I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one) and I noticed that I've been missing a trick with autocannons. They'll get 0.37 MEQ kills per salvo (at BS4), which means they'll only have to shoot twice to get a decent chance of getting their points back. They're also handy for stripping hull points off enemy transports, and give your vets something to do turn 1. They also can be taken on my vets, essentially a "free slot". Obviously I'd take another plasma gun if I could...but I can't.

Yes they'll be snap firing a lot - but as i said above, only 2 rounds will get their points back. My average 1500 list would have say 3 mechvets, 30 points for three autocannons just seems like a bargain.

It's not a bad idea with vets since they're so cheap. Plus, with the new FAQ on wound allocation having a 48" weapon ensures that you never waste any plasma/melta shots.

I have a soft spot for auto cannons, and their Tau equivilent. I know a lot of people argue that they are useless, being too strong and not enough shots for infantry, and being too light for taking out Land Raiders, but I've found most of my engagements are more middle ground than boyz/LR.

I have thought about putting them on vet squads since the addition of snapfire, specifically in a Harker squad.

BryllCream wrote:I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one) and I noticed that I've been missing a trick with autocannons. They'll get 0.37 MEQ kills per salvo (at BS4), which means they'll only have to shoot twice to get a decent chance of getting their points back.

I am with you on the mathhammering at work. I do that often.

I'm not a big fan of the phrase 'earn its points back'. None of the missions are about 'earning points', their all about objectives. If that autocannon snipes off a single guardian jetbike from 40" away netting you more objectives as the game ends -- was it worth 10 points? I would argue it was worth the game.

Peregrine wrote:with the new FAQ on wound allocation having a 48" weapon ensures that you never waste any plasma/melta shots.

Excellent point.
If you have an enemy squad sitting about 24" away, you don't want to lose kills by not being in range. The autocannon addresses this issue.

48" imperial guns did get better with the new FAQ. I love my 48" guns and will pay for them every time. Range lets me get in first strikes and makes it so enemies can't dance outside my range.

Martel732 wrote:
48" imperial guns did get better with the new FAQ. I love my 48" guns and will pay for them every time. Range lets me get in first strikes and makes it so enemies can't dance outside my range.

48" guns didn't get better, it's that only having short ranged guns got nerfed.

If you like Autocannons, you could always try:
2x CCS, autocannon and melta gun
3x PCS, autocannon and melta gun
6x PIS, autocannon and melta gun
15x heavy support teams, each with 3x autocannons.

1835 points, 24 scoring units, and 56 auto cannons. The 11 melta guns are just in case something AV14/13 gets too close.

Yeah, just about everyone (you and your opponent) is going to be getting a cover save, but with this list, it's all about volume of fire.
I'm "Only" short 36 Autocannons to run this list.

-Matt

Seems like you would want a lot of those ACs to be lascannons.

Boy, it sure is good Autocannons are better than Lasc-

Oh wait. Nevermind.

Autocannons work best on Chaos Space Marine Havocs!

Yep, I just got my FW set in the mail. One for a regular squad, the other 4 for havocs. Its almost like they planned it......

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Boy, it sure is good Autocannons are better than Lasc-

Oh wait. Nevermind.

No idea how this myth got started.

Vs MEQ

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, 0.27 kills.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 wounds, 0.27 kills with 5+ cover.

vs AV 11

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.5 HPs, 0.33 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 HPs, 0.27 penetrating

vs AV 12

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.16 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.22 penetrating.

Autocannon is equal to or superior to lascannons is almost all ways. Oh and they cost less too.

+! on damage table. Therefore pens are twice as effective. also deals with terminators. also better vs MEQ out of cover.

Las cannons are pretty much always better unless you are plasma/auto inf squads, then its acceptable. HWT should always be lascannon but are way overcosted so... just grab sabres or vendettas. Or if you need to kill a vehicle a medusa with bastion breacher shells.

zephoid wrote:
+! on damage table. Therefore pens are twice as effective. also deals with terminators. also better vs MEQ out of cover.

Las cannons are pretty much always better unless you are plasma/auto inf squads, then its acceptable. HWT should always be lascannon but are way overcosted so... just grab sabres or vendettas. Or if you need to kill a vehicle a medusa with bastion breacher shells.

At 1850, I get 56 autocannons or 41 lascannons.
+1 on the damage table is nice, but doesn't do much unless it's the first shot in. With the lascannon 5+ destroys. Great, right? Not exactly. All it means is 2/3rds of the time, you paid a lot of points to still just do a hull point (and stun/immobilize/destroy a weapon). So what happens when you shoot a lascannon at the tank again? Now you're firing a premium weapon at a reduced value target.

At least in a spam them list, the 15 extra heavy weapons (along with 5 more scoring squads, and 30 extra points), can lay down the smack as well as the lascannons could.

Seriously, who wouldn't want 112 S7 shots?

I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

 BryllCream wrote:
I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one)

Not by a long shot

Orky Autocannons aka Lootas' DeffGun is the best gun we have. D3 shots otherwise identical to AC's.

Nothing wrong with wounding on a 2+ when that's all that's left on the board. Also, with the surge in T5 Bike lists, they're still wounding on 2+.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

It's not that simple. I don't want to get that close to a vindicator ior demolisher. You go right ahead.

The whole point of meltavets is to drive up to things and melta them to death. You can't be squeemish about casualties as the guard.

Ditto stormtroopers.

 BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

occationally you might be over 6" away from a target and need a lascannon to take things out.

 BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

Yeah, Lascannons aren't great for anti-tank duty. Not when there are better weapons out there to do it with. Lascannons simply aren't good enough. Considering you need a 5+ to even glance with a Lascannon, Meltaguns or even meltabombs are so much more effective, despite having 1/4 the range.

 BryllCream wrote:
The whole point of meltavets is to drive up to things and melta them to death. You can't be squeemish about casualties as the guard.

Ditto stormtroopers.

This.

The Demolisher Cannon disappears when a Stormtrooper Squad parachutes in and meltas it into a pile of hot wreckage.

 Exergy wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

occationally you might be over 6" away from a target and need a lascannon to take things out.

Anything over 6" away from the guard isn't a threat

The problem with autocannon spam: The min you run into terminators you have nothing. Las cannons not only kill terminators, they also deal with terminator ICs who love absorbing all those autocannon wounds. Also, guard works via alpha strike. Blowing up vehicles 1st turn is more important than stripping HP over the course of the game. You need to remove opponent's threats fast, autocannons dont reliably do that. They are decent vs every target, good vs none. Guard really doesnt need a lot of that. Let blob squads deal with inf, you need to dedicate HWT to killing tanks/deathstars.

For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I'm talking in general. Things sometimes go wrong trying to get in melta range. Lascannons can start firing from turn 1. Also, there are armies other than IG that may not have sacrificial melta guys.

 BryllCream wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Boy, it sure is good Autocannons are better than Lasc-

Oh wait. Nevermind.

No idea how this myth got started.

Vs MEQ

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, 0.27 kills.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 wounds, 0.27 kills with 5+ cover.

vs AV 11

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.5 HPs, 0.33 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 HPs, 0.27 penetrating

vs AV 12

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.16 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.22 penetrating.

Autocannon is equal to or superior to lascannons is almost all ways. Oh and they cost less too.

Uh. Even your math only shows the Autocannon only beating out the LC against AV11. Not to mention, your math neglects to show chance of explosion. (Hint. The Lascannon has 2x the chance to blow a vehicle up.) Factor in AP2, the ability to PEN AV13/14,a nd causing ID to t4 and it becomes clear.

They're remarkably superior. No myth.

Autocannon is long range torrent weapon. It's very good at that job. Very, very good. But against AV 13/14 and MCs with 3+ armor, teqs, etc they can be very pedestrian. It's best to have variety, so you can deal with many different types of threats.

zephoid wrote:
For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I feel like the Manticore is worthy of a mention too.

 alarmingrick wrote:

zephoid wrote:
For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I feel like the Manticore is worthy of a mention too.

No one takes BB Medusae, or Vanquishers.

And Manticores really should be shooting at hordes.

Melta and Lascannon are the good, TAC anti-AV13+. It's just fact.

Melta is obviously more devastating, but the range can be murder. Literally. That being said, my lists usually have more melta than lascannons. The lascannons are really there for speciality cases and popping transports at long range to strand troops. Does it always work? Of course not. Do I pay for lascannons of devastators? No. But there are economical ways to field lascannons. The auto/las pred is a very good platform because the 48" guns let it keep its AV 13 front towards the enemy at all times, barring deep strikes and whatnot.

I run DKOK. I dont have melta-vets or stormtroopers. I do get medusa emplacements which are now 11-Wound T7 artillery now however. Also, my vanquishers get the Coax gun which TL the main weapon if it hits once, making vanquishers very good.


Melta vets are largely overrated IMO. Running eldar enough i know how unreliable melta is even when you can precision place it from disembarking from skimmers. 5 man FD squads do not guarantee dead vehicles, esp on higher armor values. Dropping them from vendettas is very risky because if you are outside of 6 you dont do much of anything. Chimeras get stunned/shaken and the passengers cant fire accurately, making that transport method less reliable than it was last edition. Vs ven dreds, battlewagons, or some LR players that works well, but vs preds, LRBs or even a good vindicator player they can keep outside of melta unless you come to them which bares a lot of problems. Also, with terminators becoming more and more prevalent, plasma is replacing a lot of melta in vets to help put wounds on them. 3 meltas doesnt even kill a TH/SS terminator reliably.

Melta stormies you are spending 100 points on 2 melta guns at BS4. You are more accurately inside 6, but not guaranteed. Between possible scatter, missing, failed pens, poor damage results, and possible cover, you are chancing a LOT of dice rolls there.

BB medusa are now more accurate thanks to the blast changes this edition. 48" S10 AP1 2d6 pen isnt chancing it like melta. It if hits, it will damage something important. Also, with ADL you have can have reliable cover at pretty long range. You also get more than 1 volly from this in most situations whereas vets you rarely get a 2nd. With DKOK its even better as the emplacement survives forever from shooting and the regular shell from it is 24-120" barrage rather than the C:IG's 36" direct fire (i generally run 1 of each emplacement).

If you're spamming heavy weapons you'll need both kinds to keep from getting screwed. That autocannon list would be screwed vs a landraider list or a necron with the barges and whatnot. Both weapons fill different roles after all.

At the very least, you'd want lascannons for sniping bulletsoak ic's at the front of a squad and to deal with MC's. That way once the lascannons have popped the guy that's designed to eat up shots, the autocannons could be a little more effective.

And of course the lascannon is twice as good at killing tanks since it's twice as much. I'd still rather have them in mostuations over autocannons though.

Cost of weapon means little since HWT cost so much base. The cost is ~20% more for lascannons over autocannons

Platoons deal with inf, thats what they are there for. FRFSRF is amazing vs any type of non-vehicle. However they are 24". Therefore, put autocannons in them to help with inf and give them a longer range to deal with vehicles before their usefulness becomes applicable. Also compliments most other types of weapons available to PIS (grenade, plasma, even flamers to an extent).

CCS and PCS is up to you. Personally i dont like them in either because it draws fire but a lot of people like CCS with lascannons.

zephoid wrote:
Cost of weapon means little since HWT cost so much base. The cost is ~20% more for lascannons over autocannons

Platoons deal with inf, thats what they are there for. FRFSRF is amazing vs any type of non-vehicle. However they are 24". Therefore, put autocannons in them to help with inf and give them a longer range to deal with vehicles before their usefulness becomes applicable. Also compliments most other types of weapons available to PIS (grenade, plasma, even flamers to an extent).

CCS and PCS is up to you. Personally i dont like them in either because it draws fire but a lot of people like CCS with lascannons.

All of this logic is...disagreeable.

Platoons deal with inf, thats what they are there for. FRFSRF is amazing vs any type of non-vehicle.

No. No it's not. Lasguns are terrible.

Therefore, put autocannons in them to help with inf and give them a longer range to deal with vehicles before their usefulness becomes applicable.

Give them a mediocre anti-vehicle weapon for 48"-24", and then kill the rest with lasguns?

Also compliments most other types of weapons available to PIS (grenade, plasma, even flamers to an extent).

So Autocannons compliment two bad special weapons, and Plasma. Know what synergizes better with Plasma? AP2 Strength 9.

Cheers,
-CaptainGrey

3 platoons firing at 24" with FRFSRF is equal to 27 bolters at the same range. Throw in PE from SW or doom from eldar and they become pretty darn amazing (22.5 wounds on T4 at 12). Your view is terrible is based on comparing them to other weapons on higher point cost models and removing the synergy guard can generate both internally and with their allies of convenience.


lascannons in PIS is a waste. Lascannons are not effective MEQ killers, especially when cover of any kind factors in (often craters w guard) or the targets have inv saves. Plasma is twice as effective for less points. Autocannons are effective vs most targets a PIS should be concentrating on. using PIS on vehicles when within 24" is only if the vehicle is a significant more threat than being assaulted, which is almost never between G2G and GBITF, aegis, and the effectiveness of guard in melee.

3x lascannons in HWT can get Bring it Down which significantly increases their effectiveness vs vehicles. PIS should often be getting FRFSRF or FOMC if the plasmas can double tap

I don't know the specifics of how the IG are organized. Sounds like they want the lascannons in HWT. It's kinda like marines want them on predators, not devastators squads.

I have to agree. I don't shoot lascannons at meqs until there's nothing left for them, which is usually good. (But sometimes bad)

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

zephoid wrote:
For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I feel like the Manticore is worthy of a mention too.

And Manticores really should be shooting at hordes.

1-3 Str 10 pie plates should just shoot at hordes, really?
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. With the
center hole of the blast marker not having to hit for
full effect helps it even more. But hey, whatever trips
your trigger.

Sounds like the manticore has a variety of uses. What's the range on it?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Uh. Even your math only shows the Autocannon only beating out the LC against AV11.

...and MEQ in cover 5+ cover. In ruins, autocannons come out on top. So we'll call that a draw. So actually I can say with factual accuracy that Autocannons are equal to lascannons vs MEQ and superior vs AV 10/11 and mobs.

Not to mention, your math neglects to show chance of explosion. (Hint. The Lascannon has 2x the chance to blow a vehicle up.) Factor in AP2, the ability to PEN AV13/14,a nd causing ID to t4 and it becomes clear.

BS lascannon vs AV 11 has a 0.5*0.6*0.3 chance to pop it outright. That's 9%. That's the only thing the lascannon has over AC 11, other than vs non-SS termies.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

They're remarkably superior. No myth.

Myth, busted!

 BryllCream wrote:

They're remarkably superior. No myth.

Myth, busted!

just to quickly pop a question in here. How do the Autocannons fair when you throw in an opponent with flyers?
i realize a lascannon once it pens is more likely to explode it, but isnt the AC's advantage 2x chance to hit with weight of shots?
happy to have this negatively shut down

This seems like a senseless argument. They are best used in conjunction with each other. They are both superior to the ML and the HB, imo.

ausYenLoWang wrote:
just to quickly pop a question in here. How do the Autocannons fair when you throw in an opponent with flyers?
i realize a lascannon once it pens is more likely to explode it, but isnt the AC's advantage 2x chance to hit with weight of shots?
happy to have this negatively shut down

The comparison would be the same as shooting at regular targets of the same AV. Both have the same chance to pen as before, same chance to glance as before, and same chance to explode as before.

Only difference, is everything gets multiplied by 1/6.

Against higher AVs and 2+ armor, I'm sure that you will find that the ACs efficacy wanes. So what? It's still a great weapon.

Martel732 wrote:
Against higher AVs and 2+ armor, I'm sure that you will find that the ACs efficacy wanes. So what? It's still a great weapon.

No one is arguing whether its good or not. It's a fine weapon.

The discussion is whether or not weapon X is better.

Here is my philosophy as a BA player. My heavy weapons are there to kill things that my assault marines can not bash in the head or boltguns can't torrent. So I favor MMs and LCs over all other heavies. Hordes are a secondary consideration, because I can form up ranks and charge for the Emprah with BA fury! A LR full of chaos terminators, on the other hand, has the same assault range as my jump troops, so the assault transport has to go down, and autocannons just can't make that happen. I do run both in my lists, however, because my list is heavy on firepower.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

ausYenLoWang wrote:
just to quickly pop a question in here. How do the Autocannons fair when you throw in an opponent with flyers?
i realize a lascannon once it pens is more likely to explode it, but isnt the AC's advantage 2x chance to hit with weight of shots?
happy to have this negatively shut down

The comparison would be the same as shooting at regular targets of the same AV. Both have the same chance to pen as before, same chance to glance as before, and same chance to explode as before.

Only difference, is everything gets multiplied by 1/6.

ok so the autocannon would be a more efficent weapon due to the AV10-12 on flyers?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

You've shown that AC's are better against "mobs" and weak transports.

/golfclap

Color me unimpressed. It has a much narrower threat-range, and even a narrower range at which it excels. Sounds like a waste of 10 points and a Heavy Weapon slot, unless you're facing green tide backed by trukks.

And equal against MEQ. Lascannons cost 50% more than autocannons for no increase in damage output vs MEQs, AV10 and AV11.

The mathhammer in this thread is failing so badly. Instead of looking at very large sample averages, which tell you absolutely nothing about individual trials, it is much more helpful to look at the probabilities of achieving a certain event I'll only post results for 1 to 3 HWTs and only for land based vehicles. A similar analysis can be done for infantry/mc/fliers

So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle?

AC vs.....p(3HP stripped).....p(explodes!).........p(total).......................... LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!) ........p(total)
AV10.......0..............................0.081597222.......0.081597222................AV10.......0.....................................0.138888889........0.138888889
AV11.......0..............................0.054783951.......0.054783951................AV11.......0.....................................0.111111111........0.111111111
AV12.......0..............................0.027584877.......0.027584877................AV12.......0.....................................0.083333333........0.083333333
AV13.......0..............................0.............................0......................................AV13.......0.....................................0.055555556........0.055555556
AV14.......0..............................0.............................0......................................AV14.......0.....................................0.027777778........0.027777778


What is the probability that two heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)................... LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.077537254............... 0.156536338........0.234073592........AV10.......0.....................................0.258487654........0.258487654
AV11.......0.03657979..................0.10656662..........0.14314641..........AV11.......0.....................................0.209876543........0.209876543
AV12.......0.012629561................0.054408828.......0.067038389........AV12.......0.....................................0.159722222........0.159722222
AV13.......0.002170139................0.............................0.002170139........AV13.......0.....................................0.108024691........0.108024691
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................A.V14......0.....................................0.054783951........0.054783951

What is the probability that three heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3 HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!)..........p(total).................. LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.240412153................0.22536063..........0.411593349...... AV10.......0.047089335................0.36147548..........0.391543175
AV11.......0.128044317................0.15551243..........0.263644264.......AV11.......0.028527949................0.297668038.......0.317704129
AV12.......0.049672929................0.080492843.......0.126167457....... AV12.......0.015625.......................0.22974537..........0.241780599
AV13.......0.009545262................0.............................0.009545262........AV13.......0.00735168................ 0.157578875........0.163772086
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................AV14.......0.002679184................0.081039952.......0.083502015

I won't analyze and interpret the results for you, but if you can read, and have any sort of analytical skill at all, its quite easy to do.

The math is different for each kind of AV I think.

Let's see.........

AV 10 flyer:

Each autocannon shot strips .11 HP and has a .014 chance of exploding the flyer. So both shots strip .22 HP and have a .028 chance of exploding it.

The lascannon strips .17 HP and has a .046 chance of blowing up the flier.

AV 11 flyer:

Autocannon: each shot strips .08 HP and has a .009 chance of exploding it. So both shots strip .16 HP and a .018 chance of exploding it.

Lascannon: it strips 0.14 HP and has a .037 chance of exploding it.

AV 12 flyer:

Autocannon: each shot strips .06 HP and has a .005 chance to explode, so .12 HP and .01 chance from both shots.

Lascannon: strips 0.11 HP and a .028 chance to explode it.

Frankly, all of these odds are terrible. This gets better with twinlinked, though. Roughly doubled.

 Barksdale wrote:
The mathhammer in this thread is failing so badly. Instead of looking at very large sample averages, which tell you absolutely nothing about individual trials, it is much more helpful to look at the probabilities of achieving a certain event I'll only post results for 1 to 3 HWTs and only for land based vehicles. A similar analysis can be done for infantry/mc/fliers
So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle?

The math may be correct, but the approach is flawed.
In a typical guard list is going to have 15-20 heavy weapons.
Looking at an approach of must do 3 hull points is flawed. You can easily have the first few heavy weapons fail to pop and strip a hull point or two.
What I want is a table that breaks down odds of 1 hull point, 2 hull points, and 3 hull points, with destroyed a fourth column (because not all vehicles have 3 hull points).

That would give me a better idea of how to maximize my fire in an army with a variety of heavy weapons.

-Matt

This again?

Straight comparisons between the Las and AC only work so well..you will always end up with is "the AC is better at some things and worse than others than the Las."

I think you have to ask what it is you want the Las to do and then see if there are better options to achieve that goal...same thing for the AC.

Andrew

That's what I tried to say, but someone wanted numbers.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
The mathhammer in this thread is failing so badly. Instead of looking at very large sample averages, which tell you absolutely nothing about individual trials, it is much more helpful to look at the probabilities of achieving a certain event I'll only post results for 1 to 3 HWTs and only for land based vehicles. A similar analysis can be done for infantry/mc/fliers
So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle?

The math may be correct, but the approach is flawed.
In a typical guard list is going to have 15-20 heavy weapons.
Looking at an approach of must do 3 hull points is flawed. You can easily have the first few heavy weapons fail to pop and strip a hull point or two.
What I want is a table that breaks down odds of 1 hull point, 2 hull points, and 3 hull points, with destroyed a fourth column (because not all vehicles have 3 hull points).

That would give me a better idea of how to maximize my fire in an army with a variety of heavy weapons.

-Matt

Go for it mate. That table will tell you the same thing, or whatever ridiculous table you want to come up with. Las is better in almost every situation.

My original post was actually about bringing in 3 or 4 Autocannons to augment mech guard. Someone decided to turn it into spam AC or spam lascannon

 BryllCream wrote:
My original post was actually about bringing in 3 or 4 Autocannons to augment mech guard. Someone decided to turn it into spam AC or spam lascannon

Well then the question becomes:

What are the weaknesses of your list.

Are you running parking lot, or Leafblower

What Vets are the HW's going with?

 Barksdale wrote:


Go for it mate. That table will tell you the same thing, or whatever ridiculous table you want to come up with. Las is better in almost every situation.

The Las is far weaker versus hoards and AR 10 and 11 and close to identical versus AV 12. The AC does have certain advantages versus the Las. Amongst them is not killing AV 13 and 14, and terminators.

Basically, the guy has come up with numbers and you have arbitrarily decided to ignore them because they don't support your argument. So.... what then is the crux of your position? That Las cannons are better because you say so. Wow. Well file that under solved.

Saying "the las is better" without numbers or context is just ignorant. Why put las in an IS when you have them on vendettas? Why consider IS as a good place for a Las when you have CCS and Vet squds with BS4? If the point of your Las is anti-vehicle then putting them in a non-bs4 unit is kinda nuts. Heck, wouldn't you rather have vets with meltas?

If you actually think about it, you'll find that a balanced, non spam, approach to a guard army works best. You need las..but you also need horde killers as well. Las are great but are overpriced and over powered when dealing with DE raider spam. AC are great but kinda useless versus termie heavy armies.

ender502

I like a mix, but I tend to favour autocannons more. More shots is often better than less. Its very discouraging to miss with your lascannon.

And against TEQ, who also have unvulnerable saves (the storm shield variety have a 3++), then the effectiveness of a lascannon over autocannon is not as much.

Consider against Storm Shield termis. Both wound on a 2+, but the lascannon has double the chance for a storm shield termi to miss a save as compared to autocannon. However, I get two shots with autocannon compared to lascannon. So, they are exactly the same against storm shield termis. And since most people will usually bring the storm shield termi variety, I would say the two are about even against TEQ.

But the autocannon is much better against fliers because of 2 shots vs the lascannon's 1 shot.

Its only against high AV targets like landraiders or AV 13 targets where lascannon is better, but here, even the lascannon is not exactly that efficient. Best way against such targets is to hit them on their back armor, or hit them with a melta close range.

Can we get a math hammer list that gives stats on the following

Lascannon, Autocannon, Melta gun, Plasma gun, Lasgun, Storm Eagle Rockits & Medusa Seige Cannon (Not the one with Bastion Breacher Shells)

At ranges of 6", 12", 24", 36" & 48"

Verses
A squad of 10 MEQ
A Squad of 5 reg TEQ
A Squad of 5 TH/SS TEQ
A Squad of 31 GEQ (includes a Commisar)
A Squad of 30 Orkboys
A Tank with AV10 & 3HP
A Tank with AV11 & 3HP
A Tank with AV12 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 4HP
A Tank with AV14 & 3HP
A Tank with AV14 & 4HP
A Flyer with AV10
A Flyer with AV11
A Flyer with AV12
A Dread Knight
A Flying Hive Tyrant with Iron Arm
A Tervigon with Iron Arm
A Squad if 6 Nob Bikers with FNP
A Squad of 5 Pally's and Dragio with FNP

Once you have the list made up don't forget to include the effects of a 5+, 4+, 3+ & 2+ Cover saves and then how many points it would cost you to completly take out a unit of this type. This will give you the units ecconmy level and we will finally be able to solve this riddle.

I'm very interested to see the findings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the sake of Augument lets say the Ordnance weapons hit the armour 1/3 of the time and the average amount of models non-vehicle models hit is 4. Unless someone has a better idea

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I like a mix, but I tend to favour autocannons more. More shots is often better than less. Its very discouraging to miss with your lascannon.

And against TEQ, who also have unvulnerable saves (the storm shield variety have a 3++), then the effectiveness of a lascannon over autocannon is not as much.

16% higher. And causes instant death.

Consider against Storm Shield termis. Both wound on a 2+, but the lascannon has double the chance for a storm shield termi to miss a save as compared to autocannon. However, I get two shots with autocannon compared to lascannon. So, they are exactly the same against storm shield termis. And since most people will usually bring the storm shield termi variety, I would say the two are about even against TEQ.

You would say they are about even against TEQ, after assuming all TEQ are TH/SS Termies, and then not running further math.

But the autocannon is much better against fliers because of 2 shots vs the lascannon's 1 shot.

Except the AC only has a (after hitting) 16% chance to pen AV12 flyers, vs. the LC's 50%

Its only against high AV targets like landraiders or AV 13 targets where lascannon is better, but here, even the lascannon is not exactly that efficient.

Despite being moreso than the Autocannon

Best way against such targets is to hit them on their back armor, or hit them with a melta close range.

Both of which aren't really relevant

Interesting points you've got there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sinji wrote:
Can we get a math hammer list that gives stats on the following

Lascannon, Autocannon, Melta gun, Plasma gun, Lasgun, Storm Eagle Rockits & Medusa Seige Cannon (Not the one with Bastion Breacher Shells)

At ranges of 6", 12", 24", 36" & 48"

Verses
A squad of 10 MEQ
A Squad of 5 reg TEQ
A Squad of 5 TH/SS TEQ
A Squad of 31 GEQ (includes a Commisar)
A Squad of 30 Orkboys
A Tank with AV10 & 3HP
A Tank with AV11 & 3HP
A Tank with AV12 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 4HP
A Tank with AV14 & 3HP
A Tank with AV14 & 4HP
A Flyer with AV10
A Flyer with AV11
A Flyer with AV12
A Dread Knight
A Flying Hive Tyrant with Iron Arm
A Tervigon with Iron Arm
A Squad if 6 Nob Bikers with FNP
A Squad of 5 Pally's and Dragio with FNP

Once you have the list made up don't forget to include the effects of a 5+, 4+, 3+ & 2+ Cover saves and then how many points it would cost you to completly take out a unit of this type. This will give you the units ecconmy level and we will finally be able to solve this riddle.

I'm very interested to see the findings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the sake of Augument lets say the Ordnance weapons hit the armour 1/3 of the time and the average amount of models non-vehicle models hit is 4. Unless someone has a better idea

Er...why don't you do it?

The math is incredibly simple.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Seriously, they are each good in different situations. I don't think you can conclusively say one is better than the other. You just have to make a judgement call based on what you face in your meta scene and what is the purpose you bring them for...

BryllCream wrote:Lascannons cost 50% more than autocannons for no increase in damage output vs MEQs in 5+ cover, AV10 and AV11.

I think the entirety of the sillyness of what's going on here can be expressed in just this one sentence.

Against MEq, you're making a bad comparison by not setting up the same parameters (with the cover saves), and against vehicles you're ignoring vehicle explosions. Not only do these kill dudes in transports, but stopping a vehicle now with an explosion is better than stopping it eventually by glancing it to death.

Plus, even if we assume that your conclusions are correct, what you're talking about is a weapon that has no increase in damage output in three specific scenarios (aka niche roles). And all you're doing is saving a few measly points. Meanwhile, if you look outside of said three situations, the lascannon absolutely eats the autocannon for breakfast. The lascannon runs away with it against heavier vehicles (important now that people are shifting up to higher AVs, and meltaguns aren't offensive weapons against opponents who know anything at all about movement or target prioritization), and the lascannon is strictly better against monstrous creatures of every type. And against terminators (including being four times better against paladins). Pretty much the only thing the autocannon is better against is hordes, but that doesn't really matter, because autocannons are a terrible anti-horde weapon (especially in a codex that gets hellhounds and manticores and punishers and colossuses, etc. etc.)

To put it briefly. You have the option of spending 20 points for something that is good against basically everything, or spending 10 points for something that is equal to a couple of tasks, and then much worse against the vast majority of everything else.

Saving a handful of points in this case is wasteful. Just find the few extra points and take real guns fir your weapon slots.

I feel as if the only folk still clinging to their Autocannons are the ones that don't want to buy more HWS's.

LC are predators and AC are scavengers. A grown man has good cause to fear a 600 pound bear, where coyotes are pretty much harmless unless you just had an accident resulting in a broken hip and broken leg. Then for a pack of 15 coyotes you're a warm lunch.

Ever smash a dreadnought or rhino down to 1 HP?

Ever have a vendetta break quantum shielding only to stun or immobilize an annihilation barge?

In both situations the AC out performs additional LC shots, by a lot. Here is an simple and interesting math hammer for you. AC v LC performance on the single hp wounded vehicle.

Odds per shot/volley to wreck bs3

Av10
Lc=6/12
Ac=8/12

Av11
Lc=5/12
Ac=6/12

Av12
Lc=4/12
Ac=4/12

Av13
Lc=2/12
Ac=2/12

Playing traitor guard I find ac have good synergy with flamers of Tzeentch, and the points saved from downgrading 4 lc to ac can almost buy me 2 more flamers.

Edit: Nevermind.

More math hammer.

Against 2HP targets a penetrating LC hit will strip them down to 1 HP 66.666% of the time.

Against 3 HP targets a pair of penetrating LC hits will strip them down to 1 HP 44% of time time.

After that there's no point in sicking having a bear maul an already near dead target when coyotes can do the job. Death by hp stripping should never be plan A, but gak happens which frequently puts plan B into play.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Against 2HP targets a penetrating LC hit will strip them down to 1 HP 66.666% of the time.

Er...

Wouldn't a Penetrating Lascannon hit strip a hullpoint 100% of the time?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Against 2HP targets a penetrating LC hit will strip them down to 1 HP 66.666% of the time.

Er...

Wouldn't a Penetrating Lascannon hit strip a hullpoint 100% of the time?

The remaining third strips it down to a burning crater.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Against 2HP targets a penetrating LC hit will strip them down to 1 HP 66.666% of the time.

Er...

Wouldn't a Penetrating Lascannon hit strip a hullpoint 100% of the time?

The remaining third strips it down to a burning crater.

I see. Interesting way of representing such a result. Makes it look as if 33% of the time it just does nothing.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Against 2HP targets a penetrating LC hit will strip them down to 1 HP 66.666% of the time.

Er...

Wouldn't a Penetrating Lascannon hit strip a hullpoint 100% of the time?

The remaining third strips it down to a burning crater.

I see. Interesting way of representing such a result. Makes it look as if 33% of the time it just does nothing.

Technically it still strips a hull point

 CaptainGrey wrote:


I feel as if the only folk still clinging to their Autocannons are the ones that don't want to buy more HWS's.

I think if you are putting Las in HWS you are missing something....important. HWS are too fragile a unit to put a Lascannon.

Alairos- I think you are still missing the point. The question is not what is better, the AC or the Las, but are there better options to fulfill the roles that each are supposed to fill? In terms of the Las, I think there are vastly better options. Most notably, melta vets versus vehicles and plasma vets versus MEQ, TEQs and Monstrous creatures, vendettas versus any vehicle.

Personally, I think everyone would benefit from a discussion on options to the AC as well as the Las. I think Las are incredibly important but i wouldn't put it in an IS. I would always drop it on a BS4 unit or a TL unit. Putting a Las on a vet squad would seem to be great (bs4) but ignores the greatest advantage of the vets, BS4 and multiple special weapons.

ender502

Well the qusstion is for 40pts would it better to have 8x Autocannon Shots or 2x Lascannon shot. The purpose of the need for either in the this list was a turn 1 & maybe 2 Alpha Strike capability.

In this case which would be of more use. I'm actually going to go with the Autocannon on this one.

You have to account for carrier cost as well.
if you go along the lines of ailorous where "effectiveness is king" then the 2 lascannon shots will be better. Maybe.
If you go along the lines where "efficiency is king" then 8 autocannon shots is better.
Only when the carrier cost is >70
And that includes special weapons
and PCS tax.

PCS tax? Excuse me?

The PCS is outstanding. 4 special weapon slots on a 30 point scoring unit? Yes please.

 ender502 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:


I feel as if the only folk still clinging to their Autocannons are the ones that don't want to buy more HWS's.

I think if you are putting Las in HWS you are missing something....important. HWS are too fragile a unit to put a Lascannon.

No one said anything about using HWS's, but the new boxes come in squads of 3. 3 Teams. One HWS. How you split them up is up to your discretion.

Alairos- I think you are still missing the point. The question is not what is better, the AC or the Las, but are there better options to fulfill the roles that each are supposed to fill? In terms of the Las, I think there are vastly better options. Most notably, melta vets versus vehicles and plasma vets versus MEQ, TEQs and Monstrous creatures, vendettas versus any vehicle.

Yeah, Lascannons are better on Vendettas, and Melta is better at killing AV14, but Lascannons are still the most useful heavy weapon, so why give your guardsmen a less useful one if they're going to be firing at stuff regardless?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:
PCS tax? Excuse me?

The PCS is outstanding. 4 special weapon slots on a 30 point scoring unit? Yes please.

It's really not that hot. It's 5 guardsmen.

The Carrier cost has been covered. The post was started as a possible upgrade to a few Vet squads in Chineras.

 BryllCream wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Against 2HP targets a penetrating LC hit will strip them down to 1 HP 66.666% of the time.

Er...

Wouldn't a Penetrating Lascannon hit strip a hullpoint 100% of the time?

The remaining third strips it down to a burning crater.

I see. Interesting way of representing such a result. Makes it look as if 33% of the time it just does nothing.

Technically it still strips a hull point

If this were YMDC we could spend the next 15 pages debating if it strips a HP before exploding or if exploding invalidates it as a target for having it's hull point stripped...

I think the interesting question is what should the ratio of AC to LC shots be?

I think as a minimum an army should have at least 1 ac per vendetta.

6 AC shots on a HWS is a silly amount of firepower on a very fragile unit. 3 LC on a HWS is an even more silly amount of firepower on a very fragile unit.

I don't even think PCS or CCS should be sporting a LC due to the squad being too fragile. It's a fragile 5 man squad with the officers attached that already draws too much firepower onto it without a LC. Adding a LC to a 5 man squad only helps remind an opponent that they should really be shooting at it if possible. Adding an AC to a 5 man squad while the LC are in the 10 man squads doesn't help draw more firepower onto the 5 mans.

I was about to argue that in PIS and PCS that the points saved was worth it to downgrade some lascannons to autocannon. But it isn't. At 10 points a pop, the only time you should choose Autocannon over lascannon is if you choose to spam heavy weapon squads.

I was wrong, Ailaros was correct. The idea of mixing autocannons with lascannons seems good, but you don't save enough points to get anything of value.
If you're running 18 lascannons, swapping 8 of them to autocannons only gets you 1 more lascannon squad.

-Matt

Corollax wrote:
PCS tax? Excuse me?

The PCS is outstanding. 4 special weapon slots on a 30 point scoring unit? Yes please.

You still *have* to take them. I'm not arguing that they aren't useful but you have to do something with them.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

Corollax wrote:
PCS tax? Excuse me?

The PCS is outstanding. 4 special weapon slots on a 30 point scoring unit? Yes please.

You still *have* to take them. I'm not arguing that they aren't useful but you have to do something with them.

For those dismissive of them, 4 Flamers on a PCS, in a HF/HF Chimera is a nasty box of surprises.
Will I claim it to be the build to end all builds? No.

But it certainly has it's uses for a 105 point scoring unit, that can give orders.

All flamer PCSis great. Put them in a HF/HF chimera and they are crazy good.

ender502

Problem is if you move you can only shoot 1 HF so your better off with a ML/HF Chimera so you can snap fire the Multi-Laser

 BryllCream wrote:
I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one) and I noticed that I've been missing a trick with autocannons. They'll get 0.37 MEQ kills per salvo (at BS4), which means they'll only have to shoot twice to get a decent chance of getting their points back. They're also handy for stripping hull points off enemy transports, and give your vets something to do turn 1. They also can be taken on my vets, essentially a "free slot". Obviously I'd take another plasma gun if I could...but I can't.

Yes they'll be snap firing a lot - but as i said above, only 2 rounds will get their points back. My average 1500 list would have say 3 mechvets, 30 points for three autocannons just seems like a bargain.

I never responded to your original post..which makes me as much of an argumentative jerk as some.

A single BS4 AC shot has a 19% chance of successfully wounding. The second shot bumps a turn of firing up to about 36%. The las, at BS 4 has about a 56% chance of a kill versus a marine. When you are dealing with BS4 i'd always go with the Las.

At BS 6 the 2 AC shots have about 16.5% chance of succesfully wounding. At BS 6 the Las about a 13% chance of a succesful wound. In that instance the AC looks like the marginally better choice at a few points cheaper versus MEQ.

ender502

 ender502 wrote:


Saying "the las is better" without numbers or context is just ignorant.

Mate, I'm going to refer you to this post, literally just a few above yours.

 ender502 wrote:
Why put las in an IS when you have them on vendettas? Why consider IS as a good place for a Las when you have CCS and Vet squds with BS4? If the point of your Las is anti-vehicle then putting them in a non-bs4 unit is kinda nuts. Heck, wouldn't you rather have vets with meltas?

If you actually think about it, you'll find that a balanced, non spam, approach to a guard army works best. You need las..but you also need horde killers as well. Las are great but are overpriced and over powered when dealing with DE raider spam. AC are great but kinda useless versus termie heavy armies.

Make all the claims you want mate. The math speaks for itself. Sure ACs might be marginally better in a handful of situations situations, but if you are not list tailoring, the las wins hands down every time.

Why does this thread have so many entries? The AC is a superior torrent weapon. It's great at dealing with low AV and units in cover that will ignore the AP 2 aspect of the lascannon.

But as the more complete chart shows, the wheels start to fall off ACs at about AV 12. Lascannons will also reliably kill heavy units out in the open (remember that one of the benefits of 2+ and 3+ armor is that you don't have to stick to cover as much) and instagib many characters.

These weapons might have the same range, but they have completely different optimal jobs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is another reason I love the auto/las predator; I'm getting some of each type of fire, so I bet the net damage table for the auto/las is pretty consistent across AVs, excluding AV 14.

Martel732 wrote:The AC is a superior torrent weapon. It's great at dealing with low AV and units in cover that will ignore the AP 2 aspect of the lascannon.

Except it isn't. Autocannons and lascannons are both terrible weapons against units dug into deep cover, and the autocannon isn't even more effective against low-AV targets, just more efficient.

ender502 wrote:The question is not what is better, the AC or the Las, but are there better options to fulfill the roles that each are supposed to fill? In terms of the Las, I think there are vastly better options. Most notably, melta vets versus vehicles and plasma vets versus MEQ, TEQs and Monstrous creatures, vendettas versus any vehicle.

Firstly, if we're going to use this criteria, then autocannons are screwed. Way more weapons achieve what autocannons do than achieve what lascannons do.

Secondly, I think that lascannons stand up pretty well using this criteria, actually. You mention melta vets, for example, but they are NOT a replacement for lascannons. Not in the slightest.

Melta guns have a tiny range, which means that it's going to be rather easy for your opponent to simply move in such a way to stay out of range. Alternately, your opponent could have a shred of common sense and focus their fire on them before they can get any solid shots in. Meltaguns (outside of being dropped in by stormtroopers), are a purely defensive weapon, designed to punish your opponent for bringing expensive things close to you, not the other way around.

Meanwhile, lascannons start hitting stuff more or less anywhere on the board turn 1. This is important. Lascannons dismount those barge lords. Lascannons break open land raiders, causing the cargo to start out the game on THEIR side of the board. Lascannons take down your opponent's biggest threats before they have a chance to do serious damage. Meltaguns can't do any of this because of their range. Even on stormtroopers, they're not guaranteed to arrive on turn 2, meaning even they aren't hitting things quickly.

Lascannons take things down right now. There are a few analogues to this, like the vanquisher cannon, for example, but everything else shows up either too little, or too late.

Meanwhile, autocannons are guaranteed to suffer from both problems...

Okay I guess I shouldn't have said "great". But if marines are say getting a 4++ from a ruin or aegis line, it's better to have the extra wounds generated by the autocannon.

But I agree. Imperial opponent who cheap out on lascannons usually end up eating fire from my auto/las all game.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay I guess I shouldn't have said "great". But if marines are say getting a 4++ from a ruin or aegis line, it's better to have the extra wounds generated by the autocannon.

Sure, better, but so what?

An autocannon shooting at marines in cover is going four whole turns just to kill a single marine. If those marines really need to survive, then they get a 2+ cover save behind that aegis you're talking about, which means the autocannon isn't doing bumpkis. The entire game.

That's terrible.

Moreover, it's rather splitting hairs comparing the weapon on this metric. It would be like saying that grenade launchers are better than sniper rifles against terminators, and therefore grenade launchers are a good weapon to take against terminators.

I'm just curious then; would you say for marines the annihilator configuration should be used over auto/las?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Martel732 wrote:
I'm just curious then; would you say for marines the annihilator configuration should be used over auto/las?

Generally. I mean, I'm running lascannon+multimelta vanquishers right now...

That said, in the case of marines it's a little bit hazier. In the case of guard, prices are low, but carrier costs are high. Giving a vet squad a lascannon only increases its cost by a little over a third, for example, and giving a russ a hull lascannon is increasing its price by only a tenth, or less.

In the case of a pred, though, you nearly TRIPLE the cost by giving it the lascannons. That said, I'd still do it. Roughly 180 points for what basically amounts to 3 lascannon hits per turn on an AV13 chassis doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

Ailaros, is that predator comparison using the old predator prices, or what they're charging in the CSM (and presumably Dark Angels?) codices?

Uhh, from the current one. I don't keep close track of space marine stuff, so if they've changed it, I don't know.

Last I checked, it cost as much to give a predator lascannon sponsons as it did to take the tank in the first place.

 Ailaros wrote:

Firstly, if we're going to use this criteria, then autocannons are screwed. Way more weapons achieve what autocannons do than achieve what lascannons do.

Secondly, I think that lascannons stand up pretty well using this criteria, actually. You mention melta vets, for example, but they are NOT a replacement for lascannons. Not in the slightest.

Melta guns have a tiny range, which means that it's going to be rather easy for your opponent to simply move in such a way to stay out of range. Alternately, your opponent could have a shred of common sense and focus their fire on them before they can get any solid shots in. Meltaguns (outside of being dropped in by stormtroopers), are a purely defensive weapon, designed to punish your opponent for bringing expensive things close to you, not the other way around.

Meanwhile, lascannons start hitting stuff more or less anywhere on the board turn 1. This is important. Lascannons dismount those barge lords. Lascannons break open land raiders, causing the cargo to start out the game on THEIR side of the board. Lascannons take down your opponent's biggest threats before they have a chance to do serious damage. Meltaguns can't do any of this because of their range. Even on stormtroopers, they're not guaranteed to arrive on turn 2, meaning even they aren't hitting things quickly.

Lascannons take things down right now. There are a few analogues to this, like the vanquisher cannon, for example, but everything else shows up either too little, or too late.

Meanwhile, autocannons are guaranteed to suffer from both problems...

So..what can do what the autocannon can do...and lets talk infantry weapons.

But most importantly, you are still missing the point. You are talking stats versus context. The OP is looking for a snap weapon to add on with a few additional points. Under that criteria the AC is marginally better than the Las at killing marines. Not by much, but it is and it does it for cheaper.

Oh, and in regard sto Las cracking AV14.....A las cannon has 16.5% chance of wounding AV 14. and an 8% chance of penetrating. So, to guarantee a wound (glance or pen) AV 14 you will need about 6 Las. To guarantee a pen you would need double that. So, assuming a min IS squad ( and not counting the PCS) you are looking at 420 points to guarantee a glance (witha 50% chance of a pen) on AV 14. 260 gets you the vendetta and melta vets. Go up to 365 and you get the vendetta, melta vets and a min squad of melta storm troops as well.

The Las is great. And at BS4 it will always be my first choice. But in a guard army there are cheaper, and more flexible ways to achieve the same results.

ender502

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

Corollax wrote:
PCS tax? Excuse me?

The PCS is outstanding. 4 special weapon slots on a 30 point scoring unit? Yes please.

You still *have* to take them. I'm not arguing that they aren't useful but you have to do something with them.

For those dismissive of them, 4 Flamers on a PCS, in a HF/HF Chimera is a nasty box of surprises.
Will I claim it to be the build to end all builds? No.

But it certainly has it's uses for a 105 point scoring unit, that can give orders.

Of course they're useful and I'm not dismissing them, I'm just calling them a tax on the IS for the purposes of the argument I was making. 4 Flamers or an additional HW for pretty cheap? Damn straight. The orders? Meh. CCS has the orders you want.

 Che-Vito wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
Moreover, it's rather splitting hairs comparing the weapon on this metric. It would be like saying that grenade launchers are better than sniper rifles against terminators, and therefore grenade launchers are a good weapon to take against terminators.

Okay, you brought it up (and put a gun to my head) so I did the math.

3 BS4 Grenade Launchers [Krak Round] v.s. 3 BS4 Sniper Rifles

Snipers: 2 hits, 1 wound (0.66 normal, 0.33 Rend) = 0.33 unsaved TEQ with 2+/5++
Grenade Launcher: 2 hits, 1.66 wounds = 0.27 unsaved wounds

Sniper Rifle at 36" > Grenade Launcher at 24"
Unless you're moving with the firing models.

I'm genuine pissed that I bothered to do that math.

Why are you comparing the two worst upgrades available?

so kinda back along original topic.

i got 40 points, currently in 4 Autocannons with my Plasma loaded Vets.

Do I........

1. keep AC's?
2. swap for 2 Las Cannons
3. swap for 4 PowerAxes
4. swap for 4 plasma pistols?

what say you Dakka?

I'd swear by autocannons but everything seems to work against them. If you compare them to lascannons they suck. The lascannon hits all the right targets far better than the autocannon could. Even a heavy bolter outclasses the autocannon in the right area. The autocannon however is quite comparable to the missile launcher in a way. It is the jack of all trades but master of non. The autocannon, is for the man that doesn't need the lascannon but has enough anti-infantry to do without the heavy bolter. It's a filler weapon that fills the gap for the man who has everything. There is never a time in a game where I have thought ''damn! I wish i had more autocannons'' But at the same time, I've never thought bad of them. It's the grey man's of the weapon choice. It never really truely shines, but it never goes without making a contribution.

My advice? When you're happy that you have enough anti-tank and anti-infantry, you can't go wrong with the autocannon.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 RegulusBlack wrote:
so kinda back along original topic.

i got 40 points, currently in 4 Autocannons with my Plasma loaded Vets.

Do I........

1. keep AC's?
2. swap for 2 Las Cannons
3. swap for 4 PowerAxes
4. swap for 4 plasma pistols?

what say you Dakka?

I'd say 2, since they're vets.
If it was a PIS I'd say keep the ACs

So, one of the things that this kind of debate fails to recognize is, the composition of my army, and what needs do I have currently. Not to mention everyone tries to compare apples to oranges regarding cost.

You have an easy way to standardize at least the cost equivalent to wound, in my previous example 4 AC’s vs. 2 LC’s which is better?

Well it depends, currently I’m running @ 1850 pts:
15 Plasma guns
4 melta guns
9 twin linked Lascannons
3 Plasma Cannons
Lascannon Skyfire/Interceptor platform
2 Earthshaker Cannons
4 Autocannons

Plus an assortment of lasguns/pistols.

So here’s some math regarding the 40 points (4x AutoCannons vs. 2x LasCannons) attacking open Space Marines.

AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .33 (Armor Save)
1.45 Dead Marines.

LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds
1.1 Dead Marines.

In cover it gears much higher to AC’s (1.1 x .66 [cover save fail] =
.726 Dead Marines. (half of the Autocannon kills)

Now your thinking, well you silly git, I face terminators every game, all game, every time.
Alright lets do some numbers again.

Same amount of wounds the only thing that’s changing is armor saves.

AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .17 (Armor Save)
0.744 Dead Terminators

LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds x .66 (5++ invul)
0.726 Dead terminators

In summation REGARDING TROOPS, AC’s in my experience (although short in regards to the game) have a slight advantage over Lascannons. My math does not address a few outliers: (double strength IC’s, multi wound models) However anything not wearing power armor or better (which is approximately ½ of the current armies available) melts to AC’s . so take it for what it’s worth, others can argue about this that or the other but I think math is the one constant we all can agree on.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
. My math does not address a few outliers: (double strength IC’s, multi wound models) However anything not wearing power armor or better (which is approximately ½ of the current armies available) melts to AC’s .

Multiwound models and double-toughing IC's are huge deals.

And codex ratio does not matter. It is a meta thing. And I doubt you're in the magical meta where everyone isn't in PA. Usually, it's at least 3/5, if not 2/3 Power Armor armies in a meta.

i would concur that multi wound models are more problematic, however you are not going to be dropping most of those with 2 LasCannons, any easier than 4 AC's.

Most multiwound models have several more benefits going for them (T5, EW, Higher invul saves 4++, or even 3++), sure there are some armies that can field multi wound 2+ save bodies, but your still not going to be dropping those guys a ton based on 2 extra Lascannon shots any easier than 8 AC shots.

 Ailaros wrote:
In the case of a pred, though, you nearly TRIPLE the cost by giving it the lascannons. That said, I'd still do it. Roughly 180 points for what basically amounts to 3 lascannon hits per turn on an AV13 chassis doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

Tri-las Predators cost 140 points these days...