Disdainful, same name here as on c&c, wrote up an article on capture and control explaining the 4 easy steps to fixing GW.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

It is a longer than normal article so I don't want to just cut and paste it in, plus there are quite a few pictures! For those who don't like clicking links that take you out of dakka here is a summary.

1. Fix the pricing. Dis argues that you don't need an across the board price drop, but there are some price fixes that are absolutely necessary.
2. Support organized play. Not just a rt and gt format from GW themselves but 4 times a year well supported campaigns. All similar to how PP runs things.
3. Create relevant and timely FAQ and errata. This is painfully needed.
4. Bring back GW run forums. In order to facilitate an actual relationship with the community that isn't hostile and also supports the creation of the FAQs and Errata a GW run forum really is necessary. It would also help aid in the campaigns and tournament formatting etc.

These are just basic points so I would suggest reading the whole article to get all of Dis' finer points. I wanted to post this here to get feedback from the dakka community specifically since not everyone here reads c&c regularly. This is not a ploy for page views. We make no money off of capture and control, it is purely a project of love for the hobby from those of us who post there. So what do you think?

I don't think they will ever bring back their forum. It would just be a horrific troll target and anything meaningful will be drowned out. Plus GW will not want the headache of moderating (meaning deleting 95% of the posts that are outright trolling or posting something GW doesn't like).

I imagine they have people who read the larger forums and sites in their spare time anyway.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I imagine they have people who read the larger forums and sites in their spare time anyway.

They do. At a recent studio Q&A session, they were asked about it (particularly balance discussions on message boards) and they even refereed to one Warseer user by his screen name. So they do read boards.

I mean, with over a year to write a codex, they've got to be doing something with the amount of spare time they'd have.

Really well written piece, I also enjoyed the linked article written by the OP.

There will come a tipping point with the current path they are on. How they handle it will be very interesting to follow.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't think they will ever bring back their forum. It would just be a horrific troll target and anything meaningful will be drowned out. Plus GW will not want the headache of moderating (meaning deleting 95% of the posts that are outright trolling or posting something GW doesn't like).

I imagine they have people who read the larger forums and sites in their spare time anyway.

I'm sure they do, but that's not nearly as good as actually *responding* to the community and the official forum can give a controlled outlet for responding to the community.

It'd be interesting to see how an official GW forum would go these days, I feel like there's a lot more GW hate now than there was back when they used to have their forums open, back then I was surprised they closed their forums because they didn't seem too bad to me.

They have an outlet in terms of their social media accounts as well as their blog/news posts on their site.

And given how full my feed is with GW/FW updates, they have no problem using them.

I have said this before but here goes:

GW will never have an Online forum/community manager because that would mean they were willing to listen to expressed concerns and act upon them in some meaningful away. The moment you publicize an open forum where this community representative will manage and promote discussion that NEW customers can be directed to, you are giving up some measure of the control on how the customer perceives the hobby.

That's not to say GW does not care, but its that they are not willing to give up any sort of brand image that gives anyone the impression it's not the land of rainbows and sunshine user level. I am still surprised they have Facebook pages (albeit heavily supervised for posted content).

GW didhave an Outreach Manager but she left in October.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
They have an outlet in terms of their social media accounts as well as their blog/news posts on their site.

And given how full my feed is with GW/FW updates, they have no problem using them.

Except they don't actually use those outlets to respond to the community and/or address problems the community might have, rather they just ignore problems.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
They have an outlet in terms of their social media accounts as well as their blog/news posts on their site.

And given how full my feed is with GW/FW updates, they have no problem using them.

Except they don't actually use those outlets to respond to the community and/or address problems the community might have, rather they just ignore problems.

Not everything the community raises as a "problem" is worth responding to, or it might have been responded to at some point before.

Take a look at the BioWare forums for Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer to see how this works in regards to the reason why it is best for a company to ignore problems or address them privately when possible. As soon as a developer responds to a post about a specific problem, threads demanding the same attention for some perceived issue immediately crop up and posters get progressively more agitated as people feel that they are somehow being slighted because their problem is being "ignored".

 Kanluwen wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
They have an outlet in terms of their social media accounts as well as their blog/news posts on their site.

And given how full my feed is with GW/FW updates, they have no problem using them.

Except they don't actually use those outlets to respond to the community and/or address problems the community might have, rather they just ignore problems.

Not everything the community raises as a "problem" is worth responding to, or it might have been responded to at some point before.

Take a look at the BioWare forums for Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer to see how this works in regards to the reason why it is best for a company to ignore problems or address them privately when possible. As soon as a developer responds to a post about a specific problem, threads demanding the same attention for some perceived issue immediately crop up and posters get progressively more agitated as people feel that they are somehow being slighted because their problem is being "ignored".

You raise an important point there. Perhaps the best thing to do in either case is not release/do what most people regard as a 'stinker'? Regardless of whether you are talking about a product, a too high price for it, or an unhappy ending.

Compare the amount of complaint threads on something like the company-run forums of Infinity, Mantic or FoW - there are very few, but in each case when they have existed there has usually been a reason for it. It's all to easy to claim that you haven't got any problems, the people complaining would all be doing so regardless, putting fingers in their ears and yelling 'lalalala' while at the same time isolating yourself from any meaningful feedback, and continuing in a poor direction.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Disdainful, same name here as on c&c, wrote up an article on capture and control explaining the 4 easy steps to fixing GW.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

It is a longer than normal article so I don't want to just cut and paste it in, plus there are quite a few pictures! For those who don't like clicking links that take you out of dakka here is a summary.

1. Fix the pricing. Dis argues that you don't need an across the board price drop, but there are some price fixes that are absolutely necessary.
2. Support organized play. Not just a rt and gt format from GW themselves but 4 times a year well supported campaigns. All similar to how PP runs things.
3. Create relevant and timely FAQ and errata. This is painfully needed.
4. Bring back GW run forums. In order to facilitate an actual relationship with the community that isn't hostile and also supports the creation of the FAQs and Errata a GW run forum really is necessary. It would also help aid in the campaigns and tournament formatting etc.

These are just basic points so I would suggest reading the whole article to get all of Dis' finer points. I wanted to post this here to get feedback from the dakka community specifically since not everyone here reads c&c regularly. This is not a ploy for page views. We make no money off of capture and control, it is purely a project of love for the hobby from those of us who post there. So what do you think?

Sadly this will never happen. 4 quick answers to why hehe..

1. Can't lower prices, when price increase is the only thing that still makes them profitable :(
2. Can't suport organized play when you have such an Unbalanced game. And when the company plan is to make it Unbalanced so they can sell more armies. We have to understand that its not hard to make a game somewhat balanced. But GW has for the last decade gone out of thier way, trying to boost new armies. In a FAIL atempt at trying to make people buy new armies. The Unbalance in GW games is intended, becuase that is what has sold new armies in the past. PP has gone the other way, they release things for all armies instead, so they dont have to creep to make people buy new stuff.
3. This is not in GWs best inerest to do this. Because then people might play with thier old armies and wont buy new once. And GWs main strategi is trying to force people to buy new armies to stay competetive....
4. When you have a bad attitude against your customers. And treat them like they have low IQ. And that they dont understand that GW is just in it for the CASH these days. Running thier own forum will, like it did last time turn into a disaster for them... so no it wont happen.. There will always be negative posts on a forum, But other minitature gaming companies, that actually try to suport OLDER players (and not little kidds with mommys Credjt Card), and make a balanced game do not have any problems running thier own forums..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarain wrote:
Really well written piece, I also enjoyed the linked article written by the OP.

There will come a tipping point with the current path they are on. How they handle it will be very interesting to follow.

I have also pointed out that the tipping point is coming. I feel that we are at the start of it now. Most of the people I play with, around 12-15 people have switch games. Most of the stores i buy stuff from say that they have seen a decline in GW products. Sadly I think GW will slowly sink like the Taitanic.. They think they have an unsinkable ship.. so they are slowly going down with it. lucky for me I got in a lifeboat in time...

1. The real rate of inflation is currently @ 10%, and has been for a number of years. If you want GW to cut prices start by voting for politicans that don't lie to you and fuel the buy it now, go bankrupt later economy.

2. I don't necessarily disagree with the organised play idea - not tournaments - where my disagreement comes is that GW encourage players to do it themselves, yet for whatever reason players take the path of least resistance. To mis-quote John Locke, GW want the players to take liberty, but they prefer licence.

3. Meh, I'm not that bothered, heck sometimes these things actually lead to conversation.

4. GW wisely got out of forums.

 marielle wrote:
1. The real rate of inflation is currently @ 10%, and has been for a number of years. If you want GW to cut prices start by voting for politicans that don't lie to you and fuel the buy it now, go bankrupt later economy.

2. I don't necessarily disagree with the organised play idea - not tournaments - where my disagreement comes is that GW encourage players to do it themselves, yet for whatever reason players take the path of least resistance. To mis-quote John Locke, GW want the players to take liberty, but they prefer licence.

3. Meh, I'm not that bothered, heck sometimes these things actually lead to conversation.

4. GW wisely got out of forums.

This translates to: "GW can do no wrong so its all basically the fault of their customers and the economy"!

That kool-aid sure must be tasty!

1. Plausible on certain items, but some are sitting just right at the moment

2. A good possibility, except they want players to just do that themselves...and the game is not really balanced enough to make a massive campaign fair.

.3 Their FAQ/Errata are now very timely, but they do miss some important questions...so really this just needs tuning up.

4. Forums for GW are a terrible idea....(anyone who watched the last season of the Guild will know why). It would consist of nothing but people flaming/trolling GW and otherwise criticizing everything they do, without being constructive.

On the whole though...well reasoned and well put article.

1. Stop selling miniatures.

2. Start selling booze.

3. Move HQ from Nottingham to Vegas.

4. Replace the gaming tables with pole dancers.

These simple steps would reinvigorate the hobby and bring new life to their waning products.

PhantomViper wrote:

 marielle wrote:
1. The real rate of inflation is currently @ 10%, and has been for a number of years. If you want GW to cut prices start by voting for politicans that don't lie to you and fuel the buy it now, go bankrupt later economy.

2. I don't necessarily disagree with the organised play idea - not tournaments - where my disagreement comes is that GW encourage players to do it themselves, yet for whatever reason players take the path of least resistance. To mis-quote John Locke, GW want the players to take liberty, but they prefer licence.

3. Meh, I'm not that bothered, heck sometimes these things actually lead to conversation.

4. GW wisely got out of forums.

This translates to: "GW can do no wrong so its all basically the fault of their customers and the economy"!

That kool-aid sure must be tasty!

Nope, It's about not believing in interwebz groupthink and think for yourself.

But thank you for confirming my point 4.

 marielle wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 marielle wrote:
1. The real rate of inflation is currently @ 10%, and has been for a number of years. If you want GW to cut prices start by voting for politicans that don't lie to you and fuel the buy it now, go bankrupt later economy.

2. I don't necessarily disagree with the organised play idea - not tournaments - where my disagreement comes is that GW encourage players to do it themselves, yet for whatever reason players take the path of least resistance. To mis-quote John Locke, GW want the players to take liberty, but they prefer licence.

3. Meh, I'm not that bothered, heck sometimes these things actually lead to conversation.

4. GW wisely got out of forums.

This translates to: "GW can do no wrong so its all basically the fault of their customers and the economy"!

That kool-aid sure must be tasty!

Nope, It's about not believing in interwebz groupthink and think for yourself.

But thank you for confirming my point 4.

Good show old chap!

PhantomViper wrote:

This translates to: "GW can do no wrong so its all basically the fault of their customers and the economy"!

That kool-aid sure must be tasty!

We can do without comments like this.

Thanks

(price decreases are) Plausible on certain items, but some are sitting just right at the moment

Like what?
I can't think of a single item in the GW catalog that is in keeping with industry norm on pricing.

Anyway, interesting article.

GW will never bring back a forum as they simply cannot stand any form of criticism. Remember this is the same company that had a senior staffer insult a customer who was being critical of GW's prices at a Q&A telling him that he was "in the wrong hobby".
I'm old enough to remember the old forums. They were a useless place mostly inhabited by drooling fanboys and young kids. It was good for an occasional laugh at best. This was in no small part due to the fact they agressively removed any post that was even remotely critical. ( I was banned within just a few days of registration, and I was making a serious effort to "play nice") The end result was that the vast majority of the content resembled the old "letters page" that White Dwarf once featured with all the contrived drivel gushing with praise. More importantly the 4channer kiddies of today, make up a sizable percentage of the GW game playing community and without agressive moderation any official forum would quickly turn into a cess pool. So I seriously doubt GW would want the hassle of maintaining a forum in today's enviorment.

TR

 marielle wrote:
1. The real rate of inflation is currently @ 10%, and has been for a number of years. If you want GW to cut prices start by voting for politicans that don't lie to you and fuel the buy it now, go bankrupt later economy.

I'm not sure where you gathered this information, but annual inflation is at 3%, and has been so for just about ever. It hovered at 5% during the height of the great recession for about 3 months, but then came back down to 3, where it's all but stayed.

2. I don't necessarily disagree with the organized play idea - not tournaments - where my disagreement comes is that GW encourage players to do it themselves, yet for whatever reason players take the path of least resistance. To mis-quote John Locke, GW want the players to take liberty, but they prefer license.

False Dichotomy. What's to stop GW from having organized tournaments, and players also having player organized tournaments? GW also has the capital needed to make these events happen, but they don't see their value, which is very odd.

3. Meh, I'm not that bothered, heck sometimes these things actually lead to conversation.

Conversation? really? You just said that? I want to conversate on the great game we just had, not rule monger, and be mad for over a year because my army I've had for 20 years is getting beat off the table by an obvious broken rule!

4. GW wisely got out of forums.

Because they unwisely ran them. To be a leader in past time like this and not have a forum with your customers is obtuse to say the least. Every other game system has a forum, allowing it's players a window into the company, and a conversation about it's direction.

Nucflash wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Really well written piece, I also enjoyed the linked article written by the OP.

There will come a tipping point with the current path they are on. How they handle it will be very interesting to follow.

I have also pointed out that the tipping point is coming. I feel that we are at the start of it now. Most of the people I play with, around 12-15 people have switch games. Most of the stores i buy stuff from say that they have seen a decline in GW products. Sadly I think GW will slowly sink like the Taitanic.. They think they have an unsinkable ship.. so they are slowly going down with it. lucky for me I got in a lifeboat in time...

My buddy and I just went over the tipping point. A trip to the LGS (about an hour away) did it for us. We went to look at 40k stuff. Then we saw Warmachine, and the prices of both. Then we saw the game tables, only things being played (besides cards) was Warmachine & Hordes. Looking at the rules and forums online and seeing the balance of the game...we were sold. Both of us are PP converts. We both like the GW minis and fluff, but the junk rules and crazy prices are just too much. My wife is going to start WM with us as well. Thats 3 more customers gone from GW.

 MisterMoon wrote:

 marielle wrote:
1. The real rate of inflation is currently @ 10%, and has been for a number of years. If you want GW to cut prices start by voting for politicans that don't lie to you and fuel the buy it now, go bankrupt later economy.

I'm not sure where you gathered this information, but annual inflation is at 3%, and has been so for just about ever. It hovered at 5% during the height of the great recession for about 3 months, but then came back down to 3, where it's all but stayed.

2. I don't necessarily disagree with the organized play idea - not tournaments - where my disagreement comes is that GW encourage players to do it themselves, yet for whatever reason players take the path of least resistance. To mis-quote John Locke, GW want the players to take liberty, but they prefer license.

False Dichotomy. What's to stop GW from having organized tournaments, and players also having player organized tournaments? GW also has the capital needed to make these events happen, but they don't see their value, which is very odd.

3. Meh, I'm not that bothered, heck sometimes these things actually lead to conversation.

Conversation? really? You just said that? I want to conversate on the great game we just had, not rule monger, and be mad for over a year because my army I've had for 20 years is getting beat off the table by an obvious broken rule!

4. GW wisely got out of forums.

Because they unwisely ran them. To be a leader in past time like this and not have a forum with your customers is obtuse to say the least. Every other game system has a forum, allowing it's players a window into the company, and a conversation about it's direction.

1. Indeed, but the official inflation rate is fudged.

2. I'm not sure where you get the idea that GW does not organise tournaments,

3. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your hobby.

4. GW has plenty of avenues to communicate with it's customers, all of them my useful than the possible feedback they would receive through an 'official forum'. And why would they bother with the hassle, and potential loss of sales, when they can get all the information they need by reading the numerous forums that already exist?

They still are the biggest company in the world, and still probably the biggest by far. I'd like to see statistics for non-western countries with emerging markets like China, Singapore, India, Russia etc. Even other European countries such as Italy or Greece or Poland - what games are played there? I think that because GW have so many armies and factions there will be something for everyone (I'm not saying the miniatures are better, just that there's a lot of them - you've got guys in power armour, Elves fighting alongside trees, Orcs fighting Renaissance Germans or Gestapo-like future warriors, the average human in stereotypical power armour etc). And I doubt very much that many of you started wargaming because you thought the rules were solid - you probably started due to the models! When I first saw WM being sold in a shop, I thought to myself "Now, does anyone actually play this?"

But there certainly is a few things that GW could definitely do, and I agree with the guys points. Just a quick question: what's wrong with Throne of Skulls?

1. Alter pricing

We're not going to see big falls, GW sells themselves as a premium product (we can disagree on this), but there may be room to change some (and perhaps not increase the costs of older stuff above the actual increase in production/distribution costs.

If finecast is being phased out as some rumours suggest this may help (I suspect the improvements in what we see in store means they're rejecting more of the casts increasing costs to them.... It's also percieved (by some) as an inferior material and getting rid of it will help

2. Possible,

however GW has said their game is NOT intended for tournament play.

A better idea might be for them to run 'turn up and have fun' events, no prizes for winning, no official winner, but prizes for painting/converting/most popular opponant, somewhere for fans to gather and apreciate the game GW says it produces, not somewhere for competative trounament players

3. They actually seem to be doing pretty well for FAQ speed, and not bad for content.

Yes they may be able to improve in places (a bit kore updating of old codexes would help), but at least some calls for FAQs are from bloody minded gamers desperatly wanting the rules not to say what they clearly do

4. Bring back GW forums,

I'd say unlikely, and probably pointless, there are plently of unofficial, but very active forums for those that want them, and GW can "listen in" to those (and apparently do). All their own forums would do is provide space for fan boys to fight with haters (and precious little for everything else)

1. Indeed, but the official inflation rate is fudged.

The rate of inflation being at 3% is independently researched and peer-reviewed, and is relied on by all industries (including GW). So contrary to what you hear on AM radio, it's academically proven to be at 3%. No one but gold peddling far right loonies are saying that the inflation rate is at 10%.

2. I'm not sure where you get the idea that GW does not organize tournaments.

Their support for tournaments is a shadow of it's former self. I'm not sure if you're paying attention.

3. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your hobby.

Because I want timely updates, and not have to wait forever? How about I evaluate that company's competition, which I did, and non-GW companies are getting more of my gaming dollar than ever before.

4. GW has plenty of avenues to communicate with it's customers, all of them my useful than the possible feedback they would receive through an 'official forum'. And why would they bother with the hassle, and potential loss of sales, when they can get all the information they need by reading the numerous forums that already exist?

What about the avenue for me to communicate with them in a matter of my choosing since I am the customer? My thoughts are echoed through out the gaming community. Instead of allowing proper two way communication, they'd rather just snoop in on other forums and read it? That's poor communication imo. PP, and others have realized that we are, indeed, in the 21st century, and have used internet forums as a means to provide modern communication. If done right a forum would only perfect the product, as other gaming companies (all of them in fact) have found out. The link provided by the OP, if you even read it, provides good explanation on it's benefit.

Didn't we just have a thread where uninformed wishlisting on how to fix GW was done?

So we have:
1. Lose money through price cuts.
2. Waste money running organized play which is already being done 'for free' by indy TOs.
3. Waste More Money as FAQ updates are 'fine' and the issue is people want free rules.
4. Waste time and money, The target audience speaks with their wallet. The angry non-customers want an avenue they don't deserve.

5. ????

6. Profit?

Yeah, this is a good thread.

looking at No1. Fixing pricing.

Without drastically changing and challenging their current model. GW would not lower prices or change their pricing schedule.

There will be a time, it's already happening, where high pricing cannot contribute enough against falling levels of sales to maintain current expectation amongst shareholders.

There is also no guarantee that lowering prices will bring in enough new sales to even maintain existing levels of profit.

One of the only ways we could see a lowering of prices is if GW dump their own B&M stores. But i would only see this happening if customers really fall off and Gw in its current form woul use this as an excuse to boost short term profits.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't think they will ever bring back their forum. It would just be a horrific troll target and anything meaningful will be drowned out. Plus GW will not want the headache of moderating (meaning deleting 95% of the posts that are outright trolling or posting something GW doesn't like).

I imagine they have people who read the larger forums and sites in their spare time anyway.

Easy as pie to fix; hand out 20 cards that grant 20% off in stores, holders of those cards have to moderate the forums. Nerds will be stabbing each other in the neck to delete trollposts

 Kanluwen wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
They have an outlet in terms of their social media accounts as well as their blog/news posts on their site.

And given how full my feed is with GW/FW updates, they have no problem using them.

Except they don't actually use those outlets to respond to the community and/or address problems the community might have, rather they just ignore problems.

Not everything the community raises as a "problem" is worth responding to, or it might have been responded to at some point before.

Take a look at the BioWare forums for Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer to see how this works in regards to the reason why it is best for a company to ignore problems or address them privately when possible. As soon as a developer responds to a post about a specific problem, threads demanding the same attention for some perceived issue immediately crop up and posters get progressively more agitated as people feel that they are somehow being slighted because their problem is being "ignored".

Communication is definitely an art. Since you used the example of a video game and I have no idea about ME3 coz I've never played it, I'll say that CDProjekt did a very good job of responding to community problems both privately and publicly through their blog. Relic with Space Marine started off well with addressing problems, but I think once they realised that the problems were actually bad and they couldn't fix them easily, they just started ignoring the community and that made things worse (I think Relic had the problem of being under the failing THQ).

I don't think GW should start a forum in order to start trying to deal with posts about pricing and stuff like that. But IMO they could benefit from some actual community feedback on choices they make and unofficial clarification of rules and things.

Personally, I know when the official GW forum closed I spent far less time thinking about GW products and spent far less time on their website, which in turn probably resulted in me buying less products.

1. Stop letting desire for short term profits lead game and miniature design

2. Freeze prices for at least two years.

3. Release new supported specialist games - just imagine the box sets they could do for teams/gangs/warbands these days and tell me they wouldn't fly off the shelves

4. Take a good hard look at the art direction for current miniature designs

nkelsch wrote:
Didn't we just have a thread where uninformed wishlisting on how to fix GW was done?

So we have:
1. Lose money through price cuts.
2. Waste money running organized play which is already being done 'for free' by indy TOs.
3. Waste More Money as FAQ updates are 'fine' and the issue is people want free rules.
4. Waste time and money, The target audience speaks with their wallet. The angry non-customers want an avenue they don't deserve.

5. ????

6. Profit?

Yeah, this is a good thread.

Why are you so definitively certain about all of this?

 MisterMoon wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Didn't we just have a thread where uninformed wishlisting on how to fix GW was done?

So we have:
1. Lose money through price cuts.
2. Waste money running organized play which is already being done 'for free' by indy TOs.
3. Waste More Money as FAQ updates are 'fine' and the issue is people want free rules.
4. Waste time and money, The target audience speaks with their wallet. The angry non-customers want an avenue they don't deserve.

5. ????

6. Profit?

Yeah, this is a good thread.

Why are you so definitively certain about all of this?

This.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505410.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flashman wrote:

3. Release new supported specialist games - just imagine the box sets they could do for teams/gangs/warbands these days and tell me they wouldn't fly off the shelves

Unless GW have a major overhaul they are just too inefficient.

They can barely keep up with having two core properties and a multi year licence to update.

I suspect that one of the reason Specialist games got specialist treatment is that they were just too intensive to keep going with very little reward.

Everyone who wants price reductions or price freezes needs to realize that GW is in a spiral when it comes to revenue. Their previous year's price increase means that less people are buying less, so if they don't increase prices, their total revenue will fall. They're stuck and have to keep increasing prices.

You can't fix GW by keeping the same customer experience and charging less. If you want to fix it, you need to reevaluate everything from the ground up and have the new approach bring in money that would allow you to not have to increase prices. Just freezing or decreasing prices without first addressing the underlying reason for the price increases would destroy GW.

And addressing the underlying problems might take years of having to keep going with the current price hikes until real volume growth makes not increasing prices possible again.

I don't think it is that simple. Yes, they are currently structured on price increase. But! If the other determinants of demand outside of just price change, they could probably get away with price reductions.

Of course, that's a rather more complicated answer than just 'charge less, buy more' since the determinants of demand are more complicated in themselves.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
They still are the biggest company in the world, and still probably the biggest by far. I'd like to see statistics for non-western countries with emerging markets like China, Singapore, India, Russia etc. Even other European countries such as Italy or Greece or Poland - what games are played there? I think that because GW have so many armies and factions there will be something for everyone (I'm not saying the miniatures are better, just that there's a lot of them - you've got guys in power armour, Elves fighting alongside trees, Orcs fighting Renaissance Germans or Gestapo-like future warriors, the average human in stereotypical power armour etc). And I doubt very much that many of you started wargaming because you thought the rules were solid - you probably started due to the models! When I first saw WM being sold in a shop, I thought to myself "Now, does anyone actually play this?"

But there certainly is a few things that GW could definitely do, and I agree with the guys points. Just a quick question: what's wrong with Throne of Skulls?

I underlined this misconception. GW DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT HAVE MANY ARMIES TO PLAY. 5-6 year old codexes or codexes that were made for a previous edition of the game. IS NOT A PLAYABLE ARMY if you want to stay competetive. And Some Old codexes are so broken that they will be sure to get NERFED the next time they get a codex in 4-5 years...

FACT.. Privateer Released new CODEXES for all their FACTION in ONE YEAR... Their new releases has something for ALL FACTIONS, Warmachine or HORDES.. Privateer have Balanced rules, that you can play competetive with. We use Death clocks just like Chess when we play steamroller rules. It's highly competetive and fun.

The worst thing about GWs 40k/fantasy is that you really dont have to think, you can now mesure everything "yawn" and shoot 72 inches.. there are no rules if you get attacked in the back "you just turn around". And things like Jaws of the world wolf are just broken. The lack of needing any skills to win fantasy/40k is what really breaks the game for me. I used to play chess competetivly, and in warmachine we keep track of wins/losses on our scoreboard, and I have about 80% win ratio playing regulary against 15 diffrent people. GW on the other hand is just luck based garbage.. and as i said you cant hold offical tournaments when the gaming rules are BROKEN... competetive players wont show up to play Unbalanced crap..

And to answer your questions, I started playing Table top games when i was about 14.. back in the 80s. I have never liked games workshop, because the rules have always sucked balls. But I was forced to play it because my other friends did. I stoped playing when I was about 16.. and came back to the hobby again in 2010.. Stupid friends still wanted to play 40k/fantasy OFC. But lucky for me they wernt little kidds anymore and soon I had everyone onboard about how broken GW games are. Then I Found Warmachine.. the HOLY -edited by insaniak/ Please do not circumvent the language filter - GRAIL of table top gaming. And it took about 2 games and then everyone switched over, and we havent turned back. That is how good Warmachine/hords is compared to GW.. You play it a few times and you cant really play 40k/fantasy again, because the game mechanic in GWs games are for dummies.
Lucky for those with a brain there are other good games coming out Like malifaux. Its about time for everyone to get into the 21st century, GW is a hasbeen company that only. survives because of nostalgia. They treat us older players like crap, they spend their time making lawsuits against fly sized companies, when they could be spending their money making balanced rules instead. Finecast is a joke... Codex updates are slower then New Edtion updates of the core rules LOLZ.. the list goes on and on.. Time to get off the Titanic people before you go down with the ship...

I

 Flashman wrote:


2. Freeze prices for at least two years.

That really wouldnt matter much. The average persons wages arent growing to the point where $75 will mean significantly less in 2 years than it does now.

Lets be honest here...we arent talking about $5 or so making a huge difference...especially considering the average online discount will reduce most products by at least that amount. The problem is people are cringing at even the discounted prices, which average around 20% less than retail. GW would need at least a 25-30% cut in prices, but that only deals with the price issue, which is not GWs only problem.

The next big problem is hardest for the fans to admit...and thats the fact that the game sucks. Its terrible. GW is sitting on a great fluff set, some great minis and models, but the game lets it down. If you get down to it many of the current players tolerate the terrible rules because of the fluff and minis. The only people who actually like the current rules are WAAC gamers, who take full advantage of the power creep with every new army release.

The game itself was the final thing to push me away. I was ready to drop a big chunk of money on a new Tau army, rulebook, codex, etc. However anytime I got to reading any threads about how the game worked it left me saying to myself "wow, I really dont want to play this game". I like the minis, but the rules are such a huge turn-off. The crazy prices just sealed the deal.

The best way to save GW is this:

Keep the fluff, the majority of the mini line, get rid if Finecast, then scrap the rest of it all. Completely new rules. Not a small change, not a marginal change, completely new rules. Next would be to reduce pricing by 25% or so, and keep it there for a while. Sadly that would require GW to show losses to its shareholders for a year or two as they restructured almost the whole company, so we know it wont happen.

GW is going to ride its current model until its obviously gone over the cliff and stockholders start jumping ship. Then someone will grab it all up and sell the IP, hopefully to someone who can do it justice, since the current GW isnt.

Until that day Ill be playing Warmachine, Blackwater Gulch, and a few other games....

 agustin wrote:
Everyone who wants price reductions or price freezes needs to realize that GW is in a spiral when it comes to revenue. Their previous year's price increase means that less people are buying less, so if they don't increase prices, their total revenue will fall. They're stuck and have to keep increasing prices.

That's not true, or at best only true to an extent. Long running successful businesses do it by making the customer happy and offering a service that consumers feel is worth or exceeds the actual price. If your sales are already falling because customers don't see the worth in your product, raising prices only kills them off faster. The idea you have to make as much off each sale is a poor business practice and you should instead be focusing on making as much per sale while ensuring the customer returns for future sales. There's a lot of things wrong with GW that might get consumers to abandon them and go elsewhere, price gouging the few that remain is not the way to equalise profits unless you very rapidly want to get rid of the remaining customers as well.

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Until that day Ill be playing Warmachine,

Which has the same premium pricing model as GW and bases their prices and raises them to be on par with GW's individual models and boxed sets.

nkelsch wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Until that day Ill be playing Warmachine,

Which has the same premium pricing model as GW and bases their prices and raises them to be on par with GW's individual models and boxed sets.

but is cheaper since games aren't as big and numbers aren't that numerous

nkelsch wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Until that day Ill be playing Warmachine,

Which has the same premium pricing model as GW and bases their prices and raises them to be on par with GW's individual models and boxed sets.

I have yet to see a $60 40mm model from Privateer.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Until that day Ill be playing Warmachine,

Which has the same premium pricing model as GW and bases their prices and raises them to be on par with GW's individual models and boxed sets.

but is cheaper since games aren't as big and numbers aren't that numerous

So if a game uses 3 models per side, each one can be 95$ because individual model prices can't be compared to models of similar size, material and sculpting?

PP has some models which are the same as their 40k counterparts, some more expensive, some less expensive. They have 40-50$ single models and 50-60$ boxes which is 'expensive' when compared to other manufacturers. PP is a 'premium' product which knowingly prices their models for what the market can bear... and they see people will pay these prices not just in GW's realm but in PP's realm too.

Smaller games doesn't make individual models cheaper... that is a delusional state people who own 7 armies and are addicted to models claim.

nkelsch wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Until that day Ill be playing Warmachine,

Which has the same premium pricing model as GW and bases their prices and raises them to be on par with GW's individual models and boxed sets.

but is cheaper since games aren't as big and numbers aren't that numerous

So if a game uses 3 models per side, each one can be 95$ because individual model prices can't be compared to models of similar size, material and sculpting?

PP has some models which are the same as their 40k counterparts, some more expensive, some less expensive. They have 40-50$ single models and 50-60$ boxes which is 'expensive' when compared to other manufacturers. PP is a 'premium' product which knowingly prices their models for what the market can bear... and they see people will pay these prices not just in GW's realm but in PP's realm too.

Smaller games doesn't make individual models cheaper... that is a delusional state people who own 7 armies and are addicted to models claim.

If you do your reserch.. you can buy a highly competetive 35pts army alot cheaper for warmachine. My second army in warmachine is Menoth for example.. I have a highly competetive list, because when I bought it a few weeks back I knew with over 2 years experince exacly what i wanted in the army. If you are happy running the same list or need to know your list in and out for example we play steamroller with deathclock timers. And when you do this you have to be an expert on your list, to save time... and not lose.
So I would argue that Warmachine/hordes from PP is alot cheaper then 40k/WHFB, if you want it to be. Because making a highly competetive list do not require more miniatures, just the correct modells that you plan on using...

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
GW didhave an Outreach Manager but she left in October.

Are you referring to Megan Lochte? I think she was gone in August, after everything that happened and all that.

Nucflash wrote:


If you do your reserch.. you can buy a highly competetive 35pts army alot cheaper for warmachine. My second army in warmachine is Menoth for example.. I have a highly competetive list, because when I bought it a few weeks back I knew with over 2 years experince exacly what i wanted in the army. If you are happy running the same list or need to know your list in and out for example we play steamroller with deathclock timers. And when you do this you have to be an expert on your list, to save time... and not lose.
So I would argue that Warmachine/hordes from PP is alot cheaper then 40k/WHFB, if you want it to be. Because making a highly competetive list do not require more miniatures, just the correct modells that you plan on using...

And how does that make a large 50$ figure cheaper than another large 50$ figure? How does it make a box of 5-6 infantry models for 50$ cheaper than another box of 5-6 infantry models for 50$?

Regardless of how much you spend overall, PP makes Premium priced individual models and units which are on par with GW prices in many situations. Only needing 3 models to play a game doesn't justify 100$ price tag per model when other companies can make a similar model for 10$. Per Model pricing is always a valid comparison, regardless if the game requires 200 models or 10 as a lot of customers only collect models and never play the games.

nkelsch wrote:


So if a game uses 3 models per side, each one can be 95$ because individual model prices can't be compared to models of similar size, material and sculpting?

PP has some models which are the same as their 40k counterparts, some more expensive, some less expensive. They have 40-50$ single models and 50-60$ boxes which is 'expensive' when compared to other manufacturers. PP is a 'premium' product which knowingly prices their models for what the market can bear... and they see people will pay these prices not just in GW's realm but in PP's realm too.

Smaller games doesn't make individual models cheaper... that is a delusional state people who own 7 armies and are addicted to models claim.

This is absolutely true, and as much as anti-GW and/or pro-PP people try to argue, PP is an equally expensive game, if not more so, when you consider how much you actually pay for a smaller amount of models. I was seriously considering starting WM about a year ago because a friend tried to get me into it, but as I looked into it, I was standing to drop around $200 on around 15 models. Sorry, but as high as GW's prices are, I can get anywhere from 1000-1500 points on a 40k army with $200 buying at an online retailer. All of which are much better sculpts and predominantly plastic. I don't want to drag this off-topic with a GW vs. PP argument, but when I was looking at it subjectively, wanting to start a WM faction, I found it to be a worse deal than a starter 40k army.

More on topic, I'd like to see GW go back to specialists games. I have so many friends, who are now all in our early 30's, more than willing to start a Necromunda campaign or Bloodbowl league, but starting a new 40k army is a much more daunting prospect. There simply isn't the time for some of them. GW could really captilaize on the casual gamer who wants something that can be set up and played in an hour and has a $50-$150 cost of entry.

They also need to create a Kill Team expansion(and WHFB equivalent) for the same reason. If they simply can't continue to be profitable without raising prices, create a game type with existing models and army books that can be played at a smaller level, and add some RPG elements(similar to Necromunda) to pull people into the expansive universe that is at the heart of their IP. I'd be much more likely to buy the shiny new box sets if I could play a skirmish level game and grabbing these sets wouldn't ultimately require several hundred dollars of investment over time. It's the ultimate catalyst for impluse buys on new sets. I seriously can't understand why they have capitalized on this. It literally would just require an expansion book, all the other elements are already available with no extra investment by them! The Kill Team rules they recently added for free are a nice first step, but flesh it out in a full expansion, and they would see a lot more of my money.

I actually don't care that PP is cheaper. I find the game incredibly boring. Every year I check to see if the game is still all about caster kill - and it is. I haven't seen Steamroller 2013 but I haven't heard anything different. The game is equally as unbalanced as 40k in my opinion when you don't see many units, casters, or even factions being used. The best players all devolve into taking the same best units. Whoop dee do.

The rules are tighter. Much tighter. However, I almost have no issues playing 40k at the tournament level. Generally, there are no disputes about rules, most of the disputes tend to revolve around TLOS.

Zoned wrote:
I actually don't care that PP is cheaper. I find the game incredibly boring. Every year I check to see if the game is still all about caster kill - and it is. I haven't seen Steamroller 2013 but I haven't heard anything different. The game is equally as unbalanced as 40k in my opinion when you don't see many units, casters, or even factions being used. The best players all devolve into taking the same best units. Whoop dee do.

Which is why major tournaments have seen the exact same casters win every slot. Oh wait.

1. Fix the pricing.

I've looked around. It is hard to find stuff at the same level of detail for significantly less. I.E. I wanted to convert a bunch of Bradley IFVs to Predators, but the IFV kits all seemed close to the cost of a predator. While the price hikes hurt, it has more to do with the global inflation then to specific policies. Material costs are going up everywhere.

2. Support organized play.

I miss the big once a year campaigns. it was lots of incentive to get to the gamestore and get some games in. However, GW usually did a poor job running them, especially Storm of Chaos.

I'd prefer if WD became the vector for such a campaign. With the rules and such released as part of an ongoing campaign in the book, and at the end of the year they released a online PDF people could download and use. There was just too much cheating going in in the online reporting, and the game managers always forgot certain armies (like the wood elves vs. tomb kings).


3. Create relevant and timely FAQ and errata. This is painfully needed.

Back with the release of third edition they updated every codex in the back of the book. With the large delay between books they really do need to work on updating every book after a new ruleset release. Not to release new units, but to at least address rules issues.

4. Bring back GW run forums.

GW forums were a wasteland. I don't miss them at all.

Really, my biggest concern with GW is the lack of gateway drugs. They need something kids can get hooked for 50-100 bucks. I would have some better small squad based stuff, using the same models as 40k or fantasy, that people can pick up and paint easily and get a good quick game in.

Space Hulk is a good example, but allow choices from more units. Keep the unit count low, around 10 models each, and give large amounts of customization.

Soon enough people will have two too three units and say, hey, if I add a tank and an HQ choice I've got a 40k army.

GW needs to bring in new blood, and has to compete with video games that are increasingly designed to be addictive. Hit the low price point as the hook, and then feed them new models in bite size chunks.

nkelsch wrote:

Smaller games doesn't make individual models cheaper... that is a delusional state people who own 7 armies and are addicted to models claim.

Of course not, but point 1 of the article isn't about the price of models per se, it's about the price of entry and how long it takes you to get to the cool stuff that you're really interested in:

There's chatter on all channels these days about how GW is pricing people out, yadda. And of course lower prices are a good idea. I'm not calling for an across-the-board slash. These days, it makes sense to pay $15 - $20 for a character model you're going to buy one of. I'd say that the prices for chumps isn't even that bad, model for model. Three to four bucks per dude is about right. I'm talking about the cool stuff, the marquee models that you really want to buy. No one is stoked to buy guardsmen.

They want mountains, Gandalf! And by mountains I mean Valkyries and Manticores and Lemans oh my!

And that's where people are starting to balk. It's a critical misfire in the engine of someone starting into the game or building a new army. It's just too much. I've got to stand there and explain to them in painful detail why they need like four of these boxes of chumps, and this dude and that dude, and then these Chimeras that are kinda cool 'cause they're tanks and all, but they're still just the Nissan Sentras of the army... and then they can start talking about the one with the giant missile racks, or the burly MBTs, or those bad-ass flyers.

So, by the time we get to the good stuff, they've already spent themselves far into trouble with the wife and on top of it all, they have to buy like three of all the cool models, too! It's not that Valkyries are expensive, in the scope of things; it's that you need multiples of them.

(...)

Problem is, when that premium price comes at the end of an already costly and drudgerous trek through just getting the basics of an army, it's a hell of a buzzkill. And when guys look down the road a bit, or are simply salted with the Hobby enough to know what they're getting into, it's a lot harder to cannonball in.

(emphasis mine)

Price per model is a fair discussion to have (I don't think anyone outside of the most rose-tintedly fanboy blinded would argue that a $135 Stormwall is not PP pushing the price as far as they think it will go), but how many models you get to put on the table per dollar spent is only one factor among many for people actually looking to get into wargames, and not always the most important one.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Which is why major tournaments have seen the exact same casters win every slot. Oh wait.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but 90% of the tournament postings on the link don't mention casters. And I do see quite a few repeats.

Zoned wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:
Which is why major tournaments have seen the exact same casters win every slot. Oh wait.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but 90% of the tournament postings on the link don't mention casters. And I do see quite a few repeats.

Repeats of what? Every army has put something into a tourney win. The results are constantly mixed. What are widely regarded as the weakest factions, mercs and minions, even show up a fair amount. Have a hard time saying that about sisters of battle.

You're all completely missing the point.

There is only one step required:

- Stop trading as a public PLC company.

That's what it boils down to at the end of the day, GW as a corporation are legally obliged to maximise short-term sales growth for their shareholders.

Anything that is not 100% geared towards that end is not efficiently maximizing dividend yield for the shareholders and therefore represents a failure by the board of directors to do their job properly.

I didn't realize CBS news and the Institute for Economic research were loonie left wing conspiracy nuts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57387655/inflation-not-as-low-as-you-think/

If you don't feel like click it says inflation is about 8%. The government has changed the way they calculate inflation a number of times over the years. The current method includes big one time purchases like mortgages and cars which skew the average down. This study omits those and focuses on daily purchases which shows inflation is higher.

Another website http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
does some calculations using the same methodology used in the 80's which gives us about 10%. I am not sure how loonie or left wing that site is though or how accurate their data is as I am not smart enough to double check their work.


TL;DR: the real inflation rate is about 8%-10% according to some experts. The government has changed the method they calculate this over the years to make the number look smaller.

Who would actually use GW forums? They would be full of look aid drinking noobs and a few people looking for a fight.

The old forums were the pits. The layout was horrible, you could post pictures of anything, which rather undermines a modelling/gaming discussion, and there were rules about what couldn't be talked about covering things from prices to 'squats'. Yes, they had a 'no squats' rule.

 scarletsquig wrote:
You're all completely missing the point.

There is only one step required:

- Stop trading as a public PLC company.

That's what it boils down to at the end of the day, GW as a corporation are legally obliged to maximise short-term sales growth for their shareholders.

Anything that is not 100% geared towards that end is not efficiently maximizing dividend yield for the shareholders and therefore represents a failure by the board of directors to do their job properly.

Yep I think this nails it.

I think every 'problem' with GW over the past 5 years or more has come down to the decision to go public - Finecast, the poor state of WD, the trade embargo, the perennial price increases, no new games (ex. Dreadfleet) and the burying of Specialist Games, and the general pervading but almost overwhelming sense of Myopia eminating from the company come down to this. None of these would have happened had the company remained a private concern. And I don't believe they would have gone bust either - more people would have been playing the damned games, and there would have been about 1000% less bitching about GW on the forums..

I think it's really interesting to hear an opinion on the pricing from someone who actually has to try and sell the stuff. This paragraph really stood out to me:

I take the young man over to my GW section, resplendent with (largely unsold, sadly) new Hobbit stuff and he's in heaven. I do a bit of a spiel to mom about the Hobby and blah blah, then let them know I'm available for questions and leave them to their shopping. I head back to the counter just in time to see mom flip the Hobbit starter box and take a sh*t at the price tag. As I'm walking away, I overhear the dreaded mom kiss of death: “I don't know, honey...

This sounds very familiar. You do have to wonder how many potential sales are lost each day in this manner.

nkelsch wrote:
Smaller games doesn't make individual models cheaper... that is a delusional state people who own 7 armies and are addicted to models claim.

I think this was addressed in the article the OP linked. He was speaking from the point of view of a sales person, and the advantage of smaller games like Warmachine is you can say "Yeah these 5 guys are expensive, but once you get them you're gonna kick ass". That's a lot more encouraging than "Yeah these 5 guys are expensive, but once you get them you're gonna need 6 more boxes". It doesn't change the price per model, but it does change people's enthusiasm towards spending, and general satisfaction with the purchase.

 Smacks wrote:
I think it's really interesting to hear an opinion on the pricing from someone who actually has to try and sell the stuff. This paragraph really stood out to me:

I take the young man over to my GW section, resplendent with (largely unsold, sadly) new Hobbit stuff and he's in heaven. I do a bit of a spiel to mom about the Hobby and blah blah, then let them know I'm available for questions and leave them to their shopping. I head back to the counter just in time to see mom flip the Hobbit starter box and take a sh*t at the price tag. As I'm walking away, I overhear the dreaded mom kiss of death: “I don't know, honey...

This sounds very familiar. You do have to wonder how many potential sales are lost each day in this manner.

I honestly don't think people understand the concept of lowering the price and selling more and instead just assume that people will spend the same amount of money and just buy less models or worse yet assume people will buy the same amount of models, as if people have nothing else in the world to spend money on. Sure, some people will still spend the same amount of money and buy the same number of models, but it's a fallacy to think you aren't also going to lose customers and struggle to bring new customers in if you keep raising prices.

There's obviously an optimal pricing for getting maximum profit, personally I think GW have blown through that.

It's been true to a point though, GW veterans have historically paid pretty much anything for GW stuff, either from shelves, special releases or FW things. You can see this by OOP/limited edition stuff selling on ebay for multiples of the original RRP.

However, the same doesn't translate to new customers. With no prior investment or idea of how things are valued, they are comparing it with other stuff they know about; computer games, board games, and toys. The people who see the starter sets as too expensive as those that GW are trying to bring in. The people who will snap up the starter sets are the people GW doesn't actually care about.

I'm curious as to what the ratio of beginner to vet is with the starter set sales. I'd assume most vets will buy at least one of most of the starter sets for the games they play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:
You're all completely missing the point.

There is only one step required:

- Stop trading as a public PLC company.

That's what it boils down to at the end of the day, GW as a corporation are legally obliged to maximise short-term sales growth for their shareholders.

Anything that is not 100% geared towards that end is not efficiently maximizing dividend yield for the shareholders and therefore represents a failure by the board of directors to do their job properly.

They aren't legally obliged to maximise short-term sales growth purely because they have shareholders, especially if most of the share holders are long term investment groups. There are plenty of companies who focus on long term growth and don't try to maximize dividend yield (Apple rarely pays a dividend).

Short term growth is just the easiest thing to achieve and has the biggest incentive for management paid in stock or based on profit.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Who would actually use GW forums? They would be full of look aid drinking noobs and a few people looking for a fight.

The old forums were the pits. The layout was horrible, you could post pictures of anything, which rather undermines a modelling/gaming discussion, and there were rules about what couldn't be talked about covering things from prices to 'squats'. Yes, they had a 'no squats' rule.

They might have people who actually play games - unlike some forums I could mention.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MisterMoon wrote:

1. Indeed, but the official inflation rate is fudged.

The rate of inflation being at 3% is independently researched and peer-reviewed, and is relied on by all industries (including GW). So contrary to what you hear on AM radio, it's academically proven to be at 3%. No one but gold peddling far right loonies are saying that the inflation rate is at 10%.

2. I'm not sure where you get the idea that GW does not organize tournaments.

Their support for tournaments is a shadow of it's former self. I'm not sure if you're paying attention.

3. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your hobby.

Because I want timely updates, and not have to wait forever? How about I evaluate that company's competition, which I did, and non-GW companies are getting more of my gaming dollar than ever before.

4. GW has plenty of avenues to communicate with it's customers, all of them my useful than the possible feedback they would receive through an 'official forum'. And why would they bother with the hassle, and potential loss of sales, when they can get all the information they need by reading the numerous forums that already exist?

What about the avenue for me to communicate with them in a matter of my choosing since I am the customer? My thoughts are echoed through out the gaming community. Instead of allowing proper two way communication, they'd rather just snoop in on other forums and read it? That's poor communication imo. PP, and others have realized that we are, indeed, in the 21st century, and have used internet forums as a means to provide modern communication. If done right a forum would only perfect the product, as other gaming companies (all of them in fact) have found out. The link provided by the OP, if you even read it, provides good explanation on it's benefit.

1. I see why you need FAQ's given you inability to argue a point without getting angry.

2. Warhammer World runs plenty of events, tournaments and campaigns.

3. And will you obsess for a year over a game of soldiers in these other games?

4. Have you tried email? Or writing a letter? Or writing a White Dwarf article?

TBO, I've enjoyed GW products in the past, but if the company went under, I wouldn't be bothered that much.

As it has been pointed out by many a person on this site, there are so many other companies/minis out there, that I'm sure the hobby will survive even if GW run themselves into the ground.

We wrote:
I didn't realize CBS news and the Institute for Economic research were loonie left wing conspiracy nuts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57387655/inflation-not-as-low-as-you-think/

If you don't feel like click it says inflation is about 8%. The government has changed the way they calculate inflation a number of times over the years. The current method includes big one time purchases like mortgages and cars which skew the average down. This study omits those and focuses on daily purchases which shows inflation is higher.

Another website http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
does some calculations using the same methodology used in the 80's which gives us about 10%. I am not sure how loonie or left wing that site is though or how accurate their data is as I am not smart enough to double check their work.


TL;DR: the real inflation rate is about 8%-10% according to some experts. The government has changed the method they calculate this over the years to make the number look smaller.

Well, a quick glance shows that fuel costs are what is making CBS' numbers go way out of whack, but fuel can be rather volatile. If you compared to a month ago, fuel inflation has been like 10% per month. This is after having gas that was around $3.60 for a while. The second number comes from a site so politically skewed I wouldn't trust it with the time of day.

1. Fix the pricing.

I've looked around. It is hard to find stuff at the same level of detail for significantly less

You didn't look too hard then.
I can name three companies right off the top of my head, without having to even search, that produce 28mm plastic infantry figures that are of similar quality to GW yet are much lower in price.Google "Perry Miniatures", "Victrix Miniatures", and "Warlord Games". And these are major miniatures companies.. and .in the case of the Perrys, produced by some of the finest sculptors working today.

While the price hikes hurt, it has more to do with the global inflation then to specific policies. Material costs are going up everywhere.

You are aware that since circa 1990 GW prices have risen between 300 and 750% depending on the item, right? The overall rateof inflation in that time is no were near that level. So yes, whiile inflation certainly has had an effect upon GW's pricing model, it pretty clear that much of their price hikes have been simple gouging. As to the costs of materials, you are correct that they are rising. Yet other companies producing a comparable product have managed to keep their pricing model more realistic.

and finally...
.

4. Have you tried email? Or writing a letter? Or writing a White Dwarf article?

Are you aware that White Dwarf is one of the only miniature wargames magazines being published today that is totally in-house? They do not take outside submissions. Likewise, do you REALLY think that GW pays any attention at all to leters and (especially) emails...especially ones that are not 100% positive and non-critical? Be honest now.

TR

To be fair, Warlord Games' minis aren't that highly detailed. They're great and I love them, but they're not that highly detailed. Still, 40 a box for a similar price to the tactical squad? Count me in!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
To be fair, Warlord Games' minis aren't that highly detailed. They're great and I love them, but they're not that highly detailed. Still, 40 a box for a similar price to the tactical squad? Count me in!

Eh.
We can quible about what "highly detailed" really is. Personally, as a painter, I prefer a miniature with simple well defined lines over the over-cluttered GW miniatures of today. But that is another subect....one I'll have devote a full thread to some day. (or perhaps a podcast if I ever get off my butt and start producing them...) If it helps, the three companies I mention above that produce a product similar in quality to that of GW at a much lower price are listed in decending order of quality: Perry, Victrix, then Warlord.

But yes, the Warlord figures are quite nice. I am about to start painting up a Waffen SS platoon for my WW2 games and most will be Warlord.

TR

Mm, I do like the Warlord miniatures (especially their Celt line and the new Caesarian Romans look epic) and they'll probably be miles easier than GW ones to paint!

Perry, though, have brilliant models.

 Trench-Raider wrote:

We can quible about what "highly detailed" really is. Personally, as a painter, I prefer a miniature with simple well defined lines over the over-cluttered GW miniatures of today. But that is another subect....one I'll have devote a full thread to some day. (or perhaps a podcast if I ever get off my butt and start producing them...)

Oh, please do. If there is one big drawback to the rise of CAD sculpting, it is the growing number of sculptors who think that covering every available surface with an overabundance of easily added "detail" has anything to do with good model design.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Disdainful, same name here as on c&c, wrote up an article on capture and control explaining the 4 easy steps to fixing GW.

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

It is a longer than normal article so I don't want to just cut and paste it in, plus there are quite a few pictures! For those who don't like clicking links that take you out of dakka here is a summary.

1. Fix the pricing. Dis argues that you don't need an across the board price drop, but there are some price fixes that are absolutely necessary.
2. Support organized play. Not just a rt and gt format from GW themselves but 4 times a year well supported campaigns. All similar to how PP runs things.
3. Create relevant and timely FAQ and errata. This is painfully needed.
4. Bring back GW run forums. In order to facilitate an actual relationship with the community that isn't hostile and also supports the creation of the FAQs and Errata a GW run forum really is necessary. It would also help aid in the campaigns and tournament formatting etc.

These are just basic points so I would suggest reading the whole article to get all of Dis' finer points. I wanted to post this here to get feedback from the dakka community specifically since not everyone here reads c&c regularly. This is not a ploy for page views. We make no money off of capture and control, it is purely a project of love for the hobby from those of us who post there. So what do you think?

A great article.

I'd add a few more, but if they would even hit ONE of the points, that would be a start.

Mine would be alittle more along the lines of-
1. Bring back the fun.
2. lighten up on being jackassery.
3.Don't worry so much about ripping people off, then making a quality product.
4. Give me a reason to be excited, again.

But I like the article, and I like the writers style. You sir, are a class act- please have my babies.

 MisterMoon wrote:

1. Indeed, but the official inflation rate is fudged.

The rate of inflation being at 3% is independently researched and peer-reviewed, and is relied on by all industries (including GW). So contrary to what you hear on AM radio, it's academically proven to be at 3%. No one but gold peddling far right loonies are saying that the inflation rate is at 10%.

Next you're telling us how unemployment is easing because official unemployment rates are dropping....

First, nice little article.

But I must say that anyone who write this:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
4. Bring back GW run forums.

Must never have seen what those where.

Next you're telling us how unemployment is easing because official unemployment rates are dropping....

Next you'll be telling us how the moon landing was a hoax because of some link you found on the Internet.

I have been working in business for over 20 years and I've found that peer-reviewed research is the best tool we have at fact-finding. If scholars and academia in a field present a well studied solution that has been experimented on, and re-experimented on by peers, I accept it. When their consensus findings change, I also change with it. Currently using the CPI to determine overall inflation has overwhelming support, and it's widely used and accepted in business. And yes, to answer your question, we've had to increase my head count at my company due to an improved economy. I've also found that good candidates have multiple offers and it's competitive to find good talent. This wasn't the case last year. So yes, unemployment is easing.

Having said that, there are other tools for other more volatile industries. It's also not fair just to slam down 3% annual inflation on GW, and call them out if they are raising their prices higher than that. There are endless reasons for a company to raise prices. In addition the 3% includes everything from sweeping compound to enriched uranium. The CBS article provides a micro look which might be applicable to some industries. Hell it might be applicable to GW in some small way, but to say it challenges to conventional wisdom of an annual inflation rate over 3%, which is what was posted, is absurd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1. I see why you need FAQ's given you inability to argue a point without getting angry.

Not angry, but I can read your snarky tone. So don't sit back and cry about me being "angry."

2. Warhammer World runs plenty of events, tournaments and campaigns.

Warhammer tournaments are a shadow of their former self? Did you read the article?

3. And will you obsess for a year over a game of soldiers in these other games?

Obsess is a strong word, but good job at hyperbole on my complaint. But, in other games I've not found myself waiting nearly as long.

4. Have you tried email? Or writing a letter? Or writing a White Dwarf article?

What's wrong with the second decade of the 21st century and fully capitalizing on the benefits of an internet community? Writing a letter? Should I use a quill? (How's that for hyperbole) At any event I have found that GW, as a gaming company does not like to have the same relationship with it's fans like other gaming companies. This is one example.

Herzlos wrote:
It's been true to a point though, GW veterans have historically paid pretty much anything for GW stuff, either from shelves, special releases or FW things.

Well of course the GW veterans do, that's what makes them veterans, the fact they are still there after all these years. But with each price rise, how many veterans stay on compared to how many don't. You mention the fact that you can get limited/OOP models on ebay for many times their original price, true, but you can also get entire armies ranging from poor to average paint jobs on ebay for a fraction of the price. My FLGS trades used/painted GW stuff and every few weeks you see an entire army in various states of assembled/painted in the display case, more than likely because someone has quit and traded in their army, which the GW veterans can now pick up for a fraction of the price compared to new models.

Though personally, price is only half the equation with me, what they've done to the rules for both 40k and Fantasy over the years has driven me away from buying stuff far more than anything else. Granted I do still buy stuff, but mostly 2nd hand or 1 offs because I want to paint something, so GW sure isn't making much off me these past years.

At any event I have found that GW, as a gaming company does not like to have the same relationship with it's fans like other gaming companies. This is one example.

Given that I have done a little bit of writing in the miniature gaming industry, I can speak to this. Most of today's gaming companies use the communcation technology of today's world to communicate with their customers and pride themselves on being accessable. The two companies I have written for are fairly typical. Iron Ivan Games is not a good example though, as they are a tiny hole in the wall operation run by three gamers and high three digit circulation numbers on most of their products. Of course an outfit like that is going to have a close relationship with their customers. But I have also written for Ambush Alley, which is a much larger and more established company with worldwide distribution. (the fact that Osprey has been their publisher on their latest projects is a big reason for that) AA runs a very active web forum on which both the owners and employees of the company and the product authors are frequent contributors. If you go to their forum with a rules or design question, in short order you will get a reply often by the very person who wrote the material you are inquiring about. Likewise, we are encouraged to go to other web forums and to be accessable when questions come up. I'm a regular over at TMP for instance and often field questions about "Bush Wars" on their modern gaming sub-forum.

Contrast this with GW's "hands off" policy when dealing with their customers. The closest you will come to interacting with GW's writing staff if the all-too infrequent FAQ or a self-serving article in their propaganda rag (aka White Dwarf). GW could take a clue from these smaller more customer-friendly game companies in how they interact with their customers and using the various mediums of communcation in the modern world. The smaller, more involved companies treat their customers like a valued partner in their busines, while GW treat their as if they were a nusance.

TR

 Trench-Raider wrote:

(price decreases are) Plausible on certain items, but some are sitting just right at the moment

Like what?
I can't think of a single item in the GW catalog that is in keeping with industry norm on pricing.
...
...

The thing is, GW are not in the tabletop wargames industry, they are the monopoly in the Warhammer industry. Theyc an set whatever price they like as long as people want to buy Warhammer products.

The thing is, GW are not in the tabletop wargames industry, they are the monopoly in the Warhammer industry

Nonsense.
They might like to market themselves as being a stand alone "GW hobby", but the fact of the matter is that Warhammer games are but one genre of the larger tabletop wargaming hobby. They are part of a much larger hobby that existed long before they came along and will contiue to be long after they finally shut up shop.

And yes, their pricing in not in keeping with the norm for similar products in that industry. Sadly, they have been a bad influence on several other companies as far as pricing and business model goes. But the fact remains that they are the exception rather than the rule.

Theyc an set whatever price they like as long as people want to buy Warhammer products.

True.
And that's the main cause of the problem: we keep buying their products. A lot of people got offended when GW boasted on their Investor Relations site that their customer base was "price insensitive", but it's true. The kiddies that spend their alowance money on Warhammer figures that are the primary target audience of GW have no real concept of the worth of money after all. But GW will keep pushing the price envelope until one day they finally put themselves out of busness.

TR

The problem is Killkrazy the pricing has run out of even GWs control.

They are no longer hiking the prices to maximize profit,(When they actually had control of the pricing.)
But now NEED to keep increasing prices to offset falling sales volume.
And the higher the prices the higher the drop off in sales volume....

The only way for GW to get control back would be a massive change in current operating procedures...

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, GW are not in the tabletop wargames industry, they are the monopoly in the Warhammer industry. Theyc an set whatever price they like as long as people want to buy Warhammer products.

A monopoly requires no meaningful alternatives and that's just not the case here. More and more people are finding out about alternatives, even those suitable for use with 40k and WFB.

Also, the point of being a monopolistic structure is the ability to price at a higher point than where supply and demand would normally allow. But if you look at GW's yearly revenue and factor in their price increases, they're simply not getting the benefit a monopoly should be expected to have.

They're basically not a monopoly.

 MisterMoon wrote:

Next you're telling us how unemployment is easing because official unemployment rates are dropping....

Next you'll be telling us how the moon landing was a hoax because of some link you found on the Internet.

I have been working in business for over 20 years and I've found that peer-reviewed research is the best tool we have at fact-finding. If scholars and academia in a field present a well studied solution that has been experimented on, and re-experimented on by peers, I accept it. When their consensus findings change, I also change with it. Currently using the CPI to determine overall inflation has overwhelming support, and it's widely used and accepted in business.

Rubbish. CPI is not a product of "peer-reviewed academic study". It's an average calculated from various sub-categories, which are selected rather arbitrarily, and then weighted into overall index, again by quite arbitrary process. Now, I am not saying there is active conspiracy to fudge the numbers, but clearly the process leaves lot of room for that if wanted. As for unemployment rate, official rates are based on number of people with unemployed status according to various ILO criteria. It is well known that governments around the world "game" the numbers. One popular method is to offer jobless "re-education", put them on some courses so they are no longer "seeking for job" and voilá! unemployment eases!

 Trench-Raider wrote:

True.
And that's the main cause of the problem: we keep buying their products. A lot of people got offended when GW boasted on their Investor Relations site that their customer base was "price insensitive", but it's true. The kiddies that spend their alowance money on Warhammer figures that are the primary target audience of GW have no real concept of the worth of money after all. But GW will keep pushing the price envelope until one day they finally put themselves out of busness.

TR

The thing is, I don't think that's true at all. Yes, if you read a forum you may get that impression and if you talk to the GW veterans you'll get that impression because they are the ones who have endured the price and continue to play. But beyond that, you have the people who have avoided starting the hobby because the price was too high and people who have quit and no longer frequent the stores and forums to know about them.

I know for me and my friends, we are highly price sensitive. I'm been in the hobby since I was about 10 or 11. Back then, I bought models with my pocket money earned from chores and such, so I was highly price sensitive and if it were much higher I would not have played, since I was on my limit of what I could afford back then. These days I'm often put off by prices and you hear story after story of people who wanted to buy something but didn't because of the price. One of my mates who actually got me in to the hobby back in school when we were both about 10yo, he quit as a teenager for other random reasons and at times has considered taking it up again and has been put off by prices. On more than one occasion I've heard him say he walked in to a GW shop, got hassled by the staff for several minutes, finally shook them off and looked at the models, saw the prices and left. Another friend who is interested in wargaming and I've been trying to get him in to the hobby was planning on starting a Fantasy army but for the past few years has been unable to justify the price (we went through and added up the cost of an entire army and he decided he couldn't waste the money), now he's started Warmachine instead.

Just because GW say they're price insensitive and just because you see kiddies tugging on Mummy's arm to get them to buy stuff doesn't mean it's true of the wider audience. GW are obviously going to be biased in saying their customers are price insensitive, so that their investors can feel like GW are making the right choice in raising prices which will get them more money, instead of the investors being worried they're pricing the customers out of the hobby and thus getting them less money.

Backfire wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:

Next you're telling us how unemployment is easing because official unemployment rates are dropping....

Next you'll be telling us how the moon landing was a hoax because of some link you found on the Internet.

I have been working in business for over 20 years and I've found that peer-reviewed research is the best tool we have at fact-finding. If scholars and academia in a field present a well studied solution that has been experimented on, and re-experimented on by peers, I accept it. When their consensus findings change, I also change with it. Currently using the CPI to determine overall inflation has overwhelming support, and it's widely used and accepted in business.

Rubbish. CPI is not a product of "peer-reviewed academic study". It's an average calculated from various sub-categories, which are selected rather arbitrarily, and then weighted into overall index, again by quite arbitrary process. Now, I am not saying there is active conspiracy to fudge the numbers, but clearly the process leaves lot of room for that if wanted. As for unemployment rate, official rates are based on number of people with unemployed status according to various ILO criteria. It is well known that governments around the world "game" the numbers. One popular method is to offer jobless "re-education", put them on some courses so they are no longer "seeking for job" and voilá! unemployment eases!

Also the way the CPI is calculated has been changed, which is the point of the second link I provided. If we were to calculate the CPI like we did in the 80's inflation is much higher today. While that ite may be politically biased the numbers don't lie. And like I provided, the first link i a non politically biased and credible source that you completely ignore. It is taking way more into account than gas prices.

Unemployment in measured in several several ways U1-U6 I believe. The official number, the U3 is 7.8% pretty high no matter what you believe. However if you look at the more meaningful number the picture is even worse.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

I am done arguing this topic though because you can't argue with Obama fans.

As to the OP, there is nothing wrong with GW they are making money which is there goal, so there is nothing to "fix." Share holders are happy so nothing will change.

Now a more accurate topic should be how to improve GW or How to improve GW sales or How to Improve GW's relations with its Customers. Some guy writing a blog talking about how to fix GW is nonsensical and all this is, is yet again, another whine about GW prices thread because people want to buy more models than they can afford.

 agustin wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, GW are not in the tabletop wargames industry, they are the monopoly in the Warhammer industry. Theyc an set whatever price they like as long as people want to buy Warhammer products.

A monopoly requires no meaningful alternatives and that's just not the case here. More and more people are finding out about alternatives, even those suitable for use with 40k and WFB.

Also, the point of being a monopolistic structure is the ability to price at a higher point than where supply and demand would normally allow. But if you look at GW's yearly revenue and factor in their price increases, they're simply not getting the benefit a monopoly should be expected to have.

They're basically not a monopoly.

I don't think anyone believes they are a monopoly, but they definitely act and price as if they are, and to a fair extent that's true; a large number of gamers are completely unaware of any alternatives, or have been lead to believe that the alternatives are cheap knock-offs of GW.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

-.-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 agustin wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The thing is, GW are not in the tabletop wargames industry, they are the monopoly in the Warhammer industry. Theyc an set whatever price they like as long as people want to buy Warhammer products.

A monopoly requires no meaningful alternatives and that's just not the case here. More and more people are finding out about alternatives, even those suitable for use with 40k and WFB.

Also, the point of being a monopolistic structure is the ability to price at a higher point than where supply and demand would normally allow. But if you look at GW's yearly revenue and factor in their price increases, they're simply not getting the benefit a monopoly should be expected to have.

They're basically not a monopoly.

False, a legal monopoly in the UK is when a company has more than 25% of the market. A market may still exist even when there are other major players - the Supermarket industry is one of them.

If we think of it like that, then GW probably has a monopoly. They have also acted like a monopoly. My Economics IGCSE textbook states that thes ha monopoly:
- High Barriers of Entry - competition is discouraged by the big firm in order to protect their interests. This happens, if you think about it: it's quite difficult to find decent scupltors and mould-makers. Having said that, it's probably easier now than it was a few years ago, but unlike some industries where I can start up immediately, with wargaming I need to produce rules and miniatures and sell them at a decent price. The prices will have to be low, otherwise why would anyone buy from me when they can go to GW or Privateer Press and buy better miniatures for the same price or less?
- Unique Product - a company has an unusual product and there's not one really like it. GW have unique rules and worlds which may or may not be beaten by other companies. Regardless, the rules are fairly straight foward compared to other company's rules. Also, they operate stores, the only major Wargaming company that does.
- Control over price - the company can control the price they charge. GW, as we have all pointed out, do this.
- High research and development budgets - companies, due to their large size, can invest heavily into R&D for their products. GW do this very well. Finecast springs to mind, but also kits like the Tactical Marines probably were at the time very revolutionary.
- International competitiveness - companies who operate effectively domestically probably can operate well in foreign markets. GW, being British, have done mighty well for themseves in the global market.
- Higher Prices - because they're the sole company or the largest provider of whatever industry they operate in, they can charge higher prices and people will still buy the products. Guess what GW do? Though they may be losing customers.
- Restricted choice - as you outcompete your rivals, you push them out of the market. In the UK, most would play a GW game because of the prevalence of GW stores. Elsewhere, this doesn't happen so much, but most people do play GW games or at least have some GW models if they wargame.
- Lack of innovation - if you're the largest company in the market, why innovate? This could be said about GW - they only just released eBooks for the codi, and they're badly priced. They don't like the digital age, I think.

So GW do show the traits of having a monopoly and acting like a monopolisers, according to my IGCSE Economics textbook written by Rob Jones.

 pixelpusher wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

-.-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Perhaps you'd like to clarify that rather than just troll?

If we could please endeavour to make our points in a somewhat less trolly fashion then the discussion will progress in a much smoother and rewarding fashion for all concerned.

Thanks.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

-.-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Perhaps you'd like to clarify that rather than just troll?

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

Also the way the CPI is calculated has been changed, which is the point of the second link I provided. While it may be politically biased the numbers don't lie.

What's wrong with broad consensus opinion on research changing from 30 years ago? I'm sure glad we have better gas mileage and better computers too. You can arrange number to tell any sort of lie imaginable. Lets see how their findings fair in peer-reviewed journals, and not on some quack website. For the time being we rely heavily on the the idea that the average rate of inflation is 3%. If a model presents itself many years from now that can challenge it, so be it. But for now, any idea of a 10% inflation rate is radical talk at best.

If we were to calculate the CPI like we did in the 80's inflation is much higher today. While that ite may be politically biased the numbers don't lie. And like I provided, the first link i a non politically biased and credible source that you completely ignore. It is taking way more into account than gas prices.

It's one source, whether its a "non-political" or not, it's just one, it tries to toss out years of economic research with just ONE report.

Unemployment is measured in several several ways U1-U6 I believe. The official number, the U3 is 7.8% pretty high no matter what you believe. However if you look at the more meaningful number the picture is even worse

.
7.8 is better than 12+ which is what it was, so yes, unemployment is easing. And what is the more meaningful number to you? The one broadly accepted, or the one most applicable to your political interests?

I am done arguing this topic though because you can't argue with Obama fans.

Say what?! This reactionary zero to 60 false dichotomy logic further proves you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm done arguing with you because you're ignorant of anything outside your little bubble.

As to the OP, there is nothing wrong with GW they are making money which is there goal, so there is nothing to "fix." Share holders are happy so nothing will change.

Unless the customers are revolting to their prices.

Now a more accurate topic should be how to improve GW or How to improve GW sales or How to Improve GW's relations with its Customers.

I think this link the OP gave addressed these very things!

Some guy writing a blog talking about how to fix GW is nonsensical and all this is, is yet again, another whine about GW prices thread because people want to buy more models than they can afford.

You obviously didn't read it.

 pixelpusher wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

http://www.captureandcontrol.com/2013/02/how-to-fix-gw-in-four-easy-steps.html

-.-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Perhaps you'd like to clarify that rather than just troll?

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

Prolific posters? By whose definition? Post count? Tournament wins? Years in the game? Number of successfully closed threads?

I get it, you believe GW has no problems, they are simply perceived by those of us who do see them and anyone who comments on those perceived problems is out of their league. If you are going to require specific credentials for the right to post things on an internet forum or blog you're going to have a rough time on the internet. The idea that only those "qualified" to comment may comment is an oppressive, and often opposition based, ideology.

Back on topic.

A lot of interesting thoughts in here on the article, and thanks to those who read it before commenting I personally don't think a whole reboot of GW forums would be necessary but if GW had a rep on each of the major Forums who would weigh in on the RAW arguments in the YMDC section it would be a huge help. Obviously this would increase the work load of the MODS as they would have to keep a lot of the trolling at bay but over time I think, the Dakka community at least, would come to accept and appreciate the presence of an actual and official GW rep on the Forums. It would be easier than moderating and creating their own forums.

Rubbish. CPI is not a product of "peer-reviewed academic study". It's an average calculated from various sub-categories, which are selected rather arbitrarily, and then weighted into overall index, again by quite arbitrary process.

Arbitrary? So, says you. So you don't think any sort of academic, and peer reviewed criticism went into selecting this current model?

Now, I am not saying there is active conspiracy to fudge the numbers, but clearly the process leaves lot of room for that if wanted.

Right, and the people that study this sort of thing, PhD Economists from around the world left in "arbitrary wiggle room." I doubt that.

As for unemployment rate, official rates are based on number of people with unemployed status according to various ILO criteria. It is well known that governments around the world "game" the numbers.

Academia and independent researchers also study unemployment and their consensus peer-reviewed opinion is available and is compared to government studies. You'll find that their models show unemployment is falling, and no clear gaming of the system conspiracy theory. But I'm sure you'll find a link from a fringe site that says otherwise.

One popular method is to offer jobless "re-education", put them on some courses so they are no longer "seeking for job" and voilá! unemployment eases!

Again, along the same lines, researchers are aware of this and have modeled for it accordingly. You're trying to oversimplify a rather complex model.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

- High Barriers of Entry

It's never been easier to get a miniature made. The internet can supply a new producer with contact with artists, sculptors, contract casters, e-stores, and even funding from places like KS and Indiegogo.

- competition is discouraged by the big firm in order to protect their interests.

GW has chosen to pretend the rest of the industry doesn't exist. They don't do anything to directly compete with anyone. They don't go to Gencon and try to get people interested in their stuff. They don't do anything to compete outside of the UK (where they actually go to shows like Salute and have stores to compete all over the place). I'd say instead of competing, they've been giving away market share. Price hikes make room for smaller producers to become more profitable and numerous as margins improve.

it's quite difficult to find decent scupltors and mould-makers.

I'd say it's never been simpler. There are all sorts of skilled 3d modellers and sculptors out there and many industry veterans are more than willing to freelance. There are also lots of casting companies that have openings all the time.

- Unique Product

GW's stuff is derivative and easy to substitute. Even makers who originally started as accessory bitz makers for GW kits are doing great with full kits that make power armoured troopers with big shoulder pads.

Control over price - the company can control the price they charge. GW, as we have all pointed out, do this.

Definitely this. The Rest of World embargo for UK and EU sellers is a great example of it. Agree here for sure.

- High research and development budgets - companies, due to their large size, can invest heavily into R&D for their products. GW do this very well. Finecast springs to mind, but also kits like the Tactical Marines probably were at the time very revolutionary.

Except the tooling company that got GW there (Renendra) is now open to other companies and more and more are joining GW in producing plastics all the time. GW's management also keeps priding themselves on their cost cutting, so I'm guessing very little goes into more R&D these days. This might have been true five years ago, but not today.

- International competitiveness - companies who operate effectively domestically probably can operate well in foreign markets. GW, being British, have done mighty well for themseves in the global market.

They've largely failed to port their corporate store model to North America. And now the internet can connect miniature makers with interested customers on separate continents with ease.

Higher Prices - because they're the sole company or the largest provider of whatever industry they operate in, they can charge higher prices and people will still buy the products. Guess what GW do? Though they may be losing customers.

Agree here, but if they're losing customers, then they are not getting the benefit of being a monopoly in terms of price.

Restricted choice

We've never had a greater variety of games and miniatures to chose from as we do today.

Lack of innovation - if you're the largest company in the market, why innovate? This could be said about GW - they only just released eBooks for the codi, and they're badly priced. They don't like the digital age, I think.

It's sort of the flip side to the R&D one, isn't it? I agree though-- GW hasn't done any real innovation in quite some time.

So GW do show the traits of having a monopoly and acting like a monopolisers, according to my IGCSE Economics textbook written by Rob Jones.

I think they used to be monopolistic, but gave away so much of their market share that they now don't really count as one. Even if they continue to behave as if they are one in their own minds. But carrying out practices you can get away with when you are a monopoly when you aren't one is probably not good for long term success.

 Trench-Raider wrote:

You didn't look too hard then.
I can name three companies right off the top of my head, without having to even search, that produce 28mm plastic infantry figures that are of similar quality to GW yet are much lower in price.Google "Perry Miniatures", "Victrix Miniatures", and "Warlord Games". And these are major miniatures companies.. and .in the case of the Perrys, produced by some of the finest sculptors working today.

You bring up a great point here. As I mentioned in the thread on GW pricing, I recently sold off my last GW army and have been moving into WWII gaming. The price difference between fantasy/sci-fi and historicals is almost laughable.

A few examples of 28mm Infantry (prices in US dollars):

GW Cadian Shock Troops - 10/box plastic: $29.00 ($2.90/model)
GW Tactical Space Marines - 10/box plastic: $37.25 ($3.73/model)

Warlord American Infantry - 25/box plastic: $36.00 ($1.44/model)
BlackTree US Para Platoon - 30/box metal: $46.79 ($1.55/model)
Foundry German Infantry - 8/pack metal: $18.68 ($2.33/model)
Artizan Waffen SS Infantry - 26/box metal: $46.54 ($1.79/model)

And an example of tanks:

GW Chimera (plastic): $37.25
Warlord M4A3 76mm Sherman (resin/metal): $35.00
Tamiya 1/48 (about 32mm) M4 Sherman (plastic): $26.99

GW Leman Russ (plastic): $49.50
Warlord King Tiger w/Zimmerit (resin/metal): $41.00
Tamiya 1/48 Tiger 1E (plastic): $29.99

Perhaps Historicals are much cheaper because of competition (there is a lot in historicals), but considering many of them are smaller companies and in many cases using resin/metal, which are more expensive than plastic, they shouldn't be, on average, half the price or more of a basic GW trooper. GW should, more than any other company, have the power of scale of manufacturing. The Wal-Mart effect, so to speak. In other words, they should not only have some of the best models in the business, but also some of the cheapest. This is what creates market power and domination.

So, to the thread topic, if I ran the company, I would test this on a small scale then, if it works, roll it out worldwide. I would seek to own the market again, not keep my collective head up my a** about my perceived belief I own the market. I would focus on not only getting new players in, but keeping players long term. Long term players tend to always buy as they collect multiple armies. Currently, they are making it so that when existing hobbyists are reaching the "collect a new army" stage, they are instead taking that money to other game systems (Warmahordes, Flames of War, Bolt Action, Infinity - the list goes on), and no only are you not capturing that revenue - you are losing players to other companies and therefore the exit from GW becomes so much less painless.

I am of the belief that if GW wasn't so arrogant and removed from real-life, and had acted appropriately, they could have shut down Warmahordes before it really ever got going. Flames of War could have been mitigated a little (but some still prefer historicals, so they wouldn't have mattered). More support for Necromunda and Mordheim would have also mitigated the plethora of skirmish games eating into the market.

Next, I'd focus on GW becoming channel friendly again. They should treat their LGS's like gold (like they once did) and fix their issues with the Oceania region.

Third, get rid of the finecrap - the market in general doesn't like it. Move to resin, all plastic or back to metal, but get rid of the stuff.

Fourth, move the company into the current millienia and realize there is this thing called the internet and start utilizing to full effect. Let online stores post pictures again, etc.

Fifth, change game design from being a marketing department for toys into a game studio again. Balance and adjust the game to be fair and fun regardless o the armies people want to play.

Anyway, my thoughts on things.

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

 BryllCream wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

Yes, but you seem to be implying that is us just being haters. When EVERY thread on here, and GWs facebook, and most the other wargaming forums are negative that is a problem with the company, not us.

 BryllCream wrote:
*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

But if people are hitting broken rules, however petty, that ruin their enjoyment of the game, then yes the badly written rules break the game.

Whilst I'm no expert on the rules, in the games I've played I've spent about 1/3rd of the turn time flicking about trying to figure out if x or y is allowed or what I'm meant to do after z has happened.

Yes the rules are complicated, that's the problem; the rules are far more complicated than they need to be, and are the result of 4 iterations of using special rules to patch things. The state of the rules is a valid complaint.

 BryllCream wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

It could also be named GW Lurve. Regardless what issue is raised somebody (usu. several and often just as identifiable as batting for GW's side in any argument) comes along to defend their practices.

Step 5: don't rage quit the Internet like a 16 year old girl

I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price.

Then, as I told the other apologist, you simply have not been looking.

TR

 BryllCream wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

and you should be renamed GW's White Knight, because its all you ever seem to do

If all you can do in response to my argument is say "well you're only defending GW" then you obviously haven't got a leg to stand on. Feel free to go through my posting history where I explain that I only buy GW second hand, how GW have drained all creativity and fun out of the design studio and how shittily over-powered some armies were/are, then come back and tell me I'm a white knight.

Or acknowledge that you have have taken a dislike for a company (completely understandable, as GW are gaks) and blown it all out of proportion.

You just painted an entire forum with a broad brush and then you object when you get categorized?

I think there's a lesson here somewhere. About something. Probably.

I think if we as a community can move away from thinking of everything in terms of 'GW Haters' and 'GW White Knights' then the discussion will be all the better for it. I think we can all agree that there are very few people who actually exist in such absolutes, despite how convenient it may be to place people in that category.

 filbert wrote:
I think if we as a community can move away from thinking of everything in terms of 'GW Haters' and 'GW White Knights' then the discussion will be all the better for it. .

Please

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

 BryllCream wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

Few people, if any, are raging. Dissent, disagreement and debate does not mean rage.

 BryllCream wrote:

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

It also attracts the true believers who feel they must defend the faith.

Or maybe it's not about GW rage or white knights. Maybe it's where people can discuss what they want and it's okay for them to hold the position they want as long as they don't violate forum rules.

Everyone who really like 40k should be happy that the fighting stays in Dakka Discussions and not in any of the 13 sub forums that are actually about GW's games. Separation of arguments from the sub forums in this manner is a good thing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

It's outrageous that people discuss their opinions openly in the discussion section. It is even more outrageous that Mods have an opinion that is not in line with your own!

People who think GW is failing them as customers aren't making it up. It is how they feel. When someone's feelings are not in line with your own it is not flaming, especially when they back up their opinions with clearly thought out arguments.

 BryllCream wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

The question is whether Dakka Discussions is really full of haters mindlessly hating GW or if that's just your very personal, subjective observation.

 BryllCream wrote:
I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

Possibly, although you have to admit the other side of the coin, the people who defend GW regardless are often just as bad. And a lot of people in the middle get cast as either one or other of these types.

Including yourself in this very thread. Which is why that general approach to debate fails.

I notice your earlier post that you have never seen a non-GW model that was both as good-looking as, and priced lower than GW.

Try swinging by the Dreamforge games thread if you want a pretty unanimous example of a technically superior product at a lower price. That's not even my personal company of choice, there, but I recognise good stuff when I see it.

There's a whole world of awesome minis out there. Most of them are almost as expensive as GW, that is generally true apart from a few exceptions.

People who support those alternatives are best served by promoting them, rather than attacking GW.

*glances at thread title* Whoa, this got OT pretty quick. I don't really have anything else to add other than my earlier post.