We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? The Great Crusade seems to have pacified the xenos threat for some time after the Heresy, giving the Imperium time to re-orient itself. Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I think it's important to remember the Deathwatch is not the Ordo Xenos.

What we know about the Ordo Xenos and their founding is that it was before that of the Ordo Hereticus, which was the second century of the 36th millenium.

It makes sense that there would have been alienhunting specialists, given that the Cabal and their plots we see in "Legion" would have fallen under their purview (aliens and alien plots against the Imperium).

I would even go so far as to say it makes sense that they would have Astartes in their numbers, since they would have been better equipped to deal with the militant side of things when compared to your average human.

Going back to the DW corebook, the DW proper (i.e, black-armored Astartes) goes back only some centuries, right? I don't think you answered this before -- does the source give a sense of its own place in time? I mean, is this a millennia-old source referring to a few centuries before itself or a record from the "present" (early M42) referring to late M41?

It seems to be more of a record from the present, as the Jericho Reach Maw Warp Gate was found in 755.M41.

I'm checking for other sources mentioning the "Apocryphon Conclave of Orphite IV".

That's another question -- does the DW corebook source refer to the DW generally or the Jericho Reach conclave in particular?

It's in a section about the Deathwatch in general, so it's safe to say it is referring to the Deathwatch as a whole not just the Jericho Reach.

There's no information on the Deathwatch before events in M41, but that also doesn't mean it's a recent thing. There's no real way of telling.

Another approach is, do we know any SM who have served in the DW for more than two centuries? This will at least give us a minimum time frame.

I don't think we do, but that has more to do with the Deathwatch having "permanent" members being a relatively new bit of fluff.

I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

Don't the DW handle stuff more like genestealer infiltration rather than Waaaaghs?

 Kroothawk wrote:
I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

The Deathwatch does not operate in a vacuum, just like most specialized forces.
Nor do they operate entirely in secret.

They are specialized troops who can be deployed and act on their own initiative, lending their skills and knowledge to the battle at large.


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 Manchu wrote:
Don't the DW handle stuff more like genestealer infiltration rather than Waaaaghs?

Yes and no.

They are just as likely to be deployed to fight a Waagh! by going after the Warboss himself as they are going after a Genestealer brood in a Hive City.

It seems like such a role would have been of immense value long before M41 ("centuries ago"). Another issue: a lot of Chapters, including all the First Founding Chapters, contribute warriors to the Deathwatch. When did they agree to this? Wouldn't a treaty like that be a moment of huge historical significance? It doesn't seem quite right that this would have happened just a few centuries ago, especially given the general bad blood between the SW and the Inquisition. I guess this could be the work of some grandfather clause.

See, here's the way I'm looking at it:

The First Founding Chapters would have been willing to work with the Ordo Xenos since the beginning. After all, hate the Xenos and all that "rawr, humans first!" jazz.
The Apocryphon Conclave just cemented the formation of a specialist organization of Astartes, which would be under Inquisitorial control and operating alongside the Inquisitors themselves in their whole Inquisitioning.

I look at it as a kind of "knowledge sharing exercise", allowing Chapters to commit their forces in a way that will also give them a bit of favor with the Inquisition and 'reward' in the form of that returning Deathwatch veteran bringing the knowledge and tactics they gained while serving in the Deathwatch back to the Chapter.

 Kanluwen wrote:
since the beginning

That's kind of the sticking point.

Is there just one Inquisition and the ordos are just ... flavors? Or is the "Inquisition" the term for the collection of the Ordos? If it's the former, then alien-hunting would surely have fallen within its Imperial remit from the founding of the Inquisition itself. Therefore, no matter when the term "Ordo Xenos" came around, there have always been alien-hunting Inquisitors regardless of whether they were alien-hunting specialists. So our question becomes, at what point did some Inquisitors do nothing but work regarding the xenos? And were these Inquisitors requisitioning Space Marines? Such requisition could probably fall within the "Inquisition can take whatever resources it needs" provision, which undoubtedly rankles with Chapter Masters. The DW then probably came about as the normalization of relations between the Chapters and the Inquisition. Why so late? And why not also with regard to Ordo Hereticus?

The Inquisition is the term for the collection of the Ordos.

There are three Ordos Major: Xenos, Hereticus, and Malleus.
There are a ton of Ordos Minoris, ranging from the Ordo Sepulturum ("Zombie Hunters" who were founded during the 13th Black Crusade) to the Ordo Sicarius (who essentially "police" the Assassin temples).

Why it took so long for the Deathwatch to come about, I do not think we'll ever know.

In regards to the Ordo Hereticus, the Ordo Hereticus is very antagonistic towards the various Astartes Chapters. We've seen this with the Space Wolves, most notably.
The OH is seemingly very closely linked to the Ecclesiarchy.

 Kroothawk wrote:
I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

Deathwatch is used for more specialized missions. i.e. assassinating an Ork Warboss, defeating a powerful Genestealer cult, and so on.

But yes they could be a lot bigger, that'st rue with space marines as a whole though. There's no way 3 Company's of Astartes could even to conquer and hold something the size of the continental U.S., nevermind entire planets. GW is just bad with numbers.

I don't think that is correct. It seems to me that the Inquisition, rather than a particular Ordo, is what Malcador founded and that the Ordos arose as necessary. The difference between the Ordos Majoris and Ordos Minoris then is simply one of scale in time.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
I never understood the purpose of Deathwatch. What's the use of half a dozen specialist fighters when half the sector is flooded with Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau etc . You need the whole IG and all SM chapters to counter them. And no chance to fight those in secret.

Deathwatch is used for more specialized missions. i.e. assassinating an Ork Warboss, defeating a powerful Genestealer cult, and so on.

But yes they could be a lot bigger, that'st rue with space marines as a whole though. There's no way 3 Company's of Astartes could even to conquer and hold something the size of the continental U.S., nevermind entire planets. GW is just bad with numbers.

Astartes are not used to conquer.

They're used like special forces, where they act as a force multiplier and commit acts of sabotage/assassination against the enemy rather than acting as your general infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
I don't think that is correct. It seems to me that the Inquisition, rather than a particular Ordo, is what Malcador founded and that the Ordos arose as necessary. The difference between the Ordos Majoris and Ordos Minoris then is simply one of scale in time.

I would not say it's necessarily of "scale in time" but rather "scale of the threat".

The Assassin Temples, as an example, are a relatively small threat.
Likewise the Ordo Sepulturum is very specialized, dealing solely with the Plague Zombies that cropped up during the 13th Black Crusade.

Scale in time, not scale of time. As in, should the Temples become a very big problem (e.g., during the Beheading), Sicarius would presumably become an Ordo Majoris. Ordo Xenos was likely an Ordo Minoris during the Age of Rebirth, for example, perhaps all the way up to the end of the Redemption Crusades and the Waning. With the advent of resurgent alien threats, especially the tyranid menace, there is no question why Ordo Xenos would be counted an Ordo Majoris by the end of M41.

See, I'd argue that once the Imperium knew about the "Cabal" there is no question that the Ordo Xenos would have been an Ordo Majoris.

And I'd argue that the Cabal only exists in the minds -- or the lies -- of the Alpha Legion.

Not really. The Cabal is described to us from the point of view of an omniscient narrator, not the point of view of Alpharius and the Alpha Legion.

I'm fairly sure that the Cabal remains a relative mystery and unknown, down into the 41st Millennium.

And, given the nature of what 'just happened' in 30K, and given the fact that the Xenos Threat was largely not a major threat back then, there's really no way to place the foundation of the ORDO XENOS back that far.

It is curious to note that we can't place a finger on a calendar to state when it was founded though!

We can place the founding of the Ordo Xenos to before M36 (but after the Horus Heresy) and Deathwatch "a few centuries" before M41.

The Xenos Threat may not have been a "major threat", but it was not one that did not exist.

While you're right Alphy that it is unlikely that Garro was told by the Emperor to fight aliens (the Loxatl? really? that was your example? ), it's not unlikely that Malcador did take aliens into consideration when he (theoretically) founded the Inquisition.

Especially when you take into consideration that Malcador did set into motion the founding of the Grey Knights to deal with Daemons.

An organization called the Cabal existed. That's really all we know about any of it. For all we know, Alpharius Omegon himself/themselves could have engineered the whole thing to subvert his/their Legion. One further thing that we know about the Cabal is that they were wrong: they predicted that if the Alpha Legion joined Horus then the Warmaster would be able to succeed. Their other prediction, that the galaxy would be consumed by the Ruinous Powers in 10,000 to 20,000 years, is no more believable than any other prognostication that has yet to be proven in the passage of time. Finally we can infer from the Cabal's apparent manipulation of the Alpha Legion, that it was not itself a militarily mighty organization. But of primary importance is the question of whether anyone in the Imperium besides the Alpha Legion even knew of the Cabal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We can place the founding of the Ordo Xenos to before M36 (but after the Horus Heresy)

By what argument and upon what sources?

My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

 Manchu wrote:
An organization called the Cabal existed. That's really all we know about any of it. For all we know, Alpharius Omegon himself/themselves could have engineered the whole thing to subvert his/their Legion. One further thing that we know about the Cabal is that they were wrong: they predicted that if the Alpha Legion joined Horus then the Warmaster would be able to succeed. Their other prediction, that the galaxy would be consumed by the Ruinous Powers in 10,000 to 20,000 years, is no more believable than any other prognostication that has yet to be proven in the passage of time. Finally we can infer from the Cabal's apparent manipulation of the Alpha Legion, that it was not itself a militarily mighty organization. But of primary importance is the question of whether anyone in the Imperium besides the Alpha Legion even knew of the Cabal.

The Cabal may not have been a "militarily mighty organization", but the Deathwatch/Ordo Xenos are not strictly dealing with the "military" aspect. They also deal with the more insidious bits, like the supposed Tau weapons dealing that was going on in Necromunda's hive spires.

I'd argue though that the Cabal's apparent manipulation of the Alpha Legion fits with the modus operandi of the Eldar, in that they prefer to manipulate situations to the "best possible advantage".

 Kanluwen wrote:
We can place the founding of the Ordo Xenos to before M36 (but after the Horus Heresy)

By what argument and upon what sources?

The Ordo Hereticus was founded much later than the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus, created after the Age of Apostasy which occurred during the second century of the 36th millennium. The Apostasy and the many heresies that took root during the anarchy (most notably the Plague of Unbelief), had severely destabilized the Imperium in a way not seen since the Horus Heresy.

I'm working secondhand on that one, as it is supposedly from "Codex: Witch Hunters" and I do not have a copy of that anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

The Deathwatch is no longer "just" about fighting the Xenos (although technically it never was, as they also specialized in recovering alien artifacts and technology), but rather the enemies of the Imperium at large.
Just like the Grey Knights are no longer "just" about fighting the Daemon, but the enemies of the Imperium.

Both organizations are certainly specialized and better equipped for one type of enemy, but they can deal with the others in a pinch if necessary.

The Deathwatch RPG is not set during current 40k (999M41). While I don't have my books with me at the moment, off the top of my head it was at least at least 150 years earlier.

Just did a bit of searching around and according to the Jericho Reach timeline available online, Watch Fortress Erioch had marines in it serving in the deathwatch as long ago as M35, which must mean the deathwatch had been around for at least that long.

And here I always thought that Deathwatch was founded way back in M31'st when Legions were disbanded into Chapters.
It is logical to me, two major Ordos were founded then - one to fight Chaos and one to fight aliens. Ordo Malleus already had Grey Knights as it's military arm, so it was only logical that Ordo Xenos military arm consist of Astartes too - but made up from elite Astartes driven from several Chapters.
I don't know how they stand now as Grey Knights represent military arm of entire Inquisition ( thank you Ward ).

The Inquisition's roots are that they were simple witchhunters. Tasked with harvesting psykers for the choir. The black ships even predate the Inquisition. Those guys became The Inquisition. It just kept growing and growing in power and jurisdiction until everything was their mandate.

Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

 Manchu wrote:
Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

Yes, that's the upper echelon but obviously they brought in the black ships already set up under their command. That is the main duty of the Inquisition. The need to create the Inquisition most likely happened when they unified the old school witchhunters with some sort of Malleus-like (possibly the actual Malleus) cadre of daemonhunters.

The Sisters of Silence were not the Inquisition, plain and simple.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

Yes, that's the upper echelon but obviously they brought in the black ships already set up under their command. That is the main duty of the Inquisition. The need to create the Inquisition most likely happened when they unified the old school witchhunters with some sort of Malleus-like (possibly the actual Malleus) cadre of daemonhunters.

I don't believe so. The black ships were always under the command of the adeptus astra telepathica, which is a completely separate organization from the Inquisition.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

So much smart ass - I'm not sure how it can all be contained in a single individual...

 Kanluwen wrote:
That, again, is the assumption but we haven't seen too much which suggests, to me at least, that is the case.

I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

Hmm...

I'm going to say that the Ordo Malleus and Xenos were both the original Ordo's of the Inquisition, with the Hereticus added much later. The Deathwatch didn't have to exist in M32 even if the Ordo Xenos did though.

Deathwatch still doesn't make sense.
When fighting Tyranids, I'd rather call an Ultramarine who successfully defended Ultramar against them, than a guy "specialized in fighting anything non-human". When I plan an assault on an Ork boss, I'd rather call assault specialists like Blood Angels etc.

You can't be specialized in fighting anything non-human. At best you have experience fighting one or two specific Xeno species, but not all of them from Enslaver to Necrons to Tau.

Stop thinking of it from an end-result perspective. The issue is that there are some Inquisitors who specialize in fighting Xenos. Some of them fight Orks, some of them fight Eldar, etc, etc, etc. But they pool their resources and knowledge under the umbrella of Ordo Xenos. Ordo Xenos, like any other Inquisitorial formation, can requisition any resource in the Imperium -- including Space Marines. But recklessly handling relations with Astartes isn't a great way to get results. Therefore, the requisitioning of Astartes warriors by Ordo Xenos is formalized and the Deathwatch is born.

 Manchu wrote:
Stop thinking of it from an end-result perspective. The issue is that there are some Inquisitors who specialize in fighting Xenos. Some of them fight Orks, some of them fight Eldar, etc, etc, etc. But they pool their resources and knowledge under the umbrella of Ordo Xenos. Ordo Xenos, like any other Inquisitorial formation, can requisition any resource in the Imperium -- including Space Marines. But recklessly handling relations with Astartes isn't a great way to get results. Therefore, the requisitioning of Astartes warriors by Ordo Xenos is formalized and the Deathwatch is born.

Good point - and probably more to what 'actually' happened.

Though I'd still argue that any Xenos branch of the Inquisition probably didn't gain momentum until well after the Scourging.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
My Loxatl example was on purpose - to show the absurdity of your idea that Garro would found the Ordo... Xenos.

In the wake of the largest betrayal and calamity to befall Mankind, I think that an Organization to deal with that, and not aliens, would probably be at the forefront.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

So much smart ass - I'm not sure how it can all be contained in a single individual...

 Kanluwen wrote:
That, again, is the assumption but we haven't seen too much which suggests, to me at least, that is the case.

I'm more inclined to think that he is going to be the "founder" of the Deathwatch, given the way the Deathwatch is now evolving from the RPG. It's a given that he will be a founding member of the Inquisition though.

I think it's a rather sensible evolution, where not only do they deal with aliens but everything and anything that the Astartes could reasonably be needed for but the Grey Knights might not be needed for.

Hmm...

Ordo Xenos != Deathwatch.

I know it's a silly distinction, but it's an important one. The Ordo Xenos is entirely sensible to be founded at the same time as the Ordo Malleus.
The Ordo Hereticus would come later, after Vandire's Reign of Blood and the whole religious shenanigans thing, as a way to police the organizations of the Imperium and prevent one man from gathering power like that again.

The reason I suggested, in quotes, that Garro "founded" the Deathwatch is that it could have been an organization which was not the same as what we see now. It could have been an organization made up of Loyalists from the Traitor Legions who were given a chance to continue their service to the Imperium.

I have no problem with Ordo Xenos, that makes sense to me.

I think Deathwatch is just a formalization of the Astartes obligation to help the Inquisition. It saves face for the Chapters to send recruits rather than having them taken plus, as Kan mentioned, the Chapters might get back some valuable knowledge (as in DoWII).

Where's the Atomic Facepalm GIF when you need it?

There is NO Deatwatch without the Ordo Xenos.

Kan, are you really suggesting (possibly without knowing it) that Garro helped found Ordo Xenos rather than the Deathwatch?

At this point, I am thinking Garro and the seven other Astartes plus the four humans Malcador found for the Emperor simply founded "the Inquisition" and all Ordos came afterward, organizationally speaking.

 Manchu wrote:
Kan, are you really suggesting (possibly without knowing it) that Garro helped found Ordo Xenos rather than the Deathwatch?

At this point, I am thinking Garro and the seven other Astartes plus the four humans Malcador found for the Emperor simply founded "the Inquisition" and all Ordos came afterward, organizationally speaking.

I am not, or at least that is not my intent.

What I'm suggesting (or my intent is to suggest it at least) is that Garro helped, in the course of helping to found the Inquisition, found an organization within the Inquisition (or the organization which would be the Inquisition later) that utilized Astartes from various Legions. This organization would be founded primarily of Loyalists from the Traitor Legions with a number of individuals from Loyalist Legions who operated with no ties to Primarchs or Legions (hence the "clean" gray armor that we see Garro wearing in the audiobooks, which is reminiscent of modern special forces when operating in advisory capacities or deniable situations) and whose first loyalty is to Malcador the Sigilite.

That, to me, is an organization very similar to the Deathwatch. They have no ties to their Chapter while they serve within the Deathwatch, beyond retaining a shoulderpad with the Chapter's heraldry. Their first loyalty is to the Deathwatch, and by extension the Imperium and its representatives in the Inquisition.

This group you're referring to does NOT sound like the Deathwatch to me.

"Deathwatchers" are not permanent members. They go back to their home Chapters ... Garro and Friends cannot do this. There is some argument that Black Shields also have no Chapter to which they return but they are the exception. If Garro and Friends founded this hypothetical institution according to their own experience, Black Shields would rather be the rule. Furthermore, Deathwatchers aren't only loyal to the DW. That's why they maintain their Chapter heraldry. On this score, what you're describing sounds more like the GK than DW to me.

 Manchu wrote:
This group you're referring to does NOT sound like the Deathwatch to me.

That's why in my post for the Black Library thread I had referenced a kind of "proto-Deathwatch" after further consideration. It might not be the Deathwatch as WE know it now, but there very well could be an organization which could have served as an inspiration later on.

"Deathwatchers" are not permanent members. They go back to their home Chapters ... Garro and Friends cannot do this. There is some argument that Black Shields also have no Chapter to which they return but they are the exception. If Garro and Friends founded this hypothetical institution according to their own experience, Black Shields would rather be the rule.

I'd argue that we do not know yet entirely about this one. Rubio, for example, could return to the Ultramarines with (potentially) no censure. As the Knights-Errant(Jim Swallow's actual term for Garro and his company, referenced here) died off, we could see a shift towards Astartes who would be deemed "Black Shields" being the exception rather than the rule.

There's a lot of time between the Heresy and its immediate aftermath and the current timeframe.
Which on further thought actually is part of the problem...
The immediate aftermath of the Heresy and the founding of the Inquisition has a bit of leeway for things like the formation of Ordos and how they would behave militarily. I cannot imagine them having Chambers Militant right at the outset, given that the Horus Heresy is so fresh on the minds of the Imperium.

Furthermore, Deathwatchers aren't only loyal to the DW. That's why they maintain their Chapter heraldry. On this score, what you're describing sounds more like the GK than DW to me.

They maintain their Chapter heraldry so as not to offend the armor's machine spirit and as a tie to where they come from.
It is certainly a bit of a stretch and a lot of speculation on my part, but something about it feels like the "right" track where Swallow is heading with Garro's Knights-Errant.

You're really grasping at straws here Kan, trying to shoehorn Xenos/Deathwatch into an immediate post-Heresy start.

Highly unlikely and improbable.

Which means, that's the New History we'll probably get!

Actually, probably not.

The easier approach would be to admit that you're initial theory is not really possible (i.e., wrong)...

The "machine spirit" bit is self-consciously superstitious fluff. But from a completely in-universe perspective, consider why the machine spirit might be offended if the heraldry is obscured and why a Black Shield doesn't have this issue.

 Alpharius wrote:
You're really grasping at straws here Kan, trying to shoehorn Xenos/Deathwatch into an immediate post-Heresy start.

Highly unlikely and improbable.

Which means, that's the New History we'll probably get!

Actually, probably not.

See, everything we have suggests that the Ordo Xenos has existed since the Inquisition's inception. We can (relatively safely) assume that the Imperium was not so dense as to consider there being no more alien threats.

I'll grant that we may not see the Deathwatch as a recognizable entity, but I still maintain that we might see some kind of precursor organization!

The easier approach would be to admit that you're initial theory is not really possible (i.e., wrong)...

NEVER!

Is there really any evidence that either Ordo Malleus or Ordo Xenos existed since the foundation of the Inquisition? The closest we have (to my knowledge) is Malcador's founding of the GK. But the GK is a part of the Ordo Malleus and not the Ordo Malleus itself. The Daemonhammer could certainly have come later on and incorporated into itself the Grey Knights.

 Manchu wrote:
Is there really any evidence that either Ordo Malleus or Ordo Xenos existed since the foundation of the Inquisition? The closest we have (to my knowledge) is Malcador's founding of the GK. But the GK is a part of the Ordo Malleus and not the Ordo Malleus itself. The Daemonhammer could certainly have come later on and incorporated into itself the Grey Knights.

Codex: Daemonhunters, page 6

Legend tells that it was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret Chapter of Space Marines. The fragile Imperium had only just survived the galactic civil war of the Horus Heresy, and was still very much at the mercy of the powers of Chaos. Where other Space Marine Chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to have come from the Emperor's own flesh. The Ordo Malleus was in its infancy at this time, the corruption of Horus lending new impetus to the creation of an order tasked with the hunting and elimination of the daemonic.

I could not find a reference to it in the Grey Knights codex, but that neither confirm/denies it for the time being.

It could be retconned though at some point.

jareddm wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Nope. The Inquisition was founded by Malcador who chose eight Astartes and four normal humans at the direction of the Emperor.

Yes, that's the upper echelon but obviously they brought in the black ships already set up under their command. That is the main duty of the Inquisition. The need to create the Inquisition most likely happened when they unified the old school witchhunters with some sort of Malleus-like (possibly the actual Malleus) cadre of daemonhunters.

I don't believe so. The black ships were always under the command of the adeptus astra telepathica, which is a completely separate organization from the Inquisition.

Aren't the Black Ships currently under the command of the Inquisition?

But not back then when there was no Inquisition.

Even in current 40k they're not under the inquisition. The adeptus astra telepathica is split in two broad groups. Half is the scholastica psykana which trains psykers, the other half is the black ship fleets. Whether or not sisters of silence still exist in modern 40k is still debatable, but if they did, I would put them under the astra telephathica as well.

 Manchu wrote:
We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I believe that the Deathwatch was founded during the Heresy making it M31, and whilst the primarchs still lived I would imagine that the space marines formed the core of any anti-xenos fighting. Although that is admittedly a guess as I'm not familiar with the Inquistion.

 AustonT wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I believe that the Deathwatch was founded during the Heresy making it M31, and whilst the primarchs still lived I would imagine that the space marines formed the core of any anti-xenos fighting. Although that is admittedly a guess as I'm not familiar with the Inquistion.

There's nothing that actually says this though, so... where are you getting your guess material from?

jareddm wrote:
Even in current 40k they're not under the inquisition. The adeptus astra telepathica is split in two broad groups. Half is the scholastica psykana which trains psykers, the other half is the black ship fleets. Whether or not sisters of silence still exist in modern 40k is still debatable, but if they did, I would put them under the astra telephathica as well.

Do you have something to back that up? I think the Black Ships are essentially the Inquisition's fleet.


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Well according to Lexicanum there's actually two types of Black ships. Inquisitorial ones and Adeptus Astra Telepathetica ones. Weird....

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Even in current 40k they're not under the inquisition. The adeptus astra telepathica is split in two broad groups. Half is the scholastica psykana which trains psykers, the other half is the black ship fleets. Whether or not sisters of silence still exist in modern 40k is still debatable, but if they did, I would put them under the astra telephathica as well.

Do you have something to back that up? I think the Black Ships are essentially the Inquisition's fleet.


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Well according to Lexicanum there's actually two types of Black ships. Inquisitorial ones and Adeptus Astra Telepathetica ones. Weird....

Codex Imperialis page 36.

The Inquisition black ships aren't the Back Ships that everyone knows though. They're basically just a fleet of ships for the Inquisition can do what they wish with. The Black Ships that we know are fully controlled by the Astra Telepathica, but, inquisitors have been known to ride them to get "first dibs" on any quality psykers that might be found.

@AustonT: That's what I would have thought too but the Deathwatch core book apparently says the DW was founded much more recently (early M41 at the earliest).

 Manchu wrote:
@AustonT: That's what I would have thought too but the Deathwatch core book apparently says the DW was founded much more recently (early M41 at the earliest).

Early is relative since, as I stated earlier, the Jericho Reach has had a Deathwatch presence since M35, as stated on the deathwatch timeline, Know No Fear

It seems an odd usage to say "centuries ago" when what you really mean is "over five millennia ago."

 Manchu wrote:
It seems an odd usage to say "centuries ago" when what you really mean is "over five millennia ago."

As true as that may be, I'm willing to accept a concrete date over hyperbole.

On the other hand, 50 centuries is technically still "centuries ago" just as it would also be "years ago"

Or "seconds ago." But only a moron talks that way.

Alpharius wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I believe that the Deathwatch was founded during the Heresy making it M31, and whilst the primarchs still lived I would imagine that the space marines formed the core of any anti-xenos fighting. Although that is admittedly a guess as I'm not familiar with the Inquistion.

There's nothing that actually says this though, so... where are you getting your guess material from?

Index Astartes II P40
"Since the Dawn of the Imperium two brotherhoods of Space Marines have fought these foes and defeated them. They are the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights."

Manchu wrote:@AustonT: That's what I would have thought too but the Deathwatch core book apparently says the DW was founded much more recently (early M41 at the earliest).

Deathwatch: Know no Fear places the Deathwatch's arrival in Jericho Reach in M35 so that can't possibly be the case. Its on like page three. The IA article also says "thousands of years" so at the very earliest the Deathwatch Dates to M39 and like I said it's more likely it dates to M31.

That certainly makes much more sense to me, intuitively.

 AustonT wrote:

Deathwatch: Know no Fear places the Deathwatch's arrival in Jericho Reach in M35 so that can't possibly be the case. Its on like page three. The IA article also says "thousands of years" so at the very earliest the Deathwatch Dates to M39 and like I said it's more likely it dates to M31.

Wait, how could M39 be the earliest? If IA II says "dawn of the imperium" (which can mean all sorts of things but for now I'll assume M31) and the event in Know No Fear happened in early M35, then wouldn't the deathwatch founding have to have been between M31 and early M35? While I'm more inclined to lean closer to M35, I wouldn't say there's anymore concrete evidence that could truly reduce that range of time.

I think he actually meant, at the latest.

Yeah, latest.

Ah, okay. No problems then.

Wait what. Which part of the imperium "dawned" closer to M35 exactly?

 AustonT wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

 AustonT wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
We know Ordo Hereticus did not appear until after the Age of Apostasy. Although the exact date of the founding of the GK is unknown, it had to be before the end of Malcador's life since he founded them. But what about the Deathwatch? Were there alien-hunting specialist Inquisitors in the meantime?

I believe that the Deathwatch was founded during the Heresy making it M31, and whilst the primarchs still lived I would imagine that the space marines formed the core of any anti-xenos fighting. Although that is admittedly a guess as I'm not familiar with the Inquistion.

There's nothing that actually says this though, so... where are you getting your guess material from?

Index Astartes II P40
"Since the Dawn of the Imperium two brotherhoods of Space Marines have fought these foes and defeated them. They are the Deathwatch and the Grey Knights."

Manchu wrote:@AustonT: That's what I would have thought too but the Deathwatch core book apparently says the DW was founded much more recently (early M41 at the earliest).

Deathwatch: Know no Fear places the Deathwatch's arrival in Jericho Reach in M35 so that can't possibly be the case. Its on like page three. The IA article also says "thousands of years" so at the very earliest the Deathwatch Dates to M39 and like I said it's more likely it dates to M31.

Still unlikely to me, especially as nothing you said actually puts a date on things, other than dates that conveniently enough don't match your theory!

They match my theory just fine. Older fluff was pretty intentionally vague. And the hard dates I got are A: not from GW and B: much newer. They do set an "at least" date which is good enough to disprove this nonsense that DW originated M31. The only way you'll get a hard date of origin will be the Matt Ward Ordos Xenos codex sure to come out sooner or later. Then we'll know.

I think it's more likely that the "from the beginning" theory will be disproven in the course of the Garro series.

The reason I'd push the founding to later than M31 is because the description of the Apocryphon Conclave makes it sound like the Ordo Xenos had already been firmly established for some time when the decision to establish the deathwatch was made.

I don't have any deathwatch book and haven't read any BL books
however I have been messing around with with a deathwatch codex, most of the information I'm getting is from here
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Deathwatch
the reason I bring it up is because it mentions deathwatch's origins around early M31
this says it was formed from loyalist death guard how arrived to warn of horus being a traitor
I'm not sure if it was mentioned before in the posts, I might have missed it, if so sorry for repeating

 Hive Fleet Lazarus wrote:
I don't have any deathwatch book and haven't read any BL books
however I have been messing around with with a deathwatch codex, most of the information I'm getting is from here
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Deathwatch
the reason I bring it up is because it mentions deathwatch's origins around early M31
this says it was formed from loyalist death guard how arrived to warn of horus being a traitor
I'm not sure if it was mentioned before in the posts, I might have missed it, if so sorry for repeating

Complete and utter tripe.

jareddm wrote:
Complete and utter tripe.

Pretty much. For all it's faults, Lexicanum is a far, far, far better place to start your research.

That "from the dawn of the Imperium" thing is pretty convincing. It must have been M31.

 Manchu wrote:

jareddm wrote:
Complete and utter tripe.

Pretty much. For all it's faults, Lexicanum is a far, far, far better place to start your research.

Because at least they try to cite.

That and they don't just throw in what our Melissia would call "fan spank" whenever (although it does happen occasionally).

EDIT: I didn't know spank was autofiltered now.

good to know, I'll use them a lot less now, thanks

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
That "from the dawn of the Imperium" thing is pretty convincing. It must have been M31.

Yeah...no.

From the blurb on HORUS RISING:

Under the benevolent leadership of the Immortal Emperor the Imperium of Man has stretched out across the galaxy. On the eve of victory, the Emperor leaves the front lines, entrusting the great crusade to his favorite son, Horus. Promoted to Warmaster, the idealistic Horus tries to carry out the Emperor'sgrand design, all the while the seeds of heresy and rebellion have been sowed amongst his brothers.

It was pretty much "The Imperium" once the Emperor settled Terra's issues.

That line about Deathwatch and Grey Knights being around since the 'dawn of the Imperium' - more or less the usual flowery hype found in just about every GW article.

Oh, that from the beggining thing was 40K wikia? Nevermind then.

 Manchu wrote:
That and they don't just throw in what our Melissia would call "fan spank" whenever (although it does happen occasionally).

EDIT: I didn't know spank was autofiltered now.

What was labeled "tripe" isn't fan spank, it's the end of Flight of the Eisenstein plus wishful thinking. Nothing indicates what branches of he inquisition they went to if any at all. but the book does strongly imply that they become members of the inquisition. Not enough to say with any certainty.
Arguably anything from a Swallow book is worse thank fan spank. Though I've heard his HH fare is above his usual level.


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Oh, that from the beggining thing was 40K wikia? Nevermind then.

No it's from Index Astartes and Chapter Approved. Alpharius just doesn't like it.

It just isn't right.

There were no Grey Knights or Deathwatch at 'The Dawn of The Imperium".

There were Grey Knights sometime in M31, during the Second Founding.

To date, nothing definitively puts the Deathwatch that far back.

Maybe they'll retcon/backdate it to then at some point, but until they do, it appears as if AustonT just doesn't like being wrong.

Dawn's a pretty relative term. I think there's something weird that The Age of Imperium doesn't even begin till after The Emperor's entombment. Maybe that's what they're talking about. I think it's pretty reasonable that special teams of Astartes where assembled to deal with special Xenos problems. In the BRB they mention The Imperium was immediately set upon by aliens looking to take advantage of The Imperium's weakened state. I think The Deathwatch or some sort of proto-deathwatch was around in M31. I just don't think Garro had anything to do with it.

 Alpharius wrote:
It just isn't right.

There were no Grey Knights or Deathwatch at 'The Dawn of The Imperium".

There were Grey Knights sometime in M31, during the Second Founding.

To date, nothing definitively puts the Deathwatch that far back.

Maybe they'll retcon/backdate it to then at some point, but until they do, it appears as if AustonT just doesn't like being wrong.

You have yet to contribute anything that refutes it other than your opinion.

All of what you quoted was straight up fact!

Are you not paying attention?

It doesn't appear that you are, so, I'll remind you this isn't the OT forum and hope for the best!

"Dawn of the Imperium" does sound like flowery nothings as Alpharius mentioned, same as with "centuries ago" from the DW core book. That leaves us with the M35 date AustonT found in the other DW book, which is just when the DW arrived in the Jericho reach. So it has to be between M31 and M35 with no particularly good reason to suggest earlier or later within that window.

Right!

Though at this point, I'm not exactly sure what AustonT is even arguing about!