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 TheContortionist wrote:
what if my scratch builds cost waaaayymore than the actual models to make?

Then you're the rare exception. Scratchbuilding is fine when the quality of the end result is at least as good as the "real" model and you're doing it to create a unique work of art. It's only a problem when you're putting cheap garbage on the table because you're too lazy and/or cheap to buy/build a proper model. It's just unfortunate that the cheap/lazy people far outnumber the few people who make legitimate scratchbuilds.

I largely agree. Of the models shown in this thread, the plasticard Crassius and the Sakura taisen dreadnought are pretty cool.

The cardboard models shown are all badly done (in my poor college student years I had a cardboard Rhino and Chimera that nobody in my gaming group could identify as not being official models until picked up) and the Talos are an absolute disgrace to the hobby. I'd seriously rather face a printed 2D picture of the model than some box with GW bitz glued to it.

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS

You are aware that the poll currently stands at 89% okay with scratchbuilds, right?

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS

You are aware that the poll currently stands at 89% okay with scratchbuilds, right?

Yeah, besides the poll being horribly generic, the issue isn't with scratchbuilds. The issue is with 'bad' scratchbuilds.

'Rule of Cool' is a fickle mistress and often people won't find your models as cool as you think they are. I think there is a worlds of difference between unpainted flimsy paper models, unwysiwyg scratchbuilds which look nothing like what they are supposed to represent and painted, sturdy, detailed scratchbuilds faithful to their design and WYSWIYG. The issue is when someone says "if you like one, you must accept all" which isn't true.

I concur. Bad models are bad models, whether scratchbuilt or not. People will usually cut more slack to un- or badly painted/built official models, taking it as a sign that the player is new, inexperienced and unskilled, but hopefully trying.

With scratchbuilds, if it's especially bad and unattractive, you add the factors of it sometimes being even worse looking, and potentially not matching the dimensions of the actual model, which can have an impact on play.

For my personal taste, my tolerance level with scratchbuilds is usually a little lower, as the person is basically asking my indulgence to do something out of the ordinary, and my incentive to allow that is that this gives me the potential to face something different AND nice. If the "nice" factor is not present, than neither is my incentive to be welcoming toward an alternative model.

That said, IME in MOST cases scratchbuilds and substitutions are reasonably creative and attractive, and MOST scratchbuilders/substitutors make a good faith effort to have their models be attractive and the right size/shape/weapon layout (the latter for vehicles). So I'm quite happy to play against them the vast majority of the time.

The exceptions are when I encounter something that looks nasty/is unpainted, AND has clearly been substituted out of laziness and/or cheapness. In those cases I do feel like my goodwill as a player is being exploited, and I'm less inclined to give the person a game or allow the model if I'm organizing a tournament.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The cardboard models shown are all badly done (in my poor college student years I had a cardboard Rhino and Chimera that nobody in my gaming group could identify as not being official models until picked up) and the Talos are an absolute disgrace to the hobby. I'd seriously rather face a printed 2D picture of the model than some box with GW bitz glued to it.

While some people don't like it, is the Talos really an 'absolute disgrace to the hobby'? Seems a bit of an overreaction to a harmless bit of fun. At least it's been modelled to some completion which is more than be said of many unpainted armies.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I largely agree. Of the models shown in this thread, the plasticard Crassius and the Sakura taisen dreadnought are pretty cool.

The cardboard models shown are all badly done (in my poor college student years I had a cardboard Rhino and Chimera that nobody in my gaming group could identify as not being official models until picked up) and the Talos are an absolute disgrace to the hobby. I'd seriously rather face a printed 2D picture of the model than some box with GW bitz glued to it.

For the record, it's not 'just a cardboard box with bitz stuck on'.
It has a solid frame made of sprue and wire, which most of the bits are actually attached to, there's numerous details layered and sculpted on with Greenstuff (there's a set of grabby tentacles under the toaster for example, and a wall if the dead painted inside its slots), furthermore it's Wysiwyg (as far as good be when it was built), both are incredibly resilient taking a LOT of abuse, the local GW staff haven't had an issue with them (it was even staff that encouraged me to make the kettle) and no one I've played has had a problem with it. Once you say 'they're Talos' it's set.

Yes, I coulda made them better, but they're hardly the worst made, and calling it 'an insult to the hobby', especially when it's for fun is going a bit far I think. :/

I would not be happy to see either of those Talos fielded by a random pickup opponent or at a tournament. However, if I were one of the friends in on the original joke which gave the idea, I would undoubtedly like and enjoy them as an expression of the joke and within the context of our friendship.

Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.

 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.

No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.

nkelsch wrote:

 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.

No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.

So by this logic, you shouldn't be able to use your scratchbuild in a store that sells the miniatures you're scratchbuilding?

i should point out that I don't agree with this either, and it gets my goat when people rock up with a pile of paper instead of a codex, but I don't see how people are okay with building miniatures out of paper instead of buying them, but not with printing out a codex.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:
From what I have gathered on this thread the rules for 40k should now be:
1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

I find the elitism in 40k is getting to be too much just like the price of models every time i look at them and they seem to go up in price.

I am going to sell all my 40k crap as I am just sick of all the 40k BS

You are aware that the poll currently stands at 89% okay with scratchbuilds, right?

Better than that.. 8% said they dislike it but wouldn't stop it.. So really, it's actually only 3% would be an issue!

As I said, we remember the bad more than the good, I think it's sad that people sometimes allow the very rare proper douchebag drag them from something they enjoy.

For example, I enjoy wearing ladies underwear, and I have never allowed the occasionally scathing remarks to ruin the pleasure of feeling soft satin knickers with a split in the crotch rubbing against my coarse hairy skin.

 WaaaaghLord wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.

No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.

So by this logic, you shouldn't be able to use your scratchbuild in a store that sells the miniatures you're scratchbuilding?

i should point out that I don't agree with this either, and it gets my goat when people rock up with a pile of paper instead of a codex, but I don't see how people are okay with building miniatures out of paper instead of buying them, but not with printing out a codex.

Well if you came in with a full army of papercraft models and never bought anything in the store, then I would consider you a rude mooch taking space from other paying customers.

Most 'scratchbuilders' still require paint, glue and plasticard/rod and are 'customers' because they spend money with extensive hobby supplies. Buying 30$ of plasticard or a 30$ modelmakes me a customer.

I also feel there are issues with many of the downloaded papercraft designs being illegal, like when people take 3d models from the DoW video game, texture them with video game skins then sell them as 3D models for papercraft. There is a huge difference between people making their own models and downloading a cut-out off the internet.

It is up to store owners to determine what they will 'tolerate' in their store. They should not tolerate illegal PDFs, and 'papercraft' depending on the situation may also not be appropriate in a FLGS and the owner can make decisions on what he wants to allow. Scratchbuilds, being distinctly different from papercraft, are going to be mostly OK as they are different no matter how much people try to make them the same.

I agree with that. As long as you've bought something from the store to build it with, then I think that's okay. It's not scratchbuilding I have an issue with, just scratchbuilding with paper. It's not even a cost thing. I just happen to think that building a miniature out of paper is pretty lame. But, as I've said on many occasions before, everyone is allowed their own opinion. I would never not play a SM army because the Rhino's were built out of paper.

I think the toastalos is so bad, it's good.

I'd play against it because it's funny.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Florintine Mallorean wrote:

1. Everything must be bought from gw and not made at all
2. If it is not from gw you can't play
3. It has to be the current model as older players have many counts as and such

Don't forget:
4. Must be painted to a minimum 3 color standard, preferably well above that.
5. Can't use dips - that'd be a cheating shortcut.

Speaking of "cheating", apparently if you airbrush your vehicles that counts, too. Everything must be hand-painted!

I think it's better to disregard folks who have antisocial or incompatible views of the hobby to your own, rather than focusing on them too much. Especially when those views are demonstrably a small minority.

 Ovion wrote:

For the record, it's not 'just a cardboard box with bitz stuck on'.

True it is a kettle with bitz stuck on it...... still horriblly executed.

 Ovion wrote:

furthermore it's Wysiwyg (as far as good be when it was built)

not sure how you consider this anywhere close to Wysiwyg considering you can't tell what they are by looking at it. Bottom line is that it really isn't Wysiwyg.

 Ovion wrote:

Yes, I coulda made them better, but they're hardly the worst made, and calling it 'an insult to the hobby', especially when it's for fun is going a bit far I think. :/

I suppose we agree here I wouldn't consider it an insult to the hobby either. Horribly ugly and done excruciatingly poorly yes but that isn't an insult to the hobby.

GW have been marketing this game to children for several years. Some kids take years to develop a decent standard of model building/painting. They produce 'rubbish', but it would be tight to begrudge them a hobby because of it. No-one who is reasonably nice would tell them to bugger off based on that, so why is it acceptable to tell them to do one because they lack funding?

'If you're too poor you shouldn't play'..ridiculous elitism.

And I like the Toaster. It's amusing. Amusing is also cool.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I think it's better to disregard folks who have antisocial or incompatible views of the hobby to your own, rather than focusing on them too much. Especially when those views are demonstrably a small minority.

I agree with this, though what's "antisocial" is going to vary widely and "the Minority" is often a pretty large group.

Still, I agree with the underlying assmuption that the hobby is big enough for everyone to find opponents who share their views of the hobby.

As I've said before, my prejudice is a disdain for unpainted miniatures. So I started a club with some guys who feel the same way. We play lots of different games with lots of different minis, but you won't find a single unpainted (though we do have some prepainted) miniature on our tables.

We don't apologize for our preferences and we don't force others to do as we do. We simply choose to spend our time gaming with those who are like-minded.

Personally, for me the game is more about the hobby than the actual playing. I love to paint, model and build stuff, it shows that you are really invested in the game.

I too follow the 'rule of cool' when it comes to things on the table. For me, unless it is exceptionally good, I don't find paper cool. I wouldn't refuse the game (Just like I refuse to personally field a model that is unpainted because it bugs me a lot to do so) I wouldn't shove my own opinions onto other players.

I play against friends who have horribly painted armies (and offered to touch them up for them every so often) I play against one guy who has a few scratchbuilt and resin copies of tanks, that bugs me a bit but I don't refuse games.

Heck, I know I wouldn't pay even half the price for a plastic rhino/Leman Russ/Falcon/Devilfish, how can I expect everyone else to?

I actually encourage people to do something against the "established" orthodoxy of 40K! I grew up in an era of Warhammer where even the models in the RT rulebook were just kit-bashed toys. Yeah, I'm looking at you Orgus Flyer!

I wouldn't stop you, you can't use them in tournies etc. so I'd only facing them in friendly games where I am equally able to field scratchbuilds.

I would be somewhat unhappy deep down though, just because I love the 40K world and scratchbuilds (not always, but often) taint the experience for me.

The elitism in these kinds of threads always astounds me. And it's usually from people who play with unpainted minis. You (generally speaking) think that just because you paid 70 dollars for your plastic box-shaped toy makes you better than the guy who scratch built a paper box-shaped toy. Truly shameful behavior.

I understand the need for proper models and such in the tournament setting, which I frequent a lot, as precise model sizes, etc. are important. A pick up game at the FLGS? I dont care if you're pushing around kid-sized cereal boxes as tanks. Stop promoting this elitist behavior.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Considering that anyone with the money or time can have a properly painted, modelled army, I don't see how enjoying a fully painted/modelled game is elitist. Expensive perhaps, but not compared to many other sports and hobbies. I would consider someone elitist if they refused to play 40k with me because I didn't have the appearance of a rich white suburbanite, or went to a certain school, or maybe in the 40k world, they might be elitist if they only played with other tournament winners or painting award winnners or something.

Warhammer 40k really is the opposite of elitism. Nearly anyone can show up with painted army and get accepted, and my local hobby group has a remarkable variety of age, race, background, income, (but perhaps not gender). I would venture to say all those things considered it is the most diverse group I've ever belonged to.

nkelsch wrote:

 WaaaaghLord wrote:
Jeez, is this still going on?

I have one more question with regards to this. Would you be okay with me using a printed PDF of a codex, rather than the actual book? If your answer is yes, then you should have no problem with papercraft. If your answer is no, then feel free to complain away.

No. I do not support Piracy. Using pirated materials in a FLGS who sells the very thing you pirated is beyond rude and damaging to the people who pay rent on the air you breathe while in their store.

Do it at home so you can read codexes you don't play? That is on you, what you do at home is your responsibility. You want to game in public, especially FLGS? Then own the copyrighted materials you use to play the game, preferably bought locally if you can so you 'pay where you play'.

I know many stores who will request pirated publications not be allowed in the store. They are perfectly justified in doing so.

i find it unethical and a boarderline scam how GW expects everyone to constantly rebuy new books all the time.

especially to kids who dont know any better. the update could be two weeks away and the shop probably wouldnt say anything. "hey, you know that codex you just bought last week? it's not valid anymore!"

 Easy E wrote:

I actually encourage people to do something against the "established" orthodoxy of 40K! I grew up in an era of Warhammer where even the models in the RT rulebook were just kit-bashed toys. Yeah, I'm looking at you Orgus Flyer!

You ain't the only one Easy E. I too remember those days. When vehicles were kitbashed from whatever else you had around - or vehicle kits from other sources were used (I had a 1/48 "Crusher Joe" Galleon tank used as a 40k tank for a few years before they released an actual predator kit (the 'dalek' so named for its rounded turret).). Besides - I've seen your scratchbuilds and am envious of them.

Coming from that, this modern idea of "ONLY playing X game with X miniatures" is so bizarre as to not be worth contemplating (Historical players don't do it and they've been playing a lot longer than 40k has been around. Even the 15mm WW2 crowd don't restrict themselves to one maker's models, regardless of whether they play FoW or another WW2 game in 15mm).

nkelsch wrote:
I see a distinct difference between your Crassus and the OP's models. Your model is complete, painted and passes rule of cool.

See this doesn't make any damned sense.

The two pics the OP posted have wonderful representations of the actual 40K models. The Crassus doesn't really look like a Crassus (same basic shape) and has a few plastic weapons stuck on. Yet you see the Crassus as 'complete', whereas the others are not?

 chromedog wrote:
Historical players don't do it and they've been playing a lot longer than 40k has been around.

So no one would mind me using barbie dolls in a WWII game?

How about using my Spartan Hoplites in a Naval game?

I think you'll find that (for the most part) gamers have always used aesthetically appropriate models for the game at hand. It just happens that for some games, the appropriate models only come from a single manufacturer.

That goes without saying really. What he means is that if I'm playing an army of Vikings for SAGA, I may not just use Gripping Beast - I may use Wargames Factory models, Warlord Games etc. So why can't 40k be the same if you use appropriate models?