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How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:17:22


Post by: Highland_Piper


Now I'm writing this just to get a feel for what is going on. I'm an old school gamer. Back when GW would offer plans for it's vehicles and terrain to make it yourself. Personally as long as someone has put some effort into it and not just plunked a tissue box with a towel roll on it claiming it's their Baneblade then I think it's grand. This is a hobby after all. I know some of us in this hobby are 'purists' and that scratch built vehicles are not allowed in Tournaments but when I look at getting a new Landraider at £45.00 each the only thing I can think of is a) I could purchase two box sets of figures for that or b) that is half a weeks grocery bill for my family of six.

So now if I want to continue playing the way I want I need to build my own vehicles so I can use my spare £££ for figures.





Also I get more enjoyment out of building them from scratch!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:30:13


Post by: -Loki-


I hate papercraft vehicles for the most part. I understand gaming on a budget - I did it extensively during 3rd edition. In fact, all of 3rd edition. My army stayed pretty much the same for the whole edition, due to me being a student.

I never resorted to papercrafting stuff. It rarely ends up looking like it should. Reasonably close, sure, but you can still tell, simply at a glance, that you're playing against a cardboard land raider.

My brother does it extensively, and it annoys the crap out of me. I've seen him turn up to an Apocalypse game with 4 papercraft Baneblades, then brag about how easily he won. It's just not something I'll ever support.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:34:32


Post by: Zygrot24


I appreciate and respect papercraft, but I do not enjoy playing against it.

Extreme example but one of my first experiences at a games store was playing against a guy whose IG army had 4 cardboard Leman Russ, and at least 20 saggy, limp silicone crappily casted guardsmen. Not even close to the quality in the OP, but it turned me off pretty bad to DIY. The store was full of guys who didn't have any if much more money than him, and they were playing smaller games with what they could afford. They lovingly assembled and painted what they had, and this kid callously walked in bragging about having 2k (of trash) and it was just uncool.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:36:23


Post by: chromedog


Ah, but there is good papercraft and there is cheap papercraft.
The OP is of the former.
I'd allow those. You can tell what they are. Looks like enough effort has gone into them (and more effort than the plastic kits take to assemble)..


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:37:33


Post by: WaaaaghLord


Theres a massive difference between putting time and effort into pieces than there is gluing some card together and calling it a day. I will refuse to play a papercraft army, strictly on principle. It's just not fair to people who've put effort, time, and more importantly, money into painting and modelling their armies to play something that has just walked it's way out of Staples via a printer. By all means convert something out of a toy or whatever, because to make a good job that takes skill. But this is wargaming, not origami.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:40:52


Post by: Tannhauser42


I'd rather play against a well made and colored papercraft tank like the ones in the first post than play against a badly painted real model any day of the week. It's no different than the people who scratchbuild their own thunderhawks and titans with plasticard, cardboard, and extra bits. And for those who think it takes no time and effort to build a paper model, it took me nearly an hour just to cut, fold, glue, and tape together just the feet for a Warhound titan. I gave up after that point, too much work to finish the project.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:42:22


Post by: WaaaaghLord


Realise that my post might have come across a little harshly there. The above post is correct. As long as genuine time and effort has gone into making it, then fair play. Otherwise it's just a cheap crap alternative surely?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 02:44:00


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


Well, I'd rather play against the OP's paper tanks than against a guy who glues a bunch of sprues to the top of a (cheap) toy tank and calls it a battlewagon.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 03:18:43


Post by: nkelsch


Rule of cool.

I find scratch build models cool.

I do not find printed out papercraft cool.

I have seen amazing papercraft with real details, real 3 dimensions which show effort to make it a 'model made out of paper' and not just a papercraft stand-in.

Plasticard and PVC plastic rivets and a paintjob go a long way to showing 'cool' over a taped-up paper box.

I would probably find something better to do than to play with the OP and his models. I don't find them cool and my time is better spent chatting painting with guys at a painting table and declining the game than playing against papercraft.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 03:22:55


Post by: AegisGrimm


Absolutely, if the models look the part and had effort put into them. First of all, printer ink ain't cheap, and I can almost guarantee something like that landraider above took longer than actually painting a plastic landraider to that quality.

Sneering at models like what most of use proponents are envisioning is incredibly snobby to those of use who have been around since the early days- days when you couldn't even buy things like a Wave Serpent at all, because even Forgeworld didn't exist yet! There was even a photographic guide in White Dwarf once about how to make the turret for one out of a plastic spoon and two shuriken cannons from the Vyper kit to go on top of a Falcon!

I have found several PDF's on sharing sites that would allow me to make a papercraft model to the detail of that Landraider in the OP- possibly even from the same source. One is for an entire Thunderhawk, and I am sorely tempted, I'm telling you!

(sarcastic) Anyone telling me that I have to buy a Forgeworld Tunderhawk before they will play me can bite it hard.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 03:24:28


Post by: Peregrine


It depends on the model.

If the quality of your scratchbuilt model is at least as good as the official model and you built it because you wanted to have something that isn't the standard model, great. I'd love to play against it.

If you want to use a scratchbuilt model because it's easier and/or cheaper than buying a real one, no.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 03:27:23


Post by: AegisGrimm


I would say that if the scratchbuilt model was easier to make then buying and assembling the actual model, then not enough effort went into it, because nearly every scratchbuild model I've seen (that looks good, obviously) took a great deal more effort than using the original model.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 03:40:42


Post by: UselesswizarD


Go for it. I have no problem at all with papercraft models any more than I have problems with plasticard models. They are usually more trouble than they're really worth in my opinion.

It seems to me that some people are under the impression that papercraft models are easier to put together and paint than plastic models, and this is FAR from the truth. I've put hours and hours of time putting together a couple of paper rhinos and in the end it would have been much fast to simply have bought the models and put the plastic kits together. There's nothing fast about paper modeling. It may be cheaper at first glance, but if you compare the extra time you spend putting them together to how much you might have earned working at your job in that same amount of time it result is usually that it's about the same amount of money.

If you want to make an army of paper tanks, fine. I tried it and I probably won't try again. I'd rather work three extra hours at my job and buy the kit with that. However, if you find a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction in putting paper models together and painting them, then have at it mate! This is a hobby and my little plastic army men will happily do battle against your paper tanks.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 03:59:30


Post by: -Loki-


 UselesswizarD wrote:
It seems to me that some people are under the impression that papercraft models are easier to put together and paint than plastic models, and this is FAR from the truth. I've put hours and hours of time putting together a couple of paper rhinos and in the end it would have been much fast to simply have bought the models and put the plastic kits together. There's nothing fast about paper modeling. It may be cheaper at first glance, but if you compare the extra time you spend putting them together to how much you might have earned working at your job in that same amount of time it result is usually that it's about the same amount of money.


That depends on what you want your end result to be. In my case, my brother threw down 4 plasticard boxes in the vague shape of Baneblades with a few hatches thrown on for 'detail'. That is still a paper/plasticard-craft model. That's what turns me off about it. Like Zygrot24, I respect the amount of time put into making a good one, but it doesn't make me enjoy playing against them.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 04:00:41


Post by: We


It's your hobby do what you want and what you enjoy. Papercraft is way harder and more expensive than it looks having done some of it for buildings. I would rather play someone with papercraft vehicles than someone who hasn't painted their army.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 08:07:01


Post by: Sigvatr


It depends on the visuals. Your tank looks absolutely amazing and I'd enjoy playing against it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 08:24:20


Post by: Enzephalon


Depends on the look. If it's valid like yours, I'd play a game with you.
I have to ask you though, since you are spending much time and effort. Why don't you use plasticcard?
It's easy to work with, far more resilient than paper and it can be painted with acrylics.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 09:03:28


Post by: WaaaaghLord


So if it's no cheaper, and takes exactly the same amount of time, why not just buy the real thing?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 09:03:43


Post by: Mecha_buddha


The OP has models that look amazing, more importantly they look exactly like what he wants to play them as.

A lot of comments seem to resent papercraft because they didnt buy models, I would rather play someone that put effort into his army.

Two scenarios that drive me nuts, guy has a full 1500 point IG army, everything is glued together primed black, he considers this as "finished" I cant tell what squat is.

scenario 2, guy has 50 bolter tac marines, painted ok. then he explains his army "these 5 are devastators with missiles, these 5 are devastators with lascannon, these 10 are assault marines with jumppacks, this is a 10 man tac squad with melta multi melta...etc etc. completely maddening.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WaaaaghLord wrote:
So if it's no cheaper, and takes exactly the same amount of time, why not just buy the real thing?


Papercraft seems to be the extreme hobby dilemma of time vs money. the raw materials are cheap, but to do it well, you need to spend much more of your time.

Its like buying used models, popping them apart, stripping them and rebuilding them. you save money but it takes more time than if you grabbed a kit to start with.

with both there is a certain amount of hobbyist pride when the items turn out well.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 09:19:16


Post by: Herzlos


Mecha_buddha wrote:
A lot of comments seem to resent papercraft because they didnt buy models, I would rather play someone that put effort into his army.


That's how it seems to me too. I'd rather play against someone who made some effort than someone who is trying to buy their way to success. As long as I can see what it is (the OP's examples are great) then I can't see the issue. I cannot grasp how the money they spent is relevant to the game, do you frown on people buying 2nd hand or converting?




How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 09:21:57


Post by: chromedog


 WaaaaghLord wrote:
So if it's no cheaper, and takes exactly the same amount of time, why not just buy the real thing?


Sometimes it's not about the cost but the DIY aspect and pushing yourself to do something.
Nothing beats the satisfaction of building something from the ground up - anyone who has worked with their hands on something, like a boat or car or whatever, will tell you the same. It's a more individual thing.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 10:00:21


Post by: Highland_Piper


 Enzephalon wrote:
Depends on the look. If it's valid like yours, I'd play a game with you.
I have to ask you though, since you are spending much time and effort. Why don't you use plasticcard?
It's easy to work with, far more resilient than paper and it can be painted with acrylics.


Plasticard is too expensive. At £0.40 to £1.50 per A4 sheet then I might as well purchase the GW model. I can get 500 sheets of 200 gsm paper for £5.00, cereal box for essentially free, and 2mm A1 mat board 2 for £2.50. I purchase my ink through a secondary ink company rather than the brand name so I can get three of each cartridge for only £20.00 that will last months.

At this moment I'd rather spend my hobby budget on figures and then replace my scratch built when I have the figures I want.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 11:51:18


Post by: Forbino


I come down on the side of, its a luxury and if you can't afford it you shouldn't do it. I will grudgingly play against them, but I'd rather play against real models and will take a game against a primer army vs a paper craft army any day of the week. I feel this twice as much for forgeworld. I dropped the cash on it, and then seeing paper versions of them galls me.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 12:38:21


Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH


As long as they are done well, like in the case of the vehies the OP posted then I have zero problem with them.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 12:47:42


Post by: angel of ecstasy


 Forbino wrote:
its a luxury and if you can't afford it you shouldn't do it.

Elitist much? It's a hobby, and if you're inventive and crafty enough to pull something like this off you most certainly should do it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 12:59:25


Post by: Kaisan


I don't mind scratchbuild vehicules, or even miniatures (I can't remember where, but is saw a fantastic tau battlesuit that was completely scratchbuilt)
however, papercraft is something else. It looks... cartoonish, and simply doesn't feel the same on the gaming boards.
On the other hand, if the papercrafted vehicule looks good and is similar in dimensions, I would definitevely allow it


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 13:19:43


Post by: Forbino



Elitist much? It's a hobby, and if you're inventive and crafty enough to pull something like this off you most certainly should do it.


I'll cop to it. Its an opinion thread, and I have as valid an opinion of how I want to experience my hobby as anyone else. I'll applaud the level of detail the OP put into it, but would be more impressed if that effort were put into scratch builds of cool stuff you can't buy (There is a scratch build leviathan on the web I completely applaud) but your mileage clearly varies.

But at the end of the day, if you can't afford the hobby, yadda yadda yadda as previously stated. I also think that goes towards ANY hobby though. If you can't afford to play golf, but are determined to, you shouldn't expect people to want to play against you if all you have is a crooked stick you've gotten good with.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 13:32:54


Post by: starsdawn


It being an opinion doesn't make it sound less dickish.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 13:41:04


Post by: DX3


Your papercraft looks better than most of the unpainted, half put together, proxy-laden armies I play outside of tournaments.

I'd have no problem with it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 13:45:59


Post by: hdbbstephen


Mecha_buddha wrote:
The OP has models that look amazing, more importantly they look exactly like what he wants to play them as.


Exactly, I agree. As long as they look good I am cool with them, because the alternatives are worse:

Two scenarios that drive me nuts, guy has a full 1500 point IG army, everything is glued together primed black, he considers this as "finished" I cant tell what squat is.

scenario 2, guy has 50 bolter tac marines, painted ok. then he explains his army "these 5 are devastators with missiles, these 5 are devastators with lascannon, these 10 are assault marines with jumppacks, this is a 10 man tac squad with melta multi melta...etc etc. completely maddening.


I built my own Crassus with $4 worth of plasticard and about 16 hours of work (yes, I am in need of an airbrush for the camo...) and, frankly, I can't wait to use it. The gang at my FLGS thinks it's pretty sharp.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 13:48:12


Post by: AduroT


Is it easy to tell what it's Supposed to be? Do I think you designed it to take advantage of or get around a certain rule(ex, true los)? Does it look like you put honest effort into it and aren't just trying to be cheap?

I'd let you use it. Don't care if its kit bashed, scratch built or models from another game.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 14:32:10


Post by: master of ordinance


Provided it looks good all goes with me. The only exception i have is to those 2D paper models. Any other form of papercraft is fine but playing an army that just has to perform a 90 degree turn to become invisible isnt fun.
I used to papercraft(until the cats ate most of it) and i will gladly face an army that has papercraft in it provided it is 3D.

I dont care what miniline your figs are from or if they are scratch built provided they A look the part and B look good.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 19:47:23


Post by: Eilif


Nice job on the tanks! The don't look as nice IMHO, as the "real thing" but are nicely executed, well colored, clearly represent alot of effort and talent and more than meet what I would consider standards for a gaming model.

I'm firmly in the if it looks good then I'll play it, and I also play with second party figures.

My current club (which I helped establish) doesn't allow any unpainted models and so I'm much more interested in whether or not it's painted. I'd much rather play against the vehicles pictured in this thread than any kit, conversion, or plastic scratchbuild that shows up on the table unpainted or unfinished.

All that said, I do agree with some of the folks with the crappy-model horror stories above. If it's a cardboard box with paint on it in only roughly the same shape as a Baneblade, it's still a cardboard box and not a gaming model.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 19:53:13


Post by: kronk




These are excellently done and I would not have a problem playing against them. "Scratch-built" is purely a case-by-case basis for me. If you put the time and effort into it to make them look like what they're supposed to be, you'll get nothing but compliments from me.

If it looks like a coke bottle you primed and glued a storm bolter onto it, then no, I'm not interested in playing against your coke bottle drop pods.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 20:37:24


Post by: Alfndrate


 kronk wrote:


These are excellently done and I would not have a problem playing against them. "Scratch-built" is purely a case-by-case basis for me. If you put the time and effort into it to make them look like what they're supposed to be, you'll get nothing but compliments from me.

If it looks like a coke bottle you primed and glued a storm bolter onto it, then no, I'm not interested in playing against your coke bottle drop pods.


What if they fit thematically with my Dr. Pepper Marines? 23 flavors of Spehz Mahreens in 1 army.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 20:42:55


Post by: angel of ecstasy


 Alfndrate wrote:
 kronk wrote:


These are excellently done and I would not have a problem playing against them. "Scratch-built" is purely a case-by-case basis for me. If you put the time and effort into it to make them look like what they're supposed to be, you'll get nothing but compliments from me.

If it looks like a coke bottle you primed and glued a storm bolter onto it, then no, I'm not interested in playing against your coke bottle drop pods.


What if they fit thematically with my Dr. Pepper Marines? 23 flavors of Spehz Mahreens in 1 army.

I'd love that. I'd play, take pictures and make a battle report.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 20:50:00


Post by: Boss GreenNutz


I'd play the OPs tanks and just think of the realism. You destroy one you strike a match to it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 21:23:49


Post by: skycapt44


I'm all for the custom works but am often puzzled as to why people go to such great lengths to build out of paper and the like. I mean yes it can look great but takes hours upon hours to model. A previous poster mentioned a tank taking 16 hours to create. Even working at a minimum wage job say McDicks you would easily pull in $100+ in 16 hours of work. Maybe it's just me and I guess there are those who don't have jobs so this wouldn't apply. But to those folks who have jobs I don't see the point (unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building) of building models out of paper when you can easily buy second hand chimeras/rhinos for about $20...and they are durable, official and simple to strip if needed.

Am I missing something?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 21:31:12


Post by: nkelsch


 hdbbstephen wrote:

I built my own Crassus with $4 worth of plasticard and about 16 hours of work (yes, I am in need of an airbrush for the camo...) and, frankly, I can't wait to use it. The gang at my FLGS thinks it's pretty sharp.



I see a distinct difference between your Crassus and the OP's models. Your model is complete, painted and passes rule of cool.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 21:34:00


Post by: angel of ecstasy


 skycapt44 wrote:
I'm all for the custom works but am often puzzled as to why people go to such great lengths to build out of paper and the like. I mean yes it can look great but takes hours upon hours to model. A previous poster mentioned a tank taking 16 hours to create. Even working at a minimum wage job say McDicks you would easily pull in $100+ in 16 hours of work. Maybe it's just me and I guess there are those who don't have jobs so this wouldn't apply. But to those folks who have jobs I don't see the point (unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building) of building models out of paper when you can easily buy second hand chimeras/rhinos for about $20...and they are durable, official and simple to strip if needed.

Am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing something. It's right there in your post.
(unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building)

For some people (not for everyone, but for some) this is a hobby and not just "The Games Workshop Hobby".


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 21:55:00


Post by: JB_Man


As long as it looks like what it represents, it's cool. The whole "it's not fair!!!" argument is pure nonsense. What keeps you from making your stuff out of paper, too? Nothing. It's your personal choice to buy the models and paint them. I choose to buy and paint the models, but I think paper/cardboard/plasticard models are freaking awesome, when well done. Tone that elitism down...


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 21:58:22


Post by: Eilif


 angel of ecstasy wrote:
 skycapt44 wrote:
I'm all for the custom works but am often puzzled as to why people go to such great lengths to build out of paper and the like. I mean yes it can look great but takes hours upon hours to model. A previous poster mentioned a tank taking 16 hours to create. Even working at a minimum wage job say McDicks you would easily pull in $100+ in 16 hours of work. Maybe it's just me and I guess there are those who don't have jobs so this wouldn't apply. But to those folks who have jobs I don't see the point (unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building) of building models out of paper when you can easily buy second hand chimeras/rhinos for about $20...and they are durable, official and simple to strip if needed.

Am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing something. It's right there in your post.
(unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building)

For some people (not for everyone, but for some) this is a hobby and not just "The Games Workshop Hobby".


+1,
Many folks enjoy various forms of the "scratchbuilding" hobby. A few personal examples.
1) I could buy premade-prepainted terrain. It's not that expensive, and it's instantly ready. Instead, I choose to collect tons of odds and ends and craft them into custom terrain despite the massive amount of time required. I really enjoy doing this.
2) I bought 3 extremely battered Bassilisks for 60 bucks shipped. I had to scratchbuild parts strip the models and do a ton of cleanup. Even at miniumum wage, the number of hours it took "cost" me much more than the cost of buying new. However, I really enjoy the process, I don't mind spending the time, and I like saving 100 bucks for use in other things.

Also as folks have said regarding stretching their gamign dollar, $ saved on ______ is cash that can be spent on something else!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 22:16:50


Post by: BolingbrokeIV


Anything which shows creative effort gets the go ahead from me. The fun part of this hobby happens off the table, the gaming table is just where you show off the things you painted/sculpted/built in my eyes.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 22:28:19


Post by: Grimtuff


 -Loki- wrote:
I hate papercraft vehicles for the most part. I understand gaming on a budget - I did it extensively during 3rd edition. In fact, all of 3rd edition. My army stayed pretty much the same for the whole edition, due to me being a student.

I never resorted to papercrafting stuff. It rarely ends up looking like it should. Reasonably close, sure, but you can still tell, simply at a glance, that you're playing against a cardboard land raider.


This.

Like many things in life, it is something I simply do not "get". I can understand why people would want to do it. But there are certain things that do not translate, even on a well done one. The Heavy Bolters on both of the OP's vehicles for example, they just look poor and exacerbate the "stingey penny pinching miser" image that these models give off.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 22:54:18


Post by: AegisGrimm


If elitism says I can't use scratchbuilt paper or plasticard models that look just like the real model, then by that law we should be disallowed from using any terrain other than GW terrain kits. Because why spend the time to make your own terrain when you can just buy the kit, you cheap-skate?

And plus, your version of a bunker or woods also probably doesn't even fit the GW aesthetic enough for me to allow you to use it in a game, so I'd rather snub you than play against you and socialize.

*Sarcasm off*


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 23:04:28


Post by: buckero0


You could have cardboard cutout marines, as long as I can tell what weapons are on them, I would play. Actually cardboard marines with "meltagun" glued on would be just as easy to tell as anything else. I would have no problem playing you. It's a game - some people get enjoyment from the hobby, some people enjoy gaming, some people like both.

The time and effort for me to build something like you have (which looks pretty nice if you ask me) is way more than plopping down some cash for something. There are times when I wish someone would build an army for me or if they had armies I could rent, just so I wouldn't have to lug stuff around and take time to build all the stuff. I enjoy the hobby, but I do not enjoy building and painting troops just to have enough to play. I would rather build 3-4 guys and just pain them with what armorment I thought cool, instead of what I need to actually win a game.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 23:18:32


Post by: Grimtuff


 AegisGrimm wrote:
If elitism says I can't use scratchbuilt paper or plasticard models that look just like the real model, then by that law we should be disallowed from using any terrain other than GW terrain kits. Because why spend the time to make your own terrain when you can just buy the kit, you cheap-skate?

And plus, your version of a bunker or woods also probably doesn't even fit the GW aesthetic enough for me to allow you to use it in a game, so I'd rather snub you than play against you and socialize.

*Sarcasm off*




*not sure if you're replying to me or the thread in general*


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/12 23:25:08


Post by: AegisGrimm


The general feel of elitism.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 04:54:13


Post by: heartserenade


As for me I don't even care if you put time and effort in them, as long as they do look good.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 07:57:56


Post by: madman12367


See, I really don't mind if it is well made, ad isn't going to fall apart or crumple up when I or they pick it up. If it's one of those things a 12 year old kid decided to attempt to make and it more just turned out as a ball of paper no, I wouldn't allow it, I' rather someone used one of my spare tanks to have a good game as opposed to something like that.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 08:37:03


Post by: chromedog


I'd rather the OPs papercraft creations than some of the abominations assembled by the cack-handed clueless gimboids I used to have to play against when I did play in a store.

At least I can recognise what they are meant to be.

So official kits don't count a damn if they were assembled with all the care and grace of a drunken fratboy during pledge week.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 09:01:47


Post by: Marrak


I was expecting something waaaay different with the title of the thread.

Those papercraft models are actually rather good, considering. I know some websites offer amazing papercraft kits that I was hard pressed to tell weren't plastic or metal or resin at first glance.

The models in the OPs post? Private game at home, sure no problem. But I play at a GW store... so I doubt they'd fly there, or any other game store. Personally, I don't have a glaring issue.

What I -do- have issues with are people who, like others have mentioned, seem to want to break every law of physics to see just how much they can slap onto a single model. I've seen models so atrociously built that I couldn't even fathom just how they intended to paint them, with options literally layered one after the other. It was beyond busy... it was just abhorrent.

-


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 09:05:04


Post by: Florintine Mallorean


Honestly I would rather play against someone who has papercraft like the OP instead of the proxies and such some of the people i know use.
Also as the price to play keeps rising I would rather use papercraft myself now as well.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 10:29:41


Post by: cormadepanda


In my opinion, scratch craft is one of the few things i hold worth more then a model. Paper, and card board however, i hate. Plasticard, and such, because it looks better painted, and is much closer to a real deal i am all for! Playing orks is a good way to get into plasticard and such. I say more crafting less hassling!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 11:05:56


Post by: KingCracker


As long as the scratch built vehicle is close to the right size and is WYSIWYG I dont care. I also dont mind so much when someone says "This carnifex is actually the tervigon this time around" Thats fine, its close to the right size and everything else. I cant stand however when someone has a bunch of troops and says well this guy with the green eyes, hes the plasma gunner, and that guy with the missing arm? Well hes the Sgt with powerfist. Because later in that game that powerfist is ALWAYS a power weapon when it really counts.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 11:05:57


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Go for it, if it's cool, do it


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 11:45:53


Post by: hdbbstephen


Eilif wrote:
 angel of ecstasy wrote:
 skycapt44 wrote:
I'm all for the custom works but am often puzzled as to why people go to such great lengths to build out of paper and the like.... A previous poster mentioned a tank taking 16 hours to create. ... I don't see the point (unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building) of building models out of paper ...

Am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing something. It's right there in your post.
(unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building)

For some people (not for everyone, but for some) this is a hobby and not just "The Games Workshop Hobby".


+1,
Many folks enjoy various forms of the "scratchbuilding" hobby. A few personal examples.
1) I could buy premade-prepainted terrain. It's not that expensive, and it's instantly ready. Instead, I choose to collect tons of odds and ends and craft them into custom terrain despite the massive amount of time required. I really enjoy doing this.
2) I bought 3 extremely battered Bassilisks for 60 bucks shipped. I had to scratchbuild parts strip the models and do a ton of cleanup. Even at miniumum wage, the number of hours it took "cost" me much more than the cost of buying new. However, I really enjoy the process, I don't mind spending the time, and I like saving 100 bucks for use in other things.

Also as folks have said regarding stretching their gamign dollar, $ saved on ______ is cash that can be spent on something else!


Exactly. Even if I had ordered the Crassus from FW I likely would have invested that same amount of time in construction and painting. I built my own because the idea of spending hundreds of bucks on a model seems outlandish when I have the tools, skill and patience to do it myself. For me, that is the hobby, I get the most enjoyment from converting, building, etc. and would keep doing it if all the players went away.

Having said that, it is nice to get together with friendly people, show off your work, get comments and suggestions, and even play a game or two.

Stay tuned, I have some plans for a scratch-built Vulture in the pipeline...


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 12:47:14


Post by: Lansirill


Heck, why should I have to play against someone with a poorly painted army? If you can't paint to a high tabletop standard, pay someone else to do it. If you can't afford to pay someone, then maybe you need a more affordable hobby.

Can't play the game at a top tournament level? Hire someone to train you until you figure it out, or stay away. Why should I waste my time playing someone who isn't very good? Again, if you can't afford it, maybe this isn't the right hobby for you.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 12:59:07


Post by: angel of ecstasy


 Lansirill wrote:
Heck, why should I have to play against someone with a poorly painted army? If you can't paint to a high tabletop standard, pay someone else to do it. If you can't afford to pay someone, then maybe you need a more affordable hobby.

Can't play the game at a top tournament level? Hire someone to train you until you figure it out, or stay away. Why should I waste my time playing someone who isn't very good? Again, if you can't afford it, maybe this isn't the right hobby for you.

Or better yet, hire someone to play the game for you.



"Can I get a Dakka-amen?"


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 13:01:00


Post by: Highland_Piper


 Lansirill wrote:
Heck, why should I have to play against someone with a poorly painted army? If you can't paint to a high tabletop standard, pay someone else to do it. If you can't afford to pay someone, then maybe you need a more affordable hobby.

Can't play the game at a top tournament level? Hire someone to train you until you figure it out, or stay away. Why should I waste my time playing someone who isn't very good? Again, if you can't afford it, maybe this isn't the right hobby for you.


Wow! Really? So if everyone who does not have the skill of the Heavy Metal team should go find another hobby? You realise that GW would fold within a year if that was the case. Out of all the posts yours shocked me the most!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 13:54:42


Post by: Ovion


My only 2 issues with the OPs are that
A: They should be painted, undercoating the entire thing will seal it properly, and it'll look a lot classier painted (assuming you actually made the details with 2-3 layers of card and it's not just printed on.)
B: Some of the guns need a bit more work / some things need aligning better.

It's good so far though.

Highland_Piper wrote:
 Enzephalon wrote:
Depends on the look. If it's valid like yours, I'd play a game with you.
I have to ask you though, since you are spending much time and effort. Why don't you use plasticcard?
It's easy to work with, far more resilient than paper and it can be painted with acrylics.


Plasticard is too expensive. At £0.40 to £1.50 per A4 sheet then I might as well purchase the GW model. I can get 500 sheets of 200 gsm paper for £5.00, cereal box for essentially free, and 2mm A1 mat board 2 for £2.50. I purchase my ink through a secondary ink company rather than the brand name so I can get three of each cartridge for only £20.00 that will last months.

At this moment I'd rather spend my hobby budget on figures and then replace my scratch built when I have the figures I want.


You say you might as well buy the GW model, but for £5-10 worth of plasticard you'd be able to make the Land Raider, and a lil more resilient than the card.

That said, these are made from Cardboard:

(I do intend to go back and go over some edges with milliput now though)


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:11:42


Post by: kronk


So, what's the toaster on the right supposed to be?

And what's the air filter on the left?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:24:36


Post by: puree


Forbino wrote: I will grudgingly play against them, but I'd rather play against real models



The OP is showing real models?

Or are you redefining what 'model' means?



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:26:03


Post by: JohnnyHell


All miniatures are just glorified counters or tokens at the end of the day.

No need to get bent out of shape over card models or scracthbuilds, unless they are of course! ;-)

Being an OAP (33, ancient in GW terms!) I remember when Games Workshop actually published the templates to make your own Gobsmashas, Baneblades et al in White Dwarf and encouraged you to make your own card vehicles. Most of my Ork vehicles and models were scratchbuilds or mashups or half card constructions. Great days, lots of fun modelling to be done.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:42:24


Post by: Ovion


 kronk wrote:
So, what's the toaster on the right supposed to be?

And what's the air filter on the left?


The Toaster is a Talos, the Kettle is Talos / Cronos.
It was born of a conversation about Haemonculi and I just ran with it.

They're ultimately Cardboard on a wire frame, with greenstuff, sprue and bits.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:46:03


Post by: kronk


So those are meant to be these:



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:55:13


Post by: Ovion


 kronk wrote:
So those are meant to be these:



Yup. Though at the time I built them, that model hadn't been released yet. (It was some months after they were finished it was released) and the only thing available was this:

(The horrific metal model where everything falls off repeatedly)

The conversation was, that you can convert effectively anything for a DE army (and to some degree, any army) and say 'Haemonculi did it'. Someone said 'how about a toaster', and then the Toastalos was born. People then bugged me to do a kettle.

They're actually pretty much the same size as the new model too


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:58:55


Post by: nkelsch


 kronk wrote:
So those are meant to be these:



And 'those' don't match WYSIWYG as we can't tell what they are, and don't pass rule of cool. I can paint a paintpot silver and glue toothpicks legs and a powerklaw to it, it doesn't make it a Killer Kan. Now I can take a Paintpot, Do extensive detail work and sculpting out of cheap materials, add rivets to it everywhere and give it a best effort paintjob and then it may be cool enough to be a Killer Kan.

Those are not cool and not WYSIWYG.

And if they were made during the old talos days, they don't match that model at all. 'Haemonculi did it'. is insulting excuse to make models look like trash. That is what Tzzentch and ork players and even nurgle players can say too, it doesn't make it valid to put a dogturd down for a nurgle model or a pile of garbage for an ork model.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 14:59:02


Post by: Ascalam


I'm easy, when it comes to models.

It comes of having been in this game from the beginning, when there were only about three (fugly!) vehicles, and you had to convert (or kill) your own if you wanted more.

GW used to actively encourage conversion and scratchbuilds. The now-infamous deodorant bottle skimmer is a case in point. The old vehicle charts allowed you to come up with vehicles from lists, and then follow the rules based on those.

Good times.

Even more recently scratchbuilding is a neccessity. Wasn't so long ago that SM didn't have a drop-pod model, for example.

Nids STILL don't. They went years before T-Fex and Tervigon models were available, so a lot of scratchbuilds and conversions there. Several other models are still missing from that range. Orks went forever without a Battlewagon model (unless you count the Armorcast? one), so most were converted. The Talos and Cronos waited a bit for the models too, so many of those were kitbashed or scratchbuilt before the new kits hit the shelves.


I would happily play against the OP's vehicles, if they were to the appropriate scale. As long as i know what a model's supposed to be, and it's not glaringly abusive i'm good.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:01:25


Post by: Eilif


Ovion wrote:My only 2 issues with the OPs are that
A: They should be painted, undercoating the entire thing will seal it properly, and it'll look a lot classier painted (assuming you actually made the details with 2-3 layers of card and it's not just printed on.)
B: Some of the guns need a bit more work / some things need aligning better.

It's good so far though. ,,,

,,,,You say you might as well buy the GW model, but for £5-10 worth of plasticard you'd be able to make the Land Raider, and a lil more resilient than the card.

That said, these are made from Cardboard:

(I do intend to go back and go over some edges with milliput now though)


It's hard to find a way to say this nicely, but the OP models are far better than the creations you show above. Despite the tank being made of card and having printed details, they have the same size, design and lines as a kit Land Raider and it is immediately apparent what the model is. Unfortunately, the same can not be said for your scratchbuilds.

kronk wrote:So those are meant to be these:



I'm not seeing it either. If you hadn't told me what they were, I wouldn't have known.

One of the most common tests for most folks acceptance of a scracthbuild, proxy or counts-as is usually some variation of
"Can I tell right away what it is supposed to represent?"
I'm afraid that looking at the pictures of the models you provided they just aren't there yet and most folks wouldn't be able to tell what they are when put on the board.

All that said, I encourage you to keep honing your scratchbuilding and converting skills as it can be a very fulfilling part of the hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ovion wrote:
 kronk wrote:
So those are meant to be these:

Spoiler:


Yup....
....The conversation was, that you can convert effectively anything for a DE army (and to some degree, any army) and say 'Haemonculi did it'. Someone said 'how about a toaster', and then the Toastalos was born. People then bugged me to do a kettle.


So it's a joke!
I can appreciate the humor and it's something funny to show your gaming group.

I just don't think most folks (myself included) will take it seriously as a gaming model. Outside of your own circle of friends, it becomes one of the object lessons that folks will use as what not to do for a scratchbuild.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:17:23


Post by: Ovion


Possibly not the best photos ever - for the record, they are WYSIWIG (as best as could be when they were made, for Cronos and Talos), and most people have said they're well made, assuming them to be plasticard and that I put a lot more effort in to them than I did (It was still a few days work, but not as much as people guessed). (That. and/or photos are generally harsher than the naked eye).
They've also withstood a LOT of punishment (treated them no differently to the regular plastics and they've held up with not 1 break, apart from the 'tail' getting knocked off the base once.)

And the staff at my local GW + the guy that was taking photos for white dwarf in our store thought they were good.

Though yes, it's primarily for humour, it's also enough GW product to be allowed in any place GW stuff is sold.

Obviously, it's not going to be to everyones taste, but I've had people ask me to make them one (for Daemons primarily).


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:17:25


Post by: warboss


As long as some clear effort was made to convert the vehicles to 40k use, I'm fine with scratch builds that closely match the dimensions of the official current model. Want to use a nice papercraft rhino made from a dozen templates and printed out in color to simulate a paint model? Sure, go ahead. You want to use that Kleenex Tissue box over there as a necron monolith? I hope it's not empty because you may cry when I tell you no. If it looks cool and you put some time into it, no worries.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:18:02


Post by: angel of ecstasy


nkelsch wrote:
And 'those' don't match WYSIWYG as we can't tell what they are, and don't pass rule of cool.

No, they do not match WYSIWYG, but as long as I'm informed beforehand what they're geared out with I'm fine with it. It's not like you can tell the difference between the Talos weapon options anyway.

But yes, they do follow the rule of cool. They're not built to look like an actual Talos/Cronos. They're built to be cool and funny. And they are.

So good work!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:51:06


Post by: Trondheim


Back to your mudhut and come back when you can afford the real deal is my stand at this question. Such things as this is what me makes me loath some players. So yes, label me hostile towards things like this


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:51:28


Post by: brettz123


 Ovion wrote:

(I do intend to go back and go over some edges with milliput now though)


I would have no problem playing against the OP and his paper models but these above are exactly what I don't like about scratch built models. They don't look good and don't really look like what they are supposed to be.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 15:52:37


Post by: kronk


brettz123 wrote:
 Ovion wrote:

Spoiler:




I would have no problem playing against the OP and his paper models but these above are exactly what I don't like about scratch built models. They don't look good and don't really look like what they are supposed to be.


100% agreement.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 16:06:49


Post by: Mad4Minis


 angel of ecstasy wrote:
 Forbino wrote:
its a luxury and if you can't afford it you shouldn't do it.

Elitist much? It's a hobby, and if you're inventive and crafty enough to pull something like this off you most certainly should do it.


Hey now, thats gonna be GWs next ad campaign.

"Sure you can get games with better rules, and games with better miniatures, and games with both...but ours are the most expensive, and that makes ours better."


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 16:18:04


Post by: MetalOxide


brettz123 wrote:
 Ovion wrote:

(I do intend to go back and go over some edges with milliput now though)


I would have no problem playing against the OP and his paper models but these above are exactly what I don't like about scratch built models. They don't look good and don't really look like what they are supposed to be.


A bit harsh. Not everyone is going to have top painting/modelling skills. The hobby is about creativity, if you don't like it then that's tough. Personally I'd have no problem playing against a toaster-monster


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 17:33:33


Post by: brettz123


 MetalOxide wrote:
brettz123 wrote:

I would have no problem playing against the OP and his paper models but these above are exactly what I don't like about scratch built models. They don't look good and don't really look like what they are supposed to be.


A bit harsh. Not everyone is going to have top painting/modelling skills. The hobby is about creativity, if you don't like it then that's tough. Personally I'd have no problem playing against a toaster-monster


Personally I do not consider my comments harsh at all. I see them as honest compared to other people pretending this looks like some kind of good work. Certainly opinions can differ but the toastlos above is not a good conversion job / scratch build. Why should we pretend it is?

I refuse to pretend that a midget toaster and 3 minutes rolling green stuff sausage qualifies as something anyone really wants to see on the tabletop . Of course I have been wrong before


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 18:06:16


Post by: angel of ecstasy


brettz123 wrote:
Personally I do not consider my comments harsh at all. I see them as honest compared to other people pretending this looks like some kind of good work. Certainly opinions can differ but the toastlos above is not a good conversion job / scratch build. Why should we pretend it is?

I refuse to pretend that a midget toaster and 3 minutes rolling green stuff sausage qualifies as something anyone really wants to see on the tabletop . Of course I have been wrong before

No one is asking anyone to pretend anything. But since we're onto making definite statements about subjective things I'll join in. People who don't like the toaster and the jug have no sense of humour.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 18:17:20


Post by: brettz123


 angel of ecstasy wrote:
brettz123 wrote:
Personally I do not consider my comments harsh at all. I see them as honest compared to other people pretending this looks like some kind of good work. Certainly opinions can differ but the toastlos above is not a good conversion job / scratch build. Why should we pretend it is?

I refuse to pretend that a midget toaster and 3 minutes rolling green stuff sausage qualifies as something anyone really wants to see on the tabletop . Of course I have been wrong before

No one is asking anyone to pretend anything. But since we're onto making definite statements about subjective things I'll join in. People who don't like the toaster and the jug have no sense of humour.


Funny and good quality are two different things. I find it funny but I still wouldn't want to play against it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 18:18:23


Post by: skycapt44


 angel of ecstasy wrote:
 skycapt44 wrote:
I'm all for the custom works but am often puzzled as to why people go to such great lengths to build out of paper and the like. I mean yes it can look great but takes hours upon hours to model. A previous poster mentioned a tank taking 16 hours to create. Even working at a minimum wage job say McDicks you would easily pull in $100+ in 16 hours of work. Maybe it's just me and I guess there are those who don't have jobs so this wouldn't apply. But to those folks who have jobs I don't see the point (unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building) of building models out of paper when you can easily buy second hand chimeras/rhinos for about $20...and they are durable, official and simple to strip if needed.

Am I missing something?

No, you aren't missing something. It's right there in your post.
(unless you absolutely love doing it and you get a joy from paper building)

For some people (not for everyone, but for some) this is a hobby and not just "The Games Workshop Hobby".


That was my point. Doing as a hobby great doing it thinking you are saving money...hardly.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 18:38:57


Post by: kcwm


If you like scratch-built stuff, you should check out scratchbuilt40k.blogspot.com. It's done by a guy that posts on a forum I'm a member of and that listens to our podcast. I'm pretty sure he goes by Krisken here on this site. He has guides for making a Rhino, older Land Raider, and a Chaos Dreadclaw, which all look excellent!

I, for one, would play against most scratch built 40k models. I'm iffy on the Forge World stuff, as I'm against playing against proxied FW models, simply due to the advantage they grant (dreadnought drop pod, for one).

The OP stuff is clear as to what it is supposed to be. The toaster and kettle builds above? No thank you. It took time to make, but calling it "made from mostly GW stuff" is, at best, a stretch.

They might be ugly, but I'd also gladly play a friendly game against the Sprucrons I've seem floating around because that's just funny.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 19:59:28


Post by: Ovion


 kcwm wrote:
The toaster and kettle builds above? No thank you. It took time to make, but calling it "made from mostly GW stuff" is, at best, a stretch.


It is at least 60% Games Workshop product, between the base, internal framework, bits and GS. Infact the only part on each that [i]isn't[i] sold in GW, is the card and the wire connecting the tail to the weapons plug. (Helps that they're hollow)
The specification to use it in GW was over 50% GW product, and that's what it is.

That said, I have been debating rebuilding them in plasticard and milliput, with the 'proper' weapons now I'm older and wiser (these are quite old now at least 2 years I think), and retiring these ones to the shelf (apart from apoc games where more Talos is good.)
Maybe in the new year.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 20:28:24


Post by: ProtoClone


As long as it looks nice, I am fine with it.

I would also accept a humorously themed Ork army where the vehicles were cardboard cutouts on rollers with Orks pushing them and pointing guns out the holes where the cannons are so they look like the real ones.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 21:05:28


Post by: xxvaderxx


 -Loki- wrote:
I hate papercraft vehicles for the most part. I understand gaming on a budget - I did it extensively during 3rd edition. In fact, all of 3rd edition. My army stayed pretty much the same for the whole edition, due to me being a student.

I never resorted to papercrafting stuff. It rarely ends up looking like it should. Reasonably close, sure, but you can still tell, simply at a glance, that you're playing against a cardboard land raider.

My brother does it extensively, and it annoys the crap out of me. I've seen him turn up to an Apocalypse game with 4 papercraft Baneblades, then brag about how easily he won. It's just not something I'll ever support.


Glad to know the principle you stand on is that you had to win because you paid more, and not because you played better.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 21:31:28


Post by: Grimtuff


xxvaderxx wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
I hate papercraft vehicles for the most part. I understand gaming on a budget - I did it extensively during 3rd edition. In fact, all of 3rd edition. My army stayed pretty much the same for the whole edition, due to me being a student.

I never resorted to papercrafting stuff. It rarely ends up looking like it should. Reasonably close, sure, but you can still tell, simply at a glance, that you're playing against a cardboard land raider.

My brother does it extensively, and it annoys the crap out of me. I've seen him turn up to an Apocalypse game with 4 papercraft Baneblades, then brag about how easily he won. It's just not something I'll ever support.


Glad to know the principle you stand on is that you had to win because you paid more, and not because you played better.


Obvious point missed was obvious.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 22:14:12


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Grimtuff wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
I hate papercraft vehicles for the most part. I understand gaming on a budget - I did it extensively during 3rd edition. In fact, all of 3rd edition. My army stayed pretty much the same for the whole edition, due to me being a student.

I never resorted to papercrafting stuff. It rarely ends up looking like it should. Reasonably close, sure, but you can still tell, simply at a glance, that you're playing against a cardboard land raider.

My brother does it extensively, and it annoys the crap out of me. I've seen him turn up to an Apocalypse game with 4 papercraft Baneblades, then brag about how easily he won. It's just not something I'll ever support.


Glad to know the principle you stand on is that you had to win because you paid more, and not because you played better.


Obvious point missed was obvious.


Excuse me, i you are telling me that the OP land raider does not look the part or is not close enough, we have to dissagree, the quoted party is bottom line complaining because he got beat by paper tanks, if he got beat by something like the OP, and complains about it, then he is actually complaining about loosing even though he put more money on it. We are not talking cocke cans dropp pods here, those tanks are fairly well executed.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 22:27:15


Post by: Grimtuff


xxvaderxx wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
I hate papercraft vehicles for the most part. I understand gaming on a budget - I did it extensively during 3rd edition. In fact, all of 3rd edition. My army stayed pretty much the same for the whole edition, due to me being a student.

I never resorted to papercrafting stuff. It rarely ends up looking like it should. Reasonably close, sure, but you can still tell, simply at a glance, that you're playing against a cardboard land raider.

My brother does it extensively, and it annoys the crap out of me. I've seen him turn up to an Apocalypse game with 4 papercraft Baneblades, then brag about how easily he won. It's just not something I'll ever support.


Glad to know the principle you stand on is that you had to win because you paid more, and not because you played better.


Obvious point missed was obvious.


Excuse me, i you are telling me that the OP land raider does not look the part or is not close enough, we have to dissagree, the quoted party is bottom line complaining because he got beat by paper tanks, if he got beat by something like the OP, and complains about it, then he is actually complaining about loosing even though he put more money on it. We are not talking cocke cans dropp pods here, those tanks are fairly well executed.


Yes, I think paper models look crap. There I said it. They're not my cup of tea. Whilst I won't berate anyone for using them, I personally think every single one looks terrible.

As for the Apoc thing. For a lot of people Apocalypse is all about the grandeur of seeing two humungously massive fully painted armies go at it. To turn up with 4 Baneblades made from Cornflake boxes just cheapens the whole experience for some people. Add in the fact 4 Baneblades are somewhat powerful, so having someone knock up 4 of them to get a cheap win just feels... cheap to some people.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 22:28:51


Post by: The Dwarf Wolf


Kill me... this discussion again?

Your papercraft look awesome, you should be proud of it.

Scratchbuild is not the problem, the problem is lazy scratchbuild for cheap alternatives.

I could just search the internet for examples on booth cases, but we all know the diferences. That is the same for "count as", and such things. There is no rule but the "cool" one.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 22:37:19


Post by: xxvaderxx


 Grimtuff wrote:

Add in the fact 4 Baneblades are somewhat powerful, so having someone knock up 4 of them to get a cheap win just feels... cheap to some people.


So again it revolves around you paying more. To me If they look the part, they can play the part, the OP ones certainly do, the other black toster ones certainly dont and i dont imagine they he is going for an alternative look (like Rackham wolves instead of circle ouboros).

You can certainly do what you want, but come clean with why, you feel you dropping more money on it entitles you to a win, so be it, on those basis you will judge wether or not engage another player and be judged as well.

I do lots of homebrew, some for economic reasons (i will not pay GWs prices for a rinho, being a mold is fairly simple to make and it would cost a few cents of resin to get a carbon copy of the tank), some for practical reasons (i simply dont want to be bother with painting all the crap over the fantasy state troop minis, so i filed a few and made molds) and some for esthetic reasons the new fantasy demigriph riders are plain ugly.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 22:44:58


Post by: Grimtuff


xxvaderxx wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:

Add in the fact 4 Baneblades are somewhat powerful, so having someone knock up 4 of them to get a cheap win just feels... cheap to some people.


So again it revolves around you paying more. To me If they look the part, they can play the part, the OP ones certainly do, the other black toster ones certainly dont and i dont imagine they he is going for an alternative look (like Rackham wolves instead of circle ouboros).


Not at all.

I scratchbuild all the time. I make my own terrain. However I set certain standards for their appearance to mask their origins. Paper models are line line that is crossed IMO as in my experience there is a certain type of gamer that makes them (usually of the TFG variety). Although this is not always the case, in a venn diagram the crossover will be pretty large for people who use paper models and TFG.

It's all art. And this is an artform I dislike with a passion. Nothing more.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/13 23:53:25


Post by: AegisGrimm


I'm so tired of the elitism seeping out of this thread.


New Scenery Rule:

Scratch-built scenery must be made from the list of approved "professional grade" modelling materials, or it's considered garbage, no matter what it looks like or how much time you spent making it. Terrain made from materials not on the list, (or not bought directly from GW if the option is available) cannot be used on the tabletop, and you hereby accept the fact that "real" 40K gamers will savagely insult you - with good reason, because you didn't do it like them.

(You can also no longer use the Aegis Defense line or Bastion that you scratch-built to fit the racial theme your army, because there are already models for those that you can buy directly from GW. Get a job so you have money, you.....modeller.)

Old player rule:

You can't use stories from the "old days" to justify the fact that you didn't buy the available off the shelf model, you...old person. Only the here and now counts, not experiences from like, a whole decade ago.

For all seriousness, the stock photo for the papercraft model I use for my Imperial Bunker (notice the lack of piles of dead Cadians):





How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 00:34:04


Post by: Sephyr


I used to be cool with scrtachbuilt and papercraft armies until meeting one of TFGs who basically used his printer to always have the cheesiest army possible.

GKs are on top? AoBR termis proxying as Paladins, lots of paper chimeras.

IG are looking sweet? Plenty of paper Vendettas, more chimeras and LRBTs, the work. Last I heard he was also working on some paper Night Scythes just to be safe.

So yeah, call me bitter, but after spending a fair bit of $$ and time to have my army all assembled and fully painted on the table, I do avoid players if I feel they are taking too much of a shortcut to get their geek victory rush.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 00:43:22


Post by: AegisGrimm


Well, yeah, but that can"t be used to paint that entire facet of the hobby with a bad light. A rich guy with a disposable income could do the same thing with actual GW models that he could pay someone else to paint, if they are painted at all. In fact, half of the posts on this thread seem to be claiming that if the rich guy wins, his victory is "more legitimate" because he spent "good money" and bought the actual models!

A jerk move is a jerk move.

I can't believe the amount of people basically claiming that if their opponent's stuff isn't up to their personal standards, they will loudly and firmly use that as a reason not to "waste their time" playing them, to the point of calling player's stuff crap right to their face like they are some sort of higher class toy soldier gamer. That just might be taking this hobby too seriously.

There is a big difference between scratch-build models, whatever the material, that are well built and realized, and soda-can drop pods with 2-D paper troops made from images printed off the GW site. I have papercraft models that took more time and effort to get to the tabletop than some gamer's actual models, and I made them merely because I liked the challenge of making them.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 00:48:53


Post by: Florintine Mallorean


From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 03:01:27


Post by: chromedog


I just stopped PLAYING 40k as the elitism amongst the local clowns here clogged my BS filters.

The figures can be used for other games (I loudly proclaim that I have used my 40k to play Stargrunt, and I will use them to play Tomorrow's War, or any other set of rules I choose that fits them), so I will keep them.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 03:35:28


Post by: Kaldor


Most scratchbuilds look like crap. Some are great.

There's no reason to buoy people's emotions by telling them their crap, looks great. The sense of entitlement of some of the scratch-build is at least as off-putting as the elitism in this thread. "I built it, so it's just as good as a real model, and you're not allowed to think otherwise!"


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 04:05:07


Post by: Jehan-reznor


The only one i built was the baneblade papercraft featured in the white dwarf a long,long,long time ago!
Now living in Japan , i just look out for strange stuff to use for my army.

for example Sakura taisen robot used as retro dreadnought


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 04:15:11


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Y'know, that actually looks pretty cool.

Papercraft is fine for me as long as it's not done to a huge extent. Scratch-built is also fine for me.

After all, this is a game!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 14:55:32


Post by: Eilif


Kaldor wrote:Most scratchbuilds look like crap. Some are great.

There's no reason to buoy people's emotions by telling them their crap, looks great. The sense of entitlement of some of the scratch-build is at least as off-putting as the elitism in this thread. "I built it, so it's just as good as a real model, and you're not allowed to think otherwise!"


Well said. Some folks might get their feelings hurt a bit, but in a scale modelers club no one is going to say something looks great unless it does, so why should be different here?

Now clearly the standards for wargaming models are less than in scale modeling (our standards and uses are different), and I think we can be a bit more sensitive than simply calling it "crap", but we should refuse to say something looks good if we don't think it does.

Jehan-reznor wrote:The only one i built was the baneblade papercraft featured in the white dwarf a long,long,long time ago!
Now living in Japan , i just look out for strange stuff to use for my army.

for example Sakura taisen robot used as retro dreadnought
Spoiler:


Looks very nice, but I think that's an "alternate model" and different thing than the papercraft models the OP is talking about. One of the problems with a thread like this is that it can mix up what are a few different issues regarding people's feelings about...

-Papercraft models. Models made entirely -or nearly entirely- out of paper. All but the very best of these are immediately recognizable as papercraft.

-Traditional scratchbuild. In modeler circles "Scratchbuild" usually refers to models made of materials other than -or in addition to- paper and card to the point where it's not immidiately aparent what materials were used.

-Proxy models. A unit used to represent something it is not.

-Alternate models. A subset of Proxy where an alternate model of similar dimensions and armament is used in place of the existing GW kit.

Given the examples the OP presented, (which I happen to like) a much better title for this topic would have been
"How do you feel about Papercraft vehicles"


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 17:44:31


Post by: xxvaderxx


Let me put it another way, let say he makes resin molds of say baneblades or what ever other broken FW model you can imagine and he brings say 4, 5 or what ever is too cheasy to your taste and they cost him about $15 of resin to produce being them a carbon copy of the original, would you still have an issue with that?.

If your answer is yes, then you are not offended by his models but by the fact that you did not win even thou you payed more for it. Its up to every one in particular, but the wallet argument does not pull much weight where i come from.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 17:48:34


Post by: MetalOxide


 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS


I agree, I miss the old days of scratch built terrain and gaming boards at my local Games-workshop; they sold all the scratch made boards (such as a lava one and nid one) and replaced them with those awful GW gaming boards.

Also quite a chunk of the 40k players have this stuck up elitism about paper models, scratch-builds and miniatures from other companies.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 18:31:51


Post by: Eilif


xxvaderxx wrote:
Let me put it another way, let say he makes resin molds of say baneblades or what ever other broken FW model you can imagine and he brings say 4, 5 or what ever is too cheasy to your taste and they cost him about $15 of resin to produce being them a carbon copy of the original, would you still have an issue with that?.

If your answer is yes, then you are not offended by his models but by the fact that you did not win even thou you payed more for it. Its up to every one in particular, but the wallet argument does not pull much weight where i come from.


If someone takes offense to this, the issue is probably not the cost, but rather with.. blatant Recasting!

I realize this is a whole other can-o-worms regarding personal casting-but-not-selling, IP, cost etc, (subjects for another thread) but my point is if you're trying to show definitive bias toward "paid-for-models" this is a really bad example.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 18:43:55


Post by: rigeld2


 Florintine Mallorean wrote:

1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

Don't forget:
4. Must be painted to a minimum 3 color standard, preferably well above that.
5. Can't use dips - that'd be a cheating shortcut.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 18:58:18


Post by: xxvaderxx


Eilif wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Let me put it another way, let say he makes resin molds of say baneblades or what ever other broken FW model you can imagine and he brings say 4, 5 or what ever is too cheasy to your taste and they cost him about $15 of resin to produce being them a carbon copy of the original, would you still have an issue with that?.

If your answer is yes, then you are not offended by his models but by the fact that you did not win even thou you payed more for it. Its up to every one in particular, but the wallet argument does not pull much weight where i come from.


If someone takes offense to this, the issue is probably not the cost, but rather with.. blatant Recasting!

I realize this is a whole other can-o-worms regarding personal casting-but-not-selling, IP, cost etc, (subjects for another thread) but my point is if you're trying to show definitive bias toward "paid-for-models" this is a really bad example.


No it is not, recasting for personal use is perfectly legal, i said nothing about selling the models. But your comment does show where you lean towards in regard to my question.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 20:26:55


Post by: treslibras


I am playing for the fun of playing.

Obviously, I like a well painted army and visually pleasing vehicles more than a bunch of black-primed infantry and some poor paper-glue-mess of vehicles. The more the better. That's an extra pleasure, and is important to me.

But the personality of my gaming partner is much more important than that!

Whether someone can paint or not, whether he has all the right weapons/shoulder pads/other frikking details right on his SM (with lots of Pre-Heresy gak just made up for you to pump more money into overpriced and gakky-cast resin parts), or whether his Rhino is made from plastics or paper, is really only a question of aesthetics to me.

I'd rather support non-paid items now, to ensure that the right people stay in the hobby (and eventually will cash out more, once they have some money), then kick some nice guys (or girls) out of the hobby and be stuck with the sociopathic, rule and/or details nazis who can pump out money galore but are essentially poor donkey-caves with no life to speak of.

I know, it's an unfair simplification, there are lots of nice players with money. But I want to make a point about what to chose when in doubt or stuck between two "evils".


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 21:03:44


Post by: Eilif


xxvaderxx wrote:
Eilif wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:
Let me put it another way, let say he makes resin molds of say baneblades or what ever other broken FW model you can imagine and he brings say 4, 5 or what ever is too cheasy to your taste and they cost him about $15 of resin to produce being them a carbon copy of the original, would you still have an issue with that?.

If your answer is yes, then you are not offended by his models but by the fact that you did not win even thou you payed more for it. Its up to every one in particular, but the wallet argument does not pull much weight where i come from.


If someone takes offense to this, the issue is probably not the cost, but rather with.. blatant Recasting!

I realize this is a whole other can-o-worms regarding personal casting-but-not-selling, IP, cost etc, (subjects for another thread) but my point is if you're trying to show definitive bias toward "paid-for-models" this is a really bad example.


No it is not, recasting for personal use is perfectly legal, i said nothing about selling the models. But your comment does show where you lean towards in regard to my question.


Yes it is a bad example. You posited that if someone doesn't like personal recasts of a model than it proves that they are more concerned with how much somethign costs than how much it looks like a unit.

It's a bad example because there is another reason -in this case objections to recasts- that have nothing to do with cost and have to do with the legality of recasting.

I see what you're trying to do, but you need a better "test". A better question would have been.

"Do you object to a plasticard-built model that has the same dimensions and level of detail as a baneblade, and is nearly identical but costs 1/4 of a kit banelbade"

That's an question that by eliminating objections regarding appearance and legality does a better job of limiting the possible objections to cost alone.

Also, recasting for personal use is not always legal, but where illegal is rarely enforced.

xxvaderxx wrote:
. But your comment does show where you lean towards in regard to my question.


Incorrect deduction again my friend, I didn't address your question because I didn't agree with the premise or the example.

Rather than making an assumption based on my disagreement with your flawed example, to see where I stand in regards to the question of offense regarding cheap models, please refer to my previous posts where I say:

"...the examples the OP presented, (which I happen to like)..."

"Nice job on the tanks! The don't look as nice IMHO, as the "real thing" but are nicely executed, well colored, clearly represent alot of effort and talent and more than meet what I would consider standards for a gaming model.

I'm firmly in the if it looks good then I'll play it, and I also play with second party figures. "


" I'd much rather play against the vehicles pictured in this thread than any kit, conversion, or plastic scratchbuild that shows up on the table unpainted or unfinished. "

In refference to the toaster DE card models and a following comment:

"Now clearly the standards for wargaming models are less than in scale modeling (our standards and uses are different), and I think we can be a bit more sensitive than simply calling it "crap", but we should refuse to say something looks good if we don't think it does. "

My acceptance of scratchbuilds, proxies, alternate models and card models is entirely about execution (and possibly legality of recasting), not the amount of cash spent.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/14 22:39:25


Post by: AegisGrimm


My acceptance of scratchbuilds, proxies, alternate models and card models is entirely about execution (and possibly legality of recasting), not the amount of cash spent.


My stance completely. I am in this hobby to share what I think is cool with others, not snub them from my moral high ground. In my opinion, a well-built papercraft Landraider that the owner is proud of is light years ahead of a assembled and bare plastic one, but I'll bet I can guess which hits the table a hundred times more often and is seen as much more legitimate, which is a sad state of the hobby.


Most scratchbuilds look like crap. Some are great.

There's no reason to buoy people's emotions by telling them their crap, looks great. The sense of entitlement of some of the scratch-build is at least as off-putting as the elitism in this thread. "I built it, so it's just as good as a real model, and you're not allowed to think otherwise!"


Really? I usually see such situations more as "I built it, and I am proud of it because it's my best effort so I'd like to use it, but for some reason some guy i don;t even know is taking it upon himself to call my stuff "crap" simply because they think they can do better/are a more elite class of player and feel entitled to speak up."

Usually calling out a person on all the faults of something, especially when being blatant and possibly insulting, falls within the realm of "say something constructive or not at all".

It's far easier to be laid back and just have fun being creative.




How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/19 15:58:56


Post by: Terrinecold


 Enzephalon wrote:
Depends on the look. If it's valid like yours, I'd play a game with you.
I have to ask you though, since you are spending much time and effort. Why don't you use plasticcard?
It's easy to work with, far more resilient than paper and it can be painted with acrylics.

I know I do it (make paper models) for the same reason anybody does modeling. Because I enjoy it. It is a hobby after all!

Attached 2 finished dreadnought and one in progress. Also papercraft can be painted with acrylics the last 2 dreads attached are painted that way.
Finally if you can be bothered to follow the 3 links bellow they point to some 360 views of stormtalon and stormraven made in a similar way.

http://arqspin.com/s/369t3u0m992qt
http://www.bcerrina.com/stormtalon_spin2/config-storm2.html
http://arqspin.com/s/ymumyi80hgnt

For now I haven't played with them but I am definitely hoping that they'll be accepted if when I bring them to my club. The reason I haven't used them is that right now I don't have an army just a few models in different chapter colours and also that I mostly play warmachine.

[Thumb - IMG_1049.jpg]
[Thumb - IMG_1097.jpg]
[Thumb - IMG_1207.jpg]
[Thumb - IMG_1206.jpg]


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/19 16:14:40


Post by: nkelsch


xxvaderxx wrote:

No it is not, recasting for personal use is perfectly legal, i said nothing about selling the models. But your comment does show where you lean towards in regard to my question.


No it is not. People have wrong ideas on what 'personal use' actualy means. Casting an item to 'have more of it' is not personal/fair use in US, UK, Europe or Aus.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/23 22:44:28


Post by: Squigsquasher


Hmm. It's a tricky one. I kinda think papercraft models are cool, but I wouldn't play against them. It's a bit of a "Dude, I'm legitimately buying and building the official models using my own hard earned cash, and you're showing up with 5 Land Raider Redeemers because you printed off templates from a website? That isn't fair!".

Plasticard scratch builds of things like Thunderhawk variants or Titans are always awesome (although if they're using it as a means to cheaply field absurd amounts of very expensive powerful units then it isn't so cool) and scratch built terrain is great too. However, I do think it is unfair if I show up to an Apocalypse game with my modest collection of Tyranids, including 2 Hierodules and a Hierophant (for the record, I do not have anywhere near a large enough collection to play Apocalypse, barely any models are even finished) that I bought, assembled and painted myself, and my opponent comes with 3 Thunderhawks, 6 Baneblades and 9 Land Raider Achilles that he printed off some website, hastily folded and glued together into the rough semblance of the original models and then proceeds to table me with £0.50 worth of poorly folded inked paper, especially if he then accuses me of being a "snob" and "discriminating against people with less money" because he's too tight to buy the real thing and too lazy to make decent stand ins.

Also, let's face it, for every incredible plasticard construction or wonderful papercraft approximation there will be at least 15 toys with random vehicle parts, shards of plactic sheet and Lego bricks, or poorly folded paper cubes with the word "Baneblade" doodled on the side.

For example, my mate InquisitorVaron once attended a game where someone had brought a Tzeentch Daemon army. What they had done was greenstuff loads of balls which were then badly painted to look like multicoloured eyes. These represented Horrors. He had also made "Tongues of Tzeentch" by rolling out strips of greenstuff and painting them badly. His Lord of Change? An enormous greenstuff ball, painted to look like a very big, gakky looking eye. That isn't "inventive" or "cool", it's just someone who can't be bothered to put time or money into his army trying to get a big force quickly with minimal work. I could make loads of milliput blobs and stick all my spare spinefists into them and call them Termagaunts, but I won't because I'm not that cheap or lazy.

And before people launch the "You're an elitist snob who discriminates against people who can't afford to play the game" argument, please grow up. I would love to collect master crafted swords, but I haven't got anywhere near the money, so I don't. If I showed up at a rifle club with a copper pipe filled with gunpowder and a lighter attached to the end, then the other members of the club, who had spent good money on official, decent rifles, would be more than entitled to tell me to get lost. I couldn't argue that "they shouldn't discriminate against me because I don't have the money for a real rifle", I should just either save up and get a rifle or give up. Same with Warhammer 40,000.

Also, a papercraft Reaver would be very very fragile.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/23 22:48:26


Post by: Kilkrazy


What some people do is print the papercraft files and glue them on to plasticard.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 01:12:05


Post by: Bolognesus


nkelsch wrote:
xxvaderxx wrote:

No it is not, recasting for personal use is perfectly legal, i said nothing about selling the models. But your comment does show where you lean towards in regard to my question.


No it is not. People have wrong ideas on what 'personal use' actualy means. Casting an item to 'have more of it' is not personal/fair use in US, UK, Europe or Aus.


Speaking for the Netherlands at least well, it really is. Not sure for the rest of Europe (not my field of expertise to that extent) but I'd be surprised if it wasn't in a fair number of nations.
I'd provide applicable jurisprudence if I hadn't learned to take your for a blatant serial troll, by now


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 02:17:11


Post by: Mannahnin


Let's keep it friendly, folks.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 02:56:05


Post by: mattyrm


Rule of cool for me, I'd be more than happy playing against the vehicles you posted, because they look great.

Less happy against really sucky ones.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 06:55:02


Post by: Dais


I'll play against anything that follows the rules as long as I can tell what it is at a glance.
If you get the inspiration to build something but it doesn't fit the game your playing just build it and build well. Making something cool needs no excuse. Let the creativity flow! it's good for you. If it just happens to fall reasonably close to something you want to play that is a bonus.

Conversely, if you make something for the purpose of being an alternate gaming piece make sure someone doesn't have to ask what it is and what weapons it has every turn. Modeling to gain a gaming or psychological advantage in an insult to every facet of the hobby.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 07:26:30


Post by: Meade


I don't really care what materials are used, so long as the model looks good. For most games that is not a problem unless I am specifically going out of my way to have a themed, narrative game and not a pickup at the FLGS. You could make it out of wax or wood so long as it looks like what it's supposed to look like. How durable it is is not my problem.

There are certainly poorly built, poorly painted plastic models out there and in that case I might even prefer to play against some paper models if they come out of the printer looking better. I feel no need to insist that others pay the same amount of money as me for the hobby. Using paper to make large or powerful models like baneblades... why not? If they look gak then they look gak but if they look okay well then at least I have the opportunity to play against models that I wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to play against, which means more variety and better games for me. Again don't see the problem with it... that seems like more of a problem with cheesy lists and TFG.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 09:15:28


Post by: Peregrine


 AegisGrimm wrote:
In my opinion, a well-built papercraft Landraider that the owner is proud of is light years ahead of a assembled and bare plastic one, but I'll bet I can guess which hits the table a hundred times more often and is seen as much more legitimate, which is a sad state of the hobby.


I don't really see why we can't say that the papercraft model and the bare plastic model are BOTH awful. I don't want to play against either of those options. I probably will play in the end since insisting on nicely painted armies only would mean that I never have any opponents to play, but I'm not really going to enjoy having either of those on the table.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Also, let's face it, for every incredible plasticard construction or wonderful papercraft approximation there will be at least 15 toys with random vehicle parts, shards of plactic sheet and Lego bricks, or poorly folded paper cubes with the word "Baneblade" doodled on the side.


This. It's depressing how often I've seen "scratchbuilds" that were really just people being too cheap to buy the real model and gluing some spare 40k parts on a $5 toy from walmart. And then bragging about how much money they saved over buying that expensive FW model.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 09:29:47


Post by: TheContortionist


what if my scratch builds cost waaaayymore than the actual models to make? Have fun. I would LOVE to play against these tanks.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 09:39:18


Post by: Peregrine


 TheContortionist wrote:
what if my scratch builds cost waaaayymore than the actual models to make?


Then you're the rare exception. Scratchbuilding is fine when the quality of the end result is at least as good as the "real" model and you're doing it to create a unique work of art. It's only a problem when you're putting cheap garbage on the table because you're too lazy and/or cheap to buy/build a proper model. It's just unfortunate that the cheap/lazy people far outnumber the few people who make legitimate scratchbuilds.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 13:27:26


Post by: lord_blackfang


I largely agree. Of the models shown in this thread, the plasticard Crassius and the Sakura taisen dreadnought are pretty cool.

The cardboard models shown are all badly done (in my poor college student years I had a cardboard Rhino and Chimera that nobody in my gaming group could identify as not being official models until picked up) and the Talos are an absolute disgrace to the hobby. I'd seriously rather face a printed 2D picture of the model than some box with GW bitz glued to it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 14:41:35


Post by: Mannahnin


 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS


You are aware that the poll currently stands at 89% okay with scratchbuilds, right?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 14:47:11


Post by: nkelsch


 Mannahnin wrote:
 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS


You are aware that the poll currently stands at 89% okay with scratchbuilds, right?


Yeah, besides the poll being horribly generic, the issue isn't with scratchbuilds. The issue is with 'bad' scratchbuilds.

'Rule of Cool' is a fickle mistress and often people won't find your models as cool as you think they are. I think there is a worlds of difference between unpainted flimsy paper models, unwysiwyg scratchbuilds which look nothing like what they are supposed to represent and painted, sturdy, detailed scratchbuilds faithful to their design and WYSWIYG. The issue is when someone says "if you like one, you must accept all" which isn't true.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 14:54:54


Post by: Mannahnin


I concur. Bad models are bad models, whether scratchbuilt or not. People will usually cut more slack to un- or badly painted/built official models, taking it as a sign that the player is new, inexperienced and unskilled, but hopefully trying.

With scratchbuilds, if it's especially bad and unattractive, you add the factors of it sometimes being even worse looking, and potentially not matching the dimensions of the actual model, which can have an impact on play.

For my personal taste, my tolerance level with scratchbuilds is usually a little lower, as the person is basically asking my indulgence to do something out of the ordinary, and my incentive to allow that is that this gives me the potential to face something different AND nice. If the "nice" factor is not present, than neither is my incentive to be welcoming toward an alternative model.

That said, IME in MOST cases scratchbuilds and substitutions are reasonably creative and attractive, and MOST scratchbuilders/substitutors make a good faith effort to have their models be attractive and the right size/shape/weapon layout (the latter for vehicles). So I'm quite happy to play against them the vast majority of the time.

The exceptions are when I encounter something that looks nasty/is unpainted, AND has clearly been substituted out of laziness and/or cheapness. In those cases I do feel like my goodwill as a player is being exploited, and I'm less inclined to give the person a game or allow the model if I'm organizing a tournament.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 14:55:54


Post by: Howard A Treesong


 lord_blackfang wrote:
The cardboard models shown are all badly done (in my poor college student years I had a cardboard Rhino and Chimera that nobody in my gaming group could identify as not being official models until picked up) and the Talos are an absolute disgrace to the hobby. I'd seriously rather face a printed 2D picture of the model than some box with GW bitz glued to it.


While some people don't like it, is the Talos really an 'absolute disgrace to the hobby'? Seems a bit of an overreaction to a harmless bit of fun. At least it's been modelled to some completion which is more than be said of many unpainted armies.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 14:56:16


Post by: Ovion


 lord_blackfang wrote:
I largely agree. Of the models shown in this thread, the plasticard Crassius and the Sakura taisen dreadnought are pretty cool.

The cardboard models shown are all badly done (in my poor college student years I had a cardboard Rhino and Chimera that nobody in my gaming group could identify as not being official models until picked up) and the Talos are an absolute disgrace to the hobby. I'd seriously rather face a printed 2D picture of the model than some box with GW bitz glued to it.


For the record, it's not 'just a cardboard box with bitz stuck on'.
It has a solid frame made of sprue and wire, which most of the bits are actually attached to, there's numerous details layered and sculpted on with Greenstuff (there's a set of grabby tentacles under the toaster for example, and a wall if the dead painted inside its slots), furthermore it's Wysiwyg (as far as good be when it was built), both are incredibly resilient taking a LOT of abuse, the local GW staff haven't had an issue with them (it was even staff that encouraged me to make the kettle) and no one I've played has had a problem with it. Once you say 'they're Talos' it's set.

Yes, I coulda made them better, but they're hardly the worst made, and calling it 'an insult to the hobby', especially when it's for fun is going a bit far I think. :/


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:15:53


Post by: Mannahnin


I would not be happy to see either of those Talos fielded by a random pickup opponent or at a tournament. However, if I were one of the friends in on the original joke which gave the idea, I would undoubtedly like and enjoy them as an expression of the joke and within the context of our friendship.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:18:39


Post by: WaaaaghLord


Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:22:48


Post by: nkelsch


 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.


No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:23:57


Post by: WaaaaghLord


nkelsch wrote:
 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.


No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.


So by this logic, you shouldn't be able to use your scratchbuild in a store that sells the miniatures you're scratchbuilding?

i should point out that I don't agree with this either, and it gets my goat when people rock up with a pile of paper instead of a codex, but I don't see how people are okay with building miniatures out of paper instead of buying them, but not with printing out a codex.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:27:08


Post by: mattyrm


 Mannahnin wrote:
 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS


You are aware that the poll currently stands at 89% okay with scratchbuilds, right?


Better than that.. 8% said they dislike it but wouldn't stop it.. So really, it's actually only 3% would be an issue!

As I said, we remember the bad more than the good, I think it's sad that people sometimes allow the very rare proper douchebag drag them from something they enjoy.

For example, I enjoy wearing ladies underwear, and I have never allowed the occasionally scathing remarks to ruin the pleasure of feeling soft satin knickers with a split in the crotch rubbing against my coarse hairy skin.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:35:20


Post by: nkelsch


 WaaaaghLord wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.


No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.


So by this logic, you shouldn't be able to use your scratchbuild in a store that sells the miniatures you're scratchbuilding?

i should point out that I don't agree with this either, and it gets my goat when people rock up with a pile of paper instead of a codex, but I don't see how people are okay with building miniatures out of paper instead of buying them, but not with printing out a codex.


Well if you came in with a full army of papercraft models and never bought anything in the store, then I would consider you a rude mooch taking space from other paying customers.

Most 'scratchbuilders' still require paint, glue and plasticard/rod and are 'customers' because they spend money with extensive hobby supplies. Buying 30$ of plasticard or a 30$ modelmakes me a customer.

I also feel there are issues with many of the downloaded papercraft designs being illegal, like when people take 3d models from the DoW video game, texture them with video game skins then sell them as 3D models for papercraft. There is a huge difference between people making their own models and downloading a cut-out off the internet.

It is up to store owners to determine what they will 'tolerate' in their store. They should not tolerate illegal PDFs, and 'papercraft' depending on the situation may also not be appropriate in a FLGS and the owner can make decisions on what he wants to allow. Scratchbuilds, being distinctly different from papercraft, are going to be mostly OK as they are different no matter how much people try to make them the same.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:49:56


Post by: WaaaaghLord


I agree with that. As long as you've bought something from the store to build it with, then I think that's okay. It's not scratchbuilding I have an issue with, just scratchbuilding with paper. It's not even a cost thing. I just happen to think that building a miniature out of paper is pretty lame. But, as I've said on many occasions before, everyone is allowed their own opinion. I would never not play a SM army because the Rhino's were built out of paper.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 16:50:09


Post by: mattyrm


I think the toastalos is so bad, it's good.

I'd play against it because it's funny.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 17:28:20


Post by: Sidstyler


rigeld2 wrote:
 Florintine Mallorean wrote:

1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

Don't forget:
4. Must be painted to a minimum 3 color standard, preferably well above that.
5. Can't use dips - that'd be a cheating shortcut.


Speaking of "cheating", apparently if you airbrush your vehicles that counts, too. Everything must be hand-painted!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 19:59:56


Post by: Mannahnin


I think it's better to disregard folks who have antisocial or incompatible views of the hobby to your own, rather than focusing on them too much. Especially when those views are demonstrably a small minority.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 20:13:02


Post by: brettz123


 Ovion wrote:

For the record, it's not 'just a cardboard box with bitz stuck on'.


True it is a kettle with bitz stuck on it...... still horriblly executed.

 Ovion wrote:

furthermore it's Wysiwyg (as far as good be when it was built)


not sure how you consider this anywhere close to Wysiwyg considering you can't tell what they are by looking at it. Bottom line is that it really isn't Wysiwyg.

 Ovion wrote:

Yes, I coulda made them better, but they're hardly the worst made, and calling it 'an insult to the hobby', especially when it's for fun is going a bit far I think. :/


I suppose we agree here I wouldn't consider it an insult to the hobby either. Horribly ugly and done excruciatingly poorly yes but that isn't an insult to the hobby.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 20:29:31


Post by: ArbeitsSchu


GW have been marketing this game to children for several years. Some kids take years to develop a decent standard of model building/painting. They produce 'rubbish', but it would be tight to begrudge them a hobby because of it. No-one who is reasonably nice would tell them to bugger off based on that, so why is it acceptable to tell them to do one because they lack funding?

'If you're too poor you shouldn't play'..ridiculous elitism.

And I like the Toaster. It's amusing. Amusing is also cool.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/24 22:50:04


Post by: Eilif


 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it's better to disregard folks who have antisocial or incompatible views of the hobby to your own, rather than focusing on them too much. Especially when those views are demonstrably a small minority.

I agree with this, though what's "antisocial" is going to vary widely and "the Minority" is often a pretty large group.

Still, I agree with the underlying assmuption that the hobby is big enough for everyone to find opponents who share their views of the hobby.

As I've said before, my prejudice is a disdain for unpainted miniatures. So I started a club with some guys who feel the same way. We play lots of different games with lots of different minis, but you won't find a single unpainted (though we do have some prepainted) miniature on our tables.

We don't apologize for our preferences and we don't force others to do as we do. We simply choose to spend our time gaming with those who are like-minded.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/27 18:54:48


Post by: Yuuichi_Trapspringer


Personally, for me the game is more about the hobby than the actual playing. I love to paint, model and build stuff, it shows that you are really invested in the game.

I too follow the 'rule of cool' when it comes to things on the table. For me, unless it is exceptionally good, I don't find paper cool. I wouldn't refuse the game (Just like I refuse to personally field a model that is unpainted because it bugs me a lot to do so) I wouldn't shove my own opinions onto other players.

I play against friends who have horribly painted armies (and offered to touch them up for them every so often) I play against one guy who has a few scratchbuilt and resin copies of tanks, that bugs me a bit but I don't refuse games.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/30 23:00:56


Post by: Easy E


Heck, I know I wouldn't pay even half the price for a plastic rhino/Leman Russ/Falcon/Devilfish, how can I expect everyone else to?

I actually encourage people to do something against the "established" orthodoxy of 40K! I grew up in an era of Warhammer where even the models in the RT rulebook were just kit-bashed toys. Yeah, I'm looking at you Orgus Flyer!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/30 23:51:58


Post by: Davylove21


I wouldn't stop you, you can't use them in tournies etc. so I'd only facing them in friendly games where I am equally able to field scratchbuilds.

I would be somewhat unhappy deep down though, just because I love the 40K world and scratchbuilds (not always, but often) taint the experience for me.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 03:10:31


Post by: culsandar


The elitism in these kinds of threads always astounds me. And it's usually from people who play with unpainted minis. You (generally speaking) think that just because you paid 70 dollars for your plastic box-shaped toy makes you better than the guy who scratch built a paper box-shaped toy. Truly shameful behavior.

I understand the need for proper models and such in the tournament setting, which I frequent a lot, as precise model sizes, etc. are important. A pick up game at the FLGS? I dont care if you're pushing around kid-sized cereal boxes as tanks. Stop promoting this elitist behavior.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 04:14:44


Post by: Meade


e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.


Considering that anyone with the money or time can have a properly painted, modelled army, I don't see how enjoying a fully painted/modelled game is elitist. Expensive perhaps, but not compared to many other sports and hobbies. I would consider someone elitist if they refused to play 40k with me because I didn't have the appearance of a rich white suburbanite, or went to a certain school, or maybe in the 40k world, they might be elitist if they only played with other tournament winners or painting award winnners or something.

Warhammer 40k really is the opposite of elitism. Nearly anyone can show up with painted army and get accepted, and my local hobby group has a remarkable variety of age, race, background, income, (but perhaps not gender). I would venture to say all those things considered it is the most diverse group I've ever belonged to.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 04:32:25


Post by: kb305


nkelsch wrote:
 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.


No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.


i find it unethical and a boarderline scam how GW expects everyone to constantly rebuy new books all the time.

especially to kids who dont know any better. the update could be two weeks away and the shop probably wouldnt say anything. "hey, you know that codex you just bought last week? it's not valid anymore!"


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 05:39:41


Post by: chromedog


 Easy E wrote:

I actually encourage people to do something against the "established" orthodoxy of 40K! I grew up in an era of Warhammer where even the models in the RT rulebook were just kit-bashed toys. Yeah, I'm looking at you Orgus Flyer!


You ain't the only one Easy E. I too remember those days. When vehicles were kitbashed from whatever else you had around - or vehicle kits from other sources were used (I had a 1/48 "Crusher Joe" Galleon tank used as a 40k tank for a few years before they released an actual predator kit (the 'dalek' so named for its rounded turret).). Besides - I've seen your scratchbuilds and am envious of them.

Coming from that, this modern idea of "ONLY playing X game with X miniatures" is so bizarre as to not be worth contemplating (Historical players don't do it and they've been playing a lot longer than 40k has been around. Even the 15mm WW2 crowd don't restrict themselves to one maker's models, regardless of whether they play FoW or another WW2 game in 15mm).


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 05:42:04


Post by: H.B.M.C.


nkelsch wrote:
I see a distinct difference between your Crassus and the OP's models. Your model is complete, painted and passes rule of cool.


See this doesn't make any damned sense.

The two pics the OP posted have wonderful representations of the actual 40K models. The Crassus doesn't really look like a Crassus (same basic shape) and has a few plastic weapons stuck on. Yet you see the Crassus as 'complete', whereas the others are not?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 05:57:04


Post by: Kaldor


 chromedog wrote:
Historical players don't do it and they've been playing a lot longer than 40k has been around.


So no one would mind me using barbie dolls in a WWII game?

How about using my Spartan Hoplites in a Naval game?

I think you'll find that (for the most part) gamers have always used aesthetically appropriate models for the game at hand. It just happens that for some games, the appropriate models only come from a single manufacturer.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:01:24


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:05:28


Post by: silence indigo


My entire army is made of conversions and a significant part of it is scratchbuilt (including resin sculpts by myself). It's part budget, but mostly artistic fun (I play chaos and orks). For example, five of my "bikers" are actually riders build using chaos marines, chaos marauders and monsters from the Doom boardgame (q.v. minis on the right of this image : http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/367042-Deathguard%207th%20Company%20exiles%20%28tainted%20loyalists%29%3A%20Church%20of%20the%20Emperor%20Revenant%20%28Terminators%29.html)

However, since I take pains to have everything look very original and paint it to a high standard (as much as I'm able, including pupils), I've never received anything but very positive comments and curiosity from other players. So I suppose it's a question of approach and attitude mostly to scratchbuilding and not just using chess pieces for infantry and shoe boxes for tanks...



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:13:04


Post by: livanbard


I do paper craft modular terrain to wargaming and rpg. Nothing more.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:16:51


Post by: Deathshead420


Does kitbashing count as scratch build?

I really like making them, and so far not one person has objected to it.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:18:56


Post by: nkelsch


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
I see a distinct difference between your Crassus and the OP's models. Your model is complete, painted and passes rule of cool.


See this doesn't make any damned sense.

The two pics the OP posted have wonderful representations of the actual 40K models. The Crassus doesn't really look like a Crassus (same basic shape) and has a few plastic weapons stuck on. Yet you see the Crassus as 'complete', whereas the others are not?


Paper models with inkjet printed details is not a complete model. It fails rule of cool.

The Crassus is way more complete, detailed, made out of real materials and actually painted and showed effort. An unpainted paper craft model is an incomplete model. It passes rule of cool. It is heads above the papercraft model in all aspects even if it lacks extreme detail. It is still a good scratch build.

The paper craft models would not be allowed in any events, and would be barley tolerated at any FLGS if not outright banned. They are not complete models and someone using them is not a a customer unless the FLGS sells reams of paper and printer ink. Last time I checked, you can't play war hammer at Staples.

Live and die by rule of cool. As long as the people and places you play at accept your 'standard' for models, what's the problem? Paper craft is not welcome at any store or event I have played at for about a decade now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that chaos kitbashes rhino passes rule of cool to me. May not fly at a GW store but should fly at most FLGS. Perfectly legal for events as well. Looks cool too so that helps.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:22:50


Post by: Big Mek Dattrukk


For me, it needs to be at least similar in size, and actually have some effort put into it. as was said by OP, a cardboard cutout with some guns drawn on is not acceptable.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:25:48


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Gosh, we take our hobby quite seriously don't we!

If you ever play against me, I'm fine with most things. Use Assault Marines as Khador Kommandos if you like, I don't really care. Hell, use a base for an Empire Swordman!

After all, we're all playing games. We've all put effort into this little hobby of ours. So what if someone has printed a Rhino out from the internet? It takes effort to glue all the bits together. And what if he's planning to upgrade the model in the not too distant future? This hobby is all about fun, and taking the fun out of some else's hobby is just cruel.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:43:43


Post by: Kaldor


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


Go for it! A bit hard to find someone else who manufactures Tyranids or Space Marines though.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 06:53:59


Post by: Kaiserbudheim


 DX3 wrote:
Your papercraft looks better than most of the unpainted, half put together, proxy-laden armies I play outside of tournaments.

I'd have no problem with it.


This. Well put, highly detailed scratch vehicles (and troops for the matter) are leaps and bounds better than shoddily assembled and painted and hordes of "counts as" proxies. These look like what they're supposed to represent, and I can easily identify them for game purposes. Granted, I will not put up with shoeboxes or lumps of putty parading as vehicle, but nothing irks me more than trying to remember that among official models "these" are actually "these with - -", that's a bigger offender to me. So props to those papercraft and game on!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 07:30:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kaldor wrote:
So no one would mind me using barbie dolls in a WWII game?

How about using my Spartan Hoplites in a Naval game?


Red herring x2.

You knew what he meant Kaldor. Don't be obtuse.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 08:07:52


Post by: Deathshead420


And that chaos kitbashes rhino passes rule of cool to me



Thanks, but its a vindicator. I was hoping people would be able to tell it was by the huge cannon. I might have failed.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 10:36:13


Post by: chromedog


I wouldn't mind Kaldor using barbie dolls in a 40k game. It would fit with the mickey mouse rules.

I don't play it anymore - so the likelihood of us ever meeting across a 40k table is soooo slim to be as close to 'never gonna happen' as it is possible to be.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 10:46:01


Post by: Crazyterran


Aslong as it's the same size, and looks like it had a good amount of effort put into it, sure!

If it's crappy card and looks absolutely awful, I'd still probably play against you, but I'd probably not be very polite about it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 13:17:16


Post by: Eilif


 Kaldor wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


Go for it! A bit hard to find someone else who manufactures Tyranids or Space Marines though.


This is not true. There are many, many alternate models for space marines and aliens.

Space Marines:
BTD "Starship marines"
RAFM "reaction marines"
Alternative "Armies Crusaders"
Spartan Games marines

Tyranids (aka geiger'esque insectoid aliens)
Kryomek aliens
SST bugs
Defiance games Bugs
Most anything from here: http://dawnofthelead.com/2010/10/19/alien-miniatures-a-review/

And that's just off the top of my head...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deathshead420 wrote:
And that chaos kitbashes rhino passes rule of cool to me


Thanks, but its a vindicator. I was hoping people would be able to tell it was by the huge cannon. I might have failed.


I think you succeeded. It's not entirely uncommon for folks to inadvernently use the term rhino when referring to a model based on something that uses the rhino chassis.

Out of curiosity which German tank did you use and was it 1/48 or 1/35 scale?

Got any in-progress or pre-paint shots?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 16:08:33


Post by: Bolognesus


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
I see a distinct difference between your Crassus and the OP's models. Your model is complete, painted and passes rule of cool.


See this doesn't make any damned sense.

The two pics the OP posted have wonderful representations of the actual 40K models. The Crassus doesn't really look like a Crassus (same basic shape) and has a few plastic weapons stuck on. Yet you see the Crassus as 'complete', whereas the others are not?


...That would be kind of subjective. See, I don't particularly like the crassus - but it looks okay to me. I wouldn't be wild about it but well, sure, go ahead
Those papercraft vehicles in the OP however - gah... I really can't stand the look of them. I mean, if OP likes them, and his opponents do too, have fun - sure! But for me, even an unpainted plastic model has more appeal than those things. (Perhaps I go more by shapes than by colours? I dislike any 2D terrain be it RPG maps or game boards or whatever as well - same reason: too flat for me. I believe that isn't exactly the case for you, as dakka's maps/game boards collector in chief - for what I've gathered - ? that might explain!)

The point being: this is going to be a subjective call. I probably wouldn't refuse playing against them if OP was a fun opponent which from his posts, he seems to be - but it'd be despite those models. Not such a great opponent? Hey, good reason to avoid having to play
Really, I think that IRL you're basically going to encounter perhaps 10% who would judge the actual model - 90% is going to be more interested in the quality of the game/opponent.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 17:41:47


Post by: Knight of Blood


I personaly do not have a problem with papercraft, chipboard and glue, diy, or scratch built models. play with whatever you have or can afford. The whole point is to play the game and have fun. If someone beats you with one of these armies, then get off of your high horse and buy that man a rhino. He obviously has a future in the game and i would want him on my side. As for the guy that was bragging about having 2k worth of points, remind him he still only has $5.00 worth of cardboard.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 18:53:22


Post by: Eilif


Knight of Blood wrote:
As for the guy that was bragging about having 2k worth of points, remind him he still only has $5.00 worth of cardboard.


Really? Indulge my curiosity for a second. How would you do this without coming across as a complete donkey cave?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 19:06:40


Post by: puree


Out of curiosity which German tank did you use


looks very much like a hetzer to me.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 19:22:43


Post by: thehod


 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I'd rather play against a well made and colored papercraft tank like the ones in the first post than play against a badly painted real model any day of the week. It's no different than the people who scratchbuild their own thunderhawks and titans with plasticard, cardboard, and extra bits. And for those who think it takes no time and effort to build a paper model, it took me nearly an hour just to cut, fold, glue, and tape together just the feet for a Warhound titan. I gave up after that point, too much work to finish the project.


^ This. I dont mind as long as there is effort put into making the model. I would rather play his paper craft vehicles that took time and effort to make than have someone just simply do a bad conversion or a lazily done proxy. But its all in the eye of the Beholder.


Now to the OP: I would accept any game you put down your TARDIS as a vehicle.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2012/12/31 22:13:34


Post by: aidangunn


I have done some papercraft work, it's not as easy as everyone thinks. One tank can take as long or longer than a similar plastic model. Personally, I have no problem with scratch built models because I understand the necessities of life. Bills first, then other things. That being said, I don't appreciate crappy workmanship. I'm not talking about a kid and their first attempts at converting/scratch builds. I'm talking about the"tissue box with the paper towel tube" Baneblade. I really like the crafters who build the models and take the time to do their own paint jobs. I plan on doing some papercraft Hydras for my IG because I can't afford the FW ones. Some day maybe, if I find a good deal, but not right now.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 00:01:23


Post by: MalikDrako


aidangunn wrote:
I have done some papercraft work, it's not as easy as everyone thinks. One tank can take as long or longer than a similar plastic model.

Especially if you are designing your own.
Just counting the time I took to design this model, I could have easily earned the money for, assembled, and painted at least one of the plastic models.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 01:05:37


Post by: Bolognesus


...Okay, that one I'd actually not mind playing against at all - really well done!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 04:48:32


Post by: Adam LongWalker


 Deathshead420 wrote:
Does kitbashing count as scratch build?

I really like making them, and so far not one person has objected to it.



That looks like a Hetzer body and it looks pretty damned good to me. Kit Bashing is a form of a conversion piece Scratch Building is basic raw materials and/or basic components to make something with it.

Regardless great job on the piece.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 05:20:01


Post by: Mattlov


With the OP models, I have no problems with it. If you put effort into it, and it is very close to the dimensions it is supposed to be, I am not only fine with it, I encourage it.

I would rather see that every day than a grey hull that is "modular" because they haven't finished assembling it. A good papercraft model looks good on the table and I have no problems with it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 05:57:33


Post by: Deathshead420


Thanks a lot, it is a 1/35 hetzer . I do have some WIP shots somewhere. It was for my first army, then got stripped and spikeyed up repainted BL colors.







How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 06:07:45


Post by: AegisGrimm


Sorry, but if i can look at a model and tell immediately what it is, it passes my test. I don't care if it's out of paper, metal or plastic. If i can look at a papercraft Landraider and say, "Yup, that player put some TLC into a construction and that's definitely a Landraider, with all the appropriate weapons and everything", than that's obviously what it is.

Saying I can't make a model out of paper because that's "crap", but saying I can do that same thing out of sheets of plastic is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

And sorry to dissuade all the Red Herrings and Strawman arguments - a papercraft landraider being used as a Landraider is not the same as using a barbie as an Eldar Guardian. Try again with something that's not some obtuse overreaction that doesn't make sense.

(To no one in particular) Not allowing something like in the OP is nothing more than unadulterated elitism. You are trying to impose your personal values on somebody else's hobby. There is absolutely nothing in the least about the examples that would confuse a game in progress. Calling them "crap" because you don't like them is exactly the same as refusing to play someone because you think their paintjobs on their actual GW models aren't up to your "standard" of what should be on the table.


To Deathshead420 and MalikDraco: Those models are really cool! Good job!



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 06:24:58


Post by: warriorpriest


 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sorry, but if i can look at a model and tell immediately what it is, it passes my test. I don't care if it's out of paper, metal or plastic. If i can look at a papercraft Landraider and say, "Yup, that player put some TLC into a construction and that's definitely a Landraider, with all the appropriate weapons and everything", than that's obviously what it is.

Saying I can't make a model out of paper because that's "crap", but saying I can do that same thing out of sheets of plastic is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

And sorry to dissuade all the Red Herrings and Strawman arguments - a papercraft landraider being used as a Landraider is not the same as using a barbie as an Eldar Guardian. Try again with something that's not some obtuse overreaction that doesn't make sense.

(To no one in particular) Not allowing something like in the OP is nothing more than unadulterated elitism. You are trying to impose your personal values on somebody else's hobby. There is absolutely nothing in the least about the examples that would confuse a game in progress. Calling them "crap" because you don't like them is exactly the same as refusing to play someone because you think their paintjobs on their actual GW models aren't up to your "standard" of what should be on the table.


To Deathshead420 and MalikDraco: Those models are really cool! Good job!



agreed.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 07:43:38


Post by: Amaya


I would expect it to be up to the quality of the rest of the army. However good or bad that may be.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 08:47:29


Post by: Kaldor


Eilif wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


Go for it! A bit hard to find someone else who manufactures Tyranids or Space Marines though.


This is not true. There are many, many alternate models for space marines and aliens.

Space Marines:
BTD "Starship marines"
RAFM "reaction marines"
Alternative "Armies Crusaders"
Spartan Games marines

Tyranids (aka geiger'esque insectoid aliens)
Kryomek aliens
SST bugs
Defiance games Bugs
Most anything from here: http://dawnofthelead.com/2010/10/19/alien-miniatures-a-review/

And that's just off the top of my head...


Ah, but see, none of those are aesthetically appropriate for use in any given 40K faction. You could maybe stretch some of them as a counts-as, but GW have gone out of their way to create a unique aesthetic for each faction. You could sub in some generic sci-fi figures of the appropriate scale, but that would be the same as a historical gamer running Napoleonic French as WWII Germans. After all, it's only some different clothes and a similar looking gun, so what's the harm, right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You knew what he meant Kaldor. Don't be obtuse.


Try to keep up, darling.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 09:11:30


Post by: warriorpriest


 Kaldor wrote:


Ah, but see, none of those are aesthetically appropriate for use in any given 40K faction. You could maybe stretch some of them as a counts-as, but GW have gone out of their way to steal a unique aesthetic for each faction. .


fixed it for you.

I love playing against odd stuff so the toaster would be awesome to play against as well as the papercraft stuff.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 10:22:32


Post by: Kaldor


 warriorpriest wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:


Ah, but see, none of those are aesthetically appropriate for use in any given 40K faction. You could maybe stretch some of them as a counts-as, but GW have gone out of their way to steal a unique aesthetic for each faction. .


fixed it for you.



In some cases, certainly. My point was simply that GW are the only company that makes Tau or Eldar or Space Marines, while many companies make historical figures. So suggesting that historical gamers are somehow more laid back because they're happy to use miniatures from any manufacturer, while GW gamers are up tight because they only like using models from GW is a bit silly.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 12:28:14


Post by: agustin


The hetzer to vindicator kitbash is fantastic. Immediately obvious as well.

The poll results show that only a small minority take issue with scratch built models, but the issue is that they seem to be a vocal minority.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 15:50:04


Post by: Bolognesus


Nothing whatsoever to do with the leading nature of the poll option, of course

and even the leading option requires 'some effort be put into creating it'. Nice. I don't think anyone disagrees - we're arguing over how much effort.

But by all means, go build your strawman!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 15:54:09


Post by: warriorpriest


 Kaldor wrote:
 warriorpriest wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:


Ah, but see, none of those are aesthetically appropriate for use in any given 40K faction. You could maybe stretch some of them as a counts-as, but GW have gone out of their way to steal a unique aesthetic for each faction. .


fixed it for you.




In some cases, certainly. My point was simply that GW are the only company that makes Tau or Eldar or Space Marines, while many companies make historical figures. So suggesting that historical gamers are somehow more laid back because they're happy to use miniatures from any manufacturer, while GW gamers are up tight because they only like using models from GW is a bit silly.


I know years back in another forum/yahoo group was something someone posted about how space marines and eldar where very close to some SciFI book/books/movie or something of the sort. I cannot quote the source as it was years ago. The Tau models yes as far as I have been able to to tell are 100% their idea. I am glad you thought my little word change was funny. It was meant to lighten the mood after all.

Back on topic I saw plans for some of the papercraft tanks and man......they are extensive work.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 16:26:05


Post by: nkelsch


 agustin wrote:


The poll results show that only a small minority take issue with scratch built models, but the issue is that they seem to be a vocal minority.


The poll is incredibly worthless simply because the OP was asking about Papercraft not Scratchbuilding.

Scratchbuilds and conversions are allowed in most tourneys and events and almost universally accepted.

Papercraft, a subset of that is almost universally NOT allowed at most tourneys and events and almost universally NOT accepted at FLGS.

And even Papercraft has levels... A detailed papercraft tank may be welcome but 2D paper printouts of figures may not be welcome by the same people.

So worthless poll is worthless... And trying to say that acceptance of the most detailed plasticard scratchbuild or well-executed conversion of a 3rd party tank means universal acceptance of a Papercraft tank is misleading because that is not reality and is a misleading conclusion to pull from the poll.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 16:39:41


Post by: warriorpriest


nkelsch wrote:
 agustin wrote:


The poll results show that only a small minority take issue with scratch built models, but the issue is that they seem to be a vocal minority.


The poll is incredibly worthless simply because the OP was asking about Papercraft not Scratchbuilding.

Scratchbuilds and conversions are allowed in most tourneys and events and almost universally accepted.

Papercraft, a subset of that is almost universally NOT allowed at most tourneys and events and almost universally NOT accepted at FLGS.

And even Papercraft has levels... A detailed papercraft tank may be welcome but 2D paper printouts of figures may not be welcome by the same people.

So worthless poll is worthless... And trying to say that acceptance of the most detailed plasticard scratchbuild or well-executed conversion of a 3rd party tank means universal acceptance of a Papercraft tank is misleading because that is not reality and is a misleading conclusion to pull from the poll.


Taken from Wikipedia:

Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled.

Scratch building is easiest if original plans of the subject exist; however, many models have been built from photographs by measuring a known object in the photograph and extrapolating the rest of the dimensions. The necessary parts are then fashioned out of a suitable material, such as wood, plastic, plaster, clay, metal, polymer clay, or even paper, and then assembled.

So yes the poll does aplly to the case of the OP scratchbuilt papercraft tanks.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 16:42:32


Post by: agustin


 Bolognesus wrote:
Nothing whatsoever to do with the leading nature of the poll option, of course

and even the leading option requires 'some effort be put into creating it'. Nice. I don't think anyone disagrees - we're arguing over how much effort.

But by all means, go build your strawman!


Umm. A strawman is an easily defeated argument you falsely represent as belonging to your opponent in a debate or argument.

The only objection you might reasonably have to my post was that I unfairly lumped together those who don't like non-standard models as members of a vocal minority. But at no time did I build an argument and pretend to falsely represent it as being held by others. Did I overgeneralize? Perhaps not as people are very vocal in this very thread.. But if you think I built a strawman, I'll direct you to your closest dictionary.

As for the "effort" question, I say effort is irrelevant. What people really want is results. If someone puts a ton of effort into a hobby project but it still doesn't look good or isn't appropriate in its dimensions as a representation of something in the game rules, the amount of effort is irrelevant. The rule of cool isn't the rule of effort. It's about how cool (and appropriate) the final result actually is.

And if people want better results among the non-standard models they face, they need to ask themselves if a community that is supportive of creativity or one that is critical of non-standard modelling attempts will get them there in the end.

The way to truly transcend this whole debate is to stop playing rules connected with a line of miniatures. Get the rules from one company and miniatures from another. This makes you think about actual representation and completely blows the idea of standard models out of the water. It also frees you from the conflict of interest of selling models as a game design goal.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 16:47:15


Post by: nkelsch


 warriorpriest wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
 agustin wrote:


The poll results show that only a small minority take issue with scratch built models, but the issue is that they seem to be a vocal minority.


The poll is incredibly worthless simply because the OP was asking about Papercraft not Scratchbuilding.

Scratchbuilds and conversions are allowed in most tourneys and events and almost universally accepted.

Papercraft, a subset of that is almost universally NOT allowed at most tourneys and events and almost universally NOT accepted at FLGS.

And even Papercraft has levels... A detailed papercraft tank may be welcome but 2D paper printouts of figures may not be welcome by the same people.

So worthless poll is worthless... And trying to say that acceptance of the most detailed plasticard scratchbuild or well-executed conversion of a 3rd party tank means universal acceptance of a Papercraft tank is misleading because that is not reality and is a misleading conclusion to pull from the poll.


Taken from Wikipedia:

Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled.

Scratch building is easiest if original plans of the subject exist; however, many models have been built from photographs by measuring a known object in the photograph and extrapolating the rest of the dimensions. The necessary parts are then fashioned out of a suitable material, such as wood, plastic, plaster, clay, metal, polymer clay, or even paper, and then assembled.

So yes the poll does aplly to the case of the OP scratchbuilt papercraft tanks.


No. Bullcrap. Just because wiki has a definition doesn't change reality on how this particular hobby functions.

A wiki definition won't get your paper craft models allowed at adepticon or convince the FLGS owner to allow you to use it considering it makes you a non customer. It won't make people ignore the distinct differences between kitbashes and other scratch builds.

It doesn't change "rule of cool".

The poll is flawed. You will see way more people accepting of scratch builds and kitbashes than you will of paper craft. Trying to say a Barbie is equal to a kitbash is trying to say a paper craft model is equal to a scratch built model, there are clear differences and some are welcome and some are unwelcome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is also a difference between models made with paintable card stock and printing out a template off your inkjet. While both are paper, one becomes a scratchbuilt model and the other is a paper craft model.

One will be welcome everywhere, the other unwelcome at most events, tourneys and FLGS.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 16:52:36


Post by: Bolognesus


 agustin wrote:
Umm. A strawman is an easily defeated argument you falsely represent as belonging to your opponent in a debate or argument.

Such as failing to notice that about 80% of votes in that poll potentially rule out almost all scratchbuilds, depending on what is 'some level of work' put into them? Glad we agree.
Your next qualifies as consistent in that sense only that it forms a sentence or two.
As for the "effort" question, I say effort is irrelevant

shifting the goalposts again, are we? Try to at least be subtle about it - it helps

As to the rest of your post - I take it that wasn't even directed at me? I fail to see how it qualifies as more than an unrelated rant.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 17:15:18


Post by: warriorpriest


nkelsch wrote:
 warriorpriest wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
 agustin wrote:


The poll results show that only a small minority take issue with scratch built models, but the issue is that they seem to be a vocal minority.


The poll is incredibly worthless simply because the OP was asking about Papercraft not Scratchbuilding.

Scratchbuilds and conversions are allowed in most tourneys and events and almost universally accepted.

Papercraft, a subset of that is almost universally NOT allowed at most tourneys and events and almost universally NOT accepted at FLGS.

And even Papercraft has levels... A detailed papercraft tank may be welcome but 2D paper printouts of figures may not be welcome by the same people.

So worthless poll is worthless... And trying to say that acceptance of the most detailed plasticard scratchbuild or well-executed conversion of a 3rd party tank means universal acceptance of a Papercraft tank is misleading because that is not reality and is a misleading conclusion to pull from the poll.


Taken from Wikipedia:

Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled.

Scratch building is easiest if original plans of the subject exist; however, many models have been built from photographs by measuring a known object in the photograph and extrapolating the rest of the dimensions. The necessary parts are then fashioned out of a suitable material, such as wood, plastic, plaster, clay, metal, polymer clay, or even paper, and then assembled.

So yes the poll does aplly to the case of the OP scratchbuilt papercraft tanks.


No. Bullcrap. Just because wiki has a definition doesn't change reality on how this particular hobby functions.

A wiki definition won't get your paper craft models allowed at adepticon or convince the FLGS owner to allow you to use it considering it makes you a non customer. It won't make people ignore the distinct differences between kitbashes and other scratch builds.

It doesn't change "rule of cool".

The poll is flawed. You will see way more people accepting of scratch builds and kitbashes than you will of paper craft. Trying to say a Barbie is equal to a kitbash is trying to say a paper craft model is equal to a scratch built model, there are clear differences and some are welcome and some are unwelcome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is also a difference between models made with paintable card stock and printing out a template off your inkjet. While both are paper, one becomes a scratchbuilt model and the other is a paper craft model.

One will be welcome everywhere, the other unwelcome at most events, tourneys and FLGS.


I think you need to go back and read the original post. We are not talking tourneys or events. He was just talking about how people feel in general about various scratchbuilds. Scratchbuilds are scratchbuilds. You cannot change the definition of the word just to suit your purposes.

As far as FLGSs not allowing papercraft it is good to know that you have spoken to every store in the world on what they would allow. You seem to have missed a few of them as I know a few places that would allow a papercraft model. I use to organize events at my FLGS back in 3rd edition and I would have allowed it and so would have the owner of the store given that most of the people that played in the events i ran spent money to play in said event and was regular customers at the store. I know one person that does papercraft and paints them and he was allowed to play with one tank without any complaints for the other players.

Are far as the rule or cool.... that is totally subjective. and it seems you feel papercraft is uncool. that is your choice but again you view on the the poll does not change the fact of what I previously stated.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 18:11:31


Post by: nkelsch


 warriorpriest wrote:

Are far as the rule or cool.... that is totally subjective. and it seems you feel papercraft is uncool. that is your choice but again you view on the the poll does not change the fact of what I previously stated.


Most people willing to play against scratchbuilds does not mean most people are willing to play against papercraft.

And considering there are distinctions drawn where scratchbuilt and painted models made out of plasticard and cardstock are allowed by papercraft printed off an inkjet printer and assembled would not be, it shows the poll is flawed and you cannot simply say 'all scratchbuilts are ok' because not all of them are ok.

The poll options are incredibly inaccurate and anyone referencing the flawed poll is also flawed.

And for you allowing Papercraft in your events, some people allow unassembled and unpainted models as well... makes those either casual events or poorly run events, and people DO choose not to attend those events because of the lowered standards. That is totally cool as people should attempt to play with like-minded players and make standards to please the target audience.

Painted Kitbashes and Painted Scratchbuilds meet a 'standard' which papercraft does not which means they are not treated the same regardless if people try to lump them all together for universal acceptance.

As long as people play with like-minded gamers, all is well. When someone tries to RAW argue their way into a tourney which allows scratchbuilds using a wiki definition with their inkjet papercraft models trying to say there is *NO* difference between them, that doesn't work.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 18:18:48


Post by: warriorpriest


nkelsch wrote:
 warriorpriest wrote:

Are far as the rule or cool.... that is totally subjective. and it seems you feel papercraft is uncool. that is your choice but again you view on the the poll does not change the fact of what I previously stated.


Most people willing to play against scratchbuilds does not mean most people are willing to play against papercraft.

And considering there are distinctions drawn where scratchbuilt and painted models made out of plasticard and cardstock are allowed by papercraft printed off an inkjet printer and assembled would not be, it shows the poll is flawed and you cannot simply say 'all scratchbuilts are ok' because not all of them are ok.

The poll options are incredibly inaccurate and anyone referencing the flawed poll is also flawed.

And for you allowing Papercraft in your events, some people allow unassembled and unpainted models as well... makes those either casual events or poorly run events, and people DO choose not to attend those events because of the lowered standards. That is totally cool as people should attempt to play with like-minded players and make standards to please the target audience.

Painted Kitbashes and Painted Scratchbuilds meet a 'standard' which papercraft does not which means they are not treated the same regardless if people try to lump them all together for universal acceptance.

As long as people play with like-minded gamers, all is well. When someone tries to RAW argue their way into a tourney which allows scratchbuilds using a wiki definition with their inkjet papercraft models trying to say there is *NO* difference between them, that doesn't work.


Then I guess we can find no middle ground and you will always have your mind set on the fact papercraft is not scratchbuild regardless of the definition of the word. .Changing 'your' definition of what scratchbuilding is still does not make the poll invalid. Only invalid in your eyes.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 18:25:10


Post by: nkelsch


 warriorpriest wrote:


Then I guess we can find no middle ground and you will always have your mind set on the fact papercraft is not scratchbuild regardless of the definition of the word. .Changing 'your' definition of what scratchbuilding is still does not make the poll invalid. Only invalid in your eyes.


If the poll agreed there are different types and some are acceptable and some are not, then maybe the poll would be valid.

Lots of people have commented on the thread that some scratchbuilds are ok, and some are not. Hence "Rule of Cool"

A dictionary definition and an invalid poll does no one any good if it doesn't meet reality. Make a real poll that distinguishes the clear differences between papercraft and other types of scratchbuilding like Kitbashes and plasticard builds and see the difference.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 18:40:08


Post by: warriorpriest


nkelsch wrote:
 warriorpriest wrote:


Then I guess we can find no middle ground and you will always have your mind set on the fact papercraft is not scratchbuild regardless of the definition of the word. .Changing 'your' definition of what scratchbuilding is still does not make the poll invalid. Only invalid in your eyes.


If the poll agreed there are different types and some are acceptable and some are not, then maybe the poll would be valid.

Lots of people have commented on the thread that some scratchbuilds are ok, and some are not. Hence "Rule of Cool"

A dictionary definition and an invalid poll does no one any good if it doesn't meet reality. Make a real poll that distinguishes the clear differences between papercraft and other types of scratchbuilding like Kitbashes and plasticard builds and see the difference.


Again no middle ground so I will take the high road and discontinue this discussion as your argument is based solely on your definition of what scratchbuilding is or isn't. It has been a pleasure though to discuss the topic with you, but i am butting out as I know these things can get heated and that is not my intent. I look forward to the next time.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/01 19:25:26


Post by: Quintinus


Knight of Blood wrote:
As for the guy that was bragging about having 2k worth of points, remind him he still only has $5.00 worth of cardboard.


Still better than having $400 worth of plastic and resin.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 00:08:40


Post by: Eilif


Deathshead420 wrote:Thanks a lot, it is a 1/35 hetzer . I do have some WIP shots somewhere. It was for my first army, then got stripped and spikeyed up repainted BL colors.

Spoiler:





Thanks for the info and pics. It really looks spot on, the size is right and appears to be a fairly simple conversion (no dig on your model intended). Maybe I should make a couple of Vindicators this way when I get around to making my RT-marine army.

Kaldor wrote:
Eilif wrote:
[
This is not true. There are many, many alternate models for space marines and aliens.

Space Marines:
BTD "Starship marines"
RAFM "reaction marines"
Alternative "Armies Crusaders"
Spartan Games marines

Tyranids (aka geiger'esque insectoid aliens)
Kryomek aliens
SST bugs
Defiance games Bugs
Most anything from here: http://dawnofthelead.com/2010/10/19/alien-miniatures-a-review/

And that's just off the top of my head...


Ah, but see, none of those are aesthetically appropriate for use in any given 40K faction. You could maybe stretch some of them as a counts-as, but GW have gone out of their way to create a unique aesthetic for each faction. You could sub in some generic sci-fi figures of the appropriate scale, but that would be the same as a historical gamer running Napoleonic French as WWII Germans. After all, it's only some different clothes and a similar looking gun, so what's the harm, right?.


We're going to have to agree to disagree here. First of all, we're not talking about historical outfits, we're talking about a sci-fantasy world that is far more diverse in it's representation thoughout it's existance that the current 6th edition range of miniatures would suggest.

Second, There are differences, but there are alot of folks who would see enough similarities between GW Tyranids, and other designs that are similarly Geiger-derived as being more than close enough in asthetic.

As for Marines, I would make the same argument that they are more than similar enough (often because they are intended to be so) to stand in for GW products.

You make a good point that GW has tried to create a unique and cohesive asthetic over the years, but when you look back over the history of most 40k faction miniatures line, a unique asthetic is much harder to pin down. Space Marines for example as produced by GW between 1987 and 2012 represent a rather large range of design features, yet all are GW-cannon and GW-game-legal. There are marines produced in the RT era that are far less similar to current designs (and visa versa) than they are to the lines I showed. In fact many of the alternate space marine lines out there could be easily mistaken by current players as RT era miniatures.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 01:35:22


Post by: Kaldor


Eilif wrote:
We're going to have to agree to disagree here. First of all, we're not talking about historical outfits, we're talking about a sci-fantasy world that is far more diverse in it's representation thoughout it's existance that the current 6th edition range of miniatures would suggest.

Second, There are differences, but there are alot of folks who would see enough similarities between GW Tyranids, and other designs that are similarly Geiger-derived as being more than close enough in asthetic.

As for Marines, I would make the same argument that they are more than similar enough (often because they are intended to be so) to stand in for GW products.

You make a good point that GW has tried to create a unique and cohesive asthetic over the years, but when you look back over the history of most 40k faction miniatures line, a unique asthetic is much harder to pin down. Space Marines for example as produced by GW between 1987 and 2012 represent a rather large range of design features, yet all are GW-cannon and GW-game-legal. There are marines produced in the RT era that are far less similar to current designs (and visa versa) than they are to the lines I showed. In fact many of the alternate space marine lines out there could be easily mistaken by current players as RT era miniatures.


The only point I was trying to make is that while you can get models that looke like GW stuff, it still isn't GW stuff. A generic alien is not a Tyranid, despite looking similar, and a generic space marine is not a Space Marine despite looking very close. For instance, Scibors Space Knights are the spitting image of Space Marines, but they are still different.

When you compare that to historical figures, the differences are important. The style of the clothing, the shape of the weapon, the type of hat that your model is wearing is all important. I can't just run American Civil War troops in my Napoleonic games, despite how similar the two ranges look. I mean, I can, but it would be proxying and in my experience historical and GW gamers are both pretty accepting of short term proxying solutions.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 09:23:59


Post by: Azazelx


 Kaldor wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


Go for it! A bit hard to find someone else who manufactures Tyranids or Space Marines though.


Those are probably the second and third most easily-proxied ranges/armies, after Imperial Guard.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 10:29:30


Post by: Kaldor


 scipio.au wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


Go for it! A bit hard to find someone else who manufactures Tyranids or Space Marines though.


Those are probably the second and third most easily-proxied ranges/armies, after Imperial Guard.


My point though, is that they would be proxies. As much as using Medieval French troops to represent Ottoman Turks would be. Sure, they're similar looking, but they're not the same. And I don't think it's fair to paint GW gamers as less accepting of proxies or counts-as than historical gamers. If anything, I think the reverse is true.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 10:46:47


Post by: Exalbaru


I apreciate how hard and long someone had to work on it. They arent the most attractive thing on the board but if they are made well I have no issue proxying in stuff. its a game, its about having fun.

I was tempted to click the go back to mud hut one just because it gave me a chuckle.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 10:59:49


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


 Kaldor wrote:
 scipio.au wrote:
 Kaldor wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?


Go for it! A bit hard to find someone else who manufactures Tyranids or Space Marines though.


Those are probably the second and third most easily-proxied ranges/armies, after Imperial Guard.


My point though, is that they would be proxies. As much as using Medieval French troops to represent Ottoman Turks would be. Sure, they're similar looking, but they're not the same. And I don't think it's fair to paint GW gamers as less accepting of proxies or counts-as than historical gamers. If anything, I think the reverse is true.


When did I ever say that you should use Medieval French troops to represent Ottoman Turks? All I said was that you can use multiple manufacturer's models for, say, a Viking army and that if the models are appropriate for, say, 40k then not many would complain. There are so many Tyranid Hive Fleets why couldn't Termagants for Hive Fleet Mediolanum look different from the more common ones?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 12:03:05


Post by: Kaldor


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
When did I ever say that you should use Medieval French troops to represent Ottoman Turks? All I said was that you can use multiple manufacturer's models for, say, a Viking army and that if the models are appropriate for, say, 40k then not many would complain. There are so many Tyranid Hive Fleets why couldn't Termagants for Hive Fleet Mediolanum look different from the more common ones?


I've been posting to a couple of people, so I'm really not sure who has said what.

The original statement that I took issue with, was that historical gamers are more laid back because they are happy to use miniatures from any manufacturer, while GW gamers are more up tight, because they only want to use GW miniatures.

I don't think this is accurate. Anyone can produce a medieval viking. There is no copyright or trademark or intellectual property or what-have-you, so anyone who wants an army of vikings can use miniatures from any company. At the same time, you can also proxy or use 'counts-as' to represent your viking army. Perhaps you want a zulu army, but the game system doesn't have rules for them, so you buy and paint zulu miniatures and use them with viking rules. There are better analogies, but you get where I'm coming from.

Now, GW games are different. There is a specific trademark, copyright, intellectual property or what-have-you. The only people that can produce Space Marines are GW. This, of course, doesn't prevent anyone from using generic or converted models from another manufacturer to play GW games. You can use your Starship Trooper bugs as Tyranids, or your Scibor Space Knights as Space Marines. However, this is either a proxy or counts-as situation. To refer to the first situation, it's not the same as using vikings from another manufacturer. It's the same as using zulus as vikings. You're taking something, and using it to represent something else.

To boil it down:

This game uses A. Lots of companies manufacture A.

The other game uses B. Only one company manufactures B

Lots of companies manufacture C[/c], which can be used instead of [b]A or B.

The suggestion that gamers who use A are somehow more laid back because they have a wider choice of manufacturers is a bit silly when, if anything, the gamers who use B are probably more accepting of people using C than the first group of gamers would be. An open ended scifi setting like 40K lends itself much better to proxying and counts-as than historical games do, after all.

Wow, that got longer than I thought it would.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 15:19:36


Post by: Easy E


Crazyterran wrote:
but I'd probably not be very polite about it.


Why?

Do you want people making fun of your paint jobs? I really don't think you want to start being unpolite to people based on what models they can/can not bring to the table.

Besides, I would challenge anyone to try building that Paper Russ or Land Raider the OP posted. Trust me, it is NOT as easy at it looks. Plastic kits are much more forgiving.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 15:31:50


Post by: Azazelx


 Highland_Piper wrote:
 Lansirill wrote:
Heck, why should I have to play against someone with a poorly painted army? If you can't paint to a high tabletop standard, pay someone else to do it. If you can't afford to pay someone, then maybe you need a more affordable hobby.

Can't play the game at a top tournament level? Hire someone to train you until you figure it out, or stay away. Why should I waste my time playing someone who isn't very good? Again, if you can't afford it, maybe this isn't the right hobby for you.


Wow! Really? So if everyone who does not have the skill of the Heavy Metal team should go find another hobby? You realise that GW would fold within a year if that was the case. Out of all the posts yours shocked me the most!


Mate, you pretty clearly fell into the Sar Chasm there.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 15:40:01


Post by: kronk


I'd play against paper models that looked like the ones in the OP. Those take a lot of skill and time to look that great, actually. I'm fine with it. The toasters Dark Eldar thingies? Not so much.

As the topic seems to be veering towards proxies...

I'm fine with Proxies, so long as I can look across the table and tell what I'm looking at. Pig Iron Productions guardsmen? Find, as long as I can tell who has a meltagun, a flamer, and a plasma gun.

Mantic's Space Orks? Sure, if I can pick out the Nobs from the boyz and the power klaw from the big choppa.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 15:51:29


Post by: Talizvar


Hmm hard one to comment on but my thoughts:

If there is some measure of WYSIWYG I would let you use anything.

Anything involving effort and not a lazy method of "proxy" I can respect.

This is Papercraft which I still feel is different even though much of the assembly process is the same (my problem not yours). An origami Rhino I would like to see though.

When all is said and done: a model that looks consistant to the material and looks like a miniature real "thing" is what we are after. A way to clean up the edges of these paper/cardboard objects would really help their look.

If we were looking for an impressive looking battle these types of figures would detract from the look. I have a hard enough time getting non-gamers to stop calling these toys or a waste of time.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 17:14:19


Post by: Eilif


 Kaldor wrote:
 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
When did I ever say that you should use Medieval French troops to represent Ottoman Turks? All I said was that you can use multiple manufacturer's models for, say, a Viking army and that if the models are appropriate for, say, 40k then not many would complain. There are so many Tyranid Hive Fleets why couldn't Termagants for Hive Fleet Mediolanum look different from the more common ones?


I've been posting to a couple of people, so I'm really not sure who has said what.

The original statement that I took issue with, was that historical gamers are more laid back because they are happy to use miniatures from any manufacturer, while GW gamers are more up tight, because they only want to use GW miniatures.

I don't think this is accurate. Anyone can produce a medieval viking. There is no copyright or trademark or intellectual property or what-have-you, so anyone who wants an army of vikings can use miniatures from any company. At the same time, you can also proxy or use 'counts-as' to represent your viking army. Perhaps you want a zulu army, but the game system doesn't have rules for them, so you buy and paint zulu miniatures and use them with viking rules. There are better analogies, but you get where I'm coming from.

Now, GW games are different. There is a specific trademark, copyright, intellectual property or what-have-you. The only people that can produce Space Marines are GW. This, of course, doesn't prevent anyone from using generic or converted models from another manufacturer to play GW games. You can use your Starship Trooper bugs as Tyranids, or your Scibor Space Knights as Space Marines. However, this is either a proxy or counts-as situation....

...The suggestion that gamers who use A are somehow more laid back because they have a wider choice of manufacturers is a bit silly when, if anything, the gamers who use B are probably more accepting of people using C than the first group of gamers would be. An open ended scifi setting like 40K lends itself much better to proxying and counts-as than historical games do, after all.

Wow, that got longer than I thought it would.



I think it's a moot point. Proxying rarely comes up in Historicals because as you point out the range of figures/companies is so great.


I do disagree with the strict application of the terms "Proxying" or "Counts as", which implies a completely different figure being used to represent something it is not. If I plunk down Starship Marine from BTD which is armed with a chainsword and bolter-ish gun it's not really proxying, it's simply using an "alternate figure" representing the same subject matter. Falling back on GW's copyright of the term "Space Marine" as proof that using a Starship marine is proxying doesn't hold water with me and just mirrors the sentiment that folks seem to cling to that:

only GW figures should be used with GW games because GW holds the copyright and trademark on a certain set of designs and names.

I realize that many folks hold this view, but myself and my friends use the figs we want, with the rules we want regardless of what some company or fanbase tells us to use.

I agree that 40k is much more suitable for using "alternate figures", but that is also because it's a game whose owners try to steer you into their own expensive brand of figures. See my post below.

 Kaldor wrote:

My point though, is that they would be proxies. As much as using Medieval French troops to represent Ottoman Turks would be. Sure, they're similar looking, but they're not the same. And I don't think it's fair to paint GW gamers as less accepting of proxies or counts-as than historical gamers. If anything, I think the reverse is true.


That's an interesting point. I'd say they're probably equally intolerant of proxies or alternate figs, but the difference is that GW gamers are tied to one company with very expensive miniatures. That changes the entire dynamic when you talk about which figures to use so much that comparing GW fans feelings about Proxies and Historical Fans feelings is like comparing apples and oranges.

If a given historical gamer doesn't want to buy the more expensive figs (which are usually already dramatically cheaper than GW) then there are usually several available price points of figures from various miniature companies. The issue of proxying rarely comes up because there's not the same price barriers.

People use proxy or "alternate figs" figs to have cheaper miniatures or different miniatures. Both of these issues are handled by having a range of choices in the historical market, so almost no one proxies. When they do, it's usually a matter of using the same countries soldiers from a different theater of operations or a slightly different historical time, and both situations are usually handled without complaint. Whether you show up with Perry Plastics or Foundry metals, your ACW figs will be accepted at the table even if the figures are armed and clothed slightly differently than might be expected for the particular date of the battle being played.

However, the same dynamic doesn't exist for 40k where if it isn't the GW official model, then alot of folks will get thier feathers ruffled, even if it's similarly armed and armored.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 17:53:45


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Kinda not quite on topic, but GW make Rohan Warriors that look like:


Gripping Beast make Viking Hirdmen that look something like this:


They look pretty damn similar don't they?

Now, for 20 pounds you get 44 Vikings and for 15 pounds you get 15 Rohirrim. Yet the miniatures are nearly the same, or very similar.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 21:43:59


Post by: Igloo


I would gladly play against these any day, they look better than many of the "painted" models I have seen.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/02 23:04:39


Post by: Eilif


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Kinda not quite on topic, but GW make Rohan Warriors that look like:
[/img]

Gripping Beast make Viking Hirdmen that look something like this:
Spoiler:


They look pretty damn similar don't they?

Now, for 20 pounds you get 44 Vikings and for 15 pounds you get 15 Rohirrim. Yet the miniatures are nearly the same, or very similar.



It's roughly the same issue you get with 40k models.

I'd consider them simply an alternate model, more than similar enough to be a good representation of the subject matter, and great for play.

Some folks would say that GW/Jackson Rohan Warriors are a specific design, the Gripping beast figs do not match the design, and thus are proxies and not suitable for play.

It all depends how insistent your opponent is that the smaller elements of a given GW-trademarked design are essential in making it an appropriate representation of the subject.
or...
Simply how (in)tolerant they are of off-brand miniatures in their game.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/03 02:11:03


Post by: snooggums


I keep hearing effort being a component, so would purchasing a painted model and putting zero effort into it before plunking it on the table be bad?

Or does it only matter if it looks like it took the kind of effort that the observer thinks is appropriate?

I liked the papercraft models in the OP, they were clean and to scale. I liked some of the later examples as well, so in my opinion if it is a proxy or kitbash for a pickup game all that really matters is that it is easy to play with and keep track of. If playing a serious campaign, then maybe accuracy and painting could matter, but I would rather have a fun game with a monster toaster or paper tank that I can keep track of than someone who complains about how the person at the next table over is using unpainted models.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/03 03:24:18


Post by: Kaldor


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They look pretty damn similar don't they?


They're very similar, and I certainly wouldn't have an issue with someone using them as Rohirrim, but they are also clearly NOT Rohirrim. Where is the horse iconography? Where are the green cloaks?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/03 03:25:16


Post by: agustin


I made a papercraft chimera back in the late 90s when Bile first released his templates. I used a very heavy card stock, filled it with expanding foam spray, primed it, painted it and people thought it was the real thing.

Printed on colour is nice and all, but I like papercraft that goes the extra step and is painted up using miniature painting techniques.

I'm super laid back about what models represent what. As long as I'm not confused (this guy with a bolter actually has a missile launcher), I'm fine.

Proxying: Using one miniature to represent another where the miniature is not necessarily representative of the model it is replacing. Consistency is often not maintained. When you face that opponent, that model might have been used last game as model X but this game it might instead be switched to suddenly be model Y.

Alternative model: Using one miniature to represent another where the miniature is representative of the model it is replacing and consistency will be maintained. When you face that opponent, that model will always represent model X and not be switched to suddenly be model Y.

Papercraft, scratchbuilt, alternative manufacturer, actual model, I don't care as long as it gets out of the proxying category and into the one where it's representative, not confusing and consistent.

I find the actual models, but all in bare metal or primer, to be worse than any proxy or alternative model though as telling them apart is a pain.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/03 14:02:55


Post by: Camkierhi


WOW what an emotive subject.

I have tried to build the paper tanks and its amazing how much work is involved.

I used to play in clubs and gw stores, and I dont think I would have used a papertank then, but at home and with my mates group, then yes.

At the moment I am getting back into the game and I only play at home with my kids and so "house rules" apply. Games workshop themselves have always stated that the rulebook is a guideline and that house rules are needed. Several of my current models would not be allowed in any store or tourney. Nor would I expect them to.

I have had oppenents who fielded SM as eldar and paper printouts glued to 3d shapes. I think I would be pushed with a tisssue box as a tank though.

As to people complaining about 4 x baneblade papertanks cheesyness, well if they have spent that much in points you have the same points to spend, I do not know the points value of a baneblade but it probably buys me an awful lot of nobz and boyz, or tank busterz or lootaz. My point being yes its a bit cheesy but the whole point of the points system is that it evens the playing field, ( which as it happens I am not in complete agreement with.)

To me the biggest crime I have seen after getting back into this game was at my sons after school club. On an off chance and at his request he took my attempt at a leman russ papertank along. It was rejected because the barrel was a bit long and it stood 3mm to tall on the field. I do not object, it is thier "house rules". But the local rich kid turns up with his nice shiny new fw warhound with the worst paintjob ever and only half built and its OMG get it on the field NOW

I live 50 miles from the store, work all week and spend all my spare time on my kids and this wonderful hobby, to be able to represent some tank that I will never afford and play games with my own small group, and to possibly but some of my efforts out on the web for others to criticize/praise is what its all about for me. Obviously its diferent for others.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/03 14:27:26


Post by: Grimtuff


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Kinda not quite on topic, but GW make Rohan Warriors that look like:
Spoiler:


Gripping Beast make Viking Hirdmen that look something like this:
Spoiler:


They look pretty damn similar don't they?

Now, for 20 pounds you get 44 Vikings and for 15 pounds you get 15 Rohirrim. Yet the miniatures are nearly the same, or very similar.



I see a GW Chaos Marauder head on the leader guy of those Vikings.

But, yes; this isn't even in the same league as papercraft. It's simply swapping a model over. Which is perfectly fine(to an extent) in GW circles.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/03 14:35:25


Post by: edbradders


If they look good, I'll play against them. If they're just a box about the size as what it is representing, no way (unless the person is proxying to test a list before they buy models and asks me if it's ok first).


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 01:54:42


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


I'd be interested to know what people would think of papercraft models made from templates that I have put a lot of work in to shading/highlighting/weathering like those in my gallery...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-59981-29312_Paper_rhino.html





I haven't had a chance to actually build anything from them yet (too busy with work and don't have a printer capable of doing it justice), but I'd be interested to hear what some of the paper-haters would think of papercraft models made from templates of that level quality (which is frankly better than I paint most my "real" tanks ).


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 03:43:33


Post by: Ouze


 Deathshead420 wrote:
And that chaos kitbashes rhino passes rule of cool to me



Thanks, but its a vindicator. I was hoping people would be able to tell it was by the huge cannon. I might have failed.


I thought it was a..... storm bolter.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 15:09:40


Post by: Exalbaru


I think none of it matters to play, its about meeting new people and having fun to me. As long as theyre not buying 2 dollar plastic army men and saying theyre space marines I'm good. (thatd even be fine for IG, same thing really )

I've never had an issue proxying something or even if someone wants to try out a model and proxy other models for it as long as he points out spec weapons its all gravy.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 15:21:20


Post by: GaussGuy


I agree with the sentiment of others in regards to that this wargaming, building, painting, is our hobby and collectively we are all connected to it. In that connection people feel strongly about what constitutes the hobby for them and tries to force that ideal on others. I think it is best to just step back and realize the fun that you are having is not necessarily the same fun someone else believes in. This is our hobby and what we make of it.

If people didn't plan outside the box we wouldn't have fantastic pieces such as the one gent who has the remote control lego tanks, or beautiful scratch built titans/ most forgeworld related vehicle models.

You are more then welcome to place restrictions on what you believe is fun but I believe it is ethically wrong to suggest what others do is unacceptable/wrong/ breaking the spirit of the hobby because their scope doesn't match your scope of what is fun.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 16:09:04


Post by: warriorpriest


 GaussGuy wrote:

You are more then welcome to place restrictions on what you believe is fun but I believe it is ethically wrong to suggest what others do is unacceptable/wrong/ breaking the spirit of the hobby because their scope doesn't match your scope of what is fun.


Well said.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 18:10:16


Post by: Rented Tritium


I absolutely hate tournaments so 100% of my games are friendly.

I really don't care what people bring. Proxies are totally fine, papercraft is fine, stuff from other games is fine. I really don't care as long as you're not modeling for advantage and being reasonable about telling me what stuff is.

That said, I REALLY prefer fully painted armies. Games against them are 1000 times better and I reserve the right to say things like "man, you really need to finish and paint your army" every turn.

But refusing a game? Saying that it's not "fair" if they don't have a fully painted army? That's not even what those words mean. I would never refuse a game for those reasons.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 19:38:38


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 Rented Tritium wrote:
That said, I REALLY prefer fully painted armies. Games against them are 1000 times better and I reserve the right to say things like "man, you really need to finish and paint your army" every turn.

But refusing a game? Saying that it's not "fair" if they don't have a fully painted army? That's not even what those words mean. I would never refuse a game for those reasons.
I agree. I'm never going to refuse playing against someone with an army of proxies and unpainted models. However, I feel playing with and against a fully painted army is much more enjoying, which is largely why I haven't gamed much over the past 8 years, I don't have the time or patience to paint a full army.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/04 21:27:48


Post by: Deathshead420


I thought it was a..... storm bolter.



You my friend might need to get your prescription updated lol.

Something I should have said about the OP, his paper craft looks epic and would play against it any day. As someone already stated, I would play 100 games against them, then 1 game of white or black primed figs.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 01:36:41


Post by: Bolognesus


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd be interested to know what people would think of papercraft models made from templates that I have put a lot of work in to shading/highlighting/weathering like those in my gallery...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-59981-29312_Paper_rhino.html





I haven't had a chance to actually build anything from them yet (too busy with work and don't have a printer capable of doing it justice), but I'd be interested to hear what some of the paper-haters would think of papercraft models made from templates of that level quality (which is frankly better than I paint most my "real" tanks ).


Again, I seem to go more by shapes than colours so no, it'll still look too flat. I might play against it - but I'd prefer not to.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 01:46:10


Post by: rigeld2


That would be 3d - there's a template for the 4 exhaust covers, cutouts for the front and back...


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 02:00:27


Post by: Bolognesus


Flat rivets, flat detail on the exhausts to name but two - you like papercraft? Fine please do understand there's plenty of folkto whom it still looks like crap even when pretty well-executed.
This ranks below shoddily painted decent mini for me, as personal taste.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 02:02:47


Post by: rigeld2


 Bolognesus wrote:
Flat rivets, flat detail on the exhausts to name but two - you like papercraft? Fine please do understand there's plenty of folkto whom it still looks like crap even when pretty well-executed.
This ranks below shoddily painted decent mini for me, as personal taste.

I'm curious, what flat detail on the exhausts? (Aside from rivets)
I'm not trying to antagonize, I'm trying to help. If you're dead set against paper craft that's fine, but just say that it's not going to be acceptable ever.

Does making it out of plasticard make a difference?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 14:49:18


Post by: Ovion


rigeld2 wrote:
 Bolognesus wrote:
Flat rivets, flat detail on the exhausts to name but two - you like papercraft? Fine please do understand there's plenty of folkto whom it still looks like crap even when pretty well-executed.
This ranks below shoddily painted decent mini for me, as personal taste.

I'm curious, what flat detail on the exhausts? (Aside from rivets)
I'm not trying to antagonize, I'm trying to help. If you're dead set against paper craft that's fine, but just say that it's not going to be acceptable ever.

Does making it out of plasticard make a difference?


Carboard or Plasticard won't make much difference, apart from plasticard is more durable in the long run.

The exhausts have vents on them, to do it right, you'd need at least 3-4 layers of detail.
i.e.:
Layer 1: Base shape.
Layer 2: bulking - first holes for vents.
Layer 3: Top layer - final holes for vents.
Layer 4: Rivets.

Then the smokestaks:
- L1: Base,
- L2: Vent Holes.
That door:
- L1: Base (possibly just base of tank).
- L2: Raised inner door rim + holes for footholds + handholds.
- L3: Ground Spikes at top (be it little boxes or 2-3 layers of card as required)
The Rhino Chasis:
- L1: Base
- L2: Vents
- L3: Raised Armour sections 1
- L4: Same again. (though these thick layered sections will depend on the width of the card at the end of the day.)
- L5: Rivets
And so on, the final layers must be the correct dimensions, everything else adjusted back.

You apply that method to everything, and it'll result in a much stronger, much classier piece, that done right - may be indistinguishable for a proper model.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 15:11:57


Post by: Wizarding23


So long as they don't involve ridiculous rulesets all is well.

I remember those DIY vehicle rules that were in a white dwarf a few editions ago and boy were those a disaster!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/05 15:56:15


Post by: Bolognesus


rigeld2 wrote:
 Bolognesus wrote:
Flat rivets, flat detail on the exhausts to name but two - you like papercraft? Fine. please do understand there's plenty of folkto whom it still looks like crap even when pretty well-executed.
This ranks below shoddily painted decent mini for me, as personal taste.

I'm curious, what flat detail on the exhausts? (Aside from rivets)
I'm not trying to antagonize, I'm trying to help. If you're dead set against paper craft that's fine, but just say that it's not going to be acceptable ever.

Does making it out of plasticard make a difference?

Look at an actual plastic rhino, and spot the recesses. the exhaust pipe has some sort of holes in it, there's recesses in the armour structure leading up to it as well (3 on each side) all of which are flat on this model.
...And that's just the exhausts - Im not even getting into flat paper tracks, as usually seen on such models.

I don't care one bit what it's made out of - if you get all that detail right I'd be perfectly happy with it. However, these complaints were just exhausts and tracks - not the most detail-heavy bits of a rhino by a long shot
Again, it's a matter of personal taste.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/09 19:17:33


Post by: Easy E


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'd be interested to know what people would think of papercraft models made from templates that I have put a lot of work in to shading/highlighting/weathering like those in my gallery...

I haven't had a chance to actually build anything from them yet (too busy with work and don't have a printer capable of doing it justice), but I'd be interested to hear what some of the paper-haters would think of papercraft models made from templates of that level quality (which is frankly better than I paint most my "real" tanks ).


Don't do things because other people may or may not like it. Do it because YOU want to.*




*= Note: Please continue to keep morals, ethics, and the law in mind while following above advise. Easy E isnot responsible for the outcomes of following such advise.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/11 16:50:16


Post by: Squigsquasher


 scipio.au wrote:
 Highland_Piper wrote:
 Lansirill wrote:
Heck, why should I have to play against someone with a poorly painted army? If you can't paint to a high tabletop standard, pay someone else to do it. If you can't afford to pay someone, then maybe you need a more affordable hobby.

Can't play the game at a top tournament level? Hire someone to train you until you figure it out, or stay away. Why should I waste my time playing someone who isn't very good? Again, if you can't afford it, maybe this isn't the right hobby for you.


Wow! Really? So if everyone who does not have the skill of the Heavy Metal team should go find another hobby? You realise that GW would fold within a year if that was the case. Out of all the posts yours shocked me the most!


Mate, you pretty clearly fell into the Sar Chasm there.


Sigged.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 15:24:57


Post by: Hruotland


Playing 40k is not participating in GW hobby, it is doing MY hobby. The rules and the models are means to have a common basic when playing with others, no more, no less. GW may preach "thou may not purchase from other companies", I don't care. In the end I want to have a aesthetically and game-wise pleasing table-top experience that gives me the illusion of having a Sci-Fi battle like movies do.
One of my gaming buddies fields self-made Leman Russ based on WW2 Tiger tanks. They are convincing as tanks, in the context of IG at once recognicable as counts-as LR, allright with me. If someone fields a Greater Deamon of Slaaneesh featuring a converted Barbie doll, why not? Just have some work done so that it fits into the overall aesthetics. Myself, I cannot afford to purchase much for new models, also I love the RT Land Raiders. Papercrafting the basic model with some extra effort concerning convincing gunnery, searchlights and such, then having a paint job of the same standard as the rest of my army does the work for me. Also there are models I find completely ugly and looking like they will never work. Papercraft and scratchbuild my own design is the answer.
In my opinion one of the greatest armies of all time is that much disputed "Styrofoam cubes" army of Tzeentch Demons. Grand idea, because of the low number of unit types no problem to distinguish the units, and the image of standing against such a horrendous force of abstract objects that smash into your rows out of nowhere is super-cinematic of a level seldom achieved.

Someone have a problem with it? Then we do not share the same hobby.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 16:18:38


Post by: nkelsch


 Hruotland wrote:


Someone have a problem with it? Then we do not share the same hobby.


Then don't complain when people refuse to play you and you are not welcome at a majority of the well-run and highly participated in events run by the Indy community. Your foam cubes, barbie dolls and paper boxes can have fun playing with yourselves.

Everything is fine when people find like-minded gamers, the issue is when people who feel entitled that their barbie doll should be universally accepted everywhere.

The problem is the people who want to use their toys as proxies don't have the skill or won't put the effort to turn this:


in to this:


Rule of cool is a fickle bitch...


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 17:04:57


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


So your complaining someone doesn't have the same skills as you?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 17:25:09


Post by: nkelsch


 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So your complaining someone doesn't have the same skills as you?


If they don't have the skills to turn a barbie doll into a game-quality figure, then they shouldn't attempt to bring that to a game table with standards. They can simply buy the the official model and give it a 3 color paint job which is do-able by everyone.

Scratch-building has standards and if you don't have the skills or won't do the effort, don't be mad when your models are not welcome everywhere.

If you lack the skill, you can spend more money and time to make quality models.
If you lack the money, you can use more skill and time to make quality models.
If you lack the time, you can use more skill and money to make quality models.

If you lack all 3, or are unwilling to develop any of those efforts, then why are you trying to participate in this hobby?

Barbie dolls, paper boxes and nondescript foam cube are not welcome everywhere. People act as if they are entitled to be accepted everywhere, which they are not. Being broke, lazy or talentless is not a reason to allow a barbie doll on a wargaming table.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 17:31:16


Post by: TheLionOfTheForest


nkelsch wrote:
 Hruotland wrote:


Someone have a problem with it? Then we do not share the same hobby.


Then don't complain when people refuse to play you and you are not welcome at a majority of the well-run and highly participated in events run by the Indy community. Your foam cubes, barbie dolls and paper boxes can have fun playing with yourselves.

Everything is fine when people find like-minded gamers, the issue is when people who feel entitled that their barbie doll should be universally accepted everywhere.

The problem is the people who want to use their toys as proxies don't have the skill or won't put the effort to turn this:


in to this:




Rule of cool is a fickle bitch...


Omg that is an awesome conversion. I just go that Toy story mr potato head for my daughters birthday, can't wait untill she's outgrown it lol.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 18:35:08


Post by: Hruotland


And you don't think it is so funny BECAUSE you recognize the cited concept of Mr Potato Head? Or that you cannot achieve the same with a real Mr Potatohead? Or you could not achieve the same degree of work on a Slaaneesh daemon with a real Barbie doll , still somewhat recognizable? In the end it is about creativity!

And Nkelsch: indeed, we two don't share the same hobby. The events I visit everyone would applause if someone turned a Barbie doll into a greater Slaaneesch daemon. Not if someone just sat a Barbie onto the table and called it "daemon", mind.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 20:53:01


Post by: Eilif


 Hruotland wrote:
And you don't think it is so funny BECAUSE you recognize the cited concept of Mr Potato Head? Or that you cannot achieve the same with a real Mr Potatohead? Or you could not achieve the same degree of work on a Slaaneesh daemon with a real Barbie doll , still somewhat recognizable? In the end it is about creativity!

And Nkelsch: indeed, we two don't share the same hobby. The events I visit everyone would applause if someone turned a Barbie doll into a greater Slaaneesch daemon. Not if someone just sat a Barbie onto the table and called it "daemon", mind.


I think Hroutland and Nkelsch are making the same point without realizing it. Sounds like you'd both be happy to see Mr Potato Head or Barbie on the game table IF AND ONLY IF, it was a good quality conversion.

Of course "good quality" is subjective and a grey area, but I'm really only interested in seeing good quality kitbashes or conversions on the table. If you're just plunking down a toy with some paint on it, then I will not be impressed.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 21:20:16


Post by: Enigwolf


nkelsch wrote:

Scratch-building has standards and if you don't have the skills or won't do the effort, don't be mad when your models are not welcome everywhere.

If you lack the skill, you can spend more money and time to make quality models.
If you lack the money, you can use more skill and time to make quality models.
If you lack the time, you can use more skill and money to make quality models.

If you lack all 3, or are unwilling to develop any of those efforts, then why are you trying to participate in this hobby?

Barbie dolls, paper boxes and nondescript foam cube are not welcome everywhere. People act as if they are entitled to be accepted everywhere, which they are not. Being broke, lazy or talentless is not a reason to allow a barbie doll on a wargaming table.



Very, very, true.

Another thing that seems to be a point of contention for a lot of players (and myself, if I'm in a competitive mood) is that when scratchbuilding, the model needs to be representative of the original. i.e. sponsons and fire points can't be modeled for advantage, and the hull needs to be similarly shaped and sized. For example, anyone else remember that cool Stormtalon walker? Unfortunately, I wouldn't play against it in a tournament setting, because its profile and height are different from that of an actual Stormtalon - doesn't mean that I don't think it's cool, though.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 22:15:04


Post by: Bolognesus


 Enigwolf wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

Scratch-building has standards and if you don't have the skills or won't do the effort, don't be mad when your models are not welcome everywhere.

If you lack the skill, you can spend more money and time to make quality models.
If you lack the money, you can use more skill and time to make quality models.
If you lack the time, you can use more skill and money to make quality models.

If you lack all 3, or are unwilling to develop any of those efforts, then why are you trying to participate in this hobby?

Barbie dolls, paper boxes and nondescript foam cube are not welcome everywhere. People act as if they are entitled to be accepted everywhere, which they are not. Being broke, lazy or talentless is not a reason to allow a barbie doll on a wargaming table.



Very, very, true.

Another thing that seems to be a point of contention for a lot of players (and myself, if I'm in a competitive mood) is that when scratchbuilding, the model needs to be representative of the original. i.e. sponsons and fire points can't be modeled for advantage, and the hull needs to be similarly shaped and sized. For example, anyone else remember that cool Stormtalon walker? Unfortunately, I wouldn't play against it in a tournament setting, because its profile and height are different from that of an actual Stormtalon - doesn't mean that I don't think it's cool, though.

Actually, check out the youtube vid here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/hobby-stormtalon-assault-walker.html
It's about the same height. it misses a wee bit of the tail profile but really not something which would make much of a difference on a tabletop in a significant manner. I'd not mind that even in a tournament setting. Really, the difference is minimal...


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/12 22:22:55


Post by: nkelsch


 Bolognesus wrote:

Actually, check out the youtube vid here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/hobby-stormtalon-assault-walker.html
It's about the same height. it misses a wee bit of the tail profile but really not something which would make much of a difference on a tabletop in a significant manner. I'd not mind that even in a tournament setting. Really, the difference is minimal...


It is the opposite of the guy who hqad a Squat I-guard army, made custom 'hover transports' and then used the squats short stature to shoot UNDER his hovering chimeras claiming true LOS. I also think there were some issues where there was disembarking from a different location than if it was a 'stock chimera'. But these are MFA issues not directly tied to scratch building itself.

The walker stormtalon can be played 'as if it was the stock model' and be fair to both opponents which means it gets more acceptance under the fickle 'rule of cool'. Abusive squat hovertanks being used for LOS cover won't get the same latitude from 'rule of cool'.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/13 08:01:53


Post by: Enigwolf


Bolognesus wrote:
 Enigwolf wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

Scratch-building has standards and if you don't have the skills or won't do the effort, don't be mad when your models are not welcome everywhere.

If you lack the skill, you can spend more money and time to make quality models.
If you lack the money, you can use more skill and time to make quality models.
If you lack the time, you can use more skill and money to make quality models.

If you lack all 3, or are unwilling to develop any of those efforts, then why are you trying to participate in this hobby?

Barbie dolls, paper boxes and nondescript foam cube are not welcome everywhere. People act as if they are entitled to be accepted everywhere, which they are not. Being broke, lazy or talentless is not a reason to allow a barbie doll on a wargaming table.



Very, very, true.

Another thing that seems to be a point of contention for a lot of players (and myself, if I'm in a competitive mood) is that when scratchbuilding, the model needs to be representative of the original. i.e. sponsons and fire points can't be modeled for advantage, and the hull needs to be similarly shaped and sized. For example, anyone else remember that cool Stormtalon walker? Unfortunately, I wouldn't play against it in a tournament setting, because its profile and height are different from that of an actual Stormtalon - doesn't mean that I don't think it's cool, though.

Actually, check out the youtube vid here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/hobby-stormtalon-assault-walker.html
It's about the same height. it misses a wee bit of the tail profile but really not something which would make much of a difference on a tabletop in a significant manner. I'd not mind that even in a tournament setting. Really, the difference is minimal...


nkelsch wrote:
 Bolognesus wrote:

Actually, check out the youtube vid here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/hobby-stormtalon-assault-walker.html
It's about the same height. it misses a wee bit of the tail profile but really not something which would make much of a difference on a tabletop in a significant manner. I'd not mind that even in a tournament setting. Really, the difference is minimal...


It is the opposite of the guy who hqad a Squat I-guard army, made custom 'hover transports' and then used the squats short stature to shoot UNDER his hovering chimeras claiming true LOS. I also think there were some issues where there was disembarking from a different location than if it was a 'stock chimera'. But these are MFA issues not directly tied to scratch building itself.

The walker stormtalon can be played 'as if it was the stock model' and be fair to both opponents which means it gets more acceptance under the fickle 'rule of cool'. Abusive squat hovertanks being used for LOS cover won't get the same latitude from 'rule of cool'.


I stand corrected. I had neither seen the model in real life nor the video. If the storm talon walker is indeed that similar, then I'd had no problems. It just looked a fair bit shorter than a storm talon on a flight stand. I was referring more towards examples such as the squats and hover tanks army. Personally, when I kitbash and scratch build, I get exact dimensions (especially for weapon firing points) from the original model it is meant to represent and work them into my design constraints.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/13 12:26:16


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


nkelsch wrote:

If you lack the skill, you can spend more money and time to make quality models.


You need practice to build something decently. I'd say that I'm no longer an atrocious painter, but that's because I've practiced for 6 years to get to the average level that I have achieved now. If they've put effort into it and not spent 10 minutes gluing cardboard to a barbie doll, then why not allow it? The chances are that if they get encouragement they'll continue to build and improve their skills.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/13 14:37:04


Post by: scarletsquig


I once papercrafted a wave serpent using the templates that came with White Dwarf.

Looked pretty nifty!


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/01/13 15:31:31


Post by: Enigwolf


 scarletsquig wrote:
I once papercrafted a wave serpent using the templates that came with White Dwarf.

Looked pretty nifty!


I remember those!

...Back when White Dwarf actually had cool stuff. :( 'Eavy Metal Masterclass, wasn't it?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/23 17:33:01


Post by: Vmw1971


Hi. I used to scratch build quite a lot and hadnt heard of the phrase "papercraft" until today. I made quite a few models out of internally structured cardboard that were of a very high standard. These including two ork dreadnoughts, a 19" tall mini gargant for 40k used as scenery, an imperial steamtank, a rhino and loads of other things. Scratchbuilding and "papercraft" for me were an integral part of the hobby and a creative way to get actual representation onto the tabletop without selling a kidney. To hear people say stuff like they will only play using gw minis and on gw terrain is actually quite annoying. People who hold this opinion should realise that they are basically helping gw rake in more money whilst ignoring the fact that wargaming is in part a hobby based on creating your own things. I would never have a problem with scratch built or converted, as long as they looked the part. Its a main part of the hobby after all.

In the end i gave up on the 28mm scale and stuck hundreds of epic models to pennys. I had armies for all of the 40k forces (about 5000 pts per army) based up this way and painted very well. We played using cm rather than inches and the games worked better than in 28mm as it gave a greater feeling of scale and range and mobillity became a real factor in tactics. I mentioned what i had done in the nearby games store and the blokes working there said it was a rubbish idea and that it would never work. Well it did, it played better and saved me vast ammounts of cash. The best thing of all was having actual figure representation, a unit of marine dreads were there, on the table and not a pipe dream. When i gave up the hobby i gave all of these armies away so unfortunatley i have no photos to show you. A shame really as i scratch built plenty of that stuff.

You should definatley scratchbuild. Do it. If people dont want to play you then they are probably too stuck up to be worth your time.

P.s love the toaster and kettle tank thingies, very funny.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/23 17:42:04


Post by: Jimsolo


The most important part of the hobby to me is how our game looks on the field, or how it looks to other people. If your handmade vehicle looks as good or better than a GW one, then we're golden.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 03:40:30


Post by: TheAuldGrump


 Mecha_buddha wrote:
The OP has models that look amazing, more importantly they look exactly like what he wants to play them as.

A lot of comments seem to resent papercraft because they didnt buy models, I would rather play someone that put effort into his army.

Two scenarios that drive me nuts, guy has a full 1500 point IG army, everything is glued together primed black, he considers this as "finished" I cant tell what squat is.

scenario 2, guy has 50 bolter tac marines, painted ok. then he explains his army "these 5 are devastators with missiles, these 5 are devastators with lascannon, these 10 are assault marines with jumppacks, this is a 10 man tac squad with melta multi melta...etc etc. completely maddening.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WaaaaghLord wrote:
So if it's no cheaper, and takes exactly the same amount of time, why not just buy the real thing?


Papercraft seems to be the extreme hobby dilemma of time vs money. the raw materials are cheap, but to do it well, you need to spend much more of your time.

Its like buying used models, popping them apart, stripping them and rebuilding them. you save money but it takes more time than if you grabbed a kit to start with.

with both there is a certain amount of hobbyist pride when the items turn out well.


Pretty much the post that I would have written had you not beaten me to it.

I do paper modeling - I have been doing paper modeling since the 1960s.

Some of my first wargaming was done with plastic troopers and Indians and a papercraft frontier fort from a Disney magazine.

I have no problems with a decently built paper model.

The Auld Grump


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 03:51:39


Post by: Relapse


I'm all for good scratch built, especially like the OP has on display. The advantage of doing it that way is that it gives a person the chance to decide if they want to end up using a particular model in their army rather than paying a lot of money and end up shelving it after only a couple of games.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 03:56:19


Post by: Grot 6


I've seen numerous cardstock, balsa wood, and plastic vehicles over the years.

It comes down to fun. If you are willing to put army to table, you get what you get. You don't get the say to tell someone that they need to fork over a couple of hundred for a model tank.

The minute you started looking at peoples stuff down your nose, you become a GW snob, buying into the party line.

That is the same sort of DB mentality that spouts off at the hole about GW being a collectors company and not about gaming. (Then all you are bringing to the table is a pretty purse and shoes combination.)

It is about wargaming. Game being the operative word here. FUN. PLAY. and hobby. Not HHHobby.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 03:58:59


Post by: DeffDred


What's with all the necroing?

Scratch build a unit that does not exist is cool.

Those paper things... heresy. You can't afford 40k? Go play something else. Like jacks or hop-scotch.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grot 6 wrote:
I've seen numerous cardstock, balsa wood, and plastic vehicles over the years.

It comes down to fun. If you are willing to put army to table, you get what you get. You don't get the say to tell someone that they need to fork over a couple of hundred for a model tank.

The minute you started looking at peoples stuff down your nose, you become a GW snob, buying into the party line.

That is the same sort of DB mentality that spouts off at the hole about GW being a collectors company and not about gaming. (Then all you are bringing to the table is a pretty purse and shoes combination.)

It is about wargaming. Game being the operative word here. FUN. PLAY. and hobby. Not HHHobby.


So if I hop down the 3 steps off my porch and call it sky diving, you wouldn't have a problem with that? Because if you did you'd be a skydiving snob.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 09:12:33


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Are you being serious?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 09:21:45


Post by: Purifier


 DeffDred wrote:
So if I hop down the 3 steps off my porch and call it sky diving, you wouldn't have a problem with that? Because if you did you'd be a skydiving snob.


That is clearly the same thing.

If you made a papercraft parachute, I'd call it skydiving.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 09:26:03


Post by: Peregrine


 Purifier wrote:
If you made a papercraft parachute, I'd call it skydiving.


Except if you want to make a proper analogy with 40k the papercraft parachute is actually half a parachute, has holes in it everywhere, and you fall screaming and die. Because let's be honest here, "papercraft" in 40k usually means "minimal-effort proxy that vaguely resembles the real model" and the people making them are doing it because it's the cheapest way to play the game, not because they're great works of art.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 10:24:32


Post by: Enigwolf


 Peregrine wrote:
 Purifier wrote:
If you made a papercraft parachute, I'd call it skydiving.


Except if you want to make a proper analogy with 40k the papercraft parachute is actually half a parachute, has holes in it everywhere, and you fall screaming and die. Because let's be honest here, "papercraft" in 40k usually means "minimal-effort proxy that vaguely resembles the real model" and the people making them are doing it because it's the cheapest way to play the game, not because they're great works of art.


I've never seen a well-done papercraft model that looks like what it's supposed to be, only the slightest hints of the shape. I shouldn't be able to tell that it's a scratchbuild if you did scratchbuild something.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 10:51:15


Post by: Purifier


 Peregrine wrote:
 Purifier wrote:
If you made a papercraft parachute, I'd call it skydiving.


Except if you want to make a proper analogy with 40k the papercraft parachute is actually half a parachute, has holes in it everywhere, and you fall screaming and die. Because let's be honest here, "papercraft" in 40k usually means "minimal-effort proxy that vaguely resembles the real model" and the people making them are doing it because it's the cheapest way to play the game, not because they're great works of art.


I think the quality of his paper parachute being poor is only going to marginally lower his already abysmal chances of survival. I'd still call it skydiving. There are other things I would also call it.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 11:11:26


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


Look, to be honest, it shouldn't really matter what someone does or doesn't do. If they want to play with papercraft models, why do we complain? We're the same people who have 10-page long threads about how expensive GW models are, then complain about people trying to save a bit of money. In addition, it's really really bloody hard to make the models to look respectable. Do you remember making those 3d models in primary school out of paper? Do you remember how difficult it was?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 11:16:50


Post by: bit81


Have to admit have never tryed it myself or even fought against any one who has had any paper craft.

To be honest would love to try it if nothing else to see how it all turns out but then again have always hated glueing if they look good and keep money out of gw hands I am all for it


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 11:23:10


Post by: Dakkamite


I'm amazed at people who would refuse to play an army because you didn't fork out crazy $$$ for it. I bought my army second hand for 20-30% of store price - got a problem with that?

With regards to scratch built models, like any good Ork I use these extensively. I actually prefer scratch builds, as long as they look decent and/or the other guy has clearly put effort into it. They can look as good or better than GWs stuff, and have the added bonus of not adding to GW's heaping pile of jewgold

Will tolerate rubbish looking / unbuild / proxy stuff as long as its temporary. They're trying something to see if its worth building, or its under construction.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 12:02:05


Post by: rahxephon


Overall kind of indifferent. Don't exactly mind versing them, but probably wouldn't use them myself.

Ultimately though it just depends on how interesting they are to me. For example with the OPs land raider, I can clearly see it is one, but at the same time can see its a papercraft so it'd give me something to talk about over the course of the game (looking at a more pick up game setting here). It's just like well painted official models, I've seen plenty of unpainted/poorly painted leman russes which is fine but not exactly interesting. The odd time something's well painted I'm often inclined to talk about the painting side of the hobby, just like if I saw those papercrafts opposite me.

I can understand the other views of not wanting to verse scratch builds at all though. I imagine its sort of a case of; I forked out for all of this army and paints/books etc etc, and feel that its unfair for someone else to be able to have the same army but not have had to make the same (monetary) sacrifice. This is sort of reflected in me not wanting to use scratchbuilds myself, but being okay if an opponent is using them since I'm not really in a position to judge or impose my views on them.

The one thing I would say that is very important for scratchbuilds is for them to be painted (or in this case: printed). For me, painting a scratchbuild shows a certain degree of dedication to the creation of the model itself, and not just building it for the sake of have a model substitute on the field. Doesn't even have to be painted well, just well enough... and that's were you make da call, just not on an online forum.

Scratchbuilt terrain on the other hand is a completely different matter. I've never bought any official terrain pieces from GW in my life. Admittedly I have got some from other retailers like micro art studio but in general have made it all myself.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 18:18:53


Post by: Eilif


A pretty clear bit of trolling, but I'll bite.

 DeffDred wrote:
Those paper things... heresy. You can't afford 40k? Go play something else. Like jacks or hop-scotch.

It's only heresy to someone who believes that rules must be inextricably linked to models by the same company, and that's a mindset that pretty much only exists among some fantasy and sci-fi gamers. Historical gamers and lots of fantasy/sci-fi gamers (as shown by the high # of aftermarket bits/figs companies) don't have that same hang-up.

 DeffDred wrote:

So if I hop down the 3 steps off my porch and call it sky diving, you wouldn't have a problem with that? Because if you did you'd be a skydiving snob.

That's a poor analogy. A slightly better analogy would be that you can skydive with any brand of parachute gear and as long as the size and general specs are similar. You're still skydiving whether you're using a high-end Sensei or a student level Solo. The analogy breaks down when you take into acount built vs bought, so perhaps boats is a better one.

Whether you buy a boat kit, build it from raw materials, or buy a fully constructed boat, you're still boating. Whether the hull is Carbon fiber, fiberglass, wood, or styro-foam, you're still on the water.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 18:58:33


Post by: DeffDred


 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm amazed at people who would refuse to play an army because you didn't fork out crazy $$$ for it. I bought my army second hand for 20-30% of store price - got a problem with that?


Not at all because you are using the real models.

If you had pieces of paper with colored dots on them and claimed that blue dots were marines and red dots were terminators I'd have a problem.

Again, 40k is a hobby for people to spend on hobbies.

If you cannot afford the hobby try a different one.

I'll try a different analogy:

Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and floats like a duck... it's a mallard (possibly a witch).



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:03:25


Post by: Satan's Little Helper


The rule of cool my friend. The rule of cool.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:06:25


Post by: Purifier


 DeffDred wrote:
 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm amazed at people who would refuse to play an army because you didn't fork out crazy $$$ for it. I bought my army second hand for 20-30% of store price - got a problem with that?


Not at all because you are using the real models.

If you had pieces of paper with colored dots on them and claimed that blue dots were marines and red dots were terminators I'd have a problem.

Again, 40k is a hobby for people to spend on hobbies.

If you cannot afford the hobby try a different one.

I'll try a different analogy:

Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and floats like a duck... it's a mallard (possibly a witch).



Sometimes I spend more on my conversions than the real model would have cost, but I can't play with it according to some because it's not GW.

I can understand not allowing paper with blue dots on it to be "16 space marines" but the elitism in this hobby is out of control sometimes.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:23:05


Post by: DeffDred


 Purifier wrote:
 DeffDred wrote:
 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm amazed at people who would refuse to play an army because you didn't fork out crazy $$$ for it. I bought my army second hand for 20-30% of store price - got a problem with that?


Not at all because you are using the real models.

If you had pieces of paper with colored dots on them and claimed that blue dots were marines and red dots were terminators I'd have a problem.

Again, 40k is a hobby for people to spend on hobbies.

If you cannot afford the hobby try a different one.

I'll try a different analogy:

Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and floats like a duck... it's a mallard (possibly a witch).



Sometimes I spend more on my conversions than the real model would have cost, but I can't play with it according to some because it's not GW.

I can understand not allowing paper with blue dots on it to be "16 space marines" but the elitism in this hobby is out of control sometimes.


It is an elite hobby after all. In fact one of the local FLGS around here is " Elite Hobbies and Games".


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:23:20


Post by: rigeld2


 DeffDred wrote:
Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If you meet the actual requirements (which is more than just looks) I'm sure they would.
Can you show me any requirements other than your elitist assumption that would preclude a papercraft model?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:43:21


Post by: DeffDred


rigeld2 wrote:
 DeffDred wrote:
Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If you meet the actual requirements (which is more than just looks) I'm sure they would.
Can you show me any requirements other than your elitist assumption that would preclude a papercraft model?


3 colors and basing?


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:48:53


Post by: Enigwolf


 DeffDred wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeffDred wrote:
Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If you meet the actual requirements (which is more than just looks) I'm sure they would.
Can you show me any requirements other than your elitist assumption that would preclude a papercraft model?


3 colors and basing?


GW events require GW parts. All Warhammer World events still have this requirement.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 19:59:17


Post by: dementedwombat


This image should make my feelings quite clear.



How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 20:12:20


Post by: rigeld2


 DeffDred wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 DeffDred wrote:
Let's say I want to race in Nascar. I don't have the money or resources to get involved. But I can afford an old Chevy Prism and I have friends who do automotive body work.

If I have them make a body that LOOKs like a Nascar racecar and show up to a race I don't think they'd let me join in.

If you meet the actual requirements (which is more than just looks) I'm sure they would.
Can you show me any requirements other than your elitist assumption that would preclude a papercraft model?


3 colors and basing?

So no actual rule? I can point to Nascar safety and performance rules that would disqualify you 10 ways to Sunday on your earlier example.
Just your elitest assumptions then. Cool - as long as you admit it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 dementedwombat wrote:
This image should make my feelings quite clear.

http://s18.postimg.org/yryxqnuo9/8bce9e27.jpg

I hope you also bring up the front/back lascannons with "proper" model opponents.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 20:45:23


Post by: dementedwombat


rigeld2 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 dementedwombat wrote:
This image should make my feelings quite clear.

http://s18.postimg.org/yryxqnuo9/8bce9e27.jpg

I hope you also bring up the front/back lascannons with "proper" model opponents.


The sarcasm was strong when i posted that. Sorry if it wasn't clear. i suppose someone who wasn't familiar with the whole "2/10" image thing wouldn't get it. I hoped the lascannon would be so over the top people would figure it out, but this is the internet and sometimes the intent behind what someone is saying isn't so easy to pick up on.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 21:09:23


Post by: Baldsmug


one time i played against a kid who was running using a rhino that looked like it was made out of sheetrock, no clue how he did it. The rest of the army was pretty..well... it... It was in keeping with the theme set by the rhino. Didn't really bother me as i know what its like to be broke. I do appreciate it when someone puts a lot of time and effort into a model because its nice to look at but i don't require it. I know some people like to put others down for whatever reason when it comes to this game and thats not really cool just because you can do something really well doesnt mean others arent trying or doing the best they can.
That being said, Printing out a model and folding it together is kind of lame espescially if its done poorly or if to be cheesy. I have seen some of the really cool cardboard models on here, not paper craft, but models made from card board the same way you would scratch build something from plasticard that look awesome.
I guess as long as the person is cool and the papercrafted army is'nt made simply to be cheesy its all good.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 21:11:43


Post by: Ovion


I still want that Tardis USB hub.


How do you feel about scratch built vehicles? @ 2013/06/24 23:47:47


Post by: Janthkin


Please don't revive threads that are more than one month dormant.