I am an IG player and one of they guys at my local gaming place has started to bring 3 Helldrakes to each match...i tried the Quadgun emplacement, as well as lascannon teams with Bring it Down! but to no avail. Can i get some input on what you are using to bring them down? Thanks!

not to be a dick, but you play Guard.. You have cheap models who shouldnt much care about an AP3 flamer and you have access to Vendettas. Very easy solution.

Kinda hard to hold an objective when there are no troops left. That Vector strike pops a chimera each fkn time. I have dumped plasma fire into it....Quadguns, Fkn pask. I have not tried Vendettas yet though...the model itself is expensive as feth...any proxies you know of?

Proxies for a jetplane for an army modelled after an amalgamation of all the major armies of earth?.... I can't imagine there would be anything relevant anywhere.

You could take Hydras if Vendettas aren't an option.

Hydras are good...but i cant tell if its worth dropping the Heavy slots...Idk i never had an issue when he took one but three is driving me nuts

The best answer is the Vendetta though. They dominate the skies and can deliver scoring melta/plasma death where you need it.

choke its engines with more infantry,,,ala cheap targets you dont care about,if he ignores them,swarm his other forces,if he targets them,oh well,use the rest of your force.

LC Sabre guns and/or Vendettas. Sabre guns kill it with interceptor fire before it gets a shot, and we all know how awesome Vendettas are.

Helldrakes are too strong, just find a hole and crawl into it...

Just spam Hydras. You can take 3 Hydras in 1 HS slot for 225 points. Thats 12 S7 twinlinked shots at a range of 72inches. When they get close you can add the 3 hull mounted heavy bolter shots to the fulisade.

Good luck Heldrakes.

Thanks for the input guys, Ill test out both and see what works best.
Cheers

Sorry, but the one suggesting Hydras here obviously thinks that the tripple helldrake player will not have oblits to kill those hydras, and hb do not penetrate av12...

Tbh you need vendetta's as your airdefence will be targetted turn one by his heavy support...

Vendettas. IG have the most powerful, least costly, best anti flyer in the game. They can take 9 in a single force org. The eat helldrakes easily.

Space your models out, and don't leave anywhere for him to land after Vector Striking (which means he can't do it)

You have the advantage of having tons of models. Maybe using only vets isn't a good solution.

 Xadakk wrote:
I am an IG player and one of they guys at my local gaming place has started to bring 3 Helldrakes to each match...i tried the Quadgun emplacement, as well as lascannon teams with Bring it Down! but to no avail. Can i get some input on what you are using to bring them down? Thanks!

Holy feth, competitive local metagame much? If you don't feel like dropping a couple hundred dollars on Vendettas, I suggest just plain not fighting the guy.

Ouch thats quite cheesy, try making him play at a lower point range, 1k or 1.5k sees meq players stuck with fewer bit toys, whilst a guard army can shine at that level.
Other than that Vendettas are the flying cure all so far in 6th, If you don't want to shell out for 3 of them, try a mix of all the solutions people have brought up so far.

good luck tho.

at 1.5 k his dragons will even hit harder...

Massed fire is the only way you can kill them if you're not going to spend the money on the Vendettas. That, or like someone else suggested, ignore them and concentrate on wasting his ground forces. If he can't cap and you can it does't matter if he has 12 Drakes, you still win.

Vendettas are the first but more costly easy list-based solution. The second is taking platoons and spreading out, not leaving space for the Helldrakes to land behind your units (which means to Vector Strike you they'll have to fly off the table and not shoot). Spreading out also means they won't be able to kill off a scoring unit with each shot; if you space well you can usually limit template covering to 4-5 models. If a helldrake is only killing 4-5 guys out of a scoring unit, it's going to have a lot of trouble helping the CSM player win the game.

So glad I got 3 vendettas for Christmas. (Cue evil maniacal laughter, with pinky finger in corner of mouth).

LValx wrote:You have cheap models who shouldnt much care about an AP3 flamer and you have access to Vendettas. Very easy solution.

This is the best solution. Learn what displacement means, and you won't be bothered by them.

As for taking them down, lascannons do work, you're just being unlucky. You could also try a melta hedge. If you can get 6 meltaguns in range, one of them is probably going to hit, and it turns out everything hates Ap1.

Or, as people have said, vendettas. If you don't want fliers, then take hydras. The best way to handle them is on the table, though.

 Valek wrote:
Sorry, but the one suggesting Hydras here obviously thinks that the tripple helldrake player will not have oblits to kill those hydras, and hb do not penetrate av12...

Tbh you need vendetta's as your airdefence will be targetted turn one by his heavy support...

Or you reserve the hydras. Given that they are a hard counter to the helldrakes and not that great at countering anything else due to skyfire, you may as well leave them off the board until the aircraft arrive. Sure the arrival turn fire will be a bit restricted due to movement, but its better than them getting pasted before they fire at all.

Take 2 Vendettas and a comm array. Use the comm array to keep the Vendettas off the board until the Heldrakes show up. Then fly in the board and faceroll the drakes with twin-linked lascannons.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Take 2 Vendettas and a comm array. Use the comm array to keep the Vendettas off the board until the Heldrakes show up. Then fly in the board and faceroll the drakes with twin-linked lascannons.

or three if you are feeling ever so evil...

plus if he hasn't taken one with the autocannon for extra AA those drakes are in effect useless against vendettas... its where some chaos players draw a blank

my autodrake got a filty look the other day after it tried to shoot down a flamer drake, meanwhile my flamer drake was cleaning the board of marines

I just played a CSM army this weekend and he was flying two helldrakes. This was a 1.5k game and I had three vendettas and a comm relay. I won the roll off in a dawn of war game and allowed him to go first. I knew I was going to have to take a turn of being flamed but I didn't want to get in a bad position to shoot them or be vector striked. So I spread out my infantry as much as possible to absorb the flames and put two scoring units in the vendettas on the off off chance he was able to kill all of my scoring units in a single sweep. I dedicated a PCS to be a valk rider anyway loading them up with flamers to fry troops off of objectives if needed. Anyway, long and short of it, turn two both helldrakes fly on and flame my troops - kill a bunch (IG and SW ally). My turn 2 only two of the valks arrive but they manage to take out both helldrakes. The helldrakes definitely made a dent in my army and if it weren't for the valks it would have been a very different game. By the end of the game my opponent had a handful of cultists falling back off an objective and huron + 7 marines sitting on an objective. Meanwhile I had three valks, CCS, PCS, drop pod, an Infantry squad and a vet squad remaining and was able to hold two objectives.

IG has the single best answer to helldrakes thanks to the valks followed up not too far away by necrons (night scythes or lots and lots of gauss toting warriors).

 necron99 wrote:
I just played a CSM army this weekend and he was flying two helldrakes. This was a 1.5k game and I had three vendettas and a comm relay. I won the roll off in a dawn of war game and allowed him to go first. I knew I was going to have to take a turn of being flamed but I didn't want to get in a bad position to shoot them or be vector striked. So I spread out my infantry as much as possible to absorb the flames and put two scoring units in the vendettas on the off off chance he was able to kill all of my scoring units in a single sweep. I dedicated a PCS to be a valk rider anyway loading them up with flamers to fry troops off of objectives if needed. Anyway, long and short of it, turn two both helldrakes fly on and flame my troops - kill a bunch (IG and SW ally). My turn 2 only two of the valks arrive but they manage to take out both helldrakes. The helldrakes definitely made a dent in my army and if it weren't for the valks it would have been a very different game. By the end of the game my opponent had a handful of cultists falling back off an objective and huron + 7 marines sitting on an objective. Meanwhile I had three valks, CCS, PCS, drop pod, an Infantry squad and a vet squad remaining and was able to hold two objectives.

IG has the single best answer to helldrakes thanks to the valks followed up not too far away by necrons (night scythes or lots and lots of gauss toting warriors).

So you're running 3 vendettas and 3 Valkyries?

I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

needs a point increase for sure, way too effective for the cost

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Hyrda Turrets as an option. True they are a forgeworld piece so you would need the rules, Aeronotica I believe, but they are amazing. For 75 points cheaper then a normal Hyrda you get the same gun (rules and all) with interceptor and better side and rear armor. Sur eit can't move and has one worse front armor, but its really, really good at taking out flyers.

 arinnoor wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Hyrda Turrets as an option. True they are a forgeworld piece so you would need the rules, Aeronotica I believe, but they are amazing. For 75 points cheaper then a normal Hyrda you get the same gun (rules and all) with interceptor and better side and rear armor. Sur eit can't move and has one worse front armor, but its really, really good at taking out flyers.

this is actually what I have been planning to do,

I dont think they are 75pts cheaper then a hydra though, hydras are only 75 pts,

arnt they 50 pts? dont kno for sure dont have IA in front of me

They are 75 points cheaper then a normal squad of Hydras. Forgot a word lol.

easysauce wrote:
I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

needs a point increase for sure, way too effective for the cost

so wait, You killed his entire army somehow, in two turns and then got stalled on two flyers?... and its the flyers that are broken?

Valek wrote:Sorry, but the one suggesting Hydras here obviously thinks that the tripple helldrake player will not have oblits to kill those hydras, and hb do not penetrate av12...

If your opponent is bringing three helldrakes and enough obliterators to shut down a hydra squad before it has the chance to take down the fliers, then your opponent is throwing down, what 800+ points on this?

What else does he have in his list? Just play to the mission and kill your opponent's scoring units. Furthermore, you're talking about a guard player bringing 225 points to hard counter 800 points of stuff. What happens when the guard player brings two hydra squads? or an ADL with an icarus?

Plus, once again, there's the fieldcraft issue. If the guard player is bubble wrapping the hydras, just how will the obliterators kill them off? If the guard player spreads out, just how many casualties are those helldrakes really causing?

And, I'd like to note, hydras have more than just heavy bolters to shoot at fliers...

davou wrote:

so wait, You killed his entire army somehow, in two turns and then got stalled on two flyers?... and its the flyers that are broken?

my list is alpha strike, so thirty GK interceptors w psybolts and cannons all unloading into his 20 marines, + CC 2nd turn, and a bunch of 36"+ stuff to finish off

he could have backed up units, but chose to charge MEQ's and spawns into my grey knights, so tactically he did exactly what I wanted, force weapon ap3s minced that, and we are left with a table that has 1600pts of GK's and a hellbrute, and 2x chickens

then those two units proceed to destroy my whole army, despite me having the best AA in the GK codex, taken in triplicate...

normally i get my @$$ handed to me by this guy and his army, I got lucky this time and he made mistakes,
normally he has lost next to nothing and I am tabled

so yes, helldrakes are either OP or too cheap

Thanks for all the input guys, definately going to take this to the table. I didn't think about spreading out with the infantry. I think im going to bite the bullet and try to pick up some vendettas over the course of time. I think its interesting that Valek called it on the dot, he does bring two or three oblits.

That's what Oblits are for. Kill tanks.

Havocs with Autocannons kill the transports.

Hell Drakes kill the troops.

Xadakk wrote: I didn't think about spreading out with the infantry.

Welcome to foot guard, young paduan. The force is strong with those who displace.

For Vanilla Marines we now have a cheap flyer that can smack a Heldrake out of the sky that is also BS 5 against ground targets. We also have a big, albeit expensive flyer that is brisling with guns and is tough to shoot down. Quick question, whats the stats on a skyhammer missile launcher? guess it has skyfire?

easysauce wrote:
I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

heldrakes can only possibly come in on turn 2, so you are saying that you had 1500 points of expensive 3+ armor save stuff in 2 nicely clumped tear dropped bunches? A collosus or hell even a battle cannon could have done the same thing.

 Ailaros wrote:

Xadakk wrote: I didn't think about spreading out with the infantry.

Welcome to foot guard, young paduan. The force is strong with those who displace.

Most helpful thing i have seen so far, do you just run Inf Platoons or do you also take vet squads

Xadakk wrote:do you just run Inf Platoons or do you also take vet squads

I've tried a bunch of stuff so far in 6th. Probably the two things I liked the most were maxed out grenadiers vets with stormtroopers (say hello to my 100 carapace armor guardsmen), and my time with infinitely-respawning SitNW conscripts.

Having tried basically every way I can think of of seriously running a foot guard list, my best advice to you is go buy some chimeras.

... at least, until the next guard codex or rules edition comes out.

I have 5 chimeras ATM but seriously lacking in the Plasma Gun category. Plenty of standard bodies though. I have played a few games and i used to do fine before the Helldrakes but now those things just wipe my infantry off the board and vector strike any Transports i have to death.

 Xadakk wrote:
I have 5 chimeras ATM but seriously lacking in the Plasma Gun category. Plenty of standard bodies though. I have played a few games and i used to do fine before the Heldrakes but now those things just wipe my infantry off the board and vector strike any Transports i have to death.

The 360 degree turret on the Heldrake is a gakker. You can't even out-manoeuvre the damn things now.

Displacement is key, but with 3 Heldrakes, displacement will only do so much. Vendettas are a hard-counter. My old gaming group had a player with a Nurgle list containing 3 Heldrakes in a 1750pt list. Vendettas sort them out nicely. He had trouble holding objectives too. If you can focus down troops you can comfortably win, even without Vendettas.

 Exergy wrote:

heldrakes can only possibly come in on turn 2, so you are saying that you had 1500 points of expensive 3+ armor save stuff in 2 nicely clumped tear dropped bunches? A collosus or hell even a battle cannon could have done the same thing.

um yeah, they come in turn 2, got 5 turns of unmolestable killing, despite me having the best AA in the GK codex, true I can take yet another psyfle man, but its still going to miss 90% of the time, and if it hits, it still has to pen/glance, get through invulnerable saves or jink, AND not get rengerated...

i spread out, cover is useless, armour is useless, I even had the 4+ INV SAVE from divination, which save lots of guys, but I cant do anything to protect anyone else

but by turn 6 thats 10 templates that auto hit, re rollable wound on 2+, and deadl (except for the one unit that had the 4+ from divination)
so even if each template only kills 3 dudes, im screwed

not to mention vector strikes...

easysauce wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

heldrakes can only possibly come in on turn 2, so you are saying that you had 1500 points of expensive 3+ armor save stuff in 2 nicely clumped tear dropped bunches? A collosus or hell even a battle cannon could have done the same thing.

um yeah, they come in turn 2, got 5 turns of unmolestable killing, despite me having the best AA in the GK codex, true I can take yet another psyfle man, but its still going to miss 90% of the time, and if it hits, it still has to pen/glance, get through invulnerable saves or jink, AND not get rengerated...

i spread out, cover is useless, armour is useless, I even had the 4+ INV SAVE from divination, which save lots of guys, but I cant do anything to protect anyone else

but by turn 6 thats 10 templates that auto hit, re rollable wound on 2+, and deadl (except for the one unit that had the 4+ from divination)
so even if each template only kills 3 dudes, im screwed

not to mention vector strikes...

and you couldnt kill his forgefiend?

Because Drakes are such an issue, and so common, I decided to write an article about countering them. Each army has some options, but battling Drakes takes a combination of list building and good movement.

Check it out if you are interested.

http://rhetorical40k.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/tactics-what-will-you-do-about-drakes/

That was very helpful, thanks for the post.

 Exergy wrote:

and you couldnt kill his forgefiend?

it got lucky and regened/invulned a lot of HP's back/away

easysauce wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

and you couldnt kill his forgefiend?

it got lucky and regened/invulned a lot of HP's back/away

if something gets lucky that way you are going to lose. My first game of 6th I went up against a cron air list with 8 flyers and I had no skyfire. I got lucky and rolled a lot of 6s to hit, pen, and blow up and won handily when he conceded with some wraiths a losing combat and 2 regular scythes left. He was toast. You have to detach yourself from crazy lucky rolling. A forgefiend can be unkillable if he keeps rolling that 5++, that doesnt make them broken. If you rolled particularly badly shooting at the heldrakes dont fret. For every 20 psycannon shots you put into a heldrake and get nothing somewhere else you will get a hit, pen, explode result.

i think you are missing the point,

me= need to get lucky, roll a 6 then a 5+ then pass a 5++ and regenerates on 5+ each turn

him= auto hit, 2+ rerollable to wound, and im 100% dead

his flyer is anaethma to my AA sources

my codex AA sources are very unlikely to hurt his flyer

one drake is 170pts i think,

one squad of my best AA is 365 pts (4 psycannons in a squad with a inquisitor with re rolls to hit)

he will kill out right, even with best spaceing, 4-8 guys a turn from baleflamer and vector strikes (conservatively)

i get my 16 shots, say 5-6 hit (being generous), then 1-2 will pen/glance, and lets say he gets rid of one through save and regen, so i end up strippin one HP a turn

turn 2, I have 3 guys left, asssuming all pyscannons still, and I do even better then last turn, drake loses another HP

then he wipes my unit


even if i add 270 points for two psyfle men shooting at it, 8 shots, lets say 4 hit (again, wayy more tehn statistical) and 2 pen/glance, and it fails both the save, and has not regenned any HP from before,

then i have invested 635 pts to kill a 170 pt model, in two turns, and still lost 140-180 pts of my own models to it

easysauce wrote:
i think you are missing the point,

me= need to get lucky, roll a 6 then a 5+ then pass a 5++ and regenerates on 5+ each turn

him= auto hit, 2+ rerollable to wound, and im 100% dead

his flyer is anaethma to my AA sources

my codex AA sources are very unlikely to hurt his flyer

the forgefeinds dont literaly kill my whole army, the drakes do,
even if the fiend died, my army is still losing 1500+ pts to 340pts worth of models, every single game,

so either the drake is far too good, or the AA is far too bad

no you need to kill his forgefiend as that is the only thing on the table that can even contest. Then you need to protect your warlord, get something in his deployment zone, and try to keep 1 scoring unit on an objective. You win by 3.

Exergy's right. This game isn't mindless killing if you are trying to win. The heldrake's biggest strength is removing scoring units from the game. That's why it so fearsome. If it were just hard to kill, it wouldn't be so potent.

Yeah - everyone concentrating on Flyers saying "They're hard to kill!" - so what? While his ability to control the board is now greater than yours, that doesn't mean that the only way to win is to kill all of his units.

ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

Fight cheese with cheese, Sabre defense platforms.

Martel732 wrote:
Exergy's right. This game isn't mindless killing if you are trying to win. The heldrake's biggest strength is removing scoring units from the game. That's why it so fearsome. If it were just hard to kill, it wouldn't be so potent.

yes, the heldrake is tough. Yes the heldrake is good at killing Meq scoring units in cover.

The Heldrake is game changing in that it is a flyer that can target infantry, and do it well.
The heldrake is NOT game breaking though. They are expensive and mitagatable

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Fight cheese with cheese, Sabre defense platforms.

what are the rules for sabres? intercept + skyfire?

what armies take them?

cause right now, I have to ally in effective AA because ignoring Air is not an option for an MEQ army against drakes.

so far the hydra platforms from forgeworld look ok, but id beintersted in the sabre

They are for imperial guard, at 50 points you can get twin linked lascannons with skyfire and intercepter.

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

How did 1 forgefined kill multiple psyrifleman dreads? Psyrifleman are better than forgefineds and cost less and you had multiple. You cannot beat luck, but dont complain about luck.

how did he kill your warlord, doesnt everything HG in the GK book have a 2+ save? Most are T4 as well so they would have to fail multiple 2+ saves.

The vector strike will hit 3, the flame template will hit 4, 1 of those will fail to wound so lets say 6 marines a turn, IF you let it swipe and flame you. With its movement restrictions you should be able to prevent it from doing one or both on most turns if you are trying.

GK can take terminators as troops, without any special HQ. Those are scoring units that a heldrake cannot touch. GK can take landraiders, a unit that heldrakes cannot touch. GK can take dreadknights, a unit that heldrakes cannot touch that can run around and knock CSM scoring units off objectives nearly as effectively as a heldrake.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They are for imperial guard, at 50 points you can get twin linked lascannons with skyfire and intercepter.

damn thats nice... ill have to try some out, sounds like just the ticket


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

How did 1 forgefined kill multiple psyrifleman dreads? Psyrifleman are better than forgefineds and cost less and you had multiple. You cannot beat luck, but dont complain about luck.

how did he kill your warlord, doesnt everything HG in the GK book have a 2+ save? Most are T4 as well so they would have to fail multiple 2+ saves.

The vector strike will hit 3, the flame template will hit 4, 1 of those will fail to wound so lets say 6 marines a turn, IF you let it swipe and flame you. With its movement restrictions you should be able to prevent it from doing one or both on most turns if you are trying.

GK can take terminators as troops, without any special HQ. Those are scoring units that a heldrake cannot touch. GK can take landraiders, a unit that heldrakes cannot touch. GK can take dreadknights, a unit that heldrakes cannot touch that can run around and knock CSM scoring units off objectives nearly as effectively as a heldrake.

he had two maulerfieds, i killed one already,

your severly under estimating the drakes effectiveness vs MEQ i think
coteaz is only t3, and 6 marines a turn? sorry but a torrent template WILL cover more then 4 guys most of the time, and rerollable 2+ to wound is not going to fail 25% of the time, vector strike will also KILL on a 2+ so 3 marines average a turn from vector strike, 4-5 a turn from flame, at least, assuming I have the luxery of spacing 30 guys out 2" apart in a totally empty board.

he had 20 CSM, lord on juggernaught, full spawn squad, two feinds, 20 cultists, and some crazy lvl 3 psyker, 2 drakes

terminators, while effective against this specfific army, and how i counter CSM when i have the luxery of list tailoring,
but they are a worse pick for the current meta for a TAC tourny list, everyone spams plasma/melta ect

it just comes down to the meta of ignoring flyers doesnt apply to drakes, so I either leave my list as it, where if I play a list with 2+ drake's I auto lose,

or I sub in some forgeworld turrets, which Is likely the best option.

easysauce wrote:
i think you are missing the point

Yes, Heldrakes are tough. This is a fact. Want to learn to counter them? Listen to some people and try some things out.

You have to be open to suggestions.

easysauce wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They are for imperial guard, at 50 points you can get twin linked lascannons with skyfire and intercepter.

damn thats nice... ill have to try some out, sounds like just the ticket

.

downside is it is forgeworld(where if your oppenent refuses to let you field them, you refuse to let him field the heldrake)
Its 22gbp for one. So 3 will be expensive.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They are for imperial guard, at 50 points you can get twin linked lascannons with skyfire and intercepter.

damn thats nice... ill have to try some out, sounds like just the ticket

.

downside is it is forgeworld(where if your oppenent refuses to let you field them, you refuse to let him field the heldrake)
Its 22gbp for one. So 3 will be expensive.

yeah, I definetly need an AA unit, thats what i am getting at, I need an actually AA unit that does its job reliably, but wont gimp the rest of my list due to huge points sink like investing more then 300 in AA, including the ally "tax"

i appreciate others giving suggestions, the only reason i am saying they dont work is that I have tried them... and they didnt work

things I have tried to counter drakes:

ally in vendettas:
the tax on them messes up list synergy, i become great v flyers, but poor vs other stuff,
take terminators:
great for drakes, horrible for other armies
spam psycannons:
haphazord at best, yet to shoot down a single flyer with firepower that would wipe out entire enemy units instead of bein wasted trying to hit on 6's


forge world emplacements:

worth a shot, for sure, i think its liekly the best bet


I can make my own too, i have the bits and some old metal rapiers that look the part, plus they are usful even if my opponent has no flyers


so i am not trying to be unreceptive to some of these suggestions, its just that I have already tried most of them, and found they do not work through using them,

I was asking more for an actual good AA unit, as opposed to hoping the less then optimal AA in the gk codex gets lucky.

I do appreciate any attempt to help however, so thank you, I am open to more suggestions of course, please dont take that I have tried some of the ones sugested and found that they didnt work as well as I wanted to be indicative of me rejecting them out of hand.

Vendettas rock the socks off more than fliers. For their points, they are fantastic vs teqs and most vehicles as well. If I can manage against helldrakes with the point sink Stormraven, you should be able to handle them easily with Vendettas. If you can't, I don't know what to tell you. Its the CSM themselves that beat my BA face in with their superior HTH, stat lines and shooting options.

In fact, allied Vendettas is a big reason the SW make a complete mockery of the BA. After their allied Vendettas shoot down my stormraven, they then shoot everything else I have that can hurt SW. Then the grey hunters kill me. If Vendettas were *only* skyfire, I'd agree with you.

It's nice to see such a heated thread all because of me.

To the GK player -- have you tried a Storm Raven Gunship or two? I've read that they are very good at AA and you don't need to ally-in to get them since they're a Fast Attack choice for you.

easysauce wrote:

your severly under estimating the drakes effectiveness vs MEQ i think
coteaz is only t3, and 6 marines a turn? sorry but a torrent template WILL cover more then 4 guys most of the time, and rerollable 2+ to wound is not going to fail 25% of the time, vector strike will also KILL on a 2+ so 3 marines average a turn from vector strike, 4-5 a turn from flame, at least, assuming I have the luxery of spacing 30 guys out 2" apart in a totally empty board.

Yes Coteaz is T3, he is not Meq he is Geq with a nice save. Use Geq warlords at your peril if you have the choice, they are easy to ID.

The heldrake has no way to reroll it's to wound roll unless it is within 12" of a CSM warlord who has black crusader(PE SM). So if he was rerolling his 2+ to wound rolls perhaps your opponent was cheating. The 2+ to wound is tough, but for instance vector strike averages 3 hits, but only 2.5 dead marines which is signifigant over a long game.

Did you combat squad your guys? 5 guys can be tough to always kill 4-5 a turn with the flame. Especially if you vector strike them. (if you only have 3 models in a squad you cant kill 5 with a flame template)

Were you playing with terrain? If you are out of LOS he cannot shoot you.

You said you had some chimeras, and maybe coteaz so you had some henchmen. Did you only have 30 henchmen as your scoring bodies?

easysauce wrote:

he had 20 CSM, lord on juggernaught, full spawn squad, two feinds, 20 cultists, and some crazy lvl 3 psyker, 2 drakes

terminators, while effective against this specfific army, and how i counter CSM when i have the luxery of list tailoring,
but they are a worse pick for the current meta for a TAC tourny list, everyone spams plasma/melta ect

it just comes down to the meta of ignoring flyers doesnt apply to drakes, so I either leave my list as it, where if I play a list with 2+ drake's I auto lose,

his list is killy, but has only 20 low Ld scoring bodies that are t3 and 6+ saves, and 20 CSM(not sure these can be nasty or not). His army might decimate some Meq armies but he doesnt really have anything to deal with Teq other than his killy lord that can be halberded dead before he can strike. While you say terminators arent very useful, they do show up. His list cannot really deal with them, and thus his list isnt really a TAC list because it has poor scoring bodies and no real hope of dealing with Teq.

I don't even play guard and I could tell you that you should be taking 3 vendettas every time. They are currently one of the most powerful units in the game.

I have to use coteaz in a list with 4-6 henchmen squads,
drakes have the hellforge rule allowing them to reroll to wound,
and if the mission wasnt big guns never tire, yeah i woulda wone hands down, heck, if he had made one less regen roll on his mauler feind, I would have won,

main thing here is I cant take storm raves, no more FA slots,
too expensive/less effecive to add termies or vendettas,

these are good strats, just not ness. for my list,

I think the allied Forge world platforms will be my best low points bet for dealing with the drakes,


what issues do you see with the forge world turrets?

if it helps, my list has changed a bit (added more invulnerable saves as i htink that will help a LOT)

30gk intercepts,
coteaz, inquizitor w rad+pycho greneades and divination roll,
3x squads of 10 henchmen w bolters (one has a chimera)
2x squads of 3 henchmen w bolters,
1 unit of 5 deathcult assasins with 5 crusaders, in a chimera
jump dreadnaught

previous list I used against CSM was same as that that,
but 2x psyfle men instead of the dread, and some psykers instead of the assasins/crusaders

A Heldrake can re-roll failed To Wound and Armor Penetration rolls using the once per game ability, Daemonforge.

Cheap dakkajets and lootas... oh wait ur Ig?
....why are you even here? Imperial guard rules the sky! Valks/vendettas allot of forgeworld stuff followed by ground skyfire stuff..

easysauce wrote:

I have to use coteaz in a list with 4-6 henchmen squads,
drakes have the hellforge rule allowing them to reroll to wound,
and if the mission wasnt big guns never tire, yeah i woulda wone hands down, heck, if he had made one less regen roll on his mauler feind, I would have won,

Coteaz doesnt have to be your warlord, he only has to be in your list.

Drakes do have daemon forge, i forgot, but they can only use that once a game, and they risk glancing themselves to death.

easysauce wrote:

30gk intercepts,
coteaz, inquizitor w rad+pycho greneades and divination roll,
3x squads of 10 henchmen w bolters (one has a chimera)
2x squads of 3 henchmen w bolters,
1 unit of 5 deathcult assasins with 5 crusaders, in a chimera
jump dreadnaught

previous list I used against CSM was same as that that,
but 2x psyfle men instead of the dread, and some psykers instead of the assasins/crusaders

I might swap out 10 intercepters for another dreadknight.
but there you have 46 scoring bodies right? That isnt so bad but

The thing is i try not to bring cheese too often...i like a fun game, not a tournament. I could take 4 or 5 of the damn things but i just don't like the idea. But the more i read the more i feel i have to. I fear that tapping into Forge World will make things really heated at the local group.

 Exergy wrote:

easysauce wrote:

I have to use coteaz in a list with 4-6 henchmen squads,
drakes have the hellforge rule allowing them to reroll to wound,
and if the mission wasnt big guns never tire, yeah i woulda wone hands down, heck, if he had made one less regen roll on his mauler feind, I would have won,

Coteaz doesnt have to be your warlord, he only has to be in your list.

Drakes do have daemon forge, i forgot, but they can only use that once a game, and they risk glancing themselves to death.

easysauce wrote:

30gk intercepts,
coteaz, inquizitor w rad+pycho greneades and divination roll,
3x squads of 10 henchmen w bolters (one has a chimera)
2x squads of 3 henchmen w bolters,
1 unit of 5 deathcult assasins with 5 crusaders, in a chimera
jump dreadnaught

previous list I used against CSM was same as that that,
but 2x psyfle men instead of the dread, and some psykers instead of the assasins/crusaders

I might swap out 10 intercepters for another dreadknight.
but there you have 46 scoring bodies right? That isnt so bad but

yeah, I think adding two more units of 3 henchmen, just to force them to waste a turn at least shooting them, will help

and the ++ saves on the assasins/crusaders I think will work, since drakes are the only unit i have issues with, this should let me use my same strat, but have more then 3 guys left over,

should also help against the necrons hunters that wound on 2+ with that cryptek template ap1 weapon too, 10 invuls between my warlord and killy stuff should be better then 10x3+;s

I cant use the 85 pt inquisitor as my warlord unfortunetly.. hes even squishy-er, no points or synergy with other HQ unfortunetly,

Necron Allies

Overlord
5-9 Warriors in a Ghost Ark, Warlord with them
5 Deathmarks and one Despair Cryptek with a Veil, for removing unwanted deathstars
Anni Barge (at 90 points, its the best non-FW ground anti air vehicle you can take)


510 points [$190] (bare bones) and you get, one scoring unit (backed with the Ark), two AV13 front and side vehicles, an anti deathstar unit, and 4 Str7 TW shots that add two extra hits on a six. You can drop the Deathmark squad too, to make it cheep.

I'm curious if people have most success trying to go for the kill against 'Drakes compared to stripping hull points.

With the 5++ and IWND, my gut is telling me that aiming to remove hull points in a timely fashion is less useful compared to using AP2/1 weapons and hoping for either a dead flyer or a weapon destroyed result.

Do both. Remove hull points with AP2/1 weapons. Hey look, there's this thing called a Vendetta that does it super well!

No one expects the Vendetta! its primary weapon is fear, fear and surprise.Its two weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency. Amongst its weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Emperor.

Vendettas or a crap of autocannons...

easysauce wrote:
I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

needs a point increase for sure, way too effective for the cost

Haha seriously? 170pts for a flamer! Ya! And the vendetta at 130 pts is OK though? Palease

MaximumBerzerker wrote:

easysauce wrote:
I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

needs a point increase for sure, way too effective for the cost

Haha seriously? 170pts for a flamer! Ya! And the vendetta at 130 pts is OK though? Palease

An AP3 flamer, with torrent and turret. It's a marine players worst fear at the moment.

Yes I agree but it def doesn't need a point increase. Do we really need to go over all the great things about the vendetta here? People just need to learn how to counter it and mitigate its abilities. I play against a guy who bitches about how good the drake is and how it just wrecks his army everytime we play, yet he never changes his list and places his marines in a nice line perfect for a good templating.

Mitigating the Heldrake's lethality is something players should learn, however actually countering it is another matter. I don't believe it needs a point increase but I feel there needs to be more effective anti-air Codex options. Codex: DA was a step in the right direction (flakk missiles and a "jetfighter") but ultimately proved to be largely ineffective. Right now the best way to counter a Heldrake is to either take allies (IG) or turn to Forgeworld. Personally I'm fine with doing either, but not everyone wants to (or can) turn to these options.

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

I didn't read everyone's opinions but I'd just ally SW give those blobs (that are spaced out) ATSKNF and then a Priest with Long Fangs to do damage AND give them a Juicy target. In addition 3 Vendettas to kill anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually the best way to beat him is to never play someone who's that cheesy

Stormraven w/multi-melta, assault cannon, and missiles. Should be able to cripple or destroy a drake per turn. No allies needed.

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

the template is only hitting 4-5 models, vector strike is the other 3 wounds,

its a torrent... not a flamer, even spread out you will get hit 4-5 times, heaven forbid terrain means you have to squeeze together a bit,
or you are just exiting combat with a 1" consolodate,

easysauce wrote:

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

the template is only hitting 4-5 models, vector strike is the other 3 wounds,

its a torrent... not a flamer, even spread out you will get hit 4-5 times, heaven forbid terrain means you have to squeeze together a bit,
or you are just exiting combat with a 1" consolodate,

Yeah, and a vindicator would be terrible to have inflicted upon you in the same circumstances. This whole thread is full of people cherrypicking scenarios where the helldrake is the be all and end all. Yes, its strong, but its not half as fethed as half of everyone here is suggesting.

Sure, if you just got out of combat and got a 1'' consolidate, you may be a bit hammered, but that's a price you pay for having been locked in that combat and safe from ALL shooting previously. Spread your dudes out if you see a bale-flamer around, simple as that.

Hell, races like eldar, tau and to a lesser extent necrons have had to deal with flamers wiping expensive models with no saves allowed for a long time.You deal with it, not quit and bitch. It's strong, but its not a win-button as long as you treat it with a modicum of intelligence while you play

I think the Vendetta is a much more massive problem to the game than the Helldrake myself. The "fix" for marines is to use stormraven/stormtalon/whatever DA gets. But in a TAC environment, points allocated to counter the helldrakes get fething owned by the Vendetta, almost trivially.

The Vendettas can then clean up tanks and teqs after clearing fliers. It's even not that inefficient to fire them at marine vets. Oh and drop plasma and melta dudes in your face. Because at 130 pt hovering Vendetta is not really much more vulnerable for the points than a run of the mill marine dreadnought. Not like hovering a 230 point Stormraven.

Interestingly, as BA I have more trouble with the CSM themselves than the helldrakes. Unless they bring three. I can handle two. But I can't dedicate anymore to Stormravens, because then if I draw a Vendetta list, I just lose.

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

the template is only hitting 4-5 models, vector strike is the other 3 wounds,

its a torrent... not a flamer, even spread out you will get hit 4-5 times, heaven forbid terrain means you have to squeeze together a bit,
or you are just exiting combat with a 1" consolodate,

Yeah, and a vindicator would be terrible to have inflicted upon you in the same circumstances. This whole thread is full of people cherrypicking scenarios where the helldrake is the be all and end all. Yes, its strong, but its not half as fethed as half of everyone here is suggesting.

Sure, if you just got out of combat and got a 1'' consolidate, you may be a bit hammered, but that's a price you pay for having been locked in that combat and safe from ALL shooting previously. Spread your dudes out if you see a bale-flamer around, simple as that.

Hell, races like eldar, tau and to a lesser extent necrons have had to deal with flamers wiping expensive models with no saves allowed for a long time.You deal with it, not quit and bitch. It's strong, but its not a win-button as long as you treat it with a modicum of intelligence while you play

vindicatores have less range then drakes (6"move + 24), have to roll scatter so no auto hits, I can put units in COVER against vindicators, i can get close to your units so you cant use the big blast, I can LOS your tank with cover, (drakes are never out of LOS with a 36" move and 360 turret) dont get regen, dont get 5++, dont get to move 36", are not hit on 6's, can be assaulted...

not even close to the same, not by a long shot.

I have had no problem against lists that spam vindicators, russes, necron monoliths, land raiders...


im not bitching or quiting... all I asked for was how people actually counter them when their codex has poor AA choices, and I stipulated I didnt/cant take storm ravens or dettas

replying to me asking for tactics/units i might not have heard about, with something like "learn to play, spread out and no more problems" isnt helpful, my guys are 2" apart, and spread out as much as allowed by the particuar situation they are in at all times, as they have been for the last 14 years of 40k gaming.

how a 7.5 " torrent template will only hit one or two guys spred out 2" from each other is beyond me,

even in a perfect world with no terrain, no consolodates, or bad diff terrain moves, where I can put models at max coherancy, 3 models will be hit by the bale, at minimun, and 2-4 will be hit from vector...



thankfully someone helpfully pointed out sabre defence platforms which seem like a good low points alternative should taking more ++ save units not work out.

If you can swing Forgeworld stuff, Sabre defense platforms (as already said) are pretty awesome.

I'm scratchbuilding some right now.

Alternatively, I think most of the obvious answers have been covered already, with Vendettas being the top option.

easysauce wrote:

vindicatores have less range then drakes (6"move + 24), have to roll scatter so no auto hits, I can put units in COVER against vindicators, i can get close to your units so you cant use the big blast, I can LOS your tank with cover, (drakes are never out of LOS with a 36" move and 360 turret) dont get regen, dont get 5++, dont get to move 36", are not hit on 6's, can be assaulted...

not even close to the same, not by a long shot.

I have had no problem against lists that spam vindicators, russes, necron monoliths, land raiders...


im not bitching or quiting... all I asked for was how people actually counter them when their codex has poor AA choices, and I stipulated I didnt/cant take storm ravens or dettas

replying to me asking for tactics/units i might not have heard about, with something like "learn to play, spread out and no more problems" isnt helpful, my guys are 2" apart, and spread out as much as allowed by the particuar situation they are in at all times, as they have been for the last 14 years of 40k gaming.

how a 7.5 " torrent template will only hit one or two guys spred out 2" from each other is beyond me,

even in a perfect world with no terrain, no consolodates, or bad diff terrain moves, where I can put models at max coherancy, 3 models will be hit by the bale, at minimun, and 2-4 will be hit from vector...



thankfully someone helpfully pointed out sabre defence platforms which seem like a good low points alternative should taking more ++ save units not work out.

I wasn't trying to say that a vindicator is better than a drake; If I had to choose between both of them, I'd probably choose the drake. What I was saying, is that in the perfect ideal situtation a vindi can do just as much or more damage than a heldrake. The point is to not offer up those ideal situations.

If you had managed already to erase the entire rest of his army with minimal losses on your own, bunkering down against the heldrake(s) should not have been too hard. People have offered plenty of advice in the form of units you can try, allies options, positioning tactics, deployment strategies etc, but every time you mention some situation where the baleflamer negates it. My vindicator does the same thing; it appears only in conversation when I can describe a situation where it completely obliterates things like 600+ point bikernob deathstars, and because of that it seems very OP.

The heldrake can't hold objectives, and more than 90% of the game is won in that way. In your game, you make it sound as if you already had first blood and slay the warlord, all you had to do was not get tabled to win. Keep you units out of sight, buy them a transport to protect them from the heldrake, buy more units and less upgrades army wide, spread your units out, get some invulnerable saves and feel no pain.... There's a ton of ways to deal with it, in the case of your last game, a great way would have been to just weather its slaps for a while.

Only one dude at my club fields heldrakes with regularity, and he isn't wining because most of us are used to playing with armies that would die to any flamer, not just one that happens to be a bit mince'ier.

Strangely my Tau, love busting up Hell Drakes, he usually gets one turn with them since I usually field one unit of Death Rain, and a unit of Fire Knife. However I have to agree with everyone else just field a Vendetta or 2, and smile.

I think more people should consider taking a hadesdrake instead of the baledrake. At a certain point, you saturate infantry killing need of your army, so adding some tank and flyer busting power couldn't hurt. You still retain vector strikes if you REALLY need to kill MEQs.

 minigun762 wrote:
I think more people should consider taking a hadesdrake instead of the baledrake. At a certain point, you saturate infantry killing need of your army, so adding some tank and flyer busting power couldn't hurt. You still retain vector strikes if you REALLY need to kill MEQs.

But why take something sub-par at tank and flyer hunting when you can take something incredibly strong for killing infantry? The tank/flyer hunting roles can be filled by other things, with better weapons.

I think more people should consider taking a hadesdrake instead of the baledrake. At a certain point, you saturate infantry killing need of your army, so adding some tank and flyer busting power couldn't hurt. You still retain vector strikes if you REALLY need to kill MEQs.

I wish people started to consider the Hadesdrake too...mainly because I want to face less Baledrakes

Seriously though, this is terrible advice. Mech has died down so much. The Baleflamer Helldrake is one of the best units in the game. The ability to threaten most troop choices anywhere on the board, wounding on 2's, ignoring all but 2+ saves, and ignoring cover is incredible. There is no reason to ever consider the Hades Autocannon.

I'm not discounting the power of the baledrake. It's probably one of a handful of models keeping Chaos competitive.

My advice was more based on the idea that once you have a pair of baledrakes, adding a hadesdrake if you really need the added AA firepower and didn't want to use allies, could be more useful than a third template.

I'm not discounting the power of the baledrake. It's probably one of a handful of models keeping Chaos competitive.

My advice was more based on the idea that once you have a pair of baledrakes, adding a hadesdrake if you really need the added AA firepower and didn't want to use allies, could be more useful than a third template.

I think that the easy answer for the third FA slot roughly the same amount of points is a unit of Nurgle Spawn. That unit is almost as incredible as the Drake, especially when buffed up with powers.

I just got back from a tournament in quebec called northern defenders.

Out of 26 I placed 14th overall and 19th in best general; with tau.

Two lists I faced were particularly cheesy, one necron flyer spam at 3 nightscythes two doomscythes. Another was double Baledrake. In both cases, I managed to play the missions we were presented with and come out fairly even (win against necrons, lose against chaos by 1 point and 2.5 points respectively.)

First, interceptor is stupid good. An ADL was enough to mitigate the punch so that I could play the mission. Had I been allowed to take my new Stormraven, I would have bashed the chaos player.

Keeping you're units spread, and far enough apart that you don't have to eat flamers continually worked a charm. Even better, allot of armies wised up to the issue and bought cheap transports!

It's not nearly as broken as it's being made out to be.

 JGrand wrote:
Seriously though, this is terrible advice. Mech has died down so much. The Baleflamer Helldrake is one of the best units in the game. The ability to threaten most troop choices anywhere on the board, wounding on 2's, ignoring all but 2+ saves, and ignoring cover is incredible. There is no reason to ever consider the Hades Autocannon.

I think you're mostly right, but in some cases I've been happy to see a Baledrake, whereas a Hadesdrake would have been extremely threatening. Is the Baledrake better in most matchups? Certainly. But if you have two Baledrakes, a third Baledrake will likely provide less benefit than a Hadesdrake. Similarly, if you're primarily looking for anti-flyer instead of anti-infantry (which is certainly conceivable for several Chaos builds) the Hadesdrake is superior to the Baledrake. All in all, while I agree with your advice in most cases, I don't think it's quite that clear-cut.

davou wrote:
I just got back from a tournament in quebec called northern defenders.

Out of 26 I placed 14th overall and 19th in best general; with tau.

Two lists I faced were particularly cheesy, one necron flyer spam at 3 nightscythes two doomscythes. Another was double Baledrake. In both cases, I managed to play the missions we were presented with and come out fairly even (win against necrons, lose against chaos by 1 point and 2.5 points respectively.)

First, interceptor is stupid good. An ADL was enough to mitigate the punch so that I could play the mission. Had I been allowed to take my new Stormraven, I would have bashed the chaos player.

Keeping you're units spread, and far enough apart that you don't have to eat flamers continually worked a charm. Even better, allot of armies wised up to the issue and bought cheap transports!

It's not nearly as broken as it's being made out to be.

Cheap transports, its my way of dealing with the DUCK. My bud usually plays one, last time I was footslogging with ASM, he pretty much just decimated my army. This week I put them all in rhinos, they made it where they were going. Yes he attempts to Vector Strike them, and then burn whatever got out, but Rhinos are an easy and cheap solution.

I haven't tried shooting it down yet with the Storm Raven, it probably isn't impossible with everything being TL. I use my Storm Raven as ground support, perhaps its time I changed that........just seems like a waste.