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With respect soo'vah'cha the stamps for me mean very little, it realy comes down to it that forge world is additional content that I don't want to play with

But if someone is nice and friendly and goes" hey I got dis,dis and dis, that's all cool right?" I will be happy to compromise and play with them.
I can only hope they will play with me at sometime without them.

If someone wants to try and emotionally blackmail me into it, like a lot of for arguments seem to get to.
My mood would sour rather quickly.

Also on a off note, I haven't been able to buy anything off forgeworld :0 so I at this time realy cant get ahold of the rules.

And the nearest GW to me is a 800$ flight or a 14 hour drive, so if they have them, umm great !

Just as they made it absolutely clear that this doesn't relief you of the obligation to "make sure your opponent is comfortable with you using FW units".

They see it, I provide rules, that's how I make people comfortable if they dislike it I can try another list of mine, so long as they ask politely.

Course if they put up a fuss, I might just decline the game anyways since they aren't asking like a normal person and more trying to blackmail me with dubious legality, likely to be a TFG player.

If someone asked like a normal person if I can alter my list a little rather than attempt to say "Those aren't legal, and these dubious claims I'm making means you gotta put them away and play by my house rulings without a say in the matter.".

I am accommodating towards a person who acts like..well, a nice person.

Your regular army (including Forge World units if you choose to) works just fine in playing Spearhead or Planetstrike.

So you agree they are non-standard expansion games, glad you finally agree.

No official GW-studio publication is "stamped". Because unless products published by the actual same company, rather than a different one owned by the same holding, they are all part of the game by default. Codex Orks isn't "stamped" either as far as I am aware.

Oh they make apocalypse as well, so they make sure they differentiate between the non-standard game units and the standard game units they provide.

As noted, your definition of "standard" 40K appears to be one conveniently made up by you to support your preferences. Show me a definition of "standard" 40K (and of what is the extra prep "demanded" of non-standard 40K) and the thing would be settled.

Listed within the rulebook rules.

I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

The LA battle bunker is...special. People need to have their rules available for their opponent to read before a game, whether it's FW units or codex, ask to see the rules before the game, if they don't/can't provide them, then either way, codex or FW, there's an issue.

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

My condolances on those experiences, but what you are dealing with there is not a problem with FW units so much as it is a "Player" issue, I always bring my codex and any pertaining books along with any units I will field, and do full disclosure before a game, and give my opponent as much time as they like to read up on anything I plan of deloying.

Your experiences could easily be repeated by anyone playing against any unit that thier opponent "springs " on them, especially ones they are concealing in a case or somesuch.

Just politely but firmly ask to see the codex or rule entry for any unit you are not familiar with, and if they dont have it with them, request it be used as a unit that they do have the proper rules for, the examples you have stated are poor sports that are not interested in a good game.

 PuddlePirate wrote:
I've had alot of people play forgeworld models against my guard at the LA Battle Bunker, and eveerytime it has been torture. They explain some special rules but not the ones that can seriously hurt me, expecially if i don't specifically point and as about a model. For example if its still in the case in "reserve" then they wont tell me that it'll infiltrate and feth up my day and their only response is "oh yeah... i have that too... it does that" which is quite irritating. Or "btw i can assault the turn my drop pods come in... oh? you didnt know? well now you do". So 9/10 I will not play with a stranger carrying around FW models but if the guy realy needs a game or I know him and know he's a good dude then I'd be down... but this is rare at the LA battle bunker, for most of its patrons are highschool kids with social issues and adults who i have labeled as "elitest"

Uh. Isn't this the case whenever you play against anything new?

Don't tell me you weren't surprised the first time Marbo popped up and boned you.

FW stuff just adds new surprises. If you're a seasoned vet that hasn't been surprised by a unit in ages, this should be refreshing. If you're newer, then it shouldn't matter.

I've been more surprised playing against SoB lately than ever have been against FW stuff.

If they are 40k Approved FW why wouldn't you?

Okay so my opinion on the Planetstrike/Spearhead versus FW thing.

Both add content to "Base" 40k. No they aren't the same. Planetstrike changes the FOC, so we would need to pre-arrange the game so I can make a Planetstrike FOC army. FW doesn't change the FOC, so no real need to pre-arrange the game. If you want to, thats fine! But I see no need to, as long as they guy has the book on him so I can spend a few minutes looking at the rules. If I think they are okay, I will agree to play. If not, then we simply find new opponents. Boom. Situation over. We both end up enjoying a game, if it's against each other or someone else.


And yes, to me FW are just a part of 40k as any other unit. Since I play with a group of people who have more real-war influence, I see that as okay. We don't like to pre-arrange our armies for the game day, or tell each other what units we have (FW or not. We bring our codexes/books). After all (to us) real commanders don't openly meet to discuss what they will be bringing to the next battle (we like to figure out by spying on each other hahahahaha...)

Maby this should of been a pole

Brother maximus wrote:
Maby this should of been a pole

Oh, I think people are inserting their pole into this quite enough already.

My only issues would be

1. Badly scratched built models using fw rules (id let some orky stuff pass if it was really good and very well done fully painted models.)

2. And not actually owning the book to use said rules

Otherwise you spent the money on generally awesome models; you should have every right to use it and i would play you

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
you just havn't made an actual case against it being unofficial.

And I wasn't trying.

I was making a case against the assumption that a people with at least minimal social skills wouldn't have the "common sense" (to use Peregrine's phrase) to give their opponent a heads-up, ideally a day or so in advance, if they intend to bring Forge World rules.

IF you would also inform your opponent that you'll be using a codex, then it would be logically consistent to inform your opponent that you'll be using FW units.

Personally, I have never once bothered to say "I will be using the Grey Knights codex, is that ok?" however I will always ask "Have you played against this unit before?" to gauge their familiarity with the abilities and special rules. And I would extend the same courtesy for FW units. There's no difference between them and codex units, so I'm not going to treat them differently and would not expect my opponents to react differently. I'll ask if you've played against it before, and explain the rules and stats before the game, but I'm not going to be warning people in advance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
With respect soo'vah'cha the stamps for me mean very little, it realy comes down to it that forge world is additional content that I don't want to play with

But how is that different to thinking the Eldar Codex is just 'additional content' that you don't want to play with?

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:


See the little warhammer 40000 stamp in blue on the codex entry.

this was placed to avoid this form of debate, and to designate what was "legal" for what variation of the base game.

Now these are stamped for Apoclypse games..so they may only be used in those versions of the base game.

Planetstrike and Spearhead, modify the base game with stratagems and formation rules that entail changes from the base game, and changes that both players need be aware of, both for point expenditure and modification of unit abilities.

Forgeworld has gone to lengths with GW to make it abundantly clear what units are suitable for what version of the base 40k game.

Now of course you are always free to play or not to play against anyone at anytime, but FW has been made ( on a unit by unit basis ) legal in standard 40k play, and the argument that not everyone has acess to the rules , can be said for every army,I do not set every new codexes entries to memory nor buy every one that comes out, but If I use a said unit I will be more than happy to produce the official and most current rules for said unit.

(note both examples above are from FW own site.)

Perfect post, more eloquently said than what I have been trying.
I would like to add, logically speaking if ALL FW units are equal and fair, FW wouldn't need to be separated into the different category of said "stamps".
I think way too many people are stuck over "you need agreement to play a game" part.
You need agreement for everything, that part is redundant in this issue. What people are after is, clear set guidelines, for a supposed fair game, and its supplements.

Clear like in sports people set different weight class, separated like genders in certain olympics sports.
One may argue "well this lighter class person performed better than this one in another class".
Well yes every light have their variation in their spectrum, yet its the same reason why you never see a real match on tv of a woman vs man boxing match.
Could they agree to it? Sure...
Would it be possible for woman to win? sure... if she was a real pro while the man was a random hobo.
Would there be a purpose, a competitiveness? not really.... physically designed differently.

Same as apoc units vs normal 40k units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
With respect soo'vah'cha the stamps for me mean very little, it realy comes down to it that forge world is additional content that I don't want to play with

Quote from kaldor.
But how is that different to thinking the Eldar Codex is just 'additional content' that you don't want to play with?

Well I have to play with FW all the time, my army's is 100% FW, so that goes out of the window.

Apple fox wrote:
You don't have to play with forge world stuff all the time, and if you don't give the time to people who don't want to use it, but expect them to play with it. Well I think the argument has realy been lost.

You don't have to play with orks all the time, and if you don't give the time to people who don't want to use orks, but expect them to play with orks. Well I think the argument has really been lost.

And yes, I do have to play with FW stuff all the time, unless you want to buy me an entire second army and then build/paint it to match my current models.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well I have to play with FW all the time, my army's is 100% FW, so that goes out of the window.

well if you are nice about it I would have no issue there.

This is realy the reason GW realy should re organize how they do things, splitting the playerbase in such a way can't be healthy for the game ;(

hmm
The reasons I dislike the idea of forge world is that I like the restrictions in codexs, a fair and even(as it can be) pool of units within a army.
It's what I am interested in playing with.
Realy none of this is an argument it's just some of my opinion on why I don't like it.
Also I have nothing agenst the models used in army's ;D
And well as I said I can't even buy the books to see what my opinion on the units in the books are.

The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

 Bobthehero wrote:
The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

they are 0,o what are they ? I don't even know what army it is. And as I said. If you where nice about it I would play with you.

I wasn't aware of any lists up and legal on the net.

The army you use is death corps of krig ? I looked at your piccys.

I've refused to play against FW armies before.

It's usually because I really don't like the player and his attitude of "it's completely legal, why don't you want to play against it, pussy?" though.

Because I've played against them before, and it just wasn't worth the aggro of their constant disputing of rules, flexibility with their own readings, and generally ignoring Wil Wheaton's rule (Rule #1. Don't be a d*ck).

Apple fox wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

they are 0,o what are they ? I don't even know what army it is. And as I said. If you where nice about it I would play with you.

I wasn't aware of any lists up and legal on the net.

The army you use is death corps of krig ? I looked at your piccys.

Yup, http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf this + the artillery update pdf on FW website + the last page of the IG codex with all the weapon stats.

 Bobthehero wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The rules are freely (and legally!) avaible on google in the case of my army, so that's no excuse

they are 0,o what are they ? I don't even know what army it is. And as I said. If you where nice about it I would play with you.

I wasn't aware of any lists up and legal on the net.

The army you use is death corps of krig ? I looked at your piccys.

Yup, http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf this + the artillery update pdf on FW website + the last page of the IG codex with all the weapon stats.

I wasn't aware any full army got a whole online army list, even sisters don't hehe.

But realy, if you are nice and not cheeky like some others. I would play ;D and I sure I would have fun. But I would still be weary of it and would probably be far less keen to play without looking it over.
It's the assumed risk of a full forgeworld army I guess.

Apple fox wrote:
if you are nice and not cheeky like some others. I would play

What I don't like (and I'm not sure it was intentional) is the implication that ONLY people using a codex have to be nice.

That's not fair or logical.

Everyone should be held to the same standard, and if you're going to refuse to play someone with FW units because they act a certain way, then you should refuse to play people with regular armies if they act the same way.

There is no difference between FW units, and regular units. No difference.

 Kaldor wrote:
There is no difference between FW units, and regular units. No difference.

Except you have to pay extra for the IA books, and then pay even more extra for the FW models. And that really ticks me off the worst. How is it fair that some armies have viable flyers in their Codex (and GW models) when others have to buy IA and overpriced FW models if they want any? The Orks and Space Marines got flyers in a WD but you might not even find that issue anymore.

Necrons have the fliers in their codex and the GW kit costs 36€. So do the Ork/SM flyers. Valkyrie kit is 52€, Stormraven 65€. If I want a flyer for my SoB I'll have to shell out ~31€ for IA Aeronautica and ~111€ per Avenger Strike Fighter. Yay...

And the funny issue of the Codex usually saying it's all you need to play Army X. The Forgeworld units should be included in the Errata then, shouldn't they?

 Kaldor wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
if you are nice and not cheeky like some others. I would play

What I don't like (and I'm not sure it was intentional) is the implication that ONLY people using a codex have to be nice.

That's not fair or logical.

Everyone should be held to the same standard, and if you're going to refuse to play someone with FW units because they act a certain way, then you should refuse to play people with regular armies if they act the same way.

There is no difference between FW units, and regular units. No difference.

Oh yes, being nice always is best ;D I think for people with Forgeworld it's best to be mindful that it's a extra thing for conflict to form.
informing your opponent befor everything is setup and army's are being deployed, and being friendly about your want to using the forge world rules goes a long way.
I just want to also play without it, so I happy to play but want bit extra warning. And well hope when possible have players play without also.

Also I struggle with English so I struggle a lot trying to get my opinion across ;(

Apple fox wrote:

Oh yes, being nice always is best ;D I think for people with Forgeworld it's best to be mindful that it's a extra thing for conflict to form.
informing your opponent befor everything is setup and army's are being deployed, and being friendly about your want to using the forge world rules goes a long way.
I just want to also play without it, so I happy to play but want bit extra warning. And well hope when possible have players play without also.

Also I struggle with English so I struggle a lot trying to get my opinion across ;(

You're doing pretty well for a non-native English speaker.

You say "it's an extra thing for conflict to form". I say it shouldn't be. It should be exactly the same as playing against a regular codex.

And where you say "I just want to also play without it" I want to ask, why? Why FW units, but not codex units?

I'd be fine if I was playing against things such as different space marines (the different marks) the different terminators. Basically, if it is a unit that is in a codex, I''d play against it anytime. Providing that it adheres to normal 40k rules.

If I was playing a Horus Heresy army though, I would want to clarify things.

It really depends how flexible and how generous you are.

If I get educated with the rules for them, like just a quick overview (or let me see the book), that would be completely fine, I would love to play against a beautiful army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That sentence has bad grammar, I should know better.

 Kaldor wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Oh yes, being nice always is best ;D I think for people with Forgeworld it's best to be mindful that it's a extra thing for conflict to form.
informing your opponent befor everything is setup and army's are being deployed, and being friendly about your want to using the forge world rules goes a long way.
I just want to also play without it, so I happy to play but want bit extra warning. And well hope when possible have players play without also.

Also I struggle with English so I struggle a lot trying to get my opinion across ;(

You're doing pretty well for a non-native English speaker.

You say "it's an extra thing for conflict to form". I say it shouldn't be. It should be exactly the same as playing against a regular codex.

And where you say "I just want to also play without it" I want to ask, why? Why FW units, but not codex units?

Hmm, that hard to explain.

I like to play with the codexs as they are intended, and don't want to have the extra units changing the way they play.
Hmm, that's the gist of it but not realy what I want to say >.<
Looking at the krig list I would be happy to play it, as it has restrictions based on ballence to the list and isn't just all the forge world models for IG they haved added.

Maybe another way is I don't want to play with army's having vast outnumbered choices to others( the codexs not perfect at that eather to start with) so maybe I will change it from a dislike to forgeworld , to more a dislike to how it is used.
I want to see the cool models but I don't want to turn up to a game agenst space marines, and suddenly find I'm facing a force full of stuff I have to change all my thaghts for.
This can also come back to, if people willing to inform me of the details I normaly open to play and sadly experiences have sour this fealing over the years.

Does that make sence ;0

Of corse I am open to my opinion changing on all off this, but for now I will still prefer agenst it. I had some more to add to this paragraph but I opting to not post it ;( As I not willing to share to the open thread, so that's my best thaghts on it ;D

Apple fox wrote:
I like to play with the codexs as they are intended, and don't want to have the extra units changing the way they play.
Hmm, that's the gist of it but not realy what I want to say

I can understand that, but wouldn't it be easier to just take an open view? I mean, what about units added by White Dwarf, or even just units added with a new codex?

It's not like the codexes are evenly balanced, either. Necron flier spam is one of the most broken abusive lists I've ever seen, and I play Grey Knights!

I want to see the cool models but I don't want to turn up to a game agenst space marines, and suddenly find I'm facing a force full of stuff I have to change all my thaghts for.
This can also come back to, if people willing to inform me of the details I normaly open to play and sadly experiences have sour this fealing over the years.

Does that make sence ;0

Yeah, that kinda makes sense but really it's no different to playing an army you've never played before. Even if it's just because it's a new codex. A player should always be willing to explain new units and new rules that their opponent may not be familiar with, but at the same time I wouldn't expect any player to have to ask if it's ok to use official rules for a standard game, whether that's using rules from White Dwarf, a new codex that I haven't played against before or if it's Forge World rules.

I mean, if you got a new codex for your army, would you actually ask your opponent if it was ok to use the new codex? Or would you just offer to explain everything for them as you went through the game?