Last month, former University of North Carolina assistant dean of students Melinda Manning, three students and one former student filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights on behalf of themselves and 64 other unnamed sexual assault survivors, alleging that university officials pressured Manning into underreporting cases and violated the Campus Sexual Assault Victims' Bill of Rights, the Clery Act and the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), and equal opportunity mandates under Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, Titles VI and VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Now sophomore Landen Gambill, one of the students named in the case, says she's being punished by the Office of Student Conduct for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking to the press about her sexual assault.
.......
On January 29th, 10 days after news broke about the OCR case, Landen received an email from Elizabeth Ireland, the Graduate & Professional Schools Student Attorney General, who wrote that she "received a report of a possible violation of the Honor Code on which you are listed as the reporting party." Since Landen knew she hadn't done anything wrong — she hadn't even (and still hasn't) publicly identified her rapist, even though he lives across the street from her on campus — she ignored the warning and continued to tell her story.
......
Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes.
"This type of gross injustice is the reason why UNC students are speaking out and demanding answers," Landen told us. "The reason why I'm so vocal about this isn't because I just want justice for my case. I want to make sure no one else has to go through this if they want to report an assault to the university."
The question I come away with is why the nine circles of hell are schools dealing with felony grade criminal charges /internally/? I'm just a midwest jarhead but it seems to me that rape charges are abit out of the jurisdiction of a panel comprised of undergrad and postgrad students with some faculty. Given what just happened in Penn State though it wouldn't shock me terribly that a school is playing "CYA" as much as they can with just about everything.
Well most Campus Police officers are actual cops, at least here in CO they are, but it's not even rentacops dealing with these rape accusations. It's a panel of STUDENTS.
Guys... some campus police ARE accredidated(sp?) Police institutions.
Campus organizations/faculties should have NO bearings/jurisdiction on this at all.
There was a story somewhere where the faculties made a student's life hell after he was accused of rape. He was able to prove otherwise, but that didn't change the original decision.
Anyhoo... it really should be addressed by the Police.
I know the police at Arizona State are 'real' police. Also, I don't blame the victims, but why in the world would you LET your rape be 'handled' by an 'Honor Court' instead of a court of law? It seems to me that as soon as I heard the words "Honor Court" I would be hightailing it straight to the nearest City or State Police Precinct off campus to report a felony, and possibly a lawyer's office about civil damages.
Well, I suppose if you'd been through something traumatic like that, and stuff was happening, you might go along with the flow of events if it seemed like some sort of sensible resolution was coming. She doesn't seem to be "letting" them do this now, since she's gone public about it.
Very odd case. I can't see why someone talking about this is the university's business. It's between the two people and the law.
So re-reading it almost sounds like a non-story. The Honor Court thing is completely student run and has no relevancy to the actual court trial. It could be as simple as something like there being a clause in the Office of Student Conduct that states any interaction with a police matter results in an Honor Court trial.
Overall it seems strange and I'm guessing there is more to the story.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: So re-reading it almost sounds like a non-story. The Honor Court thing is completely student run and has no relevancy to the actual court trial. It could be as simple as something like there being a clause in the Office of Student Conduct that states any interaction with a police matter results in an Honor Court trial.
Overall it seems strange and I'm guessing there is more to the story.
Honor Court trial is a BAD thing. That's the issue.
I'm guessing an Honor Court is similar to the student-run judiciary committees in my school where if you were involved in any legal trouble (off-campus or not) they would decide if any further action from the school was necessary. Pretty common I believe.
Frazzled wrote: Crimes on campus should be the subject of the local police (AND NOT CAMPUS RENT A COPS). The college should have no business being involved...AT ALL.
Lots of Colleges have real Cops. The Junior College I went to had a jurisdiction half the size of the city it was located in, and my current College's police force is the same size as the town.
But yeah, the College itself has no business dealing with these charges.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Wth is an honor code? Or court for that matter? Looks to me that they want to sweep this under the rug by getting rid of everyone involved.
An honor code is a set of rules that people belonging to a voluntary association agree to abide by on pain of expulsion from that association. Claiming that you were raped does not relive you of your obligations under that agreement. If you conduct yourself in violation of the code, usually in the determination of your peers, you will be expelled. The artcle OP quotes (but fails to cite) doesn't bother to clarify what behavior potentially violated the honor code. OP does mention, however, the unreliability of the source.
whembly wrote: Guys... some campus police ARE accredidated(sp?) Police institutions.
.
That means nothing to me. I don't want Barney Fife in charge of solving a crime. Real police please.
On SUNY campuses they're state troopers.
Yes and my church hires AIPD. So what? They have to have the organization. Unless the State of NY is given jurisdiction, its not relevant. Now, having said that, that may be the case there.
But these are two separate issues I think. You have the criminal aspect then the student life aspect (getting expelled from campus or dorm that sort of thing). For the student life aspect, there's no good outcome here. Sometimes people are actually innocent.
whembly wrote: Guys... some campus police ARE accredidated(sp?) Police institutions.
.
That means nothing to me. I don't want Barney Fife in charge of solving a crime. Real police please.
That may be true in your great state of Texas... but, some (not all) University Police are staffed with competent folks. o.O
Not my university's security officers...
They're all incompetent feths...
We had a guy who was in college for set design and thatrical production or some such crap... One night he decided to get drunk and pull an insane prank on one of our fraternity brothers while he was at another college partying (would be returning later that night). As he drank pure vodka from a gatorade bottle, he proceeded to remove the door number, move it 1 room down, drywalled over the door, painted it to match the rest of the hallway. Security stopped by twice while he was doing it, the first time they found it funny he was pulling the prank (a blatant violation of the school's rules), and didn't smell the vodka on him. Then because he forgot about the kid's posters, he climbed on to the roof of the building, and slid into the window and stole the posters from the door. Proceeded to climb back out and get them up on the door 1 room down. Security came back because there were reports of someone on the roof, again didn't think anything of this...
the kid who was being pranked came back sober and started ripping the wall down, and got written up, and then got the rest of the fraternity in trouble except the 1 person that wasn't on campus all weekend (had receipts for gas purchases, etc...), and wasn't on the video they made while doing this whole thing...
Suffice it to say that's just a single anecdote, but there have been several officers getting fired for buying booze for students, letting students into buildings when they weren't on the 24 hr access list, and various other stupid things.
DutchKillsRambo wrote: So re-reading it almost sounds like a non-story. The Honor Court thing is completely student run and has no relevancy to the actual court trial. It could be as simple as something like there being a clause in the Office of Student Conduct that states any interaction with a police matter results in an Honor Court trial.
Overall it seems strange and I'm guessing there is more to the story.
Yea, and that everyone is held confidential or such. The accuser could have violated that. Like I said, if you remember that sometimes people are innocent (I know it burns for me to say that), then commencing operation Pillory in the Public Square is not right either.
Visualize "the victim" going around saying you (Mrs. Innocent) got him drunk and raped him? Lets imagine there's a criminal investigation going on but nothing has moved forward. What if that person tried to get you thrown out of your dorm room, out of school itself?
Now flip it. The victim sees the police called in. Yet her attacker is in plain sight, the school star jock. He's still there, seemingly invulnerable. Nothing is being done! So you speak out, and the school closes ranks against their star jock and starts threatening YOU.
Yerg.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Depends on the school I guess. All the colleges here in Cali that I have experience with have real full on police forces.
Sufficient to investigate a rape? Horse gak.
The colleges I went to in Cali had Barney Fife's. Good for writing a ticket. Not good for anything else.
Frazzled wrote: if you remember that sometimes people are innocent (I know it burns for me to say that)
Nevermind that, this is a rape story. Of course there was a rape. Saying otherwise means you hate women and want to rape them. That's right, now you're a rapist -- and you know what it means if you try and deny it.
In all seriousness, please see how the article refers to the mystery man as "her rapist." As determined by which court of law again?
Frazzled wrote: if you remember that sometimes people are innocent (I know it burns for me to say that)
Nevermind that, this is a rape story. Of course there was a rape. Saying otherwise means you hate women and want to rape them. That's right, now you're a rapist -- and you know what it means if you try and deny it.
In all seriousness, please see how the article refers to the mystery man as "her rapist." As determined by which court of law again?
That does go back to KM's warning at the beginning about Jezebel as a source...
While women's rights isn't equal with men, looking at tumblr for posts marked misandry have lead to hours of laughter on my part... And with that, I'm off to the camp where they send the "women-hating men"...
Frazzled wrote: if you remember that sometimes people are innocent (I know it burns for me to say that)
Nevermind that, this is a rape story. Of course there was a rape. Saying otherwise means you hate women and want to rape them. That's right, now you're a rapist -- and you know what it means if you try and deny it.
In all seriousness, please see how the article refers to the mystery man as "her rapist." As determined by which court of law again?
Of course it was. I'm not denying it. BURN HIM! See I flow like water baby because me likes da wimminz.
ASU certainly does. It's an actual honest to god Police department, whose jurisdiction just happens to be the college campus.
I am not faulting the police officers. But they are not going to have the resources and experience in handling major crimes.
1. If you were the victim would you trust them to solve your crime?
2. They have a conflict of interest, to protect the school's reputation.
3. If they were experienced in this area, maybe it would be wise not to go to that school? Jeezh
hotsauceman1 wrote: Wth is an honor code? Or court for that matter? Looks to me that they want to sweep this under the rug by getting rid of everyone involved.
An honor code is a set of rules that people belonging to a voluntary association agree to abide by on pain of expulsion from that association. Claiming that you were raped does not relive you of your obligations under that agreement. If you conduct yourself in violation of the code, usually in the determination of your peers, you will be expelled. The artcle OP quotes (but fails to cite) doesn't bother to clarify what behavior potentially violated the honor code. OP does mention, however, the unreliability of the source.
Frazzled wrote: if you remember that sometimes people are innocent (I know it burns for me to say that)
Nevermind that, this is a rape story. Of course there was a rape. Saying otherwise means you hate women and want to rape them. That's right, now you're a rapist -- and you know what it means if you try and deny it.
In all seriousness, please see how the article refers to the mystery man as "her rapist." As determined by which court of law again?
Of course it was. I'm not denying it. BURN HIM! See I flow like water baby because me likes da wimminz.
ASU certainly does. It's an actual honest to god Police department, whose jurisdiction just happens to be the college campus.
I am not faulting the police officers. But they are not going to have the resources and experience in handling major crimes.
1. If you were the victim would you trust them to solve your crime?
2. They have a conflict of interest, to protect the school's reputation.
3. If they were experienced in this area, maybe it would be wise not to go to that school? Jeezh
I don't know about that.
College campuses would have their fair share of crime. Crimes related to Alcohol and Drugs(of which Rape is one of them) would seem like their speciality.
Rape is one of those crimes that goes hand in hand with drunken frat parties. So I would say that College Police departments would be specially trained to handle it as it comes with the territory so to speak.
College campuses would have their fair share of crime. Crimes related to Alcohol and Drugs(of which Rape is one of them) would seem like their specialty.
Rape is one of those crimes that goes hand in hand with drunken frat parties. So I would say that College Police departments would be specially trained to handle it as it comes with the territory so to speak.
As a drunken frat boy, I'm offended that you would immediately assume that rape goes hand in hand with my parties... I mean hell you and your gf (if you have one) could go home from the bar while drunk one night, you two could have consensual relations that got a little rough and the next morning she could theoretically charge you with rape, simply because of the fact that since she was under the influence of booze she couldn't give proper consent.
And yes, that situation could happen as well. But thankfully the police are trained to handle that because it comes with the territory of drinking and college.
And yes, that situation could happen as well. But thankfully the police are trained to handle that because it comes with the territory of drinking and college.
Rape is one of those crimes that goes hand in hand with drunken frat parties. So I would say that College Police departments would be specially trained to handle it as it comes with the territory so to speak.
I'm just saying its not odd for the college police to be handling the issue. They are usually full on police, no different from the city police force.
I still have to disagree with that.
1. They have less resources.
2. Seriously how many rapes would they have investigated and solved? Do they have actual detectives? (if so, as I said, you might think about that before going there....)
3. Regular police don't have the cover up incentive they do.
It is illegal to posess and sell here last I checked.
Edit: Ok, its illegal to sell it here. Posession as far as I can tell requires a permit and it is not allowed for human consumption. But my google-fu is weak today so that could be wrong.
I'm just saying its not odd for the college police to be handling the issue. They are usually full on police, no different from the city police force.
I still have to disagree with that.
1. They have less resources.
2. Seriously how many rapes would they have investigated and solved? Do they have actual detectives? (if so, as I said, you might think about that before going there....)
3. Regular police don't have the cover up incentive they do.
Frazzled you seem to be under the impression that said campus police are employed by the school, and not by the state. As per my example in NY, all the campus police are state troopers, with all the tools and resources given to any other state troopers. On any kind of large, state run campus the police are an autonomous force, not beholden to deans. Smaller school could be different, but then I don't think they are the ones actively investigating serious charges. Some campuses are the size of small cities, and they have a commensurate police force that isn't run by the school. Of course people in high power could pull strings to make a rape case go away, but then so can mayors.
"Honor courts" are like your company's HR. They aren't actually there for you. Their job is to preserve university prestige. They are not your friend, they are not on your side.
Edit: Ok, its illegal to sell it here. Posession as far as I can tell requires a permit and it is not allowed for human consumption. But my google-fu is weak today so that could be wrong.
Who's gonna check Just get it out of state and sneak it in...
Anyone can get Cali weed. That is to say, totally a different person than me can get that stuff.
Everclear is awesome because you mix a shot or two in a cup of anything else and it only takes one drink and some change to get FETHED UP. It's actually better than drinking a ton of other alcoholic beverages. I usually don't even wake up with a hangover. It's not a horrid tasting shot either.
Edit: Ok, its illegal to sell it here. Posession as far as I can tell requires a permit and it is not allowed for human consumption. But my google-fu is weak today so that could be wrong.
Who's gonna check Just get it out of state and sneak it in...
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Anyone can get Cali weed. That is to say, totally a different person than me can get that stuff.
Everclear is awesome because you mix a shot or two in a cup of anything else and it only takes one drink and some change to get FETHED UP. It's actually better than drinking a ton of other alcoholic beverages. I usually don't even wake up with a hangover. It's not a horrid tasting shot either.
There's people who claim they get Cali weed and there's actually walking through a dispensary. YMMV depending on where you live in the states though.
And if you like Everclear all the more power to you. I wouldn't drink it again if it meant never drinking again. Ok thats a lie. Its still terrible though
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Frazzled you seem to be under the impression that said campus police are employed by the school, and not by the state. As per my example in NY, all the campus police are state troopers, with all the tools and resources given to any other state troopers. On any kind of large, state run campus the police are an autonomous force, not beholden to deans.
Thats wrong. Maybe in NY, but not other states. California for example.
Again just hiring police doesn't make you an effective police department. Unless they have no affiliationw ith the school whatsover and are part of the State or city of X, etc. then they are undersupported for the crimes we're talking about.
Frankly saying they are state troopers doesn't help me. Maybe NY state troopers are different. Texas state troopers give tickets and investigate car crashes. CHP was the same.
Edit: Ok, its illegal to sell it here. Posession as far as I can tell requires a permit and it is not allowed for human consumption. But my google-fu is weak today so that could be wrong.
Who's gonna check Just get it out of state and sneak it in...
Its bad if you get caught with it.
Again, how are you going to get caught? I may or may have not been bringing Everclear across the Indiana/Ohio border before... never been caught. You get caught when a cop car sees you cross the state line, and like 45 minutes later you come back, he'll pull you over because you didn't pay the state liquor tax on it... But even still.
Though we're getting off topic, back to the topic at hand. Is there any other news report on this besides Jezebel?
DutchKillsRambo wrote: Frazzled you seem to be under the impression that said campus police are employed by the school, and not by the state. As per my example in NY, all the campus police are state troopers, with all the tools and resources given to any other state troopers. On any kind of large, state run campus the police are an autonomous force, not beholden to deans.
Thats wrong. Maybe in NY, but not other states. California for example.
Again just hiring police doesn't make you an effective police department. Unless they have no affiliationw ith the school whatsover and are part of the State or city of X, etc. then they are undersupported for the crimes we're talking about.
Frankly saying they are state troopers doesn't help me. Maybe NY state troopers are different. Texas state troopers give tickets and investigate car crashes. CHP was the same.
By your standards no city has an adequate police force then? I'm sorry I just don't follow what you're calling for here. My point was just because it says "Campus Police" on the side of the cruiser doesn't necessarily mean that they are under the direct orders of the school. Many large state run schools are like that. And for smaller schools when a serious crime happens (ie rape) they tend to then involve outside authorities that are beyond their purview.
And in NY troopers are the highest authority besides Feds with equipment, training and salary to boot. They're above any other regional jurisdiction. Some states are similar, others not so I dunno.
-Ayah in Texas DPS are generally just highway patrol. They may do some other duties but not too much. Not to bersmirch them. I don't envy that job.
-In many jurisdictions colleges have their own police force and they are a separate jurisdictional unit (I'm talking state schools here). They do take their orders from the school.
UC schools used to be like that. At least the Texas school I went to was like that. It may have changed since.
-We'll just have to accept that different states have different frameworks here.
I find I'm a bit biased against girls calling "rape" in college. Not out of being a douchebag, but because I had two friends in college who suffered due to girls who cried false rape. One friend was an RA and flirted with a girl he had no interest in. She pressed him for sex, he refused, she cried rape. He lost his job and was forced to change dorms. Another friend got horribly drunk and went to spend time with friends from class and play monopoly. One girl there talked him into sleeping with her, then she felt guilty about it because she had joined a Christian club, so she accused him of raping her, when technically, by law, she raped him. He was almost expelled from school for her actions.
However, if this girl has proof she was raped and the school is trying to stifle her, the school needs to be sued. If there is no proof of actual rape, I have a hard time siding with her, through my friends' experiences.
My heart goes out to true rape victims though. But I hope for a special place in hell for anyone who falsely claims rape and ruins somebody's life with their actions.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Wth is an honor code? Or court for that matter? Looks to me that they want to sweep this under the rug by getting rid of everyone involved.
An honor code is a set of rules that people belonging to a voluntary association agree to abide by on pain of expulsion from that association. Claiming that you were raped does not relive you of your obligations under that agreement. If you conduct yourself in violation of the code, usually in the determination of your peers, you will be expelled. The artcle OP quotes (but fails to cite) doesn't bother to clarify what behavior potentially violated the honor code. OP does mention, however, the unreliability of the source.
Gentlemen are stirring as this discussion of police efforts on university campuses is, I think this "honor board" which apparently has some form of judicial power apparently is far more concerning then any form of cop, renta or otherwise present on campus.
Oh, absolutely - the "honor board" is clownshoes at best. As several people have posted earlier, this is a matter for real police from the start, where "real police" is an actual law enforcement officer - which campus police possibly are, and they should be bypassed if not.
What is "Intimidating" did she threaten him or what?
And why is an Honor Board run by students and not staff? What are these students accreditation?
I mean, Even in college i would trust any of my peers with my goldfish, let alone my future.
The key is "apparently" and the only thing at the moment that makes it "apparent" is an article that seems rather vague on that point. Perhaps intentionally?
To be fair, all the honor court is judging is whether the honor code has been violated. The police are hardly capable of that.
hotsauceman1 wrote: And why is an Honor Board run by students and not staff?
Because students, staff, and faculty make up the community in question and the issue is whether the standards of that community have been violated. Pretty reasonable.
So basically;
Step 1; Girl accuses long time ex-BF of rape.
Step 2;School finds no evidence.
Step 3;Girl goes on to defame man.
Step 4;Girl whines when making harmful allegations is considered bad.
Step 5;The Internet reacts
Spyral wrote: So basically; Step 1; Girl accuses long time ex-BF of rape. Step 2;School finds no evidence. Step 3;Girl goes on to defame man. Step 4;Girl whines when making harmful allegations is considered bad. Step 5;The Internet reacts
Step 2 is what I'm questioning here. Also this one girl is part of a collation of 67 students at UNC going to the Attorney General over the school's "cover up" policy on rape. So... wrong story chief.
What likely happened here is the school got concerned about false rape claims and started this program to reduce them.
Then the unintended consequence happened where the "honor board" started displaying a pattern where they seemed to think an awful lot of rapes were fake and they seemed to be doing it with less and less evidence.
A well intentioned policy can still become an abusive pattern. Both rape and fake rape claims suck for everyone involved, let's be adults and try to discuss this without "picking a side" or trying to be the bigger victim.
Rented Tritium wrote: What likely happened here is the school got concerned about false rape claims and started this program to reduce them.
Then the unintended consequence happened where the "honor board" started displaying a pattern where they seemed to think an awful lot of rapes were fake and they seemed to be doing it with less and less evidence.
A well intentioned policy can still become an abusive pattern. Both rape and fake rape claims suck for everyone involved, let's be adults and try to discuss this without "picking a side" or trying to be the bigger victim.
I think we've all learned a valuable lesson here. If someone is a victim of rape at a school, its best they just go ahead and burn down the school in righteous indignation.*
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Gentlemen are stirring as this discussion of police efforts on university campuses is, I think this "honor board" which apparently has some form of judicial power apparently is far more concerning then any form of cop, renta or otherwise present on campus.
That's kind of a shame, KK, because it's not an accurate assessment. The only power an honor board has is over people who voluntarily submit to its authority and only to the extent that they voluntarily submit. In the case of a university, a student submits to an honor board by choosing to go to a school with an honor code. That honor board only has the power to determine whether or not a student has violated the honor code and, if the board determines there has been a violation, how said determination will effect the student's enrollment and/or record as a student at that university.
Committing rape is likely a presumptive violation of the honor code. If a student says another student raped her, the honor board has to determine whether that allegation is true only as a matter of determining whether the accused violated the honor code. The finding of an honor board in this matter is in no way binding on a criminal court. It's rather obvious, I should think, that the alleged victim would as a primary concern report a rape to the actual police. The honor board in no way stands between someone who wants to report a crime and the police. If the members of the honor board are pressuring the reporting party not to contact the police, as a matter of policy or otherwise, then there is a real concern.
But the article doesn't mention any of this. Landen is not said to have contacted the police. Landen is not said to have been pressured by a fellow student or any employee of the university to not contact the police.
In fact the narrative of the article doesn't even make sense.
On January 29th, 10 days after news broke about the OCR case, Landen received an email from Elizabeth Ireland, the Graduate & Professional Schools Student Attorney General, who wrote that she "received a report of a possible violation of the Honor Code on which you are listed as the reporting party."
So Landen is the reporting party. Landen received notice that Ireland received the report which Landen filed.
Since Landen knew she hadn't done anything wrong — she hadn't even (and still hasn't) publicly identified her rapist, even though he lives across the street from her on campus — she ignored the warning and continued to tell her story.
In what way is notice that Ireland received the report that Landen filed a warning about Landen's behavior? Something is missing here.
The article presumes a rape occurred, presumes Landen is a "rape survivor," presumes that Landen's ex-boyfriend is a rapist, and presumes UNC covers up rape.
Each of the presumptions is supported by no evidence. They are simply allegations being treated as facts for the sake of saleable outrage.
"The louder he spoke of his honour, the faster we counted the spoons."
So to look at the opposite side things, the accuser, not having gone to the police probably does not have a case, but has in the meantime been issuing some kind of threats or at any rate murmurings about another student constituting a defamation of character and it is this that the Honor Board is going to investigate.
Kilkrazy wrote: the accuser, not having gone to the police probably does not have a case, but has in the meantime been issuing some kind of threats or at any rate murmurings about another student constituting a defamation of character and it is this that the Honor Board is going to investigate.
As far as I can tell, and it is difficult because the article is patently deficient, there are at least two matters before the honor board. One was reported to them by Landen herself. I suppose this is the allegation of sexual assault? The other matter is as against Landen, seemingly involving what we're calling defamation.
Well, it seems to me that the function of the Honor Board is a bit like the Dakkadakka rules.
In other words, by joining you accept the requirement to follow the rules and the arbitration of the Board, though genuine criminal cases would obviously take precedence for investigation by the police.
By not making a criminal complaint, the complainant is therefore subject to the Honor Board rules.
Even though she has not named the supposed rapist, clearly lots of people would know his identity since they were long-term boyfriend and girlfriend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes, there seem to be two complaints involved but it is not clear what they are. From what I can make out, one of them is about the defamation/intimidation of the boyfriend.
Kilkrazy wrote: By not making a criminal complaint, the complainant is therefore subject to the Honor Board rules.
She is subject to the honor code for no other reason than she submitted to it by choosing to go to UNC. She would not cease to be subject to the honor code by virtue of filing a report with the police. The police and criminal courts deal with one body of rules applicable to a certain jurisdiction; the honor board deals with another body of rules applicable to a different jurisdiction. The persons and facts related to this case are simultaneously subject to each of these jurisdictions as a separate matter.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: College Rape Survivor Faces Potential Expulsion For ‘Intimidating’ Her Rapist
Alleghed rapist. Now we shouldnt astart getting into gender role biases but we must be open to the possibility that Ms Gambill either was or was not sexually assaulted by anyone.
It wont be the first time a real sexual assault victim is ignored, it also wont be the first case of hysterical finger pointing by a spurned female at an innocent man.
The courts have to decide this first, then the press can have their say.
Jezebel is always a little suspect as a source, but meine gott.
Possibly the accurate bit of the OP. I don't know the Jezebel, but Ms Gambill was touted as a 'rape victim', she is more accurately the claimed victim of an alleged sexual assault, notice the alleged rather than proven, and notice that its a sexual assault claim, not rape. The difference between a rape claim and a sexual assault claim can be as different as as slight scuffle and attempted murder. In fact a lot of minor inconsiderations can result in a sexual assault charge, whereas rape is rape.
article wrote:
Now sophomore Landen Gambill, one of the students named in the case, says she's being punished by the Office of Student Conduct for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking to the press about her sexual assault.
Actually that is a serious problem, for the faculty. While Ms Gambill did not name the victim once a journalist has half a story the rest can be found out easily enough. If the alleged attacker is in the dock the press has the right to report about it, if he is convicted then they can rake his name through the mud, but without fair evidence and the chance to defend himself in court of law the accused is entitled to a measure of protection.
Ms Gambill mentioned that she spoke to the press, it is less clear if she made a full statement to the police. That would be the first point, if so wait until the police can come up with a charge, if she hasn't there is no story beyond a possible case of slander.
Alleged victims should talk to the profile and if needs be seek professional support or support from family, and not tell stories to the press.
article wrote:
On January 29th, 10 days after news broke about the OCR case, Landen received an email from Elizabeth Ireland, the Graduate & Professional Schools Student Attorney General, who wrote that she "received a report of a possible violation of the Honor Code on which you are listed as the reporting party." Since Landen knew she hadn't done anything wrong — she hadn't even (and still hasn't) publicly identified her rapist, even though he lives across the street from her on campus — she ignored the warning and continued to tell her story.
Idiotic reporting. Ms Gambill had done wrong, she gave pointers by which a journalist could track down an alleged sexual attacker in lieu of seeking justice through proper channels. She might be a victim, that is as yet unproven, but until the alleged attacker is properly processed for justice so might he claim.
article wrote:
Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes.
Possibly again yes. Was she raped or 'only' sexually assaulted, the article says rape but quotes sexual assault. That is sloppy journalism. For all we know sexual assault could be something like bottom pinching while drunk in the student union bar. A lot of sexual assaults are like that, no I am not condoning that behaviour, but again those are not rapes.
article wrote:
"This type of gross injustice is the reason why UNC students are speaking out and demanding answers," Landen told us. "The reason why I'm so vocal about this isn't because I just want justice for my case. I want to make sure no one else has to go through this if they want to report an assault to the university."
Last time I checked sexual assault, and rape are crimes. If she has a case got to the police, get a crime incident report number. If she won't go to the police, she should SHUT THE FETH UP.
Leave justice to something other than hearsay.
The question I come away with is why the nine circles of hell are schools dealing with felony grade criminal charges /internally/? I'm just a midwest jarhead but it seems to me that rape charges are abit out of the jurisdiction of a panel comprised of undergrad and postgrad students with some faculty. Given what just happened in Penn State though it wouldn't shock me terribly that a school is playing "CYA" as much as they can with just about everything.
You are getting the word rape from a hyped up article. The actual alleged offenses are most likely not full on rapes. Rape can and does happen at university but a full on rape would and should be taken very seriously at the highest level. It is far more likely the alleged sexual assaults are a blend of relatively minor unsolicited sexual indiscretions by horny teenagers with no social considerations and too much alcohol, and a number are likely to be ballooned reports by hysterical females overreacting to people bumping into them, unwanted ex-flings and bunny boilers.
An honor board is more like a court than a police force. A police investigation is basically the process of obtaining evidence that a court will consider. An honor board, like a court, will consider evidence -- but it doesn't "investigate" in the sense of the police.
Manchu wrote: An honor board is more like a court than a police force. A police investigation is basically the process of obtaining evidence that a court will consider. An honor board, like a court, will consider evidence -- but it doesn't "investigate" in the sense of the police.
More point to say. if you have an actual crime to report, take it to the police, not the press.
Assuming the complainant had made a criminal accusation to the police, would the honour board wait for the result of the ensuing investigation before conducting their trial.
Orlanth wrote: Was she raped or 'only' sexually assaulted, the article says rape but quotes sexual assault. That is sloppy journalism.
I agree that the journalism is very poor in this sense. The background is that in some jurisdictions rape is a colloquial term for a degree of sexual assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Assuming the complainant had made a criminal accusation to the police, would the honour board wait for the result of the ensuing investigation before conducting their trial.
I doubt it. Landen did make a report to the police in this case. I don't know what the eventual result was. But in the meantime, her honor code violation claim against the man she accused of raping her was dismissed by the honor board. And since then, sexual assault cases have been removed from the honor board's jurisdiction.
Orlanth wrote: You are getting the word rape from a hyped up article. The actual alleged offenses are most likely not full on rapes. Rape can and does happen at university but a full on rape would and should be taken very seriously at the highest level.
You point out several times that we don't really have a lot of information, and then, in the same post, are fully willing to totally dismiss it out of hand as "most likely not a full on rape".
Better make a new space on here for "full on rape", as opposed to, well, other rapes.
Salazar was arguing that guns don’t make campuses safer, and that there are other security measures in place that could prevent unnecessary shootings.
“It’s why we have call boxes, it’s why we have safe zones, it’s why we have the whistles. Because you just don’t know who you’re gonna be shooting at,” the Democrat from Thornton said.
"And you don't know if you feel like you're gonna be raped, or if you feel like someone's been following you around or if you feel like you're in trouble when you may actually not be, that you pop out that gun and you pop ... pop a round at somebody."
Because A.) His comments have nothing to do with rape, per se, rather then gun control; and B.) I didn't make the graphic, I just googled "types of rape" in image searches and that seemed pretty solid.
Ouze wrote: Because A.) His comments have nothing to do with rape, per se, rather then gun control; and B.) I didn't make the graphic, I just googled "types of rape" in image searches and that seemed pretty solid.
Fair enough...
Just pointing out that all pols, regardless of party, put foot in mouth all the time.
I would have preferred that graphic not have had the GOP header on it just to avoid this discussion we're now having, but hey, I'd also prefer to be getting a sensual massage from Kate Upton as well. Neither of those have yet come to fruition.
Ouze wrote: I would have preferred that graphic not have had the GOP header on it just to avoid this discussion we're now having, but hey, I'd also prefer to be getting a sensual massage from Kate Upton as well. Neither of those have yet come to fruition.
C'mon buddy... you & me need to work on getting that sensual massage from Ms. Kate Upton. I'll be a good sport and let you have that massage first.
Kilkrazy wrote: Assuming the complainant had made a criminal accusation to the police, would the honour board wait for the result of the ensuing investigation before conducting their trial.
Not usually.
UNC is coming under a lot of flak because usually these honor boards are made up of individuals who just get presented the bare minimum of facts rather than the whole story. I know that UNCG has a habit of the honor boards relying almost entirely upon testaments of character rather than potential criminal evidence.
Apparently standard procedure for a rape or sexual assault is you report it to the University, not to law enforcement. Which if true is the second stupidest thing I've ever heard.
The Honor System no longer claims to be equipped to handle a question of sexual assault. Sexual assault was removed from its jurisdiction in August of 2012.
This "Honor System" needs to be smashed along with it's attendant student judicial system. Immediately and with no hesitation. Regardless of Landen making a false accusation or not.
However I still feel like we're missing the ACTUAL story by focusing on whether Landen was raped or not.
Gambill, Clark, current student Andrea Pino, and anonymous female student and former associate dean of students Melinda Manning all filed a complaint against the University with the U.S. Department of Education in January that alleged sexual assault victims and their advocates were being discriminated against on campus.
"I'm a survivor as well," Clark, who graduated in 2011, told The News. "When I was raped, I was met with an awful response. They blamed me for my experience."
Details of the federal complaint were published in the Daily Tar Heel, and revealed that Manning resigned from her post because she was instructed to underreport the number of campus sex assaults.
Currently waiting for a friend of mine who's a Duke grad to call me back so I can get full details on Honor Court, and on what goes on on the campus. Hopefully she'll be enlightening.
If the school wants to make rules like "if you are convicted of making a false report, you can be expelled" that is fine with me. That means the real justice system is investigating and the school is just going by what they say.
The school should not, under any circumstances, be convening witch hunts to harass people who report rapes. Cases like this reduce rape reports.
Rented Tritium wrote: If the school wants to make rules like "if you are convicted of making a false report, you can be expelled" that is fine with me. That means the real justice system is investigating and the school is just going by what they say.
The school should not, under any circumstances, be convening witch hunts to harass people who report rapes. Cases like this reduce rape reports.
1. She didnt report a rape, she reported a sexual assault. All comments of 'rape' are from press ballooning.
2. She talked to the press and the faculty, there is no mention or indication of police involvement, only press involvement.
3. I have read no accounts of the alleged attacker being questioned arrested or placed on police bail. But the press know which street he lives in and are now hungry for a story.
I see a major civil rights issue here. The alleged perpetrator may perhaps be actually guilty of a sexual assault' which could be as minor as failing to chart her up with crude language, or 'playful' bottom pinching. Even so he is now bwecause of trial by media a 'rapist'.
Is he in danger of idenfication? - that is a firm yes.
Is he therefore in danger of discrimination or victimisation or vigilante violence? - that I am not sxure about, but if I were him I would get a good lawyer, get out of town or both.
Too bad that feths up his education plans, and lawyers are expensive.
He might be completely innocent, but is already a de facto 'rapist' even though no rape has been reported except by the press.
In most states, "rape" and "sexual assault" are the same thing. The law calls it one or the other depending on the whims of lawmakers 200 years ago, but you are talking about the same thing.
Rented Tritium wrote: If the school wants to make rules like "if you are convicted of making a false report, you can be expelled" that is fine with me. That means the real justice system is investigating and the school is just going by what they say.
The school should not, under any circumstances, be convening witch hunts to harass people who report rapes. Cases like this reduce rape reports.
Rented Tritium wrote: In most states, "rape" and "sexual assault" are the same thing. The law calls it one or the other depending on the whims of lawmakers 200 years ago, but you are talking about the same thing.
Rape is Sexual Assault, but not all Sexual Assault is Rape.
As was pointed out, it could simply be harrassment taken way too far.
While bad, its not Rape and doesn't deserve treatment as such.
Rented Tritium wrote: In most states, "rape" and "sexual assault" are the same thing. The law calls it one or the other depending on the whims of lawmakers 200 years ago, but you are talking about the same thing.
Rape is Sexual Assault, but not all Sexual Assault is Rape.
As was pointed out, it could simply be harrassment taken way too far.
While bad, its not Rape and doesn't deserve treatment as such.
Can I just say something for the record: I witnessed a rape and the ensuing coverup at my uni, and I'm going to declare what happened right here right now because this has been covered up long enough.
in spring of last year a young woman was raped, possibly gang raped on the floor I lived on: floor 2 of twin towers east dorm of Marshall University. I heard her scream for her rapist(s) to stop from my dorm room. I called the campus police, and they to my knowledge never came. I encountered the victim the next day, and she said that because the description of the attackers were too generic and racially charged to even investigate further (the description she gave of them were that they were black men with dark short hair) the university has covered this up and I am now posting this on the internet for everyone to see because I can't sleep well at night knowing I could have done more to stop them, maybe by posting this someone with the authority to prosecute this case will see this and take the action I didn't to seek justice for the victim.
As I posted yesterday, Landen did report being raped to the police. She brought an honor code violation charge against her alleged rapist separately. That charge was dismissed. The third matter is the honor code violation charge against her.
She seems to have two issues:
(1) She has joined a suit against the school which generally alleges that purported rape victims are blamed for the events underlying their accusations in a manner contrary to federal law. She says this was her experience with UNC as regarding her honor code violation charge against her alleged rapist.
(2) She believes that the honor code violation charge against her is another aspect of UNC's alleged tendency to "blame the victim" (as we say around here).
As to sexual assault and rape: it is true that they are not strictly synonymous. The key element of the crime of rape is generally penetration. In some jurisdictions that do not define a separate crime of rape, penetration is an element of a certain degree of sexual assault.
In this case, NC law does differentiate "rape" as a specific crime. Relevant article of the NC General Statues. But more generally speaking, yeah, different states use different specific terms.
whoops sorry, coulda sworn I pasted the link in there.
