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In my experience the proper Forge World army lists (Death Korps, Elysians, Corsairs, and Tyrant's Legion) fit reasonably well in normal 40k, they're not particularly broken or underpowered. I'd be perfectly fine with them in a random pick-up game at a GW store.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

That's fine, I'd feel bad for the Krieg PDF and all those fancy experimental rules on the Forgeworld and GW site, but I'm still fine with drawing from official codex. Thankfully I can still use my Decimator model as a counts-as Chaos Contemptor, which was added to the official codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't even see what would be bad about multiple dreadclaws, they aren't armed with anything substantial, playing hot potato transport with them is rather awkward and not as functional as it might otherwise look, and they're significantly more points than loyalist drop pods

And they take up a force org slot, can't take a weapon, and don't have Inertial Guidance like drop pods do.

 Brother SRM wrote:
If you're playing using Forgeworld rules as well, you'll just need to explain what does what as the game goes on, since most people haven't played extensively against armies out of Forgeworld books.

As I'm pretty much the only Eldar players in a 50 mile radius I already have to do this. I'd be good with playing against FW models. I'm considering buying some myself (once I finish play-testing Shining Spears again though.)

 Ovion wrote:
There's this stigma about Forgeworld models / units that I don't really understand, and I think it often stems from ignorance - people have been told (probably by long term players, or people continuing old stereotypes) that Forgeworld is this immensely overpower creation full of broken and dead puppies.

AFAIK there's only a couple really broken FW units, like the drop pods you can assault out of.

The rest is probably an unwillingness to play against units you know nothing about. The normal Codexes are in plentiful supply and you should be able to check a copy somewhere - your friend, your local game store and so on. IA books on the other hand are FW orders, and if a game store has them they're generally not keeping store copies for you to use. Add in that people often are too lazy to bring the FAQs for their own Codex or the BRB. Why should you trust them to have all the updates for their FW units?

Even the dread-assault pods aren't so bad anymore (in 5th they were disgusting). It's only dreads that can use them, they take a force org slot, the dreads face some risk using them, and with HP's in 6th ed, it's about the only way dread is going go actually get stuck in against a half-competent opponent.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

That's fine, I'd feel bad for the Krieg PDF and all those fancy experimental rules on the Forgeworld and GW site, but I'm still fine with drawing from official codex. Thankfully I can still use my Decimator model as a counts-as Chaos Contemptor, which was added to the official codex.

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
But Spearhead and Planetstrike are different rulesets / expansions, with their own crazy additional rules (And some Apoc rules if I remember rightly?).

As are the Imperial Armour books (see lower right-hand corner)

Spoiler:

Except this is an outdated stance that no longer applies.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

Sure you can, just make sure to tell me we are playing with the Spearhead rules or the Planetstrike rulebook so I can prepare beforehand.

Sure will, though please extend the same cutesy and tell me we are playing with Forge World rules so I can prepare beforehand.

I'd be glad to tell you what rules my models have, same courtesy as if you'd tell me if I saw unfamiliar units from your codex. But I will not let you list tailor to my list by showing you it beforehand, I consider it a bit unfair you see.

Well, than that is how we'll also handle my Spearhead formation I s'pose.

Sure, but once we game you'll have to remove it, otherwise you'll be cheating by adding an illegal formation into the FoC, as the spearhead FoC is not involved in an official game of 40k.

If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 codex, which are presumably the requirement you refer to when you talk of an "official" game of 40K as per the 6th Edition rulebook (p 108 of the mini-rulebook... I don't have a big one).

That's fine, I'd feel bad for the Krieg PDF and all those fancy experimental rules on the Forgeworld and GW site, but I'm still fine with drawing from official codex. Thankfully I can still use my Decimator model as a counts-as Chaos Contemptor, which was added to the official codex.

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

How about you look at it's page where it says it's a part of the Chaos Space Marine Codex?

 Zweischneid wrote:
Sure. As long as you don't mind me using a Spearhead formation or a Planetstrike FoC.

That's a stupid comparison. Spearhead and Planetstrike are expansions that require both players to bring non-standard lists, use non-standard strategies (for example, all their units have to deep strike), and can not be played by only one player while the other plays standard 40k. Forgeworld rules are explicitly part of standard 40k, not an expansion. Using them is no different than using a standard 40k unit printed in the codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

IA:Apocalypse added it to the CSM codex.

Zweischneid wrote:

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

And which codex release does the book tell you to use, how do the rules define codex, etc?

These units exist within the Warhammer 40,000 universe like anything you'd find in any other GW book. They're designed, published, manufactured and distributed by GW to be used within the context of basic play (using standard FoC rules and standard rulebook missions and recommended points levels). If you're having a problem just because it's printed one place and not other, that's about as pedantic and petty as one can get.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


How about you look at it's page where it says it's a part of the Chaos Space Marine Codex?

Seems identical to the entry that says Spearhead or Planetstrike formations are alternatives FoC to be used with the various Codexes. They even included that in the small 6th Edition rulebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
If you're having a problem just because it's printed one place and not other, that's about as pedantic and petty as one can get.

I don't.

I am just reciprocating Zebio's logic for denying me my Spearhead formation. Using his logic, Forge World would be a no go.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Seems identical to the entry that says Spearhead or Planetstrike formations are alternatives FoC to be used with the various Codexes. They even included that in the small 6th Edition rulebook.

Except those are expansions and not part of standard 40k, so you need to play a special expansion game to use them. FW rules are part of standard 40k, and are played in standard games just like any other choice of unit from a codex or WD.

I am just reciprocating Zebio's logic for denying me my Spearhead formation. Using his logic, Forge World would be a no go.

Entirely wrong. Stop using obsolete rules that were replaced years ago.

I use Forge World *models* quite frequently and have never had a problem... quite to the contrary, most folks love to see them. As for using IA rules... I never "spring" them on anyone. I let them know well ahead of time that I'd like to use them and provide them with their own copy of the rules if they request it, so there are no surprises. Still... their choice with no pressure from me. Mostly though... I proxy FW models and normal codex units & never have an issue.

I would happily play vs. IA rules as long as I knew ahead of time what they were & they didn't seem horribly over-balancing (which most aren't).

I don't.

I am just reciprocating Zebio's logic for denying me my Spearhead formation. Using his logic, Forge World would be a no go.

Except you are using an unofficial FoC in an official game, while the codex units I'm using are simply added officially without need of any unofficial FoC style or required FoC change that is not done through a main codex that would facilitate it. Maybe if Dark Angels has a Spearhead formation added to it's FoC you can use it some game.

Funny. Cannot find the Contemptor in my Chaos Space Marines Codex. Sorry pal.

The official Imperial Apocalypse - Second edition codex adds it to the main chaos codex, no different than the nightspinner for Eldar.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Seems identical to the entry that says Spearhead or Planetstrike formations are alternatives FoC to be used with the various Codexes. They even included that in the small 6th Edition rulebook.

Except those are expansions and not part of standard 40k, so you need to play a special expansion game to use them. FW rules are part of standard 40k, and are played in standard games just like any other choice of unit from a codex or WD.

P. 109 of the mini rulebook states that variant, indeed "non-standard" FoC can be used. Either because you go over 2000 points or because you use formations from books like Spearhead.

Since my list which I bring to the game with Zebio includes a formation from the latter, that is what we'll do. I cannot find any sort of requirements or obligations that would force me to give Zebio any sort of "head-notice" of the kind as he asks for.

Though, of course, good manners would imply that I tell him a day or so earlier that I'll intend to bring Spearhead just as it would imply he tells me that he intends to bring Forge World.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Except you are using an unofficial FoC in an official game, while the codex units I'm using are simply added officially without need of any unofficial FoC style or required FoC change that is not done through a main codex that would facilitate it. Maybe if Dark Angels has a Spearhead formation added to it's FoC you can use it some game.

How is it "unofficial". Spearhead a regular GW product.

P. 109 of the mini rulebook states that variant, indeed "non-standard" FoC can be used. Either because you go over 2000 points or because you use formations from books like Spearhead.

I'm not sure where you are getting Non-Standard at, because the doubled FoC chart is indeed an official standard, as listed in the main rulebook on page 109. You may take an additional primary detachment. That is not a non-standard, it is a standard for 2000+ games, there is no additional variation. You may take an additional detachment.

How is it "unofficial". Spearhead a regular GW product.

Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

"Some missions, such as those presented in Planetstrike and other Warhammer 40.000 supplements, use different Force Organisation charts. Where that is the case, any alternations or substitutions will be explained there."

6th Edition Rulebook p. 110. (mini version).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

They don't alter the rules any more or less by adding different FoC slots than Forge World books do by adding different units to FoC slots.

I am not sure why one is "unofficial" to you but the other isn't? Seems a rather arbitrary distinction.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Because it contains non-standard rules that alter the official rules, simply enough if you used it in a normal game, you'd be cheating by attempting to take a non-standard FoC slot. No different from trying to take four contemptors below 2000, or 12 sternguard units in a 2000 game.

"Some missions, such as those presented in Planetstrike and other Warhammer 40.000 supplements, use different Force Organisation charts. Where that is the case, any alternations or substitutions will be explained there."

6th Edition Rulebook p. 110. (mini version).

Except under the main rulebook. They are listed under

Non-Standard Missions

Unofficial as they were, as well as being supplements, as is listed by the book itself.

They don't alter the rules any more or less by adding different FoC slots than Forge World books do by adding different units to FoC slots.

Because it's no different than White Dwarf adding new units or changes to the books. Simple enough no? Or do you consider those unofficial somehow?

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
In my limited experience, FW stuff (that actually makes it to the TT) is even less balanced than GW stuff proper.

You are wrong because Necron fliers.

 Zweischneid wrote:
If that is the benchmark, the same would apply for any and all miniatures and units that are not drawn from a Warhammer 40.000 [u]codex[/u

Ah, see, this is where your confusion is stemming from!

No, codexes are not the only source of official units. In fact, many other GW publications, notably White Dwarf and Forge World also contain official units for use in regular games of 40K! It's easy to tell which units these are, as their entries carry an 'official for use in 40K' stamp!

Glad I could help clear up the difference between something like an Apocalypse unit or a Spearhead formation, and regular units intended for use in 40K

 Zweischneid wrote:
"Some missions, such as those presented in Planetstrike and other Warhammer 40.000 supplements, use different Force Organisation charts. Where that is the case, any alternations or substitutions will be explained there."

Key point: some missions. To use those options you have to agree with your opponent in advance to play one of those special missions instead of one of the standard core rulebook missions. This is NOT true of FW rules, which are part of standard 40k just like you don't have to make special agreements to take a flamer on your tactical squad instead of a plasma gun.

Since we don't allow FW in tournaments here, don't really care to play against FW in a competitive battle, but I don't think I'd mind if someone put together a fun list and wanted to play.

That said, no one here uses FW, ever.

This is all I'm seeing from a certain user ATM.


FW is perfectly fine. Any of the flimsy excuses for disallowing it have disappeared due to allies, fortifications and fliers all being an integral part of 6th. I really do not get the need for someone to go through a FW list with a fine tooth comb, desperately trying to find something wrong with it so they can feel good about themselves to disallow it. The amount of FW units that are considered unbalanced is not even into double figures yet (IMO), out of the hundreds that they do.

Then there's the issue of access to the rules. You can either buy the books off the FW website (too expensive? That's your problem, not GW's, just like with the whole issue of the rules for the Storm Talon only being on the iPad version of the SM codex, unless you can track down a copy of the WD it was in) if you want to know every possible unit in 40k, or your opponent will possess a copy of them, if not then they're not using them; just like if they've not got their codex.

There are zero issues here, and anyone trying to make one is just making a storm in a teacup.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't even see what would be bad about multiple dreadclaws, they aren't armed with anything substantial, playing hot potato transport with them is rather awkward and not as functional as it might otherwise look, and they're significantly more points than loyalist drop pods. Artillery spam is a bit different since GW changed them from being AV10 "glance-it-kill-it" to "T7 W2 3+sv" fantasy style units, so they're a bit beefy, but generally as soon as you get into CC with them with *anything* they die.

A CSM drop pod army, though I would kill for it as a CSM player myself, radically changes the nature of the CSM codex. Apparently being godlike in CC, chaos must also be stranded on its own side of the field and is forced to have very little mobility in exchange. Dreadclaws, though seemingly a few points overpriced, would upset that balance en masse and turn a mediocre codex into a Ward-dex.

Artillery piece spam also radically alters the IG codex, basically giving a 40% discount to artillery pieces with little downside. Who moves their basilisks much anyways? Being allowed to spam those in lieu of their Codex IG version means you would have 5 big guns for every 3 you paid for. They're still AV10 in close combat, regadless of chassis or lack thereof.

For this, Imperial Armor stuff should be allowed, but in very limited (non-spammable) quantities to avoid upsetting GW's very cafefully considered *cough*bs*cough* balancing efforts with their primary codices.

A CSM drop pod army, though I would kill for it as a CSM player myself, radically changes the nature of the CSM codex. Apparently being godlike in CC, chaos must also be stranded on its own side of the field and is forced to have very little mobility in exchange. Dreadclaws, though seemingly a few points overpriced, would upset that balance en masse and turn a mediocre codex into a Ward-dex

I..Cannot tell if this is joking or being serious because this is quite laughable.

Artillery piece spam also radically alters the IG codex, basically giving a 40% discount to artillery pieces with little downside. Who moves their basilisks much anyways? Being allowed to spam those in lieu of their Codex IG version means you would have 5 big guns for every 3 you paid for. They're still AV10 in close combat, regadless of chassis or lack thereof.

I guess you are referring to to the Earthshaker Platform, which cuts all the trimming's except for the gun itself.

To be fair I'd never seen anyone take artillery of any sort, seeing some actual artillery would be nice, though sadly the weapon has not updated into 6th, which means it's only 45% cheaper because it does not need the Indirect firing option due to the change to the barrage rules.

PolecatEZ wrote:

A CSM drop pod army, though I would kill for it as a CSM player myself, radically changes the nature of the CSM codex. Apparently being godlike in CC, chaos must also be stranded on its own side of the field and is forced to have very little mobility in exchange. Dreadclaws, though seemingly a few points overpriced, would upset that balance en masse and turn a mediocre codex into a Ward-dex.

Hrm, methinks you're overstating that quite a bit. First, those pods don't even start to come in until turn 2, and it's not like you can charge out of them so the earliest you could even get into CC is turn 3, after the enemy had a chance to shoot you.

CSM's also really aren't "godlike" in CC. A few units are rather capable at it, but having an 85pt drop pod that has to come in from normal reserves, takes up an FoC slot, and doesn't have the DS safety of normal drop pods is hardly gamebreaking, I can't think of a situation where showing up with 3 (the max you can have) would be in any way abusive.

Artillery piece spam also radically alters the IG codex, basically giving a 40% discount to artillery pieces with little downside. Who moves their basilisks much anyways? Being allowed to spam those in lieu of their Codex IG version means you would have 5 big guns for every 3 you paid for. They're still AV10 in close combat, regadless of chassis or lack thereof.

They're only Ld7 and vulnerable to Ld tests, and only the WS3 S3 T3 I3 5+sv Ld7 crew are involved in any assaults. You get more guns if you're buying them in bulk, but they're notably easier to engage and can't reposition, have no secondary weapons (e.g. hull heavy flamers that make really nice work of outflanking units like Kroot, Scouts, etc) besides lasguns, and are vulnerable to Ld7 morale tests.

Why I wouldn't play against forgeworld unless I had some:

Shadowsword.

Macharius.

Spartan.

Typhon.

Fellblade.

Bio-Titan.

Harridan.

Titans.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why I wouldn't play against forgeworld unless I had some:

Shadowsword.

Macharius.

Spartan.

Typhon.

Fellblade.

Bio-Titan.

Harridan.

Titans.

Most of those are apoc only units, the spartan is the only one that isn't IIRC.
So you shouldn't have to worry about them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, as a FW user myself, BRING ALL THE FOREGWORLD!
There can never be enough FW.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Why I wouldn't play against forgeworld unless I had some:

Ah yes, the classic "BUT OMG SUPERHEAVIES" response. Perhaps before making blanket rules about what you will and will not play against you should read the rules in question, and notice that those units are Apocalypse-only, and entirely different from the standard 40k units FW produces?

But its the idea... that they have access to those beasts...

I just want to faint at the idea of my friend having them.