I don'ti see them as being evil for many reasons. First of all it makes it look like the regular Eldar are good, their not they are capricious and utterly zenophobic. Hell after the Fall the regular Eldar wouldn't offer safe Haven for Eldar not on craft or maiden world so in a lot of ways the parasitic Dark Eldar are basically their fault.

Number two, their doing what they have to do to survive. Killing and torturing is the only way to survive for them, I really can't blame them. The Emperor himself needs sacrifices to survive. I could say more but I feel I've already proven my point.

evil probably not normal eldar would slaughter a world of people on the the of chance that one guardsmen from a regiment raised there in 30 years will kill a single eldar.. but DE they are centinaly quite a bit darker in there methods.

Though i do follow your reasoning, it doesn't make it right. for the torture thing i can go back to... "if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?" The dark eldar are also evil because they where offered a choice, continue along their path and become what they are or try to redeem themselves (lexicanum fall of the eldar) if given a choice between good and bad and knowingly choosing bad is evil. no way around it.

but both types of eldar kill countless innocents to survive just in different fashions would that make them both evil just because the DE are more gruesome about how doesnt change anything.

Though i do follow your reasoning, it doesn't make it right. for the torture thing i can go back to... "if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you?" The dark eldar are also evil because they where offered a choice, continue along their path and become what they are or try to redeem themselves (lexicanum fall of the eldar) if given a choice between good and bad and knowingly choosing bad is evil. no way around it.

What choice, their kin abandoned them and their souls were slowly being drained, what chance for redemption did they have besides waiting to be tortured for eternity.

That really depends on your definition of evil.

I would follow the line of reasoning that causing unnecessary pain is plenty evil, and by that logic, Dark Eldar are evil.

Of course, you could argue that it's not 'unnecessary' pain because they have to actually feed upon that pain to survive.

However, the mere fact that they take such joy in causing said pain makes them, in my book, pretty damn evil.

Of course not.

ONLY Humans can be evil.
Tyranids aren't evil, they are just following a biological imperative. As are the orks (they were constructed to fight, and fight is what they do).

Evil is a human moral construct. Alien races don't have to comply with human morality.


Causing unnecessary pain is sometimes morally right.
I'd love to inflict it on the makers of Irritainment television (they like to call it "reality TV" - shows like BB, [insert Country] doesn't have talent, X-factor, etc)

I can totally see your point here, but the eldar, for the most part, at least feel a smidgen of regret for what they do occasionally. The dark eldar, however, fully embrace and explore what they "have" to do to survive and go ever deeper into depravity.

 chromedog wrote:
Of course not.

ONLY Humans can be evil.
Tyranids aren't evil, they are just following a biological imperative. As are the orks (they were constructed to fight, and fight is what they do).

Evil is a human moral construct. Alien races don't have to comply with human morality.


Causing unnecessary pain is sometimes morally right.
I'd love to inflict it on the makers of Irritainment television (they like to call it "reality TV" - shows like BB, [insert Country] doesn't have talent, X-factor, etc)

Except the alien races in 40k, as is not uncommon, are(for the most part) written in such a way that we humans can understand, sympathize with, or despise them as we would actual humans, so I think that's not an accurate point to say we can't judge them by our own standards(at least to some degree).

In regard to Dark Eldar being evil, if you accept the contemporary view of the concepts of the good/evil for the purposes of diving the intent of the writers, they come off as, well, evil. I would go so far as to say they're written in such a way as to serve as an 'obviously evil' element(everything about them even *looks* evil).

[Updated] Looking at the codex, literally one of the first things it says is "This is a tale of evil incarnate"...

Yeah, uh, no.


There's not a single school on ethics, morals, or values that would agree with the OP, lol. The Dark Eldar are utterly and completely evil. So admittedly so, that both of their codex books preface themselves describing the Dark Eldar as evil. This is a race that takes slaves for pleasure, torture for pleasure, and sadism... for pleasure.

The Eldar's fate was of their own doing. The measures they now find themselves faced with having to engage in to avoid having their souls devoured by Slaanesh does not serve as an excuse for actually engaging in those measures, lol.

They may not have a choice to cause pain, but they don't just sup on it ever now and again. They slaughter millions because they're bored. And that's BEFORE the sadist/masochist business.

As veteran Sergeant touched upon.

The Dark Eldar did all these sadistic, hedonistic, nurderous things before the fall and the birth of Slaanesh. They did them because they enjoyed doing them, its only after the birth of Slaanesh and the Fall that they only need to do them. Its still wrong.

Think of it this way.

A person enjoys class A narcotics, then over time becomes an addict. The addict NEEDS to do the narcotics. So they mug people rob, and other various illicit activities to get/buy their next hit.
It doesn't mean that suddenly use of Class A narcotics is acceptable because that poor fellow is an addict and not their fault so its all socially acceptable, which is what your implying.

DE are Evil, if we are using absolute alignment terms.

They do nasty things to other sentients, and get a high from their non-consensual suffering.

Doesn't make the regular Eldar Good.

Problem is, Good and Evil are absolutes. Real morality is a deal fuzzier, but even among DE they fully understand that they are a selfish, vicious and sadistic bunch. These qualities are highly prized. in DE society.

By almost anyone's standards, including their own, DE are non-nice people with breathtaking depravity-management issues.

I really enjoy you trying to convince anyone that rape and sadism are somehow tragically heroic under any circumstances. I render your entire argument invalid by pointing out that 40k is Grimdark, and there is by definition, little, if any, good left in any of the known factions. The IoM itself is a regime of supported tyranny that, in a nutshell is "good" because it has no other option left but to strive blindly forward at full tilt with the screaming masses of trillions of souls behind it. By our standards of good on this planet however, the IoM would be so evil that even Hitler would have to sit down and take lessons in brutality from the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy and the Administratum.

The alien races are written from a human propaganda point of view for the most part.

This alone negates that entire angle.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are no more evil than the human imperium, and in some cases, the imperium is more evil (1000 psykers are sacrificed PER DAY to keep one superannuated corpse going.). Entire worlds are put to the sword, and the daily loss of millions of lives are also not mere peccadilloes.

Many of the deaths the imperium causes are justified, though. They don't go killing already tortured slaves for the heck of it, and they certainly don't enjoy it. They actually believe that what they are doing is right, so it doesn't make them bad.

If you actually, properly believe killing somebody is the honest, true, good way to go, then really, you aren't evil.

The Imperium sacrifices a thousand psykers per day because if they didn't, their only means of FTL space travel and communications would go down, and the galaxy would become flooded by Chaos, which is good for no one but Chaos.

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape, and backstab primarily because they enjoy it, and notably they do this to eachother, so the tragic angle is rendereded entirely moot.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Many of the deaths the imperium causes are justified, though. They don't go killing already tortured slaves for the heck of it, and they certainly don't enjoy it. They actually believe that what they are doing is right, so it doesn't make them bad.

If you actually, properly believe killing somebody is the honest, true, good way to go, then really, you aren't evil.

Being deluded is no "get out of the jail" ticket. Otherwise every murderous fanatic, no matter if his/her motivation is race/ religion/ the colour of your hair, could be excused simply because he/her believed in the righteous nature of his/her crimes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Imperium sacrifices a thousand psykers per day because if they didn't, their only means of FTL space travel and communications would go down, and the galaxy would become flooded by Chaos, which is good for no one but Chaos.

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape, and backstab primarily because they enjoy it, and notably they do this to eachother, so the tragic angle is rendereded entirely moot.

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape and backstab because if they didn't, their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh and their race would cease to exist, which is good for no one but Chaos.

See what I did there?

The argument 'A cannot be evil, because A makes B look good in comparison, and B is not good' is quite possibly the craziest bit of logic I've seen in a long time. Kudos!

In Warhammer 40,000 no-one is good, no-one is evil, every race & faction is a shade of grey. By our standards of 'good' and 'evil' every faction is utterly evil but also capable of good.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Many of the deaths the imperium causes are justified, though. They don't go killing already tortured slaves for the heck of it, and they certainly don't enjoy it. They actually believe that what they are doing is right, so it doesn't make them bad.

If you actually, properly believe killing somebody is the honest, true, good way to go, then really, you aren't evil.

I guess not. That's a pretty Evel Knieval style jump over a logic gap though.

Ultimately, the society is evil. There's no such thing as cultural relativism on issues like this. You can't wave off the actions of a society simply because "that's the way they are". I mean, the Imperium is pretty questionable as well. Nobody would ever suggest that they are "good", or even morally "okay". But at least all of their atrocities are done under the belief of a greater benefit to the society. The Dark Eldar just do all of this stuff for purely selfish reasons, and to offset an act of their own doing.

If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

The DE codex has that one bit of fluff about (I believe) Lady Malys raiding a mechanicum world in order to destroy some medical research that would have cured or prevented some disease. This raid was done as part of a challenge to hurt the Imperium. Causing pain and suffering just to cause pain and suffering. That's evil.

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

Immortality is just a side effect. Their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh if they don't perform the acts they do. I'm not saying they are not evil. They are evil. But would the chicken consider you evil because you need it for survival?

 chromedog wrote:
The alien races are written from a human propaganda point of view for the most part.

This alone negates that entire angle.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are no more evil than the human imperium, and in some cases, the imperium is more evil (1000 psykers are sacrificed PER DAY to keep one superannuated corpse going.). Entire worlds are put to the sword, and the daily loss of millions of lives are also not mere peccadilloes.

10,000 pyskers power the golden throne - As for the death toll, the imperium does what they need to survive

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

Immortality is just a side effect. Their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh if they don't perform the acts they do. I'm not saying they are not evil. They are evil. But would the chicken consider you evil because you need it for survival?

The problem is, the morality trap is that having their souls eaten by Slaanesh is a predicament of their own causing. A person is born needing to eat stuff. Chickens occupy the unenviable lower spot on the food chain. The Eldar weren't born being so uncontrollably bangy that they unleashed the Evil God of Raping Stuff. They did that themselves, lol. Rather than accept their fate, they realized that if they were even more rapey, that Slaanesh would cut them a break.

So, yeah, the Dark Eldar are ultimately "doing what they have to to survive", but that also stems from a conscious decision to survive by consuming others. The rest of it, the torture, the slavery, etc. That's just for fun.

 chromedog wrote:
The alien races are written from a human propaganda point of view for the most part.

This alone negates that entire angle.

It would perhaps be more accurate to say that they are no more evil than the human imperium, and in some cases, the imperium is more evil (1000 psykers are sacrificed PER DAY to keep one superannuated corpse going.). Entire worlds are put to the sword, and the daily loss of millions of lives are also not mere peccadilloes.

Not sure where you're getting the 'human propaganda' part. What specific parts of their background writing do you think are meant to be taken as propaganda? The intent of writers to convey "hey, these are really, really, bad guys, no seriously" seems blatant and straight-forward.

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
I don'ti see them as being evil for many reasons. First of all it makes it look like the regular Eldar are good, their not they are capricious and utterly zenophobic. Hell after the Fall the regular Eldar wouldn't offer safe Haven for Eldar not on craft or maiden world so in a lot of ways the parasitic Dark Eldar are basically their fault.

Regular Eldar are far preferable to Dark Eldar, but they still aren't "good" imo.

Number two, their doing what they have to do to survive. Killing and torturing is the only way to survive for them, I really can't blame them. The Emperor himself needs sacrifices to survive. I could say more but I feel I've already proven my point.

The problem is, they deeply enjoy killing and torturing. So this argument doesn't fly. Not that it'd really fly anyway because there's always the Eldar option for them, using the Path systems then going to a spirit stone.

@OP: Why are you trying to prove DE aren't evil?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The problem is, the morality trap is that having their souls eaten by Slaanesh is a predicament of their own causing. A person is born needing to eat stuff. Chickens occupy the unenviable lower spot on the food chain. The Eldar weren't born being so uncontrollably bangy that they unleashed the Evil God of Raping Stuff. They did that themselves, lol. Rather than accept their fate, they realized that if they were even more rapey, that Slaanesh would cut them a break.

So, yeah, the Dark Eldar are ultimately "doing what they have to to survive", but that also stems from a conscious decision to survive by consuming others. The rest of it, the torture, the slavery, etc. That's just for fun.

No. It's because of Eldar that lived before current DE.

So a Dark Eldar is not not justified because members of his race did something long before he was born. It is his own choosing. Dark Eldar do evil and so they should perish.
A human is justified because members of his race did something long before he was born. It is not his own choosing. Humans have to be do evil to survive.
Sure sure, it's totally different.

Macok, humans of the past did not decide that the species would forever require protein to survive.

 Manchu wrote:
Macok, humans of the past did not decide that the species would forever require protein to survive.

Neither did the Dark Eldar. They also did not choose to be forced to cause pain or have their own soul plucked and tortured for eternity.

Food has nothing to do with this discussion. Imperium is not bad because it eats. It's a very bad example / metaphor.
It's about Sins of our Fathers. You can't just say that one race is forced to do something and another one chose it's fate.

The Eldar of ages past sank into hideous decadence and brought a reckoning upon themselves. Those who never changed but have yet to experience said reckoning are the Dark Eldar. The DE do not have to rape and torture to survive. They could like their dour brothers of the Craftworlds pursue a life of discipline and integrity. The DE choose to continue on with the decadence that brought Slaanesh into existence in the first place. As their depravity is freely chosen, they are morally culpable for it. There is no need to talk about humanity to make this judgment.

 Manchu wrote:
The Eldar of ages past sank into hideous decadence and brought a reckoning upon themselves. Those who never changed but have yet to experience said reckoning are the Dark Eldar. The DE do not have to rape and torture to survive. They could like their dour brothers of the Craftworlds pursue a life of discipline and integrity. The DE choose to continue on with the decadence that brought Slaanesh into existence in the first place. As their depravity is freely chosen, they are morally culpable for it. There is no need to talk about humanity to make this judgment.

This. The DE are the Eldar who never changed their ways after the fall. They might not be the exact same Eldar who caused the fall, but they are the same in deed and spirit.

 Mandor wrote:

The Dark Eldar maim, kill, torture, rape and backstab because if they didn't, their souls would be consumed by Slaanesh and their race would cease to exist, which is good for no one but Chaos.

See what I did there?

Actually, I see the galaxy would stand to benefit if a race like the Dark Eldar just ceased to exist.

So it would really be good for everyone but the Dark Eldar.

 Manchu wrote:
The Eldar of ages past sank into hideous decadence and brought a reckoning upon themselves. Those who never changed but have yet to experience said reckoning are the Dark Eldar. The DE do not have to rape and torture to survive. They could like their dour brothers of the Craftworlds pursue a life of discipline and integrity. The DE choose to continue on with the decadence that brought Slaanesh into existence in the first place. As their depravity is freely chosen, they are morally culpable for it. There is no need to talk about humanity to make this judgment.

And the humans didn't brought their fate on themselves?
Have they learned from their mistakes and changed or still proceed to do everything like they used to?

DE are borne, raised, trained, conditioned etc. to live like this. They have never experienced any lifestyle different to one they live.
It's not about stopping to be mean to somebody. It's changing your life in an opposite direction. For a race with so powerful emotions they created a soul sucking god.
Deathwatch can choose to start negotiating truces with all the xenos and Sisters of Battle can choose to stop worshipping the Emperor, right?

I'm not excusing Dark Eldar. I cannot, however agree to the: "Humans do A, because they have to", "Xenos do A, because they chose to do bad things".

As I said, there is no need to discuss humans to understand that DE are evil.

I think suffice to say even if Slaanesh were dead, the Dark Eldar would still continue as they are now and probably get even worse, because their fear of Slaanesh keeps them more restrained with what they dabble with.

That alone should prove the DE as evil. They're not doing what they do to survive. That may be part of it, but they're doing it because they enjoy it.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
but both types of eldar kill countless innocents to survive just in different fashions would that make them both evil just because the DE are more gruesome about how doesnt change anything.

but eldar of both types dont really consider humans to be worthy of caring about. It is like how today we kill millions of mosquitos to prevent anyone from getting malaria. We simply dont consider mosquitos to be worth worrying about. Does that make us evil?

Being a murdering, torturing, and otherwise unpleasant psychopath pretty much makes one evil.

daveNYC wrote:
The DE codex has that one bit of fluff about (I believe) Lady Malys raiding a mechanicum world in order to destroy some medical research that would have cured or prevented some disease. This raid was done as part of a challenge to hurt the Imperium. Causing pain and suffering just to cause pain and suffering. That's evil.

I believe that she raids realspace to destroy a fully function STC database that was just being uncovered. With it humanity would have been able to return to a level of technology higher than during the great crusade.

Still this is kind of like preventing a termite colony to grow any further. Evil? Not really.

 Macok wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Macok, humans of the past did not decide that the species would forever require protein to survive.

Neither did the Dark Eldar. They also did not choose to be forced to cause pain or have their own soul plucked and tortured for eternity.

Food has nothing to do with this discussion. Imperium is not bad because it eats. It's a very bad example / metaphor.
It's about Sins of our Fathers. You can't just say that one race is forced to do something and another one chose it's fate.

THe Dark Eldar are not bad because they eat souls, lol.

They are evil because they do all of that other stuff before/after eating souls.


The eating souls thing just gets no excuse since it's a perpetuated problem.


Good lord this has to be the most bizarre, disturbing, and ultimately nonsensical discussion I have ever heard. You people play Dark Eldar, Little plastic toy soldiers. They don't reflect on you, and it's okay if they are evil. Stop trying to justify torture, rape, non-consensual sadism, slavery, and murder for the sake of immortality. Doing that makes you a sociopath, lol.

 Exergy wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
The DE codex has that one bit of fluff about (I believe) Lady Malys raiding a mechanicum world in order to destroy some medical research that would have cured or prevented some disease. This raid was done as part of a challenge to hurt the Imperium. Causing pain and suffering just to cause pain and suffering. That's evil.

I believe that she raids realspace to destroy a fully function STC database that was just being uncovered. With it humanity would have been able to return to a level of technology higher than during the great crusade.

Still this is kind of like preventing a termite colony to grow any further. Evil? Not really.

The way you describe it, it could be Craftworld fluff. Something must make it Dark Eldar fluff.

 Monster Rain wrote:
Being a murdering, torturing, and otherwise unpleasant psychopath pretty much makes one evil.

But ... but ... maybe the haemunculus just wants to play and express his hurt feelings?

Oh, and I have no problem with zenophobe Eldar, Zeno wasn't the most likeable of Greek philosophers :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_of_Elea

The other main fallacy here is that no one really thinks the Craftworld Eldar are "good". Nowhere in the fluff does is say anything resembling that. Even when they are being "friendly", like in the Space Marine Codex in the story about Pedro Kantor, they make sure the Astartes know that they are not, in fact, bros.

Ask the Dark Eldar - they would tell you that they enjoy doing what they do - and they they would demostrate on you how much they enjoy it.

The Dark Eldar have embraced their needs.......... and few if any of them seem to want anything else

I don't think that's the issue.

DE aren't evil only when compared to something else.

They are evil without regard to comparison, whether or not they would describe themselves using a similar concept.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
THe Dark Eldar are not bad because they eat souls, lol.

They are evil because they do all of that other stuff before/after eating souls.


The eating souls thing just gets no excuse since it's a perpetuated problem.


Good lord this has to be the most bizarre, disturbing, and ultimately nonsensical discussion I have ever heard. You people play Dark Eldar, Little plastic toy soldiers. They don't reflect on you, and it's okay if they are evil. Stop trying to justify torture, rape, non-consensual sadism, slavery, and murder for the sake of immortality. Doing that makes you a sociopath, lol.

Woah woah woah.
First of all I don't play Dark Eldar.
Second of all please don't make this personal and try to "analyse me" over the internet.
Third: as I already stated explicitly:
a) I don't justify DE.
B) I did point out what my posts are about: they are the reaction to your (among others) posts of "xenos do bad because are bad, IoM does bad because they have to".

Can't you see the irony of calling others 'sociopaths' while defending actions of one of the most genocidal race in the galaxy?
How do you not get all the DE / IoM comparisons? They are not about showing one side in a good light but to show how subjective is excusing one side while bashing the other.

 Manchu wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
The DE codex has that one bit of fluff about (I believe) Lady Malys raiding a mechanicum world in order to destroy some medical research that would have cured or prevented some disease. This raid was done as part of a challenge to hurt the Imperium. Causing pain and suffering just to cause pain and suffering. That's evil.

I believe that she raids realspace to destroy a fully function STC database that was just being uncovered. With it humanity would have been able to return to a level of technology higher than during the great crusade.

Still this is kind of like preventing a termite colony to grow any further. Evil? Not really.

The way you describe it, it could be Craftworld fluff. Something must make it Dark Eldar fluff.

I'll have to check the codex, I could be off on what the target was.

Dark Eldar are physically and psychologically more than capable of protecting their souls from predation via other means. It is a matter of uninformed choice or lack of choice for most of them that they do not choose a different way of protection. It is not part of their racial psychology to want to torture others, although it is part of it to be overly indulgent when it comes to senses and feelings.

Please note that neither Craftworlders, Exodites nor Harlequins need to rape, kill, maim in order to survive and that all of the above are more than capable of accepting migration to and from the Dark Eldar ranks - although the Harlequins are a bit of a special case since their god is still alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
but both types of eldar kill countless innocents to survive just in different fashions would that make them both evil just because the DE are more gruesome about how doesnt change anything.

but eldar of both types dont really consider humans to be worthy of caring about. It is like how today we kill millions of mosquitos to prevent anyone from getting malaria. We simply dont consider mosquitos to be worth worrying about. Does that make us evil?

Either you are on a rather serious hyperbole or... well... I'm going to go with that you've got a serious hyperbole going. This isn't how the Eldar view of humans are described. They certainly do not care about their pains and pleasures, but I'd more describe it like how a modern day human with a ecological outlook on life view a race of top predators in the wilds. Sufficiently important to sometimes help, not important enough to loose land to and certainly not important enough that there is a choice between who should live in a threatening situation where one of the two races are in conflict.

Mosquitoes, however, fill a rather dubious ecological niche as (important?) food for birds which crap on our windshields. Mosquitoes are annoying things which nearly all would be happy to torch with a flamethrower. You don't help mosquitoes. The only question is whether a mosquito is important enough to bother killing. Not exactly the human-eldar relationship.

 Macok wrote:
How do you not get all the DE / IoM comparisons?

To the extent that the IoM has a unified culture, I don't think bad things are generally done because the IoM likes doing bad things. You're treating "have to" and "want to" as an exclusive binary. There are somethings that the IoM might not have to do but still doesn't enjoy. I would say the utter oppression of humanity is one of those things. The DE, by contrast, seem to do all the utterly depraved things that they do for no other reason than because they refuse to change even considering the threat of Slaanesh. All that torture and rape don't necessarily guarantee that Slaanesh won't get them -- it's a role of the dice, a scramble for dominance, the thrill of rapine competition, etc, etc, etc. If all the DE wanted to do was avoid Slaanesh, they could just prude it up with some Soul Stones and the Paths like the non-evil (notice I didn't say good) Eldar. But they wouldn't like that very much.

The DE are who they are not just by choice but by preference.

The IoM is much more complicated. You could say, and be totally correct, that the Imperium has made some extremely gakky decisions over the course of its existence. But few if any of them were made because humans prefer to live in the GrimDark.

Manchu, the utter oppression of the human race is the end goal of the imperial structure that is the IoM. It is it's core identity and the reason it exists.

No, I'm afraid you have missed the point of GrimDarkness. The Imperium exists to safeguard humanity and ensure human dominance in the galaxy. Thanks to GrimDarkness (TM), the only thing the Imperium can actually do is oppress humanity so as to wage (and slowly loose) a continuous, galactic-scale war.

Macok wrote:Can't you see the irony of calling others 'sociopaths' while defending actions of one of the most genocidal race in the galaxy?
How do you not get all the DE / IoM comparisons? They are not about showing one side in a good light but to show how subjective is excusing one side while bashing the other.

I've actually not defended the actions of the Imperium. I said they are morally questionable as all hell. But that their actions are at least objectively justifiable. I don't get the DE/IoM comparison because they are ludicrous, lol.

They sacrifice a thousand pyskers to gas up the Golden Throne. They do that because if the Golden Throne fails, the Imperium falls apart and everyone dies. Okay, I get the logical sequence there. It's unpleasant, sure. But, I get it. Chaos exists because it does, and the Imperium just exists in a universe where it has to do unpleasant things.


The Dark Eldar woke the sleeping God of Raping Everything, and Soul Eating. To keep from having their souls eaten, they realized they could eat other souls. Now, here's the thing, let's assume there's a justification for feeding on the souls of other sentient beings, because hey, the Imperium does it. Nevermind that the Imperium does it because the universe sucks, and the Dark Eldar do it because they made the universe suck. But, let's say the "current" Dark Eldar (who are probably the same Dark Eldar, since they live in the Webway outside of time and space) are innocent bystanders, victimized by their own heritage. Okay, so they eat souls to keep from having their souls eaten (I'm seeing some kind of giant ethical Grand Canyon here, but let's cross it on our rocketbikes wearing capes). Exactly where does all the raping, slavery, and other nastiness come in? I mean, they could breed things with souls in a big soul farm, creating a renewable resource and become self sufficient. But that's neither here nor there. Maybe space limitations in Commoraugh make this impossible. Maybe they tried and it didn't work, so being Galactic Bastards and wandering off to drag sentient beings screaming off into the Webway is the only solution. Maybe we'll even jump another ethical logic Grand Canyon, and give them some cultural relativism credits. They don't think of other races as actual people. I mean, certainly that's an excuse, I'm sure. Somewhere.

So now we've established (allowed):
Dark Eldar have to eat souls.
Dark Eldar have to capture things with souls to eat souls.
Dark Eldar, as a society, may not have respect for other sentient life.
The Dark Eldar eat souls to keep from having their own souls eaten.

Oh wait. That's not the next step. It's actually:

Dark Eldar have to eat souls.
Dark Eldar have to capture things with souls to eat souls.
Dark Eldar, as a society, may not have respect for other sentient life.
The Dark Eldar capture people, and rape them, and make them into pleasure slaves, and torture toys, and other heinous things.
The Dark Eldar eat souls to keep from having their own souls eaten.

Ohhhhhh, that's why they are evil. Suddenly it makes so much more sense.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, uh, no.


There's not a single school on ethics, morals, or values that would agree with the OP, lol. The Dark Eldar are utterly and completely evil. So admittedly so, that both of their codex books preface themselves describing the Dark Eldar as evil. This is a race that takes slaves for pleasure, torture for pleasure, and sadism... for pleasure.

The Eldar's fate was of their own doing. The measures they now find themselves faced with having to engage in to avoid having their souls devoured by Slaanesh does not serve as an excuse for actually engaging in those measures, lol.

Not exactly, ethical egoism would allow for the actions of the DE without ruling them morally wrong. And ethical relativism would say that they are following the version of morality that is created by their society.In that case it seems that the Dark Eldar would define something wrong as something selfless.
It's wrong in the context of their society. Many of the original Eldar that were present at the fall have died by now so the choice of their forebears does not factor into the moral standing of their offspring.

They can be morally evaluated based on ethical theories created by humans, They themselves are a fictional creation of humanity and are given the characteristics of an individual.

It depends on whether or how you define good or evil. Also whether the DE are evil or their actions are evil.

orz192 wrote:
It depends on whether or how you define good or evil.

This gets us nowhere as fast as possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
They don't think of other races as actual people.

If that was really true, why would they bother? The point is, they do it because they like to hurt people (or at least, other sentient beings). Hell, they do it to each other every chance they get, too.

(N.B., I realize I'm preaching to the choir, VS. It's just that your quotation was the best launchpad for that point.)

Actually, the case against the Dark Eldar gets even worse. We know that some Dark Eldar have left Commoraugh and the Webway to be Corsairs and other galactic bastards. So they can, and do, survive outside the Webway, just like regular Eldar.

So not only to they rape and torture and enslave and all sorts of other fun, nasty stuff, but they eat souls because they consciously choose to remain in Commoraugh because they love raping and torturing and soul eating so much that the whole Slaanesh thing is a minor headache, at best.


And you are correct, I should have specified, legitimate accepted school of ethics and morals. Nobody accepts ethical relativism anymore. Nor does ethical egoism fly with anyone civilized. Those aren't really schools of thought, though, so much as behavioral definitions. Only Ayn Rand was stupid enough to believe her nonsense. Oh... wait.

Dark eldar are pretty damned evil. It might be evil by need, but evil none the same.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Oh wait. That's not the next step. It's actually:

Dark Eldar have to eat souls.
Dark Eldar have to capture things with souls to eat souls.
Dark Eldar, as a society, may not have respect for other sentient life.
The Dark Eldar capture people, and rape them, and make them into pleasure slaves, and torture toys, and other heinous things.
The Dark Eldar eat souls to keep from having their own souls eaten.

Ohhhhhh, that's why they are evil. Suddenly it makes so much more sense.

I agree. For the third time I guess? Never claimed otherwise.

Nevermind that the Imperium does it because the universe sucks, and the Dark Eldar do it because they made the universe suck

This is where I disagree. Imperium does it because it made the universe suck.

They need the light to get to the distant planets. Many of those had unique, peaceful lifeforms that were given bolter to the face treatment, stripped of resources and turned into the breeding colonies of soldiers nobody cares about. IoM is holding the Chaos back. At the same time it's being it's number one supplier by a long shot.

Humans are not an innocent, misunderstood race that held against a gakky universe and wanted to make it a place worth living for all. They took numerous actions to make it a miserable place, especially for others.

In a game where EVERY faction does something "Evil" then by definition, no one is evil.

If you are arguing the good v evil dichotomy, then there are no greys, something either IS or is not. ALL the races in 40k are "evil" (there is no good, only WAR!).

Nothing good EVER happens in 40k. It's unrelentingly bleak. It's like Eastenders ramped up to eleventyone and pushed into the future.

The Dark Eldar are completely evil.
The revel in being evil, it's their bread and butter.

They live on pain, because they developed that way due to their lifestyle.

They are the True Eldar, that even at the most decadent point of the Eldritch Empire, hid away in the dark corners of the Webway, in a 'free city' unrestricted by the few limits of the empire at large.
It is the behavior they exhibit and still cling to that caused the birth of Slaanesh and the majority of their race to be slain and devoured.
There's alternatives, such as the Infinity Circuit, Soul Stones, dedicating yourself to Cegorach etc, yet they chose to be the way they are and enjoy it.

As for regular Eldar - they aren't good, but they're not exactly bad.
They're ambiguous, they do what they do to preserve their race - not help yours.

 chromedog wrote:
In a game where EVERY faction does something "Evil" then by definition, no one is evil.

If you are arguing the good v evil dichotomy, then there are no greys, something either IS or is not. ALL the races in 40k are "evil" (there is no good, only WAR!).

Nothing good EVER happens in 40k. It's unrelentingly bleak. It's like Eastenders ramped up to eleventyone and pushed into the future.

No no, the Dark Eldar are quote specifically evil, it's what they do, it's their thing.
They don't do something[i] evil, they do [i]everything evil. They don't do anything good unless it's by accident, or it's in aid of something funny, which is evil.

@chromedog: Although I appreciate the Eastenders comment, your analysis of 40k is pretty off base. Good does exist in the world 40k, if only in a hypothetical and/or formal (as in Platonic) sense. As I mentioned to another poster ITT, GrimDark is about tragedy: good is theoretically possible but apparently unattainable in practice. The fact that all sides are "evil" in 40k (debatable as to the non-DE xenos factions btw) does make it any harder to recognize them as evil.

I think the issue for Dark eldar , even in a setting every everyone is mean and evil bastards they pretty much take the cake as Lords of evil. You have to go demons to get any more evil then dark eldars. I mean they live to inflict pain and eat souls. The diet coke of evil they are not.

"Provided they steeped themselves in the most evil and decadent acts"

Page seven, 5th ed DE codex.

Note the inclusion of the word evil. They do evil things. Evil things are inherently immoral and wrong.

Definition of evil: Profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Notice a bit of a connection?

Painbiro wrote:
"Provided they steeped themselves in the most evil and decadent acts"

Page seven, 5th ed DE codex.

Note the inclusion of the word evil. They do evil things. Evil things are inherently immoral and wrong.

Definition of evil: Profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Notice a bit of a connection?

Seven?

Try page five.

"This is a tale of Evil Incarnate."

feth, try page one.

"A Book of Immortal Evils"

In 40k, the Dark Eldar are among the most vile of all beings in the setting, rivaled only by the likes of the Emperor's Children (Though at least they have legion-wide mind the curses please as an excuse) and maybe the C'tan.

Why are we trying to not call the "evil elves in space" of 40k not evil?

Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

Exalbaru wrote:
Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

The issues is as others have said - there are other alternatives - they just don't want to try on them on the whole - they like torturing, raping and the whole range of "evil" acts - some of them get so jaded they can only find amusement by having it done to them as well .............

They dont want redemption or anything similar - they don't want a better future - they are in general apparently more than happy with their own twisted society.

This is a society that promotes sadism, rape, torture, and wanton murder (To a lesser extent, the previous three are more fun) as a virtue, as well as advocating treachery among their own numbers. They have the ability to change, and still survive without Slaanesh eating the gak out of their souls, but actively choose not to, because they find the hedonistic blood orgies more fun.

That it is their culture is irrelevant. The culture itself is evil.

Exalbaru wrote:
Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

If the only way to survive is to be evil (literally no other option in this case) then the altruistic or good thing to do is simply to allow yourself to die. Dilemma solved.

 Lightcavalier wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:
Their acts are by all means evil by our standards. I do see how they are doing what they need to survive however. it is quite a delima

If the only way to survive is to be evil (literally no other option in this case) then the altruistic or good thing to do is simply to allow yourself to die. Dilemma solved.

Except again, it's not the only way for them to survive. There's several options available.
They chose to do it that way, because they like it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Why are we trying to not call the "evil elves in space" of 40k not evil?

Yep.

This thread is pointless. Naming a thread 'Dark Eldar are not Evil' invites argument in the same way the annoying student who sat next to you in undergrad did when always trying to play devil's advocate.

Just as planned, I imagine.

The DE could follow the path of their CE or Exodite cousins that theoretically does not require any death or torture.

Instead they decided to go the homicidal maniac route.


Sounds evil to me. Also, they are responsible for creating slaneesh. That is a pretty bad move as well.

We can give them a pass on attracting Slaanesh's attention "into being." They could hardly have understood that as one of the consequences of their actions. But they were and are certainly evil enough otherwise.

So, how are DE not evil then?

I guess they don't necessarily brush their teeth, or put on their makeup, or ties their shoes in an evil way. They might, you never know.

*looks at thread*

Phil Kelly (in the DE codex) wrote:The Dark Eldar are pure evil in its most sickening and elemental sense.

Meanwhile, the Craftworld Eldar are simply doing all they can to stay alive themselves, they don't have time for being nice to others. I mean, they're the most doomed race in a doomed galaxy, how can you expect them to go around saving others who, compared to them, have it seriously easy?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Actually, the case against the Dark Eldar gets even worse. We know that some Dark Eldar have left Commoraugh and the Webway to be Corsairs and other galactic bastards. So they can, and do, survive outside the Webway, just like regular Eldar.

So not only to they rape and torture and enslave and all sorts of other fun, nasty stuff, but they eat souls because they consciously choose to remain in Commoraugh because they love raping and torturing and soul eating so much that the whole Slaanesh thing is a minor headache, at best.


And you are correct, I should have specified, legitimate accepted school of ethics and morals. Nobody accepts ethical relativism anymore. Nor does ethical egoism fly with anyone civilized. Those aren't really schools of thought, though, so much as behavioral definitions. Only Ayn Rand was stupid enough to believe her nonsense. Oh... wait.

You got my drift with ethical egoism.

If you use "good" or "evil" in the context of a dichotomy then you can't really make a judgement about the DE.

If you use it in a more pragmatic sense then yes the DE are evil.

I never said that the galaxy would'nt be better off with them dead, I just said I don't blame them for wanting to live, I find all Xenos predatory in some form including the Tau, just like humanity is predatory towards the Xenos, I always side with the humans against the foul Xenos whether they be Imperial or Chaos not because of good or evil but because we belong to the same species.

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
I never said that the galaxy would'nt be better off with them dead, I just said I don't blame them for wanting to live, I find all Xenos predatory in some form including the Tau, just like humanity is predatory towards the Xenos, I always side with the humans against the foul Xenos whether they be Imperial or Chaos not because of good or evil but because we belong to the same species.

So, you're saying all races in 40k are evil and therefore DE aren't evil...
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because all races are evil doesn't make DE any better. And just because they're trying to survive doesn't make what they're doing good.

And Jefferey Dahmer was just hungry.

Considering they revel in, and indeed feed on, the pain and suffering of others, they are pretty damn evil.

There are Dark Eldar whom attempt to follow a Path as well.

Evil and good are subjective to an individuals morales. To what extent does your morales go, and to what extent do most other peoples go? There is your definition of good and evil. Dark Eldar are evil by my view, Eldar are not, but neither are they good, and the same with the IoM. I also despise people who are overly moralistic.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Evil and good are subjective to an individuals morales. To what extent does your morales go, and to what extent do most other peoples go? There is your definition of good and evil. Dark Eldar are evil by my view, Eldar are not, but neither are they good, and the same with the IoM. I also despise people who are overly moralistic.

Dark Eldar are evil by their own definition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
This is a society that promotes sadism, rape, torture, and wanton murder (To a lesser extent, the previous three are more fun) as a virtue, as well as advocating treachery among their own numbers. They have the ability to change, and still survive without Slaanesh eating the gak out of their souls, but actively choose not to, because they find the hedonistic blood orgies more fun.

That it is their culture is irrelevant. The culture itself is evil.

In their defense, hedonistic blood orgies are pretty fething fun, no pun intended.

If the evil alternative was not way cooler nor more fun than the good, it would not be evil.

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
I never said that the galaxy would'nt be better off with them dead, I just said I don't blame them for wanting to live, I find all Xenos predatory in some form including the Tau, just like humanity is predatory towards the Xenos, I always side with the humans against the foul Xenos whether they be Imperial or Chaos not because of good or evil but because we belong to the same species.

This is a fictional universe.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
If the evil alternative was not way cooler nor more fun than the good, it would not be evil.

If not meant as joke, pffft.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Mandor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If everything in 40K is a scale of "Well, how evil is this?", with the Tau at one end under "Well, it's only the Ethereals who are really evil", meeting the Imperium about halfway under "Well, it's either small evils, or annihilation", then the Dark Eldar fight with Chaos for the title of "Evil just for the heck of it" title.

The Dark Eldar actually need to perform their acts of evil for their own survival. This doesn't make those acts any less evil, but it requires them to be just as ruthless as the Imperium is.

It doesn't "require" anything. They do it to extend their own lives preternaturally, lol. They are attempting to remain immortal by consuming the souls of other living things. This isn't like me eating a chicken because I need food, or even the Imperium sacrificing psykers to fuel the Golden Throne.

Interesting digression though...

Unless you're in a desparate survival situation, you don't need to eat a chicken to survive. You eat it because you like the taste, survival is merely a side effect. So your main reason for doing it is pleasure.

Nothing like the DE thing - if they don't take souls they WILL be killed by Slaanesh, and if they don't take enough souls, they'll be so weak they'll be killed by other, stronger DE.

Or they could just cease raping each other, wipe the evil grins off their faces, and put some damned shoes on. What I mean by that, is learn from their Craftworlder brothers and sisters.

When the toturing of sentient beings is compared to eating chicken I know that the time for sensible discussion is past.

...and the time for orifice invasion has arrived.

Yeah, TBH I don't know why this thread hasn't been locked yet. We've had 4 pages of people agreeing that the DE are evil, with the occasional idiotic reason that they could be considered Ok being argued against by anyone with a brain.

The Vampiric, Flesh Forging, Space Elves are the bad guys? But they grow people second spines and help them get ripped!

Get ripped in four weeks, find out how!

 Medium of Death wrote:
...and the time for orifice invasion has arrived.

I call that time "All day every day, baby!"