A half-recalled rumor from not so long ago goes that Nottingham has no idea what to do with Bretonnia. From my own point of view, the fairy tale kingdoms of chivalry look pretty banal compared to the rest of WHFB. Even the Empire, with is Steam Tanks, Celestial Hurricanum, and Demigryph Knights are far more fantastical. Bretonnia only has Pegasus Knights along those lines. The rest of their line looks dated not just in the sense of being older sculpts but also in the sense of being rather closer to "historicals" than any other army.

So what would you guys do to bring Bretonnia up to speed?

Not much really, they have a niche and fit it perfectly.

Maybe add Hyppogryph Knights as a Monstrous Cavalry unit.

Grail Knights on Unicorns?

An unit of undead knights, long dead heroes sent by the Lady to aid the faithful. Etherial, Undead, Grail Knight stats.

Heavy Infantry Foot Knights (With a much better name.)

Balistas- they need more warmachines.

More Outrageous French Accents.

Foot knights or veteran men-at-arms.

The undead knight idea is actually really neat. Saints back from the dead.

Unicorn/monstrous cavalry is also a good idea.

Souped up Lord/Hero version of the Grail Reliquae as a war altar type thing.

Full blown peasant levies that can manage to be cheaper and worse than current men-at-arms.

Full weapon customization on knights? Flails and what have you.

Yeah... I guess there's not that variety.

Men-at-arms could use a buff. They were kinda like the Middle class in the Middle Ages. Professional soldiers not of noble birth. They were definitly a step up from the peasents.

Then you have actual peasent levies. 2 points of crap. Can be upgraded to have a Grail Reliqua(or however you spell it)

Not much different. They already are a special army with their heavy focus on cavalry. It's not just their army book that's weak, it's mostly 8th nerfing cavalry in general. They are still viable and them suddenly getting huge monsters wouldn't fit at all. Maybe some cool special characters you can actually field or sth.? Got no idea.

They already have a Monstrous Cavalry unit in Pegasus Knights, so I dont see them getting anything else unfortunately Besides that, I cant really see what they could do with Bretonnia, as they are pretty solid for the most part. Just need a lot of point and rule changes in order to make them more effective at the moment. But, if anything I could see a new War-Machine like a Batista and Lady of the Lake Foot Knights/Peasant unit based off the Crusaders carrying the Cross. Plus, since if they base it off the Bretonnia books, I could see a switch of Grail Knights becoming a Character type of unit and replacing them with a different one.

I do like the idea of a unit of Knights like the Green Knight though. Spectral Knights charging out of the woods or mist to aid there Brethren in battle personally sounds like a cool idea to me =D. Bretonnia is by far my favorite army in WHFB, but I wont be buying anymore of them until they get a new book so hopefully they will come out with one soon.

Well Pegasus are flying MC. They could use a non-flying MC unit.

That would be something unique. Only book with 2 different MC units.

Ethereal Knights would be neat. Perhaps something like a unit of lesser versions of the Green Knight. Would also help offset the likelihood that they'll lose the Ethereal banner.

With GW's tendency towards bigger models, some sort of mobile Grail chapel "chariot"?

And, because someone has to say it, a large wooden rabbit.

They'll probably just put the Treb on the large base with a new model.

I could see the Grail Relic thingy the Pilgrims carry give out a buff aura.

and lol rabbit

I like the Anglican style of knights and such. Personally, I think I would try to convert them into more of a Hun or Mongol themed army. Though it would be difficult, I have seen models from other distributors that would fit well, plus I think it would be awesome.

I also think that there should not be 2 European based style armies of men, I like them both, but Cathay or Araby would be better, and have much wider area of possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would definitely like to see Grail Knights on Unicorns though, that would be badass, like armoured Unicorn mounts.

Ethereal Knights would also be really cool.

Warhammer already has not one, but two mongol/hun themed armies.

Ogres and Kislev. Yeah, Kislev hasn't had anything official for years but they're still there.


Brettonia is clearly Arthurian Legend. making them mongolian or hun would completely destroy the existing army. You might as well just write an entirely new army book.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Warhammer already has not one, but two mongol/hun themed armies.

Ogres and Kislev. Yeah, Kislev hasn't had anything official for years but they're still there.


Brettonia is clearly Arthurian Legend. making them mongolian or hun would completely destroy the existing army. You might as well just write an entirely new army book.

You mean 3, Hobgoblins are still very mongol like last I remember (yes they're not a full army by any means but still, GW loves mongols)


How would you feel if their Men at Arms polearms could be used as either spears or halberds in the same game? Maybe declare before a combat encounter. You cant change per round like BO but it might give them a wee bit more flexibility, even if halberds are usually the superior choice

 Grey Templar wrote:
That would be something unique. Only book with 2 different MC units.

I think that would suit Bretonnia very well.

 Manchu wrote:
Bretonnia only has Pegasus Knights along those lines. The rest of their line looks dated not just in the sense of being older sculpts but also in the sense of being rather closer to "historicals" than any other army.

So what would you guys do to bring Bretonnia up to speed?

I personally think Bretonnia is fine. I mean there are fantastical monsters in the other armies, and by the Lady, I need knights to slay them with!

Thats the allure of bretonnia, knights slaying monsters. Its all very heroic.
Besides Bretonnia does have some awesome models. Our plastics are all very good, and the Questing Knights are gorgeous.

What Bretonnia needs is some new rules to make certain units- like Questing Knights or the Grail Relaquie a bit more competitive, as well as plastic kits for Questing Knights, Battle Pigrims, and Mounted Yeomen to make them more feasible to field, which would do a lot to add variety to Bretonnian Armies that you see.

We also need a few more rare choices, but really thats about it.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Warhammer already has not one, but two mongol/hun themed armies.

Ogres and Kislev. Yeah, Kislev hasn't had anything official for years but they're still there.


Brettonia is clearly Arthurian Legend. making them mongolian or hun would completely destroy the existing army. You might as well just write an entirely new army book.

You mean 3, Hobgoblins are still very mongol like last I remember (yes they're not a full army by any means but still, GW loves mongols)

Yep, was hoping I wasn't the only one that remembered that. Hell, Oglah Khan's wolfboyz were even from the steppes north of Cathay.

I would like to see them bring back the 'chaos' element of Brettonia personally. Way way back when (4th edition I think) Brettonia was a very different animal, it was actually really dark, Brettonian nobles wore wigs and makeup (think France prior to Napoleon) not as a fashion statement but to hide their mutations. The peasant population was plague and disease ridden, and yeah, just it was really dark and bleak, and I like that a lot more than the current fairytale kingdom.

There just isn't much to distinguish Bretonnian models from any number of "medieval" models on the market. Bretonnia is unique as to WHFB in that it is the least fantastical faction -- but that also makes Bretonnia generic as to war gaming miniatures more generally. I think that's a huge weakness for a faction in a game called Warhammer FANTASY Battles.

There is a spirit to their background that is really awesome -- feats of arms and mighty deeds, legend and song, nobility and chivalry. I'm going to go ahead and say (while ducking) that if the Empire is analogous to the IG of 40k, Bretonnian Knights are the Space Marines of WHFB. "Give me a village's worth of hale and fit Stirlanders -- or a single Knight of the Realm."

You're far from the first to suggest such, actually.

We used to joke in 40K 3rd that WHFB Knights were the reason that Meltas were AP1.

 Manchu wrote:
There just isn't much to distinguish Bretonnian models from any number of "medieval" models on the market. Bretonnia is unique as to WHFB in that it is the least fantastical faction -- but that also makes Bretonnia generic as to war gaming miniatures more generally. I think that's a huge weakness for a faction in a game called Warhammer FANTASY Battles.

There is a spirit to their background that is really awesome -- feats of arms and mighty deeds, legend and song, nobility and chivalry. I'm going to go ahead and say (while ducking) that if the Empire is analogous to the IG of 40k, Bretonnian Knights are the Space Marines of WHFB. "Give me a village's worth of hale and fit Stirlanders -- or a single Knight of the Realm."

That does kind of make me think that Bret could use a "unit attachment/mini character" option, kind of like gitz for goblins. Heck maybe even make Grail Knights as a champion for some units much like in the knight errant list or something

Aesthetics wise, go back to the 5th ed style where the 'nobility' is out and out corrupt.

I always thought that empires knights were the space marines cos they are split up into multiple orders

Chaos Warriors are actually the inspiration for Space Marines. Elite more than human soldiers.

Well I certainly would NOT like to see knights riding unicorns.

I would give the existing units some buffs to bring them up to speed with 8th edition. I like the idea of an elite force of knights supported by a poorer ragtag of civilians pressed into battle.

I would give the Brettonians a much greater variety of magical banners than are available to other armies (for the knights, not commoners)

 Manchu wrote:
A half-recalled rumor from not so long ago goes that Nottingham has no idea what to do with Bretonnia. From my own point of view, the fairy tale kingdoms of chivalry look pretty banal compared to the rest of WHFB. Even the Empire, with is Steam Tanks, Celestial Hurricanum, and Demigryph Knights are far more fantastical. Bretonnia only has Pegasus Knights along those lines. The rest of their line looks dated not just in the sense of being older sculpts but also in the sense of being rather closer to "historicals" than any other army.

So what would you guys do to bring Bretonnia up to speed?

Give them baguettes

But naw what do they need to do for them? They are just the noble chivalrous snobby guys I think they're cool. They only reason I wouldn't collect them is too many colours going on. I want more simple painting.

JWhex wrote:
Well I certainly would NOT like to see knights riding unicorns.

Why not? Would it make it any better if they were female knights? (I believe there is already a female knight in this range, after all.)

foxyfennec wrote:
too many colours going on

It strikes me that so many colors are going on because little else is.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chaos Warriors are actually the inspiration for Space Marines. Elite more than human soldiers.

Source?

Outlaws would be very good, like Robin Hood style armies which don't have any knights (like a cheap version of wood elves, without the Dryads and Treemen.) And bandits, there is actually a pretty large thread about this over on the Roundtable of Bretonnia, which has all that has been suggested and more.

Would you mind posting a link?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Chaos Warriors are actually the inspiration for Space Marines. Elite more than human soldiers.

Except in Rogue Trader, Marines weren't really very "more than human". There were some genetic modifications(IIRC, most of it had to do with making them compatible for and able to control the implants for Power Armor) and hypnotic control, but overall, they were still human(they were even still the same height as non-Marines in the fluff). Rogue Trader was the most "Fantasy in Space" edition out there.

Also, like Manchu said: Source?

Couple of elite units based on the lore would do me. Something based on foot from Paravon, sort of middle ground between peasants and the Knights. The other would be an elite scout force based on something hunting the undead near Moullisson.

Thats all I've got at the moment.

Seems Bretonnia as established is an army of stark contrasts: nobles and peasants, strong cavalry and so-so infantry, colorful pageantry and mud-encrusted sackcloth. It reminds me of Monty Python, where one peasant asks "how'd you know that was the king?" and the other one answers, "because he's not covered in gak." Is there a middle ground? The yoemanry? TBH, that middle ground seems well-occupied by the Empire and I'm not saying Bretonnia should be more like the Empire in that sense. Bretonnia is the High Middle Ages to the Empire's Renaissance. It's rustic and rugged and romantic compared to the Empire's bourgeois intricacy.

Here is a link to almost the exact same thing on the Roundtable of Bretonnia.
http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=87&func=view&id=135212&catid=2&limit=15&limitstart=0

I would like to see the Grail Knights become monstrous cavalry. Same size models on bigger bases. Every Grail Knight should be rare and a big deal not just another unit of knights. I think it would fit the background better.

I think the Brets have a very good core of an army, they just need some unique and new support units (and of course some rule changes to the Bret bus).

Ideas like Yeomen hunting hound squad.

Bring back Bergerand the Brigand and his Merry men. (Dont' remember how it's spells.

Solo knights that specialize in slaying monsters(dragon slayers)

Foot knight blockS

more medival warmachines, maybe the scorpian (stuff thats good for seiges, but doesn't use gunpowder)

Maybe even a court of knights(champions that can be specialized), that can be divided among your units to lead them. and none of the knights of the realm or knights errants come with unit leaders.

Coconuts and cow catapults.

All suggestions before about seperating the nobility and the peasants ala Game of Thrones etc etc.

magical - druids,
(skirmishing?) warrior monks
crossover with woodies with drayds, The Green Man

Bretonnian's need this .

 happygolucky wrote:


Bretonnian's need this .

Dont worry, GW's love affair with chariots/big kits its almost a guarantee

To me their inspiration is the 100-years war whereas the Empire is on the verge of being an Italian renaissance army.

Make them a character based army so they tend to have awesome 2 HP leaders instead of company champions..
The character pays for and qualifies for different units...

So say 50 pts base - infantry commander - he can command a unit of men-at-arms
75 pts - knight commander - he can command a unit of knights...
75 pts - a beast commander - allows him to mount a fantastic creature - pegasi, hippogriff, etc.

The wedge formation gives them a unique ability to qualify for ranks and have some efficiency in charges so keep it
I liked the old wedge of archers also, it gave them an efficient - frontage wise - unt to address targets.

Have them invaded by the Border Princes and destroyed drop the army book and create a Cathay one

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Have them invaded by the Border Princes and destroyed drop the army book and create a Cathay one

Border princes doing anything other than trying to survive?

Good joke

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
drop the army book and create a Cathay one

How do you like Skorne?

Squires as a sort of 'basic' foot knight, or possibly as character sidekicks.

"Templar Knights" or some such, think super heavy greatsword wielding foot knights.

Militiamen as your basic peasant longbow types.

Reliquary (think of it as an ark of the covenant type thing) shrine type chariot.

Dragonslayers - MI with a mounted option, lots of bonuses versus monsters and a ward save against breath weapons.

I like that Dragonslayer idea a lot!

Lords on a royal pegasus should be able to join pegasus knights.

There needs to be more differential between the 4 knight units - both in looks and utility.

Lords on MCs need to be able to survive more than a turn.

Special characters that cost less than 300 pts.

Crusading Knights would be pretty cool. Or Flagellants, brutally whipping themselves into combat with their foes.

ruminator wrote:There needs to be more differential between the 4 knight units - both in looks and utility.

Questing Knights are fine, and have some of the best models in the fantasy range... but Grail Knights need a new look . As they really do look just like KotR.

As for lords on an MC surviving more than a turn... thats a problem with every book these days, and it all relates back to Cannons, and GW's obsession with giving everybody move and shoot cannons... GW has this weird thing where they feel the need to release gorgeous gigantic monsters and things, then release tons of cheap things which make people not want to buy the big expensive things. Its wierd.

That said,
I definitely agree that Bretonnia needs a form of Elite Infantry. Heavy Armoured Troops on foot. Would stand apart from the peasantry, and give access to an elite horde. Heavy Armour + Handweapon and the Knights Vow Standard, and options for things like halbreds, morningstars, shields, and great weapons would make for a fun unit if it were reasonably priced!

I could see a squad of Unicorn mounted knights being a flavorful addition. Look at the rules for Silvaron (the Fay Enchantress' mount), +2 strenght on the charge (for the mount), magical attacks (for the mount), magic resistance 2, etc. Would make for an excellent body guard for the Fay Enchantress both thematically, and because she can actually take a LoS onto monsterous calvalry. And it wouldn't feel like its stealing heavily from Empire Demigriph Knights.

I really like the Idea of Grail Knights being implimented similarly to Wolf Guard in the Space Wolves dex. an Elite squad with tons of different options (and the grail vow of course) who can either be run together, or split up as squad leaders for other squads. Would be fun and flavorful.

Also I think the Grail Relaquie should get a huge massive model and kit, and change its rules. Make it similar to the Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace and have it be pushed by the Battle Pilgrims. Then just give it an Aura, perhaps a 12 inch bubble of Hatred and Blessing Save +1? Sort of a Giant portable alter to the Lady and the Glory of Bretonnia... whats not to love?

Maybe some sort of ability to use the str bonus from a Lance even if the unit doesn't charge.


Martial Prowess(x): At the beginning of a combat, on a turn in which the unit with Martial Prowess did not charge, the unit may roll a D6. If the roll is x or higher, the unit may gain the strength bonus from their lances as if they had charged this turn.

Knights Errant have Martial Prowess(6+)

KotR, Pegasus knights, and Questing Knights have Martial Prowess(5+)

Grail Knights have Martial Prowess(4+)

Heroes and Lords all have Martial Prowess(5+)


Maybe have a Vow that lets the unit the guy is in reroll their Martial Prowess roll.

 akaean wrote:

ruminator wrote:There needs to be more differential between the 4 knight units - both in looks and utility.

Also I think the Grail Relaquie should get a huge massive model and kit, and change its rules. Make it similar to the Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace and have it be pushed by the Battle Pilgrims. Then just give it an Aura, perhaps a 12 inch bubble of Hatred and Blessing Save +1? Sort of a Giant portable alter to the Lady and the Glory of Bretonnia... whats not to love?

I think the Grail Reliquae's fluff needs to be rethought completely or removed it from the book. It makes no sense to me, how do the battle pilgrims not get slaughtered the moment the Knights see them parading around with a dead Grail Knight's body.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

I think the Grail Reliquae's fluff needs to be rethought completely or removed it from the book. It makes no sense to me, how do the battle pilgrims not get slaughtered the moment the Knights see them parading around with a dead Grail Knight's body.

Thats my problem with it as well personally. I think an alter to the lady, like a temple on wheels would be a far more reasonable idea. Because yea, the current Grail Relaque model is just kinda creepy, Although I do like the actual Battle Pilgrim models. I mean it could be anything but a dead body. a chest full of relics, an alter to the lady, anything!

EDIT: Also a 12 inch bubble would be rediculous. a 6 inch bubble seems like it would be reasonable. Or at least bring it in line with Empire stuff like that.

I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

baritowned wrote:
I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

Except the army theme is more Medieval France in the old dark ages.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

baritowned wrote:
I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

Except the army theme is more Medieval France in the old dark ages.

Aside from the names, not really. Brettonia is most heavily Arthurian legend personified with generic Chivalric themes thrown in.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

baritowned wrote:
I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

Except the army theme is more Medieval France in the old dark ages.

Aside from the names, not really. Brettonia is most heavily Arthurian legend personified with generic Chivalric themes thrown in.

Except not really as well, the only major Arthurian connections are the grail knights, and those of the Spellcasters. The lore is more based around High Middle age France that isn't based around the grail quest (Course you could probably say British as well) Though it seems more French based around the period of the Carolingian era

I'd say take a lot of design inspiration from crusades era literature, arthurian legends, and maybe some of the japanese/samurai stories.

I'd add mid tier unit of infantry, footmen, squires, dismounted knights, etc. or armored sword and board guys of some kind.

peasants with bows in ridiculous numbers, peasants with rabble weaponry as well should be avail as well, but with really REALLY crappy Ld, unless accompanied. (your horde units)

no mounted commoners, period.

knights errant can still do the charge thing, give em kind of like a space wolf blood claws bezerk charge
knights of the realm can customize equipment in unit, lances v. sword and board v. spears or something.
questing knights two handers
grail knights - jesus

peg knights can be monstrous flying cav. (does that exist?)
unicorns or holy destries with lance infantry can be monstrous cav.

need their own magic style. I think blessings and faith based stuff that can buff the army, but in different ways... faith for commoners and peasants - make em stubborn, fearless, zealous, etc.
knights can get physical manifestation of favor, invulns, increase in strength, toughness, speed,

someone needs a dragon mount, like a "good" dragon.

barring that louis' pet needs to get bigger and meaner looking. Maybe a fountain statute of the lady as popemobile.

that's my three cents.

 akaean wrote:
I think an alter to the lady, like a temple on wheels would be a far more reasonable idea. Because yea, the current Grail Relaque model is just kinda creepy.

Ehhhhh, another wagon alter is not really necessary. I think Brets need more development as their own thing rather than giving them stuff other factions already have. The Grail Reliquae is a great example of something that is starkly Bretonnian. Yeah, it's creepy as hell -- from the Empire's POV. Brets should be "weird" from the Empire's POV. I think this is exactly what keeps Brets from being updated: what do you give them that the Empire doesn't already have?

That is a loaded question, because Empire already almost has everything. The whole of empire fluff is a mix between steam punk, high fanstasy, and renesaince technology. Its one of the most diverse books out there.

What Brets have that Empire doesn't have is the Overall Aethetic, and a focus on a subset of units, namely heavy cav. We have rules and abilities that make Heavy Cav viable, in a way other books are unable to do, and we have the widest selection of heavy cav around. Empire still has Heavy Cav, and yes Empire can even focus on a cav list, but that doesn't mean it will look like a Bretonnian Army, or play like one.

Trying to come up with something that Empire doesn't already have is like the Southpark episode where Butters is trying to do something that wasn't done on the Simpsons. The problem is that Empire has done very nearly everything, including units like Demigryph knights which would should have been Bretonnian instead of Empire.

What we need to think about is how can we take something which has been done (lets face it most everything has been done already by at least several books), and make them uniquely Bretonnian.

a Wagon Alter is a fine idea, as long as it is uniquely bretonnia aethetically and rules wise. Its a unit type Bretonnia doesn't have any of, and is fairly common, ranging from Corpse Carts, Warshrines, etc.

Same with Chariots, which can be very knightly.

I am saying this tongue-in-cheek. Maybe Bretonnians could be transformed into the equivalent of Grey Knights in 40k. Before hate mail pours into my inbox, let me explain:
GK has 6 variety of Grey Knights in current codex: four in power armor (purgation, purifiers, and purifiers, along with the strike squads)and two in terminator armor (terminators, and the paladins). They can easily translate to Bretonnian Knights. 4 with the Knightly virtue (some sort of young knights in the back lines tending to the artillery, knights blessed with fire, Pegasus Knights, and Kotr), 1 with the questing vow, and 1 with the grail vow.
Henchmen (40k)=peasants (whfb)
I read the fluff in the Wood elf army book, and it seems that the Lady is much more than just another spirit. With her help the Bretonnians with the WE drove back the greenskins. Maybe in this capacity, she maybe one of the "Old Ones" worshiped by the Lizardmen? If this is the case, her intervention is part of their will to drive back Chaos invading from the North.
She probably graced the Bretonnians to engineer them into a anti-Chaos people. Thus, she only chooses the most worthy to be her champions (Grail Knights=40k Paladins).
To make it more medieval-ly, I would throw in there something like the lost heir of Bretonnia is actually of the blood of Guilles. You know, all Tudor-like.
The Robin Hood idea also works. The inquisitors, Coteaz in particular, loves henchmen.
We don't need monstrous mounts, we slay them. However, imagine the base of VC's Coven Throne...But less udead-y, and more heroic. Instead of a palanquin to carry the Lord, The Lord is either on the tip, or at the back commanding the charge.
Artillery-wise, why not Naptha launchers? Ancient form of napalm used in the crusades. Fire being symbolic of purity, and purification. And, because they are launchers, they are not bows, and may not kill directly, but through the effect. It can also provide board control, blocking certain areas, or risk the flames.
Anyway, that's how I would rework them.

As a Bretonnian collector and player I would say (and in no particular order)

Foot knights
Peasant Levies
Slightly stronger men at arms
Archer wedges
Access to more artillery
Heroes with some personality (like Bertrand the Brigand)
Get rid of unit size restrictions on knights (limited to 3-15 at the moment).

I would not like to see Bretonnia just getting a whole bunch of new monsters. Of course anything can be made to 'fit' the game - it is GW's game after all - but I would like to see Bretonnia not become a second Empire.

I think that a unit of battle nuns would be fun. I imagine there must be a lot of Bretonnian widows kicking about. Maybe they join convents and then rally round to defend whatever village/castle needs defending (while the local knight is away).

Outlaws, a unit "green knights" (or 1-2 as rare choices), also, why not naiads? (Water-spirits). That would be similar to the wood elves and dryads, but add a further magical element to the army.

teddet wrote:
I think that a unit of battle nuns would be fun. I imagine there must be a lot of Bretonnian widows kicking about. Maybe they join convents and then rally round to defend whatever village/castle needs defending (while the local knight is away).

Man, I'd be a bit peeved if Brets got Warrior Nuns and Empire still doesn't have the Sisters of Sigmar as a unit.

 Platuan4th wrote:


Man, I'd be a bit peeved if Brets got Warrior Nuns and Empire still doesn't have the Sisters of Sigmar as a unit.

But can't the sisters of sigmar just be greatswords? That seems like a very easy fix to me -- and led by a warrior-priestess.

I think it would be fun (and fluffy) if they fought with "spears" that are actually the lances that their husbands left behind when they went off to quest.

Given that they got a Trebuchet last time around, I don't think a Ballista of some description is too much of a leap.



The real bind is monstrous cavalry. But as others have noted they're kind of there already with Pegasus Knights and Hippogryphs.

Just so long as they dont start rocking Knights Templar and Knights Hospitalier or some other nonsense...

I just wanted to say that anyone who thinks Bretonnia is not based 99% on France needs to look at a map of Bretonnia, then a map of France. The only connections to England (besides the name, I guess) are the grail references and the fact that the king is basically Richard the Lionheart. And that's not saying a lot, considering Richard was a french-speaking frenchman and the modern Arthurian legend comes from Le Mort d'Arthur, not from british mythology. I suppose you could call longbowmen an England reference. But really, Bretonnia is probably the straightest rip from history in Warhammer Fantasy.

the color purple wrote:
I just wanted to say that anyone who thinks Bretonnia is not based 99% on France needs to look at a map of Bretonnia, then a map of France. The only connections to England (besides the name, I guess) are the grail references and the fact that the king is basically Richard the Lionheart. And that's not saying a lot, considering Richard was a french-speaking frenchman and the modern Arthurian legend comes from Le Mort d'Arthur, not from british mythology. I suppose you could call longbowmen an England reference. But really, Bretonnia is probably the straightest rip from history in Warhammer Fantasy.

It seems to be a mix of both that people try to categorize as one or the other.

I would add the following to the already existing rules

+ Bring Magic Items in line with 8th (skimming most of them out)

+ Keep Virtues

+ Add a Siege Knights: A unit of Heavily armored Knights on foot they would be modeled to resemble Knights in very oversized armor that would produce a 4+ like Full Plate however due to Bretonnia not having the full knowledge of Full Plate it would give them Move 3" However I would give them the same stats as Knights of The Realm and the ability to reroll hits when within a building. Options for Sword and Shield, or Halberd and Shield.

+ Trebuchet variant with fire (already rumored)

+ Possible Knight wide special rule that raises their WS against enemy models with a higher base strength than them.

+ Questing Knights deserve some sort of boost possibly a sort of On The Quest Special Rule giving them the ability to ignore hit modifiers like the mark of nurgle or Glittering Scales, also drop them in points by 2 and I think they would then be used.

+ All peasant units stay the same except for the Grail Reliqaue which should drop to 110 points for the base stuff and give all peasant units within 6" +1 to Leadership Tests.

+ Knights Errant drop to 18 points

+ Knights of the Realm stay the same

+ Grail Knights gain +2 to their WS and gain Heroic Killing Blow.

+ New Battering Ram Unit: A moving Warmachine that works as a Bolt Thrower in Close Combat.

+ No Monsters just keep us with the ones we have.

That is what I would want.

What about giving all Knights Hatred: Monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry, Monstrous Beasts, and Monsters?

And HKB on Grail Knights: No, just no. They would have to be at least 60 pts each to get that.

lol maybe HKB is a bit far but I think making them the bane of all monsters a good idea, or giving them some sort of better defensive buff making them harder to kill.

A 6+ ward naturally, +1 if they pray, and another +1 if fighting anything with Monster or Monstrous in its unit type.

Pretty much agree with them getting some form of Heavy Infantry. I would just love to see GW come out with some human knights on foot with different weapon options. I still have some old Retainers and Knights on Foot with Halberds somewhere that might not mind seeing the light of day.

Also like the idea of bringing in a unit like Brigands or resurrecting old units like Squires, Retainers, etc.

Since armies seem to be getting new Hero/Lord options, maybe they will bring in someone like a Warden, a Huntsman, maybe a Hero Grail Knight.

I also agree with letting the Bretonnian characters and the top knights being a little better then regular humans to help differentiate more from the rest of the humans.

I actually like the idea of Bretonnians. The ability to run a full mounted army is nice and provides them with a unique feel. It seems that what Bretonnia needs is mostly point changes and some stat line rework.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of peasant horde option. cheap, low to no armor humans that can be horded out.

Also more mounted options. Unicorns, Hippogryphs, light cavalry, heavy cavalry, maybe even a dragon option.

Foot knights also sound like a nice idea. Something really tough but isn't terribly fast to represent trying to move in heavy armor. Like Movement 3 but a 2+ armor save standard.

I like the idea of a unit of huntsmen, with their war-hounds. I totally think that could fit

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I like the idea of a unit of huntsmen, with their war-hounds. I totally think that could fit

Kinda a good call - say like 5 hunting dogs with a mounted character leader or something?

 Micky wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I like the idea of a unit of huntsmen, with their war-hounds. I totally think that could fit

Kinda a good call - say like 5 hunting dogs with a mounted character leader or something?

Only if the hunting dogs are foxhounds and/or beagles.

Such an interesting topic.

From an 8th edition standpoint, they need a more elite infantry unit. A unit of knights on foot wearing full plate would be cool and fun to model. A musician with a pair of coconuts comes to mind.

Points need to be tweaked to allow more knights to get onto the table.

Reworking the lance formation also needs to be done. Now that two full ranks get to attack, it is much less effective using such a small frontage, and also cumbersome.

I would like to see a unique lore for the army, "Lore of the Lake" or something along those lines that largely protects the army or makes them more resilient, especially to ranged attacks.

Overall, just a few tweaks here and there will help the Bretts go a long way.

 timofeo wrote:
I would add the following to the already existing rules

+ Bring Magic Items in line with 8th (skimming most of them out)

+ Keep Virtues

+ Add a Siege Knights: A unit of Heavily armored Knights on foot they would be modeled to resemble Knights in very oversized armor that would produce a 4+ like Full Plate however due to Bretonnia not having the full knowledge of Full Plate it would give them Move 3" However I would give them the same stats as Knights of The Realm and the ability to reroll hits when within a building. Options for Sword and Shield, or Halberd and Shield.

+ Trebuchet variant with fire (already rumored)

+ Possible Knight wide special rule that raises their WS against enemy models with a higher base strength than them.

+ Questing Knights deserve some sort of boost possibly a sort of On The Quest Special Rule giving them the ability to ignore hit modifiers like the mark of nurgle or Glittering Scales, also drop them in points by 2 and I think they would then be used.

+ All peasant units stay the same except for the Grail Reliqaue which should drop to 110 points for the base stuff and give all peasant units within 6" +1 to Leadership Tests.

+ Knights Errant drop to 18 points

+ Knights of the Realm stay the same

+ Grail Knights gain +2 to their WS and gain Heroic Killing Blow.

+ New Battering Ram Unit: A moving Warmachine that works as a Bolt Thrower in Close Combat.

+ No Monsters just keep us with the ones we have.
That is what I would want.

Its an interesting idea and I can see some of these possibly making the final cut, however if the new army books have shown me anything, it is that for the most part, every army has become a lot more balanced, but at the same time keeping there identity to what kind of race they are in the Warhammer World. As for the Bretonnians themselves, this is how I see they should tweak the Bretonnia army:

*Lords and Paladins remain the same points and stats, however if they are not riding a Pegasus or a Hippogryph, they automatically ride a Barded Bretonnian Steed for free.

* Fix the Magic Items to go along with 8th edition, and keep the Virtues, possibly removing some of the older, useless ones or adding some new virtues.

* New Bretonnia Magic for the army, such as the Lore of the Lady or something similar.

* For our Core Troops, Knights Errant go down in points, with Knights of the Realm staying the same. Could probably see Knights of the Realm going either up or down in points in the new book, but then again since Bretonnia is really the only one, true Cavalry-Heavy army in the game, I could see them making changes which could allow them to run more knights on the table. And this is unlikely, however the other Bretonnia player at my store thinks Knights of the Realm should be S4 base, as he argues that Knights are far better trained and stronger then most standard troops of other armies.

*Men-at-Arms, if they are still WS2 in the new book, should go down a point or two as they aren't worth 5 points a model with that, but would be fine if they where to become WS3. Also, I could see them being able to take HW and shields, as according to the rumors, they might just change the Grail Reliqaue to a peasant standard bearer of sorts or make the Grail Reliquea to something related to the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace kit that gives a boost to the entire Bretonnia army.

*Archers are fine the way they are, no need for a point or rule change, and still have access to flaming arrows.

*Pegasus Knights remain the same, with only the possible change I can see coming from either some point changes or maybe some rules changes, such as removing the 0-1 rule they currently have. Also, since these guys are our Monstrous Cavalry unit, I doubt Bretonnia would get a 2nd one.

*Questing Knights get a Plastic Kit, and I think they should get some special rules like the Maneaters do in the Ogre Kingdoms book. This I feel fits with the Questing Knights fluff, as since they are traveling around all of the time, they are able to hone there skills to the max, as well as acquire some unique ones during there travels in search of the grail. Also think they should get a rule where they strike at Initiative Order with there GW's, which isnt overpowered as there is a lot of stuff in the game that would go first before they would even attack most of the time, with only Dwarfs, Ogres, and some Lizardmen units really being affected from this.

*Grail Knights drop to 35 points per model, and since they are literally living Saints and from reading the Bretonnia book, either increase there toughness, give them a 5+ ward save all of the time or make them harder to hit in CC. Might seem a bit over the top, however Grail Knights are supposed to be the greatest Knights in the Old World, however they are still very similar to a standard Knight of the Realm. Not sure what else they could do for these guys but I expect a change to make them live up to there elite status.

*Trebuchet remains the same, with them being allowed to shoot flaming ammunition (per rumors), and adding a new War-Machine to the Bretonnia arsenal, such as a Batista or maybe that War-Machine from the Messenger that shoots hundreds of Arrows all at once (think its called a Porcupine of something).

*New units for the Bretonnia army, could see something along the line of Knights on Foot, as well as maybe a unit of Ethereal Knights, as that to would fit into the Bretonnia Lore.

*Along with this, I expect the usual changes in terms of being able to have more Special Character Choices, as well as upgrades to the current Bretonnia Special characters, [particularly the King, as at the moment he is probably one of the worse characters in the game in terms of point cost and rules.

*Also, I could see changes to the lance, as though it is nice to be able to get multiple lances into a horde unit on the charge, what hurts it is the lack of staying power we have in it in terms of ranks, so I wouldnt be surprised if some changes where made. According to rumors, they might make Bretonnia Knights have the Monstrous Cavalry rule, which would be interesting.

 timofeo wrote:


+ Grail Knights gain +2 to their WS and gain Heroic Killing Blow.

No....just no. WS 7 heroic killing blow would make them better than allot of hero choices (Like, you know, a bretonnian paladin) . Grail knights are in need of a mild buff to bring them in line with the fluff/ other armies elite super bad-ass dudes, but that's a lil much.

For me;

-Make men at arms either cheaper or WS3.

-Some kind of buff alter (Re-tool the grail relique?)

Remove compulsory BSB. I would take one anyway but I resent being forced.

- Include horses in paladin/lord costs. It's a nitpic, and I know why they are not included (Virtue of empathy) but I just get annoyed when writing lists and having to ignore the dissapointment I get after the 2 seconds I think my characters are cheaper than they are

Also, make the inevitable (and necessary) trebuchet nerf gentle......like, use lube or something.

T4 for the Grail Knights would do nicely.

In spite of some of my earlier posts, I think Bretonnia really only needs some tweaking and not a huge overhaul. A slight decrease in the point cost of Knights, WS 3 on Men-At-Arms, an infantry Knight unit, maybe a MC unit (I favor female knights on Unicorns myself, just don't put breasts on their breastplates, that's a HORRIBLE energy trap)...

And a Errata that takes Steadfast away from disrupted units so a flanking charge MEANS something.

 Vulcan wrote:
.. female knights on Unicorns..

That could be AMAZING if done right.

Naiads sounds good.

Female knights?

Hell no, call me sexist or whatever but Bretonnia is like the knight in shining armour saves the damsel in distress army.

MarsNZ wrote:
Female knights?

Hell no, call me sexist or whatever but Bretonnia is like the knight in shining armour saves the damsel in distress army.

Yes but I think it is fairly well established that the damsels and enchantresses that work for the Lady of the Lake are above that. They don't need men offering them a hand to mount their horses and they *gasp* ride with one leg on either side of the horse and let men see their ankles if they need to go fast. Female knights could be an extension of that. An oddity, but one that is accepted because the Lady of the Lake said so.

Agree to disagree then, Prophetess' are tough, sure, doesn't qualify them for knighthood. I'd also cringe to see 'because the Lady said so' as a reason for their introduction.

 jonolikespie wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Female knights?

Hell no, call me sexist or whatever but Bretonnia is like the knight in shining armour saves the damsel in distress army.

Yes but I think it is fairly well established that the damsels and enchantresses that work for the Lady of the Lake are above that. They don't need men offering them a hand to mount their horses and they *gasp* ride with one leg on either side of the horse and let men see their ankles if they need to go fast. Female knights could be an extension of that. An oddity, but one that is accepted because the Lady of the Lake said so.

Except that the Damsels and Enchantress come from the lady to begin with. They were stolen children taught the ways of magic to begin with, to push them away would be blasphemy.

There's nothing to be said, unless she kicks up her child stealing and starts raising magical female knights, this won't happen, and probably shouldn't happen.

I wouldn't mind a unit of priestess novitiates though, or maybe making a priestess a unit upgrade. Also I think they should make the red duke a playable character, give something dark to the wee brets

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
I wouldn't mind a unit of priestess novitiates though, or maybe making a priestess a unit upgrade. Also I think they should make the red duke a playable character, give something dark to the wee brets

You mean give the Brettonia Vampire Counts? I'm not sure it'd work..but damn do I want something besides the Von Carsteins for once.

Anything to bring back characters from different bloodlines

I love my knights and scruby peasant mob that causes terror(insert evil laugh),,,, but one thing I would love to see changed is to allow the magical flying Pegasus to take magical banners.....seriously I do not understand why they can't.

 jonolikespie wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Female knights?

Hell no, call me sexist or whatever but Bretonnia is like the knight in shining armour saves the damsel in distress army.

Yes but I think it is fairly well established that the damsels and enchantresses that work for the Lady of the Lake are above that. They don't need men offering them a hand to mount their horses and they *gasp* ride with one leg on either side of the horse and let men see their ankles if they need to go fast. Female knights could be an extension of that. An oddity, but one that is accepted because the Lady of the Lake said so.

Damsels and Prophetesses are the women WITH MAGICAL TALENT in Bretonnia. Not 'all women of noble birth.' I can see preccocious noble's daughters wanting to follow in Repanse de Lyoness' footsteps and become knights themselves, meeting resistance from the reactionaries, and striking a bargan - if they can tame a unicorn to be their steed, they will be knighted...

They need some knights that say "ni" and a killer rabit monstrous beast.

wubs23 wrote:
They need some knights that say "ni" and a killer rabit monstrous beast.

Overused, what they really need is knights armed with herrings.

Female knights could well work. It would mostly depend on how the models looked, which could go either way. I think that the Brets also could do with a big kit - basically, WFB is going towards Mx and Monsters as the selling point, and Bretonnia currently lacks that. Some humungous flying beastie would be logical, but a bit hard to fit into the fluff perhaps.

I just read through the Bretonnia army book the other day, and I love how close they are to medieval knights and chivalry.

But I'm a little concerned. As far as I know they haven't been updated in 9 years? Are they going to be dropped?

I was thinking of proxying them with Orks. Orkish boar knights on a sacred quest or what have you. Naturally I'd write up special rules for them for those players happy to play with such rules, but then just field them either as a very boar boy heavy Ork force or as Bretonnians the rest of the time

Female Knights are distinctly un-Bretonnian, although apparently common enough that once per year a dead knight is found to be a woman tired of living a comfortable live.

As for them being scrapped, i doubt it very much. DE were stuck in 3rd edition for 12 years. A Bretonnian army is still balanced and preforms well even under the current rules.

There's definitely a female Knight in the older Bret books and in some of the Campaign books as a special character.

 John Rainbow wrote:
There's definitely a female Knight in the older Bret books and in some of the Campaign books as a special character.

Indeed there was...

Repanse De Lyonesse - Warhammer's Joan of Arc

Ah, and there she is sports fans.

Such a typical old GW pose - standing still, holding sword aloft in vaguely dramatic fashion.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Such a typical old GW pose - standing still, holding sword aloft in vaguely dramatic fashion.

Even her horse looks embarrassed at this, as it casts its eyes downward shamefully...

And note: a NORMAL breastplate. Not some form-fitted steel lingerie with an enourmous energy trap in the center right over the heart...