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easysauce wrote:
i think you are missing the point

Yes, Heldrakes are tough. This is a fact. Want to learn to counter them? Listen to some people and try some things out.

You have to be open to suggestions.

easysauce wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They are for imperial guard, at 50 points you can get twin linked lascannons with skyfire and intercepter.

damn thats nice... ill have to try some out, sounds like just the ticket

.

downside is it is forgeworld(where if your oppenent refuses to let you field them, you refuse to let him field the heldrake)
Its 22gbp for one. So 3 will be expensive.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

easysauce wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They are for imperial guard, at 50 points you can get twin linked lascannons with skyfire and intercepter.

damn thats nice... ill have to try some out, sounds like just the ticket

.

downside is it is forgeworld(where if your oppenent refuses to let you field them, you refuse to let him field the heldrake)
Its 22gbp for one. So 3 will be expensive.

yeah, I definetly need an AA unit, thats what i am getting at, I need an actually AA unit that does its job reliably, but wont gimp the rest of my list due to huge points sink like investing more then 300 in AA, including the ally "tax"

i appreciate others giving suggestions, the only reason i am saying they dont work is that I have tried them... and they didnt work

things I have tried to counter drakes:

ally in vendettas:
the tax on them messes up list synergy, i become great v flyers, but poor vs other stuff,
take terminators:
great for drakes, horrible for other armies
spam psycannons:
haphazord at best, yet to shoot down a single flyer with firepower that would wipe out entire enemy units instead of bein wasted trying to hit on 6's


forge world emplacements:

worth a shot, for sure, i think its liekly the best bet


I can make my own too, i have the bits and some old metal rapiers that look the part, plus they are usful even if my opponent has no flyers


so i am not trying to be unreceptive to some of these suggestions, its just that I have already tried most of them, and found they do not work through using them,

I was asking more for an actual good AA unit, as opposed to hoping the less then optimal AA in the gk codex gets lucky.

I do appreciate any attempt to help however, so thank you, I am open to more suggestions of course, please dont take that I have tried some of the ones sugested and found that they didnt work as well as I wanted to be indicative of me rejecting them out of hand.

Vendettas rock the socks off more than fliers. For their points, they are fantastic vs teqs and most vehicles as well. If I can manage against helldrakes with the point sink Stormraven, you should be able to handle them easily with Vendettas. If you can't, I don't know what to tell you. Its the CSM themselves that beat my BA face in with their superior HTH, stat lines and shooting options.

In fact, allied Vendettas is a big reason the SW make a complete mockery of the BA. After their allied Vendettas shoot down my stormraven, they then shoot everything else I have that can hurt SW. Then the grey hunters kill me. If Vendettas were *only* skyfire, I'd agree with you.

It's nice to see such a heated thread all because of me.

To the GK player -- have you tried a Storm Raven Gunship or two? I've read that they are very good at AA and you don't need to ally-in to get them since they're a Fast Attack choice for you.

easysauce wrote:

your severly under estimating the drakes effectiveness vs MEQ i think
coteaz is only t3, and 6 marines a turn? sorry but a torrent template WILL cover more then 4 guys most of the time, and rerollable 2+ to wound is not going to fail 25% of the time, vector strike will also KILL on a 2+ so 3 marines average a turn from vector strike, 4-5 a turn from flame, at least, assuming I have the luxery of spacing 30 guys out 2" apart in a totally empty board.

Yes Coteaz is T3, he is not Meq he is Geq with a nice save. Use Geq warlords at your peril if you have the choice, they are easy to ID.

The heldrake has no way to reroll it's to wound roll unless it is within 12" of a CSM warlord who has black crusader(PE SM). So if he was rerolling his 2+ to wound rolls perhaps your opponent was cheating. The 2+ to wound is tough, but for instance vector strike averages 3 hits, but only 2.5 dead marines which is signifigant over a long game.

Did you combat squad your guys? 5 guys can be tough to always kill 4-5 a turn with the flame. Especially if you vector strike them. (if you only have 3 models in a squad you cant kill 5 with a flame template)

Were you playing with terrain? If you are out of LOS he cannot shoot you.

You said you had some chimeras, and maybe coteaz so you had some henchmen. Did you only have 30 henchmen as your scoring bodies?

easysauce wrote:

he had 20 CSM, lord on juggernaught, full spawn squad, two feinds, 20 cultists, and some crazy lvl 3 psyker, 2 drakes

terminators, while effective against this specfific army, and how i counter CSM when i have the luxery of list tailoring,
but they are a worse pick for the current meta for a TAC tourny list, everyone spams plasma/melta ect

it just comes down to the meta of ignoring flyers doesnt apply to drakes, so I either leave my list as it, where if I play a list with 2+ drake's I auto lose,

his list is killy, but has only 20 low Ld scoring bodies that are t3 and 6+ saves, and 20 CSM(not sure these can be nasty or not). His army might decimate some Meq armies but he doesnt really have anything to deal with Teq other than his killy lord that can be halberded dead before he can strike. While you say terminators arent very useful, they do show up. His list cannot really deal with them, and thus his list isnt really a TAC list because it has poor scoring bodies and no real hope of dealing with Teq.

I don't even play guard and I could tell you that you should be taking 3 vendettas every time. They are currently one of the most powerful units in the game.

I have to use coteaz in a list with 4-6 henchmen squads,
drakes have the hellforge rule allowing them to reroll to wound,
and if the mission wasnt big guns never tire, yeah i woulda wone hands down, heck, if he had made one less regen roll on his mauler feind, I would have won,

main thing here is I cant take storm raves, no more FA slots,
too expensive/less effecive to add termies or vendettas,

these are good strats, just not ness. for my list,

I think the allied Forge world platforms will be my best low points bet for dealing with the drakes,


what issues do you see with the forge world turrets?

if it helps, my list has changed a bit (added more invulnerable saves as i htink that will help a LOT)

30gk intercepts,
coteaz, inquizitor w rad+pycho greneades and divination roll,
3x squads of 10 henchmen w bolters (one has a chimera)
2x squads of 3 henchmen w bolters,
1 unit of 5 deathcult assasins with 5 crusaders, in a chimera
jump dreadnaught

previous list I used against CSM was same as that that,
but 2x psyfle men instead of the dread, and some psykers instead of the assasins/crusaders

A Heldrake can re-roll failed To Wound and Armor Penetration rolls using the once per game ability, Daemonforge.

Cheap dakkajets and lootas... oh wait ur Ig?
....why are you even here? Imperial guard rules the sky! Valks/vendettas allot of forgeworld stuff followed by ground skyfire stuff..

easysauce wrote:

I have to use coteaz in a list with 4-6 henchmen squads,
drakes have the hellforge rule allowing them to reroll to wound,
and if the mission wasnt big guns never tire, yeah i woulda wone hands down, heck, if he had made one less regen roll on his mauler feind, I would have won,

Coteaz doesnt have to be your warlord, he only has to be in your list.

Drakes do have daemon forge, i forgot, but they can only use that once a game, and they risk glancing themselves to death.

easysauce wrote:

30gk intercepts,
coteaz, inquizitor w rad+pycho greneades and divination roll,
3x squads of 10 henchmen w bolters (one has a chimera)
2x squads of 3 henchmen w bolters,
1 unit of 5 deathcult assasins with 5 crusaders, in a chimera
jump dreadnaught

previous list I used against CSM was same as that that,
but 2x psyfle men instead of the dread, and some psykers instead of the assasins/crusaders

I might swap out 10 intercepters for another dreadknight.
but there you have 46 scoring bodies right? That isnt so bad but

The thing is i try not to bring cheese too often...i like a fun game, not a tournament. I could take 4 or 5 of the damn things but i just don't like the idea. But the more i read the more i feel i have to. I fear that tapping into Forge World will make things really heated at the local group.

 Exergy wrote:

easysauce wrote:

I have to use coteaz in a list with 4-6 henchmen squads,
drakes have the hellforge rule allowing them to reroll to wound,
and if the mission wasnt big guns never tire, yeah i woulda wone hands down, heck, if he had made one less regen roll on his mauler feind, I would have won,

Coteaz doesnt have to be your warlord, he only has to be in your list.

Drakes do have daemon forge, i forgot, but they can only use that once a game, and they risk glancing themselves to death.

easysauce wrote:

30gk intercepts,
coteaz, inquizitor w rad+pycho greneades and divination roll,
3x squads of 10 henchmen w bolters (one has a chimera)
2x squads of 3 henchmen w bolters,
1 unit of 5 deathcult assasins with 5 crusaders, in a chimera
jump dreadnaught

previous list I used against CSM was same as that that,
but 2x psyfle men instead of the dread, and some psykers instead of the assasins/crusaders

I might swap out 10 intercepters for another dreadknight.
but there you have 46 scoring bodies right? That isnt so bad but

yeah, I think adding two more units of 3 henchmen, just to force them to waste a turn at least shooting them, will help

and the ++ saves on the assasins/crusaders I think will work, since drakes are the only unit i have issues with, this should let me use my same strat, but have more then 3 guys left over,

should also help against the necrons hunters that wound on 2+ with that cryptek template ap1 weapon too, 10 invuls between my warlord and killy stuff should be better then 10x3+;s

I cant use the 85 pt inquisitor as my warlord unfortunetly.. hes even squishy-er, no points or synergy with other HQ unfortunetly,

Necron Allies

Overlord
5-9 Warriors in a Ghost Ark, Warlord with them
5 Deathmarks and one Despair Cryptek with a Veil, for removing unwanted deathstars
Anni Barge (at 90 points, its the best non-FW ground anti air vehicle you can take)


510 points [$190] (bare bones) and you get, one scoring unit (backed with the Ark), two AV13 front and side vehicles, an anti deathstar unit, and 4 Str7 TW shots that add two extra hits on a six. You can drop the Deathmark squad too, to make it cheep.

I'm curious if people have most success trying to go for the kill against 'Drakes compared to stripping hull points.

With the 5++ and IWND, my gut is telling me that aiming to remove hull points in a timely fashion is less useful compared to using AP2/1 weapons and hoping for either a dead flyer or a weapon destroyed result.

Do both. Remove hull points with AP2/1 weapons. Hey look, there's this thing called a Vendetta that does it super well!

No one expects the Vendetta! its primary weapon is fear, fear and surprise.Its two weapons are fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency. Amongst its weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Emperor.

Vendettas or a crap of autocannons...

easysauce wrote:
I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

needs a point increase for sure, way too effective for the cost

Haha seriously? 170pts for a flamer! Ya! And the vendetta at 130 pts is OK though? Palease

MaximumBerzerker wrote:

easysauce wrote:
I dont know how to counter the helldrakes aside from sinking tonnes of points and $ into allying guard with vendettas...

other day I tabled a guy by top of turn 2 save for his two helldrakes and a forge fiend...

the hell drakes then destroyed 1500pts worth of a 1700 pt army by themselves, unmolested, despite psycannons, two psyflemen, precience...

happens every time I play chaos too, the chickens win the game every time,

needs a point increase for sure, way too effective for the cost

Haha seriously? 170pts for a flamer! Ya! And the vendetta at 130 pts is OK though? Palease

An AP3 flamer, with torrent and turret. It's a marine players worst fear at the moment.

Yes I agree but it def doesn't need a point increase. Do we really need to go over all the great things about the vendetta here? People just need to learn how to counter it and mitigate its abilities. I play against a guy who bitches about how good the drake is and how it just wrecks his army everytime we play, yet he never changes his list and places his marines in a nice line perfect for a good templating.

Mitigating the Heldrake's lethality is something players should learn, however actually countering it is another matter. I don't believe it needs a point increase but I feel there needs to be more effective anti-air Codex options. Codex: DA was a step in the right direction (flakk missiles and a "jetfighter") but ultimately proved to be largely ineffective. Right now the best way to counter a Heldrake is to either take allies (IG) or turn to Forgeworld. Personally I'm fine with doing either, but not everyone wants to (or can) turn to these options.

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

I didn't read everyone's opinions but I'd just ally SW give those blobs (that are spaced out) ATSKNF and then a Priest with Long Fangs to do damage AND give them a Juicy target. In addition 3 Vendettas to kill anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually the best way to beat him is to never play someone who's that cheesy

Stormraven w/multi-melta, assault cannon, and missiles. Should be able to cripple or destroy a drake per turn. No allies needed.

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

the template is only hitting 4-5 models, vector strike is the other 3 wounds,

its a torrent... not a flamer, even spread out you will get hit 4-5 times, heaven forbid terrain means you have to squeeze together a bit,
or you are just exiting combat with a 1" consolodate,

easysauce wrote:

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

the template is only hitting 4-5 models, vector strike is the other 3 wounds,

its a torrent... not a flamer, even spread out you will get hit 4-5 times, heaven forbid terrain means you have to squeeze together a bit,
or you are just exiting combat with a 1" consolodate,

Yeah, and a vindicator would be terrible to have inflicted upon you in the same circumstances. This whole thread is full of people cherrypicking scenarios where the helldrake is the be all and end all. Yes, its strong, but its not half as fethed as half of everyone here is suggesting.

Sure, if you just got out of combat and got a 1'' consolidate, you may be a bit hammered, but that's a price you pay for having been locked in that combat and safe from ALL shooting previously. Spread your dudes out if you see a bale-flamer around, simple as that.

Hell, races like eldar, tau and to a lesser extent necrons have had to deal with flamers wiping expensive models with no saves allowed for a long time.You deal with it, not quit and bitch. It's strong, but its not a win-button as long as you treat it with a modicum of intelligence while you play

I think the Vendetta is a much more massive problem to the game than the Helldrake myself. The "fix" for marines is to use stormraven/stormtalon/whatever DA gets. But in a TAC environment, points allocated to counter the helldrakes get fething owned by the Vendetta, almost trivially.

The Vendettas can then clean up tanks and teqs after clearing fliers. It's even not that inefficient to fire them at marine vets. Oh and drop plasma and melta dudes in your face. Because at 130 pt hovering Vendetta is not really much more vulnerable for the points than a run of the mill marine dreadnought. Not like hovering a 230 point Stormraven.

Interestingly, as BA I have more trouble with the CSM themselves than the helldrakes. Unless they bring three. I can handle two. But I can't dedicate anymore to Stormravens, because then if I draw a Vendetta list, I just lose.

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:

davou wrote:

easysauce wrote:
ummm... yeah i tried to kill the forge feind, i had all three objectives with troops on it in cover

which means nothing to drakes,

by that time we have had 6 baleflamer templates killing things, by then the feinds had killed my dreads too

if i had killed it I would have won,

but despite my warlord having 30+ guys to have to burn through, ( he moved from squad to squad as tehy were decimated) and a chimera, all that was killed in turn, and then the warlord killed

any way you cut it, a drake WILL 100% kill 5-8 marines a turn, nothing but an invul will stop it, aside from shooting the damn thing down

marines, will not kill a drake a turn, despite being more points

If he can place a template over 8 marines per round, then you are doing something wrong, not the helldrake.

the template is only hitting 4-5 models, vector strike is the other 3 wounds,

its a torrent... not a flamer, even spread out you will get hit 4-5 times, heaven forbid terrain means you have to squeeze together a bit,
or you are just exiting combat with a 1" consolodate,

Yeah, and a vindicator would be terrible to have inflicted upon you in the same circumstances. This whole thread is full of people cherrypicking scenarios where the helldrake is the be all and end all. Yes, its strong, but its not half as fethed as half of everyone here is suggesting.

Sure, if you just got out of combat and got a 1'' consolidate, you may be a bit hammered, but that's a price you pay for having been locked in that combat and safe from ALL shooting previously. Spread your dudes out if you see a bale-flamer around, simple as that.

Hell, races like eldar, tau and to a lesser extent necrons have had to deal with flamers wiping expensive models with no saves allowed for a long time.You deal with it, not quit and bitch. It's strong, but its not a win-button as long as you treat it with a modicum of intelligence while you play

vindicatores have less range then drakes (6"move + 24), have to roll scatter so no auto hits, I can put units in COVER against vindicators, i can get close to your units so you cant use the big blast, I can LOS your tank with cover, (drakes are never out of LOS with a 36" move and 360 turret) dont get regen, dont get 5++, dont get to move 36", are not hit on 6's, can be assaulted...

not even close to the same, not by a long shot.

I have had no problem against lists that spam vindicators, russes, necron monoliths, land raiders...


im not bitching or quiting... all I asked for was how people actually counter them when their codex has poor AA choices, and I stipulated I didnt/cant take storm ravens or dettas

replying to me asking for tactics/units i might not have heard about, with something like "learn to play, spread out and no more problems" isnt helpful, my guys are 2" apart, and spread out as much as allowed by the particuar situation they are in at all times, as they have been for the last 14 years of 40k gaming.

how a 7.5 " torrent template will only hit one or two guys spred out 2" from each other is beyond me,

even in a perfect world with no terrain, no consolodates, or bad diff terrain moves, where I can put models at max coherancy, 3 models will be hit by the bale, at minimun, and 2-4 will be hit from vector...



thankfully someone helpfully pointed out sabre defence platforms which seem like a good low points alternative should taking more ++ save units not work out.