Here is a quote from the BRB Talking about psykers manifesting witchfire powers:

he can manifest only
one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each
(assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

Here is one about pistols:

All Pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons.

and another

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

So, by the rules, if a psyker has the option to dual wield, can he in turn shoot two witchfire powers? I would say yes, it is possible. Honestly i think this would only apply to CSM because the sorcerer has the option to buy a plasma pistol in place of his force weapon. He is then equipped with a plasma and a bolt pistol.

Also, would you be able to shoot one witchfire and one pistol? It says that he "can use a different witchfire in place of each" and it doesn't say that he has to. So you could bust out a witchfire and a plasma shot (or a bolt shot if you are afraid of the "gets hot" rule) in the same turn of shooting.



Any thoughts?
Let me know what you think,
Thisisnotpancho

Gunslinger states a model armed with two pistols can fire BOTH in the shooting phase. The word both referring to the pistols. Unless you are firing the pistols the special rule that allows you to fire two weapons never takes effect.

I believe you are misreading the rule. The limiting factor is whether or not he is armed with two pistols, not whether or not he is firing both. It is not required for him to be firing both for him to be able to fire both. If he is armed with two, he can shoot both, but does not have to. If he "can shoot" more than one ranged weapon per turn (meaning if he is able to fire two), he is able to manifest another witchfire in the same shooting phase in place of each.

Using a witchfire in place of one of the pistols does not take away his ability to be able to fire two weapons (being pistols) in the same shooting phase, which is what is required to fire another witchfire.

Gunslinger does not give a general rule that allows a model to fire two weapons . It specifies what two weapons he can fire using the gunslinger rule. Those weapons being the pistols. If you are not firing those weapons you are not allowed to fire two weapons. Its very specific on what you are allowed to fire. If you are not firing the pistols you are not granted permission to fire two weapons. Therefore not allowed to use two witchfire abilities.

If you are not firing the pistols you are not granted permission to fire two weapons. Therefore not allowed to use two witchfire abilities.

Whether or not you are able to fire two witchfire powers depends on whether or not you are able to fire two (more than one) weapon(s) in the shooting phase. It does not matter what these weapons are, only that you are able to fire two (more than one). If you are able to do this, then you can manifest two witchfire powers in place of each. The Gunslinger rule states that if he is armed with two pistols, then he has the ability to fire two. Ergo meaning that he has the ability to fire two weapons, because he can fire two pistols, and pistols are weapons.

I tend to concur that Gunslinger does not give you de facto permission to use two Witchfire powers.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I tend to concur that Gunslinger does not give you de facto permission to use two Witchfire powers.

It seems weird that a pistol would give you the ability to manifest another witchfire power, but i honestly believe that it is legal per the RAW.

It seems "beardy" but at the same legit.

Your ignoring the restrictions of gunslinger . psykers can manifest 2 powers IF he can shoot more than one weapon per turn. However if your not firing pistols per gunslinger rules you cannot fire more than one. If you replace a pistol with a manifested power you no long meet the requirements for gunslinger so its rule never takes effect and you cannot fire two weapons.

Backlash wrote:
Your ignoring the restrictions of gunslinger . psykers can manifest 2 powers IF he can shoot more than one weapon per turn. However if your not firing pistols per gunslinger rules you cannot fire more than one. If you replace a pistol with a manifested power you no long meet the requirements for gunslinger so its rule never takes effect and you cannot fire two weapons.

Actually I'm not.

Can the model shoot more than 1 weapon per turn?

He has two pistols, so yes he can.

You use a witchfire instead of a ranged weapon IIRC.

Witchfire for pistol-A
Witchfire for pistol-B

By that logic i can both shoot a pistol and throw a grenade as well. Your trying to state that gunslinger is in effect at all times when it is not. Its only manifested when two pistols are fired. The rule allows you to fire 2 weapons only when they are pistols. Beyond that it grants no other function and or permission. Your trying to state that it grants an all around fire two weapons rule, that it just doesnt give. 40K rule set is permissive, Gunslinger grants permission to fire two weapons under certain circumstances. If you do not meet those requirements the ability is not given.

Backlash wrote:
By that logic i can both shoot a pistol and throw a grenade as well. Your trying to state that gunslinger is in effect at all times when it is not. Its only manifested when two pistols are fired. The rule allows you to fire 2 weapons only when they are pistols. Beyond that it grants no other function and or permission. Your trying to state that it grants an all around fire two weapons rule, that it just doesnt give. 40K rule set is permissive, Gunslinger grants permission to fire two weapons under certain circumstances. If you do not meet those requirements the ability is not given.

The grenade does not say that it takes the pistols place, the witchfire does. This is where your logic is flawed. He can fire only two pistols, but the witchfire take place of those pistols, two of which can be fired. Therefore, two witchfires can be fired.

"Witchfire powers aer manifested in the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

First sentence of witchfire powers. The original psychic power is fired instead of your weapons. No pistols, no gunslinger. No gunslinger, no 2 powers.

Backlash wrote:
"Witchfire powers aer manifested in the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

First sentence of witchfire powers. The original psychic power is fired instead of your weapons. No pistols, no gunslinger. No gunslinger, no 2 powers.

Ahem...
Let me cite a extract from page 69...
"Even if a psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than one psychic power a turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power- regardless of it's subtype. However if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough warp charges.)"
Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

so we break it down like so....
Can the model make multiple shooting attacks? (Yes, due to the Gunslinger USR.)
Can the model shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn? (Yes, due to the Gunslinger USR.)
Can the model use a witchfire power in place of shooting his pistol(s)? (Yes, due to the Witchfire rules)

This leads us to the (il)logical conclusion that a psyker CAN earn an extra witchfire power use by taking two pistols.
Of course this is STRICT READ AS WRITTEN. It's kind of silly, but i guess it kind of makes sense....kind of....

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

You can fire two pistols. Not two weapons. The weapons much be pistols as shown in the Gunslinger rule. If you have two pistols, you can fire both.
"Both" does not mean "any weapon of your choosing", it refers to the two pistols just mentioned.
As soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol, the gunslinger rule no longer applies.

I agree, it's a very specific permission to fire 2 pistols. It doesn't say you may fire two weapons in a blanket statement it says you may fire both pistols.

Since the permissive ruleset allows you to fire both pistols when armed with 2 pistols, you need a quote to allow you to sub out the pistols in gunslinger. This is different from a MC with 2 witchfire powers who has the ability innately to fire two weapons regardless.

Even if he is not firing two pistols (manifesting a witchfire instead), it does not take away his ability to fire both pistols (weapons) in the shooting phase, which is what is needed two manifest another witchfire in place of the other pistol. The Gunslinger rule does not state that if he is firing a witchfire in place of a pistol, that it takes away his ability to shoot two. It does not matter whether or not that they have to be pistols, as the witchfire are being manifested in place of each. Even though the gunslinger rule gives him permission to only fire two pistols, it still meets the requirements to fire another witchfire. The witchfire then take the place of the ability to fire a weapon (pistol).

That is not how a permissive ruleset works.

The line "it doesn't say I can't" isn't part of the rules, it must say you can.

The ability it grants is to fire 2 pistols NOT any two weapons. If you don't fire pistols you have no permission to fire two weapons.

So the model can fire 1 weapon. If it has 2 pistols(specific excemption) it may fire a second shot. If it wants to fire a witchfire it counts as firing a weapon.
So if I fire my bolt piston, I cannot normally fire smite. If I fire my bolt pistol I may also fire my plasma pistol but still cannot fire witchfire as I have no permission to fire any weapon ONLY a pistol.

I tend to agree that RAW you can use two witch powers.

There's no limitation on the type of weapon that must be fired, just that you must have the ability to fire two weapons. Gunslinger allows you to do this, even if those two weapons are both pistols. Imposing a limitation of type of weapon is nowhere in the rule.

I wouldn't play it that way, as it does indeed seem "beardy".

So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

Not even close, but nice try.

Psychic shooting attacks specifically give you permission to use them instead of firing another weapon. That is what allows you to exchange the 2 shots from your pistols, because we have permission to use a whitcfire instead of firing ANY weapon, and we can shoot with 2 pistols. Think about it.

Neronoxx wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

Not even close, but nice try.

Psychic shooting attacks specifically give you permission to use them instead of firing another weapon. That is what allows you to exchange the 2 shots from your pistols, because we have permission to use a whitcfire instead of firing ANY weapon, and we can shoot with 2 pistols. Think about it.

Problem with that is, as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol, you no longer have permission to fire two pistols.
If you use two Witchfires, you've broken the gunslinger rule by not using both pistols, and have no permission to use two Witchfires.

Neronoxx wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So if there's a model that can purchase two bolt pistols and two plasma guns, it could fire the two plasma guns?

After all, if he can fire two weapons and there's no restriction on what the actual thing that shoots is...

This.
This is the logical outcome of the OP's idea.

Not even close, but nice try.

Psychic shooting attacks specifically give you permission to use them instead of firing another weapon. That is what allows you to exchange the 2 shots from your pistols, because we have permission to use a whitcfire instead of firing ANY weapon, and we can shoot with 2 pistols. Think about it.

Psychic attacks are instead of another weapon. Firing a pistol allows you to fire a second pistol only, not another weapon(which would be a blanket permission). These
So to clarify, you may fire 1 weapon(general permission).
If you have 2 pistols you may fire two pistols (specific permission).
If you can cast a witchfire power you may do so instead of firing another weapon(this applies to general weapons not special cases).

Nice try but still not the rules.

Gunslinger gives a single exception to the normal rules for firing only one weapon and that exception only applies to pistols.

What the Witchfire rule is refering to is things like Walkers and Monstrous Creatures which can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase.

He can use two witchfire because he can fire two weapons. Pistols are weapons. Both rules are satisfied because in the case of the second witchfire he replacing firing the second gun. Some interpretations here by some of you strike me as odd since the majority agrees on RAW. READ AS WRITTEN the rules aew satisfied.;

However there are not many that can do this but a deamon prince comes to mind since they can fire two weapons per turn also the chaos socerers. Not sure anyone else has the option for gunslinger.

Lungpickle wrote:
tHE RULE TO USE A SECOND WITCHFIRE ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN FIRE TWO PISTOLS.

Which works whenever you find two things: 1) Two different witchfire powers with the 'pistol' special rule available to one character 2) The caps lock key

I don't believe so, see my above post.

however, if it was the case, you would actually have to have 2 pistols as your equipment as thats the only way to get the Gunslinger rule. Having the option for 2 pistols wouldn't be enough.

Lungpickle wrote:
tHE RULE TO USE A SECOND WITCHFIRE ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN FIRE TWO PISTOLS.

Citation please?

You can fire two pistols.
If you're not shooting two pistols, you have no permission to use the Gunslinger rule, and can't fire two weapons.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
tHE RULE TO USE A SECOND WITCHFIRE ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE YOU CAN FIRE TWO PISTOLS.

Citation please?

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.

he can manifest only
one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each
(assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

Can he fire more than 1 ranged weapon?
Yes
That's the requirement which the model has met.

But Gunslinger isn't a rule the model has, it's a property of the pistols. When not shooting the pistols, the model has no capability to shoot two weapons.

It does not matter if it is a property of the pistols, he still has the ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement for him to shoot two witchfires

He only has that property WHEN shooting two pistols. When he's not, he doesn't.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It does not matter if it is a property of the pistols, he still has the ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement for him to shoot two witchfires

An ability the model does not have if using anything other than pistols.

He has a permission to fire two pistols. Pistols are weapons. Therefore he meets the requirement of being able to shoot two witchfires.

Lets say a psycher has two pistols and a bolter. He can choose to shoot:

-one pistol and one witchfire shot
-two pistol shots
-two witchfire shots
-one bolter shot
-one witchfireshot

 Mannahnin wrote:
He only has that property WHEN shooting two pistols. When he's not, he doesn't.

I think Mannahnin explains it pretty clearly, nowhere in the Gunslinger entry does it give permission for him to fire anything else twice.

Polecat wrote:
He has a permission to fire two pistols. Pistols are weapons. Therefore he meets the requirement of being able to shoot two witchfires.

Lets say a psycher has two pistols and a bolter. He can choose to shoot:

-one pistol and one witchfire shot <------- I disagree with this .... if he fores one pistol he can fire ONLY another pistol. That is the permission given via gunslinger
-two pistol shots<-------- Agreed
-two witchfire shots<--------- Disagree not accessible via Gunslinger rule
-one bolter shot<------- Agree
-one witchfireshot<------- Agree

I have to disagree with the Gunslinger rule allowing you to fire Psyker powers 2 times in one round as the rule only allows it to be pistols.

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each

Can you shoot two pistols per turn?
Yes.

Are pistols weapons?
Yes.


You dont have to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need the permission to fire them.

You are given permission to fire two weapons (pistols) per turn, so now you can "use a different witchfire power in place of each", as quoted.

You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

Yes, but he can use witchfire in place of the pistols, exactly as if he were firing two

Except that statement isn't supported by rules.

rigeld2 wrote:
You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

The actual rule is

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

You seem to suggest that those pistol shots need to be the actual pistol shots and that they can not be replaced with witchfire shots. There is no such restriction in the rules.

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You're given permission to fire two weapons per turn as long as they're both pistols.

The actual rule is

Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

You seem to suggest that those pistol shots need to be the actual pistol shots and that they can not be replaced with witchfire shots. There is no such restriction in the rules.

It can fire both.
Both what?
Pistols.
If you're firing a whitchfire power, are you firing a pistol?

rigeld2 wrote:

If you're firing a whitchfire power, are you firing a pistol?

Irrelevant question.

The permission to fire two pistols does not disappear when you replace the shots from the pistols for witchfire shots.

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

If you're firing a whitchfire power, are you firing a pistol?

Irrelevant question.

The permission to fire two pistols does not disappear when you replace the shots from the pistols for witchfire shots.

Except it does. You're given permission to fire two pistols.
If you're not firing two pistols, you don't have two shooting attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:

Except it does. You're given permission to fire two pistols.
If you're not firing two pistols, you don't have two shooting attacks.

You are given permission to fire two weapons that just happen to be pistols.

Then you are given permission to fire a witchfire shot in place of any weapon shot.


Nowhere in the gunslinger rule does it say that those pistol shots can not be replaced with another shots. If you are given permission to replace them, then you can replace them.

if the model has the potential to shoot 2 weapons then he can witchfire twice if he can shoot both pistols (he can) then he can shoot 2 witchfire

Just curious, what ML 2 psyker has 2 pistols ?

Fragile wrote:
Just curious, what ML 2 psyker has 2 pistols ?

Chaos IIRC, think they can trade their Sword for a plasma pistol Pew Pew

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Except it does. You're given permission to fire two pistols.
If you're not firing two pistols, you don't have two shooting attacks.

You are given permission to fire two weapons that just happen to be pistols.

Then you are given permission to fire a witchfire shot in place of any weapon shot.


Nowhere in the gunslinger rule does it say that those pistol shots can not be replaced with another shots. If you are given permission to replace them, then you can replace them.

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

rigeld2 wrote:

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

You are given permission to fire both pistols, and then you choose to replace those shots with witchfire.

No rules are broken, because you are given permission to replace the shots with witchfire.

it says you CAN fire it does not say you must fire both so he can use 2 witchfire powers because he CAN shoot 2 different weapons

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

You are given permission to fire both pistols, and then you choose to replace those shots with witchfire.

No rules are broken, because you are given permission to replace the shots with witchfire.

It seems to me that the rules ARE broken, because there is an assumption that you choose the weapon you're going to fire, then you gain all the associated permissions, then you suddenly decide to replace it with another weapon while retaining the initial permissions. Think of it this way:

"I'm firing two witchfire powers."
"You can't."
"Well, I can because I'm actually firing two pistols, but then replacing the two pistols with a witchfire power each."
"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

I can't think of a response that lies within the rules.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Polecat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It gives you permission to fire both.
Both what? Pistols.

If you aren't firing a pistol, you cannot fire both.

You are given permission to fire both pistols, and then you choose to replace those shots with witchfire.

No rules are broken, because you are given permission to replace the shots with witchfire.

It seems to me that the rules ARE broken, because there is an assumption that you choose the weapon you're going to fire, then you gain all the associated permissions, then you suddenly decide to replace it with another weapon while retaining the initial permissions. Think of it this way:

"I'm firing two witchfire powers."
"You can't."
"Well, I can because I'm actually firing two pistols, but then replacing the two pistols with a witchfire power each."
"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

I can't think of a response that lies within the rules.

If that wasnt how it worked, tben NOBODY could use psychic powers.
Please refer to page 12, the rules for shooting. Now please show me the step where you are required to pick a weapon and declare that you are using it.

Hint, hint.... There isnt one.

So that wierd occurence you desribed is ACTUALLY how all psychic powers must work in an order of effect sense.

I can the permission isn't for two weapons, it specifies pistols.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's akin to claiming the +1 attack for a pistol when armed with a specialist weapon.

Polecat wrote:

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each

Can you shoot two pistols per turn?
Yes.

Are pistols weapons?
Yes.


You dont have to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need the permission to fire them.

You are given permission to fire two weapons (pistols) per turn, so now you can "use a different witchfire power in place of each", as quoted.

You are given permission to fire two weapons of a very specific type (pistols). You're trying to change that very specific permission into a general permission. You can't do that. Its like saying that by being allowed to drive one direction on a one-way street allows you to drive both ways. That is not the case.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

The permission is right here: "Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase".

It does not go away. You have the permission as long as you have two pistols. You dont need to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need to have them to be able to fire them.

Then you have the permission to replace them with witchfire shots.

Polecat wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"But you get to keep the permission to fire both guns despite not firing any guns at all?"

The permission is right here: "Any models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase".

It does not go away. You have the permission as long as you have two pistols. You dont need to fire the pistols to be able to fire both of them. You only need to have them to be able to fire them.

Then you have the permission to replace them with witchfire shots.

So you're agreeing that if I had two nonpistol weapons, you could fire both of those?

You're reading it wrong. The rule requires firing both pistols. If you don't fire both pistols but make 2 shooting attacks instead, you're not firing both pistols.

Except once again, you're ignoring the very specific requirements that Gunslinger only applies to pistols. The rule does go away if you're not firing two pistols just like the double strength goes away if a model equipped with a power fist decides to use a different weapon in close combat.

You dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Polecat wrote:
You dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

False.

Polecat wrote:
You dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Totally false.
The rule states both pistols, the moment you try to use anything else, Gunslinger and any permissions it grants, are gone.

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per
turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each

The rule is asking: can he shoot more than one weapon?

Or: is he able to fire more than one weapon?

Is he?

Gunslinger rule makes him able to fire both pistols. Are pistols weapons? Yes they are.


Therefore the answer to the question "can he shoot more than one weapon" is yes.

You have now met the condition to replace the pistol shots for witchfire.


Therefore you dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Is he shooting two pistols? No.
Does he have permission to use the Gunslinger rule? No.
Can he fire two weapons, (taking into account the model may no longer use the Gunslinger rule)? No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polecat wrote:
Therefore you dont need to fire the pistols. You only need to be able to fire them.

Totally wrong, if not using two pistols, you have absolutely no permission to use the gunslinger rule. You may therefore not fire two weapons.

Pistols are weapons, Witchfire aren't pistols. Your permission to use gunslinger vanishes, breaking two rules in the process (gunslinger ad Witchfire).

 grendel083 wrote:
Is he shooting two pistols? No.

No. He is checking for permission to fire two pistols. Once that check is passed, it is passed and thats it.


He can now choose to fire those said pistols, or he can choose to replace the pistols shots for witchfire.

Wrong, because he's only given permuission to fire two pistols. Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

Pistols are weapons. If you can fire two weapons, you can replace them with witchfire.

Polecat wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

Pistols are weapons. If you can fire two weapons, you can replace them with witchfire.

You have permission to fire two specific weapons. You do not have permission to fire two general weapons, which is what the psyker rules require.

I think thats reading too far into it. The rule only talks about weapons and pistols qualify for weapons.

You would need a specific rule to forbid using the gunslinger rule for this.

Polecat wrote:
I think thats reading too far into it. The rule only talks about weapons and pistols qualify for weapons.

You would need a specific rule to forbid using the gunslinger rule for this.

Gunslinger is the rule that prevents it.
Because it only gives permission to fire both pistols. It doesn't give permission to fire more than one thing if its not a pistol.

Polecat wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Once again, you're trying to turn a specific rule (firing two pistols) into a general rule (firing two weapons). You can not do that.

Pistols are weapons. If you can fire two weapons, you can replace them with witchfire.

And not all weapons are pistols, yet you're trying to make a rule that applies to a specific subset of weapons apply to any and all weapons and that is patently false.

While an unlikely scenario, what about a model with two pistols that is in base to base contact with two Quad guns? Could he fire both (instead of his pistols) by virtue of the gunslinger rule?

I believe that this is a similar situation as manifesting two witchfire attacks and I think we can all agree that this would be silly.

The previous posters have it right; as soon as you fire something instead of the first pistol (e.g. witchfire, quad gun, etc.), the gunslinger rule no longer applies and you lose the ability to shoot anything else.

DoW

The rule talks about weapons, and that includes any and all weapons. Pistols are weapons, so they are also included in the category of weapons.

As for the Quad gun, if the rule states that it replaces a normal shooting, then i would say that you could fire a pistol and a Quad gun.

And if you somehow could get into base contact with two Quad guns at the same time, then you could fire them both using the gunslinger rule.

It's fairly straight forward really.

Gunslinger allows you to fire two Pistols.
As soon as you fire a non-pistol weapon (which Psychic Shooting Attacks are all Assault or Heavy), you cannot fire 2 weapons via Gunslinger.

There's no 'ifs ands or buts' here, unless you're firing 2 Psychic Shooting Attack that are pistols, Gunslinger does not allow you to fire 2 Psychic Shooting Attacks.

 Ovion wrote:

Gunslinger allows you to fire two Pistols.
As soon as you fire a non-pistol weapon (which Psychic Shooting Attacks are all Assault or Heavy), you cannot fire 2 weapons via Gunslinger.

The allowance is all you need. Then you have the permission to replace the pistol shots.

You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols.
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No.
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes.
Are pistols weapons? Yes.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No.

And if a model with gunslinger was in base contact with two gun emplacements he would only be able to fire one, as the rules for gun emplacments say that he must follow the normal rules for shooting, of which gunslinger is not a normal rule.
Gunslinger says the same thing, albeit overriding the volume of fire part.

Long story short: we have permission to use multiple powers. Definetly should be FAQ'd but RAW its there.

Neronoxx wrote:
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No.

So the allowance to fire "both" refers to something other than pistols?
I'm curious - why do you say that?

Nowhere in Gunslinger rule it says that if your weapon swapped for non-pistol then you go back and take permission back.

You have 2 pistols? Yes.

You can fire both your pistols.

Pistol is weapon? Yes.

You have 2 weapons that you can fire in same shooting phase = can fire 2 witchfire.

Must i go back to gunslinger for no reason if i ALREADY MET condition? No.

Is there any rule that says that if you met condition it can be rewoked back if you dont meet it again after swapping weapons?

Neronoxx wrote:
You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols. Armed with 2, can shoot both. Not armed with 2, can fire any two weapons it likes.
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No. In this instance, yes, yes it does, because it's based on the weapon type.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No. Actually, yes it does.
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes. Keyword - pistols.
Are pistols weapons? Yes. A sub-type of Shooting weapons yes.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes. Instead of firing a weapon, it's effective a weapon fired with its brain.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No. Yes.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No. Witchfire weapons being Assault or Heavy expressly forbid this.

And if a model with gunslinger was in base contact with two gun emplacements he would only be able to fire one, as the rules for gun emplacments say that he must follow the normal rules for shooting, of which gunslinger is not a normal rule.
Gunslinger says the same thing, albeit overriding the volume of fire part.

Long story short: we have permission to use multiple powers. Definetly should be FAQ'd but RAW its there.

Welp, this whole post is full of wrong. There is no permission to fire 2 psychic powers if you have 2 pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:Gunslinger
All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

This specifies if it has 2 pistols, it can fire both pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.69 wrote:Witchfire
Witchfire power are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Manifesting Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).
~rules for rolling to hit/wound~
Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than on psychic power per turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

So if you can normally fire 2 weapons, you can fire 2 Witchfire Powers - such as a Monstrous Creature that can fire 2 guns, or a Dreadnought being able to fire all weapons.
However, as soon as you fire an Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon, you are not firing 2 pistols, so cannot 'fire both pistols' and the Gunslinger rule will no longer apply in this situation.

But condition of gunslinger is not firing two pistols, but having them. Two pistols is effect.
Witchfire condition is met so it changes effect of gunslinger.
Or my logic is flawed somewhere?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But condition of gunslinger is not firing two pistols, but having them. Two pistols is effect.
Witchfire condition is met so it changes effect of gunslinger.
Or my logic is flawed somewhere?

Gunslinger requires both. You must have two pistols and the. You can fire two pistols ("both" must refer to the two pistols in the rule).
You're never permitted to fire anything but 2 pistols. For example, you cannot fire a pistol and a Flamer.

So you can't fire a pistol and a flamer, because the flamer does not have the specific allowance to swap it for another weapon if you can shoot two. The Witchfire does. The Gunslinger rule does not forbid you from using a witchfire in place of it... That is what everyone is assuming here but there is no rule that forbids that. Of course a pistol and a flamer could not be shot together, but witchfires take the place of firing the pistol.

But it says "All models with two pistols CAN fire both in the Shooting Phase"
If other rule changes your weapons your still have the pistols wich is requirement for gunslinger.
Firing them is not requirement, so gunslinger on wich effect witchfire effect is working is still applied.

Does "Special rule overrides general rule" can be applied in this case?

Polecat wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

Gunslinger allows you to fire two Pistols.
As soon as you fire a non-pistol weapon (which Psychic Shooting Attacks are all Assault or Heavy), you cannot fire 2 weapons via Gunslinger.

The allowance is all you need. Then you have the permission to replace the pistol shots.

Once again, that is false. From page 52 of the BRB:

All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase. This follows the normal rules for shooting.

Fire both what? Both pistols.

Look at it this way. You can separate ranged weapons into one of the five subtypes:

Rapid Fire
Heavy
Assault
Pistol
Witchfire Psychic Powers

Being a Monstrous Creature would allow you to fire two weapons. That by definition would include any combination of weapons. Gunslinger on the other hand applies to only one specific weapon subtype, pistols. The wording of the Gunslinger rules is more specific than the Witchfire rules and does not allow you to fire two Witchfires by way of the Gunslinger rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

Being a Monstrous Creature would allow you to fire two weapons. That by definition would include any combination of weapons. Gunslinger on the other hand applies to only one specific weapon subtype, pistols. The wording of the Gunslinger rules is more specific than the Witchfire rules and does not allow you to fire two Witchfires by way of the Gunslinger rule.

You do not need the wording for the gunslinger rule to allow you to shoot witchfire in place of it. The witchfire rule does that for you. In fact the gunslinger does not stop you from shooting a weapon that specifically takes the place of the pistol, which you assume it does. You do not lose the ability to fire two pistols (being weapons) if you shoot a witchfire in place of one or two of them.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All models with two pistols CAN fire both in the Shooting Phase"
If other rule changes your weapons your still have the pistols wich is requirement for gunslinger.
Firing them is not requirement, so gunslinger on wich effect witchfire effect is working is still applied.

Does "Special rule overrides general rule" can be applied in this case?

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

The "not using pistols" actually makes sense but i disagree with statement that you must FIRE this pistols.
If i have 2 pistols i have gunslinger rule applied to me. Now i chose to fire only one pistol. Gunslinger still applied to me because i have two pistols, i just didnt used the effect("you can" means its optional). Rule applies no matter what this models shoot or dont shoot, it says "All models with two pistols" wich mean every model on the table who have 2 pistols.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

The "not using pistols" actually makes sense but i disagree with statement that you must FIRE this pistols.
If i have 2 pistols i have gunslinger rule applied to me. Now i chose to fire only one pistol. Gunslinger still applied to me because i have two pistols, i just didnt used the effect("you can" means its optional). Rule applies no matter what this models shoot or dont shoot, it says "All models with two pistols" wich mean every model on the table who have 2 pistols.

True, you can fire both pistols, you're not required to. You may fire only one.
But the moment you fire something that isn't a pistol, then the Pistol Weapon rule Gunslinger, no long applies. The Pistol Weapon now no longer allows the model to fire two weapons.

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it says "All

Wrong.
The requirement is firing both pistols, "can fire BOTH" right there in your quote.

In addition, gunslinger is not a rule the model has, it's a rule that pistols grant. If you're not even using pistols, what gives you permission to use a pistol rule? (Page52) Can you use the AP of a powerfist when attacking with a powersword?
You're no longer using pistols, you have no permission to use the pistol weapon rule Gunslinger.

The "not using pistols" actually makes sense but i disagree with statement that you must FIRE this pistols.
If i have 2 pistols i have gunslinger rule applied to me. Now i chose to fire only one pistol. Gunslinger still applied to me because i have two pistols, i just didnt used the effect("you can" means its optional). Rule applies no matter what this models shoot or dont shoot, it says "All models with two pistols" wich mean every model on the table who have 2 pistols.

True, you can fire both pistols, you're not required to. You may fire only one.
But the moment you fire something that isn't a pistol, then the Pistol Weapon rule Gunslinger, no long applies. The Pistol Weapon now no longer allows the model to fire two weapons.

I agree with this, but you are firing a witchfire in place of a pistol. Not instead. You could not fire a pistol and another ranged weapon that isn't a pistol because it does not specifically state that you can fire it in place of a another ranged weapon that you could fire two of

thisisnotpancho wrote:
agree with this, but you are firing a witchfire in place of a pistol. Not instead. You could not fire a pistol and another ranged weapon that isn't a pistol because it does not specifically state that you can fire it in place of a another ranged weapon that you could fire two of

"Instead" means "in place of". Same meaning.
And as soon as you're not firing a pistol, you break the gunslinger rule. You're no longer using one of the pistols the model is armed with. Gunslinger ceases to apply, so can't be used to fire a second Witchfire.

But gunslinger states "both" not "both pistols". It can be assumed as "both whatever you fire, in this case pistols", as it never says "fire both PISTOLS" in words, those not give hard restriction.
omg this sounds stupid, but point is that it says "both" wich not really restricts replacing pistols.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

You do not need the wording for the gunslinger rule to allow you to shoot witchfire in place of it. The witchfire rule does that for you. In fact the gunslinger does not stop you from shooting a weapon that specifically takes the place of the pistol, which you assume it does. You do not lose the ability to fire two pistols (being weapons) if you shoot a witchfire in place of one or two of them.

No, you do need the Gunslinger rule. Without the Gunslinger rule you don't have permission to fire two weapons of any type.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But gunslinger states "both" not "both pistols". It can be assumed as "both whatever you fire, in this case pistols", as it never says "fire both PISTOLS" in words, those not give hard restriction.
omg this sounds stupid, but point is that it says "both" wich not really restricts replacing pistols.

Both what?
Two pistols, fire both.
It's talking about both pistols.
The rule very clearly talks about both pistols and nothing else. There is simply of way of reading that rule and thinking it means anything other than both pistols, it's how the language works.

Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

The key word is both in the Gunslinger rule. Both refers to the two pistols only. That's junior high school English class, no debating that.

This thread has made me want to make a Lord with with 2 plasma pistols now! And a disc of Tzeentch, and Scrolls of Magnus. That would just be fun.

 grendel083 wrote:

Both what?
Two pistols, fire both.
It's talking about both pistols.
The rule very clearly talks about both pistols and nothing else. There is simply of way of reading that rule and thinking it means anything other than both pistols, it's how the language works.

But it dont says pistols, why then pistols would be mandaroty condition for rule to work? It says "both (entities)" and i am using "both my witchfire". They were pistols but was replaced by other rule. Gunslinger second part states nothing about pistols and i meet condition of first part by having 2 pistols.
We assuming that they are pistols and assumption cant negate the rule.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

The key word is both in the Gunslinger rule. Both refers to the two pistols only. That's junior high school English class, no debating that.

This thread has made me want to make a Lord with with 2 plasma pistols now! And a disc of Tzeentch, and Scrolls of Magnus. That would just be fun.

Yet it only refers to pistols, it does not says that if i replace them with witchfire it will not refer to witchfire.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Both what?
Two pistols, fire both.
It's talking about both pistols.
The rule very clearly talks about both pistols and nothing else. There is simply of way of reading that rule and thinking it means anything other than both pistols, it's how the language works.

But it dont says pistols, why then pistols would be mandaroty condition for rule to work? It says "both (entities)" and i am using "both my witchfire". They were pistols but was replaced by other rule. Gunslinger second part states nothing about pistols and i meet condition of first part by having 2 pistols.
We assuming that they are pistols and assumption cant negate the rule.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
Then the gunslinger rule on page 52.
"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase. They follow the normal rules for shooting."

The key word is both in the Gunslinger rule. Both refers to the two pistols only. That's junior high school English class, no debating that.

This thread has made me want to make a Lord with with 2 plasma pistols now! And a disc of Tzeentch, and Scrolls of Magnus. That would just be fun.

Yet it only refers to pistols, it does not says that if i replace them with witchfire it will not refer to witchfire.

I don't know how it works in the Ukrainian language, but in the English language, the only possible way that sentence reads, is both (pistols).

DarkPhoenix wrote:
But it dont says pistols, why then pistols would be mandaroty condition for rule to work? It says "both (entities)" and i am using "both my witchfire". They were pistols but was replaced by other rule. Gunslinger second part states nothing about pistols and i meet condition of first part by having 2 pistols.
We assuming that they are pistols and assumption cant negate the rule.

We're not making any assumptions, we're reading it the way the English language works. The subject of the sentence is pistols, then by the rules of the English language 'both' in this sentence can only refer to pistols and not Witchfire or anything else.

 Ovion wrote:


I don't know how it works in Ukrainian, but in English, the only possible way that sentence reads, is both (pistols).

Same here, but rule is absolute and words are only means to bring it. If it does not states "both pistols" written then we can only assume that it ment to allow or disallow replacing them pistols with witchfire. Word "both" refers to the pistols, but if it refers to the word "pistols" from first part it means "only pistols", yet if it refers to the THE pistols that model currenly have and that granted the rule then they are replaced by witchfires and reference just points to witchfire.

Ugh, i guess i am thinking too much, this anyway is negated by fact that rule applies to pistol so cant be used unless pistol itself is used.

And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

1st sentence of witchfire rules.

"Witchfire powers are manifested during the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

You are firing the witchfire instead of firing a weapon. The first psychic power you use disallows you to fire the pistols and disallows gunslinger.

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Backlash wrote:
1st sentence of witchfire rules.

"Witchfire powers are manifested during the psyker's shooting phase instead of firing a weapon."

You are firing the witchfire instead of firing a weapon. The first psychic power you use disallows you to fire the pistols and disallows gunslinger.

Gunslinger dont require you to fire anything, you just need to have 2 pistols.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Yet it doesn't say 'Witchfire' within ten pages but it must mean that and not the the word 'pistols' which is in the very same sentence. Nobody writes that way, yet you keep insisting this must be the case because its how you want it to be. Please present an argument that doesn't require breaking the English language and has been thoroughly refuted. 'Both' can only apply to pistols and your insistance does not change that fact.

 Ovion wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols. Armed with 2, can shoot both. Not armed with 2, can fire any two weapons it likes. Citation required.
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No. In this instance, yes, yes it does, because it's based on the weapon type. Citation required.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No. Actually, yes it does. So if i am armed with a bolter and two bolt pistols i have to fire the pistols?
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes. Keyword - pistols.
Are pistols weapons? Yes. A sub-type of Shooting weapons yes. Yes they are. This in no way affects which witchfire powers one may use.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes. Instead of firing a weapon, it's effective a weapon fired with its brain. Citation required.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No. Yes. Citation required.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No. Witchfire weapons being Assault or Heavy expressly forbid this. Citation required.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:Gunslinger
All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

This specifies if it has 2 pistols, it can fire both pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.69 wrote:Witchfire
Witchfire power are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Manifesting Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).
~rules for rolling to hit/wound~
Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than on psychic power per turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

So if you can normally fire 2 weapons, you can fire 2 Witchfire Powers - such as a Monstrous Creature that can fire 2 guns, or a Dreadnought being able to fire all weapons.
However, as soon as you fire an Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon, you are not firing 2 pistols, so cannot 'fire both pistols' and the Gunslinger rule will no longer apply in this situation.

can you cite the page where this is stated? Because the Witchfire rules make no such mention of this.
You make a great deal of assumptions in your statements, so please be so kind as to prove that these statements hold some degree of truth.

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

Both your pistols. Does it means that i CANT shoot them if they are not PISTOL TYPE? No, because thats the word i added, it have no real power. It used only as reference to show WHAT i can fire, not WHAT TYPE IT HAVE TO BE.

Ghaz wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Yet it doesn't say 'Witchfire' within ten pages but it must mean that and not the the word 'pistols' which is in the very same sentence. Nobody writes that way, yet you keep insisting this must be the case because its how you want it to be. Please present an argument that doesn't require breaking the English language and has been thoroughly refuted. 'Both' can only apply to pistols and your insistance does not change that fact.

Why would it mention witchfire if witchfire have its own rules. Armor save rule dont mention every weapon available but used against many of them. If something can take place of those pistols its fine as long as model still have the pistols on it.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

Both your pistols. Does it means that i CANT shoot them if they are not PISTOL TYPE? No, because thats the word i added, it have no real power. It used only as reference to show WHAT i can fire, not WHAT TYPE IT HAVE TO BE.

So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

Again, please provide an argument that does not require us to totally ignore the rules of the English language. So far you have not done so. Your whole argument is "... because I say so".

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

This is a case of basic english comprehension vs being TFG.

I don't care if I get censured for saying this but cop on guys, when the majority of people are against you and you have to make arguements of "it says 2 pistols, that means 2 of any type of weapon" you have lost because logic has said so.

If I buy two banannas I can give both of them to Ghaz. How did I manage to give him two other pieces of fruit?

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, please provide an argument that does not require us to totally ignore the rules of the English language. So far you have not done so. Your whole argument is "... because I say so".

Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence. If i say "Joe look at the warehouse if there is 2 green boxes
bring them both here." but the other guys comes and says "If we have two boxes we can replace them with crates" then must i says that we cant because those boxes are not boxes but green boxes?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
This is a case of basic english comprehension vs being TFG.

I don't care if I get censured for saying this but cop on guys, when the majority of people are against you and you have to make arguements of "it says 2 pistols, that means 2 of any type of weapon" you have lost because logic has said so.

If I buy two banannas I can give both of them to Ghaz. How did I manage to give him two other pieces of fruit?

Wtichfire rule allows me.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

If you are armed with two ranged weapons you can choose which to fire, under your "logic" if I can fire two pistols I can substitute them. If you allow substitutions then I can fire the plasma gun and plsama pistol because I have a bolt pistol too.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

A) The Gunslinger rule proves that statement wrong by only giving you permission to fire both pistols.
B) All weapons have that rule, essentially. We know this because each model is permitted to make one ranged attack (barring MCs, Gunslinger, etc) and many models have multiple weapons. Without the option to use a gun in place of a ranged attack, having a ranged attack would be meaningless.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

If you are armed with two ranged weapons you can choose which to fire, under your "logic" if I can fire two pistols I can substitute them. If you allow substitutions then I can fire the plasma gun and plsama pistol because I have a bolt pistol too.

Witchfire rule states that i can use different psychic powers instead of any ranged weapon. I do so,

 liturgies of blood wrote:

when the majority of people are against you

Majority of people said that sun spins around the earth.
But thats not the case, i will still allow any chaos player i battle againts to have this combo if he wishes.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, please provide an argument that does not require us to totally ignore the rules of the English language. So far you have not done so. Your whole argument is "... because I say so".

Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence. If i say "Joe look at the warehouse if there is 2 green boxes
bring them both here." but the other guys comes and says "If we have two boxes we can replace them with crates" then must i says that we cant because those boxes are not boxes but green boxes?

Your analogy is wrong.
"Joe, bring me the green boxes."
"I found some yellow boxes, will those work?"
"Nope, only the green ones do. Keep looking."

Wtichfire rule allows me.

Um, no - it doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what leads you to believe that 'both' applies to something that's not even mentioned on that page, let alone that sentence? Nothing. There's more to support 'both' applying to pistols than it ever does for Witchfire or anything else.

The fact that it does not says "pistols", its more like reference to the pistols that model have (and that gave the rule) wich in general does not forbids you to replace them as they not HAVE to be pistols just have to be "both".

Read the Gunslinger rule and then answer the following question:

Both what?

Both your pistols. Does it means that i CANT shoot them if they are not PISTOL TYPE? No, because thats the word i added, it have no real power. It used only as reference to show WHAT i can fire, not WHAT TYPE IT HAVE TO BE.

So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

Or even two plasma guns, so long as you also have a laspistol and bolt pistol.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Witchfire rule states that i can use different psychic powers instead of any ranged weapon. I do so,

And you're absolutely allowed to. But what you're not allowed to do is fire a second pistol BUT JUST KIDDING HERE COMES SOME WITCHFIRE.

Majority of people said that sun spins around the earth.
But thats not the case, i will still allow any chaos player i battle againts to have this combo if he wishes.

Bad comparison. There was scientific evidence proving the Earth revolved around the Sun. There's no English language or rule that allows your interpretation. Allowing house rules or HYWPI is fine, but its not RAW.

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence.

The rules are written in English, following the rules for the English language. If the rules are not written following the rules of the English language all we have is a book full of nonsensical dribble. Its those rules that tell us what those groupings of words mean. Again, please provide an argunment that doesn't require us to throw the rules for the English language in the trash.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So I could fire a pistol and a Plasma Gun?

If gun have rule that says "you can use this gun in place of ranged weapon in your shooting phase" then yes.

If you are armed with two ranged weapons you can choose which to fire, under your "logic" if I can fire two pistols I can substitute them. If you allow substitutions then I can fire the plasma gun and plsama pistol because I have a bolt pistol too.

Witchfire rule states that i can use different psychic powers instead of any ranged weapon. I do so,

 liturgies of blood wrote:

when the majority of people are against you

Majority of people said that sun spins around the earth.
But thats not the case, i will still allow any chaos player i battle againts to have this combo if he wishes.

How you would play it is all well and good but there is no rules support. You have made a leap of logic, specific allowance is not the same as a general allowance.

Neronoxx wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
You guys are pretty short on comprehension it seems.
Firing the pistols is not a requirement of the gunslinger rule. It in fact has no requirements other than a model being armed with two pistols. Armed with 2, can shoot both. Not armed with 2, can fire any two weapons it likes. Citation required.See rules quoted below. If you aren't illiterate, or trolling, how can you possibly argue that the BOTH in Gunslingers rule, refers to BOTH Pistols
Thats it. Thats the ONLY requirement.
So ackowledging that, does witchfire care what weapon we are swapping out? No. In this instance, yes, yes it does, because it's based on the weapon type. Citation required.As below, it specifies it replaces a normal shooting attack. Being most Witchfire attacks are Assualt or Heavy, they do not fall under the purview of Gunslinger.
Does Gunslinger state that we HAVE to fire pistols? No. Actually, yes it does. So if i am armed with a bolter and two bolt pistols i have to fire the pistols? If you want to fire twice, yes. You can't shoot the Bolter AND the Pistol. You can either shoot A: The Bolter. B: The 2 Pistols.
Does gunslinger state we are allowed two shots with pistols? Yes. Keyword - pistols.
Are pistols weapons? Yes. A sub-type of Shooting weapons yes. Yes they are. This in no way affects which witchfire powers one may use.It doesn't affect what Witchfire powers can be used, but it doesn't allow you to fire 2 Witchfire powers using the Gunslinger rules.
Are weapons able to be replaced with a psychic shooting attack? Yes. Instead of firing a weapon, it's effective a weapon fired with its brain. Citation required.It's still a different type of weapon, and not a pistol.
Does gunslinger explicitly forbid this? No. Yes. Citation required.Regardless that it's a permissive ruleset, and that neither Witchfire or Gunslinger don't specifically state you can, Gunslinger specified PISTOLS.
Does witchfire explicitly forbid this? No. Witchfire weapons being Assault or Heavy expressly forbid this. Citation required.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:GunslingerAll models with two pistols can fire both (pistols) in the Shooting Phase.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.52 wrote:Gunslinger
All models with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting Phase.
This follows the normal rules for shooting.

This specifies if it has 2 pistols, it can fire both pistols.

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Pg.69 wrote:Witchfire
Witchfire power are manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often refered to as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Manifesting Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).
~rules for rolling to hit/wound~
Even if a Psyker has a special rule allowing him to manifest more than on psychic power per turn, he can manifest only one witchfire power - regardless of its subtype (see below).
However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough Warp Charge).

So if you can normally fire 2 weapons, you can fire 2 Witchfire Powers - such as a Monstrous Creature that can fire 2 guns, or a Dreadnought being able to fire all weapons.
However, as soon as you fire an Assault, Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapon, you are not firing 2 pistols, so cannot 'fire both pistols' and the Gunslinger rule will no longer apply in this situation.

can you cite the page where this is stated? Because the Witchfire rules make no such mention of this.
You make a great deal of assumptions in your statements, so please be so kind as to prove that these statements hold some degree of truth.

Page 52 specifies the gunslinger rules, Page 69 specifies the Witchfire rules.
The fact that Gunslinger specifies firing Pistols, and nothing else, and Witchfire follows Standard Shooting rules in all regards, look at it this way:
The Witchfire Attack is just another gun. It's generally an Assault Weapon (sometimes heavy).
You wouldn't try to fire a Lascannon and a Plasma Pistol, or say, 2 Blasters using the Gunslinger rule would you? So it's inane clutching at straws trying to get it to fire multiple assault / heavy Witchfire weapons with it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Your analogy is wrong.
"Joe, bring me the green boxes."
"I found some yellow boxes, will those work?"
"Nope, only the green ones do. Keep looking."

In your analogy model wearing 2 flamethrowers (yellow boxes) and not subject to gunslinger.

rigeld2 wrote:

A) The Gunslinger rule proves that statement wrong by only giving you permission to fire both pistols.
B) All weapons have that rule, essentially. We know this because each model is permitted to make one ranged attack (barring MCs, Gunslinger, etc) and many models have multiple weapons. Without the option to use a gun in place of a ranged attack, having a ranged attack would be meaningless.

A) No, it only says that i can fire "both" whatever it is. Wich i do.
B) No. Model can shoot one of its ranged weapons in the shooting phase (if its not vehicle). Special rules can allow it to shoot more. Gun cant replace other gun, you just choose witch one to use.

Ghaz wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:
Because its codex with rules of the game, not the rules of making English sentence.

The rules are written in English, following the rules for the English language. If the rules are not written following the rules of the English language all we have is a book full of nonsensical dribble. Its those rules that tell us what those groupings of words mean. Again, please provide an argunment that doesn't require us to throw the rules for the English language in the trash.

I follow the rules of common sense. When rules says that "model takes a wound" common sense allow us to understand that its "virtual" wound, while English language say that model made of plastic and not bieng a living creature cant have a wound. Thats why i assume that common sense have priority and English is means to bring rules to our understanding.

Sir, I believe you are depriving a bridge somewhere of your company.

Common sense is not so common, as your arguments prove. The Gunslinger rule does not allow you to fire two Witchfires, nor do the Witchfire rules allow you to use the Gunslinger rules to do so. The RAW is perfectly clear on the matter and your idea of 'common sense' does not change that. You still have nothing to back up your position other than "... because I say so".

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Sir, I believe you are depriving a bridge somewhere of your company.

And i believe i will be mistaken for a troll cos i am too open minded.

 Ghaz wrote:
Common senses not so common, as your arguments prove. The Gunslinger rule does not allow you to fire two Witchfires, nor do the Witchfire rules allow you to use the Gunslinger rules to do so. The RAW is perfectly clear on the matter and your idea of 'common sense' does not change that. You still have nothing to back up your position other than "... because I say so".

You only keep "because i say so" thing, please return when you find actual argument. Nowhere in the codex Gunslinger forbids me to use Witchfire, nor Witchfire forbids me to use Gunslinger.

Be open minded as you like, you can house rule anything but in here and 'normal' games you have to follow the rules.

MarkyMark wrote:
Be open minded as you like, you can house rule anything but in here and 'normal' games you have to follow the rules.

You right - rules, not some added words about pistols.

You don't need to add the word, because it reference the word prior in the sentence.

Both:
A reference to two of something.
Both Boys and Girls.
We are Both gamers.
Both pistols.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Be open minded as you like, you can house rule anything but in here and 'normal' games you have to follow the rules.

You right - rules, not some added words about pistols.

Are you familiar with the grammar term of "antecedent?" The antecedent of "both" is clearly and unambiguously "pistols."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Be open minded as you like, you can house rule anything but in here and 'normal' games you have to follow the rules.

You right - rules, not some added words about pistols.

Are you familiar with the grammar term of "antecedent?" The antecedent of "both" is clearly and unambiguously "pistols."

But they dont have to be for rule to work.
Let me explain my stupid logic:
1. "Any models with two pistols"
2. "can fire both in the Shooting phase"
3. "can use a different witchfire power in place of each"
4. "can fire both in the Shooting phase"
5. "Any models with two pistols" - it still have pistols just dont use them.



5a. "cant fire if dont use its pistols?" - nowhere in the rules says this - rejected

3. Is wrong

So at then end if the day you've used 2 Witchfires. Two pistols haven't been used, so the Gunslinger rule never came into play. And the WitchFire rule has also been broken, as two Witchfires have been used without the ability to fire two weapons.
RAW in no way supports this rule abuse (politest word I can think of).
HIWPI: I wouldn't argue, but pack my models up without a word.

 grendel083 wrote:
3. Is wrong

How it can be wrong if its quote from witchfire rule?

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
3. Is wrong

How it can be wrong if its quote from witchfire rule?

In place of each?
You're not using both pistols (yes the sentence means both PISTOLS), thus voiding the use of Gunslinger.

Basically you're using a Pistol Weapon special rule, without using a Pistol Weapon. Totally out of order.

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Be open minded as you like, you can house rule anything but in here and 'normal' games you have to follow the rules.

You right - rules, not some added words about pistols.

Are you familiar with the grammar term of "antecedent?" The antecedent of "both" is clearly and unambiguously "pistols."

But they dont have to be for rule to work.

I forgive because it seems like English is not your native language, but you're literally arguing that the English Language is wrong.
It doesn't matter that it *could* be something else, the English language defines the subject as "pistols" so applying the word "both" to literally anything else but that word is flat out wrong. There's no other way to say it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkPhoenix wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Your analogy is wrong.
"Joe, bring me the green boxes."
"I found some yellow boxes, will those work?"
"Nope, only the green ones do. Keep looking."

In your analogy model wearing 2 flamethrowers (yellow boxes) and not subject to gunslinger.

Yes, a model wielding 2 flamers does not benefit from Gunslinger.

A) No, it only says that i can fire "both" whatever it is. Wich i do.

No, it says you can fire both Pistols. Do you have any English teacher friends?

B) No. Model can shoot one of its ranged weapons in the shooting phase (if its not vehicle). Special rules can allow it to shoot more. Gun cant replace other gun, you just choose witch one to use.

So a gun can't replace another gun - so which one is "default"? Can you show me the rules about choosing which weapon to shoot with?

I follow the rules of common sense. When rules says that "model takes a wound" common sense allow us to understand that its "virtual" wound, while English language say that model made of plastic and not bieng a living creature cant have a wound. Thats why i assume that common sense have priority and English is means to bring rules to our understanding.

And that's where you're wrong. "Common sense" is anything but common. You can't insert something as subjective as that when interpreting rules - indeed you must read the rules according to the English language first, then you can apply "common sense" to get Rules as Interpreted.
You can make whatever argument for RAI you want, but please say so. What you're saying is demonstrably not RAW.

I hate to inject too much sanity here but.... exactly how many Psychers can be equipped with two pistols? If the answer is zero then whether or not they can fire off two witchpowers is more than a little moot.

I actually can't believe this has gone on for 5 pages.

This seems pretty beardy/cheap to me, Gunslinger states you can fire two pistols, not that you can fire any two weapons/powers. It states you can fire 2 Pistols.

This is common sense, also in terms of Psychic powers, it mentions you can only fire one witchfire power per turn unless the model is able to fire more than one ranged weapon in a turn (this is for the likes of Monstrous Creatures etc).

Now the Psyker can only fire two ranged weapons because they are pistols, the second you swap one of the pistols for a psychic power you would automatically lose Gunslinger, therefore the model cannot fire more than one ranged weapon in a turn, making it not eligble to fire two witchfire powers, whereas something like a Monstrous Creature can fire any two weapons in a turn all of the time and cannot lose this ability as far as I am aware, also this ability is not taken away by changing any weapon to a witchfire power unlike with the pistols mentioned already.

 Rysaer wrote:
I actually can't believe this has gone on for 5 pages.

This seems pretty beardy/cheap to me, Gunslinger states you can fire two pistols, not that you can fire any two weapons/powers. It states you can fire 2 Pistols.

This is common sense, also in terms of Psychic powers, it mentions you can only fire one witchfire power per turn unless the model is able to fire more than one ranged weapon in a turn (this is for the likes of Monstrous Creatures etc).

Now the Psyker can only fire two ranged weapons because they are pistols, the second you swap one of the pistols for a psychic power you would automatically lose Gunslinger, therefore the model cannot fire more than one ranged weapon in a turn, making it not eligble to fire two witchfire powers, whereas something like a Monstrous Creature can fire any two weapons in a turn all of the time and cannot lose this ability as far as I am aware, also this ability is not taken away by changing any weapon to a witchfire power unlike with the pistols mentioned already.

It is a bit beardy.
Gunslinger allows a model to fire 2 Pistols (weapons)

The only thing the witchfire asks about is essentially (can the model fire 2 weapons?)

Gravmyr wrote:
I hate to inject too much sanity here but.... exactly how many Psychers can be equipped with two pistols? If the answer is zero then whether or not they can fire off two witchpowers is more than a little moot.

Chaos Sorcs can, for example.

How many Warp Charges do Chaos Sorcs have?

Edit: Appears to be one but possibly two depending on options in the army.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It is a bit beardy.
Gunslinger allows a model to fire 2 Pistols (weapons)

The only thing the witchfire asks about is essentially (can the model fire 2 weapons?)

But if you're not using the two Pistol Weapons the model is armed with, you have no permission to use the Gunslinger rule.
WitchFire does ask that the model can fire two weapons. The model however cannot fire two weapons ( because you're not firing two pistols).

Gravmyr wrote:
How many Warp Charges do Chaos Sorcs have?

Up to 3.

 grendel083 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It is a bit beardy.
Gunslinger allows a model to fire 2 Pistols (weapons)

The only thing the witchfire asks about is essentially (can the model fire 2 weapons?)

But if you're not using the two Pistol Weapons the model is armed with, you have no permission to use the Gunslinger rule.
WitchFire does ask that the model can fire two weapons. The model however cannot fire two weapons ( because you're not firing two pistols).

This.

And how many points are you investing to do this?

Gravmyr wrote:
And how many points are you investing to do this?

A) Irrelevant.
B) 125 minimum.

To gain the gunslinger rule, a model needs only be armed with two pistols. Thats the only requirement to GAIN the rule.
Having the rule allows you 2 shots with pistols.
Witchfire allows me to substitue any ranged attack i make with a witchfire.

Now, that being said, i do agree with you, that once you use a witchfire power you lose the ability to use another witchfire that turn, because you fired an assualt weapon, not a pistol.
But RAW, you have permission to use two witchfires, but ACTUALLY using one of them revokes the priviledge. Sound about right to you Ovion?

Neronoxx wrote:
To gain the gunslinger rule, a model needs only be armed with two pistols. Thats the only requirement to GAIN the rule.

Not right. The model NEVER has the gunslinger rule. It's a special rule for Pistol Weapons, not models. Pistol Weapons always have this rule, and a model must be armed with two pistols to make use of it.

Having the rule allows you 2 shots with pistols.

Sort of, see above.

Witchfire allows me to substitue any ranged attack i make with a witchfire.

True.

Now, that being said, i do agree with you, that once you use a witchfire power you lose the ability to use another witchfire that turn, because you fired an assualt weapon, not a pistol.
But RAW, you have permission to use two witchfires, but ACTUALLY using one of them revokes the priviledge. Sound about right to you Ovion?

Sounds close enough to me.
Remember, Gunslinger is a Special Rule of Pistol Weapons. Using a Witchfire, you're no longer using the Pistol, but trying to use its rule.

BTW: Happy Christmas all, hope you're all having a good time.

Neronoxx wrote:
To gain the gunslinger rule, a model needs only be armed with two pistols. Thats the only requirement to GAIN the rule.
Having the rule allows you 2 shots with pistols.
Witchfire allows me to substitue any ranged attack i make with a witchfire.

Now, that being said, i do agree with you, that once you use a witchfire power you lose the ability to use another witchfire that turn, because you fired an assualt weapon, not a pistol.
But RAW, you have permission to use two witchfires, but ACTUALLY using one of them revokes the priviledge. Sound about right to you Ovion?

This is about right. You can choose to replace each pistol with a witchfire (so you can "ready-up", as it were, two witchfire powers) but as soon as you use one that is not the Pistol type then you cannot use the second, as you have violated one of the requirements of the Gunslingers rule: "...you can fire both [pistols]."

 grendel083 wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
To gain the gunslinger rule, a model needs only be armed with two pistols. Thats the only requirement to GAIN the rule.

Not right. The model NEVER has the gunslinger rule. It's a special rule for Pistol Weapons, not models. Pistol Weapons always have this rule, and a model must be armed with two pistols to make use of it.

This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

The gunslinger rule follows basic English rules.

"All models with two pistols can fire both in the shooting phase."

The word 'both' logically applies to something in the sentence, since there isn't a proceeding sentence. It can't apply to the noun 'models', since that refers to all and not two.

There is a noun in the sentence that is defined as two, that being pistols. Therefore, the word 'both' is clearly referring to pistols.

If you change the noun that the word 'both' applies to, then it is no longer the same sentence. Gunslinger only applies to both pistols that the model carries, and since it is specifically referring to pistols, a rule that applies to weapons is not compatible.

There's a fluff reason too, since it is called 'Gunslinger' which refers to wild west two pistol shooting which wouldn't apply to two rifles or two knives. If you think that you have some clever way to make gunslinging apply to magic powers then isn't it clear that you are trying to rules lawyer something more out of the rule than it states?

Clearly we have reached an impasse, as both views are correct.
If you look at it from the Gunslinger Rule, then the weapons can only be pistols.
However, if you look at it from the witchfire rule, then it is entirely possible to switch the two pistols for two witchfires, because the only requirements to fire two witchfires are met.
Both views of the ruling can be completely correct.

It will come down to what person is okay with what or what your TO/opponent says about it.



I for one would just like to imagine that my sorcerer is a badass psyker who is so powerful that he can shoot two witchfires in the same turn. Plus he is so badass that he has two pistols.

Just my two cents.

If you want multiple PSAs, use Ahriman.

 grendel083 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It is a bit beardy.
Gunslinger allows a model to fire 2 Pistols (weapons)

The only thing the witchfire asks about is essentially (can the model fire 2 weapons?)

But if you're not using the two Pistol Weapons the model is armed with, you have no permission to use the Gunslinger rule.
WitchFire does ask that the model can fire two weapons. The model however cannot fire two weapons ( because you're not firing two pistols).

Regardless the permission is there.
That's all that was required.

Can a model with 2 pistols fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase?
Yes

So than Witchfire says sweet, you can do this now.
Which is Beardy, but hey.
I would never condone or allow it in a tournament setting, but for casual fun/fluffy stuff especially if he has this sweet model for it. ( Also he has to argue the rule/think it's right)

thisisnotpancho wrote:
If you look at it from the Gunslinger Rule, then the weapons can only be pistols.
However, if you look at it from the witchfire rule, then it is entirely possible to switch the two pistols for two witchfires, because the only requirements to fire two witchfires are met.
Both views of the ruling can be completely correct.

No, both rules can not be correct. You can't break one rule in favor of another without a specific exception, because you have not met the requirements to fire the two witchfires with the Gunslinger rule which only allows you to fire two pistols and not two unspecified types of weapons.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Both views of the ruling can be completely correct.

Not true. If you try to apply the witchfire to Gunslinger, you break the Gunslinger rules. Therefore that view cannot be "completely correct".

It does not matter if the weapons are specified, the witchfire only asks if you are able to shoot two weapons. If you are armed with two pistols, then you can...

This arguing has and will continue to go in circles...

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It does not matter if the weapons are specified, the witchfire only asks if you are able to shoot two weapons. If you are armed with two pistols, then you can...

This arguing has and will continue to go in circles...

But if you're not shooting 2 pistols you have no permission to use two weapons, and therefore cannot use 2 witchfires.

One viewpoint is supported by rules and doesn't break any of them. The other breaks a rule. Which one is correct?

rigeld2 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
It does not matter if the weapons are specified, the witchfire only asks if you are able to shoot two weapons. If you are armed with two pistols, then you can...

This arguing has and will continue to go in circles...

But if you're not shooting 2 pistols you have no permission to use two weapons, and therefore cannot use 2 witchfires.

One viewpoint is supported by rules and doesn't break any of them. The other breaks a rule. Which one is correct?

The witchfire breaks no rules. If you shoot with a witchfire instead of a pistol, it does not take away your ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement.

It could be argued either way that this does or does not break the gunslinger rule. IMO, the gunslinger rule is not broken, because it does not forbid the witchfire rule, which is using them in place of the pistols, which the witchfire rule specifically allows.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The witchfire breaks no rules. If you shoot with a witchfire instead of a pistol, it does not take away your ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement.

It could be argued either way that this does or does not break the gunslinger rule. IMO, the gunslinger rule is not broken, because it does not forbid the witchfire rule, which is using them in place of the pistols, which the witchfire rule specifically allows.

I think this part is where most people who disagree with this reading, disagree.

Given the nature of the ruleset, the Gunslinger rule must expressly allow the witchfire rule to be an exception, not simply 'not forbid it'. As the rule stands, Gunslinger applies to pistols and pistols only. That means replacing your firing pistols with witchfire attacks is violating the language of the Gunslinger rule at the moment you attempt to use the second witchfire attack.

Sometimes it's good to "agree to disagree" as they say, but in this case rigeld is correct. The most prudent course of action is to follow the reading in which no rules are broken.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The witchfire breaks no rules. If you shoot with a witchfire instead of a pistol, it does not take away your ability to fire two weapons, which is the only requirement.

It could be argued either way that this does or does not break the gunslinger rule. IMO, the gunslinger rule is not broken, because it does not forbid the witchfire rule, which is using them in place of the pistols, which the witchfire rule specifically allows.

I think this part is where most people who disagree with this reading, disagree.

Given the nature of the ruleset, the Gunslinger rule must expressly allow the witchfire rule to be an exception, not simply 'not forbid it'. As the rule stands, Gunslinger applies to pistols and pistols only. That means replacing your firing pistols with witchfire attacks is violating the language of the Gunslinger rule at the moment you attempt to use the second witchfire attack.

Sometimes it's good to "agree to disagree" as they say, but in this case rigeld is correct. The most prudent course of action is to follow the reading in which no rules are broken.

DoW

This. You cannot say "the rules do not forbid it" because you've broken the core mechanic of a permissive ruleset at that point. The rules tell you what you can do, and Gunslinger says that if you have two pistols, you may fire both. That is the only permission you have.

I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

You have that backwards, as the witchfire rules don't have a specific allowance to use them with a pistol but with weapons in general while the Gunslinger rule is specific in that it is limited to pistols and not all weapons in general.

 DogOfWar wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

Your analogy is flawed.
Gets hot is a USR, and the weapon tells us it has this rule because it is in the weapons profile.

Gunslinger is neither a USR nor in any weapon profiles, so its a bit of a stretch to argue who has the gunslinher rule - the model or the gun. We don't have a clear answer here.

Neronoxx wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

Your analogy is flawed.
Gets hot is a USR, and the weapon tells us it has this rule because it is in the weapons profile.

Gunslinger is neither a USR nor in any weapon profiles, so its a bit of a stretch to argue who has the gunslinher rule - the model or the gun. We don't have a clear answer here.

It is found in the wargear section next to pistols, if I am not mistaken...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

 DogOfWar wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
This part doesn't make sense. If the model NEVER has the gunslinger rule, how can it use it, let alone lose it? Pistol Weapons grant this rule, but they do not have this rule.

Plasma weapons have the Gets Hot! rule. A model does not.

If a Space Marine fires a Plasma Gun, he is subject to the Gets Hot! rule. If he fires a Bolt Pistol, he is not, even though he is still carrying a weapon that has the rule.

Pistol weapons clearly have the Gunslinger rule and a model firing a pistol is subject to that rule. If they are not firing a pistol, they are not subject to the rule at all. Hence, no firing 2 witchfire attacks.

DoW

Your analogy is flawed.
Gets hot is a USR, and the weapon tells us it has this rule because it is in the weapons profile.

Gunslinger is neither a USR nor in any weapon profiles, so its a bit of a stretch to argue who has the gunslinher rule - the model or the gun. We don't have a clear answer here.

It is found in the wargear section next to pistols, if I am not mistaken...

that is indeed where it is found. But it is never stated as being a USR. i am wondering just exactly what it is?

Neronoxx wrote:
that is indeed where it is found. But it is never stated as being a USR. i am wondering just exactly what it is?

It is a rule that allows wielders of two pistols to fire two pistols, located in what is clearly a subsection for 'Pistol Weapons'.

Kind of like how the sentence "A model with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapons maximum range away." in the Rapid Fire Weapons section only applies to firing Rapid Fire Weapons, and not that a model with a rapid fire weapon can fire their pistol twice up to half the range of the rapid fire weapon.

 snooggums wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
that is indeed where it is found. But it is never stated as being a USR. i am wondering just exactly what it is?

It is a rule that allows wielders of two pistols to fire two pistols, located in what is clearly a subsection for 'Pistol Weapons'.

Kind of like how the sentence "A model with a Rapid Fire weapon can fire two shots at a target up to half the weapons maximum range away." in the Rapid Fire Weapons section only applies to firing Rapid Fire Weapons, and not that a model with a rapid fire weapon can fire their pistol twice up to half the range of the rapid fire weapon.

Except for the fact that once again, Rapid Fire is a USR, and is included in the weapons profile. So why isn't Gunslinger?
Not that this makes much difference, but i do find it peculiar.

Rapid fire is not a USR. It's a weapon type.

So at the end of the day, two Witchfires are used by a model that can legally only use one.
A Special Rule unique to Pistol Weapons, Gunslinger, was used despite the fact that no Pistol Weapons were fired.
A rule that allows two Witchfires to be used was used despite the fact the model can no longer use the effects of Gunslinger.

So the Gunslinger rule has been broken, and the Witchfire rule has been broken (and dare I say the spirit of the game is broken too).

This can't be claimed as a RAW tactic, because as soon as you use it you break two rules.

And yes Witchfire does require that the model can shoot two weapons, but as soon as those weapons aren't pistols, the model cannot fire two weapons. Permission revoked.

I ask you to read the next thing because sincerly belive that gunslinger work same way.

EXARCH WARGEAR (shining spears)
Star Lance: The star lance is extremely powerful laser lance, bla bla. It follows the rules for the laser lance, but has a Strenght of 8 in all cases.

All cases.

Now rule for power spear (wich laser lance is)
Power lances have two profiles for both Strenght and AP. First is used only on the turn the model charges; the second is used at all other times.
And it states +1/User as strenght.

Now i believe, and playing like that, that shining spear exarch have 9str (8+1) on charge. But as this is the "case" seems like he have to be 8 in ALL CASES. Because English rules says ALL then it means ALL. Only because it written stupidly. Is it really not common sense to add +1?

DarkPhoenix wrote:
I ask you to read the next thing because sincerly belive that gunslinger work same way.

EXARCH WARGEAR (shining spears)
Star Lance: The star lance is extremely powerful laser lance, bla bla. It follows the rules for the laser lance, but has a Strenght of 8 in all cases.

All cases.

Now rule for power spear (wich laser lance is)
Power lances have two profiles for both Strenght and AP. First is used only on the turn the model charges; the second is used at all other times.
And it states +1/User as strenght.

Now i believe, and playing like that, that shining spear exarch have 9str (8+1) on charge. But as this is the "case" seems like he have to be 8 in ALL CASES. Because English rules says ALL then it means ALL. Only because it written stupidly. Is it really not common sense to add +1?

This is wrong.

It will be Strength 8.
It is not a Power Weapon so is not subject to the rules for a Power Lance, it's a Special weapon with its own rules, so specific to the power weapon rules on the same page it doesn't get +1 Strength on the charge.

Honestly, you're grasping at straws and TFGing away - this is trying to bend the rules to your advantage in the most asinine way possible, ignoring other parts entirely at a whim.

 grendel083 wrote:
So at the end of the day, two Witchfires are used by a model that can legally only use one.
A Special Rule unique to Pistol Weapons, Gunslinger, was used despite the fact that no Pistol Weapons were fired.
A rule that allows two Witchfires to be used was used despite the fact the model can no longer use the effects of Gunslinger.

So the Gunslinger rule has been broken, and the Witchfire rule has been broken (and dare I say the spirit of the game is broken too).

This can't be claimed as a RAW tactic, because as soon as you use it you break two rules.

And yes Witchfire does require that the model can shoot two weapons, but as soon as those weapons aren't pistols, the model cannot fire two weapons. Permission revoked.

Grendel has nailed it here, I am amazed people are still arguing this, this is to be honest a pretty beardy tactic and I would not allow it in a tournament setting, I wouldn't even let this slide in a friendly setting, In fact I wouldn't let it slide in any setting.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

Show me the rule that allows a witchfire to be used in place of the second pistol shot when using Gunslinger.
Specific means just that - it has to be specific in what it allows. Neither rule is more specific, so neither overrides the other.

rigeld2 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I believe it is a case of general forbidding versus specific allowance. The Gunslinger generally forbids the witchfire rule, while the witchfire rule specifically allows it.

Show me the rule that allows a witchfire to be used in place of the second pistol shot when using Gunslinger.
Specific means just that - it has to be specific in what it allows. Neither rule is more specific, so neither overrides the other.

The only requirement is met for firing two witchfires.

That requirement is that the model has the ability to fire two weapons.
Can he trade them in place for pistols? yes, as that is exactly what the rule states.
Does this revoke his ability to fire two weapons? No, as the requirement for the ability to fire two weapons is met when the model is equipped with two pistols.
Understand that the gunslinger rule does not specifically revoke the models ability to fire two witchfire powers in place of each pistol, as even if the first shot is a witchfire, it still does not revoke his ability to fire two weapons.


Which is the only requirement to fire two witchfires.

Question: Is the Witchfire a Pistol?

Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

actually, yes, it does. Gunslinger revokes its permission to fire two guns as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

actually, yes, it does. Gunslinger revokes its permission to fire two guns as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol.

Exactly.
This point has been made again and again.
Trying to fire two Witchfires, using Gunslinger without using pistols, breaking two rules in the process.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Answer: it is irrelevant. The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) is the only requirement. And that is met the second you arm your model with two.
The Witchfire rule specifically states that if you have the ability, then you can fire a witchfire in place of those weapons. Nothing unclear about it.

Once you shoot the first witchfire, the ability to shoot two weapons does not go away. Which is the only requirement to fire the second witchfire.

actually, yes, it does. Gunslinger revokes its permission to fire two guns as soon as you fire something that isn't a pistol.

Actually no, no it does not. The Exact quote for gunslinger states that if the model is armed with pistols, he may fire both.

It does not say, if a model is attempting to fire two pistols in the shooting phase, he can.

The permission to fire two pistols (weapons) does not go away because the initial condition of only arming him with two is still met.

Lets look at the process of shooting in the shooting phase.

First, you look at your option to shoot.
-This includes all your wargear and any special rules.

Second, you make a choice what weapons and special rules available you want to use

Third, you execute the chosen shooting.


Now, lets look at gunslinger and witchfire for a psycher.


First, you look at options:
You have two pistols and two warp charges. You, at this point, may choose to fire two pistols. Then, you have permission to replace two weapon shots for two witchfire.

Second, you make a choice what to use.
You make a choice to replace two weapon (pistol is a weapon) shots for two witchfire. This is your choice and final answer.

Third, you execute the chosen shooting.
You fire your chosen two witchfires.


You see, in that process there is no way that the gunslinger rule disappears, because the choosing what to fire is already done and it can not be changed anymore.

So you've used a rule unique to Pistol Weapons without using a Pistol weapon? And this isn't breaking that rule? It definitely is.
You've fired two Witchfires without the ability to fire two weapons (as Gunslinger has been violated). Another rule broken.
In addition you should have broken your rulebook. As your opponent would have rightly hit you with it.

 grendel083 wrote:
So you've used a rule unique to Pistol Weapons without using a Pistol weapon? And this isn't breaking that rule? It definitely is.
You've fired two Witchfires without the ability to fire two weapons (as Gunslinger has been violated). Another rule broken.
In addition you should have broken your rulebook. As your opponent would have rightly hit you with it.

You have the ability to fire two weapons once you have armed yourself with two pistols. You still have it even if you don't fire two pistols. Gunslinger has not and will not be violated. The witchfire is the rule you are using once you arm youself with two pistols. I believe you are getting emotional with this. I am trying to convince you that this process is completely legal, which i honestly believe it is, and you are conveying that you wish for me to be hurt. Let's keep it not personal and strictly rules discussion.

Haven't read the entire thread but I would say that since the witchfire rule says you use the power "in place of each (weapon)" instead of "counting as firing each weapon" or some such similar wording, you wouldn't be able to use gunslinger rules for firing two witchfire powers.

But if this has been brought up already, sorry for the rehash and just ignore me. Just wanted to put in my $.02

Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

Provided that the only weapons you fire are those pistols. the gunslinger rule says, "may fire both in the shooting phase." not "may fire both pistols or any other shooting attacks." Both in this case is clearly referring to the pistols.

The pistols are weapons. Therefore the model has the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase. The Witchfire then states that he in fact can shoot two witchfires in place of each. The gunslinger pistol specificity does not affect the ability to fire two, which is the only requirement to shoot two witchfires.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The pistols are weapons. Therefore the model has the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase. The Witchfire then states that he in fact can shoot two witchfires in place of each. The gunslinger pistol specificity does not affect the ability to fire two, which is the only requirement to shoot two witchfires.

The model has permission to fire two weapons, provided they are both pistols, if you're not firing those pistols, the gunslinger rule doesn't apply because your not using the equipment that grant you the rules.

This is like claiming your character has armourbane when he shoots because he has meltabombs.

The analogy is irrelevant. This is not close to what we are talking about. The witchfire does not care for any specificity of the weapons being fired, only that the model has the ability to fire two. Once the model is armed with two, he gains that ability. Then he may proceed to shoot two witchfires in the shooting phase.

But the gunslinger rules only allows you to fire both pistols, its an exception to the normal rule of non-monstrous creatures only being able to fire one weapon, if you're not firing both pistols, you can only make one shooting attack.

It does not matter what type of weapon the gunslinger allows. What matters is that it allows the model to fire two, which is the only requirement to fire two witchfires.

witchfires are not pistols, gunslinger allows you to fire both pistol type weapons if the model is equipped with them. The main rules limit non-monstrous creature to firing one weapon or whitchfire attack ortherwise.

in other words, yes you get permission to fire twice, but that permission is rescinded if your not using the weapons specified.

No it is not, you still have the ability to fire two pistols if you are armed with two. Once again, that is the only requirement to fire two witchfires.
If you shoot with one witchfire, it does not take away your ability to shoot with two pistols in the shooting phase, which is the only requirement to shoot another witchfire. Once again, the gunslinger specifies that the model can shoot two pistols, but this specification does not change the witchfire rule, because it does not matter what type of weapon you are shooting, only that you have the ability to fire two.

After you've fired that first whichfire, you've made your shooting attack for the turn. whitchfire attacks don't have the gunslinger rule. therefore you've done all the shooting attacks your allowed to.

This is exactly like claiming your shooting attacks have armourbane because you have metabombs, the armourbane should only work in close combat when using the meltabomb, by your logic every attack made by the model has armourbane too simply because he has equipment that grants him that rule.

Once again the analogy is not relevant. It does not matter if witchfires don't have the gunslinger rule, only that the model does. He gains that rule when he is equipped with two pistols. Once he has two pistols, he satisfies all of the requirements to fire two witchfires. It does not matter if he fired one or two witchfires yet, he still has the ability to fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase. Those weapons are pistols, but, once again, the witchfire power only matters if he has the ability to shoot more than one ranged weapon. It does not matter if the weapons are specified. When he equips himself with two, he gains that ability. Once he has that ability, he can shoot more than one witchfire per turn. In this case it is two.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

But you're looking at only one part of the rule(s) and not the entire thing. Again, the witchfire rule of firing two powers if you can fire two weapons is "in place of" not "Counts as" or any other such thing. It's the same reasoning that Walkers and MC's shouldn't be allowed to fire any more weapons if they fire an gun emplacement. Gunslinger lets you fire two pistols, not two weapons. Yes, pistols are weapons but the rule (Gunslinger) is specific to what they are allowed to do, which is restrictive. Monstrous Creatures, for instance, are allowed to fire two of their own weapons (and walkers can fire all of their own weapons). These types would be allowed to follow the witchfire rule as the wording is the same.

Look at it this way...you're normally allowed to eat one apple (weapon) or one orange (Witchfire). Today you can eat two apples. So you eat one orange, are you still allowed to eat an apple? Are you allowed to eat another orange?

What i'm getting at is if you fire a witchfire then are you allowed to fire your pistol still?

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

But you're looking at only one part of the rule(s) and not the entire thing. Again, the witchfire rule of firing two powers if you can fire two weapons is "in place of" not "Counts as" or any other such thing. It's the same reasoning that Walkers and MC's shouldn't be allowed to fire any more weapons if they fire an gun emplacement. Gunslinger lets you fire two pistols, not two weapons. Yes, pistols are weapons but the rule (Gunslinger) is specific to what they are allowed to do, which is restrictive. Monstrous Creatures, for instance, are allowed to fire two of their own weapons (and walkers can fire all of their own weapons). These types would be allowed to follow the witchfire rule as the wording is the same.

Look at it this way...you're normally allowed to eat one apple (weapon) or one orange (Witchfire). Today you can eat two apples. So you eat one orange, are you still allowed to eat an apple?

Okay, i will go along with this whole analogy thing. In this case the oranges state that if you can eat more than one fruit, you can eat two oranges in place of each fruit. Can you eat more than one fruit in one day? yes you can, so therefore you can eat two oranges in one day in place of each fruit.


See how confusing it gets with analogies?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

What i'm getting at is if you fire a witchfire then are you allowed to fire your pistol still?

I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Well the witchfire states that you can. That alone gives you the right to shoot two. The only requirement is the ability to fire two weapons in the shooting phase, which arming yourself with two pistols satisfies.

But you're looking at only one part of the rule(s) and not the entire thing. Again, the witchfire rule of firing two powers if you can fire two weapons is "in place of" not "Counts as" or any other such thing. It's the same reasoning that Walkers and MC's shouldn't be allowed to fire any more weapons if they fire an gun emplacement. Gunslinger lets you fire two pistols, not two weapons. Yes, pistols are weapons but the rule (Gunslinger) is specific to what they are allowed to do, which is restrictive. Monstrous Creatures, for instance, are allowed to fire two of their own weapons (and walkers can fire all of their own weapons). These types would be allowed to follow the witchfire rule as the wording is the same.

Look at it this way...you're normally allowed to eat one apple (weapon) or one orange (Witchfire). Today you can eat two apples. So you eat one orange, are you still allowed to eat an apple?

Okay, i will go along with this whole analogy thing. In this case the oranges state that if you can eat more than one fruit, you can eat two oranges in place of each fruit. Can you eat more than one fruit in one day? yes you can, so therefore you can eat two oranges in one day in place of each fruit.


See how confusing it gets with analogies?

Read the edit.

And no, it's not really confusing unless you make it confusing. To use the analogy for MC's or even walkers, would be less so as their wording for shooting is near identical to the clause witchfire is looking for so all the fruit would be apples, or oranges, or banana's, or kiwi's...whatever.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

You can't, though. You can't discount a possible scenario that would break what you propose just because it's complicated. "In place of" is not the same as "counts as". By what you're saying then a model with two pistols could fire a gun emplacement and a pistol in the same turn as well. Or indeed do anything that is considered a shooting attack AND fire a pistol weapon as well. Your implication on witchfire does not just affect witchfire in regards to gunslinger.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Read the edit.

And no, it's not really confusing unless you make it confusing. To use the analogy for MC's or even walkers, would be less so as their wording for shooting is near identical to the clause witchfire is looking for so all the fruit would be apples, or oranges, or banana's, or kiwi's...whatever.

I read your edit and provided my opinion.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think analogies work in this instance.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Read the edit.

And no, it's not really confusing unless you make it confusing. To use the analogy for MC's or even walkers, would be less so as their wording for shooting is near identical to the clause witchfire is looking for so all the fruit would be apples, or oranges, or banana's, or kiwi's...whatever.

I read your edit and provided my opinion.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't think analogies work in this instance.

Yes, well, timing on refreshes here is not up to par yet. Heh. Continuing on...above.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
You have the ability to fire two weapons once you have armed yourself with two pistols.

False. You have the ability to fire two pistols, not any other type of weapons. Unless you can prove that a witchfire is of the specific type of weapon known as a 'pistol' then it can not be used with the Gunslinger rule.

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

You can't, though. You can't discount a possible scenario that would break what you propose just because it's complicated. "In place of" is not the same as "counts as". By what you're saying then a model with two pistols could fire a gun emplacement and a pistol in the same turn as well. Or indeed do anything that is considered a shooting attack AND fire a pistol weapon as well. Your implication on witchfire does not just affect witchfire in regards to gunslinger.

If the quad gun stated that "if the model has the ability to fire two weapons, it may instead choose to fire the quad gun in place of one" then yes. And yes i do think that this would work, because the witchfire rule states that you may use one witchfire in place of a weapon if you are able to fire two. He indeed is able to fire two pistols, and therefore can use one witchfire in place of one of the pistols.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
You have the ability to fire two weapons once you have armed yourself with two pistols.

False. You have the ability to fire two pistols, not any other type of weapons. Unless you can prove that a witchfire is of the specific type of weapon known as a 'pistol' then it can not be used with the Gunslinger rule.

The gunslinger rule provides him the ability to fire two weapons if he is armed with two pistols. Those weapons are pistols, but the witchfire rule only cares for his ability to fire more than one weapon. It does not care for any restrictions on the type of weapon, only that he can be able to fire two.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

thisisnotpancho wrote:
I would believe so, as the witchfire allows you to fire a witchfire in place of the weapon, but does not make you. So you would be firing two pistols, and then you would use one witchfire in place of one of them. At least that is my view of it. This rule gets even more complicated, so i'm going to just stick to firing two witchfires.

You can't, though. You can't discount a possible scenario that would break what you propose just because it's complicated. "In place of" is not the same as "counts as". By what you're saying then a model with two pistols could fire a gun emplacement and a pistol in the same turn as well. Or indeed do anything that is considered a shooting attack AND fire a pistol weapon as well. Your implication on witchfire does not just affect witchfire in regards to gunslinger.

If the quad gun stated that "if the model has the ability to fire two weapons, it may instead choose to fire the quad gun in place of one" then yes. And yes i do think that this would work, because the witchfire rule states that you may use one witchfire in place of a weapon if you are able to fire two. He indeed is able to fire two pistols, and therefore can use one witchfire in place of one of the pistols.

Well, you're not firing a pistol then if you use a witchfire power. So anywho, you seem deadset in your way and I feel that no amount of showing you the rules is going to change anything in your mind so my suggestion to you is to submit your question to the GW FAQ email (found in the GW FAQ). You will not get a response from them but it will be put to consideration for the next FAQ.

So I say to you, play it how you want (if your opponents will allow it, which I doubt) and I'm sure the rest here will play it how they feel is right. Just don't be shocked when it's ruled that a specific rule overrides a general rule.

 Kevin949 wrote:


Well, you're not a firing a pistol then if you use a witchfire power. So anywho, you seem deadset in your way and I feel that no amount of showing you the rules is going to change anything in your mind so my suggestion to you is to submit your question to the GW FAQ email (found in the GW FAQ). You will not get a response from them but it will be put to consideration for the next FAQ.

So I say to you, play it how you want (if your opponents will allow it, which I doubt) and I'm sure the rest here will play it how they feel is right. Just don't be shocked when it's ruled that a specific rule overrides a general rule.

That is what i plan to do. Thank you for the suggestion to submit my rule to the GW FAQ. It seems like the best possible route of action at this point. If i were to use this rule, I would show the rule to my opponent/TO and see what their ruling on it is. Plus I usually play daemons and do not equip myself with two pistols and a psyker above mastery level one, so i don't forsee this coming up any time soon.

thisisnotpancho wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Well, you're not a firing a pistol then if you use a witchfire power. So anywho, you seem deadset in your way and I feel that no amount of showing you the rules is going to change anything in your mind so my suggestion to you is to submit your question to the GW FAQ email (found in the GW FAQ). You will not get a response from them but it will be put to consideration for the next FAQ.

So I say to you, play it how you want (if your opponents will allow it, which I doubt) and I'm sure the rest here will play it how they feel is right. Just don't be shocked when it's ruled that a specific rule overrides a general rule.

That is what i plan to do. Thank you for the suggestion to submit my rule to the GW FAQ. It seems like the best possible route of action at this point. If i were to use this rule, I would show the rule to my opponent/TO and see what their ruling on it is. Plus I usually play daemons and do not equip myself with two pistols and a psyker above mastery level one, so i don't forsee this coming up any time soon.

So you don't use english to read the rules, you don't use logic to follow the steps in an argument and we are wrong because there isn't an faq to say that the rules are not permissive.
Good job.

thisisnotpancho wrote:
The gunslinger rule provides him the ability to fire two weapons if he is armed with two pistols.

Still false. The Gunslinger rule does not allow him to fire two weapons, only two pistols.

A spirited, healthy debate is something to be lauded. Sticking to your guns (be them pistols or otherwise) is also to be lauded.

Doggedly pursuing a line of logic that has been clearly disproven as RAW in several ways —not to mention violating the spirit of the game and almost certainly not HYWPI for most individuals— is not laudable... in fact, it's really rather silly.

A wise man once said (granted, it was about MFA, but still) ask yourself this question: Am I arguing this issue because I truly believe I am right?... or am I arguing because I want to be right?

That answer will speak volumes about where you truly stand on this issue. After that, it's up to you to reach a reasonable, personal conclusion.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
A wise man once said (granted, it was about MFA, but still) ask yourself this question: Am I arguing this issue because I truly believe I am right?... or am I arguing because I want to be right?

I've known a few players that can argue their interpretation of something until everyone else gives up and plays it their way. Ofc, everyone started finding reasons to not play them but at least they got people to give up arguing that their way isn't the right way.

The answer to this is simple, and was stated a few pages ago. You have permission to use the two witchfires in place of any two weapons.
But gunslinger only works when firing pistols.
So you declare the first witchfire fire, and guess what?
Witchfires are assualt weapons.
So the tactic breaks down upon implementation.
Thats how this works. To disprove this you need a witchfire that counts as a pistol type. Otherwise you're still limited to a witchfire, another gun, or two pistols a turn.

Witchfire:

However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn he can use a different witchfire power in place of each.

Gunslinger:

A model with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase.

A model with two pistols can fire two pistols. Pistols are weapons. A model with two pistols can use two witchfire powers.

The problem is that the witchfire powers are used in place of a weapon. So if a model can fire two weapons (say a über magical wraithlord with two big guns) the model can fire one of those and one witchfire, two guns, two witchfires, one witchfire, one gun or nothing.

When a model with two pistols is shooting, he can choose to use psychic powers, guns or a combination of previous.

The question is: When does the substitution happen?

a) Select normal weapons -> switch to witchfires
b) Select normal weapons and/or witchfires -> no substitutions
c) something different

Examples:

a) Our über wraithlord chooses to fire with big gun A and big gun B. Our über wraithlord switches big gun A to power X and big gun B to power Y.

Or

Gunslinger fires with pistol A. This allows him to fire another pistol B as well (Gunslinger). Gunslinger switches pistol A to power X and pistol B to power Y.

Note that here Gunslinger is firing a pistol -> firing another pistol -> substituting -> All ok.

or

Tyranid Blargh with melee only weapons can't use any witchfire powers because he has no shooting weapons to switch to witchfires. :/

b) Our über wraithlord chooses to use powers X and Y in place of guns A and B.

or

Gunslinger chooses to use Power X in place of firing a pistol. Here we can't use multiple powers because we don't have guns to substitute.

or

Tyranid Blargh with melee only weapons can't use any witchfire powers because he has no shooting weapons. :/

CSM Daemon Princes can't do it either if they don't take the marine killing flamer thingie.

c) ??????


Oh dear. It looks like I broke the rules.

 kaapelikala wrote:
Gunslinger fires with pistol A. This allows him to fire another pistol B as well (Gunslinger). Gunslinger switches pistol A to power X and pistol B to power Y.

Note that here Gunslinger is firing a pistol -> firing another pistol -> substituting -> All ok.

This part is wrong.
No need to repeat why, there are 7 pages of why this is wrong.

It's very simple guys you declare your shooting attacks in one go. If you declare you are using a pistol you can shoot a second at the same time. If you want to use witchfire you must declare that. It is very much an either or decision.

You cannot say "I'm shooting a bolt and plasma pistol" to get the gunslinger rule then start rolling psychic tests.

Now if you find me two "pistol" profile witchfires then I will gladly let you fire those two.

We have permission to fire two witchfires since the model can fire two weapons (the pistols). The problem occurs at the substitution part.

Witchfire says:

Witchfire powers aer manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

and

However if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different witchfire power in place of each.

As you must shoot the witchfire instead of a weapon, you need to choose which weapons you are normally going to shoot. When do we do the substitution? Is it like a) or like b) or something completely different c)? If it is a) you declare you use these weapons and then substitute, Gunslinger gets two witchfires. If it is b) you declare you use witchfires (without substituting them to any weapon) you get only one shot. If it is c) then who knows.

c) could be substitute pistol for power, no extra shot.

Regardless you need to substitute the witchfire powers to be able to use them.

Also, a model without a ranged weapon can't fire witchfires because it has no weapons to substitute.

Bad rules writing or what?

Edit: I wouldn't play like so, but that's not what's asked. In any case, ask your TO how it works.

Eh no you can have two ccw and still use witchfire. You use it instead of firing another weapon, it's not that you substitute your ranged weapon you choose which to use.
I can fire a weapon or I can use witchfire instead, not having a gun doesn't prevent using witchfire.

Pg. 12.

A unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

Witchfire:

Witchfire powers aer manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

So no witchfires for the Daemon Prince. Also you need to substitute the weapons for witchfires.

Prove me wrong.

 kaapelikala wrote:
Pg. 12.

A unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

Witchfire:

Witchfire powers aer manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon.

So no witchfires for the Daemon Prince. Also you need to substitute the weapons for witchfires.

Prove me wrong.

Simple. the Deamon Prince fires the whichfire attack instead of firing the weapon he doesn't have, if he passes the phychic test, he counts as having a ranged weapon with the profile of the whichfire attack. nowhere does it say he must have a normal weapon to fire in order to use whichfires.

But the Daemon Prince can't be nominated to make shooting attacks. To use witchfires the model needs to be able to shoot.

How can a model with no weapons shoot?

 kaapelikala wrote:
But the Daemon Prince can't be nominated to make shooting attacks. To use witchfires the model needs to be able to shoot.

How can a model with no weapons shoot?

Easy, they must have learned it from Chaos Daemons

The Daemon Prince is allowed to shoot. He just no longer has a "gun"
He has a BS, and can fire Quad Guns, Icarus Lascannons, etc as well as Manifest psychic shooting powers.

DPs in the Chaos Codex have Bolters IIRC.

 Grey Templar wrote:
DPs in the Chaos Codex have Bolters IIRC.

They havn't had a "gun" for the last 2 Codexes IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They can upgrade to a Chaos Artifact though.

Burning brand is shooting.

 kaapelikala wrote:
But the Daemon Prince can't be nominated to make shooting attacks. To use witchfires the model needs to be able to shoot.

How can a model with no weapons shoot?

It can be nominated, because it has a psychic shooting attack, which counts as firing an assault weapon.

Its also related to the fact that models without ranged weapons can still run. You give up shooting to do it, but you didn't have to have shooting to actually give up.

 kaapelikala wrote:
But the Daemon Prince can't be nominated to make shooting attacks. To use witchfires the model needs to be able to shoot.

How can a model with no weapons shoot?

You're confusing the ability to shoot (by having a ballistic skill attribute) with having a weapon to shoot with.

Emperor on a Pony this thread is a swirling mess.

Gunslinger: Read the damn title, GUN slinger. Not Psychic power-slinger. Pistols only. It follows the rules for "normal" shooting (i.e., pistol shooting, not psychic powers, which cannot be classified as normal). Just because the model has two pistols doesn't mean he is following the rules of normal shooting when not using his pistols.

Now, if the rules were written a little bit more clearly on page 69, the confusion would probably disappear. A Psyker forgoes traditional shooting in order to use a Psychic power in lieu of his normal weapons. This is an absolute, this isn't up for interpretation even if the words are poorly placed in the rules. This has been canon with Psykers since I can remember.

This sentence: "However, if he can shoot more than one ranged weapon per turn, he can use a different Witchfire power in place of each (assuming he has enough warp charge).", is the root of the issue, you cannot shoot a gun and a psychic power in the same shooting phase (at least not according to the rules as laid out in the first paragraph of the Witchfire entry) the argument for firing of multiple Witchfire powers in one phase wilts when the model itself does not have the ability to shoot two Witchfire powers in one turn. If a model can manifest more than one power per turn, it cannot fire multiple Witchfire attacks per the Witchfire entry unless specifically stated that it can, at which point, I wouldn't argue multiple Witchfire shots due to another rule (Gunslinger for this argument), of course this could be subject to change with forthcoming books, but for the sake of my argument and for the sanity of others, I will argue based upon what rules are laid down as of right now.

Which infantry models can do this (i.e. fire two different weapons in the same turn)? I can only think of one type outside of special rules for some rare exceptions. People with two pistols, while firing two pistols that shooting phase (which, interestingly enough, is the only phase they can use them in this manner :shocked: ) are in perfect alignment with the Gunslinger rule. A Psyker with two PP's and two Witchfire powers can either use: 1. Both PP's in the shooting phase 2. A Witchfire Pyschic power in lieu of his pistols or 3. Some forthcoming special rule unique to the model allowing multiple Witchfire powers in the same phase. 1 and 2 are definitely legal right now, 3 is unknown and anything other than these three, to me, is blatant abuse of poorly worded sentences.

Of course, a TFG will take the wording a run because it isn't specific about which "weapon" being fired. Now, I've seen some pretty slick rules lawyering in my day, but this is almost the tops. Psykers cannot shoot regular weapons and psychic powers in the same phase, period. This is incongruous with years of 40k rules, rulebooks, fluff (why would you need to use a pistol and a psychic power at the same time? C'mon man! ) and actual play.

Of course, the Rulebook is written with newer Codicies forthcoming, so some of these rules don't make any sense now, but they certainly might with the newer books and rules coming.

This may be a lesson in excessive pedantry, but sometimes that's what it takes to breakthrough stubborn adherence to something is abjectly wrong.