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Interesting ideas. Any kind of defence for synapse against ID can only be a good thing, not fussy how this happens.

The ability to spawn termagants or hormogaunts would cover specialisation quite easily. This would make hormogaunts playable again almost overnight.

Rippers are cheaper? So ...

Not sure how you make pyrovore playable, but worried about how they ruin Doom.

Would love to be able to make a carnifex T7.

Real flyers - maybe even gargoyles - would be good.

 ruminator wrote:
Not sure how you make pyrovore playable

Torrent, I4, grenades. Work complete.

He wouldn't be amazing, but he'd be worth taking imo.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ruminator wrote:
Not sure how you make pyrovore playable

Torrent, I4, grenades. Work complete.

He wouldn't be amazing, but he'd be worth taking imo.

and +1A

Just being able to assign Warriors, Shrieks, Venomthropes, Raveners etc. to units of Gaunts, Gargoyles and Hormagaunts ala Necron Lords/Crypteks would make a massive improvement IMO. Max 3 per unit or something and they can take advantage of 6th edition shooting rules to avoid S8 weapons while still being vulnerable to precision shots.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ruminator wrote:
Not sure how you make pyrovore playable

Torrent, I4, grenades. Work complete.

He wouldn't be amazing, but he'd be worth taking imo.

Torrent and reduced cost.

Never underestimate reduced cost.

How much would you pay per pyrovore using the current rules + torrent?

 schadenfreude wrote:


Torrent and reduced cost.

Never underestimate reduced cost.

How much would you pay per pyrovore using the current rules + torrent?

I think I'd still be taking Hive Guard or Zoanthropes in most situations if they remain mostly unchanged. Nids aren't exactly desperate for short-range anti-infantry that they need to use precious Elite slots for Pyrovores.

That's the main reason I'd like to see some of the mid-sized creatures like Venomthropes, Pyrovores or even Zoanthropes be turned into Techmarine-style IC's. You get to take 1-2 per Troops choice, it doesn't use a force org slot and can be attached to other squads to buff them and create interesting combinations.

Edit: an IC Pyrovore with torrent AND assault grenades would be awesome for making melee Warrior squads more viable.

 Souleater wrote:
Hopefully the Studio's fondness for 2nd Edition will mean the return of T5 Warriors (drop them down to two Wounds)

It is a simple fix for all mid-sized Nid creatures that doesn't make them immune to Wraithcannon, Railguns, etc that should just kill them. Neither does it need any extra dice.

I *think* that one reason for the old EW was to give HTs and Fexes some protection against Force Weapons, et al that they lacked an INV save against.

AGain, that is another design problem - GW heavily restrict the amount of INV saves the Nids get but don't give them slightly higher Toughness to offset this in other areas.

I hope they are looking at the way nids fight. I've always played a bitey list with shooting support but over the course of 5th and even moreso in 6th I find myself playing Buguard.

Well, the new daemons mostly lost toughness, reduced save to 5+ across the board, no EW and gained some wounds and/or points reductions. Maybe a taste of things to come for Nids?

I'm not sure how to translate that to Nids, since they already can play at the horde army thing.

 Shandara wrote:


Well, the new daemons mostly lost toughness, reduced save to 5+ across the board, no EW and gained some wounds and/or points reductions. Maybe a taste of things to come for Nids?

I'm not sure how to translate that to Nids, since they already can play at the horde army thing.

They did that to sell more plastic daemons so daemons could be cheaper points-wise. The larger daemons now get randomised gifts that can potentially make the more survivable.

My money says the larger Nids will get to roll for 'evolutions' to make them more random and less reliable more cinematic.

whoadirty wrote:

orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

I could see Tervigons becoming transports.

Fits GWs method of nerf batting great units hard.

A toughness increase would go a long way to putting our mid-range bugs back on the field. I know I'm not alone in wanting to field a "Warrior-level" army. Even at their current point value you'd see more of them that way

As it stands, every warrior, Ravener, lictor, etc... is absolutely overshadowed by another unit in the same class. Raveners clearly are inferior to Gargoyles point for point, and can't even kill things half as well. Warriors can be a dice and slice melee deathstar... but are no harder to wound than your average space marine without the armor to back it up, and in fact are more vulnerable due to their own size and small unit status.

Lictors don't mesh well with the synergy of the deepstrike rules, and are woefully obliterated when something so much as looks at them.

The only mid-range bugs that perform well are Zoanthropes and Hive guard. Hive guard being a perfect example of being tough yet not needing Space Marine lvl armor, and Zoanthropes having an invul save and excellent shooting options for a reasonable cost, but are trapped being stuck in an overcrowded section. I can't remember the last time I saw someone field a Venomthrope.

My solution? Keep warriors as a unit... but put them into multiple roles ala Dawn of War: you have your heavy support warriors, your fighty warriors, and your shooty warriors. This is alongside the T increase.

Make Venomthropes an option for broods to take. Otherwise they're fine, even at their toughness.

Lictors and Raveners need to be absolute beasts in combat and actually perform the job that they're clearly intended for. The studio also has to stop relying on Rending as the Tyranid answer for dealing with tough armor saves... this across multiple selections in the codex. Just let lictors have unnatural strength... they won't be popping vehicles, but they can be a credible threat. Also, allow them to be placed in some fashion (this goes for Ymgarls too) that doesn't require note passing and the assumption your opponent isn't screwing with you but also allows them to be effective turn 1 onward. Raveners should be whirlwinds of death that should be able to follow momma snake or be a much greater threat when they deepstrike, rather than the bolter bait they currently are. Frankly, some kind of synergy between our MCs and our other bugs could also fix these ones... the Tervigon was a tremendous step in the right direction.

If GW insists on utilizing the Fluff as validation for a unit's abilities, then at least consider the fluff correctly for the units in question.

Rippers need to stop being made worse each edition. This last version was a joke that literally made them unplayable. Again, attaching them as an option for units would go great for the synergistic approach most people envision for a Tyranid horde. You could even keep them as their own unit... make those the ones with spinefists.

Oh, and just let the thorax swarm choose the ammo each round? You'd be amazed how many people would consider this then.

As it stands, the Tyranid codex is missing a great deal of tools other armies take for granted... and not just SM.

 Shandara wrote:


Well, the new daemons mostly lost toughness, reduced save to 5+ across the board, no EW and gained some wounds and/or points reductions. Maybe a taste of things to come for Nids?

I'd lay money it is going to be exactly that. Sadly, I feel more and more as if my Nids exist merely to be a punchbag for SM in assault.

Sit the studio down and make them play a few games of Space Hulk before they fiddle with Nids again.

I really hope Nids don't turn into a random dice roll for upgrade like CSM & Daemons.

That is not how forced evolution works. Since Nids evolve themselves as a direct result to the enemy that they are fighting, any kind of d6 roll so see if they have Toxin Sacks or Adrenal Glands is about as ‘fluffy and cinematic’ as SMs rolling a d6 to see what weapons the bring to the fight. Terminator Bob really wished he rolled a 6 on the dice so he could use a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for the fight, but sadly, he rolled a 1 and now has to fight Tyranid Warriors with a Chain Sword. He didn't even know that that was an option for Terminators. Better luck next time Terminator Bob and remember, YAY cinematic!...

Also, Nids aren't Chaos Gods so there is no fluff justification for randomness like the weak one they used for all Chaos forces.



Something that would be ‘fluffy and cinematic’ would be letting Nid players chose upgrades after they have seen their opponent’s army or, at least, who they are fighting. That would be a great representation of how Nids fight using attrition and genetic modification to make the bugs more effective as the fight goes on.

Some kind of chart where you pay X or 2X and you can select an upgrade or two from a list after both sides placed their armies on the board. Or maybe make each upgrade give the opponent a VP.

Or just allow the mid player to buy Preferred Enemy.

I have this thing about using existing, simple solutions where possible.

Easy fix for lictors is to give them stealth all the time, and give them shrouding if they did not move, charge, or fight in cc the previous turn. On the turn they arrive a natural 2+ cover should help keep them alive.

Warriors and raveners have not been popular, so they have a good chance of being fixed.

When is the new codex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah. It'll be several thousand charts you roll randomly cinematically on before the game starts.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Easy fix for lictors is to give them stealth all the time, and give them shrouding if they did not move, charge, or fight in cc the previous turn. On the turn they arrive a natural 2+ cover should help keep them alive.

Warriors and raveners have not been popular, so they have a good chance of being fixed.

I'd prefer Lictors to be a unit upgrade, with hidden deployment ala assassins in WFB.
Kill the unit with shooting and the Lictor is never placed, but get into assault and the lictor displaces a nid model.
(Naturally, you have to show you have physically written down what units have lictors at deployment else you can't place them)

But I'd be a big fan of the Tyranids going in the direction of lots of multi-model-type, multi-wound units (Pyrovores in Gaunt units to use wall of death to defend objectives, Venomthropes in Hormagaunt units providing cover as they charge etc. suddenly precision shots become important).

 ruminator wrote:


Not sure how you make pyrovore playable, but worried about how they ruin Doom.

Would love to be able to make a carnifex T7.

Not actual rumors:

Pyrovore- give Torrent USR and option for flamespurt to fire as 18" S8 AP1 melta
Carnifex and Hive Tyrant ought to be able to buy either Armored shell (2+ save) or Extended Carapace (+1T) for 40 points per model. Carnifex would be brought down to 140 points base.
Warriors ought to be able to choose Wings for 10 points per model (move to FA), Bonded exoskeleton (3+ save) for 15 points per model or Extended carapace (+1T) for 20 points per model. Remove the Shrike entry.

I think 1 entry per FOS is fine. It reduces a LOT of confustion that the last codex had. It just needs to be more clear that Warriors in HQ, Troops, & FA are still Warriors and gain all Warrior specific buffs. Same goes for Rippers and Stealers.

I do like the Lictor idea of being a hidden model in the unit.

Wishlist for Pyrovore - Template, Acid Gel : reduce hull points by 1 at the end of each turn, for d3 turns. Stackable.

OJchimpson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nah. It'll be several thousand charts you roll randomly cinematically on before the game starts.

Nah, it's just one chart, but you have to roll on another chart to figure out how cinematic the roll on the first chart will be.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Pyrovore- give Torrent USR and option for flamespurt to fire as 18" S8 AP1 melta

I'd swap its profile with the Hive Guards as well. Hive Guard don't need to be super tough, since they're generally going to be behind LoS blocking cover. Pyrovores are going to be in the enemies face, so they shouldn't be on fragile frames. It feels like Cruddace accidentally copy/pasted the profiles around. He's fairly fond of that technique, so it's an easy mistake for him to make.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Carnifex and Hive Tyrant ought to be able to buy either Armored shell (2+ save) or Extended Carapace (+1T) for 40 points per model. Carnifex would be brought down to 140 points base.

This would be fantastic. I'd also add that some of the Carnifexes weapon options need some points adjustments. I'd bring Devourers down to 10 each and Deathspitters to 5 each. Also both types of Venom Cannons need to lose that terrible old -1 on the damage table rule. It was fine back when Tyranids weren't meant to have reliable ranged anti tank - they've got plenty now. All this does is make the VC and HVC options no one likes.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Warriors ought to be able to choose Wings for 10 points per model (move to FA), Bonded exoskeleton (3+ save) for 15 points per model or Extended carapace (+1T) for 20 points per model. Remove the Shrike entry.

I'm fine with Shrikes being their own entry, though they really deserve that 4+ save back. Just make them 10 points more than a Warrior, the same price, without the armour options, and all the same weapon options. Saves opponent confusion with FoC slot swapping.

 -Loki- wrote:

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Pyrovore- give Torrent USR and option for flamespurt to fire as 18" S8 AP1 melta

I'd swap its profile with the Hive Guards as well. Hive Guard don't need to be super tough, since they're generally going to be behind LoS blocking cover. Pyrovores are going to be in the enemies face, so they shouldn't be on fragile frames. It feels like Cruddace accidentally copy/pasted the profiles around. He's fairly fond of that technique, so it's an easy mistake for him to make.

I actually rather like the Hive Guard being T6. It ties them as a Tyrant Guard variant. There are T3 "gaunts", T4 "warriors", and T6 "guard" each with their own unique body types. Most of the non-MC Tyranids are variants on this body type. Having a new classification of "Vores" being T5 would fit extremely well; the Biovore and Pyrovore look like they should be much tougher than an Ork anyways.

Plus, the differentiation between the guarding TyrantGuard and the shooty HiveGuard is their armor save as is reflected in the models.

Regardless, everyone pretty much passes over Pyrovores being exceptionally underpowered in a codex already bloated with desirable units in Elites.

i dont think the warrior size bugs will ever get EW. there is no reason for them to have it - and giving it to them in any fashion would make them broke. - and everyone woud take them, instead of the cheaper smaller bugs.

instead, an easy soultion i think, would be combined squads, and allow the smaller ones to LOS for the warriors.

allow warriors to "combine" or attach to another unit of gaunts, of any type much like imperial gaurd infantry platoons can combine. this would allow you to:
- fit the theme of a more "horde / swarm"
- bring a nice LD boost and synapse to the smaller gaunts, along with some heavy/special weapons
- give you some protection from heavier fire.

shrikes can do the same with gargoyles. also an over all reduction in points would seem to fit... but nothing too spectacular. i would think reducing them by 5-10ptd each and keeping the weapons to max +15pts would be ideal. the problem one runs into however, is with a toughness 4 3 wound model.. how much protection and point reducing is too much?

if space marines had a t4 3 wound marine with a plasma gun... for 40pts would that not be broken? what about a squad of them? got to figure some form of balance with other armies has to play in here.

Several new bugs (not all will make it).

To me, this is a major red flag for dodgy rumours. From my understanding of the GW design process, the models come first and the rules come later. There is (as far as I'm aware) no chance whatsoever that a unit will be removed from the codex because of playtesting. Rules will be revised, background may be re-written but so far as I'm aware, the units which are going to appear in the codex are decided before the author even starts writing it let alone before playtesting.

Even units which don't get models released for them seem to have their presence dictated by the potential for having a model release in the future... or a screw-up from the designers (apparently that's what happened with the Vendetta: the design team said that the Valkyrie would be a dual-kit, they found that they couldn't fit all the necessary parts on the sprue, the codex team didn't get informed).

 DarthSpader wrote:

if space marines had a t4 3 wound marine with a plasma gun... for 40pts would that not be broken? what about a squad of them? got to figure some form of balance with other armies has to play in here.

That would be relevant if any weapon Tyranids had was that effective. Or if their armor save was a 3+ like a marine.

T4 W3 4+ save with an assault 3 Str5 AP 5 18" gun for 35 points is too expensive - flat out.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Carnifex and Hive Tyrant ought to be able to buy either Armored shell (2+ save) or Extended Carapace (+1T) for 40 points per model. Carnifex would be brought down to 140 points base.

I like the idea of Carnifexes being made T7 or even T8 basic. Nids already have lots of T6 MC's and this would help differentiate the Fex and give it a role as a real damage sink as it often has to wander across the board slowly. Then give it the option of a 2+ armour upgrade. Then they'd be less prone to being nuked by a handful of krak missiles in one turn.

-Loki- wrote:Also both types of Venom Cannons need to lose that terrible old -1 on the damage table rule. It was fine back when Tyranids weren't meant to have reliable ranged anti tank - they've got plenty now. All this does is make the VC and HVC options no one likes.

Maybe the Venom Cannon could be repurposed slightly:

Venom Cannon = 36" | Strength 6 | Assault 3 | AP4 | Ignores Cover
Heavy Venom Cannon = 36" | Strength 7 | Assault 4 | AP3 | Ignores Cover

By replacing the blast with multiple shots and letting it ignore cover, it allows Tyranids to counter entrenched forces as they advance. It's a serious threat to vehicles hiding behind buildings or aegis lines, and negates Jink on skimmers/flyers. Heavier ranged anti-tank could be provided by Tyrannofexes.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthSpader wrote:

T4 W3 4+ save with an assault 3 Str5 AP 5 18" gun for 35 points is too expensive - flat out.

Plus Warriors are often needed as a key synapse unit to keep your army together. If they're not made any tougher, they should be cheaper to afford more of them.

Ability to shoot into CC please. It doesn't make any sense that Tyranids have second thoughts about it.

I like this idea of mixed unit bugs, not sure how well the wound allocations would work out if you did that though...

As to firing into combat, I think that's really a game mechanics thing...

Not a fan of mixed units if only because of wound allocation issues. There definitely needs to be more Synergy between some units though, like Termagants/Hormagaunts and Warriors.

Skaven have the option to shoot into CC in WHFB, and only them afaik. I would love to have it as a general rule ofc but for Tyranids it is a must.