders, he only ever plays them anymore. His TT effectiveness skyrocketed and it got to the point where I told him I wasnt going to play him if he insisted on using a crutch to supplement his codex's age. He went to a tourny without them, totally different game.

I dont understand either. I have played 6th with my tau, and dont have any problems winning while sticking to core codex stuff. So forgive me if I dont feel like everyone here and say, as a blanket statement, that forgeworld is peachy keen. In my limited experience, FW stuff (that actually makes it to the TT) is even less balanced than GW stuff proper. So no, with allies and such in this edition, I dont like FW.

I feel this also in part, due to the inherrently flawed nature of Pathfinders. If you didn't have to take the 80-100+ points of mediocre transport, they'd be great.
The forced Devilfish prices them up too much.

Hell, I wouldn't be entirely surprisedif pathfinders became troops and Tetras were included in the standard codex once it's updated.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

What's there to prepare for any more than playing against codex-only armies?

 Ovion wrote:
But Spearhead and Planetstrike are different rulesets / expansions, with their own crazy additional rules (And some Apoc rules if I remember rightly?).

As are the Imperial Armour books (see lower right-hand corner)

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
But Spearhead and Planetstrike are different rulesets / expansions, with their own crazy additional rules (And some Apoc rules if I remember rightly?).

As are the Imperial Armour books (see lower right-hand corner)

They don't do that on recent books. The recent books say the units are fully integrated into 40k or Apocalypse, and call out each unit for which belongs in which game.

As for would I, of course. I would play against any of the 40k units in any game of 40k, no complaints or restrictions.

I would play against none of the Apocalypse units because I don't play Apocalypse games and those units don't belong in 40k.

Some Forgeworld stuff is monstrously OP, most of it isn't. Typically, I don't have any problem with playing using Forgeworld units (I'm adding an Avenger to my collection, personally), but I can also understand why some clubs ban certain FW units for competitive play, and I endorse that.

Though if you're literally just talking about using FW models with the existing GW rules, more power to you.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

I would play with anyone using 40K Imperial Armor rules provided:

1) They are the latest updated rules for that item/character.
2) They are actual FW models representing.
3) They fit in a regular codex list.
4) No more than a single unit of that type in the list (no spamming cheese, just a sprinkle).

If you're spamming dreadclaws with your chaos army = bad. One dreadclaw = AWESOME. A unit of cheap guns for IG is ok, filling up all your force orgs with platform spam is bad.

Using FW models (or any at all) for Counts-As is perfectly fine, absolutely no issues.

 Ovion wrote:

At the end of the day, non-apoc Forgeworld units are generally fine, and die just as easily as their 'standard' 40K equivalents (and often cost more points for it.)

My feelings now that 6th is so wacky.

I also think it is a good way to bring armies like Eldar back to the table-top. They need some shiny.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as there is no spearhead FoC in an official game of 40k, but if you want a 500+ point handicap, sure.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

I don't even see what would be bad about multiple dreadclaws, they aren't armed with anything substantial, playing hot potato transport with them is rather awkward and not as functional as it might otherwise look, and they're significantly more points than loyalist drop pods. Artillery spam is a bit different since GW changed them from being AV10 "glance-it-kill-it" to "T7 W2 3+sv" fantasy style units, so they're a bit beefy, but generally as soon as you get into CC with them with *anything* they die.

In my experience the proper Forge World army lists (Death Korps, Elysians, Corsairs, and Tyrant's Legion) fit reasonably well in normal 40k, they're not particularly broken or underpowered. I'd be perfectly fine with them in a random pick-up game at a GW store.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

That's fine, I'd feel bad for the Krieg PDF and all those fancy experimental rules on the Forgeworld and GW site, but I'm still fine with drawing from official codex. Thankfully I can still use my Decimator model as a counts-as Chaos Contemptor, which was added to the official codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't even see what would be bad about multiple dreadclaws, they aren't armed with anything substantial, playing hot potato transport with them is rather awkward and not as functional as it might otherwise look, and they're significantly more points than loyalist drop pods

And they take up a force org slot, can't take a weapon, and don't have Inertial Guidance like drop pods do.

 Brother SRM wrote:
If you're playing using Forgeworld rules as well, you'll just need to explain what does what as the game goes on, since most people haven't played extensively against armies out of Forgeworld books.

As I'm pretty much the only Eldar players in a 50 mile radius I already have to do this. I'd be good with playing against FW models. I'm considering buying some myself (once I finish play-testing Shining Spears again though.)

 Ovion wrote:
There's this stigma about Forgeworld models / units that I don't really understand, and I think it often stems from ignorance - people have been told (probably by long term players, or people continuing old stereotypes) that Forgeworld is this immensely overpower creation full of broken and dead puppies.

AFAIK there's only a couple really broken FW units, like the drop pods you can assault out of.

The rest is probably an unwillingness to play against units you know nothing about. The normal Codexes are in plentiful supply and you should be able to check a copy somewhere - your friend, your local game store and so on. IA books on the other hand are FW orders, and if a game store has them they're generally not keeping store copies for you to use. Add in that people often are too lazy to bring the FAQs for their own Codex or the BRB. Why should you trust them to have all the updates for their FW units?

Even the dread-assault pods aren't so bad anymore (in 5th they were disgusting). It's only dreads that can use them, they take a force org slot, the dreads face some risk using them, and with HP's in 6th ed, it's about the only way dread is going go actually get stuck in against a half-competent opponent.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

That's fine, I'd feel bad for the Krieg PDF and all those fancy experimental rules on the Forgeworld and GW site, but I'm still fine with drawing from official codex. Thankfully I can still use my Decimator model as a counts-as Chaos Contemptor, which was added to the official codex.

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
But Spearhead and Planetstrike are different rulesets / expansions, with their own crazy additional rules (And some Apoc rules if I remember rightly?).

As are the Imperial Armour books (see lower right-hand corner)

Spoiler:

Except this is an outdated stance that no longer applies.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

That's fine, I'd feel bad for the Krieg PDF and all those fancy experimental rules on the Forgeworld and GW site, but I'm still fine with drawing from official codex. Thankfully I can still use my Decimator model as a counts-as Chaos Contemptor, which was added to the official codex.

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

How about you look at it's page where it says it's a part of the Chaos Space Marine Codex?

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

That's a stupid comparison. Spearhead and Planetstrike are expansions that require both players to bring non-standard lists, use non-standard strategies (for example, all their units have to deep strike), and can not be played by only one player while the other plays standard 40k. Forgeworld rules are explicitly part of standard 40k, not an expansion. Using them is no different than using a standard 40k unit printed in the codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

IA:Apocalypse added it to the CSM codex.

Zweischneid wrote:

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

And which codex release does the book tell you to use, how do the rules define codex, etc?

These units exist within the Warhammer 40,000 universe like anything you'd find in any other GW book. They're designed, published, manufactured and distributed by GW to be used within the context of basic play (using standard FoC rules and standard rulebook missions and recommended points levels). If you're having a problem just because it's printed one place and not other, that's about as pedantic and petty as one can get.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


How about you look at it's page where it says it's a part of the Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Seems identical to the entry that says Spearhead or Planetstrike formations are alternatives FoC to be used with the various Codexes. They even included that in the small 6th Edition rulebook.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
If you're having a problem just because it's printed one place and not other, that's about as pedantic and petty as one can get.

I don't.

I am just reciprocating Zebio's logic for denying me my Spearhead formation. Using his logic, Forge World would be a no go.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Seems identical to the entry that says Spearhead or Planetstrike formations are alternatives FoC to be used with the various Codexes. They even included that in the small 6th Edition rulebook.

Except those are expansions and not part of standard 40k, so you need to play a special expansion game to use them. FW rules are part of standard 40k, and are played in standard games just like any other choice of unit from a codex or WD.

I am just reciprocating Zebio's logic for denying me my Spearhead formation. Using his logic, Forge World would be a no go.

Entirely wrong. Stop using obsolete rules that were replaced years ago.

I use Forge World *models* quite frequently and have never had a problem... quite to the contrary, most folks love to see them. As for using IA rules... I never "spring" them on anyone. I let them know well ahead of time that I'd like to use them and provide them with their own copy of the rules if they request it, so there are no surprises. Still... their choice with no pressure from me. Mostly though... I proxy FW models and normal codex units & never have an issue.

I would happily play vs. IA rules as long as I knew ahead of time what they were & they didn't seem horribly over-balancing (which most aren't).

I don't.

I am just reciprocating Zebio's logic for denying me my Spearhead formation. Using his logic, Forge World would be a no go.

Except you are using an unofficial FoC in an official game, while the codex units I'm using are simply added officially without need of any unofficial FoC style or required FoC change that is not done through a main codex that would facilitate it. Maybe if Dark Angels has a Spearhead formation added to it's FoC you can use it some game.

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

The official Imperial Apocalypse - Second edition codex adds it to the main chaos codex, no different than the nightspinner for Eldar.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Seems identical to the entry that says Spearhead or Planetstrike formations are alternatives FoC to be used with the various Codexes. They even included that in the small 6th Edition rulebook.

Except those are expansions and not part of standard 40k, so you need to play a special expansion game to use them. FW rules are part of standard 40k, and are played in standard games just like any other choice of unit from a codex or WD.

P. 109 of the mini rulebook states that variant, indeed "non-standard" FoC can be used. Either because you go over 2000 points or because you use formations from books like Spearhead.

Since my list which I bring to the game with Zebio includes a formation from the latter, that is what we'll do. I cannot find any sort of requirements or obligations that would force me to give Zebio any sort of "head-notice" of the kind as he asks for.

Though, of course, good manners would imply that I tell him a day or so earlier that I'll intend to bring Spearhead just as it would imply he tells me that he intends to bring Forge World.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Except you are using an unofficial FoC in an official game, while the codex units I'm using are simply added officially without need of any unofficial FoC style or required FoC change that is not done through a main codex that would facilitate it. Maybe if Dark Angels has a Spearhead formation added to it's FoC you can use it some game.

How is it "unofficial". Spearhead a regular GW product.

P. 109 of the mini rulebook states that variant, indeed "non-standard" FoC can be used. Either because you go over 2000 points or because you use formations from books like Spearhead.

I'm not sure where you are getting Non-Standard at, because the doubled FoC chart is indeed an official standard, as listed in the main rulebook on page 109. You may take an additional primary detachment. That is not a non-standard, it is a standard for 2000+ games, there is no additional variation. You may take an additional detachment.

How is it "unofficial". Spearhead a regular GW product.

Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

"Some missions, such as those presented in Planetstrike and other Warhammer 40.000 supplements, use different Force Organisation charts. Where that is the case, any alternations or substitutions will be explained there."

6th Edition Rulebook p. 110. (mini version).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

They don't alter the rules any more or less by adding different FoC slots than Forge World books do by adding different units to FoC slots.

I am not sure why one is "unofficial" to you but the other isn't? Seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

"Some missions, such as those presented in Planetstrike and other Warhammer 40.000 supplements, use different Force Organisation charts. Where that is the case, any alternations or substitutions will be explained there."

6th Edition Rulebook p. 110. (mini version).

Except under the main rulebook. They are listed under

Non-Standard Missions

Unofficial as they were, as well as being supplements, as is listed by the book itself.

They don't alter the rules any more or less by adding different FoC slots than Forge World books do by adding different units to FoC slots.

Because it's no different than White Dwarf adding new units or changes to the books. Simple enough no? Or do you consider those unofficial somehow?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
In my limited experience, FW stuff (that actually makes it to the TT) is even less balanced than GW stuff proper.

You are wrong because Necron fliers.

 Zweischneid wrote:
If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 [u]codex[/u

Ah, see, this is where your confusion is stemming from!

No, codexes are not the only source of official units. In fact, many other GW publications, notably White Dwarf and Forge World also contain official units for use in regular games of 40K! It's easy to tell which units these are, as their entries carry an 'official for use in 40K' stamp!

Glad I could help clear up the difference between something like an Apocalypse unit or a Spearhead formation, and regular units intended for use in 40K

 Zweischneid wrote:
"Some missions, such as those presented in Planetstrike and other Warhammer 40.000 supplements, use different Force Organisation charts. Where that is the case, any alternations or substitutions will be explained there."

Key point: some missions. To use those options you have to agree with your opponent in advance to play one of those special missions instead of one of the standard core rulebook missions. This is NOT true of FW rules, which are part of standard 40k just like you don't have to make special agreements to take a flamer on your tactical squad instead of a plasma gun.

Since we don't allow FW in tournaments here, don't really care to play against FW in a competitive battle, but I don't think I'd mind if someone put together a fun list and wanted to play.

That said, no one here uses FW, ever.

This is all I'm seeing from a certain user ATM.


FW is perfectly fine. Any of the flimsy excuses for disallowing it have disappeared due to allies, fortifications and fliers all being an integral part of 6th. I really do not get the need for someone to go through a FW list with a fine tooth comb, desperately trying to find something wrong with it so they can feel good about themselves to disallow it. The amount of FW units that are considered unbalanced is not even into double figures yet (IMO), out of the hundreds that they do.

Then there's the issue of access to the rules. You can either buy the books off the FW website (too expensive? That's your problem, not GW's, just like with the whole issue of the rules for the Storm Talon only being on the iPad version of the SM codex, unless you can track down a copy of the WD it was in) if you want to know every possible unit in 40k, or your opponent will possess a copy of them, if not then they're not using them; just like if they've not got their codex.

There are zero issues here, and anyone trying to make one is just making a storm in a teacup.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't even see what would be bad about multiple dreadclaws, they aren't armed with anything substantial, playing hot potato transport with them is rather awkward and not as functional as it might otherwise look, and they're significantly more points than loyalist drop pods. Artillery spam is a bit different since GW changed them from being AV10 "glance-it-kill-it" to "T7 W2 3+sv" fantasy style units, so they're a bit beefy, but generally as soon as you get into CC with them with *anything* they die.

A CSM drop pod army, though I would kill for it as a CSM player myself, radically changes the nature of the CSM codex. Apparently being godlike in CC, chaos must also be stranded on its own side of the field and is forced to have very little mobility in exchange. Dreadclaws, though seemingly a few points overpriced, would upset that balance en masse and turn a mediocre codex into a Ward-dex.

Artillery piece spam also radically alters the IG codex, basically giving a 40% discount to artillery pieces with little downside. Who moves their basilisks much anyways? Being allowed to spam those in lieu of their Codex IG version means you would have 5 big guns for every 3 you paid for. They're still AV10 in close combat, regadless of chassis or lack thereof.

For this, Imperial Armor stuff should be allowed, but in very limited (non-spammable) quantities to avoid upsetting GW's very cafefully considered *cough*bs*cough* balancing efforts with their primary codices.

A CSM drop pod army, though I would kill for it as a CSM player myself, radically changes the nature of the CSM codex. Apparently being godlike in CC, chaos must also be stranded on its own side of the field and is forced to have very little mobility in exchange. Dreadclaws, though seemingly a few points overpriced, would upset that balance en masse and turn a mediocre codex into a Ward-dex

I..Cannot tell if this is joking or being serious because this is quite laughable.

Artillery piece spam also radically alters the IG codex, basically giving a 40% discount to artillery pieces with little downside. Who moves their basilisks much anyways? Being allowed to spam those in lieu of their Codex IG version means you would have 5 big guns for every 3 you paid for. They're still AV10 in close combat, regadless of chassis or lack thereof.

I guess you are referring to to the Earthshaker Platform, which cuts all the trimming's except for the gun itself.

To be fair I'd never seen anyone take artillery of any sort, seeing some actual artillery would be nice, though sadly the weapon has not updated into 6th, which means it's only 45% cheaper because it does not need the Indirect firing option due to the change to the barrage rules.

PolecatEZ wrote:

A CSM drop pod army, though I would kill for it as a CSM player myself, radically changes the nature of the CSM codex. Apparently being godlike in CC, chaos must also be stranded on its own side of the field and is forced to have very little mobility in exchange. Dreadclaws, though seemingly a few points overpriced, would upset that balance en masse and turn a mediocre codex into a Ward-dex.

Hrm, methinks you're overstating that quite a bit. First, those pods don't even start to come in until turn 2, and it's not like you can charge out of them so the earliest you could even get into CC is turn 3, after the enemy had a chance to shoot you.

CSM's also really aren't "godlike" in CC. A few units are rather capable at it, but having an 85pt drop pod that has to come in from normal reserves, takes up an FoC slot, and doesn't have the DS safety of normal drop pods is hardly gamebreaking, I can't think of a situation where showing up with 3 (the max you can have) would be in any way abusive.

Artillery piece spam also radically alters the IG codex, basically giving a 40% discount to artillery pieces with little downside. Who moves their basilisks much anyways? Being allowed to spam those in lieu of their Codex IG version means you would have 5 big guns for every 3 you paid for. They're still AV10 in close combat, regadless of chassis or lack thereof.

They're only Ld7 and vulnerable to Ld tests, and only the WS3 S3 T3 I3 5+sv Ld7 crew are involved in any assaults. You get more guns if you're buying them in bulk, but they're notably easier to engage and can't reposition, have no secondary weapons (e.g. hull heavy flamers that make really nice work of outflanking units like Kroot, Scouts, etc) besides lasguns, and are vulnerable to Ld7 morale tests.

Why I wouldn't play against forgeworld unless I had some:

Shadowsword.

Macharius.

Spartan.

Typhon.

Fellblade.

Bio-Titan.

Harridan.

Titans.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why I wouldn't play against forgeworld unless I had some:

Shadowsword.

Macharius.

Spartan.

Typhon.

Fellblade.

Bio-Titan.

Harridan.

Titans.

Most of those are apoc only units, the spartan is the only one that isn't IIRC.
So you shouldn't have to worry about them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, as a FW user myself, BRING ALL THE FOREGWORLD!
There can never be enough FW.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why I wouldn't play against forgeworld unless I had some:

Ah yes, the classic "BUT OMG SUPERHEAVIES" response. Perhaps before making blanket rules about what you will and will not play against you should read the rules in question, and notice that those units are Apocalypse-only, and entirely different from the standard 40k units FW produces?

But its the idea... that they have access to those beasts...

I just want to faint at the idea of my friend having them.

Of course. More different types of units to slaughter!

 Peregrine wrote:


Key point: some missions. To use those options you have to agree with your opponent in advance to play one of those special missions instead of one of the standard core rulebook missions. This is NOT true of FW rules, which are part of standard 40k just like you don't have to make special agreements to take a flamer on your tactical squad instead of a plasma gun.

Where does it say that a special agreement over and above the one you'd need for Flamers or FW units is needed?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


Key point: some missions. To use those options you have to agree with your opponent in advance to play one of those special missions instead of one of the standard core rulebook missions. This is NOT true of FW rules, which are part of standard 40k just like you don't have to make special agreements to take a flamer on your tactical squad instead of a plasma gun.

Where does it say that a special agreement over and above the one you'd need for Flamers or FW units is needed?

Because the section you quoted is "Non-Standard missions" that is simple enough for you to understand, flamers and officially added 40k units are designed to be within the FoC, within an official game and marked as such.

But its the idea... that they have access to those beasts...

I just want to faint at the idea of my friend having them.

Not really, those are apocalypse units, which are designed purely for the Apoc scenario.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Where does it say that a special agreement over and above the one you'd need for Flamers or FW units is needed?

It's common sense. If we're going to play a Planetstrike mission (the only place where you can use the special Planetstrike FOC) then we both have to agree to play a Planetstrike mission. It's impossible for you to play a Planetstrike mission while I play 40k, so we have to agree to do one or the other. GW doesn't have to make this explicit because there's no way to violate the unwritten "special agreement" rule.

FW units, on the other hand, are just another unit choice in standard 40k.

Legion of Flame wrote:
But its the idea... that they have access to those beasts...

I just want to faint at the idea of my friend having them.

No it isn't. The context here is standard 40k units, not Apocalypse units. Those "scary" Apocalypse units are not allowed in standard 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:


It's common sense. If we're going to play a Planetstrike mission (the only place where you can use the special Planetstrike FOC) then we both have to agree to play a Planetstrike mission..

The same common sense would seem to apply to the mutual agreement to play with Forge World rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Because the section you quoted is "Non-Standard missions" that is simple enough for you to understand, flamers and officially added 40k units are designed to be within the FoC, within an official game and marked as such.

Why are non-standard missions / FoC added to 40K "outside" the official game but Forge World units and rules added to 40K "inside" the official game? Strikes me as a fairly arbitrary line to draw.

 Zweischneid wrote:
The same common sense would seem to apply to the mutual agreement to play with Forge World rules.

No it doesn't because FW rules are explicitly part of standard 40k.

Why are non-standard missions / FoC added to 40K "outside" the official game but Forge World units and rules added to 40K "inside" the official game? Strikes me as a fairly arbitrary line to draw.

Because that's what "standard" means.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
The same common sense would seem to apply to the mutual agreement to play with Forge World rules.

No it doesn't because FW rules are explicitly part of standard 40k.

Why are non-standard missions / FoC added to 40K "outside" the official game but Forge World units and rules added to 40K "inside" the official game? Strikes me as a fairly arbitrary line to draw.

Because that's what "standard" means.

Does it? Oxford dictionary defines "non-standard" as

adjective
not average or usual:

No mention of "unofficial". And Forge World rules are clearly neither "average" nor "usual" either.

 Zweischneid wrote:
No mention of "unofficial". And Forge World rules are clearly neither "average" nor "usual" either.

Your opinion is irrelevant. GW has explicitly stated that FW rules are part of standard 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
No mention of "unofficial". And Forge World rules are clearly neither "average" nor "usual" either.

Your opinion is irrelevant. GW has explicitly stated that FW rules are part of standard 40k.

Where?

You keep harping on about this "standard" as the ultimate benchmark that supposedly overrides common sense and courtesy, but I find no reference to it in Forge World, nor a definite definition of it in the 40K Rulebook.

Indeed, the way Forge World uses the term in their "stamp entry", it seems (to me) to describe standard sized games in differentiation to Apocalypse games. It's a classification of size.

They also advise fairly explicitly that "owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

 Zweischneid wrote:
Where?

Every FW book published in the past 2-3 years.

You keep harping on about this "standard" as the ultimate benchmark that supposedly overrides common sense and courtesy, but I find no reference to it in Forge World, nor a definite definition of it in the 40K Rulebook.

Oh FFS, is it really that complicated? "Standard 40k" is the basic core game of 40k with no expansions. Armies chosen from the standard army lists according to the core rulebook FOC/composition rules/etc, missions from the core rulebook table, etc. This is just ridiculous nitpicking.

Indeed, the way Forge World uses the term in their "stamp entry", it seems (to me) to describe standard sized games in differentiation to Apocalypse games. It's a classification of size.

No, it's about more than just size because it's part of the same sentence stating that the rules are official. You just don't like the consequences of that statement.

They also advise fairly explicitly that "owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

1) This is different from the similar statement about Apocalypse units where it states that you MUST get special permission to use them in a standard 40k game. It's a statement about being polite and not surprising your opponent, not a rule.

2) This is also true about every other rule GW publishes. Before you play a game with your orks you should make sure that your opponent is happy to play against orks, because you can't force them to play against orks if they don't want to. FW just makes it explicit because some people aren't familiar with the rules and able to form opinions about what they want to play against, while most players are familiar with orks and know whether or not they want to face them.

They also advise fairly explicitly that "owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

I've never played a Black Templar list, the same principle would apply, I'd show them the list, the models rules, just as they would if I don't know what X does.

No mention of "unofficial". And Forge World rules are clearly neither "average" nor "usual" either.

Neither are SoB to most people, but they are clearly official.

Course this is just going around needlessly at this point.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Course this is just going around needlessly at this point.

Pretty much.

People who read the rules and make a sincere effort to understand them see the obvious, that FW rules are official and part of normal 40k but, like every part of the game, you can choose to add house rules that remove them if that's how you want to play the game.

People who can't stand the thought of having to admit that their anti-FW policy is a house rule (stubborn pride I guess?) grasp desperately for any slight ambiguity in wording that might "prove" that a GW product that says "this is official" is somehow not official.

The two groups will never agree, and the only point in posting in these threads is to counter the myth that the rules say something that they don't.

 Zweischneid wrote:

They also advise fairly explicitly that "owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

Isn't this the case with everything ever?

Like...Make sure someone is okay with a high-five before you high five them. Make sure someone isn't allergic to peanuts before throwing peanuts at them. Make sure they are using 1850 points in an 1850 point game.

That's not a rule. That's an urging of courtesy.

And FW's books for the past 2-3 years have been endorsed by GW. It seems like your information is really out of date, and as such; your insistent arguing sounds ridiculous.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Isn't this the case with everything ever?

Exactly.

Which is why I find it so perplexing that people try to "legislate" their way around it with such effort with respect to Forge World units. It seems to me like an excruciatingly stupid way to start off a "fun" afternoon/evening/whatever of 40K. But maybe I am just wired the wrong way there.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Isn't this the case with everything ever?

Exactly.

Which is why I find it so perplexing that people try to "legislate" their way around it with such effort with respect to Forge World units. It seems to me like an excruciatingly stupid way to start off a "fun" afternoon/evening/whatever of 40K. But maybe I am just wired the wrong way there.

Simple enough

"Oh hey is that a Forgeworld model"
"Yes"
"Okay cool, I'll play someone else"

Same as

"Oh hey are you running Black Templar?"
"Yes"
"Okay cool, I'll play someone else"

The problem is your trying to legislate it as being "Unofficial", while it is official. Nobody is denying you your freedom of choice to not play Forgeworld, you just havn't made an actual case against it being unofficial.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
you just havn't made an actual case against it being unofficial.

And I wasn't trying.

I was making a case against the assumption that a people with at least minimal social skills wouldn't have the "common sense" (to use Peregrine's phrase) to give their opponent a heads-up, ideally a day or so in advance, if they intend to bring Forge World rules.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
you just havn't made an actual case against it being unofficial.

And I wasn't trying.

I was making a case against the assumption that a people with at least minimal social skills wouldn't have the "common sense" (to use Peregrine's phrase) to give their opponent a heads-up, ideally a day or so in advance, if they intend to bring Forge World rules.

I'm not sure why I would need to give a days heads up in order to play a normal pickup game. Not like we pre-plan every game we play if we're just playing around, we do pre-plan if we're going to be setting up Planetstrike or City of Death though, due to the necessity of all the changes to the standard game.

Only FW models I've played against (with FW rules) was the Cestus Assault Ram. Two of them. With a Deathwing list.. That was painful.

I got to say, the FW rules I've seen in action does not seem very balanced, but hey, it's all good fun, innit?

It kind of depends on which FW units you end of playing against. I think a lot of them are underpowered if anything... but they're kind of wacky and can really add character to the game. Oftentimes, those aren't the units people field... rather they go for the ones that are broken in the overpowered direction, which of course lends itself to many people and TO's not allowing IA rules in their tournaments. Of course the same could be said for a lot of main-stream GW units as well.

The best argument I've heard against using IA units, is that here in the 'States the vast majority of people... due to cost and rarity... don't have access to the IA units or more specifically, to the rules for them. Thus allowing them puts some people at an unfair disadvantage because they can't properly prepare for them like they could a unit who's rules were more readily available (due to cost and distribution). I think that's a legitimate point, especially for competitive tournament gaming.

That being said... Adepticon allows IA units in it's team tournament and the world has not ended... nor have I heard other participants complaining about it. Most of my team this year will be fielding some kind of IA unit, though for us they're very fluffy choices and not particularly powerful. (not bad choices... but nothing you'd see in a real "power list")

 Zweischneid wrote:
I was making a case against the assumption that a people with at least minimal social skills wouldn't have the "common sense" (to use Peregrine's phrase) to give their opponent a heads-up, ideally a day or so in advance, if they intend to bring Forge World rules.

Do you also demand a warning a day in advance if your opponent is playing orks? If not, why not, given that both are equally official and part of standard 40k?

Also, the thought of demanding days of advance warning is pretty absurd in my experience, since you don't know who you're playing until you show up at 40k night at the local store and see who is there. Do you only play specially arranged games against specific opponents?

 Peregrine wrote:
Do you only play specially arranged games against specific opponents?

For games that use supplements like (the official) Spearhead or Forge World books, yes.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Do you only play specially arranged games against specific opponents?

For games that use supplements like (the official) Spearhead or Forge World books, yes.

Please stop saying that the two are the same. Spearhead is a separate expansion that is not compatible with standard 40k, therefore it's reasonable to expect advance notice and special arrangements so that both players can comply with the special rules that Spearhead adds to the game. FW rules are part of standard 40k and do not require any special arrangements beyond whatever is required to play against orks instead of space marines.

Also, do you demand similar advance notice and special arrangements before you'll play against people who are using SoB or any of the other WD additions?

 Peregrine wrote:


Please stop saying that the two are the same. Spearhead is a separate expansion that is not compatible with standard 40k, therefore it's reasonable to expect advance notice and special arrangements so that both players can comply with the special rules that Spearhead adds to the game. FW rules are part of standard 40k and do not require any special arrangements beyond whatever is required to play against orks instead of space marines.

We've been over this. I see no mention in either Spearhead or Forge World that would support the idea that one would be treated differently than the other. They are both official additions to Warhammer 40K. There are no more or less "special arrangements" for either player for either supplement. Why would you require an extra advance notice to go up against a Spearhead formation of Eldar Falcons but not against a formation of IG Leman Russ? Doesn't make sense, unless you say you'd need an extra advance notice for any and all supplements, not selectively those you don't like but not those you do like.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


Please stop saying that the two are the same. Spearhead is a separate expansion that is not compatible with standard 40k, therefore it's reasonable to expect advance notice and special arrangements so that both players can comply with the special rules that Spearhead adds to the game. FW rules are part of standard 40k and do not require any special arrangements beyond whatever is required to play against orks instead of space marines.

We've been over this. I see no mention in either Spearhead or Forge World that would support the idea that one would be treated differently than the other. They are both official additions to Warhammer 40K. There are no more or less "special arrangements" for either player for either supplement. Why would you require an extra advance notice to go up against a Spearhead formation of Eldar Falcons but not against a formation of IG Leman Russ? Doesn't make sense, unless you say you'd need an extra advance notice for any and all supplements, not selectively those you don't like but not those you do like.

Well that depends, can you tell me an official warhammer 40k formation that is stamped that way, and not for apocalypse or spearhead?

 Zweischneid wrote:
We've been over this. I see no mention in either Spearhead or Forge World that would support the idea that one would be treated differently than the other. They are both official additions to Warhammer 40K.

You're right, we've been over this. FW books explicitly state that the rules are for standard 40k. Spearhead does not. The fact that you refuse to admit that this difference exist does not make it go away.

Why would you require an extra advance notice to go up against a Spearhead formation of Eldar Falcons but not against a formation of IG Leman Russ?

Because the only way you can legally take a Spearhead formation of Falcons is if we're playing one of the special Spearhead missions, in which case MY FOC is changed as well, my vehicles gain special rules, etc. There is no way to simply put that formation of Falcons into a standard game of 40k like you were choosing between Falcons and Fire Prisms.

Doesn't make sense, unless you say you'd need an extra advance notice for any and all supplements, not selectively those you don't like but not those you do like.

I require advance notice for all alternate mission/game types that require both players to bring special armies and comply with special rules, since it is impossible for me to play those missions without advance notice that I need to bring an army that works under different rules.

I do not require advance notice for choosing different units from the ones available in standard 40k, whether they are printed in a FW book, a codex, or in WD.

It has nothing to do with selective like or dislike and everything to do with what is and isn't part of standard 40k.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Well that depends, can you tell me an official warhammer 40k formation that is stamped that way, and not for apocalypse or spearhead?

No official GW-studio publication is "stamped". Because unless products published by the actual same company, rather than a different one owned by the same holding, they are all part of the game by default. Codex Orks isn't "stamped" either as far as I am aware.

Is it those funny little stamps you've been going on all along? That's where you draw your argument from?


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 Peregrine wrote:

You're right, we've been over this. FW books explicitly state that the rules are for standard 40k. Spearhead does not. The fact that you refuse to admit that this difference exist does not make it go away.

As noted, your definition of "standard" 40K appears to be one conveniently made up by you to support your preferences. Show me a definition of "standard" 40K (and of what is the extra prep "demanded" of non-standard 40K) and the thing would be settled.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Because unless products published by the actual same company, rather than a different one owned by the same holding, they are all part of the game by default.

This is entirely wrong. FW is a specific set of products sold by GW under a certain brand name, just like your models are sold under the Citadel brand name, you get new rules printed in White Dwarf magazine, etc. This "separation" between GW and FW is nothing more than a myth, and when FW prints a statement saying "this is official and part of standard 40k" it is the final word on the subject until GW prints a conflicting statement elsewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
As noted, your definition of "standard" 40K appears to be one conveniently made up by you to support your preferences. Show me a definition of "standard" 40K and the thing would be settled.

No, my definition of standard 40k is the one GW has provided: core rulebook, codices, and WD/FW units that are published as additions to standard 40k. You can complain all you like but GW has made it absolutely clear that FW rules are part of the standard game.

 Peregrine wrote:


I require advance notice for all alternate mission/game types that require both players to bring special armies and comply with special rules, since it is impossible for me to play those missions without advance notice that I need to bring an army that works under different rules.

Your regular army (including Forge World units if you choose to) works just fine in playing Spearhead or Planetstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


No, my definition of standard 40k is the one GW has provided: core rulebook, codices, and WD/FW units that are published as additions to standard 40k. You can complain all you like but GW has made it absolutely clear that FW rules are part of the standard game.

Just as they made it absolutely clear that this doesn't relief you of the obligation to "make sure your opponent is comfortable with you using FW units".

 Zweischneid wrote:
Your regular army (including Forge World units if you choose to) works just fine in playing Spearhead or Planetstrike.

No it doesn't. The FOC is different, alternate rules apply to my army (for example, in Planetstrike I have to deep strike everything), I have to choose stratagems, etc. I might technically be able to use the same models, but it's absolutely ridiculous to claim that playing Planetstrike doesn't mean changing your army to function under the Planetstrike rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Just as they made it absolutely clear that this doesn't relief you of the obligation to "make sure your opponent is comfortable with you using FW units".

Just like it doesn't remove the obligation to make sure that your opponent is comfortable with you using orks.

See the little warhammer 40000 stamp in blue on the codex entry.

this was placed to avoid this form of debate, and to designate what was "legal" for what variation of the base game.



Now these are stamped for Apoclypse games..so they may only be used in those versions of the base game.

Planetstrike and Spearhead, modify the base game with stratagems and formation rules that entail changes from the base game, and changes that both players need be aware of, both for point expenditure and modification of unit abilities.

Forgeworld has gone to lengths with GW to make it abundantly clear what units are suitable for what version of the base 40k game.

Now of course you are always free to play or not to play against anyone at anytime, but FW has been made ( on a unit by unit basis ) legal in standard 40k play, and the argument that not everyone has acess to the rules , can be said for every army,I do not set every new codexes entries to memory nor buy every one that comes out, but If I use a said unit I will be more than happy to produce the official and most current rules for said unit.

(note both examples above are from FW own site.)

With respect soo'vah'cha the stamps for me mean very little, it realy comes down to it that forge world is additional content that I don't want to play with

But if someone is nice and friendly and goes" hey I got dis,dis and dis, that's all cool right?" I will be happy to compromise and play with them.
I can only hope they will play with me at sometime without them.

If someone wants to try and emotionally blackmail me into it, like a lot of for arguments seem to get to.
My mood would sour rather quickly.

Also on a off note, I haven't been able to buy anything off forgeworld :0 so I at this time realy cant get ahold of the rules.

And the nearest GW to me is a 800$ flight or a 14 hour drive, so if they have them, umm great !

Just as they made it absolutely clear that this doesn't relief you of the obligation to "make sure your opponent is comfortable with you using FW units".

They see it, I provide rules, that's how I make people comfortable if they dislike it I can try another list of mine, so long as they ask politely.

Course if they put up a fuss, I might just decline the game anyways since they aren't asking like a normal person and more trying to blackmail me with dubious legality, likely to be a TFG player.

If someone asked like a normal person if I can alter my list a little rather than attempt to say "Those aren't legal, and these dubious claims I'm making means you gotta put them away and play by my house rulings without a say in the matter.".

I am accommodating towards a person who acts like..well, a nice person.

Your regular army (including Forge World units if you choose to) works just fine in playing Spearhead or Planetstrike.

So you agree they are non-standard expansion games, glad you finally agree.

No official GW-studio publication is "stamped". Because unless products published by the actual same company, rather than a different one owned by the same holding, they are all part of the game by default. Codex Orks isn't "stamped" either as far as I am aware.

Oh they make apocalypse as well, so they make sure they differentiate between the non-standard game units and the standard game units they provide.

As noted, your definition of "standard" 40K appears to be one conveniently made up by you to support your preferences. Show me a definition of "standard" 40K (and of what is the extra prep "demanded" of non-standard 40K) and the thing would be settled.

Listed within the rulebook rules.

I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

The LA battle bunker is...special. People need to have their rules available for their opponent to read before a game, whether it's FW units or codex, ask to see the rules before the game, if they don't/can't provide them, then either way, codex or FW, there's an issue.

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

My condolances on those experiences, but what you are dealing with there is not a problem with FW units so much as it is a "Player" issue, I always bring my codex and any pertaining books along with any units I will field, and do full disclosure before a game, and give my opponent as much time as they like to read up on anything I plan of deloying.

Your experiences could easily be repeated by anyone playing against any unit that thier opponent "springs " on them, especially ones they are concealing in a case or somesuch.

Just politely but firmly ask to see the codex or rule entry for any unit you are not familiar with, and if they dont have it with them, request it be used as a unit that they do have the proper rules for, the examples you have stated are poor sports that are not interested in a good game.

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

Uh. Isn't this the case whenever you play against anything new?

Don't tell me you weren't surprised the first time Marbo popped up and boned you.

FW stuff just adds new surprises. If you're a seasoned vet that hasn't been surprised by a unit in ages, this should be refreshing. If you're newer, then it shouldn't matter.

I've been more surprised playing against SoB lately than ever have been against FW stuff.

If they are 40k Approved FW why wouldn't you?

Okay so my opinion on the Planetstrike/Spearhead versus FW thing.

Both add content to "Base" 40k. No they aren't the same. Planetstrike changes the FOC, so we would need to pre-arrange the game so I can make a Planetstrike FOC army. FW doesn't change the FOC, so no real need to pre-arrange the game. If you want to, thats fine! But I see no need to, as long as they guy has the book on him so I can spend a few minutes looking at the rules. If I think they are okay, I will agree to play. If not, then we simply find new opponents. Boom. Situation over. We both end up enjoying a game, if it's against each other or someone else.


And yes, to me FW are just a part of 40k as any other unit. Since I play with a group of people who have more real-war influence, I see that as okay. We don't like to pre-arrange our armies for the game day, or tell each other what units we have (FW or not. We bring our codexes/books). After all (to us) real commanders don't openly meet to discuss what they will be bringing to the next battle (we like to figure out by spying on each other hahahahaha...)

Maby this should of been a pole

Brother maximus wrote:
Maby this should of been a pole

Oh, I think people are inserting their pole into this quite enough already.

My only issues would be

1. Badly scratched built models using fw rules (id let some orky stuff pass if it was really good and very well done fully painted models.)

2. And not actually owning the book to use said rules

Otherwise you spent the money on generally awesome models; you should have every right to use it and i would play you

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
you just havn't made an actual case against it being unofficial.

And I wasn't trying.

I was making a case against the assumption that a people with at least minimal social skills wouldn't have the "common sense" (to use Peregrine's phrase) to give their opponent a heads-up, ideally a day or so in advance, if they intend to bring Forge World rules.

IF you would also inform your opponent that you'll be using a codex, then it would be logically consistent to inform your opponent that you'll be using FW units.

Personally, I have never once bothered to say "I will be using the Grey Knights codex, is that ok?" however I will always ask "Have you played against this unit before?" to gauge their familiarity with the abilities and special rules. And I would extend the same courtesy for FW units. There's no difference between them and codex units, so I'm not going to treat them differently and would not expect my opponents to react differently. I'll ask if you've played against it before, and explain the rules and stats before the game, but I'm not going to be warning people in advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
With respect soo'vah'cha the stamps for me mean very little, it realy comes down to it that forge world is additional content that I don't want to play with

But how is that different to thinking the Eldar Codex is just 'additional content' that you don't want to play with?

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:


See the little warhammer 40000 stamp in blue on the codex entry.

this was placed to avoid this form of debate, and to designate what was "legal" for what variation of the base game.

Now these are stamped for Apoclypse games..so they may only be used in those versions of the base game.

Planetstrike and Spearhead, modify the base game with stratagems and formation rules that entail changes from the base game, and changes that both players need be aware of, both for point expenditure and modification of unit abilities.

Forgeworld has gone to lengths with GW to make it abundantly clear what units are suitable for what version of the base 40k game.

Now of course you are always free to play or not to play against anyone at anytime, but FW has been made ( on a unit by unit basis ) legal in standard 40k play, and the argument that not everyone has acess to the rules , can be said for every army,I do not set every new codexes entries to memory nor buy every one that comes out, but If I use a said unit I will be more than happy to produce the official and most current rules for said unit.

(note both examples above are from FW own site.)

Perfect post, more eloquently said than what I have been trying.
I would like to add, logically speaking if ALL FW units are equal and fair, FW wouldn't need to be separated into the different category of said "stamps".
I think way too many people are stuck over "you need agreement to play a game" part.
You need agreement for everything, that part is redundant in this issue. What people are after is, clear set guidelines, for a supposed fair game, and its supplements.

Clear like in sports people set different weight class, separated like genders in certain olympics sports.
One may argue "well this lighter class person performed better than this one in another class".
Well yes every light have their variation in their spectrum, yet its the same reason why you never see a real match on tv of a woman vs man boxing match.
Could they agree to it? Sure...
Would it be possible for woman to win? sure... if she was a real pro while the man was a random hobo.
Would there be a purpose, a competitiveness? not really.... physically designed differently.

Same as apoc units vs normal 40k units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
With respect soo'vah'cha the stamps for me mean very little, it realy comes down to it that forge world is additional content that I don't want to play with

Quote from kaldor.
But how is that different to thinking the Eldar Codex is just 'additional content' that you don't want to play with?

Well I have to play with FW all the time, my army's is 100% FW, so that goes out of the window.

Apple fox wrote:
You don't have to play with forge world stuff all the time, and if you don't give the time to people who don't want to use it, but expect them to play with it. Well I think the argument has realy been lost.

You don't have to play with orks all the time, and if you don't give the time to people who don't want to use orks, but expect them to play with orks. Well I think the argument has really been lost.

And yes, I do have to play with FW stuff all the time, unless you want to buy me an entire second army and then build/paint it to match my current models.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well I have to play with FW all the time, my army's is 100% FW, so that goes out of the window.

well if you are nice about it I would have no issue there.

This is realy the reason GW realy should re organize how they do things, splitting the playerbase in such a way can't be healthy for the game ;(

hmm
The reasons I dislike the idea of forge world is that I like the restrictions in codexs, a fair and even(as it can be) pool of units within a army.
It's what I am interested in playing with.
Realy none of this is an argument it's just some of my opinion on why I don't like it.
Also I have nothing agenst the models used in army's ;D
And well as I said I can't even buy the books to see what my opinion on the units in the books are.

The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

 Bobthehero wrote:
The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

they are 0,o what are they ? I don't even know what army it is. And as I said. If you where nice about it I would play with you.

I wasn't aware of any lists up and legal on the net.

The army you use is death corps of krig ? I looked at your piccys.

I've refused to play against FW armies before.

It's usually because I really don't like the player and his attitude of "it's completely legal, why don't you want to play against it, pussy?" though.

Because I've played against them before, and it just wasn't worth the aggro of their constant disputing of rules, flexibility with their own readings, and generally ignoring Wil Wheaton's rule (Rule #1. Don't be a d*ck).

Apple fox wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

they are 0,o what are they ? I don't even know what army it is. And as I said. If you where nice about it I would play with you.

I wasn't aware of any lists up and legal on the net.

The army you use is death corps of krig ? I looked at your piccys.

Yup, http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf this + the artillery update pdf on FW website + the last page of the IG codex with all the weapon stats.

 Bobthehero wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

they are 0,o what are they ? I don't even know what army it is. And as I said. If you where nice about it I would play with you.

I wasn't aware of any lists up and legal on the net.

The army you use is death corps of krig ? I looked at your piccys.

Yup, http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf this + the artillery update pdf on FW website + the last page of the IG codex with all the weapon stats.

I wasn't aware any full army got a whole online army list, even sisters don't hehe.

But realy, if you are nice and not cheeky like some others. I would play ;D and I sure I would have fun. But I would still be weary of it and would probably be far less keen to play without looking it over.
It's the assumed risk of a full forgeworld army I guess.

Apple fox wrote:
if you are nice and not cheeky like some others. I would play

What I don't like (and I'm not sure it was intentional) is the implication that ONLY people using a codex have to be nice.

That's not fair or logical.

Everyone should be held to the same standard, and if you're going to refuse to play someone with FW units because they act a certain way, then you should refuse to play people with regular armies if they act the same way.

There is no difference between FW units, and regular units. No difference.

 Kaldor wrote:
There is no difference between FW units, and regular units. No difference.

Except you have to pay extra for the IA books, and then pay even more extra for the FW models. And that really ticks me off the worst. How is it fair that some armies have viable flyers in their Codex (and GW models) when others have to buy IA and overpriced FW models if they want any? The Orks and Space Marines got flyers in a WD but you might not even find that issue anymore.

Necrons have the fliers in their codex and the GW kit costs 36€. So do the Ork/SM flyers. Valkyrie kit is 52€, Stormraven 65€. If I want a flyer for my SoB I'll have to shell out ~31€ for IA Aeronautica and ~111€ per Avenger Strike Fighter. Yay...

And the funny issue of the Codex usually saying it's all you need to play Army X. The Forgeworld units should be included in the Errata then, shouldn't they?

 Kaldor wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
if you are nice and not cheeky like some others. I would play

What I don't like (and I'm not sure it was intentional) is the implication that ONLY people using a codex have to be nice.

That's not fair or logical.

Everyone should be held to the same standard, and if you're going to refuse to play someone with FW units because they act a certain way, then you should refuse to play people with regular armies if they act the same way.

There is no difference between FW units, and regular units. No difference.

Oh yes, being nice always is best ;D I think for people with Forgeworld it's best to be mindful that it's a extra thing for conflict to form.
informing your opponent befor everything is setup and army's are being deployed, and being friendly about your want to using the forge world rules goes a long way.
I just want to also play without it, so I happy to play but want bit extra warning. And well hope when possible have players play without also.

Also I struggle with English so I struggle a lot trying to get my opinion across ;(

Apple fox wrote:

Oh yes, being nice always is best ;D I think for people with Forgeworld it's best to be mindful that it's a extra thing for conflict to form.
informing your opponent befor everything is setup and army's are being deployed, and being friendly about your want to using the forge world rules goes a long way.
I just want to also play without it, so I happy to play but want bit extra warning. And well hope when possible have players play without also.

Also I struggle with English so I struggle a lot trying to get my opinion across ;(

You're doing pretty well for a non-native English speaker.

You say "it's an extra thing for conflict to form". I say it shouldn't be. It should be exactly the same as playing against a regular codex.

And where you say "I just want to also play without it" I want to ask, why? Why FW units, but not codex units?

I'd be fine if I was playing against things such as different space marines (the different marks) the different terminators. Basically, if it is a unit that is in a codex, I''d play against it anytime. Providing that it adheres to normal 40k rules.

If I was playing a Horus Heresy army though, I would want to clarify things.

It really depends how flexible and how generous you are.

If I get educated with the rules for them, like just a quick overview (or let me see the book), that would be completely fine, I would love to play against a beautiful army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That sentence has bad grammar, I should know better.

 Kaldor wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Oh yes, being nice always is best ;D I think for people with Forgeworld it's best to be mindful that it's a extra thing for conflict to form.
informing your opponent befor everything is setup and army's are being deployed, and being friendly about your want to using the forge world rules goes a long way.
I just want to also play without it, so I happy to play but want bit extra warning. And well hope when possible have players play without also.

Also I struggle with English so I struggle a lot trying to get my opinion across ;(

You're doing pretty well for a non-native English speaker.

You say "it's an extra thing for conflict to form". I say it shouldn't be. It should be exactly the same as playing against a regular codex.

And where you say "I just want to also play without it" I want to ask, why? Why FW units, but not codex units?

Hmm, that hard to explain.

I like to play with the codexs as they are intended, and don't want to have the extra units changing the way they play.
Hmm, that's the gist of it but not realy what I want to say >.<
Looking at the krig list I would be happy to play it, as it has restrictions based on ballence to the list and isn't just all the forge world models for IG they haved added.

Maybe another way is I don't want to play with army's having vast outnumbered choices to others( the codexs not perfect at that eather to start with) so maybe I will change it from a dislike to forgeworld , to more a dislike to how it is used.
I want to see the cool models but I don't want to turn up to a game agenst space marines, and suddenly find I'm facing a force full of stuff I have to change all my thaghts for.
This can also come back to, if people willing to inform me of the details I normaly open to play and sadly experiences have sour this fealing over the years.

Does that make sence ;0

Of corse I am open to my opinion changing on all off this, but for now I will still prefer agenst it. I had some more to add to this paragraph but I opting to not post it ;( As I not willing to share to the open thread, so that's my best thaghts on it ;D

Apple fox wrote:
I like to play with the codexs as they are intended, and don't want to have the extra units changing the way they play.
Hmm, that's the gist of it but not realy what I want to say

I can understand that, but wouldn't it be easier to just take an open view? I mean, what about units added by White Dwarf, or even just units added with a new codex?

It's not like the codexes are evenly balanced, either. Necron flier spam is one of the most broken abusive lists I've ever seen, and I play Grey Knights!

I want to see the cool models but I don't want to turn up to a game agenst space marines, and suddenly find I'm facing a force full of stuff I have to change all my thaghts for.
This can also come back to, if people willing to inform me of the details I normaly open to play and sadly experiences have sour this fealing over the years.

Does that make sence ;0

Yeah, that kinda makes sense but really it's no different to playing an army you've never played before. Even if it's just because it's a new codex. A player should always be willing to explain new units and new rules that their opponent may not be familiar with, but at the same time I wouldn't expect any player to have to ask if it's ok to use official rules for a standard game, whether that's using rules from White Dwarf, a new codex that I haven't played against before or if it's Forge World rules.

I mean, if you got a new codex for your army, would you actually ask your opponent if it was ok to use the new codex? Or would you just offer to explain everything for them as you went through the game?

It really depends on the player and what they bring.

If its a good friend who wanted to pick up the odd model, or something like tetras to make his tau more competitive, then I am fine.

The issue for me is when a player tells me that forgeworld is balanced etc etc, nags me into playing them, and then puts down the most broken units forgeworld has and spams them. Thats when I hate the use of forgeworld.

For the odd, this model is really cool can I use it, then thats great

 Kaldor wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I like to play with the codexs as they are intended, and don't want to have the extra units changing the way they play.
Hmm, that's the gist of it but not realy what I want to say

I can understand that, but wouldn't it be easier to just take an open view? I mean, what about units added by White Dwarf, or even just units added with a new codex?

It's not like the codexes are evenly balanced, either. Necron flier spam is one of the most broken abusive lists I've ever seen, and I play Grey Knights!

I want to see the cool models but I don't want to turn up to a game agenst space marines, and suddenly find I'm facing a force full of stuff I have to change all my thaghts for.
This can also come back to, if people willing to inform me of the details I normaly open to play and sadly experiences have sour this fealing over the years.

Does that make sence ;0

Yeah, that kinda makes sense but really it's no different to playing an army you've never played before. Even if it's just because it's a new codex. A player should always be willing to explain new units and new rules that their opponent may not be familiar with, but at the same time I wouldn't expect any player to have to ask if it's ok to use official rules for a standard game, whether that's using rules from White Dwarf, a new codex that I haven't played against before or if it's Forge World rules.

I mean, if you got a new codex for your army, would you actually ask your opponent if it was ok to use the new codex? Or would you just offer to explain everything for them as you went through the game?

Well I do keep it open, and try to accommodate I think white dwarf additions are few and far between and new units in a codex with the change are expected and ok and I do ask if what I am using is ok when I play.
And sadly yea GW ballence not as great ;(

as to other I may pm you the answer as its not something I want just put up.

 tuiman wrote:
The issue for me is when a player tells me that forgeworld is balanced etc etc, nags me into playing them, and then puts down the most broken units forgeworld has and spams them. Thats when I hate the use of forgeworld.

Do you feel the same way about people who spam the most broken codex units?

Yeah but in that case, I know what to expect.

I know next to nothing of any the rules or models forgeworld puts out, so when someone says forge world is balanced, I take there word for it, and plays things like the guard defense platforms, vultures, hades drill etc. I am quite shocked, but I guess I know what to expect next time.

You made your point, what I said was not specific to forgeworld but 40k in general, in that way.

I play so much for fun these days that I really have no problem

I participated in the grand opening tournament in Winston NC not long ago and was allowed to use a ForgeWorld Hazard Suit HQ in 3/3 games. He was 2 pts less than my Crisis suit commander, so swapping the list wasn't a big issue, and all of my opponents agreed to let me use the FW fellow. Consider the FW hate on the net I was surprised by how cool the people 'in person' were are the GW tourny.

GW have so far not produced fair rules, it's not been part of their design philosophy, though the new Chaos Space Marines rules actually are refreshing. By the same token, though, the latest contribution to Daemons outright falsifies it, however.

It's perfectly fine to have the stance "there's some content I strongly disagree with and won't play". The argument earlier in this thread that FW has or has not regular 40k content is silly, though.

Personally I'll play anyone with FW models or armies in a pick up game, with one or possibly two exceptions. What I won't play with a stranger is:
Dreadnought insta-assault drop pod (FW)
Necron codex (GW)
Daemon update (WD)
With friends it's different. I'll respect their desire to test new things and I expect them to respect my desire to broaden my gaming experience. Even if it means getting hopelessly stomped to oblivion on turn one against daemons and having the rest of the game one long drawn out torture to defeat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jstncloud wrote:
I participated in the grand opening tournament in Winston NC not long ago and was allowed to use a ForgeWorld Hazard Suit HQ in 3/3 games. He was 2 pts less than my Crisis suit commander, so swapping the list wasn't a big issue, and all of my opponents agreed to let me use the FW fellow. Consider the FW hate on the net I was surprised by how cool the people 'in person' were are the GW tourny.

In part, I think if you expand a codex that is perceived as being weak will be met with more respect than say... bringing Bran to a Space Wolf list.