Natfka wrote:Tyranids Evolve: Playtesting Still Going On

Tyranids are currently being playtested, which means that the rules and ideas being thrown out will change, be altered, dropped completely, and in most cases not look like they do now. Still we have not seen anything specific, and I would imagine that we will not for a while.

There are no specific playtest rules here, which is fine, because its more important at this stage to see the direction that the codex is headed rather than specific rules. (although specifics are always fun and exciting to see).

Please remember that these are ideas that are being tested currently, and that it is still early as we do not expect tyranids until next year sometime. However this set does answer some questions that we still have, like dedicated transports, FoC changes or not, and some very cool ideas like Evolving your bugs for specific battlefield roles.

anonymous source wrote:Tyranids are still being playtested.

Some royal court type stuff with warrior primes.

Point reduction on the little bugs.

Some interesting FoC rearranges.

Several new bugs (not all will make it).

The ability to tailor make your bugs and "evolve them" into being very specific, or keep them cheap and generalized.

Better ways to help close with the enemy.

Feels very "overwhelming" to play against them.

No new transport options, but a couple new deployment options.

Added 9th March:

Some more specifics on tyranid playtest.

Carnifexes are in the elite and heavy support sections (but have different options)

While broods are the same base cost as the current dex, additional gaunts are dirt cheap. So if you want to horde it up, you can.

Rippers are cheaper.

Ability to build around "free" units coming in from reserve throughout the game (from different sources, but it's the same special rule), but they do not score.

Can go the other route and bugzilla it up and have all (including scoring) monstrous creatures.

The goal is to go mass or massive or anything in between.

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

And on the topic of evolutions - these are just upgrades and options that can make a bug very finite in it's role, but awesome at it. Not mid game changes. Only one special creature can do that.

I was skipping this one.

It sounds fun. Which means it won't happen...

This isn't going to happen. But as someone who really likes the Tyranids (although I don't play them) seeing a return to the "Build-a-Bug Workshop" of codices gone by would be a nice change.

(Assuming it didn't just have one or two minmax-optimal builds and gack for the other options, which, you know, facts not in evidence.)

The smaller bugs become cheaper? That does not sound right, they are some of the most playable right now.

What they need to do is something about 3W T4 models dying to S8! 6th edition is better but 5th edition was filled with game after game of not making it into CC.

They need to play like they are fluff vice. And they should not be chines jigsaw of badly written rules that do not work mixed with thematic units that do not function.

The carnifex is the iconic monster us creature of 40K and nobody is playing with the posterboy. It is like superman eating cryptonite for breakfest everyday of his entire life :-(

If it's only playtesting, that means we have a ways to go.

Unless the new bugs are are already modeled, and they're just tweaking the rules for them.

Very "Overwhelming" sounds nice. I'd like to field more swarms, but the help we need is in the midsize bugs. The T4 W3 just doesn't cut it.

Hopefully the Tervigon doesn't get overnerfed....

All of this will probably just end up as a "Brood Storm" table you roll each assault phase.

A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

orkybenji wrote:
or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Nydus Worm?
We already have something similar with the Trygon, but the rules for the subterranean tunnel are so poorly implemented that the reserves themselves may idiotically appear before the Trygon itself and be forced to move on from the table edge. Also, the rules are nonsensical enough that the Raveners, the mini-Trygons, can't use the tunnel.

Anyways, the rules exist. They're just awfully implemented like half of the Tyranid Codex.

Ill take whatever they get. Im trying to stop buying Marine stuff and finish my Nids and get em scuttling.

They did the whole evolution thing a couple of editions ago. It was fun, but in the end it made it super difficult for opponents to know what was going on and who had what evolution. Could be cool if they did a simplified version of that though.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
They did the whole evolution thing a couple of editions ago. It was fun, but in the end it made it super difficult for opponents to know what was going on and who had what evolution. Could be cool if they did a simplified version of that though.

Nah. It'll be several thousand charts you roll randomly cinematically on before the game starts.

orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

Personally I'd like an expanded array of biomorphs compared to the current selection, just none of the straight stat upgrades of 3rd and 4th edition(Which is where the min-maxing came in.)

Also necessary:

Offensive grenades or something with a similar effect.

Either eternal warrior or a synapse save versus instant death(Basically Eternal Warrior 3+ or something).

And possibly rules to buy more unique creatures like venomthropes and pyrovores as a single FOC, and then spread them out through your army like independent characters. Venomthropes have these nice defensive buffs to tyranids around them, but there's not enough benefit to buying them when the bubble winds up all in one spot. Three separate venoms giving separate swarms a cover save is more beneficial than a single group moving up the field.

whoadirty wrote:

orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

They already have that too:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-HARRIDAN.html
Forge world, though. Also really awkward rules.

Rumours of vague and easily guessed things. :(

For example, given Chaos Daemons it wouldn't surprise me if nids saw some price drops on the little fellas (and there are several overpriced TMCs)

Good to know they have gotten to playtesting them, though.

I can see them using the Burning blood rule from the Chaos Daemons transferred onto the genestealers... It would ake them the Xenomorphs GW wanted them to be in the first place

'All tyranids may assault on the same turn they arrive, from deepstriking, popping up from cover, coming onto the table from reserve or any other way.'


Problem solved.

 Niiai wrote:
The smaller bugs become cheaper? That does not sound right, they are some of the most playable right now.

What they need to do is something about 3W T4 models dying to S8! 6th edition is better but 5th edition was filled with game after game of not making it into CC.

They need to play like they are fluff vice. And they should not be chines jigsaw of badly written rules that do not work mixed with thematic units that do not function.

The carnifex is the iconic monster us creature of 40K and nobody is playing with the posterboy. It is like superman eating cryptonite for breakfest everyday of his entire life :-(

if they had a problem with 3 wound T4 models getting instant killed by S8 weapons they wouldn't have given Bloodcrushers the same weakness. I wouldn't expect this to change for Warriors.

whoadirty wrote:

orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

Are you trying to say that Starcraft isn't real-life? You're a crazy heretic. The only thing more real than Starcraft is The Lost Vikings.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:'All tyranids may assault on the same turn they arrive, from deepstriking, popping up from cover, coming onto the table from reserve or any other way.'


Problem solved.

By problem solved, I assume you mean the problem of determining who to give the prizes to after tournies? Yeah, problem solved on that one - they'd all go to nids.

More playtest rumours by an anonymous source to Natfka:

Some more specifics on tyranid playtest.

Carnifexes are in the elite and heavy support sections (but have different options)

While broods are the same base cost as the current dex, additional gaunts are dirt cheap. So if you want to horde it up, you can.

Rippers are cheaper.

Ability to build around "free" units coming in from reserve throughout the game (from different sources, but it's the same special rule), but they do not score.

Can go the other route and bugzilla it up and have all (including scoring) monstrous creatures.

The goal is to go mass or massive or anything in between.

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

And on the topic of evolutions - these are just upgrades and options that can make a bug very finite in it's role, but awesome at it. Not mid game changes. Only one special creature can do that.

I don't think they should make MC Troops again, They have Warriors for Bugzilla lists. If they do it most probably means you will have zilla spams again and that doesn't suit the "Everything is desirable" theme that they want to go with

 happygolucky wrote:
I don't think they should make MC Troops again, They have Warriors for Bugzilla lists. If they do it most probably means you will have zilla spams again and that doesn't suit the "Everything is desirable" theme that they want to go with

Bah they should put carnifexes in every slot!

 kenshin620 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
I don't think they should make MC Troops again, They have Warriors for Bugzilla lists. If they do it most probably means you will have zilla spams again and that doesn't suit the "Everything is desirable" theme that they want to go with

Bah they should put carnifexes in every slot!

The Logic is good

I think if they want More Nidzilla lists BUT not give them troop MC's then they could make MC squadrons just like Carnifex's... Squadron of Tervigon's anyone?

 Kroothawk wrote:
More playtest rumours by an anonymous source to Natfka:

Can go the other route and bugzilla it up and have all (including scoring) monstrous creatures.

Don't tease.

Sounds like too much fun to be GW. Dang! I really want Nidzilla, and actually it sounds a lot like 4th edition with all the customizing. Kroothawk, please, please don't tease me like this.

 Niiai wrote:


What they need to do is something about 3W T4 models dying to S8! 6th edition is better but 5th edition was filled with game after game of not making it into CC.

No, instant death exists for a reason. Hell if flipping Nurgles herald Typhus can be one shotted by a rail gun (no eternal warrior, only T5) then nid warriors can die to anti tank missiles.

 Spyral wrote:
nid warriors can die to anti tank missiles.

And should be about half the cost they are now. Glad we agree!

Well, hopefully they really will end up with a viable horde list - can't get much more 'cinematic' than Starship Troopers

And a viable ambush/deepstrike list. Go on, GW, just think of all the new Lictor and Ymagryl genestealer and pod models you could sell us!

And a viable MC list.

Even 2 out of 3 would be nice...

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

*collapses on the floor laughing*

*continues laughing for over 5 minutes*

*keeps laughing*

*wheezing noises as he attempts to catch his breath*

*accidentally re-reads the quote*

*falls over again laughing*

*another 5 minutes pass*


I'm *gasp* sorry. *deep breath* But that *deep breath* will never *deep breath* happen.

*collapses from lack of oxygen*

HBMC, you haven't seen the whole phrase. When they mean"every unit", they mean "every unit with a new model".

whoadirty wrote:

orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

Gah!! Purge it with fire!!

From Faeit 212:

It seems that playtest rules are coming out of the woodwork, and these ones are really starting to give us some idea to what a new Tyranid codex might look like. Its just too bad that we are not closer to the codex release.


Please remember that these are playtest rumors, and that while playtesting rules give us some insight as to the direction of the codex, most get altered, changed, or dropped in the final product.

via an anonymous source (anonymous for obvious reasons)
FoC manipulation and "new" deployment options are based on the various stages and methods of a Tyranid invasion. The design goal is to be able to represent in a viable manner things like stealthy vanguard forces, huge waves of little gribblies, the sheer brute force of monstrous creatures in the final stages of invasions, surprise forces coming from underground and the sky, and so on. Pretty exciting to know that someone in charge acknowledges that Tyranids are multi-faceted.

Further details that the others did not mention:
- A lot of flexibility in the form of army composition. As opposed to the very mutable stats of units and weapons of the old codex, which caused a lot of headaches for opponents.
- Hive Tyrants are the main source of FOC manipulation. The idea is that they can specialize the scoring elements of the army.... but you have to pay for it.
- Reserve manipulation is a very strong theme in the codex. These options are more numerous and reliable than in the current codex. And that's because...
- Mycetic Spores have expanded rules for ease of use. This includes MC broods.
- Trygon tunnels are also greatly expanded. Raveners have additional synergy with the tunnels. Even Monstrous Creatures can use them but with a penalty.
- More outflanking options. Various ideas are being thrown around on the topic of protecting Genestealers and especially Lictors from being shot to pieces when they appear.

And the most important rule that is being tested...
Synapse offering protection from Instant Death in a brand new way. Right now this is being tested only on creatures that have the Synapse rule (not within the aura): Wounds that trigger ID can instead be rolled to either cause 1 Wound, 2 Wounds, or ID. The designers have mentioned that multi wound models are problematic in the ruleset and doubly for for Tyranids who have many such units, yet because of the abundance of S8 and above weapons they cannot rely on them.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/03/tyranid-foc-manipulation-hive-tyrants.html#more

While it's too early for me to get too excited about a new codex for the Tyranids being in the works, I do like that I'm hearing rumors even if they turn out to be bunk.

Some of these sound very much like wish listing, but are at least something to think about till the new book does arrive.

As it stands, my group is still using 5th edition since there are only 3 of us and none of our Codices have been updated yet.

Until then, I'm just going to keep adding to my swarm, maybe even getting a few things like a Pyrovore or two just in case. Nice models, even if they're not worth much in game at the moment...

So all of a sudden 4-5 different sources are mailing Faeit212 with information about a book that's still at least a year off, while that same Faeit212 didn't have a clue about daemons 5 days before they came out?

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

Not a fething chance, unless they are referring to friendly/"fluffy" games and not tournaments/meta in which case I would actually buy it. GW seems to be allergic to the competitive environment of their game, so maybe.

 Brock79 wrote:

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

Not a fething chance, unless they are referring to friendly/"fluffy" games and not tournaments/meta in which case I would actually buy it. GW seems to be allergic to the competitive environment of their game, so maybe.

I don't know, Tyranids were the Flagship Xeno codex until we got the Cruddace treatment. I could see them trying to return to that standard.

 Sasori wrote:

 Brock79 wrote:

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

Not a fething chance, unless they are referring to friendly/"fluffy" games and not tournaments/meta in which case I would actually buy it. GW seems to be allergic to the competitive environment of their game, so maybe.

I don't know, Tyranids were the Flagship Xeno codex until we got the Cruddace treatment. I could see them trying to return to that standard.

Sasori may have a point... Tyranids went from being a top seller to... not. All in the span of a single release. Regardless of their "beer and pretzel" idea for the game, even GW seems to realize this isn't flying with the Nids.

 Marrak wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


I don't know, Tyranids were the Flagship Xeno codex until we got the Cruddace treatment. I could see them trying to return to that standard.

Sasori may have a point... Tyranids went from being a top seller to... not. All in the span of a single release. Regardless of their "beer and pretzel" idea for the game, even GW seems to realize this isn't flying with the Nids.

To be fair, GW did shoot themselves in the foot with the model releases. By far the most competitive new unit in the codex didn't get a model until 2 years later, by which point everyone had already either converted their own or shopped somewhere like Chapterhouse. It also took a bit longer than that for 6e to make other units more viable (Flyrants).

I can believe this "every unit viable" statement because it seems to be something they've followed with the new Daemons book. It'll be nice to see if new army releases keep this kind of internal balance that gives a player plenty of choices, rather than just using a handful of 'optimal' units.

Mycetic Spores have expanded rules for ease of use. This includes MC broods.

Mycetic Spores will become so good that GW is contemplating giving them a model 4-5 years after introduction

Very interesting that we have rumors coming out about 'nids, who are so far out, compared to Tau or Eldar, who are supposedly around the corner.

Not... entirely convinced by these rumors. What's the phrase... "too good to be true"? Though, some of them reek of 4e nostalgia wishlisting as well.

Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

They can make you I1 and inflict instant death with no armor saves in assault. They have a decent armor save and 3 wounds to boot ...

I can defiantly see some kind of EW save from Synapse making its way in. I wouldnt say a 3+ ... maybe a 5+ with an upgrade to 4+ like necrons.

Your small bugs are pretty damn cheap ... chances are they will take away the evolution costs and have a synapse creature grant it in a bubble.
(IE a Venom Thorpe granting the Poison attacks)

They are big with Sgt/Lord type units joining squads or being around squads improving them in certain ways. They are also big on the Random. Your hive tyrant has killed a IC in combat they absorbe some of their genetic material ... roll on a chart to determine what you gain.

I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

I also think shadows in the warp should be changed to 6" base, and then +6" per extra creature with the special rule you have on the table, works well with the fluff of it.

Eldercaveman wrote:
I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

Oh good. Let's add more pointless dice-rolling to the game.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

Oh good. Let's add more pointless dice-rolling to the game.

That is a decent point. d3 wounds is 2 wounds on average. They should just make it a static 2 wounds when in Synapse and everything will pretty much be fine. Warriors/Raveners will not be insta-gibbed yet S8+ weaponry will still be very effective against them.

This whole anti-ID concept seems awfully similar to the superior 6thEd leaked rules that never came to be. Smells of wishlisting, in a way.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

Oh good. Let's add more pointless dice-rolling to the game.

Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

I'll admit, it was a terrible and nonconstructive response, however, it was just as constructive as your complete shut down of an idea I put out there. Maybe you wouldn't have had such a terrible response, if your original response would have been a little more like your point 1.

 Niiai wrote:
The smaller bugs become cheaper? That does not sound right, they are some of the most playable right now.

They're really not. The only small bugs that are playable are Termagants, and that's only because the babyfactory makes them for free.

Making Termagants and Hormagaunts cheaper base means more people will take them without the babyfactory - this would be a good thing.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

I'll admit, it was a terrible and nonconstructive response, however, it was just as constructive as your complete shut down of an idea I put out there. Maybe you wouldn't have had such a terrible response, if your original response would have been a little more like your point 1.

I thought he had a point, because he does.

We roll dice to determine uncertain outcomes and make things exciting. After rolling to hit, wound, save, and feelnopain, rolling an additonal die is just clunky.

d3s are clunky anyways.

Tyrs13 wrote:
Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

Not very scary?

Their 3 wounds and 4+ saves don't mean a thing when a powerfist wipes out 3 in a turn due to them only being T4. Or when a smart player shoots them with S8 weapons long before they reach combat.

 Absolutionis wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

I'll admit, it was a terrible and nonconstructive response, however, it was just as constructive as your complete shut down of an idea I put out there. Maybe you wouldn't have had such a terrible response, if your original response would have been a little more like your point 1.

I thought he had a point, because he does.

We roll dice to determine uncertain outcomes and make things exciting. After rolling to hit, wound, save, and feelnopain, rolling an additonal die is just clunky.

d3s are clunky anyways.

He does have a point, now that he has made one, rather than just saying, o yay lets add more dice. I can see his point now he has actually fleshed one out, I never said my idea was a highly thought out and extensively play tested idea, just an idea off the bat. What about the Synapse suggestion? Any thoughts on that?

Edit.. We should probably drop this all together as it is off topic now, just realised this is still in the rumours section, and we are quickly steering it towards Proposed rules.

Wow, the bit about Tyranid invasion stages is something the studio supposedly kicked around a LONG time ago. My memory is failing me a little here, but it must have been for the 3rd edition codex. I remember hearing designers talk about it (those were the days when they talked about such things and shared WIP codexes and such at events). IIRC, the idea was for three army lists -- vanguard/early invasion/late invasion, or something like that -- which would dictate the kind of organisms you'd have at your disposal.

If this rumor is true and not some kind of 12-year-old recycle (which would have to be some kind of record), the execution of that concept is almost certainly much different and more limited now, as suggested by the bit about Tyrants and org chart maneuvering.

**Tyranid grognard out**

 -Loki- wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

Not very scary?

Their 3 wounds and 4+ saves don't mean a thing when a powerfist wipes out 3 in a turn due to them only being T4. Or when a smart player shoots them with S8 weapons long before they reach combat.

What good is a power fist when its already dead? Bone Sword + Lash whip combo will wipe out most MEQ squads before they can even attack.
The only think that will matter are invul saves ... so dont charge the unit of TH/SS Termies.

Sure you have to worry about high Str Shooting ... join the club. There is very little Str 8 shots wont cure.
Take a venomthrope to provide cover for the unit as it advances or saturate your enemy with high T creatures.

Or use some Ymgarl to take out the dangerous Str 8 weapons. Or your choice of deepstriking units.

I also found the hive guard to be effective at taking out targets with their 24" ignore cover str 8 assault 2 weapons.

Tyrs13 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Tyrs13 wrote:
Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

Not very scary?

Their 3 wounds and 4+ saves don't mean a thing when a powerfist wipes out 3 in a turn due to them only being T4. Or when a smart player shoots them with S8 weapons long before they reach combat.

What good is a power fist when its already dead? Bone Sword + Lash whip combo will wipe out most MEQ squads before they can even attack.
The only think that will matter are invul saves ... so dont charge the unit of TH/SS Termies.

Yes, a 45 point model will dominate a model that costs less than it. News flash.
And why are you striking at initiative? There's this thing called "cover" that my opponents typically hide in when I'm running CC warriors. It makes you swing at the same time as a Power Fist.

Sure you have to worry about high Str Shooting ... join the club. There is very little Str 8 shots wont cure.

Most of it has armor that isn't ignored by an Autocannon.

Take a venomthrope to provide cover for the unit as it advances or saturate your enemy with high T creatures.

Yeah, spend one of our crowded Elite slots to babysit a unit until the Thrope gets IDed by a stray missile.

Or use some Ymgarl to take out the dangerous Str 8 weapons. Or your choice of deepstriking units.

Only the Ymgarls can assault the turn they come in - everyone else has to sit there and look pretty for a turn.

I also found the hive guard to be effective at taking out targets with their 24" ignore cover str 8 assault 2 weapons.

Sure, they're effective. When they get in range.

No, it's not all doom and gloom for Nids right now. But trying to paint a rosy picture where Warriors are awesome just doesn't work.

"Rumours from play testing" is netspeak for "here's some stuff I made up all by myself".

It's been many years since anything claimed to be from a play tester has shown any evidence of actually being from one.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts venomthropes gain stealth and shrouded, and the crappy bubble of 5++ cover becomes a bubble of stealth or shrouding.

What would make bug players happy is warrior options between affordable or expensive & deadly. All warriors really need to get past powerfists and s8 shooting is an option where they are +1T for the purpose of ID threshold. Beats the snot out of making them EW because IMO they should always go kersplat when hit by s10.

What else does my magic 8 ball say purely on my own conjecture...

Pyrovores=better because let's be honest it's going to be really tough for gw to make them worse.

Doom=worse same logic as the pyrovore.

Avian wrote:
"Rumours from play testing" is netspeak for "here's some stuff I made up all by myself".
It's been many years since anything claimed to be from a play tester has shown any evidence of actually being from one.

Define evidence in this context. Like posting a pic of your driver licence next to the NDA contract?
Obviously, you and me have different views on how to discuss rumours, esp. early rumours.
Discussing play testing rumours is obviously only for fun, as we all know that these are not the final version even with best sources.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).

I think the cleanest way to do it is by simply giving Synapse creatures an invulnerable save that can only be used against attacks that inflict ID. It's not really any additional rolling and can be explained from a fluff perspective as the power of the Hive Mind strengthening the creature at a critical moment.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Avian wrote:
"Rumours from play testing" is netspeak for "here's some stuff I made up all by myself".
It's been many years since anything claimed to be from a play tester has shown any evidence of actually being from one.

Define evidence in this context. Like posting a pic of your driver licence next to the NDA contract?
Obviously, you and me have different views on how to discuss rumours, esp. early rumours.
Discussing play testing rumours is obviously only for fun, as we all know that these are not the final version even with best sources.

To be fair, he has a point. We're suddenly hearing all sorts of things about Nids that are at least a year away and yet people are still speculating as to if the new Tau stuff will be shown next week, next month or in June.

We should all take turns emailing Faeit with our own Nid wishlists and see what gets through.

Hopefully the Studio's fondness for 2nd Edition will mean the return of T5 Warriors (drop them down to two Wounds)

It is a simple fix for all mid-sized Nid creatures that doesn't make them immune to Wraithcannon, Railguns, etc that should just kill them. Neither does it need any extra dice.

I *think* that one reason for the old EW was to give HTs and Fexes some protection against Force Weapons, et al that they lacked an INV save against.

AGain, that is another design problem - GW heavily restrict the amount of INV saves the Nids get but don't give them slightly higher Toughness to offset this in other areas.

I hope they are looking at the way nids fight. I've always played a bitey list with shooting support but over the course of 5th and even moreso in 6th I find myself playing Buguard.

Interesting ideas. Any kind of defence for synapse against ID can only be a good thing, not fussy how this happens.

The ability to spawn termagants or hormogaunts would cover specialisation quite easily. This would make hormogaunts playable again almost overnight.

Rippers are cheaper? So ...

Not sure how you make pyrovore playable, but worried about how they ruin Doom.

Would love to be able to make a carnifex T7.

Real flyers - maybe even gargoyles - would be good.

 ruminator wrote:
Not sure how you make pyrovore playable

Torrent, I4, grenades. Work complete.

He wouldn't be amazing, but he'd be worth taking imo.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ruminator wrote:
Not sure how you make pyrovore playable

Torrent, I4, grenades. Work complete.

He wouldn't be amazing, but he'd be worth taking imo.

and +1A

Just being able to assign Warriors, Shrieks, Venomthropes, Raveners etc. to units of Gaunts, Gargoyles and Hormagaunts ala Necron Lords/Crypteks would make a massive improvement IMO. Max 3 per unit or something and they can take advantage of 6th edition shooting rules to avoid S8 weapons while still being vulnerable to precision shots.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ruminator wrote:
Not sure how you make pyrovore playable

Torrent, I4, grenades. Work complete.

He wouldn't be amazing, but he'd be worth taking imo.

Torrent and reduced cost.

Never underestimate reduced cost.

How much would you pay per pyrovore using the current rules + torrent?

 schadenfreude wrote:


Torrent and reduced cost.

Never underestimate reduced cost.

How much would you pay per pyrovore using the current rules + torrent?

I think I'd still be taking Hive Guard or Zoanthropes in most situations if they remain mostly unchanged. Nids aren't exactly desperate for short-range anti-infantry that they need to use precious Elite slots for Pyrovores.

That's the main reason I'd like to see some of the mid-sized creatures like Venomthropes, Pyrovores or even Zoanthropes be turned into Techmarine-style IC's. You get to take 1-2 per Troops choice, it doesn't use a force org slot and can be attached to other squads to buff them and create interesting combinations.

Edit: an IC Pyrovore with torrent AND assault grenades would be awesome for making melee Warrior squads more viable.

 Souleater wrote:
Hopefully the Studio's fondness for 2nd Edition will mean the return of T5 Warriors (drop them down to two Wounds)

It is a simple fix for all mid-sized Nid creatures that doesn't make them immune to Wraithcannon, Railguns, etc that should just kill them. Neither does it need any extra dice.

I *think* that one reason for the old EW was to give HTs and Fexes some protection against Force Weapons, et al that they lacked an INV save against.

AGain, that is another design problem - GW heavily restrict the amount of INV saves the Nids get but don't give them slightly higher Toughness to offset this in other areas.

I hope they are looking at the way nids fight. I've always played a bitey list with shooting support but over the course of 5th and even moreso in 6th I find myself playing Buguard.

Well, the new daemons mostly lost toughness, reduced save to 5+ across the board, no EW and gained some wounds and/or points reductions. Maybe a taste of things to come for Nids?

I'm not sure how to translate that to Nids, since they already can play at the horde army thing.

 Shandara wrote:


Well, the new daemons mostly lost toughness, reduced save to 5+ across the board, no EW and gained some wounds and/or points reductions. Maybe a taste of things to come for Nids?

I'm not sure how to translate that to Nids, since they already can play at the horde army thing.

They did that to sell more plastic daemons so daemons could be cheaper points-wise. The larger daemons now get randomised gifts that can potentially make the more survivable.

My money says the larger Nids will get to roll for 'evolutions' to make them more random and less reliable more cinematic.

whoadirty wrote:

orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

I could see Tervigons becoming transports.

Fits GWs method of nerf batting great units hard.

A toughness increase would go a long way to putting our mid-range bugs back on the field. I know I'm not alone in wanting to field a "Warrior-level" army. Even at their current point value you'd see more of them that way

As it stands, every warrior, Ravener, lictor, etc... is absolutely overshadowed by another unit in the same class. Raveners clearly are inferior to Gargoyles point for point, and can't even kill things half as well. Warriors can be a dice and slice melee deathstar... but are no harder to wound than your average space marine without the armor to back it up, and in fact are more vulnerable due to their own size and small unit status.

Lictors don't mesh well with the synergy of the deepstrike rules, and are woefully obliterated when something so much as looks at them.

The only mid-range bugs that perform well are Zoanthropes and Hive guard. Hive guard being a perfect example of being tough yet not needing Space Marine lvl armor, and Zoanthropes having an invul save and excellent shooting options for a reasonable cost, but are trapped being stuck in an overcrowded section. I can't remember the last time I saw someone field a Venomthrope.

My solution? Keep warriors as a unit... but put them into multiple roles ala Dawn of War: you have your heavy support warriors, your fighty warriors, and your shooty warriors. This is alongside the T increase.

Make Venomthropes an option for broods to take. Otherwise they're fine, even at their toughness.

Lictors and Raveners need to be absolute beasts in combat and actually perform the job that they're clearly intended for. The studio also has to stop relying on Rending as the Tyranid answer for dealing with tough armor saves... this across multiple selections in the codex. Just let lictors have unnatural strength... they won't be popping vehicles, but they can be a credible threat. Also, allow them to be placed in some fashion (this goes for Ymgarls too) that doesn't require note passing and the assumption your opponent isn't screwing with you but also allows them to be effective turn 1 onward. Raveners should be whirlwinds of death that should be able to follow momma snake or be a much greater threat when they deepstrike, rather than the bolter bait they currently are. Frankly, some kind of synergy between our MCs and our other bugs could also fix these ones... the Tervigon was a tremendous step in the right direction.

If GW insists on utilizing the Fluff as validation for a unit's abilities, then at least consider the fluff correctly for the units in question.

Rippers need to stop being made worse each edition. This last version was a joke that literally made them unplayable. Again, attaching them as an option for units would go great for the synergistic approach most people envision for a Tyranid horde. You could even keep them as their own unit... make those the ones with spinefists.

Oh, and just let the thorax swarm choose the ammo each round? You'd be amazed how many people would consider this then.

As it stands, the Tyranid codex is missing a great deal of tools other armies take for granted... and not just SM.

 Shandara wrote:


Well, the new daemons mostly lost toughness, reduced save to 5+ across the board, no EW and gained some wounds and/or points reductions. Maybe a taste of things to come for Nids?

I'd lay money it is going to be exactly that. Sadly, I feel more and more as if my Nids exist merely to be a punchbag for SM in assault.

Sit the studio down and make them play a few games of Space Hulk before they fiddle with Nids again.

I really hope Nids don't turn into a random dice roll for upgrade like CSM & Daemons.

That is not how forced evolution works. Since Nids evolve themselves as a direct result to the enemy that they are fighting, any kind of d6 roll so see if they have Toxin Sacks or Adrenal Glands is about as ‘fluffy and cinematic’ as SMs rolling a d6 to see what weapons the bring to the fight. Terminator Bob really wished he rolled a 6 on the dice so he could use a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for the fight, but sadly, he rolled a 1 and now has to fight Tyranid Warriors with a Chain Sword. He didn't even know that that was an option for Terminators. Better luck next time Terminator Bob and remember, YAY cinematic!...

Also, Nids aren't Chaos Gods so there is no fluff justification for randomness like the weak one they used for all Chaos forces.



Something that would be ‘fluffy and cinematic’ would be letting Nid players chose upgrades after they have seen their opponent’s army or, at least, who they are fighting. That would be a great representation of how Nids fight using attrition and genetic modification to make the bugs more effective as the fight goes on.

Some kind of chart where you pay X or 2X and you can select an upgrade or two from a list after both sides placed their armies on the board. Or maybe make each upgrade give the opponent a VP.

Or just allow the mid player to buy Preferred Enemy.

I have this thing about using existing, simple solutions where possible.

Easy fix for lictors is to give them stealth all the time, and give them shrouding if they did not move, charge, or fight in cc the previous turn. On the turn they arrive a natural 2+ cover should help keep them alive.

Warriors and raveners have not been popular, so they have a good chance of being fixed.

When is the new codex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah. It'll be several thousand charts you roll randomly cinematically on before the game starts.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Easy fix for lictors is to give them stealth all the time, and give them shrouding if they did not move, charge, or fight in cc the previous turn. On the turn they arrive a natural 2+ cover should help keep them alive.

Warriors and raveners have not been popular, so they have a good chance of being fixed.

I'd prefer Lictors to be a unit upgrade, with hidden deployment ala assassins in WFB.
Kill the unit with shooting and the Lictor is never placed, but get into assault and the lictor displaces a nid model.
(Naturally, you have to show you have physically written down what units have lictors at deployment else you can't place them)

But I'd be a big fan of the Tyranids going in the direction of lots of multi-model-type, multi-wound units (Pyrovores in Gaunt units to use wall of death to defend objectives, Venomthropes in Hormagaunt units providing cover as they charge etc. suddenly precision shots become important).

 ruminator wrote:


Not sure how you make pyrovore playable, but worried about how they ruin Doom.

Would love to be able to make a carnifex T7.

Not actual rumors:

Pyrovore- give Torrent USR and option for flamespurt to fire as 18" S8 AP1 melta
Carnifex and Hive Tyrant ought to be able to buy either Armored shell (2+ save) or Extended Carapace (+1T) for 40 points per model. Carnifex would be brought down to 140 points base.
Warriors ought to be able to choose Wings for 10 points per model (move to FA), Bonded exoskeleton (3+ save) for 15 points per model or Extended carapace (+1T) for 20 points per model. Remove the Shrike entry.

I think 1 entry per FOS is fine. It reduces a LOT of confustion that the last codex had. It just needs to be more clear that Warriors in HQ, Troops, & FA are still Warriors and gain all Warrior specific buffs. Same goes for Rippers and Stealers.

I do like the Lictor idea of being a hidden model in the unit.

Wishlist for Pyrovore - Template, Acid Gel : reduce hull points by 1 at the end of each turn, for d3 turns. Stackable.

OJchimpson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah. It'll be several thousand charts you roll randomly cinematically on before the game starts.

Nah, it's just one chart, but you have to roll on another chart to figure out how cinematic the roll on the first chart will be.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Pyrovore- give Torrent USR and option for flamespurt to fire as 18" S8 AP1 melta

I'd swap its profile with the Hive Guards as well. Hive Guard don't need to be super tough, since they're generally going to be behind LoS blocking cover. Pyrovores are going to be in the enemies face, so they shouldn't be on fragile frames. It feels like Cruddace accidentally copy/pasted the profiles around. He's fairly fond of that technique, so it's an easy mistake for him to make.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Carnifex and Hive Tyrant ought to be able to buy either Armored shell (2+ save) or Extended Carapace (+1T) for 40 points per model. Carnifex would be brought down to 140 points base.

This would be fantastic. I'd also add that some of the Carnifexes weapon options need some points adjustments. I'd bring Devourers down to 10 each and Deathspitters to 5 each. Also both types of Venom Cannons need to lose that terrible old -1 on the damage table rule. It was fine back when Tyranids weren't meant to have reliable ranged anti tank - they've got plenty now. All this does is make the VC and HVC options no one likes.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Warriors ought to be able to choose Wings for 10 points per model (move to FA), Bonded exoskeleton (3+ save) for 15 points per model or Extended carapace (+1T) for 20 points per model. Remove the Shrike entry.

I'm fine with Shrikes being their own entry, though they really deserve that 4+ save back. Just make them 10 points more than a Warrior, the same price, without the armour options, and all the same weapon options. Saves opponent confusion with FoC slot swapping.

 -Loki- wrote:

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Pyrovore- give Torrent USR and option for flamespurt to fire as 18" S8 AP1 melta

I'd swap its profile with the Hive Guards as well. Hive Guard don't need to be super tough, since they're generally going to be behind LoS blocking cover. Pyrovores are going to be in the enemies face, so they shouldn't be on fragile frames. It feels like Cruddace accidentally copy/pasted the profiles around. He's fairly fond of that technique, so it's an easy mistake for him to make.

I actually rather like the Hive Guard being T6. It ties them as a Tyrant Guard variant. There are T3 "gaunts", T4 "warriors", and T6 "guard" each with their own unique body types. Most of the non-MC Tyranids are variants on this body type. Having a new classification of "Vores" being T5 would fit extremely well; the Biovore and Pyrovore look like they should be much tougher than an Ork anyways.

Plus, the differentiation between the guarding TyrantGuard and the shooty HiveGuard is their armor save as is reflected in the models.

Regardless, everyone pretty much passes over Pyrovores being exceptionally underpowered in a codex already bloated with desirable units in Elites.

i dont think the warrior size bugs will ever get EW. there is no reason for them to have it - and giving it to them in any fashion would make them broke. - and everyone woud take them, instead of the cheaper smaller bugs.

instead, an easy soultion i think, would be combined squads, and allow the smaller ones to LOS for the warriors.

allow warriors to "combine" or attach to another unit of gaunts, of any type much like imperial gaurd infantry platoons can combine. this would allow you to:
- fit the theme of a more "horde / swarm"
- bring a nice LD boost and synapse to the smaller gaunts, along with some heavy/special weapons
- give you some protection from heavier fire.

shrikes can do the same with gargoyles. also an over all reduction in points would seem to fit... but nothing too spectacular. i would think reducing them by 5-10ptd each and keeping the weapons to max +15pts would be ideal. the problem one runs into however, is with a toughness 4 3 wound model.. how much protection and point reducing is too much?

if space marines had a t4 3 wound marine with a plasma gun... for 40pts would that not be broken? what about a squad of them? got to figure some form of balance with other armies has to play in here.

Several new bugs (not all will make it).

To me, this is a major red flag for dodgy rumours. From my understanding of the GW design process, the models come first and the rules come later. There is (as far as I'm aware) no chance whatsoever that a unit will be removed from the codex because of playtesting. Rules will be revised, background may be re-written but so far as I'm aware, the units which are going to appear in the codex are decided before the author even starts writing it let alone before playtesting.

Even units which don't get models released for them seem to have their presence dictated by the potential for having a model release in the future... or a screw-up from the designers (apparently that's what happened with the Vendetta: the design team said that the Valkyrie would be a dual-kit, they found that they couldn't fit all the necessary parts on the sprue, the codex team didn't get informed).

 DarthSpader wrote:

if space marines had a t4 3 wound marine with a plasma gun... for 40pts would that not be broken? what about a squad of them? got to figure some form of balance with other armies has to play in here.

That would be relevant if any weapon Tyranids had was that effective. Or if their armor save was a 3+ like a marine.

T4 W3 4+ save with an assault 3 Str5 AP 5 18" gun for 35 points is too expensive - flat out.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Carnifex and Hive Tyrant ought to be able to buy either Armored shell (2+ save) or Extended Carapace (+1T) for 40 points per model. Carnifex would be brought down to 140 points base.

I like the idea of Carnifexes being made T7 or even T8 basic. Nids already have lots of T6 MC's and this would help differentiate the Fex and give it a role as a real damage sink as it often has to wander across the board slowly. Then give it the option of a 2+ armour upgrade. Then they'd be less prone to being nuked by a handful of krak missiles in one turn.

-Loki- wrote:Also both types of Venom Cannons need to lose that terrible old -1 on the damage table rule. It was fine back when Tyranids weren't meant to have reliable ranged anti tank - they've got plenty now. All this does is make the VC and HVC options no one likes.

Maybe the Venom Cannon could be repurposed slightly:

Venom Cannon = 36" | Strength 6 | Assault 3 | AP4 | Ignores Cover
Heavy Venom Cannon = 36" | Strength 7 | Assault 4 | AP3 | Ignores Cover

By replacing the blast with multiple shots and letting it ignore cover, it allows Tyranids to counter entrenched forces as they advance. It's a serious threat to vehicles hiding behind buildings or aegis lines, and negates Jink on skimmers/flyers. Heavier ranged anti-tank could be provided by Tyrannofexes.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:

T4 W3 4+ save with an assault 3 Str5 AP 5 18" gun for 35 points is too expensive - flat out.

Plus Warriors are often needed as a key synapse unit to keep your army together. If they're not made any tougher, they should be cheaper to afford more of them.