Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If you're spamming heavy weapons you'll need both kinds to keep from getting screwed. That autocannon list would be screwed vs a landraider list or a necron with the barges and whatnot. Both weapons fill different roles after all.

At the very least, you'd want lascannons for sniping bulletsoak ic's at the front of a squad and to deal with MC's. That way once the lascannons have popped the guy that's designed to eat up shots, the autocannons could be a little more effective.

And of course the lascannon is twice as good at killing tanks since it's twice as much. I'd still rather have them in mostuations over autocannons though.

Cost of weapon means little since HWT cost so much base. The cost is ~20% more for lascannons over autocannons

Platoons deal with inf, thats what they are there for. FRFSRF is amazing vs any type of non-vehicle. However they are 24". Therefore, put autocannons in them to help with inf and give them a longer range to deal with vehicles before their usefulness becomes applicable. Also compliments most other types of weapons available to PIS (grenade, plasma, even flamers to an extent).

CCS and PCS is up to you. Personally i dont like them in either because it draws fire but a lot of people like CCS with lascannons.

zephoid wrote:
Cost of weapon means little since HWT cost so much base. The cost is ~20% more for lascannons over autocannons

Platoons deal with inf, thats what they are there for. FRFSRF is amazing vs any type of non-vehicle. However they are 24". Therefore, put autocannons in them to help with inf and give them a longer range to deal with vehicles before their usefulness becomes applicable. Also compliments most other types of weapons available to PIS (grenade, plasma, even flamers to an extent).

CCS and PCS is up to you. Personally i dont like them in either because it draws fire but a lot of people like CCS with lascannons.

All of this logic is...disagreeable.

Platoons deal with inf, thats what they are there for. FRFSRF is amazing vs any type of non-vehicle.

No. No it's not. Lasguns are terrible.

Therefore, put autocannons in them to help with inf and give them a longer range to deal with vehicles before their usefulness becomes applicable.

Give them a mediocre anti-vehicle weapon for 48"-24", and then kill the rest with lasguns?

Also compliments most other types of weapons available to PIS (grenade, plasma, even flamers to an extent).

So Autocannons compliment two bad special weapons, and Plasma. Know what synergizes better with Plasma? AP2 Strength 9.

Cheers,
-CaptainGrey

3 platoons firing at 24" with FRFSRF is equal to 27 bolters at the same range. Throw in PE from SW or doom from eldar and they become pretty darn amazing (22.5 wounds on T4 at 12). Your view is terrible is based on comparing them to other weapons on higher point cost models and removing the synergy guard can generate both internally and with their allies of convenience.


lascannons in PIS is a waste. Lascannons are not effective MEQ killers, especially when cover of any kind factors in (often craters w guard) or the targets have inv saves. Plasma is twice as effective for less points. Autocannons are effective vs most targets a PIS should be concentrating on. using PIS on vehicles when within 24" is only if the vehicle is a significant more threat than being assaulted, which is almost never between G2G and GBITF, aegis, and the effectiveness of guard in melee.

3x lascannons in HWT can get Bring it Down which significantly increases their effectiveness vs vehicles. PIS should often be getting FRFSRF or FOMC if the plasmas can double tap

I don't know the specifics of how the IG are organized. Sounds like they want the lascannons in HWT. It's kinda like marines want them on predators, not devastators squads.

I have to agree. I don't shoot lascannons at meqs until there's nothing left for them, which is usually good. (But sometimes bad)

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

zephoid wrote:
For killing AV13+, dont even bother with las cannons or melta vets IMO. Medusa with BB shells or Vanquisher with Hv stubber coax, las cannon, MMs both blow armor apart in a single round at much better range.

I feel like the Manticore is worthy of a mention too.

And Manticores really should be shooting at hordes.

1-3 Str 10 pie plates should just shoot at hordes, really?
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. With the
center hole of the blast marker not having to hit for
full effect helps it even more. But hey, whatever trips
your trigger.

Sounds like the manticore has a variety of uses. What's the range on it?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Uh. Even your math only shows the Autocannon only beating out the LC against AV11.

...and MEQ in cover 5+ cover. In ruins, autocannons come out on top. So we'll call that a draw. So actually I can say with factual accuracy that Autocannons are equal to lascannons vs MEQ and superior vs AV 10/11 and mobs.

Not to mention, your math neglects to show chance of explosion. (Hint. The Lascannon has 2x the chance to blow a vehicle up.) Factor in AP2, the ability to PEN AV13/14,a nd causing ID to t4 and it becomes clear.

BS lascannon vs AV 11 has a 0.5*0.6*0.3 chance to pop it outright. That's 9%. That's the only thing the lascannon has over AC 11, other than vs non-SS termies.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

They're remarkably superior. No myth.

Myth, busted!

 BryllCream wrote:

They're remarkably superior. No myth.

Myth, busted!

just to quickly pop a question in here. How do the Autocannons fair when you throw in an opponent with flyers?
i realize a lascannon once it pens is more likely to explode it, but isnt the AC's advantage 2x chance to hit with weight of shots?
happy to have this negatively shut down

This seems like a senseless argument. They are best used in conjunction with each other. They are both superior to the ML and the HB, imo.

ausYenLoWang wrote:
just to quickly pop a question in here. How do the Autocannons fair when you throw in an opponent with flyers?
i realize a lascannon once it pens is more likely to explode it, but isnt the AC's advantage 2x chance to hit with weight of shots?
happy to have this negatively shut down

The comparison would be the same as shooting at regular targets of the same AV. Both have the same chance to pen as before, same chance to glance as before, and same chance to explode as before.

Only difference, is everything gets multiplied by 1/6.

Against higher AVs and 2+ armor, I'm sure that you will find that the ACs efficacy wanes. So what? It's still a great weapon.

Martel732 wrote:
Against higher AVs and 2+ armor, I'm sure that you will find that the ACs efficacy wanes. So what? It's still a great weapon.

No one is arguing whether its good or not. It's a fine weapon.

The discussion is whether or not weapon X is better.

Here is my philosophy as a BA player. My heavy weapons are there to kill things that my assault marines can not bash in the head or boltguns can't torrent. So I favor MMs and LCs over all other heavies. Hordes are a secondary consideration, because I can form up ranks and charge for the Emprah with BA fury! A LR full of chaos terminators, on the other hand, has the same assault range as my jump troops, so the assault transport has to go down, and autocannons just can't make that happen. I do run both in my lists, however, because my list is heavy on firepower.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

ausYenLoWang wrote:
just to quickly pop a question in here. How do the Autocannons fair when you throw in an opponent with flyers?
i realize a lascannon once it pens is more likely to explode it, but isnt the AC's advantage 2x chance to hit with weight of shots?
happy to have this negatively shut down

The comparison would be the same as shooting at regular targets of the same AV. Both have the same chance to pen as before, same chance to glance as before, and same chance to explode as before.

Only difference, is everything gets multiplied by 1/6.

ok so the autocannon would be a more efficent weapon due to the AV10-12 on flyers?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

You've shown that AC's are better against "mobs" and weak transports.

/golfclap

Color me unimpressed. It has a much narrower threat-range, and even a narrower range at which it excels. Sounds like a waste of 10 points and a Heavy Weapon slot, unless you're facing green tide backed by trukks.

And equal against MEQ. Lascannons cost 50% more than autocannons for no increase in damage output vs MEQs, AV10 and AV11.

The mathhammer in this thread is failing so badly. Instead of looking at very large sample averages, which tell you absolutely nothing about individual trials, it is much more helpful to look at the probabilities of achieving a certain event I'll only post results for 1 to 3 HWTs and only for land based vehicles. A similar analysis can be done for infantry/mc/fliers

So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle?

AC vs.....p(3HP stripped).....p(explodes!).........p(total).......................... LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!) ........p(total)
AV10.......0..............................0.081597222.......0.081597222................AV10.......0.....................................0.138888889........0.138888889
AV11.......0..............................0.054783951.......0.054783951................AV11.......0.....................................0.111111111........0.111111111
AV12.......0..............................0.027584877.......0.027584877................AV12.......0.....................................0.083333333........0.083333333
AV13.......0..............................0.............................0......................................AV13.......0.....................................0.055555556........0.055555556
AV14.......0..............................0.............................0......................................AV14.......0.....................................0.027777778........0.027777778


What is the probability that two heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)................... LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.077537254............... 0.156536338........0.234073592........AV10.......0.....................................0.258487654........0.258487654
AV11.......0.03657979..................0.10656662..........0.14314641..........AV11.......0.....................................0.209876543........0.209876543
AV12.......0.012629561................0.054408828.......0.067038389........AV12.......0.....................................0.159722222........0.159722222
AV13.......0.002170139................0.............................0.002170139........AV13.......0.....................................0.108024691........0.108024691
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................A.V14......0.....................................0.054783951........0.054783951

What is the probability that three heavy weapons teams will destroy a 3 HP vehicle?

AC vs......p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!)..........p(total).................. LAS vs....p(3HP stripped)...........p(explodes!).........p(total)
AV10.......0.240412153................0.22536063..........0.411593349...... AV10.......0.047089335................0.36147548..........0.391543175
AV11.......0.128044317................0.15551243..........0.263644264.......AV11.......0.028527949................0.297668038.......0.317704129
AV12.......0.049672929................0.080492843.......0.126167457....... AV12.......0.015625.......................0.22974537..........0.241780599
AV13.......0.009545262................0.............................0.009545262........AV13.......0.00735168................ 0.157578875........0.163772086
AV14.......0......................................0.............................0..............................AV14.......0.002679184................0.081039952.......0.083502015

I won't analyze and interpret the results for you, but if you can read, and have any sort of analytical skill at all, its quite easy to do.

The math is different for each kind of AV I think.

Let's see.........

AV 10 flyer:

Each autocannon shot strips .11 HP and has a .014 chance of exploding the flyer. So both shots strip .22 HP and have a .028 chance of exploding it.

The lascannon strips .17 HP and has a .046 chance of blowing up the flier.

AV 11 flyer:

Autocannon: each shot strips .08 HP and has a .009 chance of exploding it. So both shots strip .16 HP and a .018 chance of exploding it.

Lascannon: it strips 0.14 HP and has a .037 chance of exploding it.

AV 12 flyer:

Autocannon: each shot strips .06 HP and has a .005 chance to explode, so .12 HP and .01 chance from both shots.

Lascannon: strips 0.11 HP and a .028 chance to explode it.

Frankly, all of these odds are terrible. This gets better with twinlinked, though. Roughly doubled.

 Barksdale wrote:
The mathhammer in this thread is failing so badly. Instead of looking at very large sample averages, which tell you absolutely nothing about individual trials, it is much more helpful to look at the probabilities of achieving a certain event I'll only post results for 1 to 3 HWTs and only for land based vehicles. A similar analysis can be done for infantry/mc/fliers
So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle?

The math may be correct, but the approach is flawed.
In a typical guard list is going to have 15-20 heavy weapons.
Looking at an approach of must do 3 hull points is flawed. You can easily have the first few heavy weapons fail to pop and strip a hull point or two.
What I want is a table that breaks down odds of 1 hull point, 2 hull points, and 3 hull points, with destroyed a fourth column (because not all vehicles have 3 hull points).

That would give me a better idea of how to maximize my fire in an army with a variety of heavy weapons.

-Matt

This again?

Straight comparisons between the Las and AC only work so well..you will always end up with is "the AC is better at some things and worse than others than the Las."

I think you have to ask what it is you want the Las to do and then see if there are better options to achieve that goal...same thing for the AC.

Andrew

That's what I tried to say, but someone wanted numbers.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
The mathhammer in this thread is failing so badly. Instead of looking at very large sample averages, which tell you absolutely nothing about individual trials, it is much more helpful to look at the probabilities of achieving a certain event I'll only post results for 1 to 3 HWTs and only for land based vehicles. A similar analysis can be done for infantry/mc/fliers
So for example, what is the probability a HWT destroying a 3HP vehicle?

The math may be correct, but the approach is flawed.
In a typical guard list is going to have 15-20 heavy weapons.
Looking at an approach of must do 3 hull points is flawed. You can easily have the first few heavy weapons fail to pop and strip a hull point or two.
What I want is a table that breaks down odds of 1 hull point, 2 hull points, and 3 hull points, with destroyed a fourth column (because not all vehicles have 3 hull points).

That would give me a better idea of how to maximize my fire in an army with a variety of heavy weapons.

-Matt

Go for it mate. That table will tell you the same thing, or whatever ridiculous table you want to come up with. Las is better in almost every situation.

My original post was actually about bringing in 3 or 4 Autocannons to augment mech guard. Someone decided to turn it into spam AC or spam lascannon

 BryllCream wrote:
My original post was actually about bringing in 3 or 4 Autocannons to augment mech guard. Someone decided to turn it into spam AC or spam lascannon

Well then the question becomes:

What are the weaknesses of your list.

Are you running parking lot, or Leafblower

What Vets are the HW's going with?

 Barksdale wrote:


Go for it mate. That table will tell you the same thing, or whatever ridiculous table you want to come up with. Las is better in almost every situation.

The Las is far weaker versus hoards and AR 10 and 11 and close to identical versus AV 12. The AC does have certain advantages versus the Las. Amongst them is not killing AV 13 and 14, and terminators.

Basically, the guy has come up with numbers and you have arbitrarily decided to ignore them because they don't support your argument. So.... what then is the crux of your position? That Las cannons are better because you say so. Wow. Well file that under solved.

Saying "the las is better" without numbers or context is just ignorant. Why put las in an IS when you have them on vendettas? Why consider IS as a good place for a Las when you have CCS and Vet squds with BS4? If the point of your Las is anti-vehicle then putting them in a non-bs4 unit is kinda nuts. Heck, wouldn't you rather have vets with meltas?

If you actually think about it, you'll find that a balanced, non spam, approach to a guard army works best. You need las..but you also need horde killers as well. Las are great but are overpriced and over powered when dealing with DE raider spam. AC are great but kinda useless versus termie heavy armies.

ender502

I like a mix, but I tend to favour autocannons more. More shots is often better than less. Its very discouraging to miss with your lascannon.

And against TEQ, who also have unvulnerable saves (the storm shield variety have a 3++), then the effectiveness of a lascannon over autocannon is not as much.

Consider against Storm Shield termis. Both wound on a 2+, but the lascannon has double the chance for a storm shield termi to miss a save as compared to autocannon. However, I get two shots with autocannon compared to lascannon. So, they are exactly the same against storm shield termis. And since most people will usually bring the storm shield termi variety, I would say the two are about even against TEQ.

But the autocannon is much better against fliers because of 2 shots vs the lascannon's 1 shot.

Its only against high AV targets like landraiders or AV 13 targets where lascannon is better, but here, even the lascannon is not exactly that efficient. Best way against such targets is to hit them on their back armor, or hit them with a melta close range.

Can we get a math hammer list that gives stats on the following

Lascannon, Autocannon, Melta gun, Plasma gun, Lasgun, Storm Eagle Rockits & Medusa Seige Cannon (Not the one with Bastion Breacher Shells)

At ranges of 6", 12", 24", 36" & 48"

Verses
A squad of 10 MEQ
A Squad of 5 reg TEQ
A Squad of 5 TH/SS TEQ
A Squad of 31 GEQ (includes a Commisar)
A Squad of 30 Orkboys
A Tank with AV10 & 3HP
A Tank with AV11 & 3HP
A Tank with AV12 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 4HP
A Tank with AV14 & 3HP
A Tank with AV14 & 4HP
A Flyer with AV10
A Flyer with AV11
A Flyer with AV12
A Dread Knight
A Flying Hive Tyrant with Iron Arm
A Tervigon with Iron Arm
A Squad if 6 Nob Bikers with FNP
A Squad of 5 Pally's and Dragio with FNP

Once you have the list made up don't forget to include the effects of a 5+, 4+, 3+ & 2+ Cover saves and then how many points it would cost you to completly take out a unit of this type. This will give you the units ecconmy level and we will finally be able to solve this riddle.

I'm very interested to see the findings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the sake of Augument lets say the Ordnance weapons hit the armour 1/3 of the time and the average amount of models non-vehicle models hit is 4. Unless someone has a better idea

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I like a mix, but I tend to favour autocannons more. More shots is often better than less. Its very discouraging to miss with your lascannon.

And against TEQ, who also have unvulnerable saves (the storm shield variety have a 3++), then the effectiveness of a lascannon over autocannon is not as much.

16% higher. And causes instant death.

Consider against Storm Shield termis. Both wound on a 2+, but the lascannon has double the chance for a storm shield termi to miss a save as compared to autocannon. However, I get two shots with autocannon compared to lascannon. So, they are exactly the same against storm shield termis. And since most people will usually bring the storm shield termi variety, I would say the two are about even against TEQ.

You would say they are about even against TEQ, after assuming all TEQ are TH/SS Termies, and then not running further math.

But the autocannon is much better against fliers because of 2 shots vs the lascannon's 1 shot.

Except the AC only has a (after hitting) 16% chance to pen AV12 flyers, vs. the LC's 50%

Its only against high AV targets like landraiders or AV 13 targets where lascannon is better, but here, even the lascannon is not exactly that efficient.

Despite being moreso than the Autocannon

Best way against such targets is to hit them on their back armor, or hit them with a melta close range.

Both of which aren't really relevant

Interesting points you've got there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sinji wrote:
Can we get a math hammer list that gives stats on the following

Lascannon, Autocannon, Melta gun, Plasma gun, Lasgun, Storm Eagle Rockits & Medusa Seige Cannon (Not the one with Bastion Breacher Shells)

At ranges of 6", 12", 24", 36" & 48"

Verses
A squad of 10 MEQ
A Squad of 5 reg TEQ
A Squad of 5 TH/SS TEQ
A Squad of 31 GEQ (includes a Commisar)
A Squad of 30 Orkboys
A Tank with AV10 & 3HP
A Tank with AV11 & 3HP
A Tank with AV12 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 3HP
A Tank with AV13 & 4HP
A Tank with AV14 & 3HP
A Tank with AV14 & 4HP
A Flyer with AV10
A Flyer with AV11
A Flyer with AV12
A Dread Knight
A Flying Hive Tyrant with Iron Arm
A Tervigon with Iron Arm
A Squad if 6 Nob Bikers with FNP
A Squad of 5 Pally's and Dragio with FNP

Once you have the list made up don't forget to include the effects of a 5+, 4+, 3+ & 2+ Cover saves and then how many points it would cost you to completly take out a unit of this type. This will give you the units ecconmy level and we will finally be able to solve this riddle.

I'm very interested to see the findings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the sake of Augument lets say the Ordnance weapons hit the armour 1/3 of the time and the average amount of models non-vehicle models hit is 4. Unless someone has a better idea

Er...why don't you do it?

The math is incredibly simple.

< Taken by the void dragon. >