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 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

 BryllCream wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

Yes, but you seem to be implying that is us just being haters. When EVERY thread on here, and GWs facebook, and most the other wargaming forums are negative that is a problem with the company, not us.

 BryllCream wrote:
*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

But if people are hitting broken rules, however petty, that ruin their enjoyment of the game, then yes the badly written rules break the game.

Whilst I'm no expert on the rules, in the games I've played I've spent about 1/3rd of the turn time flicking about trying to figure out if x or y is allowed or what I'm meant to do after z has happened.

Yes the rules are complicated, that's the problem; the rules are far more complicated than they need to be, and are the result of 4 iterations of using special rules to patch things. The state of the rules is a valid complaint.

 BryllCream wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

It could also be named GW Lurve. Regardless what issue is raised somebody (usu. several and often just as identifiable as batting for GW's side in any argument) comes along to defend their practices.

Step 5: don't rage quit the Internet like a 16 year old girl

I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price.

Then, as I told the other apologist, you simply have not been looking.

TR

 BryllCream wrote:

 pixelpusher wrote:

Yeah, sure.
This guy is so far out of his lane that it's ridiculous. Or did my copy of Dark Vengeance not come with the various MBA degrees everyone else with simple solutions to Games Workshops (percieved) problems have? The barista at my local coffee shop probably has just as much insight in how you run a large corporation as this guy has.

The blog post is basically just preaching to the choir, re-iterating opinions of profilic posters on The FFForums. If it's the church choir of the Peoples Temple or not I leave up for discussion.

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

*Whinging about price rises. If something too expensive, don't buy it.

*Whinging about lack of FAQs. Despite the fact that GW have a track record of fixing major problems in FAQs, people like to take tiny and obscure rule problems and act as if they break the game. They also have a gross lack of understanding about how complex a ruleset is - I think I worked out there were several million possible rule interactions, people expect every one of them to be perfect.

*Whinging about not being GW's target demographic. GW don't care about tournament gaming - I get that this is frustrating for some people, but that's just how 40k works. Yes some things are under-costed/over-powered, that's why you don't spam them when you're playing with buddies. But the notion that GW put no effort at all into balance, is clearly absurd. GK were over-powered, but it's not like paladins were 3 points per model.

*Evangelical preaching about other games/models. This can approach creepy religious levels. I've also yet to see an alternative to GW that was the same or better quality, and a decent reduction in price. Regardless the fervor that some posters have towards WM ( a system I'd never heard of before I joined dakka) et al is just weird.

*Personal anecdotes. Oh, you and three friends have given up GW? Well me and 4 friends have started it recently, therefore GW is growing. Acknoledging that personal anecdotes are irrelevent before presenting one, doesn't make it valid.

and you should be renamed GW's White Knight, because its all you ever seem to do

If all you can do in response to my argument is say "well you're only defending GW" then you obviously haven't got a leg to stand on. Feel free to go through my posting history where I explain that I only buy GW second hand, how GW have drained all creativity and fun out of the design studio and how shittily over-powered some armies were/are, then come back and tell me I'm a white knight.

Or acknowledge that you have have taken a dislike for a company (completely understandable, as GW are gaks) and blown it all out of proportion.

You just painted an entire forum with a broad brush and then you object when you get categorized?

I think there's a lesson here somewhere. About something. Probably.

I think if we as a community can move away from thinking of everything in terms of 'GW Haters' and 'GW White Knights' then the discussion will be all the better for it. I think we can all agree that there are very few people who actually exist in such absolutes, despite how convenient it may be to place people in that category.

 filbert wrote:
I think if we as a community can move away from thinking of everything in terms of 'GW Haters' and 'GW White Knights' then the discussion will be all the better for it. .

Please

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

 BryllCream wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

Few people, if any, are raging. Dissent, disagreement and debate does not mean rage.

 BryllCream wrote:

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

It also attracts the true believers who feel they must defend the faith.

Or maybe it's not about GW rage or white knights. Maybe it's where people can discuss what they want and it's okay for them to hold the position they want as long as they don't violate forum rules.

Everyone who really like 40k should be happy that the fighting stays in Dakka Discussions and not in any of the 13 sub forums that are actually about GW's games. Separation of arguments from the sub forums in this manner is a good thing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

It's outrageous that people discuss their opinions openly in the discussion section. It is even more outrageous that Mods have an opinion that is not in line with your own!

People who think GW is failing them as customers aren't making it up. It is how they feel. When someone's feelings are not in line with your own it is not flaming, especially when they back up their opinions with clearly thought out arguments.

 BryllCream wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

The Dakka Discussion sub-forum may as well be renamed "GW Flaming". This thread has the exact same as every other thread:

You can rescind that to saying "the entirety of Dakka forums". Mods even encourage it.

The tactics/general 40k forums tend to be much more positive. I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

The question is whether Dakka Discussions is really full of haters mindlessly hating GW or if that's just your very personal, subjective observation.

 BryllCream wrote:
I think it's just the Dakka Discussions sub-forum that particularly attracts people afflicted by the rare and babbling disorder known as GW rage.

Possibly, although you have to admit the other side of the coin, the people who defend GW regardless are often just as bad. And a lot of people in the middle get cast as either one or other of these types.

Including yourself in this very thread. Which is why that general approach to debate fails.

I notice your earlier post that you have never seen a non-GW model that was both as good-looking as, and priced lower than GW.

Try swinging by the Dreamforge games thread if you want a pretty unanimous example of a technically superior product at a lower price. That's not even my personal company of choice, there, but I recognise good stuff when I see it.

There's a whole world of awesome minis out there. Most of them are almost as expensive as GW, that is generally true apart from a few exceptions.

People who support those alternatives are best served by promoting them, rather than attacking GW.

*glances at thread title* Whoa, this got OT pretty quick. I don't really have anything else to add other than my earlier post.