Rumour about Tyranid playtests

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**Absolutionis**

HBMC, you haven't seen the whole phrase. When they mean"every unit", they mean "every unit with a new model".

**Ozymandias**

whoadirty wrote:
orkybenji wrote:
A giant creature that acts as a transport for little bugs would be cool, or they could copy the worm things from Starcraft.

Or you know, copy from real life.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/wolf-spider-carrying-offspring/20621

Gah!! Purge it with fire!!

**Absolutionis**

From Faeit 212:

It seems that playtest rules are coming out of the woodwork, and these ones are really starting to give us some idea to what a new Tyranid codex might look like. Its just too bad that we are not closer to the codex release.

Please remember that these are playtest rumors, and that while playtesting rules give us some insight as to the direction of the codex, most get altered, changed, or dropped in the final product.

via an anonymous source (anonymous for obvious reasons)
FoC manipulation and "new" deployment options are based on the various stages and methods of a Tyranid invasion. The design goal is to be able to represent in a viable manner things like stealthy vanguard forces, huge waves of little gribblies, the sheer brute force of monstrous creatures in the final stages of invasions, surprise forces coming from underground and the sky, and so on. Pretty exciting to know that someone in charge acknowledges that Tyranids are multi-faceted.

Further details that the others did not mention:
- A lot of flexibility in the form of army composition. As opposed to the very mutable stats of units and weapons of the old codex, which caused a lot of headaches for opponents.
- Hive Tyrants are the main source of FOC manipulation. The idea is that they can specialize the scoring elements of the army.... but you have to pay for it.
- Reserve manipulation is a very strong theme in the codex. These options are more numerous and reliable than in the current codex. And that's because...
- Mycetic Spores have expanded rules for ease of use. This includes MC broods.
- Trygon tunnels are also greatly expanded. Raveners have additional synergy with the tunnels. Even Monstrous Creatures can use them but with a penalty.
- More outflanking options. Various ideas are being thrown around on the topic of protecting Genestealers and especially Lictors from being shot to pieces when they appear.

And the most important rule that is being tested...
Synapse offering protection from Instant Death in a brand new way. Right now this is being tested only on creatures that have the Synapse rule (not within the aura): Wounds that trigger ID can instead be rolled to either cause 1 Wound, 2 Wounds, or ID. The designers have mentioned that multi wound models are problematic in the ruleset and doubly for for Tyranids who have many such units, yet because of the abundance of S8 and above weapons they cannot rely on them.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/03/tyranid-foc-manipulation-hive-tyrants.html#more

**Fat_Little_Ripper**

While it's too early for me to get too excited about a new codex for the Tyranids being in the works, I do like that I'm hearing rumors even if they turn out to be bunk.

Some of these sound very much like wish listing, but are at least something to think about till the new book does arrive.

As it stands, my group is still using 5th edition since there are only 3 of us and none of our Codices have been updated yet.

Until then, I'm just going to keep adding to my swarm, maybe even getting a few things like a Pyrovore or two just in case. Nice models, even if they're not worth much in game at the moment...

**lord_blackfang**

So all of a sudden 4-5 different sources are mailing Faeit212 with information about a book that's still at least a year off, while that same Faeit212 didn't have a clue about daemons 5 days before they came out?

**Brock79**

The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

Not a fething chance, unless they are referring to friendly/"fluffy" games and not tournaments/meta in which case I would actually buy it. GW seems to be allergic to the competitive environment of their game, so maybe.

**Sasori**

Brock79 wrote:
The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

Not a fething chance, unless they are referring to friendly/"fluffy" games and not tournaments/meta in which case I would actually buy it. GW seems to be allergic to the competitive environment of their game, so maybe.

I don't know, Tyranids were the Flagship Xeno codex until we got the Cruddace treatment. I could see them trying to return to that standard.

**Marrak**

Sasori wrote:
Brock79 wrote:
The big text on the design board (figuratively speaking) is "Every Unit Viable. Every unit desirable."

Not a fething chance, unless they are referring to friendly/"fluffy" games and not tournaments/meta in which case I would actually buy it. GW seems to be allergic to the competitive environment of their game, so maybe.

I don't know, Tyranids were the Flagship Xeno codex until we got the Cruddace treatment. I could see them trying to return to that standard.

Sasori may have a point... Tyranids went from being a top seller to... not. All in the span of a single release. Regardless of their "beer and pretzel" idea for the game, even GW seems to realize this isn't flying with the Nids.

**xttz**

Marrak wrote:
Sasori wrote:

I don't know, Tyranids were the Flagship Xeno codex until we got the Cruddace treatment. I could see them trying to return to that standard.

Sasori may have a point... Tyranids went from being a top seller to... not. All in the span of a single release. Regardless of their "beer and pretzel" idea for the game, even GW seems to realize this isn't flying with the Nids.

To be fair, GW did shoot themselves in the foot with the model releases. By far the most competitive new unit in the codex didn't get a model until 2 years later, by which point everyone had already either converted their own or shopped somewhere like Chapterhouse. It also took a bit longer than that for 6e to make other units more viable (Flyrants).

I can believe this "every unit viable" statement because it seems to be something they've followed with the new Daemons book. It'll be nice to see if new army releases keep this kind of internal balance that gives a player plenty of choices, rather than just using a handful of 'optimal' units.

**Kroothawk**

Mycetic Spores have expanded rules for ease of use. This includes MC broods.

Mycetic Spores will become so good that GW is contemplating giving them a model 4-5 years after introduction

**uberjoras**

Very interesting that we have rumors coming out about 'nids, who are so far out, compared to Tau or Eldar, who are supposedly around the corner.

Not... entirely convinced by these rumors. What's the phrase... "too good to be true"? Though, some of them reek of 4e nostalgia wishlisting as well.

**Tyrs13**

Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

They can make you I1 and inflict instant death with no armor saves in assault. They have a decent armor save and 3 wounds to boot ...

I can defiantly see some kind of EW save from Synapse making its way in. I wouldnt say a 3+ ... maybe a 5+ with an upgrade to 4+ like necrons.

Your small bugs are pretty damn cheap ... chances are they will take away the evolution costs and have a synapse creature grant it in a bubble.
(IE a Venom Thorpe granting the Poison attacks)

They are big with Sgt/Lord type units joining squads or being around squads improving them in certain ways. They are also big on the Random. Your hive tyrant has killed a IC in combat they absorbe some of their genetic material ... roll on a chart to determine what you gain.

**Eldercaveman**

I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

I also think shadows in the warp should be changed to 6" base, and then +6" per extra creature with the special rule you have on the table, works well with the fluff of it.

**H.B.M.C.**

Eldercaveman wrote:
I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

Oh good. Let's add more pointless dice-rolling to the game.

**Absolutionis**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

Oh good. Let's add more pointless dice-rolling to the game.

That is a decent point. d3 wounds is 2 wounds on average. They should just make it a static 2 wounds when in Synapse and everything will pretty much be fine. Warriors/Raveners will not be insta-gibbed yet S8+ weaponry will still be very effective against them.

This whole anti-ID concept seems awfully similar to the superior 6thEd leaked rules that never came to be. Smells of wishlisting, in a way.

**Eldercaveman**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
I think within synapse, wounds that would normally cause instant death cause d3 wounds instead.

Oh good. Let's add more pointless dice-rolling to the game.

Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

**H.B.M.C.**

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

**Eldercaveman**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

I'll admit, it was a terrible and nonconstructive response, however, it was just as constructive as your complete shut down of an idea I put out there. Maybe you wouldn't have had such a terrible response, if your original response would have been a little more like your point 1.

**-Loki-**

Niiai wrote:
The smaller bugs become cheaper? That does not sound right, they are some of the most playable right now.

They're really not. The only small bugs that are playable are Termagants, and that's only because the babyfactory makes them for free.

Making Termagants and Hormagaunts cheaper base means more people will take them without the babyfactory - this would be a good thing.

**Absolutionis**

Eldercaveman wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

I'll admit, it was a terrible and nonconstructive response, however, it was just as constructive as your complete shut down of an idea I put out there. Maybe you wouldn't have had such a terrible response, if your original response would have been a little more like your point 1.

I thought he had a point, because he does.

We roll dice to determine uncertain outcomes and make things exciting. After rolling to hit, wound, save, and feelnopain, rolling an additonal die is just clunky.

d3s are clunky anyways.

**-Loki-**

Tyrs13 wrote:
Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

Not very scary?

Their 3 wounds and 4+ saves don't mean a thing when a powerfist wipes out 3 in a turn due to them only being T4. Or when a smart player shoots them with S8 weapons long before they reach combat.

**Eldercaveman**

Absolutionis wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

Oh dear. What a terrible response you've posted.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).
2. Who said anything about time limits? Oh wait, you automatically assumed I was talking about tournament gamers so decided to jump up to attack the restricted time manner of tournament games whilst at the same time going on about 'inner geek', thereby attempting to take the non-existent "I'm just playing for fun" high-ground.

Transparent.

I'll admit, it was a terrible and nonconstructive response, however, it was just as constructive as your complete shut down of an idea I put out there. Maybe you wouldn't have had such a terrible response, if your original response would have been a little more like your point 1.
I thought he had a point, because he does.

We roll dice to determine uncertain outcomes and make things exciting. After rolling to hit, wound, save, and feelnopain, rolling an additonal die is just clunky.

d3s are clunky anyways.

He does have a point, now that he has made one, rather than just saying, o yay lets add more dice. I can see his point now he has actually fleshed one out, I never said my idea was a highly thought out and extensively play tested idea, just an idea off the bat. What about the Synapse suggestion? Any thoughts on that?

Edit.. We should probably drop this all together as it is off topic now, just realised this is still in the rumours section, and we are quickly steering it towards Proposed rules.

**gorgon**

Wow, the bit about Tyranid invasion stages is something the studio supposedly kicked around a LONG time ago. My memory is failing me a little here, but it must have been for the 3rd edition codex. I remember hearing designers talk about it (those were the days when they talked about such things and shared WIP codexes and such at events). IIRC, the idea was for three army lists -- vanguard/early invasion/late invasion, or something like that -- which would dictate the kind of organisms you'd have at your disposal.

If this rumor is true and not some kind of 12-year-old recycle (which would have to be some kind of record), the execution of that concept is almost certainly much different and more limited now, as suggested by the bit about Tyrants and org chart maneuvering.

**Tyranid grognard out**

**Tyrs13**

-Loki- wrote:
Tyrs13 wrote:
Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

Not very scary?

Their 3 wounds and 4+ saves don't mean a thing when a powerfist wipes out 3 in a turn due to them only being T4. Or when a smart player shoots them with S8 weapons long before they reach combat.

What good is a power fist when its already dead? Bone Sword + Lash whip combo will wipe out most MEQ squads before they can even attack.
The only think that will matter are invul saves ... so dont charge the unit of TH/SS Termies.

Sure you have to worry about high Str Shooting ... join the club. There is very little Str 8 shots wont cure.
Take a venomthrope to provide cover for the unit as it advances or saturate your enemy with high T creatures.

Or use some Ymgarl to take out the dangerous Str 8 weapons. Or your choice of deepstriking units.

I also found the hive guard to be effective at taking out targets with their 24" ignore cover str 8 assault 2 weapons.

**rigeld2**

Tyrs13 wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Tyrs13 wrote:
Do you know how scary a brood of warriors are when fighting vs them?

Not very scary?

Their 3 wounds and 4+ saves don't mean a thing when a powerfist wipes out 3 in a turn due to them only being T4. Or when a smart player shoots them with S8 weapons long before they reach combat.

What good is a power fist when its already dead? Bone Sword + Lash whip combo will wipe out most MEQ squads before they can even attack.
The only think that will matter are invul saves ... so dont charge the unit of TH/SS Termies.

Yes, a 45 point model will dominate a model that costs less than it. News flash.
And why are you striking at initiative? There's this thing called "cover" that my opponents typically hide in when I'm running CC warriors. It makes you swing at the same time as a Power Fist.

Sure you have to worry about high Str Shooting ... join the club. There is very little Str 8 shots wont cure.

Most of it has armor that isn't ignored by an Autocannon.

Take a venomthrope to provide cover for the unit as it advances or saturate your enemy with high T creatures.

Yeah, spend one of our crowded Elite slots to babysit a unit until the Thrope gets IDed by a stray missile.

Or use some Ymgarl to take out the dangerous Str 8 weapons. Or your choice of deepstriking units.

Only the Ymgarls can assault the turn they come in - everyone else has to sit there and look pretty for a turn.

I also found the hive guard to be effective at taking out targets with their 24" ignore cover str 8 assault 2 weapons.

Sure, they're effective. When they get in range.

No, it's not all doom and gloom for Nids right now. But trying to paint a rosy picture where Warriors are awesome just doesn't work.

**Avian**

"Rumours from play testing" is netspeak for "here's some stuff I made up all by myself".

It's been many years since anything claimed to be from a play tester has shown any evidence of actually being from one.

**schadenfreude**

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts venomthropes gain stealth and shrouded, and the crappy bubble of 5++ cover becomes a bubble of stealth or shrouding.

What would make bug players happy is warrior options between affordable or expensive & deadly. All warriors really need to get past powerfists and s8 shooting is an option where they are +1T for the purpose of ID threshold. Beats the snot out of making them EW because IMO they should always go kersplat when hit by s10.

What else does my magic 8 ball say purely on my own conjecture...

Pyrovores=better because let's be honest it's going to be really tough for gw to make them worse.

Doom=worse same logic as the pyrovore.

**Kroothawk**

Avian wrote:
"Rumours from play testing" is netspeak for "here's some stuff I made up all by myself".
It's been many years since anything claimed to be from a play tester has shown any evidence of actually being from one.

Define evidence in this context. Like posting a pic of your driver licence next to the NDA contract?
Obviously, you and me have different views on how to discuss rumours, esp. early rumours.
Discussing play testing rumours is obviously only for fun, as we all know that these are not the final version even with best sources.

**xttz**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah because who would have thought of rolling dice, in a dice based game?? We don't all play to finish a game in a restricted time limit, some of us play because we like to dedicate an evening to letting our inner geek get out.

1. I didn't say there was anything wrong with rolling dice. I mentioned adding pointless dice-rolling. Needing to roll a D3 every time something in Synapse suffers an Instant Death roll would be tedious, especially on lower Toughness things (like Warriors).

I think the cleanest way to do it is by simply giving Synapse creatures an invulnerable save that can only be used against attacks that inflict ID. It's not really any additional rolling and can be explained from a fluff perspective as the power of the Hive Mind strengthening the creature at a critical moment.

Kroothawk wrote:
Avian wrote:
"Rumours from play testing" is netspeak for "here's some stuff I made up all by myself".
It's been many years since anything claimed to be from a play tester has shown any evidence of actually being from one.

Define evidence in this context. Like posting a pic of your driver licence next to the NDA contract?
Obviously, you and me have different views on how to discuss rumours, esp. early rumours.
Discussing play testing rumours is obviously only for fun, as we all know that these are not the final version even with best sources.

To be fair, he has a point. We're suddenly hearing all sorts of things about Nids that are at least a year away and yet people are still speculating as to if the new Tau stuff will be shown next week, next month or in June.

We should all take turns emailing Faeit with our own Nid wishlists and see what gets through.

**Souleater**

Hopefully the Studio's fondness for 2nd Edition will mean the return of T5 Warriors (drop them down to two Wounds)

It is a simple fix for all mid-sized Nid creatures that doesn't make them immune to Wraithcannon, Railguns, etc that should just kill them. Neither does it need any extra dice.

I *think* that one reason for the old EW was to give HTs and Fexes some protection against Force Weapons, et al that they lacked an INV save against.

AGain, that is another design problem - GW heavily restrict the amount of INV saves the Nids get but don't give them slightly higher Toughness to offset this in other areas.

I hope they are looking at the way nids fight. I've always played a bitey list with shooting support but over the course of 5th and even moreso in 6th I find myself playing Buguard.