flyers and FMC's can vector strike a unit they pass over,

inlficint d3 hits at a STR and AP value as per the vector strike rule.

wounds must be in LOS to be allocated, except in certain specified exceptions (blast scatter, barrage, for example)

vector strike does not seem to have permission to allocate wounds out of the LOS of the attacking model.

therefor the RAW do not allow a FMC< or flyer to vector strike a unit AFTER it has entered reserves by flying off the table.

do you agree?

Yes, absolutely correct by RAW.

Also note - you're incorrect on scattering blasts. They don't have specific permission to allocate wounds out of LoS but that's a different thread.

The FAQ says the hits are distributed randomly, no need for LoS. You only need to have passed over the unit to do the Vector Strike, you are not required to still be on the table.

So yes, you can Vector Strike from reserves.

distributed randomly is not the same as not needing LOS,

it just means all the models are assumed to be closest,

where do you have permission to resolve those wounds without LOS?

Where does it say that you need LoS?

Vector Striking isn't shooting.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Where does it say that you need LoS?

Vector Striking isn't shooting.

Then how do you populate the wound pool and allocate wounds and take saves without using the shooting rules. Page and Graph reference please.

allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

where are those rules?

oh they dont exist?

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,


or link the third type of atttack that has rules for allocating out of LOS please, otherwise we just assume thats how vector strike works

 Grey Templar wrote:
Where does it say that you need LoS?

Vector Striking isn't shooting.

Random allocation uses the wound pool.
What does the Out of Sight rule on page 16 do?

easysauce wrote:
allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,

So indirect fire cannot possibly wound? There are several instances where LOS is not required to wound.

 Crackgnome wrote:

easysauce wrote:
allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,

So indirect fire cannot possibly wound? There are several instances where LOS is not required to wound.

Please use actual rules that are written instead of inserting bias.

The rules for vector strike specifically state that the flyer simply must have moved over the model, and does not mention anything regarding LOS in any way.

"... At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. Against vehicles these hits are resolved against side armor..."

Nowhere does it state the model must have LOS, nor that it is a shooting attack. The target simply takes hits.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The rules for vector strike specifically state that the flyer simply must have moved over the model, and does not mention anything regarding LOS in any way.

"... At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. Against vehicles these hits are resolved against side armor..."

Nowhere does it state the model must have LOS, nor that it is a shooting attack. The target simply takes hits.

Great. Now - how does a Vector Strike allocate wounds?

Randomly as with any other non-directional hits (i.e. Imotehk)

 Crackgnome wrote:
Randomly as with any other non-directional hits (i.e. Imotehk)

Citation required.

I think the confusion, Crackgnome, comes from the fact that there is precedent so far in this edition to be able to HIT a unit, but be unable to allocate a WOUND to it. (I'm already confused )

Personally, it seems to me that you can indeed Vector Strike from Reserves. I think that claiming otherwise just bucks common sense. Until I see an FAQ saying that I shouldn't be, I will continue to allow flying monstrous creatures that fly off the table to inflict their Vector Strike attacks on my marines.

Still, I encourage people to email the rules questions section at GW for clarification.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The rules for vector strike specifically state that the flyer simply must have moved over the model, and does not mention anything regarding LOS in any way.

"... At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. Against vehicles these hits are resolved against side armor..."

Nowhere does it state the model must have LOS, nor that it is a shooting attack. The target simply takes hits.

it doesnt say it ignores LOS, why do we assume it ignores LOS simply because the specific attack doesnt say it conforms to normal LOS rules? GW mentions when things are the exception, we dont assume everythings the exception unless GW mentions it follows normal rules.

where in shooting/CC does it say you can allocate without LOS?

specific weapons can, and are named as being allowed to do so without LOS (indirect fire ect)

vector strike is not specifically named


you can have 3 models in a unit, al equally far from the shooter, and 10 models inthat unit out of LOS from the shooter,

you can HIT that unit as many times as you want,

and because the 3 see-able models are equal distance, remove them randomly,

but you will never be able to allocate wounds to the 10 models out of LOS, the extra hits are wasted


lets assume that yes, you can wound without LOS on things such as vector strike, it came from the deep, polymorphine,

why do you also assume the flyer/FMC can allocate wounds after it has left combat airspace, and is in reserves?

where is the rule allowing drakes to cause hits after its left the table, let alone allocate wounds out of LOS, while in reserves?

can barrage weapons fire from reserve as well then?

because barrage weapons do not need LOS either,
and the book actually has written this into their rules, as opposed to drakes where we just assume LOS is not needed

and we cannot interpret the RAW one way for drakes and another for basilisks,

if not needing LOS means the drake can hit + wound from reserves,

then not needing LOS means the basilisk can as well. (only difference is that wounds get allocated from the center of the hole, instead of randomly, and rules do tell youto allocate barrage from the center)

The main issue with that argument being that Basilisks can't roll to shoot from reserves.
The Helldrake was on the table at the beginning of the turn, and can move over units, thus allowing them to hit the units, and their exit point logically being the point from which you allocate.
The Basilisks weren't on the table at all, and thus cannot declare a shooting attack.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The main issue with that argument being that Basilisks can't roll to shoot from reserves.
The Helldrake was on the table at the beginning of the turn, and can move over units, thus allowing them to hit the units, and their exit point logically being the point from which you allocate.
The Basilisks weren't on the table at all, and thus cannot declare a shooting attack.

the helldrake isnt on the table when hits are caused, it has already entered ongoing reserves,

hits from vector strike are done at the end of the movement phase,

drakes do not have a special rule saying vector strike ignores LOS,

allocation is just random,

drakes do not have aspecial rule saying they can cause those hits AFTER being placed in reserves, or resolve wounds while in reserve, even when we make the assumption that vector strike does not need LOS to the models being removed.


lets assume the basilisks are on the board then,

they do NOT need LOS to hit or wound,

so why cant they shoot at things in reserves?

because after all, something off the table, whilst being out of LOS, is still targetable right? (not actually, but if we accept that an attack that does not require LOS from a model in reserves can hit something on the table, then we have to accept that something on the table with a non LOS weapon can hit something in reserves)


very few actions are given express permission to be done by, or done to a unit in reserves,

please link the actual rules giving the drake permission make attacks without LOS, and from reserves

where does it say units in reserve can be damaged by units on the table?

where does it say units on the table can be damaged by units in reserve?

easysauce wrote:
allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

where are those rules?

oh they dont exist?

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,


or link the third type of atttack that has rules for allocating out of LOS please, otherwise we just assume thats how vector strike works

Where does it say that CC wounds need LOS? I can't find the reference in the CC rules. The "out of sight" rule is part of the shooting attack rules, but not part of the specific wound allocation rules. Therefore without a means go measure from the swooping flyer to the target unit you're left with 2 choices. The shooting rules require random allocation, while the CC rules allow the controlling player to remove wounded models that are equidistant from the attacking model.

I think the context of the Vector strike rule makes it pretty clear its a close combat attack (having to move over the unit and the references to savaging and tearing prey to pieces). However, even if you count the whole of the board edge as the location of the reserved flyer, its unlikely that all models in the target squad will be equidistant, so the next most relevant rule is the random allocation rule for shooting wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The comparison to a basilisk firing into reserve is fallacious. There is no mechanism for basilisks to choose reserved units as targets and no means to measure range, which is still required even if LOS isn't. By contrast the mechanism for choosing a target for a vector strike is simply that the striking model moved over the target unit during the movement phase.

except when CC attacks are all equidistance, the controlling playe chooses what models are allocated wounds,

and even when helldrake has LOS, and closest models, random models are removed.

is the helldrake in BTB with the units? is it engaged? is it making a pile in, resolving combat results ect.
does the attack have an I value?
where are challenges issued when resolving the attack?
CC attacks cant hit zooming flyers, yet Vector can.

lets assume no LOS for CC attacks,

can you perform close combat attacks from reserve?

imotekh comes to mind, or calldus assasins plymoprhine.

 pizzaguardian wrote:
imotekh comes to mind, or calldus assasins plymoprhine.

Except neither of those actually say how to allocate the wounds their hits cause.
RAW neither work. And neither does Vector Strike.

Vector Strikes have been FAQ'd to use random wound allocation in the FAQ for the 6th ed rule on the GW page. No mention of LOS needed.

But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

the random allocation basically bypasses the need for LoS(which normally prevents allocation and empties the wound pool)

assuming there is a need for LoS.

Also being base to base, initiative values and challenges and whatnot are all mechanisms for generating hits in the first instance. The vector strike rule has its own mechanism for that.

 Flinty wrote:
But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

This!

Why is everyone ignoring that Vector Strike is resolved *after* the model finishes moving (at the end of the movement phase, no less). So the fact that the model started the turn off the table has no bearing on this argument at all.

 yakface wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

This!

Why is everyone ignoring that Vector Strike is resolved *after* the model finishes moving (at the end of the movement phase, no less). So the fact that the model started the turn off the table has no bearing on this argument at all.

Yak - you're reading this backwards.
Model moves off the table into ongoing reserves and strikes on its way out. It is no longer on the table.

This isn't about striking while moving onto the board.

exactly, we make the assumption that they all get to allocate wounds outside of LOS, and logically that makes sense, why would they all have rules that do not work?

and whereas the callidius' rules specifically permit the hits to happening while the assasin is in reserve, before she is placed

the drakes attacks do not,

attacking from reserve is an action that must be given specific permision, cc or shooting.

asssuming thje drakes/callidius/ect can attack wihtout LOS, is not RAW, but is obviously RAI

attacking from reserves, is definetly not RAW, and it is very different from attacking with no LOS, which is also not RAW (but obviously is RAI)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

This!

Why is everyone ignoring that Vector Strike is resolved *after* the model finishes moving (at the end of the movement phase, no less). So the fact that the model started the turn off the table has no bearing on this argument at all.

Yak - you're reading this backwards.
Model moves off the table into ongoing reserves and strikes on its way out. It is no longer on the table.

This isn't about striking while moving onto the board.

no i do not, and no this isnt about vector striking while moving on to the board, that is VS'ing while the FMC/drake is on the board and not in reserves, there shouldnt be an issue with that (aside from assuming LOS'less strikes get allocated, which is a safe assumption, but not RAW)

what we are talking about here,

is when:
the drake moves over a unit and leaves the table, entering ongoing reserves. it is now in reserves,

the player finished the movement phase, at the end of it is when vector strike is resolved.

but at the end of the movement phase, the drake has already left combat airspace, and is in ongoing reserves.

it then attempts to resolve vector strike from reserves.

what gives it permission to resolve attacks from reserve? CC or shooting.

other special rules attacks, such as plymorphine, give the model express permission to attack from reserves, VS does not.

easysauce wrote:

attacking from reserves, is definetly not RAW, and it is very different from attacking with no LOS, which is also not RAW (but obviously is RAI)

At no time is the model making the vetor strike attacking from reserves. The hits are generated during the model's movement and merely resolved at the end of the movement phase.

 Flinty wrote:

easysauce wrote:

attacking from reserves, is definetly not RAW, and it is very different from attacking with no LOS, which is also not RAW (but obviously is RAI)

At no time is the model making the vetor strike attacking from reserves. The hits are generated during the model's movement and merely resolved at the end of the movement phase.

Not true. Page 43 says the hits are not rolled until the end of the movement phase. The unit isn't even nominated until the end of the movement phase.

But you choose a unit you moved over, so the hit generation is effectively back-dated.

 Flinty wrote:
But you choose a unit you moved over, so the hit generation is effectively back-dated.

No, not at all. The unit is nominated at the end of the phase, the hits are generated after nominating the unit, and wounds are converted from hits after that.

There's a pretty clear order of operations here and none of it happens while the Striker is on the table.

And none of it is affected by the unit being in reserves at the start or end of its move.

FYI, shooting attacks require LOS, in fact, so do CC attacks


BRB pg 8 middle left

a model normally needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, weather with powersword, gun, or psychic power.

and assault attacks, as per pg 22 BRB

in close combat, both players models fight. Attacks in close combat work like shots in shooting

movement phase starts,
FMC/drake is moved, over a unit, and into reserves.
opponent finishes moving.
end of phase, drake is already off the table in ongoing reserves,

and nominates a unit it wishes to attack,

this unit now, in addition to being out of LOS, is being attacked by something in reserves.


where are you given permission to attack from reserves with the FMC/helldrake?

flyers rules even go on to say pg 82

the flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters ongoing reserves"

so it has left combat airspace, but even after the fact gets to engage in combat?

in a permissive ruleset, you need permission to do something contrary to the standard procedure, where is the rule granting helldrake permission to attack from reserves?

the only rules under reserves are for arriving from them, not attacking from them,

therefor barring express permission, not assumed permission, no attacks may be made with units in reserve.

helldrake has the same permission every other unit in the game has to attack from reserves (ie none)

please, quote me a rule that says "x may attack from reserves"

or quote me a rule stating that after something has entered reserves, it is allowed to do anything save arrive from reserves in the appropriate manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
And none of it is affected by the unit being in reserves at the start or end of its move.

care to back that up with a rule?

thats a pretty big assumption that models can use special rules from reserve, they cannot cast powers, make attacks, make moves, or do anything from reserves, all we can do is arrive via appropriate method. the model has moved over the unit, it cannot however use special rules, make attacks, move, change flight modes ect from reserve



here are the actual written rules on ongoing reserves

pg 125 brb

if a unit enters ongoing reserves part way through the game, such as a flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering ongoing reserves. Units in ongoing reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for reserves.

units in reserves are not in play,

FMC's/drakes enter ongoing reserves, and are removed from play, prior to using vector strike.

nothing has been quoted giving anything, let alone FMC/drakes permission to do anything except arrive from reserves, there are no rules allowing attacks(of any kind) from reserves

Vector strike is a special rule and therefore by definition not normal. Shooting rules explicitly require line of sight, CC attacks implicitly require line of sight through the who can fight rules, base contact, etc.

The permission is simply the vector strike rule, which js a soecial ruke and therefore works somewhat aside from the normal rules. Is it the end of the movement phase? Did your vector striking unit pass over an enemy unit? If the answer to both is yes, then permission is given to assign hits, which are then assigned randomly in accordance with the faq.

Damnit. Need to catch a train... back tomorrow

Does Vector Strike allocate from a Wound Pool?
What does Out of Sight say with respect the to Wound Pool?

your reasoning that vector strike is "special rule" that trumps normal ones, doesnt cut it, "Reserves" is also a special rule, and is applied FIRST. it is only removed once the model re enters play.

when a unit is in reserves, the reserves special rule applies to it, BEFORE it is able to use its vector strike special rule,

reserves special rule states the model is out of play, and may only "arrive" from reserves using the appropriate method (not attack)

vector strike would need to give permission to use it after the model has left play/entered reserves



so again, quote the rule gives you permission to
A:ignore the special reserves rule, that is on the model, BEFORE the vector strike rule is used
B:ignore that Reserves doesnt allow for attacking from reserves


I have quoted actual rules, and the actual order of them,

drake moves off the table, the "Reserves" rule is applied first, and vector strike does not say it ignored this special rule (as in the case of say, deepstrike mentions it modifies the normal reserves rule) so it has no permission to be used in the first place,

its not that the rule doesnt say you can strike a unit you flew over,

its that you cannot use the special rule in the first place, since you are in reserves before the rule is used.

if you are vector striking while the special rules for reserves are in place, you are breaking the RESERVES special rule, which does specifically overide the model being able to perform any action other then arriving later on


while its not my core reason, it is noteworthy that
FMC are also prohibited from changing flight modes in reserve,

because they are "too busy trying to get back on the battle field"

so if you need fluff to explain why it doesn't work, well that unit has to not only fly across the board, but out of combat airspace, and back, its far too busy to change flight modes, so it must be far too busy to stop and maul some guys, after it already left combat airspace.



thats in addition to the special rule for "reserves" being applied first, and that it does not allow models to use attacks, or special rules(other then deepstrike, outflank ect), from reserves.

Look easysauce, the question of how vector striking happens when a model moves off the board has no bearing on making the strike.
The player has permission to assign the hits to the unit that the flyer flew over. The only question is does this attack require los.

There are effects that cause wounds that do not populate wound pools, Gets hot and perils spring to mind. The los restriction only occurs if there is a wound pool. Wounds causes by shooting at buildings requires neither a pool, los or the normal allocation rules. Mysterious forests break the normal allocation rules too.

Since by the wording it's random allocation of hits rather than wounds where is the need for los? It doesn't seem to be following the shooting rules at all.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Look easysauce, the question of how vector striking happens when a model moves off the board has no bearing on making the strike.
The player has permission to assign the hits to the unit that the flyer flew over. The only question is does this attack require los.

There are effects that cause wounds that do not populate wound pools, Gets hot and perils spring to mind. The los restriction only occurs if there is a wound pool. Wounds causes by shooting at buildings requires neither a pool, los or the normal allocation rules.

Since by the wording it's random allocation of hits rather than wounds where is the need for los? It doesn't seem to be following the shooting rules at all.

The random allocation rules require a wound pool.
Since the random allocation rules require a wound pool, vector strike must populate the wound pool.

What does out of sight do?

Is it random allocation of hits? Because that doesn't populate a wound pool.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Look easysauce, the question of how vector striking happens when a model moves off the board has no bearing on making the strike.
The player has permission to assign the hits to the unit that the flyer flew over. The only question is does this attack require los.

the player only gains permission to assign hits from the vector strike special rule, after that special rule is triggered at the END of the movement phase.

since the VS special rule is triggered AFTER the reserves special rule is triggered, the reserves rule must be applied first,

reserves does not allow for use of special rules, outside of deepstrike, outflank, let alone for off the table hit/wound allocation,


you cannot ignore the fact that the model enters reserves, and is affected by the reserves special rule, before the end of the movement phase.

making the strike is 100% dependent on the model being allowed to use the special rule vector strike rule in the first place, and models that are in reserve dont get to use special rules (save rules specifically saying they apply to reserves, deepstrike ect)

you need to prove you can use the special rule "vector strike" from reserves, because reserves rules are quiet clear, you only get to arrive from them, not attack, hit, wound, cast powers, ect

that vector strike says to nominate a model you flew over, that means NOTHING if you cannot use the skill from reserves in the first place

its like complaining that you get a FnP save after an ID wound,

one special rule cancels the other out,

since you cannot use a models special rules from reserve, and the FMC/drake is in reserve before it uses its special rule "vector strike" , then you dont get to use it,

so plan your flight routs and dont enter reserves if you want to use special rules that are not allowed to be used in reserves

I only see restrictions on special rules that happen at the start of the turn that a unit enters play. Nothing about rules when a model enters ongoing reserves.
Page number please to this rule I am missing.

flyers rules even go on to say pg 82

it is quite likely that a flyer making a zoom move will leave the board, either dliberatly, or by accident. if this happens the flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters ongoing reserves"

pg 125

units in ongoing reserves always re-enter play at the start of their controlling players next turn.

the model is out of play while in reserve,
even so much as they count as DEAD if the game ends as such
they are unable to perform any action that is not a form of arriving from reserves, while they are in reserves, if you disagree with this, quote the rule saying you can attack, or cast precognition, or do anything aside from "arrive" from reserves

pg125 only has rules for arriving from reserves, it does not have rules for attacking from reserves

pg 125 BRB

unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserves.

restrictions on actions in this rule show that they apply not only to units while in reserve,

for at the start of the turn where they arrive, they are still in reseve
but GW goes further and places these restrictions on on the turn they arrive.

all a unit in reserves lets you do, is roll for reserves, (or in ongoing reserves you are given permission to arrive automatically next turn, thats it, nothing more.)

end of story,

you are given slightly more permissions for a unit when it arrives from reserves,

you are only given permission to MOVE because arriving from reserves allows it, not from the movement rules on earlier pages
you are not allowed to assault
and spells out the exact details for how you move on from reserves,


why do you contend that the normal movement, shooting, special rules and other actions do apply to models already in reserve?

If you absolutely must have LOS to allocate wounds for vector strike, make sure your reserves are in view of the board edge, problem solved.

easysauce wrote:
flyers rules even go on to say pg 82

it is quite likely that a flyer making a zoom move will leave the board, either dliberatly, or by accident. if this happens the flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters ongoing reserves"

pg 125

units in ongoing reserves always re-enter play at the start of their controlling players next turn.

the model is out of play while in reserve,
even so much as they count as DEAD if the game ends as such
they are unable to perform any action that is not a form of arriving from reserves, while they are in reserves, if you disagree with this, quote the rule saying you can attack, or cast precognition, or do anything aside from "arrive" from reserves

pg125 only has rules for arriving from reserves, it does not have rules for attacking from reserves

pg 125 BRB

unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserves.

You've created a straw man and while he has a lovely tailored suit you've still got a straw man.
None of that answers my question, where is the specific restriction on a special ability of a unit exiting the board and entering ongoing reserves?
The model isn't arriving from reserves, the requirements for vector strike are already met where is the roadblock?


I can cast a malediction and go off the board with my flying daemon prince, does the malediction go away?
If an FMC is killed by the shots from Corteaz the turn it arrives from reserves what stops you allocating the hits to a unit it moved over?
Just because the unit that caused the hits is no longer on the board doesn't magically remove them. The rule was fulfilled and the hits must be allocated.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is it random allocation of hits? Because that doesn't populate a wound pool.

No, it's the random allocation method of allocating wounds. Wounds are not hits. So the wound pool is populated and...

I can cast a malediction and go off the board with my flying daemon prince, does the malediction go away?
If an FMC is killed by the shots from Corteaz the turn it arrives from reserves what stops you allocating the hits to a unit it moved over?
Just because the unit that caused the hits is no longer on the board doesn't magically remove them. The rule was fulfilled and the hits must be allocated.

yes you can cast a malediction and THEN move off the board,

can you move off the board, THEN cast a malediction?

no? why? psykers can cast powers right, and my psyker in reserves must have los to himself right?

because ongoing reserves doesnt allow you to do anything but arrive automatically next turn, otherwise we could cast some powers while in reserve, but we cannot.

can you move on to the board with a drake and use a special rule,
yes

can you move off the board and enter reserves and arrive automatically next turn?

yes, because ongoing reserves says you can,

you are not given permission to perform any other action or special rule when you enter ongoing reserves, you are only allowed to arrive next turn

quote the rule that says you allows you to do anything other then roll for reserves, or arrive automatically from ongoing reserves,

those are the ONLY actions allowed while in reserves, quote where permission to used weapons, special rules, move while IN reserves

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is it random allocation of hits? Because that doesn't populate a wound pool.

No, it's the random allocation method of allocating wounds. Wounds are not hits. So the wound pool is populated and...

Well if it is populating a wound pool that's fine. I'd buy that, the wording looks a bit more like it's the allocation of hits but it wouldn't be the first time GW mess up an FAQ with poor writing.

@easysauce. Take a chill pill. You want me to provide permission to carry out an action from reserves but there was permission for the strike to occur when it moved.
How it ended it's movement phase doesn't matter. If coteaz blew it apart or if it ends up in reserves that doesn't change the fact that a model with vector strike moved over the unit while in swooping mode.

easysauce wrote:

I can cast a malediction and go off the board with my flying daemon prince, does the malediction go away?
If an FMC is killed by the shots from Corteaz the turn it arrives from reserves what stops you allocating the hits to a unit it moved over?
Just because the unit that caused the hits is no longer on the board doesn't magically remove them. The rule was fulfilled and the hits must be allocated.

yes you can cast a malediction and THEN move off the board,

can you move off the board, THEN cast a malediction?

no? why? psykers can cast powers right, and my psyker in reserves must have los to himself right?

because ongoing reserves doesnt allow you to do anything but arrive automatically next turn, otherwise we could cast some powers while in reserve, but we cannot.

can you move on to the board with a drake and use a special rule,
yes

can you move off the board and enter reserves and arrive automatically next turn?

yes, because ongoing reserves says you can,

you are not given permission to perform any other action or special rule when you enter ongoing reserves, you are only allowed to arrive next turn

quote the rule that says you allows you to do anything other then roll for reserves, or arrive automatically from ongoing reserves,

those are the ONLY actions allowed while in reserves, quote where permission to used weapons, special rules, move while IN reserves

Except the trigger of the Vector Strike happens while the Helldrake is on the table(it moved over an enemy model/unit)

The trigger is all that is needed to cause the rule to occur.

Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

rigeld2 wrote:
Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

Ah but that is different to the vector strike cannot occur. That just means the wounds in the wound pool are discarded.

Similarly, I can scatter my shots all over the board and hit units out of LOS, the wound pool is populated but that is where it ends.

rigeld2 wrote:
Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

Normally they are discarded as you need LoS to allocate, however Vector Strike uses random allocation. Which bypasses the LoS requirement.

let me put it this way,

turn one,

what actions can the unit IN reserves perform on turn one?

nothing, no special rules, moves assaults, attacks ect,

no permission is given to roll untill turn 2

what actions can be performed in reserves turn 2+?

you get to roll to come on, besides that, nothing

what actions can be performs when a unit enters ongoing reserves?

pg 125 only states
you can arrive automatically next turn, again no permission given to move, assault, use special rules ect.


since the FMC/drake has already entered ongoing reserves before its special rule has triggered, it has no permision to use that special rule.

other wise you are saying "i get to move over the unit and VS them because I get to move over the unit and VS them"

despite the model having entered ongoing reserves, PRIOR to the end of the movement phase (trigger for vector strike special rule)

that model in ongoing reserves, is allowed to arrive automatically next turn,

that is all pg 125 says,

if you want to add house rules for a unit in ongoing reserve being able to perform more then this single action, feel free, but that is all the book permits

Well that depends, does the entering of ongoing reserves trigger any effects? In this case it does.

Page 125 is not saying what you think it does.

I have quoted all the things you are given permission to do in both reserves and ongoing reserves,

none of it includes using special rules,

the onus of proof is on you to quote the rule saying you can use special rules from reserves.

by exclusion, we already know they cannot be



as to the above, vector strike is NOT triggered by the model entering reserves, it is triggered at the end of the movement phase, and is usable by a model on the board, but not usable by a model in ongoing reserves.
ongoing reserves has rules for one action,
and that is arriving,
prove pg 125 says you can do other things from ongoing reserves or admit its just HYWPI

I'm sorry I'm not making myself clear. You have provided the wrong rules and are standing by them. That is fine but the restriction is ONLY on the model in reserves using rules that come into effect the turn they enter play NOT when they exit play.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'm sorry I'm not making myself clear. You have provided the wrong rules and are standing by them. That is fine but the restriction is ONLY on the model in reserves using rules that come into effect the turn they enter play NOT when they exit play.

so on turn one, models in reserve, who are not arriving from reserve,

can move, shoot, cast powers and use all their special rules?

that is what you are asserting,

how about you explain to me, using rules quoted please

what are models allowed to do in reserves?

what are models allowed to do in ongoing reserves?

But the model was on the board that turn at the start of that turn.
Honestly I cannot see specific permission but there is no restriction and the conditions of the special rule have been met.

A model in reserve turn one can stay there. It wasn't on the board to do anything or have conditions of vector strike met. I never said that a unit in reserves could effect the board. I said that a unit on the board can effect the board.
Models in ongoing reserves are treated like models in reserves. An important distinction is that the models in reserve weren't on the board to effect gameplay.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
But the model was on the board that turn.

the model is in on the board at the beginning of the turn.

it is is ongoing reserves before the turn ends, it is therefor in ongoing reserves before vector strike is allowed to trigger

what actions are you allowed to perform in ongoing reserves?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Honestly I cannot see specific permission but there is no restriction and the conditions of the special rule have been met.

yup because there is no permission, and we both know its a permissive rule set.

the conditions of the special rule have not been met,

because before that special rule gets to be used,

the model with it is under the effects of the ongoing reserves special rule,

and special rules have not been given blanket permission to be used from ongoing reserve

easysauce wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
But the model was on the board that turn.

the model is in on the board at the beginning of the turn.

it is is ongoing reserves before the turn ends, it is therefor in ongoing reserves before vector strike is allowed to trigger

what actions are you allowed to perform in ongoing reserves?

Moving is the action that allows the model to Vector Strike. the criteria has been met, therefore the action happens.

AH but the special rule was triggered before the end of the movement , it is carried out at the end of the phase. It is resolved while the model is in ongoing reserves.
Similar to how an interceptor can shoot at models who's movement onto the board happened within it's range.

What actions are you allowed to preform when a FMC moves over a unit?

Yes, so although it is resolved after the model is off the table, the trigger has already occured. Meaning all conditions have been met and you are clear to resolve the action.

@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

I understand people use a misquote of page 22 to justify that all attacks need los as "Attacks in close combat work like shots in shooting-..." but the rest of the paragraph explains what that means. I can think of a few examples where a model in a unit can strike blows but not draw los in cc such as combat spilling around corners and through terrain.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

Find restrictions on allocating wounds that aren't CC or shooting attacks.

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

Normally they are discarded as you need LoS to allocate, however Vector Strike uses random allocation. Which bypasses the LoS requirement.

It doesn't bypass LoS at all actually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

Gets hot, perils, wounds from shooting at buildings, wounds from mysterious forests.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

Find restrictions on allocating wounds that aren't CC or shooting attacks.

You have that backwards. There is permission and instructions on allocating wounds for shooting and CC. Vector Strike uses random allocation - which is defined where exactly?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
AH but the special rule was triggered before the end of the movement , it is carried out at the end of the phase. It is resolved while the model is in ongoing reserves.
Similar to how an interceptor can shoot at models who's movement onto the board happened within it's range.

What actions are you allowed to preform when a FMC moves over a unit?

except you do actually get to use vector strike at the "end" of the movement phase, not after you move over a unit
seriously,
now this is in circles, you are trying to assert that vector strike is not triggered at the "end" of the movement phase.

IF the special rule is triggered, its target must be a model you moved over,

the rule is NOT triggered immediately after moving over the target, that is a completely different wording then the rulebook.

IF vector strike did say nominate a unit you have moved over after the drake has moved, then yes, you could actually say that the special rule is at least triggered at the SAME time as the unit entering ongoing reserves, and as the controlling player choose what to do first.

but that is not when VS says it happens, it says it happens at the end, after its too late and the model is already bound by the ongoing reserves rule.

you are in ongoing reserves before the end of your movement phase, that is a fact

vector strike occurs at the END of the movement phase, assuming you have a model that can use it.

with only one specifically defined action open to you by that special rule, your options whilst in ongoing reserves are limited


and there has been nothing quoted giving permission to do anything but arrive next turn.


if you trigger/resolve vector strike after you moved over the unit, you have done it before then end of the phase, which is not when it tells you to do VS

at the end of the phase? the rules say its done at the end of the phase, nominating a unit it passed over doesn't mean passing over that unit triggered vector strike, it just means that is the target if/when vector strike is triggered.

so please stop saying that flying over the unit triggers VS, it does not,

and a unit in ongoing reserves before the end of the turn is bound by the ongoing reserves special rules, before it gets a chance to use the vector strike rule

it is not given permission to use special powers, move, shoot, change flight modes.

we know for a fact that the FMC.drake enters ongoing reserves, leaving play before VS can be triggered

pg 125 brb

if a unit enters ongoing reserves part way through the game, such as a flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering ongoing reserves. Units in ongoing reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for reserves.

you are literally saying models not in play get to use special rules while in ongoing reserves,

back that up with a rule saying you can.

repetition of vector strike occurring before then end of the turn is not backed up by the rules.

Has a model with vector strike moved over a unit? Yes
Is there any other restriction? If so page number.

Vector strike does occur before the end of the turn. The rules say it happens at the end of the movement phase.
We have two rules here that do not interact. The reserves rule is a restriction on what you can do while in reserve and when not in play but the fmc in this case was in play and was not in reserve when it fulfilled the condition of the rule. I have a model that can VS it was the one that moved over your unit and went into ongoing reserves.

Look at it this way. You have permission to enter ongoing reserves and to make vector strikes when moving. You have permission to preform either and no restrictions on preform both.

You're argument is that because units usually do not enter reserves and have a special rule effect the board that this act breaks the restrictions imposed on units when entering play.
Do you see the disconnect there?

Is there a rule stating abilities must be resolved even when the conditions as such that the rule cannot occur anymore?

Such as it is, if the model is not on the field anymore and not in play and unable to do anything in reserve, can it complete the action or ability it was attempting to use? If so, how does it do so? Is that specific rule or ability able to ignore the more generic rule of what reserves allow models to do?

In short, can a Vector Strike occur when the model does not exist in play anymore given it leaves play while executing that action by going to reserves?

Or alteratively, what allows a model to start a Vector Strike in play but finish it from Reserves? Yes the model has not been killed and can come back, but can it still affect things on the field as it is doing an action?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Has a model with vector strike moved over a unit? Yes
Is there any other restriction? If so page number.

yes the fmc must both be zooming, and be able to use the special rule at the end of the turn

the FMC is unable to use special rules due to being in ongoing reserves before the end of the turn.

again, you are equating moving over the target, as the trigger, it is not.

You nominate a unit as a result of vector strike, moving over a unit is not the CAUSE of vector strike, it is the targeting method. which can only be used when the special rule itself can be,

the restriction is the model has the rule ongoing reserves applied to it before the vector strike rule is allowed to be used,

why does repeating "the model has moved over a unit" suddenly make the special rule used prior to when the rules say it does?

@ Warone
Well specific rules do override general restrictions, the issue I see is that there are no rules to deal with the case of a model entering ongoing reserves and it's exit having an effect in and of itself.
The rules are not well rounded in this part. The only restrictions placed on a fmc in ongoing reserves is that it cannot change mode nor can it use special rules that come into effect at the start of the turn it re-enters play.

So the end result is that it is ambiguous whether a model can actually finish a Vector Strike. Models leaving play stop doing the things they were doing when they left play unless the reserve rules state somewhere that an ability or characteristic of the model remains changed from when it was in play.

Too bad this is not as clear cut as say charging and Overwatch wherein if a model dies to Overwatch while charging, it cannot complete the charge action.

easysauce wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Has a model with vector strike moved over a unit? Yes
Is there any other restriction? If so page number.

yes the fmc must both be zooming, and be able to use the special rule at the end of the turn

the FMC is unable to use special rules due to being in ongoing reserves before the end of the turn.

again, you are equating moving over the target, as the trigger, it is not.

You nominate a unit as a result of vector strike, nominating a unit is not the CAUSE of vector strike.

you do NOT vector strike as a result of passing over the unit, you vector strike as the result of using the special rule vector strike at the end of the movement phase

Firstly a FMC doesn't zoom. End of the turn? Really? It doesn't say that. Again it says end of movement phase.
So the result of being moved over by a VS model is being nominated? Does that mean that the movement is the cause?
Well yes the rule is resolved at the end of the phase. I said that, ages ago. I'm still failing to see how the restriction on using special rules at the start of next turns movement phase applies.
You seem to get less concise as this goes on please clean up your points so they are easier to understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:
So the end result is that it is ambiguous whether a model can actually finish a Vector Strike. Models leaving play stop doing the things they were doing when they left play unless the reserve rules state somewhere that an ability or characteristic of the model remains changed from when it was in play.

Too bad this is not as clear cut as say charging and Overwatch wherein if a model dies to Overwatch while charging, it cannot complete the charge action.

Yes I do agree it is left in a poor situation by the rules. It is somewhat a case of "the rules don't say I cannot" because there is no real restriction but one you can easily read into the rules. Easysauce refers to the restrictions on units entering play from reserves but I am unconvinced that is enough.

Without a specific rule restriction other than reserves stating what models can and cannot do, is there any FAQs out there that mention what happens to models as they enter reserve while performing an action or using an ability?

@Warone. Not that I've seen.

Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Examples?

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

No, it's not. Just like shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase.

Seems like this issue has arisen several times before.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509566.page

This is the last one and the debate ended before it got good. However it does help put different perspectives on similar points made.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Warone
Well specific rules do override general restrictions, the issue I see is that there are no rules to deal with the case of a model entering ongoing reserves and it's exit having an effect in and of itself.
The rules are not well rounded in this part. The only restrictions placed on a fmc in ongoing reserves is that it cannot change mode nor can it use special rules that come into effect at the start of the turn it re-enters play.

we all know the rules say you cant do much when you arrive from reserves,

but why is it that we can not use special rules at the beginning of a turn it enters from reserves if those special rules trigger at the beginning too?

because at the beginning of the turn, it was in reserves, and models in reserves cant do anything except roll to arrive, or arrive.


what are you allowed to do when you are actually in reserves?

are you allowed to do MORE then when you have just left reserves?

if so please quote these permissions given in reserves/ongoing reserves that let you do anything other then roll or arrive from reserves,

arriving from reserves gives you permission to move, shoot, and reminds you were not actually in play at the beginning of the turn, hence no beginning of turn special rules.

but the parts of the turn where you are in play, you do get to use the special rules triggered at that time.




so why is ongoing reserves more permissive then arriving from reserves, despite having less permitted actions?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Examples?

Gets hot, perils, wounds caused by glances and pens on buildings, wounds causes by mystery terrain.

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

No, it's not. Just like shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase.

Why isn't it? Wounds in cc should not have this restriction as there is no "firing unit". There is an attacking unit but you don't fire in cc.

easysauce wrote:



so why is ongoing reserves more permissive then arriving from reserves, despite having less permitted actions?

Does all special abilities and actions end when models re-enter active reserves? This may have pertinence as models that have actions or abilities with lingering effects on the field may not be able to maintain these effects anymore due to the requirement of them being unable to do anything while back in reserves.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Examples?

Gets hot, perils, wounds caused by glances and pens on buildings, wounds causes by mystery terrain.

Has its own rules, has its own rules, has its own rules, have their own rules.
Everything you mentioned works fine because they explain in their own rules section how to allocate wounds.

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

No, it's not. Just like shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase.

Shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase but wound allocation isn't restricted to one method only.

Vector Strike uses random allocation. Where is that found?

Fine. Yes it is in the shooting but if it's not a shooting attack why do you impose out of sight? There is no firing unit. Would extatic seizures (the slanneshi csm power) not be able to wound models out of LOS even though beyond the first model there is no shooting requirements? Also you missed the edit above.

The conventional wisdom is there is only 1 way to allocate wounds. This isn't true.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fine. Yes it is in the shooting but if it's not a shooting attack why do you impose out of sight? There is no firing unit. Would extatic seizures (the slanneshi csm power) not be able to wound models out of LOS even though beyond the first model there is no shooting requirements? Also you missed the edit above.

We impose Out of Sight because we aren't told not to. There's a wound pool, agreed? Why are you trying to use some rules but not others when there's no guidance on which ones to use?

Wounds in CC don't have this restriction because CC tells you how to allocate wounds - and it doesn't include the shooting methods.

The conventional wisdom is there is only 1 way to allocate wounds. This isn't true.

That's not the conventional wisdom at all. I'm not sure why you say that.

Well the last four words in out of sight are a clue the don't apply when it's not a shooting attack.
I think that is guidance enough.
Since vector strike is not a shooting attack there is no cause for it to apply.

Page 15, emptied wound pool. According to you this also does not apply and therefore the attack never ends. Congratulations on breaking the game.

 WarOne wrote:

easysauce wrote:



so why is ongoing reserves more permissive then arriving from reserves, despite having less permitted actions?

Does all special abilities and actions end when models re-enter active reserves? This may have pertinence as models that have actions or abilities with lingering effects on the field may not be able to maintain these effects anymore due to the requirement of them being unable to do anything while back in reserves.

the special rule does not end, it does not go off in the first place since it cant be used from ongoing reserves

doesnt affect cases where the model actually uses the special rule before leaving the board via ongoing reserves, or when a psyker casts something and dies before the full turn is up

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 15, emptied wound pool. According to you this also does not apply and therefore the attack never ends. Congratulations on breaking the game.

I was hoping to get an adult response from you on this but if you want to play that game then fine.
Where does the random method dictate the attack as a shooting attack?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well the last four words in out of sight are a clue the don't apply when it's not a shooting attack.
I think that is guidance enough.
Since vector strike is not a shooting attack there is no cause for it to apply.

again,

BRB pg 8 middle left

a model normally needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, weather with power sword, gun, or psychic power.

los is standard for all attacks unless noted against this normal rule.


where is the specific rule that says vector strike ignores the LOS rules for wounds?


rigeld2 is right, his point stands, you need to prove its the exception to the rule

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 15, emptied wound pool. According to you this also does not apply and therefore the attack never ends. Congratulations on breaking the game.

I was hoping to get a good response from you on this but if you want to play that game then fine.
The wound pool of shooting is emptied and you can shoot something else just because you use the random method doesn't make it a shooting attack.

"Play that game"? The shooting attack ends when the wound pool is emptied. If its not a shooting attack and no rules that reference shooting attacks can be followed, the attack never ends. It's never completely resolved. This cannot be correct and therefore your assertion that a rule referencing a shooting attack should be ignored cannot be correct.

The rule references a restriction on shooting attacks. There are other wound pools beyond the shooting one. Just because an attack is allocated by the random rules doesn't make it a shooting attack.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 15, emptied wound pool. According to you this also does not apply and therefore the attack never ends. Congratulations on breaking the game.

I was hoping to get an adult response from you on this but if you want to play that game then fine.
Where does the random method dictate the attack as a shooting attack?

Re-quoting to answer your edit.

It mentions "firing unit". It's in the Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties section of the Shooting Attack rules. The next step references shooting attack specifically (Emptied Wound Pool).

How is it not an adult response to show you the consequences of your assertion?

It's an absurd abstraction of applying limits of shooting attacks to shooting attacks but not non shooting attacks.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rule references a restriction on shooting attacks. There are other wound pools beyond the shooting one. Just because an attack is allocated by the random rules doesn't make it a shooting attack.

Since the Random Allocation rules exist in the Shooting Attack rules, and reference the "firing unit" directly (and shooting attack indirectly) they must be referencing shooting attacks.
There's no reason to ignore Out of Sight (because it references shooting attacks) and not ignore Emptied Wound Pool (which references shooting attacks).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It's an absurd abstraction of applying limits of shooting attacks to shooting attacks but not non shooting attacks.

Please rephrase this - I'm not trying to insult you but I don't understand what you're referencing where. Maybe I'm too tired.

No since they stipulate the random allocation method, they do not mandate a shooting attack. They mandate a method of allocating the wounds from a wound pool.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No since they stipulate the random allocation method, they do not mandate a shooting attack. They mandate a method of allocating the wounds from a wound pool.

And when that wound pool is emptied? Since we evidently cannot use anything that references a firing unit (except for Random Allocation) or shooting attack, when is the attack completely resolved?

I'm rather tired too.

The idea that you cannot empty a wound pool because the attack is not a shooting attack is based on the assumption that it is a wound pool of shooting attacks. A fair assumption, I'll grand but not a valid one.

The vector strike is not a shooting attack. Yes or no?
Does the random allocation refer to non shooting attacks in it's text? Yes or no?

again,

BRB pg 8 middle left

a model normally needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, weather with power sword, gun, or psychic power.

los is standard for all attacks unless noted against this normal rule.

easysauce wrote:

again,

BRB pg 8 middle left

a model normally needs line of sight whenever it wishes to attack an enemy, weather with power sword, gun, or psychic power.

I fixed the emphasis. Even if the unit needed los to make the attack, that doesn't mean it is subject to out of sight.

Quick question - according to the FAQ 'That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength and AP3, using Random Allocation. Against vehicles, these hits
are resolved against the target’s side armour.'

Does this mean against vehicles it would NOT count as a shooting attack as Random Allocation doesn't apply, but if against an enemy non vehicle unit it WOULD count as a shooting attack as Random Allocation applies?

This is starting to get a bit "yes it is - no it isn't".

Coming at this from another angle, the line of sight rule is a mechanism for controlling how hits and wounds are assigned from a firing unit to a target unit. The CC rules about initiative step and being engaged in combat are a similar mechanism. These are the "normal" methods of creating hits and wounds, and hence p8 is entirely correct that LOS is "normally" required.

The Vector Strike rule and the supporting errata give precise rules as to how hits and wounds are assigned, so the "normal" methods are not required. The Out Of Sight rule is a specific part of the firing rules, but is not specifically part of the wound allocation rules and Vector Strike is not a shooting attack.

Its a fair point that a model in reserves can't do anything, but the Vector Strike rule is more about where a model was, rather than where it is. As Liturgies indicates there are other mechanisms that can take a flying model out of play before the end of the movement phase, but they are irrelevant because to use the rule the model merely needs to have moved.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'm rather tired too.

The idea that you cannot empty a wound pool because the attack is not a shooting attack is based on the assumption that it is a wound pool of shooting attacks. A fair assumption, I'll grand but not a valid one.

The vector strike is not a shooting attack. Yes or no?
Does the random allocation refer to non shooting attacks in it's text? Yes or no?

Already discussed this in a different thread so will just pop in to say I agree with Lit, the angle which some people look at the shooting phase, and shooting rules is not the same direction I look at it. I believe a bad structuring in the BRB is to blame.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'm rather tired too.

The idea that you cannot empty a wound pool because the attack is not a shooting attack is based on the assumption that it is a wound pool of shooting attacks. A fair assumption, I'll grand but not a valid one.

No, that's not correct at all.
We have a wound pool of non-shooting attacks.
What happens when it's emptied using Random Allocation?

The vector strike is not a shooting attack. Yes or no?

Undetermined. It's not classified anywhere to my knowledge - it certainly counts as firing a weapon.

Does the random allocation refer to non shooting attacks in it's text? Yes or no?

In the rules part? No.

Firstly it is perfectly true, I was very tired. :p

The wound pool is emptied when it is emptied using random allocation. There are wound pools of other attacks and wounds emptied just fine without the "game breaking" need to move onto the next shooting attack.

So the polymorphine is a shooting attack now? The Mawlock's attack is shooting? Everything after "but can also occur" in that paragraph means that it doesn't solely apply to shooting. There is nothing in random allocation that ties that method of allocation solely to shooting and the last two sentences make that clear.

If you are using shooting this line applies " If two or more models are equidistant from a firing unit,randomise only between those equidistant models."

For everything else this line applies. "Otherwise,
randomise between all of the models in the target unit."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact vector strike is just as clear as the other examples of wound pools. It gives you the strength, ap and method of allocation. What more do you need?