Hey guys! I could use a bit of help with a debate I am having with my friends. the debate right now is Space Marine vs Jedi(with me saying a space marine could beat a jedi) my points so far are,
-Space marine armour is made of ceramite, which is highly resistant to energy based weapons(like lightsabers)
-A space marine has to undergo decades of training in all different styles of combat before he even becomes a space marine
-a lightsaber could not stop a bolt gun.
-mandalorians are basically elite(though still normal) humans who already give the jedi enough trouble[and would make prime candidates for the Space Marines)
the other side of the argument is
-the force would allow the jedi to outmanouver a space marine
-the force is everywhere and a jedi can draw on it and tap an endless supply of power to use it.
-basically... the force.

I figured i'd get alot of help here from people who know the 40k universe and know whats canon.
I appreciate any help that you all can give me! I'm slowly getting into warhammer 40k and its my hope i can make it a new hobby!

Comparing two entirely differant settings is always a waste of your time.

Veldrain wrote:
Comparing two entirely differant settings is always a waste of your time.

Agreed, although if you really feel the need to do it then a quick Google search will provide pages and pages of fanboys from either side getting in increasingly heated arguments over it.

It'd be a good fight but the Space Marine would probably win unless the Jedi was a Master.

Even then the Space Marine would probably win if it was a Librarian.

The problem that's always faced with these type of debates is whose rules do you use? The rules of the SW universe or the rules of the 40k universe?

I remember having a debate about who'd win out of Goku from Dragonball Z and Yoda.... it got nowhere.

Tiberius Atellus wrote:
Hey guys! I could use a bit of help with a debate I am having with my friends. the debate right now is Space Marine vs Jedi(with me saying a space marine could beat a jedi) my points so far are,
-Space marine armour is made of ceramite, which is highly resistant to energy based weapons(like lightsabers)
-A space marine has to undergo decades of training in all different styles of combat before he even becomes a space marine
-a lightsaber could not stop a bolt gun.
-mandalorians are basically elite(though still normal) humans who already give the jedi enough trouble[and would make prime candidates for the Space Marines)
the other side of the argument is
-the force would allow the jedi to outmanouver a space marine
-the force is everywhere and a jedi can draw on it and tap an endless supply of power to use it.
-basically... the force.

I figured i'd get alot of help here from people who know the 40k universe and know whats canon.
I appreciate any help that you all can give me! I'm slowly getting into warhammer 40k and its my hope i can make it a new hobby!

- No its not that powerful. Its like every piece of armor except there is more of it and its stronger. A lightsaber will cut through it like a Plasma Weapon cuts through it.
- As a scout yes he has seen combat. Has he seen combat before being a scout? no. By the time he is a Space Marine, he has seen more combat than an average guardsman
- It kind of can. Its not going to deflect the bolt but the heat of it will actually destroy the shell.
- Yes Mandalorians would make perfect Space Marine candidates
- A Jedi can use the force to help speed their reaction times and movement ability so it is possible for a Space Marine to outmanouver a Space Marine DEPENDING on the SM's source material we are using
- The Force is endless, the mental power of a Jedi is not, he will eventually tire out if he is using it straight. However a quick breather will allow him to recover. Think of the force like oxygen, a Jedi isnt going to run out of oxygen but he may run out of breath and he will need time to catch a breather


I hope that helps

So far we were just using an average jedi versus an average space marine. To be completely honest I dont think the idea of what universe this was taking place in ever came up @.@


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Galdos, yes! that does help very much. I really do like the analogy of the force/oxygen thank you!

Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force.

In other words, they're incompatible and there's no point on comparing them anyways.

it all depends on who is the main character of the story.


40k has very inconsistent fluff, where some space marines are unstoppable juggernauts scything down hundreds of "regular" soldiers and taking on the biggest baddies that the universe has to offer.
Some of the space marine characters are depicted as facing down Avatars of Khaine, Greater Daemons, and giant Tyranid monsters.

When the space marines are not the main characters or are even the bad guys, they are still formidable opponents, but will still die to some focus fire from some guardsmen.

It just so happens that even Jedi Masters tend to die from focused fire, lol.

Average Jedi and Space Marine? IMO the Marine would get out a salvo of bolter fire first, which the saber can't effectively deflect.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Average Jedi and Space Marine? IMO the Marine would get out a salvo of bolter fire first, which the saber can't effectively deflect.

Then again, if the Jedi picks up on the intent to attack he might be able to attack first. It all depends on who the heroes of the story are, who is attacking and what level of preparations they've been able to attempt. Mandalorian warriors have taken down Jedi, the Clone Troopers did - but they usually have surprise and a lot of preparations. Space Marines with their head-on tactics might surprise Jedi too, but if they don't they don't really have much of a Plan B.

The settings and premises of the two forces are pretty different too. Jedi are usually alone or with a trainee, infiltrating, negotiating, investigating and so on. I'd actually compare Jedi Knights/Masters to a 40K Inquisitor in what sort of things they usually do. They are powerful individuals but they don't usually go frontal assault on armies alone. Space Marines are elite infantry operating in groups of at least five men. They're not sent out to take down one man, no matter how dangerous. They break enemy headquarters, spearhead planetary assaults and board space ships. Ofc, if a Jedi was the enemy CO a marine force might drop pod in to try taking him out - but then the Jedi would have bodyguards and support nearby.

edit: and ofc the Force - even the average Jedi could be compared to some minor 40K psyker. Powers range from utilities to powerful defenses and offenses depending on his particular gifts. The famous Jedi Mind Trick would sure come in handy vs a marine. "I'm not the target you're looking for, in fact I'm just a shrubbery."

The correct answer is decided by the answer to the question: "What kind of forum are you posting the question on?"

If the answer is "40K", then your answer is "Space Marine wins."

If the answer is "Star Wars", then your answer is "Jedi wins."

Otherwise, there is no correct answer to this question, as these are entirely fictional, and incompatible, settings.

That's entirely a cop-out answer IMHO, you can look at the capabilities of the two and make a comparison.

In melee combat, the average Jedi would probably win, due mostly to the lightsaber, which should be capable of puncturing powered armour (But IMO not easily).

But if the fight starts at a distance, the Space Marine firing on full-auto would overwhelm the Jedi.

I guess that is what it mostly comes down to, circumstances, if the fight starts in melee, probably Jedi. If the fight starts at range with the Marine able to fire his bolter, Marine.

Someone just needs to post the pic of a power sword vs a lightsaber.

So youre basically compairing a space marine captain/veteran to an IG psycher with a power weapon..... IMHO marine will win every time.

You know, because I didnt answer before, Im going to put my money on the Jedi actually. I wont go into detail though, I wont be sticking around in this topic. Just stating my opinion

Well, I imagine the fight would look like this.



Are we talking about a standard marine, or any marine? Because a jedi can throw people, but a space marine librarian can shoot lighting out of his eyes.

.... pretty sure the Jedi could use the force to send the bolt gun's bullet's back at the space marine.

willhman wrote:
.... pretty sure the Jedi could use the force to send the bolt gun's bullet's back at the space marine.

Depends; going by the movies, no, bullets have way too much momentum. Now, if stuff like the force unleashed counts, then yes. If Darth Vader can pull down a star destroyer, then he can moves bullets.

The average Jedi isn't nearly that capable.

Vader is one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history.

If we're using guys like him, it is only fair to use their equivelants, like Mephiston or Draigo, lol.

Standard marines cannot use power sword so it would have to be a vet at the least.

 RIGLER705 wrote:
Standard marines cannot use power sword so it would have to be a vet at the least.

Not having regular access to a weapon and being unable to use it are two very different things.

Vegeta would own them both

The average jedi would hand the average space marine his ass 9/10 times, regardless of what distance they start at or what the circumstances are.

I have no idea where the notion that a Jedi can't reliably "deflect" a bolt round comes from. You don't need to deflect the shot when the bolt round would literally melt the very instant it hit the lightsaber blade.

Being able to fire on full-auto is irrelevant when shooting at at target that can near-instantly travel dozens of meters, as seen at ten seconds in here. A Jedi would be up in an Astartes face before he could blink.

That aside, a Space Marine has absolutely zero defense against the force unless he is a psyker. There's nothing stopping a Jedi from casually lifting a Marine into the air, then throwing his lightsaber at him, or just walking up to him and slicing him in half.

Threads like this ruin my suspension of disbelief.


I want to believe that liking this hobby isn't that nerdy. :(

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Vegeta would own them both

Dammit, you beat me to it

I always enjoy these kind of debates although they are a bit pointless/undecidable.

My favourite one is still Goku vs Monkey D. Luffy.

Also I'd put my money on the Marine, the only exception being if it were a jedi master, however in a straight up standard jedi vs standard space marine fight the marine would win 9/10 times I'd think.

 Rysaer wrote:

My favourite one is still Goku vs Monkey D. Luffy.

Luffy is cool and everything but Goku's in a different league ...

Vader would rape the whole 40k universe, then he would left Tzeench drooling in p duel....

But it would be interesting to see battle barge vs star destroyer duel....

I don't really mind who wins - the jedi or the marines. Because Eldrad caused the conflict to distract them anyway.

To those saying bolter shells would melt against a lightsaber - don't forget each bolter shell is essentially a self propelled missile.
Heat would probably make them explode. Force powers would flick them away, but I don't fancy the idea of deflecting melting explosives.

And Vader is also Alpharius.

Veldrain wrote:Comparing two entirely differant settings is always a waste of your time.

^ This. Both Jedi as well as Space Marines are the major protagonists of their respective setting. Depending on who writes the story, they can be incredibly Mary-Sue. The whole idea of a debate concerning a direct comparison reminds me of the "Marvel Silver Surfer vs Kirby Silver Surfer" scene from Crimson Tide.

But I will add this:

Tiberius Atellus wrote:-Space marine armour is made of ceramite, which is highly resistant to energy based weapons(like lightsabers)

Space Marine armour cannot even provide full protection against Imperial Guard lasguns (going by GW Codex fluff and the rules in the Inquisitor RPG), let alone Star Wars lightsabers - which are actually plasma weapons if you read their description.

 DarthMarko wrote:

But it would be interesting to see battle barge vs star destroyer duel....

Just saying 40K's scale is really wacky so it's a bit harsh to throw up that comparison

As the image shows a Star Destroyer is roughly the same size as a Cobra class Frigate, nad Battle Barges are closer to the capital class IN ship at the top.

I'm not so sure GW actually ever released sizes for Imperial warships, and unsurprisingly all the non-studio material promotes different numbers - leading to some hilarious "scale charts" in the fandom. Because bigger is obviously better. It's why Space Marines grow in body height from book to book.



That aside, size only makes something a better target. "Star Destroyers" have that name for a reason. In the end it is weapons, shield power, armour, structural integrity and manoeuverability that are truly essential in combat, and there is absolutely no way you can accurately predict how those systems react to their counterparts from a different setting.

1. SW would get crushed on a marco level vs 40k.

2. Jedi can kill the average marine if they can hone in on him. If not, an average SM will likely shrug off the first blow and if the fight continues after that, will probably die.

3. A ST from both universes are meant to be equals.

4. 40k is a derivative of SW, Dune, and fantasy elements that have been given steroids - to compare the two is like trying to compare an Olympic gold medalist in rowing to his / her gene therapy child who's been raised by a cage fighter to perform in Cirque du Soleil.

40k's logic doesn't even make all that much sense in the universe either.

BlaxicanX wrote:
The average jedi would hand the average space marine his ass 9/10 times, regardless of what distance they start at or what the circumstances are.

I have no idea where the notion that a Jedi can't reliably "deflect" a bolt round comes from. You don't need to deflect the shot when the bolt round would literally melt the very instant it hit the lightsaber blade.

Being able to fire on full-auto is irrelevant when shooting at at target that can near-instantly travel dozens of meters, as seen at ten seconds in here. A Jedi would be up in an Astartes face before he could blink.

That aside, a Space Marine has absolutely zero defense against the force unless he is a psyker. There's nothing stopping a Jedi from casually lifting a Marine into the air, then throwing his lightsaber at him, or just walking up to him and slicing him in half.

It wouldn't melt. It would explode.

When Argel Tal deflected three bolt rounds, he was sent on his ass from the bolts exploding. The Jedi would be sprawled on his ass and proceed to be blown in half.

Congratulations, you have proven that Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, two very powerful, skilled Jedi, can move many meters in a few seconds. Do I really have to re-post the feats of Marine reaction-time and speed feats from named characters? You don't want to make this a feat war, and we both know this Blax.

I mean, look at Coleman Trebor, a Jedi Master and Council member. Who also happened to be easily killed by Jango Fett unloading his blaster pistol on him. Fully automatic fire on the average Jedi from a bolter means a dead Jedi.

Oh, and can you show me the average Jedi lifting something as heavy as a Marine in power armour?


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 DarthMarko wrote:
Vader would rape the whole 40k universe, then he would left Tzeench drooling in p duel....

But it would be interesting to see battle barge vs star destroyer duel....

Vader is a punk bitch though.

BFG gives solid sizes on ships I believe.
And Space Marines are officially, on average between seven and seven and a half feet tall in power armour. (So probably 6-7 out of - they gain minimal height, mostly bulk)

1-on-1, bog standard Ultramarines Tactical Marine, vs sog Standard Jedi Knight of the Old Republic, my money is on the Jedi every time.

The Knights reflexes would be faster, he would be able to dodge, repel or destroy Bolter shells (due to the slower nature of them, and their very design of a time-delayed fuse for detonation, it would likely be vaporised before it would go off.), the Lightsaber is effectively a plasma or melta band saw (In game terms, I'd probably stat it as Range User, Str6, AP1/2, Melee, Melta, albeit as the Jedi's only weapon), and they're specifically trained to be keepers of the peace and able to best damn near anyone 1vs1 or even 1 vs 5, and were generally used as high ranking generals and commanders in wartime, so SHOULD be able to kick the ass of a grunt.

Actually - lets look at it that way on the Tabletop.
A Jedi Knight would likely be along the lines of:


A Space Marine Captain vs a Jedi Knight - probably even money on either of them, anything bigger and badder - the Jedi Knight is probably on the back foot.
Jedi Knight, even master vs massed infantry.. well, there's only so many rounds you can deflect before you miss one and die.
A Space Marine Army vs a Clone army... eh... probably slightly to the Marines, though probably even money.
Ships? Imperial hands down.

I disagree with the clone army vs space marine army. It would be an either or affair no different from a regular Guard army.

Using the Star Wars RPG rules and the Star War movies to get a proper comparison between the two; I think the Space Marine is heavily favored to win.

Intercepting a bolt round with the lightsabre or force blocking it with the hand will still kill the jedi through the concussive forces of the detonations. In the Outcast Dead just being near a bolt detonation was enough to pulp human bodies.

The lightsabre will likely have some difficulty getting through power armor. Material in the star wars universe offers resistance to it, whereas a chainsword will have absolutely no difficulty in cutting an unarmored human in half.

Lets face it a Space Marine would easily ovecome a Jedi, an Ork would crush a Wookie and a gretchin would trounce an ewok.... but, to be fair, a Gungan would probably send a Tau home crying.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's entirely a cop-out answer IMHO, you can look at the capabilities of the two and make a comparison.

In melee combat, the average Jedi would probably win, due mostly to the lightsaber, which should be capable of puncturing powered armour (But IMO not easily).

But if the fight starts at a distance, the Space Marine firing on full-auto would overwhelm the Jedi.

I guess that is what it mostly comes down to, circumstances, if the fight starts in melee, probably Jedi. If the fight starts at range with the Marine able to fire his bolter, Marine.

Unless the Jedi is a telekine, in which case the entire belt from a heavy bolter fails to come within several meters of the Jedi, who then simply strangles the Space Marine inside his own armor with a gesture, or tells the genetic freak to swallow a plasma grenade. Kaboom. Or the telekine Jedi simply reaches over and pulls the pin on the krak grenade on the Marine's belt. Or our telepath Jedi convinces the Marine that he's not there. The Marine stands around, looking right through the Jedi his mind is convinced isn't there, as the Jedi walks calmly up and separates the Marine's head from his shoulders. Vawoom.

There is no "average" Jedi. There is no "average" Space Marine. In both cases, we have "movie Jedi", "movie Marines", "book Jedi", "book Marines" (being 10 different styles and levels of Space Marines by itself), "tabletop Marines" and "MMO Jedi", "RPG Jedi" and "RPG Marines". There's no baseline template to choose from. Skywalker (both of them) were powerful Jedi in their own right... but were nothing but punk Younglings compared to the Jedi of even 3000 years prior, let alone 5 and 10,000 years prior. Much the same can be said for the Marines in their own time-line.

Or the Jedi in question is one of those non-corporeal species that float around the SW universe. Bolters? Pssh, I'm a cloud of sentient gas. Silly bish, your weapons cannot harm *me*. And then our Force-wielding gas cloud causes the Marine to burst into flames.

...this "debate" is, as I said, always dependent on what forums its being posted on.

Then you get dudes like Darth Nihilus, who can kill a planet just by flying past it. No ordnance or Exterminatus weapon required. Feth your bolter, he's draining your life force from 50,000 km away, turning your Hive World into a Dead World overnight.

But lightsaber pwn chainsaw easy. I agree though any comparison would need to be made with fun in mind and not winning an objective debate.

 Psienesis wrote:
Unless the Jedi is a telekine, in which case the entire belt from a heavy bolter fails to come within several meters of the Jedi, who then simply strangles the Space Marine inside his own armor with a gesture, or tells the genetic freak to swallow a plasma grenade. Kaboom. Or the telekine Jedi simply reaches over and pulls the pin on the krak grenade on the Marine's belt. Or our telepath Jedi convinces the Marine that he's not there. The Marine stands around, looking right through the Jedi his mind is convinced isn't there, as the Jedi walks calmly up and separates the Marine's head from his shoulders. Vawoom.

First of all, telekine is a 40k term. I would truly, honestly love for you to show me feats of that magnitude from a Jedi who isn't exceptional.

Strangles the Space Marine? This is Jedi vs. Space Marine, not Sith vs. Space Marine. That would be very out of character for your random Jedi to utilize Force Choke.

As for a telepath, mind tricks only work on the weak-minded, which no Space Marine is. The average Jedi is not so powerful he can telepathically alter a Space Marine's mind in such a fashion, IMO, or even most fairly strong-willed people.

And there is one very notable detail you are forgetting: Space Marines are resistant to psychic powers, which, if we allow equivalency of powers this would translate to resistance towards the Force.

There is no "average" Jedi. There is no "average" Space Marine. In both cases, we have "movie Jedi", "movie Marines", "book Jedi", "book Marines" (being 10 different styles and levels of Space Marines by itself), "tabletop Marines" and "MMO Jedi", "RPG Jedi" and "RPG Marines". There's no baseline template to choose from. Skywalker (both of them) were powerful Jedi in their own right... but were nothing but punk Younglings compared to the Jedi of even 3000 years prior, let alone 5 and 10,000 years prior. Much the same can be said for the Marines in their own time-line.

Well this is just blatantly not true.

Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Luke, all are far above the norm for Jedi, like how Dante or Logan Grimnar or fething Draigo are above your average Tac Marine.

Lolno. Luke Skywalker is more powerful than guys like Exar Kun, Darth Bane, Revan, or damn near any overrated as feth ancient Sith or Jedi you can name. All are exceptional. All are less than Luke Skywalker, Grand Master of the Jedi Order. To reach or surpass Sidious or Luke's caliber, you need to look at guys like Vitiate or Nihilus.

Or the Jedi in question is one of those non-corporeal species that float around the SW universe. Bolters? Pssh, I'm a cloud of sentient gas. Silly bish, your weapons cannot harm *me*. And then our Force-wielding gas cloud causes the Marine to burst into flames.

I am not familiar with any Jedi of this nature.

...this "debate" is, as I said, always dependent on what forums its being posted on.

Then you get dudes like Darth Nihilus, who can kill a planet just by flying past it. No ordnance or Exterminatus weapon required. Feth your bolter, he's draining your life force from 50,000 km away, turning your Hive World into a Dead World overnight.

He can kill all life on it and destroy a surface of a planet sure.

Call me when he razes down the realms of Chaos Gods, smashes the Inevitable City with his awesomeness, or beats a Bloodthirster in the Warp barehanded.

Please don't bring Force aberrations like Darth Nihilus into this thread, they are very much the exception, not the rule.

 Shlazaor wrote:
But lightsaber pwn chainsaw easy. I agree though any comparison would need to be made with fun in mind and not winning an objective debate.

Perhaps, but there are people in the star war universe that have survived being struck with a lightsabre. Not many can make that claim against a chainsword, especially when wielded by a space marine. Power armor would offer resistance to the lightsabre even if it is just the press of vaporized material pushing against the lightsabre as it cuts into the power armor - remember that material does offer resistance to lightsabres; they aren't magically, 'cut through anything swords no matter what', weapons. Considering the chainsword which is crafted from adamantium, if there is even a millisecond resistance when the lightsabre cuts through the chainsword when the combatants collide their weapons, then the jedi just had his sword arm completely destroyed by the forces generated by the marine. Also the spray of loose teeth would be a severe hazard to the unarmored jedi. But, based on what I know about the lightsabre I think I am being fairly generous in thinking the jedi would be able to cut through the marine's armor and sword in a period of time that would impact a melee - which would likely be under a second.

Ignoring the “chosen ones” outliners with the jedi; the average jedi versus average space marines, I think the marine is the clear favorite in the battle.

Grunt13 wrote:Power armor would offer resistance to the lightsabre even if it is just the press of vaporized material pushing against the lightsabre as it cuts into the power armor - remember that material does offer resistance to lightsabres; they aren't magically, 'cut through anything swords no matter what', weapons. Considering the chainsword which is crafted from adamantium, if there is even a millisecond resistance when the lightsabre cuts through the chainsword when the combatants collide their weapons, then the jedi just had his sword arm completely destroyed by the forces generated by the marine. Also the spray of loose teeth would be a severe hazard to the unarmored jedi.

I don't think that the "merely" 1 inch thick plating of Space Marine power armour absolutely has to offer that much resistance against a lightsaber when we remember how easily entire Battle Droids are sliced in half within eyeblink. We'd have to compare material properties, which is when we delve into pseudoscience and fanwank, again making it impossible to come to an objective outcome. Similarly, both the lightsaber as well as a chainsword being of roughly equal length, why should the Jedi "lose his arm" if he just disables his opponent's weapon? The intense heat of a plasma blade could just melt the internal mechanics of the chainblade together; you won't see metal teeth flying anywhere as both sides of the cut will be a mass of superheated slag, rather than preserving the rails along which the teeth are dragged by the motor.

(on a sidenote, I would also assume that chainsword teeth are affixed to a chain, and would remain this way even if the weapon is cut apart rather than flying loose all over the place - even if they'd have an opening out of the blade's housing)

Grunt13 wrote:Not many can make that claim against a chainsword, especially when wielded by a space marine.

It all depends on where you're struck. People don't survive having either a chainsword or a lightsaber being stuck into their torso or cutting their heads off. Similarly, whilst losing an arm to a lightsaber does not have to be fatal, the same would be true for a chainsword. Humans have survived similar chainsaw wounds in real life, and it doesn't matter how strong the wielder is. Either the limb is off or it isn't.

First of all, telekine is a 40k term. I would truly, honestly love for you to show me feats of that magnitude from a Jedi who isn't exceptional.

No, it isn't. It's a term used in any setting, any game, that has people who move matter either by magic or through "special mind powers". A telekinetic is a telekine. We have people IRL who are called "telekines" because they appear to bend spoons with their minds. GW hardly has a copyright on psychics.

I would love to show you Jedi powers, too. Unfortunately, I live on 21st century Earth, not a galaxy far, far away in a time long, long ago.

Strangles the Space Marine? This is Jedi vs. Space Marine, not Sith vs. Space Marine. That would be very out of character for your random Jedi to utilize Force Choke.

And yet Luke Skywalker Force Chokes two Gammorean Guards in Jabba's Palace in RotJ. Anakin Skywalker makes *frequent* use of Force Choke in the Clone Wars series. Force Powers don't have an alignment descriptor outside of the various games, in which such things exist as an internal balance mechanic, not a comment on Jedi/Sith politics. There is no difference between a Jedi and a Sith other than one of philosophy. The Force is the Force is the Force. The term Jedi and the term Sith are best described as labels for political-religious parties descending from the same original organization.

It is also not impossible for a Jedi to make use of the "Dark Side" of the Force in those aspects of the EU where the division is noted. It is a constant temptation, and one that many Jedi fall for. There is no easy parallel in the 40K universe, as people don't just suddenly decide to become sorcerers and worship the Ruinous Powers to become unbound daemonhosts. It's not even analogous.

Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Luke, all are far above the norm for Jedi, like how Dante or Logan Grimnar or fething Draigo are above your average Tac Marine.

Movie Jedi and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Muppet. The entirety of SW is either focused on a given set of characters, with characters in the background lessened to show how bad-ass these named characters (as in, their names are spoken on-screen, not assigned a name in the credits or script or by the fans on a forum, but never spoken). This extends even to the EU, where you have your protagonist character(s), who, being the protagonist, are going to be lathered in "special snowflake" syndrome, and then you have all the nameless chumps around them who fail at tying their shoes because it makes the protagonist look like she/he sweats pure, 100% concentrated awesomesauce.

This is mirrored in 40K by having the IG sent to a world being savaged by doom-bunnies, but are killed to a man, so a detachment of Sororitas arrive to deal with the threat and, though they are valiant and save the lives of millions of citizens, are slain to a woman, and then a mob of ten Space Marines show up and proceed to kill off thirty million doom-bunnies with one magazine apiece for their bolters and a sharp stick. They don't even have enough sharp sticks for the whole squad, they have to share the stick.

I am not familiar with any Jedi of this nature.

Neo-Bespinian is the name of the race. They are sentient, and highly advanced as a species, and have no noted immunity or aversion to the Force. Thus, nothing precludes them from being Jedi. A character of this build has yet to appear in an EU source, and definitely not in the canon films, but given the materials' open-ended nature and established levels of canonicity, one cannot discard the possibility.

Call me when he razes down the realms of Chaos Gods, smashes the Inevitable City with his awesomeness, or beats a Bloodthirster in the Warp barehanded

If those existed in any way, shape or form in the SW universe, I might have options to display it, but as they don't, it's an impossible request to fill. One thing SW has in spades is religions shared by members of a given species, and sometimes across members of several species. One thing SW never has is any kind of actual god-being.

Again, this "debate" (and I use that term very, very loosely, for this is truly fan-wankery) hinges on the forum its being posted on.

Aren't Jedi just like howling banshees? Fast, skilled and annoying?

Sometimes.

Sometimes they are immortal Ents with laser-swords.

 Lynata wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:Power armor would offer resistance to the lightsabre even if it is just the press of vaporized material pushing against the lightsabre as it cuts into the power armor - remember that material does offer resistance to lightsabres; they aren't magically, 'cut through anything swords no matter what', weapons. Considering the chainsword which is crafted from adamantium, if there is even a millisecond resistance when the lightsabre cuts through the chainsword when the combatants collide their weapons, then the jedi just had his sword arm completely destroyed by the forces generated by the marine. Also the spray of loose teeth would be a severe hazard to the unarmored jedi.

I don't think that the "merely" 1 inch thick plating of Space Marine power armour absolutely has to offer that much resistance against a lightsaber when we remember how easily entire Battle Droids are sliced in half within eyeblink. We'd have to compare material properties, which is when we delve into pseudoscience and fanwank, again making it impossible to come to an objective outcome. Similarly, both the lightsaber as well as a chainsword being of roughly equal length, why should the Jedi "lose his arm" if he just disables his opponent's weapon? The intense heat of a plasma blade could just melt the internal mechanics of the chainblade together; you won't see metal teeth flying anywhere as both sides of the cut will be a mass of superheated slag, rather than preserving the rails along which the teeth are dragged by the motor.

Lightsabres are slowed by material, just rewatch the fight scene in Star Wars 6, handrails are able to interfere with the blade swings. There are other examples in the books, movies, and tech manuals explaining that the lightsabers will be slowed by what it is cutting through, the denser the substance the longer it takes to burn through. Most battle droids are nowhere near as durable as power armor as they are slain by the same weapons that sometimes fail to kill normal humans.

Lightsabers could get through marine armor given time. In the star war universe there exist material which could contest lightsabres for long durations. People armed with this material in the form of a sword could engage in prolong combats with the jedi. I believe that power armor would grant a fairly decent level of protection against a lightsabre even if it was just a second or two of deflection. Also one inch (I believe that is just the armor coating the exoskeleton) of super dense material translates into a lot of pressure once that material in vaporized. It would be like pushing a stick through 300 mile per hour wind (guestimate on my part). A lightsabre would have to work it’s way through power armor, whereas a chain sword would have no problem with the jedi’s robes.

The speed and strength of the marines swing would transfer that energy directly to the jedi if the chainsword held for even a fraction of the second on contact - which based on what I know about the lightsabre is a decent expectation. If someone was to stand by a high speed train track and struck it with a baseball bat as it soured past him, a double amputation on the idiot’s part could be expected. That is assuming that the jedi maintains a grip on the lightsabre, otherwise the chainsword and lightsabre, both would be driven into the jedi. I believe that the Adamantium that the chainsword is made up of will survive contact with the lightsabre long enoght for the battle to be resolved. But let’s say the lightsabre is able to easily sever the chainsword.

What happens when an active chainsword is destroyed two feet from an unarmored man’s face by a lightsabre can be largely conjectured. But, in almost every examination I can think of, it comes out poorly for the jedi. The lightsabres use heat to cut through substances, this method is very dangerous when faced with a chainsword. If the lightsabre was able to sever the chainsword via transferring heat to chainsword near instantaneously thus saving the jedi from any transfer of kinetic force: having a super heated hunk of slab in such proximity is lethal and the jedi could likely fry himself; the severed section of the sword is still being carried towards via momentum which would still kill the jedi; intercepting the chainsword would likely have the jedi being sprayed with the molten pieces of the teeth the lightsabre severed from the chainsword (when you convert the spinning teeth of the chainsword to molten metal, that material will then spray everything in front of it); and destroying an active motorized machine two feet away from an unarmored human being would be fatal for many other reasons.

 Lynata wrote:

(on a sidenote, I would also assume that chainsword teeth are affixed to a chain, and would remain this way even if the weapon is cut apart rather than flying loose all over the place - even if they'd have an opening out of the blade's housing)

Operating on the belief that the lightsabre have the ability to cut through any material instantaneously or near instantaneously (something I do not subscribe to). When the lightsabre intersects the chainsword which is rotating teeth at rather extreme speed the lightsabre would cut through quite a number of individual teeth before striking the body of the sword. These severed, molten, teeth would likely end up in the jedi’s face. Also destroying the chainsword could result in the weapon exploding. Also broken chain weapons have sprayed their teeth in the books.

You all seem to have forgotten one major factor.

Jedi aren't fighters. They are all defence. A Sith vs Space Marine... now that's a proper match up.

Kinda sad to take a break from Dakka for a few months only to find that these VS debates are still happening.

Isn't there a search feature?

There are aggressive schools of Jedi combat. They're just not depicted in the films very much (or at all, really), moreso in the EU books and RPGs.

There are even Jedi Snipers who carry what is kinda the SW equivalent of the Vindicare Rifle. Just because Obi-Wan didn't like blasters doesn't mean that no Jedi ever carries one.

Grunt13 wrote:Lightsabres are slowed by material, just rewatch the fight scene in Star Wars 6, handrails are able to interfere with the blade swings. There are other examples in the books, movies, and tech manuals explaining that the lightsabers will be slowed by what it is cutting through, the denser the substance the longer it takes to burn through.

The only materials actually capable of being used as armour against lightsabers are phrik and cortosis, and they are fairly rare. Marine power armour can be penetrated by a las round. Personally, I just don't believe that a lasgun is a more dangerous weapon than a lightsaber, considering that the latter would be closer to a plasma weapon - which is notably more powerful in 40k.

Grunt13 wrote:Most battle droids are nowhere near as durable as power armor as they are slain by the same weapons that sometimes fail to kill normal humans.

Like lightsabers?
As I said, it all depends on where you strike. I've never seen a weapon that "fails to kill normal humans" easily penetrate a Battle Droid's breastplate, though.

Grunt13 wrote:Also one inch (I believe that is just the armor coating the exoskeleton) of super dense material translates into a lot of pressure once that material in vaporized. It would be like pushing a stick through 300 mile per hour wind (guestimate on my part). A lightsabre would have to work it’s way through power armor, whereas a chain sword would have no problem with the jedi’s robes.

See, now you're assuming that a fictional material has some property that (to my knowledge) was never even mentioned in the fluff. That's exactly why comparisons like these don't work. The exact reaction of armour and weapon is too important, yet that is exactly what we're missing here.

Also, what exoskeleton? Power armour works by slapping a bunch of plates onto a suit of electrically motivated fibre-bundles, not like, say, the Powerlifter from Aliens.
Or were you referring to the inner layer beneath the armour plates, where the various gadgets would be located?

And are you really comparing a Space Marine's melee swing to the kinetic energy of a high speed train striking an obstacle on the track ...?
I mean ... okay, if that's what you think, but we'll have to disagree on that.

Grunt13 wrote:If the lightsabre was able to sever the chainsword via transferring heat to chainsword near instantaneously thus saving the jedi from any transfer of kinetic force: having a super heated hunk of slab in such proximity is lethal and the jedi could likely fry himself; the severed section of the sword is still being carried towards via momentum which would still kill the jedi

That would depend on how exactly the chainsword is parried.
Lightsabers are not the only melee weapons in the Star Wars setting, and the Jedi have been fighting the wielders of vibroswords and axes for millennia. I can only assume that it's not as lethal as you make it out to be.

Grunt13 wrote:When the lightsabre intersects the chainsword which is rotating teeth at rather extreme speed the lightsabre would cut through quite a number of individual teeth before striking the body of the sword. These severed molten teeth would likely end up in the jedi’s face.

I would think that those few teeth that do pass through the lightsaber's blade do not just melt, they'd evaporate. At least we don't see much in terms of molten metal when the Jedi hack through legions of Battle Droids etc.

Grunt13 wrote:Also broken chain weapons have sprayed their teeth in the books.

Well, "broken" probably means "exploding" due to contact with a power sword (or another chainsword!) or something rather than "melted together".

Your answer may be found in Episode III, Revenge of the Sith.

Observe how Jedi galaxy-wide are cut down without a fight in the blink of an eye as Clone Troopers pull the trigger under Order 66.

Lightsabres are slowed by material, just rewatch the fight scene in Star Wars 6, handrails are able to interfere with the blade swings. There are other examples in the books, movies, and tech manuals explaining that the lightsabers will be slowed by what it is cutting through, the denser the substance the longer it takes to burn through. Most battle droids are nowhere near as durable as power armor as they are slain by the same weapons that sometimes fail to kill normal humans.

Lightsabers could get through marine armor given time. In the star war universe there exist material which could contest lightsabres for long durations. People armed with this material in the form of a sword could engage in prolong combats with the jedi. I believe that power armor would grant a fairly decent level of protection against a lightsabre even if it was just a second or two of deflection. Also one inch (I believe that is just the armor coating the exoskeleton) of super dense material translates into a lot of pressure once that material in vaporized. It would be like pushing a stick through 300 mile per hour wind (guestimate on my part). A lightsabre would have to work it’s way through power armor, whereas a chain sword would have no problem with the jedi’s robes.

The speed and strength of the marines swing would transfer that energy directly to the jedi if the chainsword held for even a fraction of the second on contact - which based on what I know about the lightsabre is a decent expectation. If someone was to stand by a high speed train track and struck it with a baseball bat as it soured past him, a double amputation on the idiot’s part could be expected. That is assuming that the jedi maintains a grip on the lightsabre, otherwise the chainsword and lightsabre, both would be driven into the jedi. I believe that the Adamantium that the chainsword is made up of will survive contact with the lightsabre long enoght for the battle to be resolved. But let’s say the lightsabre is able to easily sever the chainsword.

What happens when an active chainsword is destroyed two feet from an unarmored man’s face by a lightsabre can be largely conjectured. But, in almost every examination I can think of, it comes out poorly for the jedi. The lightsabres use heat to cut through substances, this method is very dangerous when faced with a chainsword. If the lightsabre was able to sever the chainsword via transferring heat to chainsword near instantaneously thus saving the jedi from any transfer of kinetic force: having a super heated hunk of slab in such proximity is lethal and the jedi could likely fry himself; the severed section of the sword is still being carried towards via momentum which would still kill the jedi; intercepting the chainsword would likely have the jedi being sprayed with the molten pieces of the teeth the lightsabre severed from the chainsword (when you convert the spinning teeth of the chainsword to molten metal, that material will then spray everything in front of it); and destroying an active motorized machine two feet away from an unarmored human being would be fatal for many other reasons.

First, you need to see that scene again. Lightsabers have always been shown to cut through anything instantly. The exception is in the first movie where the lightsaber has trouble when the door is reinforced.

Lightsabers however are able to cut through anything including body parts without any effort. The reason a chainsword cuts through what it does is because of the Space Marines super human strength. A basic weakling can do the same effect no problem. Lightsabers are suppose to only have trouble cutting one type of material in the entire universe, a special material that is only effective against lightsabers (cortossis) If a chainsword is a basic sword that has to deal with things like armor, a lightsaber is a Power Weapon at a minimum.

Also in your last paragraph, lightsabers dont work like that. Fluff is kind of weird but if you cut something it doesnt remain at super hot levels. Its like a lasbolt, it is so hot it instantly cuts through whatever it hits and cauterizes the wound directly after it. Hence why characters (minus that one mistake in Episode 4) get arms chopped off and dont bleed to death. The same thing happens in 40k with Lasbolts except they are more focused.



Im not saying the Jedi will surely win, Im jsut saying that you miss understood lightsabers.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Vegeta would own them both

Bigu Bangu Attacku!

Why do they always add "u"s to everything? Silly Japanese.

 Eiríkr wrote:
Your answer may be found in Episode III, Revenge of the Sith.

Observe how Jedi galaxy-wide are cut down without a fight in the blink of an eye as Clone Troopers pull the trigger under Order 66.

Squads of elite soldiers fighting Jedi one on one. 1 Clone Trooper vs 1 Jedi is Jedi no problem.

10 CLones vs a Jedi and a Jedi is going to have trouble

 Galdos wrote:

Lightsabers however are able to cut through anything including body parts without any effort. The reason a chainsword cuts through what it does is because of the Space Marines super human strength. A basic weakling can do the same effect no problem. Lightsabers are suppose to only have trouble cutting one type of material in the entire universe, a special material that is only effective against lightsabers (cortossis) If a chainsword is a basic sword that has to deal with things like armor, a lightsaber is a Power Weapon at a minimum.

Cortossis has been ret-conned out of the universe. Apparently, despite after decades of being in the material, Lucas was completely unaware of it until they tried to have a cortossis weapon available for a Mandalorean in one of the Clone War cartoons (the same cartoon that retconned Mandalore from a blasted-out post-Apocalyptic wasteland into a happy prosperous planet full of hippies), and he had a conniption and forced them (no pun intended) to change it to another form of energy weapon.

 Eiríkr wrote:
Your answer may be found in Episode III, Revenge of the Sith.

Observe how Jedi galaxy-wide are cut down without a fight in the blink of an eye as Clone Troopers pull the trigger under Order 66.

You could have the same thing happen to Space Marines by disabling all of the auto-senses in their helmets and having the 10 IG guys behind them suddenly decide to shoot him in the back.

Also note that the execution of Order 66 is not successful in every case, even in the case of not-particularly-noteworthy Jedi.

 Omegus wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

Lightsabers however are able to cut through anything including body parts without any effort. The reason a chainsword cuts through what it does is because of the Space Marines super human strength. A basic weakling can do the same effect no problem. Lightsabers are suppose to only have trouble cutting one type of material in the entire universe, a special material that is only effective against lightsabers (cortossis) If a chainsword is a basic sword that has to deal with things like armor, a lightsaber is a Power Weapon at a minimum.

Cortossis has been ret-conned out of the universe. Apparently, despite after decades of being in the material, Lucas was completely unaware of it until they tried to have a cortossis weapon available for a Mandalorean in one of the Clone War cartoons (the same cartoon that retconned Mandalore from a blasted-out post-Apocalyptic wasteland into a happy prosperous planet full of hippies), and he had a conniption and forced them (no pun intended) to change it to another form of energy weapon.

Say what?

Jesus feth, feth Lucas.

Its a good thing I consider Timothy Zahn's word to be more canon than Lucas. (I dont care about the Cortiss thing, its the fact it would make anything that had Cortorsiss as an important focus non-canon which would include the books covering the end of the Galactic Civil War

Huh? @ cortosis

Its wookieepedia article does not mention that. You sure you heard that right? The Prequels had the Magnaguards parry lightsabers with their phrik-laced electrostaffs, too, so I'd be surprised if Lucas suddenly had a problem with the idea.

 Lynata wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:When the lightsabre intersects the chainsword which is rotating teeth at rather extreme speed the lightsabre would cut through quite a number of individual teeth before striking the body of the sword. These severed molten teeth would likely end up in the jedi’s face.

I would think that those few teeth that do pass through the lightsaber's blade do not just melt, they'd evaporate. At least we don't see much in terms of molten metal when the Jedi hack through legions of Battle Droids etc.

If the lightsaber was to heat the material of the chainsword to the point that it "evaporates" than it just flash vaporized it. Converting a gram of metal into a gas through heat would subject the jedi (and any likely any unshield human in the nearby area) to a lethal amount of heat and vaporized metal.

"A lightsaber blade was a mass-less form that neither radiated heat nor expended energy until it came into contact with something solid. The power of the energy blade was so great that it could cut through almost anything, although the speed through which it cut depended on the density of the subject." - Wookiepedia
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

4 minutes into the video, handrails deflect lightsaber strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFvAeSJgjc

Grunt13 wrote:If the lightsaber was to heat the material of the chainsword to the point that it "evaporates" than it just flash vaporized it. Converting a gram of metal into a gas through heat would subject the jedi (and any likely any unshield human in the nearby area) to a lethal amount of heat and vaporized metal.

Since you've already quoted WP:
"The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape."

Not sure why a small cloud of vaporised metal rising up from the impact location should harm the wielder, tho.

Also, I'd rather work with "proper" quotes from an actual book, as wikis - and I have written up wiki articles myself in the past - may not be all that accurate. For example, whilst I do not actually doubt that material density (marginally) affects the speed at which a lightsaber can cut through something, that quote too is unsourced and thus may well be just fan speculation. Similar to the speculation that Space Marine armour might or might not evoke such an effect.

Grunt13 wrote:4 minutes into the video, handrails deflect lightsaber strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFvAeSJgjc

I well remember that scene, but that changes nothing on what I said.
Here's a speculation of my own: We could assume that the handrails were perhaps laced with phrik or cortosis, or somehow magnetised in a way that it would affect the containment field emitted by the hilt. Movie pseudoscience go!

 Omegus wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

Lightsabers however are able to cut through anything including body parts without any effort. The reason a chainsword cuts through what it does is because of the Space Marines super human strength. A basic weakling can do the same effect no problem. Lightsabers are suppose to only have trouble cutting one type of material in the entire universe, a special material that is only effective against lightsabers (cortossis) If a chainsword is a basic sword that has to deal with things like armor, a lightsaber is a Power Weapon at a minimum.

Cortossis has been ret-conned out of the universe. Apparently, despite after decades of being in the material, Lucas was completely unaware of it until they tried to have a cortossis weapon available for a Mandalorean in one of the Clone War cartoons (the same cartoon that retconned Mandalore from a blasted-out post-Apocalyptic wasteland into a happy prosperous planet full of hippies), and he had a conniption and forced them (no pun intended) to change it to another form of energy weapon.

Nothing is ever ret-conned out of the SW universe, because that is not how the Holocron Database's canonicity works. It may not be considered G-canon (and is, in fact, not, as Lucas did not create the idea, nor has it appeared, by name, in any of the films) but as it exists in the various KOTOR video games and supplemental products, which are considered "C-Canon" by the Holocron team (being the official database of Star Wars lore). I'm not certain if it is ever mentioned by name in the Clone Wars cartoon series or other television Star Wars properties... if it is, then that would make it T-Canon.

Since the cortosis weave technology exists in the KOTOR games, that precludes it from the N-Canon (Non-Canon) category, and as KOTOR post-dates the establishment of the Holocron, it cannot be S-Canon (Secondary Canon) which contains materials not the films or statements by George Lucas that has variable or questionable continuity within the Star Wars license (such as the Marvel Star Wars comics from the early 1980s).

For those readers just joining in, here is the "pyramid" of Star Wars Canon. Note that no such thing exists for 40k.

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).

T-canon, or Television Canon, refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee.

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be; they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

Bolding and such mine, added for ease of reading.


... also, when it comes to Mandalore, the planet... it's been 1000 or more years since the end of the Old Republic era. Mandalore has rebuilt and regained prominence on the Galactic stage. Given the advanced technology available to the SW universe, this is not so far-fetched. 1,000 years is a long fething time.

You think its not bouncing off but going through it and than he is pulling the saber out in the same direction? Other-wise that is a continuity error

The depictions of both cortosis and phrik indicate that it deflects lightsabers. In some sources, cortosis will actually shut a lightsaber off, sometimes momentarily, sometimes for several minutes (varies by source).

One thing that keeps popping up in this thread is exploding bolt rounds killing a Jedi with flying shrapnel. The explosive charge of a bolt-round is located behind the armor-piercing shell. If the Jedi has cut or deflected that away with the lightsaber, there's very little left for the explosive charge to create shrapnel out of. The exception to this would be Metal Storm fragmenting bolt-rounds, but those are hardly common-issue amongst Marine forces.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

 Lynata wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:If the lightsaber was to heat the material of the chainsword to the point that it "evaporates" than it just flash vaporized it. Converting a gram of metal into a gas through heat would subject the jedi (and any likely any unshield human in the nearby area) to a lethal amount of heat and vaporized metal.

Since you've already quoted WP:
"The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape."

Not sure why a small cloud of vaporised metal rising up from the impact location should harm the wielder, tho.

Also, I'd rather work with "proper" quotes from an actual book, as wikis - and I have written up wiki articles myself in the past - may not be all that accurate. For example, whilst I do not actually doubt that material density (marginally) affects the speed at which a lightsaber can cut through something, that quote too is unsourced and thus may well be just fan speculation. Similar to the speculation that Space Marine armour might or might not evoke such an effect.

Grunt13 wrote:4 minutes into the video, handrails deflect lightsaber strikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RFvAeSJgjc

I well remember that scene, but that changes nothing on what I said.
Here's a speculation of my own: We could assume that the handrails were perhaps laced with phrik or cortosis, or somehow magnetised in a way that it would affect the containment field emitted by the hilt. Movie pseudoscience go!

On the rails
1) You will find similar background interference in other fight scenes not just the handrails.
2) That requires us to believe the empire used the very rare elements for handrails in the first place.
3) The rails could not be made out of the phrik or cortosis because Luke was able to cut through it with a strong swing - the handrails just resisted severing instantly by the lightsaber.

By converting a metal to a gas you just generated an extreme degree of heat and vaporized metal that would kill everyone in the nearby area. A field protecting the user against the heat produce by the lightsaber's blade would not protect them against the heat of an object vaporized by the blade. The amount of volume a gas covers versus the amount of volume a solid covers is pretty extreme. If all the air in a large room was compressed into a dense solid it would likely be as smaller than a pea. Converting a solid to a gas does the inverse; it fills the room. The jedi would be sprayed and inhaling metal that is heated to an insane degree, well past its molten state.

The field of the saber that keeps the blade from burning its wielder probably also contains a significant portion of heat generated while it cuts through things, though this is supposition (as much supposition as assuming a SM can lift his arms over his head because his pauldrons are somehow moved out of the way).

However, the lightsaber does not necessarily convert solid matter into a gaseous state. The blade is hot enough that it may, possibly, be able to do so, but the object in question will liquify before becoming gaseous, and then follow the dictates of gravitic effects before it can shift from liquid to gas.

Grunt13 wrote:1) You will find similar background interference in other fight scenes not just the handrails.
2) That requires us to believe the empire used the very rare elements for handrails in the first place.
3) The rails could not be made out of the phrik or cortosis because Luke was able to cut through it with a strong swing - the handrails just resisted severing instantly by the lightsaber.

1) I don't recall similar interferences in other scenes, although that must not mean much. I don't consider my memory that reliable when it comes to such minor details.
2) Why should the Empire not have used these elements for hand rails there? It was the Emperor's throne room.
3) My copout excuse: I said "laced" with phrik or cortosis rather than pure, hence reduced efficiency (examples of such combination alloys do exist within the setting, iirc).

But, to prevent us from going in circles, let's just assume that it works as you say. That still leaves us with the question on how it should affect Space Marine armour - and here you simply assume that it wouldn't cut. Based on what? Knowledge on how one fictional material whose exact properties we do not know reacts to a fictional weapon from another setting is non-existent. Luke managed to cut throuth the belly armor of an AT-AT in TESB with a single slash. Maybe Marine armour would split just as easily? We will never know.

Grunt13 wrote:By converting a metal to a gas you just generated an extreme degree of heat and vaporized metal that would kill everyone in the nearby area.

Yet apparently that does not happen in Star Wars, does it?

I'm no physicist, but is flash-vaporizing such a small amount of metal really that dangerous, considering that it happens within an atmosphere of normal temperature, which would surely serve to equalise the heat somewhat?

Psienesis wrote:However, the lightsaber does not necessarily convert solid matter into a gaseous state. The blade is hot enough that it may, possibly, be able to do so, but the object in question will liquify before becoming gaseous, and then follow the dictates of gravitic effects before it can shift from liquid to gas.

By all rights it should - I'm just operating on the lack of molten metal that would get flung around in the various movies, series, etc if it would work that way. Sometimes you see a few drops, but not nearly as much as we should, relative to whatever the weapon just cut through. So my assumption would be that the intense heat is sufficient to achieve evaporation that fast.

... hmm, or maybe the metal just "retracted" inwards, as if pushed aside by the electromagnetically contained plasma blade ... although I'm really not sure if that would make any sense in regards to realism.

 Psienesis wrote:
The depictions of both cortosis and phrik indicate that it deflects lightsabers. In some sources, cortosis will actually shut a lightsaber off, sometimes momentarily, sometimes for several minutes (varies by source).

It's generally accepted that pure Cortosis will short a lightsaber, but it's soft, terrible for anything that isn't a lightsaber. At all. Ever.
Cortosis Weave or Alloy can do other stuff too.

As with 40K and the Black Library, so, too, is Star Wars fluff dependent on source and author.

By all rights it should - I'm just operating on the lack of molten metal that would get flung around in the various movies, series, etc if it would work that way. Sometimes you see a few drops, but not nearly as much as we should, relative to whatever the weapon just cut through. So my assumption would be that the intense heat is sufficient to achieve evaporation that fast.

... hmm, or maybe the metal just "retracted" inwards, as if pushed aside by the electromagnetically contained plasma blade ... although I'm really not sure if that would make any sense in regards to realism.

Well, that starts getting into the question of whether or not the SFX director considered that showing the total volume of liquified metal flying around the screen was worth the cost in CGI or practical effects, which is an entirely separate matter from "realism" or "how it works in-universe". There was an entire scene cut from Ep3 that was to have Kenobi and Skywalker falling through the floor of a TF ship they'd just cut through, into a river of engine coolant or water or something... but the CGI on the liquid effects looked absolutely terrible, so they cut the scene entirely. Showing molten metal flying about and behaving as molten metal should may simply not have been in the budget.

The boiling point of steel is around 3000 C. Due to fact that it is being flash boil the temperature would be significantly higher as boiling point is where the material starts to convert between a liquid and a gas. This vaporize material would expand outwardly in a cloud covering the jedi and marine, the material would cool to a molten state, than to solid white hot state, than to cooler states until it reaches normal temperature. If the lightsaber vaporizes the chainsword teeth, the jedi is boiled to the bone, if the teeth are just turned to a molten state then the jedi would likely be sprayed due to the motion of the spinning teeth on the chainsword. If the teeth are neatly sliced from the blade the jedi would still be sprayed by the shards of metal.

I am of the opinion that a chainsword would survive repeated contacts with the lightsaber due to the fact that the individual teeth are only in contact with the lightsaber for a brief time so the heat is distributed throughout the blade minimizing the temperature change of a weapon that is probably heavily heat shielded due to the amount of friction it that would be generated on contact with armor, and also that it is made from an extremely durable material.

 Psienesis wrote:
The depictions of both cortosis and phrik indicate that it deflects lightsabers. In some sources, cortosis will actually shut a lightsaber off, sometimes momentarily, sometimes for several minutes (varies by source).

One thing that keeps popping up in this thread is exploding bolt rounds killing a Jedi with flying shrapnel. The explosive charge of a bolt-round is located behind the armor-piercing shell. If the Jedi has cut or deflected that away with the lightsaber, there's very little left for the explosive charge to create shrapnel out of. The exception to this would be Metal Storm fragmenting bolt-rounds, but those are hardly common-issue amongst Marine forces.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

Can a lightsaber stop a physical round?
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/16dt1l/star_wars_what_would_happen_if_a_jedi_tried_to/

If a light saber hits an explosion round it would likely cause that round to detonate - if it is even able to cut through the bolt that is. Reflecting the bolt round would not work as the force behind the round surpasses the physical strength of jedi; and even if he could, stopping the bolts momentum entirely would likely trigger it to explode. The jedi would not be able to knock the bolt away like a tennis ball. Nor would he be able to handle the amount of boltfire the marine could unload upon him even if he could.

We can only guess at what metals the various bits of things in SW are made of. After all, we're assuming its steel, bound by the same physics that steel here on 21c Earth is bound by. We have no knowledge of what space-steel in the SW universe may be bound under, or even if it is steel at all. It may be plas-steel, being a metal-like plastic material, which has a much lower melting point than Earth steel (maybe).


A lightsaber has no physical matter to its blade, other than photons. It is, literally, a sword made of heat and light, having no edge, but also having an edge along every possible angle. So a lightsaber does not "block" bullets, though it can deflect energy pulses (possibly due to the energy field that contains the plasma reaction, but this is speculation).

It can, however, easily melt the "bullet" part of a boltround. Once that is melted, all that is left is the explosive charge that is supposed to make that metal bit shatter (explode) when its inside a target, having just set off the mass-reactive fuse. However, with no leading metal, there's nothing left for the explosive charge to explode. Basically, all you get now is a bang and a flash, but there's no fragmenting metal driven outward by that explosion, because it just evaporated.

However, were I a Jedi in the scenario, I'd be using telekinesis or some other Force trick to stop bolters, not the lightsaber. That would be used to stop low-volume fire, like a lasgun or a bolt-pistol, rather than a full-sized boltgun.

Concussive forces from the explosion would be enough to destroy the jedi. The lightsaber doesn't magically make material disappear; even if it is able to cut through the bolt round the explosion will still have the material of the destroyed bolt to spray in the jedi's face.

Plus from the pervious link:
“confirmed by wookiepedia- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.”

 Void__Dragon wrote:


It wouldn't melt. It would explode.

Prove it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Congratulations, you have proven that Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, two very powerful, skilled Jed

Obi-Wan as a Padawan was stronger in the force than your average Knight? Interesting assertion. Prove it.

You don't want to make this a feat war, and we both know this Blax.

Well, I don't have a problem destroying your argument and exposing your ignorance of Star Wars to the world. I would advise you to actually read some Star Wars material before we start though, because it would help you not show your ass on the internet for the world to see. Like for example, if you actually knew anything about Star Wars you'd know that Coleman Trebor was a diplomat and a pacifist who was known for his negotiations skills, political know-how and meditations, rather than combat skills, and was a master of Niman, which is called "the diplomat's form" because it isn't combat-intensive and allows the practitioner to focus on things other than fighting, etc etc.

As a casual example of lifting, Mara Jade as a teenage girl was capable of casually lifting a one-ton machine and tossing it at someone. She did it in Allegiance, a Star Wars book you've never read.

Don't reply, I have the high ground.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Plus from the pervious link:
“confirmed by wookiepedia- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.”

There is no source listed for that statement; calling it irrelevant would be an understatement.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


It wouldn't melt. It would explode.

Prove it.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Plus from the pervious link:
“confirmed by wookiepedia- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower
For example, during the days of the Galactic Republic, mercenaries fearing an intervention by Jedi Knights used rapid-fire slugthrowers that were impossible to completely deflect, unlike blaster bolts.”

There is no source listed for that statement; calling it irrelevant would be an understatement.

And what exactly would the lightsaber do to the bolt round that would offer the jedi any real protection?

The burden of proof is not on the people arguing against the lightsaber's usefulness in intercepting non-blasters rounds, but on the people who argue for it. Lightsabers have widely demonstrated their ability to intercept the slow moving, apparently massless, composed of basically the same energy, blaster shots. Proving that the relationship will carry through to other forms of projectiles falls to those attempting to make that case. Kryptonite won’t likely kill the hulk for example; and in the same vein of thought, why should people simply agree that a lightsaber could have any significant impact on a solid round without evidence to that effect - where is your proof?

People on Dakka arguing that the lightsaber wouldn’t be very effective against a bolter already made very generous concessions regarding the lightsaber's ability without the lightsaber crowd having to prove anything. The previous thread made numerous logical arguments using physics and common sense against the lightsaber being able to protect against normal solid rounds let alone bolt rounds. The general consensus of that thread, untainted by arguing for another combatant, is that the lightsaber would be a poor defense against any form of solid shot. We don’t have to disprove the notion that lightsabers would be effective against a bolt round any more than we have to find evidence to disprove the notion that Kryptonite will hurt the hulk - so far there is no evidence to disprove.

reposted:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/16dt1l/star_wars_what_would_happen_if_a_jedi_tried_to/

 Grunt13 wrote:

And what exactly would the lightsaber do to the bolt round that would offer the jedi any real protection?

Vaporize it instantly, like it does to any other metal.

The burden of proof is not on the people arguing against the lightsaber's usefulness in intercepting non-blasters rounds, but on the people who argue for it.

No, actually. If you're going to make the claim "a lightsaber wouldn't be able to protect a Jedi from a solid-projectile", you need to provide reasoning that supports it.

There is in-universe instances of Jedi using their lightsabers to deflect slug-throwers. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu fights on a planet where everyone uses slug-throwers because some sort of aggressive mold prevents blasters from working properly- it is never mentioned once in the narrative that he struggles to deal with the rounds or has to resort to special tactics to defend against them, he just uses his lightsaber to block them like he does with blasters. That's just one example of many that shows that the assumption of solid-projectile weapons trouncing lightsabers is unfounded, and it's kind of a problem that I have with this discussion on a micro-chasm level.

So many of these questions are answered, quite succinctly, in the Star Wars fluff. Why bother jumping into a thread and vehemently arguing that X beats Y when you- and I mean you in a general sense, not specifically- only know a a very shallow amount about the surface material? I don't jump into Star Wars vs. Star Trek debates specifically because the only thing I know about Star Trek is what I've seen from the movies.

This is dumb.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
This is dumb.

Seconded!

Yes it is, but people like VS threads, what can you do?

Even GW does it. The book 'Flesh of Cretacia' ends up with marines going up against something very similar to Godzilla (although it isn't) but they fight anyway (as if it is Godzilla).

It's the same as discussing the lost primarchs (lol.. for this thread it's Vader and Yoda. Somewhere there are some very small green marines) It comes round again and again and occasionally, I learn something new - there'll be some fluff somewhere that I've not read.

Arguing in universe against in universe will go ultimately nowhere, but this threads still going to carry on for a while regardless...

I'm just going to put my feet up and get the popcorn

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:

And what exactly would the lightsaber do to the bolt round that would offer the jedi any real protection?

Vaporize it instantly, like it does to any other metal.

Then the jedi is dead three times over. Vaporization does not mean magically disappear; that the bolt round would not be harmlessly absorb into the lightsaber’s blade or disappear in a tiny puff of soot, like you seem to suggest.

1)
Kinetic energy. This is not magiced away because the matter changes states. The lightsaber would have to absorb the considerably force of the bolt round whether it was a solid, liquid or gas. The force of the round would still be transferred to the jedi. I would expand on this, but I consider it to be irrelevant considering the effects of vaporization. Also it seems to imply that the lightsaber was simply eating the bolt out of existence - that matter was completely destroyed with no ill effect to the person two feet away from said occurrence.

2)
Volume difference between the states:
liquid O2 has a density of 1140 kg/m3
gaseous O2 has a density of 1.29 kg/m3

That means when 1 m3 of liquid O2 is converted to a gas its volume balloons up to 884 m3. To give perspective to this, one thimble containing a volume of 1 cm3 of liquid O2 would fill an 2 meter by 2 meter by 2 meter volume in its gaseous state.

Steel has a boiling point 3000 C - I don;t know the boiling point of diamantine or deuterium or any other elements of the bolt round, but in order to vaporize the round it would have to be heated to past the boiling point of its most tempered component. The lightsaber would turn convert the .75 caliber bullet you could hold in your hand into a death cloud centered on him. This cloud would transfer its heat to the surrounding environment, which includes the jedi. He would also enjoy a thin molten steel coating as the metal/material “cooled” and “dewed” upon his skin. The temperature would diffuse outward fairly rapidly superheating the air and environment. I would dare to make a guess that anyone unshielded human within 3 meters would be dead, 5 meters horrible burned, 10 meters might walk away from it. But this scenario is unrealistic because:

3)
I said “cloud” in my previous statement, that was misleading. It gives the impression that bolt was gentle converted into vapor and dropped on the jedi. The reaction of flash vaporization would be extremely violent. People a mile away would look up to the sky and say, “Was that thunder?” There would be a significant explosion due to the rapid expansion of the bolt round into a mass of vapor.

“Vaporization” has become a joke in the sci-fi realms, the star trek wiki addresses that the “vaporization” setting for phasers isn’t really vaporization. As Kirk can flash a Klingon out of existence without killing everyone in the nearby area:

“Phasers at full power have been known to make their targets completely disappear, an effect often described as "vaporization", although it is never accompanied by the violent explosion and superheated cloud of vapor one would expect from vaporizing a target such as a human in less than a second.”
http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wiki/index.php/Phaser

I really doubt lightsabers would vaporized an entire bullet; where is your evidence for this event - a solid round vanishing on contact with the lightsaber. And there is no reason at all to insist that the bolt round would not detonate on contact with the lightsaber if the bolt was burn through or its course changed by being batted aside. One bolt round fired at the jedi would be a serious problem and boltguns fire in bursts.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
This is dumb.

Seconded!

I've been saying that for three pages, yet it marches onward. Much like the Imperium, I guess.

I don;t know the boiling point of diamantine or deuterium or any other elements of the bolt round

Deuterium (which is a real thing) has a boiling point of -249.6 degrees Celsius. Yes, negative two hundred forty-nine-point-six.

I said “cloud” in my previous statement, that was misleading. It gives the impression that bolt was gentle converted into vapor and dropped on the jedi. The reaction of flash vaporization would be extremely violent. People a mile away would look up to the sky and say, “Was that thunder?” There would be a significant explosion due to the rapid expansion of the bolt round into a mass of vapor.

There's not enough volume of matter in the bolt round to cause a mile-plus range audible reaction. This, however, is not the point of the discussion, because you're trying to bring Real Science into a discussion of Space Marines vs Jedi. If we wanted to get into that, I could point out that whoever designed the bolter round must have worked for the Warren Commission, because the bolt-round's design requires the cartridge to be leaving the barrel along with the bullet, otherwise there's nothing behind the gyro-stabilizing element (which can be affixed to the butt of the round) to hold the explosive charge (which the bolter requires) or the rocket propulsion materials in place. This, of course, renders the bolt-round into an absolutely untenable device. Its initial charge would have trouble throwing its mass more than a couple meters (when the length of the barrel is all it is designed to accomplish), and that at velocities that, at best, would cause a moderate bruise, as the rocket-propulsion system, lacking anything to channel its thrust backwards, rather than in every direction as the powder billows out around the muzzle of the bolter, igniting in a bright flash and a fizzle.

Which brings us, once again, to the point I made in my initial post. This is a 40K forum so, of course, the Space Marine wins.

Psienesis wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:This is dumb.

Seconded!

I've been saying that for three pages, yet it marches onward.

Yeah... I allowed myself to get baited into the debate in spite of my initial remarks regarding the absurdity of such comparisons and the extreme reliance on baseless assumptions.
But I got better!

40k vs SW discussions always end up going full SIMPLE JACK.

This always degenerates into who would win the space war. 40k fanboys always selectively point to the Black Library books for feats dealing with firepower.

Based on back-calculations on power needed to vaporise the requisite quantity of rock, 40k always wins the firepower arguement with three caveats.

1. The 40k fanboys always discount the fact that main gun (novacannon/lance) firepower is rated at between 10 000x to 100 000x the CANON stated power of torpedoes (600GT IIRC). The trouble is that both weapon types are noted in CANON as being effective against enemy ship armor. If the torpedo numbers are accurate, then the lance batteries output enough power to one-shot enemy ships. If the battery power is accurate, then torpedoes are woefully ineffective. Cumulative damage can't really be factored in when you are talking about such a huge difference in stated power. You could fire at the front armor of an M1 with a 9mm pistol without harming it in the least. If the upper numbers are used, Star Wars has zero chance of winning. If the lower numbers are used, Star Wars is underpowered by a magnitude of ~10.

2. 40k fanboys (and 40k canon in general) always ignores logistics requirements necessary to supply, feed and water a fighting force as ridiculously huge as the IoM. Sure, they have agri-worlds and forge worlds, but they never discuss how this materiel actually gets to its fighting forces. Star Wars doesn't have this problem.

3. A 40k victory depends heavily on the assumption that warp travel is possible AND reliable where this showdown is happening. While slower, Star Wars has CONSISTENT space travel speed.

On an aside, I postulated that based on void shield capacity capable of resisting novacannon shots (BFG), ship generator output (discounting engines) needs to be on the magnitude of 0.1 solar outputs / s. 40k technology uses PLASMA reactors in current CANON and "fusion" in legacy CANON. The sun is a hydrogen fusion reactor. Anti-matter / matter reactions are the most efficient known theoretical power source based on energy gained / mass of fuel. 40k outputs require efficiency upwards of at least 10^5x more, but IoM supporters just wave this off using the "superior technology" arguement. This, of course, is impossible to disprove - and since all 40k vs anything arguments ALWAYS go down this route, let's just declare 40k the winner of everything. (Few exceptions... the Culture could probably take the IoM).

 keezus wrote:
40k vs SW discussions always end up going full SIMPLE JACK. This always degenerates into who would win the space war.

Looks like you are doing that single handedly.

 Glorioski wrote:

 keezus wrote:
40k vs SW discussions always end up going full SIMPLE JACK. This always degenerates into who would win the space war.

Looks like you are doing that single handedly.

I sacrifice brain cells, so you don't have to.

Oh I see. Thank you.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
This is dumb.

Seconded!

I wanted to say I was surprised it went three pages. Then I realized it wasn't surprising, sadly.

Does he realize this was suppose to be us simply answering his questions around the idea of who would win on a 1 vs 1

Not the Imperium of Man vs the entire Jedi Order

Probably not but, as we mentioned on page 1, there's no correct answer to the question. It all depends on what forum its being posted on.

So, here on Dakka, I'm going to say "Space Marine". If you ask me over on Star Destroyer or Holocron, I'll say "Jedi".

 Psienesis wrote:
Probably not but, as we mentioned on page 1, there's no correct answer to the question. It all depends on what forum its being posted on.

So, here on Dakka, I'm going to say "Space Marine". If you ask me over on Star Destroyer or Holocron, I'll say "Jedi".

It was OT, but in the end, the intent is to demonstrate of how these discussions always end, regardless of intention, as both sides have different ideas on what constitute allowable feats. There is tons of moving the goalposts around. Any scientific breakdowns usually countered with vaguely defined feats from background... in the end, the winning side is usually the one that has more "unexplainable" abilities backed up by "magic" and/or "super high technology"

To use the SM vs Jedi example

Jedi have mind-powers. Advantage Jedi right? (This is my personal opinion actually) - however, also obviously countered by the unverifiable "Marines fight the taint of Chaos everyday" BS (suggesting Strong Minds!) and the "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded" quote from A New Hope.

SM are genetically engineered - but HOW genetically engineered? How fast? From say, the Space Marine game, they don't seem much faster than a human... would seem to be advantage Jedi right? But I'm sure there's some part of a Black Library book somewhere that would suggest that marines are super humanly fast - with some vague "drew the weapon faster than he could see" type description, or the "cleave through three orks before they could react" type hyperbole.

The argument can continue ad-nauseum considering how much expanded universe / black library gak there is to mine from. To get any sort of constructive feedback, the OP needs to more rigidly set the ground rules for debate.

Yep. Though we covered this, too. Sort of. We have Move/Black Library/Table Top/Video Game/RPG Marines vs Movie/TV Show/Comic Book/Book/Video Game/RPG Jedi. What constitutes "average" is going to be *heavily* influenced by the starting point.

If I wanted to use the Space Marine video game as an example, a Space Marine is a super-badass who is also, sometimes, occasionally killed by an exploding pig.

fething Squigs. One of them is more threatning than like 3 nobs

Jedi, 100%.

Space marine armor is not invincible. It goes down to power weapons all the time, and those are merely regular swords with disruption fields, a light sabre would go through marine armor like it wasn't even there. Furthermore, light sabres can certainly handle solid-slug ammunition. None of the space marine's shots would actually hit.

Furthermore, the WS and BS of Jedi are both insane, and they can use psychic powers without running the risk of perils of the warp.

There is literally nothing that a space marine has over a jedi other than numbers and, depending where in the SW universe you're talking about, they don't even have that.

A space marine is to a jedi asa guardsman is to a space marine.

 Ailaros wrote:
Jedi, 100%.

Space marine armor is not invincible. It goes down to power weapons all the time, and those are merely regular swords with disruption fields, a light sabre would go through marine armor like it wasn't even there. Furthermore, light sabres can certainly handle solid-slug ammunition. None of the space marine's shots would actually hit.

Furthermore, the WS and BS of Jedi are both insane, and they can use psychic powers without running the risk of perils of the warp.

There is literally nothing that a space marine has over a jedi other than numbers and, depending where in the SW universe you're talking about, they don't even have that.

A space marine is to a jedi asa guardsman is to a space marine.

Vegeta, what does the scouter say?!

Both backgrounds are too inconsistent for this comparison to be meaningful. The victor will be whoever the protagonist is in the current story.

This goes for a lot of "who wins" comparisons, but in this case it's especially apt. Sometimes Jedi can be killed one-on-one by non-Force sensitive humans, and sometimes they single-handedly destroy entire armies of battle droids. Sometimes a single Space Marine is a match for a platoon of Guardsmen, and sometimes a fire team of Guardsmen kills multiple Space Marines.

 keezus wrote:
3. A 40k victory depends heavily on the assumption that warp travel is possible AND reliable where this showdown is happening. While slower, Star Wars has CONSISTENT space travel speed.

Slower? I thought a ship like the Millenium Falcon could travel the Milky Way from one side to the other in about a week, providing you take the risk of such a long jump. They never do ofc, preferring to stay to known safe courses and coming out to recalculate every few days. And the communications - HoloNet seems to be instant while the best known 40K method, an Astropath, could cause delays of weeks or months over longer ranges. When a planet is attacked in the SW setting they call for help and can expect assistance in a matter of hours or days. 40K? Help? After holding off the enemy for a year of bloody, GrimDark battle maybe.

That is true. Hyperspace travel in SW is many, many, *many* times faster than Warp travel in 40K, and far, far safer. From any point in the SW galaxy, you are, at worst, a matter of days from any other point. In 40k, it can take months to travel within the same sub-sector.

 Galdos wrote:


- No its not that powerful. Its like every piece of armor except there is more of it and its stronger. A lightsaber will cut through it like a Plasma Weapon cuts through it.
- As a scout yes he has seen combat. Has he seen combat before being a scout? no. By the time he is a Space Marine, he has seen more combat than an average guardsman
- It kind of can. Its not going to deflect the bolt but the heat of it will actually destroy the shell.
- Yes Mandalorians would make perfect Space Marine candidates
- A Jedi can use the force to help speed their reaction times and movement ability so it is possible for a Space Marine to outmanouver a Space Marine DEPENDING on the SM's source material we are using
- The Force is endless, the mental power of a Jedi is not, he will eventually tire out if he is using it straight. However a quick breather will allow him to recover. Think of the force like oxygen, a Jedi isnt going to run out of oxygen but he may run out of breath and he will need time to catch a breather


I hope that helps

I feel bad just responding to this thread, but this is a tragedy. Have you even read the C:SM? For a man to even be selected as a candidate for inniation, he pretty much already has to excede the norm in a variety of ways. Most candidates are chosen because they display some exemplorary talent in the art of combat.

There is a line at which we divorce the rules (statistics of models/units in game) from the fluff. But per the LORE, a given Space space marine candidate is the better of a platoon of guardsman. And most of the candidates FAIL the trails and are either injured or killed at the end. Those rare few heroes who sruvive to become scouts are instantly made SUPER-HUMAN by means of genetic therapy and the implantation of the genestock and the various organs that make Space Marines what they are.

After CENTURIES of service, a typical Space Marine is to a normal man, what the Primarchs are to them... better in every conceivable way.

And I am not just spount some anti-IG hate spam. I happen to like the IG... but the fluff and lore clearly that the marines are not the neophytes you have incorrectly assumed them to be.

There is a line at which we divorce the rules (statistics of models/units in game) from the fluff. But per the LORE, a given Space space marine candidate is the better of a platoon of guardsman. And most of the candidates FAIL the trails and are either injured or killed at the end. Those rare few heroes who sruvive to become scouts are instantly made SUPER-HUMAN by means of genetic therapy and the implantation of the genestock and the various organs that make Space Marines what they are.

After CENTURIES of service, a typical Space Marine is to a normal man, what the Primarchs are to them... better in every conceivable way.

Actually, other fluff puts a trained Tac-Marine at the equivalent of 10 IG soldiers. What's that quote, "Give me a hundred Space Marines or, failing that, a thousand Guardsmen, and it shall be done" ?

Sorry to just burst in but it says 40k vs starwars, not just space marine vs jedi. But if it is about one of our grunts beating a jedi its about the weapon, not the wielder.A simple guardian would rip a jedi to shreds as soon as he pulls the trigger, unless your saying a jedi can block ''up to a hundred bladed disks in a few short seconds'', if he carnt he is torn to shreds. A necron guass flayer, since its a field and not physical, carnt be blocked and would flay the jedi.
Heck, even a guardsmen on full auto would shred a jedi, cause your jedi carnt possibly block that many shots that, by definition, MOVES AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!

En Excelsis wrote:


I feel bad just responding to this thread, but this is a tragedy. Have you even read the C:SM? For a man to even be selected as a candidate for inniation, he pretty much already has to excede the norm in a variety of ways. Most candidates are chosen because they display some exemplorary talent in the art of combat.

There is a line at which we divorce the rules (statistics of models/units in game) from the fluff. But per the LORE, a given Space space marine candidate is the better of a platoon of guardsman. And most of the candidates FAIL the trails and are either injured or killed at the end. Those rare few heroes who sruvive to become scouts are instantly made SUPER-HUMAN by means of genetic therapy and the implantation of the genestock and the various organs that make Space Marines what they are.

After CENTURIES of service, a typical Space Marine is to a normal man, what the Primarchs are to them... better in every conceivable way.

And I am not just spount some anti-IG hate spam. I happen to like the IG... but the fluff and lore clearly that the marines are not the neophytes you have incorrectly assumed them to be.

What the hell? Did you just randomly quote me without reading anything I said?

Um, and none of that changes what I said.

He asked about how much combat experience a Scout would have (basic initiate scout) A SCOUT IS NOT A COMBAT VETERAN!

Scouts, go into war and fight, scouts are selected because of how capable. However before joining a Space Marine chapter the Scout does not have combat experience under his belt. He may have fought in a few brawls in a bar or hunted animals but he has not fought in wars. He does not have combat experience when he becomes a scout.

I have no idea why you are talkign about Space Marines being better than Guardsmen or Primarchs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Sorry to just burst in but it says 40k vs starwars, not just space marine vs jedi. But if it is about one of our grunts beating a jedi its about the weapon, not the wielder.A simple guardian would rip a jedi to shreds as soon as he pulls the trigger, unless your saying a jedi can block ''up to a hundred bladed disks in a few short seconds'', if he carnt he is torn to shreds. A necron guass flayer, since its a field and not physical, carnt be blocked and would flay the jedi.
Heck, even a guardsmen on full auto would shred a jedi, cause your jedi carnt possibly block that many shots that, by definition, MOVES AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT!!!

A Guardian fires a fast shooting and accurate weapon like an Assault Rifle, he isnt firing an MP-5. His shots are going to be in a near line. IF the Jedi blocks the first shot, the next dozen are going to be blocked because they are on the same flight path, if the Guardian changes his aim it wont be a sudden shell lands over here but a stream that moves that the Jedi COULD follow.

Im not saying a Jedi will have it easy, im just saying a Jedi COULD block it.

I dont know about Necrons but we arnt talking about Necrons, we are talking about Space Marines

A Jedi can block shots fired a full auto from a Guardsman. The first time Luke uses a lightsaber he fights a combat drone he can not see and is able to block a series of shots from it when he couldnt even see it. Its because of the Force.

unless your saying a jedi can block ''up to a hundred bladed disks in a few short seconds'', if he carnt he is torn to shreds

They can. Telekinetic shields are essentially a default Jedi power, so many of them have it that it's almost a standard-issue power, if such things can be said to exist amongst Jedi.

Too much focus on the lightsaber as the blocking device. Why use that when you can make lasers and bullets simply stop ten feet away?

Scouts, go into war and fight, scouts are selected because of how capable. However before joining a Space Marine chapter the Scout does not have combat experience under his belt. He may have fought in a few brawls in a bar or hunted animals but he has not fought in wars. He does not have combat experience when he becomes a scout.

That is going to vary by Chapter but, in most cases, a Space Marine Scout, at 18 years of age, has been involved in tribal warfare and hunting dangerous beasts for a decade. If we're talking Space Wolves, that 18 year old Scout probably has a few wives, a half-dozen kids, and has killed a dozen men with his bare hands.

Now killing a man in a brawl and hunting is not the same as military combat experience.

Tribal warfare is closer so thanks there. However the mass majority, ie. the Average Scout does not have combat experience. He has some fighting experience maybe but not combat

 Psienesis wrote:
That is true. Hyperspace travel in SW is many, many, *many* times faster than Warp travel in 40K, and far, far safer. From any point in the SW galaxy, you are, at worst, a matter of days from any other point. In 40k, it can take months to travel within the same sub-sector.

To nit-pick, it's not that hyperspace is faster, it's just more reliable.

It is impossible to accurately predict how long it will take to travel through the warp to your destination. It may take months, years even to arrive, sure. It can also take a few days or hours. There have even been ships that have arrived at their destination before they even left.

The warp makes a mockery of time in general, it's not an automatic "Oh yeah, it will take between 2-3 months to reach Segmentum Solar".

While time-dilation effects do happen, there's a general "average" of time between points in the Warp, and life aboard warp-traveling vessels is generally a lengthy period. This is provided in a number of sources, most notably the Gaunt's Ghosts novels that have the Sabbat Crusade fleets spending weeks or months moving through the Warp between the various planets that the IG will be deployed on, and this is within a single sub-sector. In contrast, hyperspace travel in SW is based entirely on the type of Hyperspace Drive the ship is equipped with and, barring unforeseen incident, the travel-time between two systems is a known factor, and is only in extreme circumstances more than a few days.

Ya Psienesis is right about the Hyperspace thing

To really solve this debate you have to have something to compare between the to settings and the real world, like the very foolish thing Star trek did were it gave the actual power rating dispersion numbers of the shields in real world energy measurements. Then Star wars fans could used the scene of a Star Destroyer using a turbo laser to destroy an asteroid of known size and assumes average composition to figurer out the power output of the laser to prove it could overwhelm typical Galaxy class ship shielding.

I think the point is missed that *both* combatants take a considerable risk in melee combat -- a lightsaber may be able to do some serious damage very quickly, but a single hit from a space marine would seriously ruin a Jedi's day.

But the thing is Jedi can do a little thing called "mind trick" and as soon as SM says "AVE", his balls are in the force grip....

 DarthMarko wrote:
But the thing is Jedi can do a little thing called "mind trick" and as soon as SM says "AVE", his balls are in the force grip....

Space marines seem to be pretty damned strong of will, so I feel like it would take a fairly exceptional Jedi to be able to mind-trick one in a pinch.

 DarthMarko wrote:
But the thing is Jedi can do a little thing called "mind trick" and as soon as SM says "AVE", his balls are in the force grip....

Lol - do they even have balls?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
If we're talking Space Wolves, that 18 year old Scout probably has a few wives, a half-dozen kids, and has killed a dozen men with his bare hands.

Space wolves initiates are blood claws. The rest is more than likely bang on though ...

Wolf scouts are elites that can't function as part of a pack, or just plain don't fit in. Or just like being on their own etc...