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I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one) and I noticed that I've been missing a trick with autocannons. They'll get 0.37 MEQ kills per salvo (at BS4), which means they'll only have to shoot twice to get a decent chance of getting their points back. They're also handy for stripping hull points off enemy transports, and give your vets something to do turn 1. They also can be taken on my vets, essentially a "free slot". Obviously I'd take another plasma gun if I could...but I can't.

Yes they'll be snap firing a lot - but as i said above, only 2 rounds will get their points back. My average 1500 list would have say 3 mechvets, 30 points for three autocannons just seems like a bargain.

It's not a bad idea with vets since they're so cheap. Plus, with the new FAQ on wound allocation having a 48" weapon ensures that you never waste any plasma/melta shots.

I have a soft spot for auto cannons, and their Tau equivilent. I know a lot of people argue that they are useless, being too strong and not enough shots for infantry, and being too light for taking out Land Raiders, but I've found most of my engagements are more middle ground than boyz/LR.

I have thought about putting them on vet squads since the addition of snapfire, specifically in a Harker squad.

BryllCream wrote:I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one) and I noticed that I've been missing a trick with autocannons. They'll get 0.37 MEQ kills per salvo (at BS4), which means they'll only have to shoot twice to get a decent chance of getting their points back.

I am with you on the mathhammering at work. I do that often.

I'm not a big fan of the phrase 'earn its points back'. None of the missions are about 'earning points', their all about objectives. If that autocannon snipes off a single guardian jetbike from 40" away netting you more objectives as the game ends -- was it worth 10 points? I would argue it was worth the game.

Peregrine wrote:with the new FAQ on wound allocation having a 48" weapon ensures that you never waste any plasma/melta shots.

Excellent point.
If you have an enemy squad sitting about 24" away, you don't want to lose kills by not being in range. The autocannon addresses this issue.

48" imperial guns did get better with the new FAQ. I love my 48" guns and will pay for them every time. Range lets me get in first strikes and makes it so enemies can't dance outside my range.

Martel732 wrote:
48" imperial guns did get better with the new FAQ. I love my 48" guns and will pay for them every time. Range lets me get in first strikes and makes it so enemies can't dance outside my range.

48" guns didn't get better, it's that only having short ranged guns got nerfed.

If you like Autocannons, you could always try:
2x CCS, autocannon and melta gun
3x PCS, autocannon and melta gun
6x PIS, autocannon and melta gun
15x heavy support teams, each with 3x autocannons.

1835 points, 24 scoring units, and 56 auto cannons. The 11 melta guns are just in case something AV14/13 gets too close.

Yeah, just about everyone (you and your opponent) is going to be getting a cover save, but with this list, it's all about volume of fire.
I'm "Only" short 36 Autocannons to run this list.

-Matt

Seems like you would want a lot of those ACs to be lascannons.

Boy, it sure is good Autocannons are better than Lasc-

Oh wait. Nevermind.

Autocannons work best on Chaos Space Marine Havocs!

Yep, I just got my FW set in the mail. One for a regular squad, the other 4 for havocs. Its almost like they planned it......

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Boy, it sure is good Autocannons are better than Lasc-

Oh wait. Nevermind.

No idea how this myth got started.

Vs MEQ

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, 0.27 kills.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 wounds, 0.27 kills with 5+ cover.

vs AV 11

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.5 HPs, 0.33 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 HPs, 0.27 penetrating

vs AV 12

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.16 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.22 penetrating.

Autocannon is equal to or superior to lascannons is almost all ways. Oh and they cost less too.

+! on damage table. Therefore pens are twice as effective. also deals with terminators. also better vs MEQ out of cover.

Las cannons are pretty much always better unless you are plasma/auto inf squads, then its acceptable. HWT should always be lascannon but are way overcosted so... just grab sabres or vendettas. Or if you need to kill a vehicle a medusa with bastion breacher shells.

zephoid wrote:
+! on damage table. Therefore pens are twice as effective. also deals with terminators. also better vs MEQ out of cover.

Las cannons are pretty much always better unless you are plasma/auto inf squads, then its acceptable. HWT should always be lascannon but are way overcosted so... just grab sabres or vendettas. Or if you need to kill a vehicle a medusa with bastion breacher shells.

At 1850, I get 56 autocannons or 41 lascannons.
+1 on the damage table is nice, but doesn't do much unless it's the first shot in. With the lascannon 5+ destroys. Great, right? Not exactly. All it means is 2/3rds of the time, you paid a lot of points to still just do a hull point (and stun/immobilize/destroy a weapon). So what happens when you shoot a lascannon at the tank again? Now you're firing a premium weapon at a reduced value target.

At least in a spam them list, the 15 extra heavy weapons (along with 5 more scoring squads, and 30 extra points), can lay down the smack as well as the lascannons could.

Seriously, who wouldn't want 112 S7 shots?

I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

 BryllCream wrote:
I was doing some mathhammer at work while bored (I suspect I'm not the only one)

Not by a long shot

Orky Autocannons aka Lootas' DeffGun is the best gun we have. D3 shots otherwise identical to AC's.

Nothing wrong with wounding on a 2+ when that's all that's left on the board. Also, with the surge in T5 Bike lists, they're still wounding on 2+.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

It's not that simple. I don't want to get that close to a vindicator ior demolisher. You go right ahead.

The whole point of meltavets is to drive up to things and melta them to death. You can't be squeemish about casualties as the guard.

Ditto stormtroopers.

 BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

occationally you might be over 6" away from a target and need a lascannon to take things out.

 BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

Yeah, Lascannons aren't great for anti-tank duty. Not when there are better weapons out there to do it with. Lascannons simply aren't good enough. Considering you need a 5+ to even glance with a Lascannon, Meltaguns or even meltabombs are so much more effective, despite having 1/4 the range.

 BryllCream wrote:
The whole point of meltavets is to drive up to things and melta them to death. You can't be squeemish about casualties as the guard.

Ditto stormtroopers.

This.

The Demolisher Cannon disappears when a Stormtrooper Squad parachutes in and meltas it into a pile of hot wreckage.

 Exergy wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still have some lascannons for AV 13 and AV 14 and 2+ armor.

If you're using lascannons against AV13/AV14, you're throwing points away. Keep meltas for that level, unless you're in a pinch.

occationally you might be over 6" away from a target and need a lascannon to take things out.

Anything over 6" away from the guard isn't a threat

The problem with autocannon spam: The min you run into terminators you have nothing. Las cannons not only kill terminators, they also deal with terminator ICs who love absorbing all those autocannon wounds. Also, guard works via alpha strike. Blowing up vehicles 1st turn is more important than stripping HP over the course of the game. You need to remove opponent's threats fast, autocannons dont reliably do that. They are decent vs every target, good vs none. Guard really doesnt need a lot of that. Let blob squads deal with inf, you need to dedicate HWT to killing tanks/deathstars.

For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I'm talking in general. Things sometimes go wrong trying to get in melta range. Lascannons can start firing from turn 1. Also, there are armies other than IG that may not have sacrificial melta guys.

 BryllCream wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Boy, it sure is good Autocannons are better than Lasc-

Oh wait. Nevermind.

No idea how this myth got started.

Vs MEQ

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, 0.27 kills.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 wounds, 0.27 kills with 5+ cover.

vs AV 11

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.5 HPs, 0.33 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.41 HPs, 0.27 penetrating

vs AV 12

Autocannon - 1 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.16 penetrating.
Lascannon - 0.5 hit, 0.3 HP, 0.22 penetrating.

Autocannon is equal to or superior to lascannons is almost all ways. Oh and they cost less too.

Uh. Even your math only shows the Autocannon only beating out the LC against AV11. Not to mention, your math neglects to show chance of explosion. (Hint. The Lascannon has 2x the chance to blow a vehicle up.) Factor in AP2, the ability to PEN AV13/14,a nd causing ID to t4 and it becomes clear.

They're remarkably superior. No myth.

Autocannon is long range torrent weapon. It's very good at that job. Very, very good. But against AV 13/14 and MCs with 3+ armor, teqs, etc they can be very pedestrian. It's best to have variety, so you can deal with many different types of threats.

zephoid wrote:
For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I feel like the Manticore is worthy of a mention too.

 alarmingrick wrote:

zephoid wrote:
For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I feel like the Manticore is worthy of a mention too.

No one takes BB Medusae, or Vanquishers.

And Manticores really should be shooting at hordes.

Melta and Lascannon are the good, TAC anti-AV13+. It's just fact.

Melta is obviously more devastating, but the range can be murder. Literally. That being said, my lists usually have more melta than lascannons. The lascannons are really there for speciality cases and popping transports at long range to strand troops. Does it always work? Of course not. Do I pay for lascannons of devastators? No. But there are economical ways to field lascannons. The auto/las pred is a very good platform because the 48" guns let it keep its AV 13 front towards the enemy at all times, barring deep strikes and whatnot.

I run DKOK. I dont have melta-vets or stormtroopers. I do get medusa emplacements which are now 11-Wound T7 artillery now however. Also, my vanquishers get the Coax gun which TL the main weapon if it hits once, making vanquishers very good.


Melta vets are largely overrated IMO. Running eldar enough i know how unreliable melta is even when you can precision place it from disembarking from skimmers. 5 man FD squads do not guarantee dead vehicles, esp on higher armor values. Dropping them from vendettas is very risky because if you are outside of 6 you dont do much of anything. Chimeras get stunned/shaken and the passengers cant fire accurately, making that transport method less reliable than it was last edition. Vs ven dreds, battlewagons, or some LR players that works well, but vs preds, LRBs or even a good vindicator player they can keep outside of melta unless you come to them which bares a lot of problems. Also, with terminators becoming more and more prevalent, plasma is replacing a lot of melta in vets to help put wounds on them. 3 meltas doesnt even kill a TH/SS terminator reliably.

Melta stormies you are spending 100 points on 2 melta guns at BS4. You are more accurately inside 6, but not guaranteed. Between possible scatter, missing, failed pens, poor damage results, and possible cover, you are chancing a LOT of dice rolls there.

BB medusa are now more accurate thanks to the blast changes this edition. 48" S10 AP1 2d6 pen isnt chancing it like melta. It if hits, it will damage something important. Also, with ADL you have can have reliable cover at pretty long range. You also get more than 1 volly from this in most situations whereas vets you rarely get a 2nd. With DKOK its even better as the emplacement survives forever from shooting and the regular shell from it is 24-120" barrage rather than the C:IG's 36" direct fire (i generally run 1 of each emplacement).