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flyers and FMC's can vector strike a unit they pass over,

inlficint d3 hits at a STR and AP value as per the vector strike rule.

wounds must be in LOS to be allocated, except in certain specified exceptions (blast scatter, barrage, for example)

vector strike does not seem to have permission to allocate wounds out of the LOS of the attacking model.

therefor the RAW do not allow a FMC< or flyer to vector strike a unit AFTER it has entered reserves by flying off the table.

do you agree?

Yes, absolutely correct by RAW.

Also note - you're incorrect on scattering blasts. They don't have specific permission to allocate wounds out of LoS but that's a different thread.

The FAQ says the hits are distributed randomly, no need for LoS. You only need to have passed over the unit to do the Vector Strike, you are not required to still be on the table.

So yes, you can Vector Strike from reserves.

distributed randomly is not the same as not needing LOS,

it just means all the models are assumed to be closest,

where do you have permission to resolve those wounds without LOS?

Where does it say that you need LoS?

Vector Striking isn't shooting.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Where does it say that you need LoS?

Vector Striking isn't shooting.

Then how do you populate the wound pool and allocate wounds and take saves without using the shooting rules. Page and Graph reference please.

allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

where are those rules?

oh they dont exist?

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,


or link the third type of atttack that has rules for allocating out of LOS please, otherwise we just assume thats how vector strike works

 Grey Templar wrote:
Where does it say that you need LoS?

Vector Striking isn't shooting.

Random allocation uses the wound pool.
What does the Out of Sight rule on page 16 do?

easysauce wrote:
allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,

So indirect fire cannot possibly wound? There are several instances where LOS is not required to wound.

 Crackgnome wrote:

easysauce wrote:
allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,

So indirect fire cannot possibly wound? There are several instances where LOS is not required to wound.

Please use actual rules that are written instead of inserting bias.

The rules for vector strike specifically state that the flyer simply must have moved over the model, and does not mention anything regarding LOS in any way.

"... At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. Against vehicles these hits are resolved against side armor..."

Nowhere does it state the model must have LOS, nor that it is a shooting attack. The target simply takes hits.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The rules for vector strike specifically state that the flyer simply must have moved over the model, and does not mention anything regarding LOS in any way.

"... At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. Against vehicles these hits are resolved against side armor..."

Nowhere does it state the model must have LOS, nor that it is a shooting attack. The target simply takes hits.

Great. Now - how does a Vector Strike allocate wounds?

Randomly as with any other non-directional hits (i.e. Imotehk)

 Crackgnome wrote:
Randomly as with any other non-directional hits (i.e. Imotehk)

Citation required.

I think the confusion, Crackgnome, comes from the fact that there is precedent so far in this edition to be able to HIT a unit, but be unable to allocate a WOUND to it. (I'm already confused )

Personally, it seems to me that you can indeed Vector Strike from Reserves. I think that claiming otherwise just bucks common sense. Until I see an FAQ saying that I shouldn't be, I will continue to allow flying monstrous creatures that fly off the table to inflict their Vector Strike attacks on my marines.

Still, I encourage people to email the rules questions section at GW for clarification.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The rules for vector strike specifically state that the flyer simply must have moved over the model, and does not mention anything regarding LOS in any way.

"... At the end of the Movement phase, nominate any one unengaged enemy unit the model has moved over that turn. This unit may even be an enemy Flyer. That unit takes D3+1 hits, resolved at the model's unmodified Strength and AP3. Against vehicles these hits are resolved against side armor..."

Nowhere does it state the model must have LOS, nor that it is a shooting attack. The target simply takes hits.

it doesnt say it ignores LOS, why do we assume it ignores LOS simply because the specific attack doesnt say it conforms to normal LOS rules? GW mentions when things are the exception, we dont assume everythings the exception unless GW mentions it follows normal rules.

where in shooting/CC does it say you can allocate without LOS?

specific weapons can, and are named as being allowed to do so without LOS (indirect fire ect)

vector strike is not specifically named


you can have 3 models in a unit, al equally far from the shooter, and 10 models inthat unit out of LOS from the shooter,

you can HIT that unit as many times as you want,

and because the 3 see-able models are equal distance, remove them randomly,

but you will never be able to allocate wounds to the 10 models out of LOS, the extra hits are wasted


lets assume that yes, you can wound without LOS on things such as vector strike, it came from the deep, polymorphine,

why do you also assume the flyer/FMC can allocate wounds after it has left combat airspace, and is in reserves?

where is the rule allowing drakes to cause hits after its left the table, let alone allocate wounds out of LOS, while in reserves?

can barrage weapons fire from reserve as well then?

because barrage weapons do not need LOS either,
and the book actually has written this into their rules, as opposed to drakes where we just assume LOS is not needed

and we cannot interpret the RAW one way for drakes and another for basilisks,

if not needing LOS means the drake can hit + wound from reserves,

then not needing LOS means the basilisk can as well. (only difference is that wounds get allocated from the center of the hole, instead of randomly, and rules do tell youto allocate barrage from the center)

The main issue with that argument being that Basilisks can't roll to shoot from reserves.
The Helldrake was on the table at the beginning of the turn, and can move over units, thus allowing them to hit the units, and their exit point logically being the point from which you allocate.
The Basilisks weren't on the table at all, and thus cannot declare a shooting attack.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The main issue with that argument being that Basilisks can't roll to shoot from reserves.
The Helldrake was on the table at the beginning of the turn, and can move over units, thus allowing them to hit the units, and their exit point logically being the point from which you allocate.
The Basilisks weren't on the table at all, and thus cannot declare a shooting attack.

the helldrake isnt on the table when hits are caused, it has already entered ongoing reserves,

hits from vector strike are done at the end of the movement phase,

drakes do not have a special rule saying vector strike ignores LOS,

allocation is just random,

drakes do not have aspecial rule saying they can cause those hits AFTER being placed in reserves, or resolve wounds while in reserve, even when we make the assumption that vector strike does not need LOS to the models being removed.


lets assume the basilisks are on the board then,

they do NOT need LOS to hit or wound,

so why cant they shoot at things in reserves?

because after all, something off the table, whilst being out of LOS, is still targetable right? (not actually, but if we accept that an attack that does not require LOS from a model in reserves can hit something on the table, then we have to accept that something on the table with a non LOS weapon can hit something in reserves)


very few actions are given express permission to be done by, or done to a unit in reserves,

please link the actual rules giving the drake permission make attacks without LOS, and from reserves

where does it say units in reserve can be damaged by units on the table?

where does it say units on the table can be damaged by units in reserve?

easysauce wrote:
allocate wounds using neither the shooting, nor CC rules then, grey

where are those rules?

oh they dont exist?

vector strike must be either a shooting, or CC attack then,

pick one, both need LOS to allocate wounds,


or link the third type of atttack that has rules for allocating out of LOS please, otherwise we just assume thats how vector strike works

Where does it say that CC wounds need LOS? I can't find the reference in the CC rules. The "out of sight" rule is part of the shooting attack rules, but not part of the specific wound allocation rules. Therefore without a means go measure from the swooping flyer to the target unit you're left with 2 choices. The shooting rules require random allocation, while the CC rules allow the controlling player to remove wounded models that are equidistant from the attacking model.

I think the context of the Vector strike rule makes it pretty clear its a close combat attack (having to move over the unit and the references to savaging and tearing prey to pieces). However, even if you count the whole of the board edge as the location of the reserved flyer, its unlikely that all models in the target squad will be equidistant, so the next most relevant rule is the random allocation rule for shooting wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The comparison to a basilisk firing into reserve is fallacious. There is no mechanism for basilisks to choose reserved units as targets and no means to measure range, which is still required even if LOS isn't. By contrast the mechanism for choosing a target for a vector strike is simply that the striking model moved over the target unit during the movement phase.

except when CC attacks are all equidistance, the controlling playe chooses what models are allocated wounds,

and even when helldrake has LOS, and closest models, random models are removed.

is the helldrake in BTB with the units? is it engaged? is it making a pile in, resolving combat results ect.
does the attack have an I value?
where are challenges issued when resolving the attack?
CC attacks cant hit zooming flyers, yet Vector can.

lets assume no LOS for CC attacks,

can you perform close combat attacks from reserve?

imotekh comes to mind, or calldus assasins plymoprhine.

 pizzaguardian wrote:
imotekh comes to mind, or calldus assasins plymoprhine.

Except neither of those actually say how to allocate the wounds their hits cause.
RAW neither work. And neither does Vector Strike.

Vector Strikes have been FAQ'd to use random wound allocation in the FAQ for the 6th ed rule on the GW page. No mention of LOS needed.

But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

the random allocation basically bypasses the need for LoS(which normally prevents allocation and empties the wound pool)

assuming there is a need for LoS.

Also being base to base, initiative values and challenges and whatnot are all mechanisms for generating hits in the first instance. The vector strike rule has its own mechanism for that.

 Flinty wrote:
But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

This!

Why is everyone ignoring that Vector Strike is resolved *after* the model finishes moving (at the end of the movement phase, no less). So the fact that the model started the turn off the table has no bearing on this argument at all.

 yakface wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

This!

Why is everyone ignoring that Vector Strike is resolved *after* the model finishes moving (at the end of the movement phase, no less). So the fact that the model started the turn off the table has no bearing on this argument at all.

Yak - you're reading this backwards.
Model moves off the table into ongoing reserves and strikes on its way out. It is no longer on the table.

This isn't about striking while moving onto the board.

exactly, we make the assumption that they all get to allocate wounds outside of LOS, and logically that makes sense, why would they all have rules that do not work?

and whereas the callidius' rules specifically permit the hits to happening while the assasin is in reserve, before she is placed

the drakes attacks do not,

attacking from reserve is an action that must be given specific permision, cc or shooting.

asssuming thje drakes/callidius/ect can attack wihtout LOS, is not RAW, but is obviously RAI

attacking from reserves, is definetly not RAW, and it is very different from attacking with no LOS, which is also not RAW (but obviously is RAI)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 yakface wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
But the vector strike isn't attacking from reserves. The attack is resolved at the end of the turn, when the unit is in reserve, but the mechanism for generating the hits is clearly defined as part of the model's move when it was on the board.

This!

Why is everyone ignoring that Vector Strike is resolved *after* the model finishes moving (at the end of the movement phase, no less). So the fact that the model started the turn off the table has no bearing on this argument at all.

Yak - you're reading this backwards.
Model moves off the table into ongoing reserves and strikes on its way out. It is no longer on the table.

This isn't about striking while moving onto the board.

no i do not, and no this isnt about vector striking while moving on to the board, that is VS'ing while the FMC/drake is on the board and not in reserves, there shouldnt be an issue with that (aside from assuming LOS'less strikes get allocated, which is a safe assumption, but not RAW)

what we are talking about here,

is when:
the drake moves over a unit and leaves the table, entering ongoing reserves. it is now in reserves,

the player finished the movement phase, at the end of it is when vector strike is resolved.

but at the end of the movement phase, the drake has already left combat airspace, and is in ongoing reserves.

it then attempts to resolve vector strike from reserves.

what gives it permission to resolve attacks from reserve? CC or shooting.

other special rules attacks, such as plymorphine, give the model express permission to attack from reserves, VS does not.

easysauce wrote:

attacking from reserves, is definetly not RAW, and it is very different from attacking with no LOS, which is also not RAW (but obviously is RAI)

At no time is the model making the vetor strike attacking from reserves. The hits are generated during the model's movement and merely resolved at the end of the movement phase.