Crush is a focused witchfire ability with a range of 18". Roll 2d6. The target suffers a hit equal to the result, so if you roll a 12 you can still instant death tyranid MC?
I assume thats a yes.

Well page 2 says that characteristics (save for attacks and wounds) cannot go above 10, so I would take that as given for all characteristics of models, weapons, psychic powers etc.

So for me the answer is no to S12.

Also the wording of Crush implies that an 11 or 12 merely wounds automatically, as it does not cause a hit with that strength.

Jangustus wrote:
Well page 2 says that characteristics (save for attacks and wounds) cannot go above 10, so I would take that as given for all characteristics of models, weapons, psychic powers etc.

So for me the answer is no to S12.

Also the wording of Crush implies that an 11 or 12 merely wounds automatically, as it does not cause a hit with that strength.

Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.

Also the wording of the rule is pretty clear, the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6 roll (the part in parentheses does not change the strength of the hit)

40k-noob wrote:
Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.
Also the wording of the rule is pretty clear, the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6 roll (the part in parentheses does not change the strength of the hit)

The first argument here is untrue. Page 2 (or 3) doesn't say anything about going under 0 or over 10 - it says "All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10." This means we aren't ever given permission for characteristics to go outside the scale, unless specifically stated (I believe the Doom of Malantai says it can, but that's a case of codex overriding rulebook).

However, page 14 then refers to weapons having a Strength "characteristic", and page 50 repeats that it'll be between 1-10 (as there would be no point in resolving damage of a S0 weapon). As it's a characteristic, the rules from pages 2 and 3 have to apply, otherwise we have no basis for how to apply it. The same goes for psychic powers, as they state to treat the powers as shooting attacks with the exceptions given in the Psyker rules. If it's not a characteristic, how do you use the Strength value?

Attacks has permission to go above 10, wounds too iirc in the brb.
They are the exceptions.

 Super Ready wrote:
I believe the Doom of Malantai says it can, but that's a case of codex overriding rulebook

Doom's special rule specifically says he is capped at 10.

Thanks, don't know why I couldn't see it earlier but it's under "Modifiers".

 Super Ready wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.
Also the wording of the rule is pretty clear, the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6 roll (the part in parentheses does not change the strength of the hit)

The first argument here is untrue. Page 2 (or 3) doesn't say anything about going under 0 or over 10 - it says "All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10." This means we aren't ever given permission for characteristics to go outside the scale, unless specifically stated (I believe the Doom of Malantai says it can, but that's a case of codex overriding rulebook).

However, page 14 then refers to weapons having a Strength "characteristic", and page 50 repeats that it'll be between 1-10 (as there would be no point in resolving damage of a S0 weapon). As it's a characteristic, the rules from pages 2 and 3 have to apply, otherwise we have no basis for how to apply it. The same goes for psychic powers, as they state to treat the powers as shooting attacks with the exceptions given in the Psyker rules. If it's not a characteristic, how do you use the Strength value?

I suggest you re-read the pages 2-3.

Please explain how page is NOT referring to the characteristics of Models and Units?

I am curious how this "Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units." is untrue, when the heading of the section is "Models & Units"

I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

Plus if a psychic power is not considered a weapon, you can not add its Str to the D6 roll when you roll for armor pen.

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and compare the weapon's Strength, comparing this total with the Armour value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle" P. 73

There is only an allowance for weapons to add their Str to the D6 roll.

Good luck glancing anything with just a D6...

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

So how do you know what you need to roll to wound without referencing Strength?

40k-noob wrote:
It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

So the only way to wound with it is by rolling an 11 or 12 and it'll never ID anything.
Cool story bro.

40k-noob, how about addressing the point I made.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Plus if a psychic power is not considered a weapon, you can not add its Str to the D6 roll when you roll for armor pen.

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and compare the weapon's Strength, comparing this total with the Armour value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle" P. 76

There is only an allowance for weapons to add their Str to the D6 roll.

Good luck glancing anything with just a D6...

The rules for Crush give you permission to use the Strength of 2D6 and a vehicle, if it is the target of Crush, suffers a hit with a Strength equal to that roll.

Page 76 is for Assaulting a Vehicle. Crush is a Witchfire power so it follows the rules for Shooting not Assaults, I assume you meant pg 73.

But you are right, there is only an allowance for weapons to add a D6 to the AP roll. Guess GW needs to define what exactly psychic powers are now dont they.

guess you better hope for an 11 or 12 roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

So how do you know what you need to roll to wound without referencing Strength?

I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

P.S. yes Page 73 fixed my post.

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

P.S. yes Page 73 fixed my post.

I said you were right, didn't I? Perhaps you missed that after you read what you wanted to read.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

I said you were right, didn't I? Perhaps you missed that after you read what you wanted to read.

I was actually commenting on this part of your post:

guess you better hope for an 11 or 12 roll.

Rolling an 11 or 12 still does nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

You reference the Strength value not the definition. It is not necessary to define what Strength is, only the numeric value of Strength is needed.


The definition of Strength as defined on Page 2 is fluff. Or are you really trying to say that Strength of Crush is to be defined as this?

"Strength gives a measure of how physically mighty a warrior is. An exceptionally puny creature might have a Strength of 1, while a Tyranid Carnifex has Strength 9. Men have Strength 3"

Is Crush a Warrior with variable Strength?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

I said you were right, didn't I? Perhaps you missed that after you read what you wanted to read.

I was actually commenting on this part of your post:

guess you better hope for an 11 or 12 roll.

Rolling an 11 or 12 still does nothing.

an 11 or 12 grants an automatic Penetrating hit .
Penetrating hits = the vehicle loses a Hull point and you roll on the Damage table.

How does that do nothing?

Right, one auto pen, but not because it is Str 11 or 12, Sorry if I did not make that clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, one auto pen, but not because it is Str 11 or 12, Sorry if I did not make that clear.

No worries, I should have added that 11-12 gives the auto pen.

Can't beats can. You cannot take a S11 or S12 hit. S10 is the best you can do. Sorry.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

You reference the Strength value not the definition. It is not necessary to define what Strength is, only the numeric value of Strength is needed.


The definition of Strength as defined on Page 2 is fluff. Or are you really trying to say that Strength of Crush is to be defined as this?

"Strength gives a measure of how physically mighty a warrior is. An exceptionally puny creature might have a Strength of 1, while a Tyranid Carnifex has Strength 9. Men have Strength 3"

Is Crush a Warrior with variable Strength?

Are you purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make?
Strength is a Characteristic, agreed?
Characteristics have values ranging from 0 to 10, agreed?

If you disagree on the first point, then what is it? Please cite what rules you're using to define what Strength is in the context of Crush.
If you disagree on the second point, please explain why.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

You reference the Strength value not the definition. It is not necessary to define what Strength is, only the numeric value of Strength is needed.


The definition of Strength as defined on Page 2 is fluff. Or are you really trying to say that Strength of Crush is to be defined as this?

"Strength gives a measure of how physically mighty a warrior is. An exceptionally puny creature might have a Strength of 1, while a Tyranid Carnifex has Strength 9. Men have Strength 3"

Is Crush a Warrior with variable Strength?

Are you purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make?
Strength is a Characteristic, agreed?
Characteristics have values ranging from 0 to 10, agreed?

If you disagree on the first point, then what is it? Please cite what rules you're using to define what Strength is in the context of Crush.
If you disagree on the second point, please explain why.

Are you purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make? No I am not trying to ignore your point, but if you do not make your point clearly then am i suppose to guess what your point is?
Strength is a Characteristic, agreed? Sure why not.
Characteristics have values ranging from 0 to 10, agreed? Only those applied to models and units, in those cases, the pages 2/3 are clear, yes they are limited to 0-10.

If you disagree on the second point, please explain why. Because it is pretty clear that Crush is not a model nor a unit and therefor the rules for Characteristic limits that apply to Models and Units have no effect on Crush



Edit: Whoa, first font color choice was not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BolterUnlimited wrote:
Can't beats can. You cannot take a S11 or S12 hit. S10 is the best you can do. Sorry.

Actually in this case, everything is a "can't" unless the rulebook says you can, permissive rules and all that.

So in this case, with the rules for Crush being written as they are, they have a clear, yes you can.

Cite the rules you're using to describe non-model characteristics please.
Since the only place Strength is described is as a model characteristic all characteristics must be based off of those rules. That or there is literally no ability to wound outside of CC.

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite the rules you're using to describe non-model characteristics please.
Since the only place Strength is described is as a model characteristic all characteristics must be based off of those rules. That or there is literally no ability to wound outside of CC.

What do you mean "describe" non-model characteristics?

I am not sure what you are getting at.

He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

And what can you use that value for?
That's what I mean by describe.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

But you cant use that value for anything as you do not know what strength means...

They could put the meaning of stats in the skimmer section and they would still apply to everything with stats.

 Abandon wrote:
They could put the meaning of stats in the skimmer section and they would still apply to everything with stats.

Right, now look at what he is claiming.

40k-noob wrote:
Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.

40k-noob wrote:
Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

He is using the rules for Strength, but not allowing the definition from Page 2...

I say let him have the UberS12Crush. How much worse than a S10 Railgun,etc is it really? So what if it has a chance to ID some of the toughest creatures(riptide? most certainly) but hey, avoid that unti if your scared......otherwise just kill the damn thing lol

I know DR, read the whole thing. Right there with ya this time

Personal note: I actually agree with you and rigeld2 most of the time. Your just quick to respond and generally I don't say anything unless their is something to add.

Oh and Wolfnid about your sig, everything will live just fine in the hive fleets cultured biomass so I really don't know what everyone's afraid of.

Treat it like a weapon. If I fire a Demolisher (Space Marines Vindicator) and something gives me a +1 S, would you let me take a S11 hit onto your stuff?

Ahh here comes the cheering section...

Well, I have answered your questions.
How about you answer some of mine.

Where in the BRB does it limit the strength of a psychic power from 0-10? If you can show me that page number, section I will gladly say you are right.

40k-noob wrote:
.
Where in the BRB does it limit the strength of a psychic power from 0-10? If you can show me that page number, section I will gladly say you are right.

Where is Str 11 on the wound chart?

40k-noob wrote:Ahh here comes the cheering section...

Well, I have answered your questions.

No, you haven't.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

And what can you use that value for?
That's what I mean by describe.

Page 50 talks about Weapon Profiles.

BRB wrote:If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon.

If you're about to argue that psychic powers don't follow that requirement because they aren't weapons, don't. If you pretend they aren't weapons they can't ever roll to wound.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
.
Where in the BRB does it limit the strength of a psychic power from 0-10? If you can show me that page number, section I will gladly say you are right.

Where is Str 11 on the wound chart?

Not needed. You wound automatically on a roll of 11-12


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:Ahh here comes the cheering section...

Well, I have answered your questions.

No, you haven't.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.

if that is what he means, that is fine. I dont care what Strength "means" I just care that it has a value.

And what can you use that value for?
That's what I mean by describe.

Page 50 talks about Weapon Profiles.

BRB wrote:If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon.

If you're about to argue that psychic powers don't follow that requirement because they aren't weapons, don't. If you pretend they aren't weapons they can't ever roll to wound.

I haven't answered your questions? All these posts andd none of them are answers to questions?
Guess this post doesn't count either then.

as for page 50, if you are telling me what I can or can't argue, then there is no point in continuing.

Congrats. You win.

Yes, Crush is obviously a psychic shooting attack. Psychic Shooting Attacks are treated exactly like weapons.

40k-noob wrote:
I haven't answered your questions? All these posts andd none of them are answers to questions?
Guess this post doesn't count either then.

Please quote where you answered what I asked.

as for page 50, if you are telling me what I can or can't argue, then there is no point in continuing.

Congrats. You win.

I didn't say you couldn't argue it, I explained the consequences of doing so.

After reading the crush spell there is no permission there to go above a ten. It tells you specifically what happens when an 11 or 12 is rolled. Trying to say its a str 12 hit is simply untrue. No characteristic is ever allowed above a 10. Just auto wound in the case of a wounds bearing model or auto pen in the case of a vehicle. In either case however you get an additional d6 for the ap value of the shot.

40K-Noob:

Bottom line upfront; you can argue this all day on here if you like but in the real world, say in a friendly game? I would pack up my models on the spot and never play you again for being a rule stretching, loop-hole exploiting, cheater... If you tried to do this during the tournament? I would cite you for cheating and have you removed from the brackets with no refund... you understand full well that you cannot go above strength 10 unless there is a rule that says you can, yet you are choosing to ignore that "Roll 2d6. The target suffers a hit equal to the result" doesnt say it causes instant death, doesnt result in anything but a wound. Now if you do acknowledge that it is a characteristic, which does cause instant death at double strength, you are admitting that the attack has a strength characteristic and either way you are shooting yourself in the foot. so which is it?

Is it a strength 11-12 attack that doesnt cause instant death because its not a characteristic? or is it a charcteristic based attack that cannot go higher than 10 that does cause instance death?

either way, your question has been answered and you have no further arguement

Bit fly off the handle there.

I think he's wrong, I'd call the TO over but it's not cheating to be wrong. I'd be a bit more watchful of what he's doing but not because I think he is cheating but because he may not know the rules or be confused on some of them.
Gamesmanship isn't just knowing the rules it's also playing well and being a good sportsman.

40k-noob, if you are about to enquire about a rule, please read the whole rule beforehand

BRB, Page 422 wrote:Crush is a focussed witchfi.re power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) wlth an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.

Bolded relevant bit, although Im pretty sure someone has already submitted this quote.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Bit fly off the handle there.

I think he's wrong, I'd call the TO over but it's not cheating to be wrong. I'd be a bit more watchful of what he's doing but not because I think he is cheating but because he may not know the rules or be confused on some of them.
Gamesmanship isn't just knowing the rules it's also playing well and being a good sportsman.

Not at all...

Its one thing to hide dice rolls, its another thing entirely when someone has been shown the rules, yet demands further proof... its like arguing with an American Tea Partier.
If you have been made aware of the rules, and then choose to play them incorrectly (40K-noob's approch to this makes me feel as though he'll read the correct rules and play them incorrectly) then I have no business playing you. We have rules for a reason and despite faqs and rulings found here that I despise, I adhere to them in my knowledge as best as possible...

I was under the impression gamesmenship and sportmanship were the same thing...

 IHateNids wrote:
40k-noob, if you are about to enquire about a rule, please read the whole rule beforehand

BRB, Page 422 wrote:Crush is a focussed witchfi.re power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) wlth an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.

Bolded relevant bit, although Im pretty sure someone has already submitted this quote.

Which has no effect on his argument.
Yes, it wounds automatically. But the wound must have a Strength associated with it, and the Strength is the result on 2d6.
Without the cap in place on page 50 and page 2, that Strength could reach 11 or 12 meaning it would ID many Monstrous Creatures.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Bit fly off the handle there.

I think he's wrong, I'd call the TO over but it's not cheating to be wrong. I'd be a bit more watchful of what he's doing but not because I think he is cheating but because he may not know the rules or be confused on some of them.
Gamesmanship isn't just knowing the rules it's also playing well and being a good sportsman.

Not at all...

Its one thing to hide dice rolls, its another thing entirely when someone has been shown the rules, yet demands further proof... its like arguing with an American Tea Partier.
If you have been made aware of the rules, and then choose to play them incorrectly (40K-noob's approch to this makes me feel as though he'll read the correct rules and play them incorrectly) then I have no business playing you. We have rules for a reason and despite faqs and rulings found here that I despise, I adhere to them in my knowledge as best as possible...

I was under the impression gamesmenship and sportmanship were the same thing...

Interesting analysis....

So let me gets this straight.

You read page 2 and in the second paragraph where it sets the limits of 0-10 for models and units, not for characteristics themselves but for the characteristics of models and units and that is is supposed to mean it also applies to psychic powers, which clearly are not models nor units.

And I am the one that reads the rules and chooses to play them incorrectly and thus a cheater?


oh and thanks for compliment (I like the Tea Party)

To me as a strick RAW, it looks like there is no way to ID a model with a roll of an 11 or 12, it's just a free wound.

40k-noob wrote:
And I am the one that reads the rules and chooses to play them incorrectly and thus a cheater?

Have an argument against page 50 applying?

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
40k-noob, if you are about to enquire about a rule, please read the whole rule beforehand

BRB, Page 422 wrote:Crush is a focussed witchfi.re power with a range of 18". Roll 2D6. The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) wlth an AP equal to the result of a separate D6 roll.

Bolded relevant bit, although Im pretty sure someone has already submitted this quote.

Which has no effect on his argument.
Yes, it wounds automatically. But the wound must have a Strength associated with it, and the Strength is the result on 2d6.
Without the cap in place on page 50 and page 2, that Strength could reach 11 or 12 meaning it would ID many Monstrous Creatures.

And that is why it is important. (not just MC, Destroyer Lords, Warboss on a bike, etc)

The cap on page 2 is for the characteristics of models and units not for anything else.

BRB page 2 wrote:
Warhammer 40,000 uses nine different characteristics to describe the various attributes of the different models. All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10. The odd characteristic out is Armour Save (Sv) which can run from 2+ through 0+ to - (for models with no Armour Save).

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rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
And I am the one that reads the rules and chooses to play them incorrectly and thus a cheater?

Have an argument against page 50 applying?

I have two arguments against this:

1. Crush does not have a fixed Strength, it is variable and is determined by the roll of 2D6
2. Crush is not a weapon but a psychic power. As noted by fact that BRB does not lists them in the "Weapons" section of any part of the BRB.

edit: spelling mistakes

Wait, so he is basing his argument on no cap for the S of PSAs?

thats a different kettle of fish then, I misinterpretted his point

Strength on page 50 is very very clear. What is there to debate here?

"If the weapon has a fixed Strength, i.e. a number between 1 and 10, this is the Strength of Attacks made with that weapon."
Crush has a fixed strength as soon as you roll it, 2D6 between 1-10 and for the other two results there is a specific rule for it.

you still havent answered my question...

it either has a strength of 11-12 with no instant death (since as you say it is not a characteristic, and only characteristics get instant according to rules as written), or it is just strength 10 (meaning it is a characteristic and as such causes instant... Im waiting for the answer because either way your arguement is nil and it cannot kill MC's either way...

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
you still havent answered my question...

it either has a strength of 11-12 with no instant death (since as you say it is not a characteristic, and only characteristics get instant according to rules as written), or it is just strength 10 (meaning it is a characteristic and as such causes instant... Im waiting for the answer because either way your arguement is nil and it cannot kill MC's either way...

I never said it didn't have a Characteristic. I even agreed with Rig that Strength is a Characteristic.

I disagree that the limit of 0-10 applies to psychic powers.

Are psychic powers weapons/ are they treated as weapons?
Do they count as firing an assault weapon unless otherwise stated?

It has too. Crush is a PSA, and SAs follow those rules...

/Thread

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Are psychic powers weapons/ are they treated as weapons?
Do they count as firing an assault weapon unless otherwise stated?

No, they are not weapons. They are in their own section outside of the Weapons section and not listed in any part of the book where weapons are also listed (i.e. summary)

Are they treated as weapons? If so I have not seen where it says that in the BRB.
If you have a page/section I can look at, and if it says that, I will admit I am wrong.

Only thing I have seen is that using a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon which is to say you can Assault in the Assault phase after using a Witchfire power.


edit: spelling

The rules on page 68 for witchfire.

 IHateNids wrote:
It has too. Crush is a PSA, and SAs follow those rules...

/Thread

Where in the Shooting rules or in the PSA rules does it limit the range of Characteristics from 0-10?

so are we just ignoring that it says Assault WEAPON? last I checked, weapons can never be higher than strength 10

Oh! So'll you'll let me make an S11 pumped Demolisher shot against you? Thank you kindly.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules on page 68 for witchfire.

That does not define a Psychic Power as a weapon nor does it say that they are treated as weapons.

It says that manifesting a witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon....

That means that the action of manifesting a witchifire is the counted as the same as the action of firing an assault weapon. Which would let you assault after manifesting one.
That is very different from saying that witchfires are "treated as assault weapons" or that a witchfire is an weapon


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BolterUnlimited wrote:
Oh! So'll you'll let me make an S11 pumped Demolisher shot against you? Thank you kindly.

You are welcome

BRB, Page 69, Paragraph 2: Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack

the bold part makes it follow shooting rules

 IHateNids wrote:
BRB, Page 69, Paragraph 2: Note that, as witchfire is a Shooting attack

the bold part makes it follow shooting rules

Yes but where in the Shooting Rules does it limit the characteristics to 0-10?

The bit that people have bneen quoting at you all thread...

40k-noob wrote:


Yes but where in the Shooting Rules does it limit the characteristics to 0-10?

Dont mind Noob, IHateNids...

he cant see the forest for the trees

40k-noob wrote:
Only thing I have seen is that using a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon which is to say you can Assault in the Assault phase after using a Witchfire power.

"counts as" must mean the same as "is". Therefore using a Witchfire is shooting an Assault Weapon.
Weapons are limited in STR from 1-10.

rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted and therefore not an Assault Weapon. It is still a shooting attack. In the rules for Crush we have a value for it's Strength characteristic; roll 2D6. Obviously I can get an 11 or 12. Fortunately they gave us a way to handle that without referring to the Strength/Toughness chart: they auto wound/pen.

So what do we have? We have a psychic power, that doesn't qualify as an Assault Weapon (due to being otherwise noted) however we are told on pg 69 exactly how to use it: roll to hit, saves can be taken in the same way as for any other shooting attack.. We also know how to shoot it because it is to be handled in the shooting phase using the shooting rules. Note that nothing within the shooting rules limits the weapons strength; which is meaningless anyway as Crush told us explicitly what to do for 11/12.

The Strength characteristic limiter on pg 2/3 doesn't apply as that entire section repeatedly discusses only a Model's 9 characteristics. Pg 14 highlights that strength in a weapons profile is not the same as the strength of the model further cementing the distinction (which doesn't matter anyway). Pg 50's limiter doesn't apply as, although it states "ie. 1 to 10)" Crush is not a "weapon" but rather a psychic shooting attack which did not meet the qualifications to be an assault weapon. The way we can shoot it is defined by the rest of the paragraphs on pg 69 and the normal shooting phase rules, so we don't even have to refer to most of the weapon rules/limitations anyway.

ID just requires Strength (doesn't qualify type: model characteristic, weapon profile, whatever) to be double toughness.

All of this means is that yes, you can ID a tyranid MC.

clively wrote:
rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted. In the rules for Crush we have a definition for it's Strength characteristic; roll 2D6. Obviously I can get an 11 or 12. Fortunately they gave us a way to handle that without referring to the Strength/Toughness chart: they auto wound/pen.

So what do we have? We have a psychic power, that doesn't qualify as an Assault Weapon however we are told on pg 69 exactly how to use it: roll to hit, saves can be taken in the same way as for any other shooting attack..

All of this means is that yes, you can ID a tyranid MC.

1. It is still an assault weapon. Nothing in this makes this power count as anything else. You need to show where it was stated.
2. There are many withfire powers that don't have a defined S characteristic, does that make them not PSA's? Jaws, ecstatic seizures etc etc. They still count as an assault weapon and allow you shoot and assault.
3. Where in the rules for crush did it say that the auto-inflicted wound has a strength value instead of just being an auto-inflict wound?
4. If your strength is above ten where is the rules that allow that?

Otherwise this entire thread is over.

1/2 I need to get my full rule book (not the mini one on my desk) later and I'll come back to those.

3. Implied by the wording of the rule. Every other reference in the book where a roll-to-wound roll is performed makes a reference to S. If Crush does not have a Strength then it can't work at all. So, we have to assume, based on the wording, that the Strength is 2D6. Again, to get past the limitations of the S vs T roll we are explicitly told 11/12 auto wounds / pens so we don't have to roll on any of those charts.

Therefore, those numbers are valid Strength values.

4. Strength of Crush is defined in the rule for Crush: 2D6. I don't need a further rule allowing it. Specific > General. In this case, Crush specifically allows for it and even goes so far as to give an additional rule on how to handle it.

I know you like claiming "thread over" but it's not.

There isn't a roll to wound here, not for 11 and 12 they are treated differently. This is just the roll to see the strength, strength is defined as 1-10, strength still requires a roll to wound. It doesn't need to have a value for 11 or 12, it just wounds.

"The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) "

The score of 11 or 12 is dealt with differently to 1-10, these cannot be strength values as you don't roll to wound using them nor are they valid values for strength.

Hehehe I get it! He's just trolling guys, relax. There is no way he actually believes that that one psychic power is somehow exempt from even the basis of how the game is played!

 liturgies of blood wrote:
There isn't a roll to wound here. This is just the roll to see the strength, strength is defined as 1-10, strength still requires a roll to wound. It doesn't need to have a strength value for 11 or 12, it just wounds.

"The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an I I or l2 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) "

The score of 11 or 12 is dealt with differently to 1-10, these cannot be strength values as you don't roll to wound using them nor are they valid values for strength.

I agree, up until the part where you state they aren't valid values for strength. Crush says they are and then goes further to tell us how to handle it to get past the S v T chart. The rule doesn't say "treat an 11 or 12 as S10", nor does it say 11/12 is only valid for the purpose of auto wounding. It is a very specific rule overriding the general ones.

It doesn't have to, you get an auto wound instead of any strength value.

It doesn't override the general restriction on S being 1-10.

Crush doesn't say that 11 or 12 are strength, it says that for a score of 11 or 12 do the following which is not a roll to wound.

If we look at Smash, it explicitly says to double the model's strength to a maximum of 10.

In that particular case we have a special rule that specifically changes how strength is set on the model. Then it goes on to specifically state that it has a maximum value of 10.

For some reason, the designers felt that they needed to say that which gives us precedence.

I think the reason goes back to pg 32. "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."

In a lot of these threads it comes down to specific vs general. Even if I agreed that Crush was classified as an assault weapon and that the "i.e." statement on page 50 limits weapons to a S of 1 to 10; that is still a general rule. Which, for the sake of narrowing the discussion, I will concede those points.

Crush itself is a special rule that "breaks" one of the main game rules. It is quite specific on how S is calculated. I believe credence is given to my position because it doesn't stop there. Instead, unlike Smash which reinstates the limiter, Crush is also specific about how to resolve the rule quandry for weapons with a S above 10. The only way I can take this is that both RAW and RAI is that Crush can be S11/12 as they handled any game breaking mechanics nicely.


---@Windir83: I am not trolling. I'm simply having a discussion based upon my reading of the rules, which liturgies is doing as well. It's polite and we currently simply disagree. Actually, I disagree with 40k-noob on several of his points as well, but that's not currently germain to the topic and would simply confuse things further. I have a lot of respect for both liturgies and 40k-noob and I really don't think I'm wasting anyone's time by going a bit further on the topic.

clively wrote:
rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted

Citation required.

Just read through it all and it seems simple enough...

Roll 2d6 to determine strength, if it's a 1-10, that represents the strength of the attack when you come to wound next...

On an 11-12, you wound automatically and don't have to roll to wound, thus avoiding the shameful roll of a 1 which I'm sure
We've all had

Thats how I'd take it, that way it keeps with the 0-10 characteristics thing and the rules of the game. It even has the 'failsafe' for if you do breach the str 10 roll on 2d6 roll of 11 or 12.

If not then that power alone is unrestricted by the rules everything else are governed by, which means its CHAOS!!!!

rigeld2 wrote:

clively wrote:
rigeld2:
You're missing part of that rule.

Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault Weapon (unless otherwise noted).

It is most certainly otherwise noted

Citation required.

Unnecessary, for the sake of simplicity I conceded that point. Please review my post 3 above this one for more info.

Short answer to a long discussion is MC's are immune to ID anyway

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Short answer to a long discussion is MC's are immune to ID anyway

Citation?

clively wrote:
If we look at Smash, it explicitly says to double the model's strength to a maximum of 10.

Because that is the maximum value Strength can have.

......For some reason, the designers felt that they needed to say that which gives us precedence.

RAI argument. They remind you of the rules repeatedly in the rules and codices, you can read into it or accept that they just do.

Crush itself is a special rule that "breaks" one of the main game rules. It is quite specific on how S is calculated. I believe credence is given to my position because it doesn't stop there. Instead, unlike Smash which reinstates the limiter, Crush is also specific about how to resolve the rule quandry for weapons with a S above 10. The only way I can take this is that both RAW and RAI is that Crush can be S11/12 as they handled any game breaking mechanics nicely.

This is not true, it doesn't tell you how to resolve strength greater than 10, it just says that if you roll 11 or 12 do something else.
This is different to breaking the strength rules. To have a specific is greater than general conflict you'd need the crush rule to actually say it's strength 11 and resolve it as such.

clively wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Short answer to a long discussion is MC's are immune to ID anyway

Citation?

Thinking last ed. statement revoked (only played 1-2 games in 6th, just moved to middle of nowhere) my apologies

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 liturgies of blood wrote:

......For some reason, the designers felt that they needed to say that which gives us precedence.

RAI argument. They remind you of the rules repeatedly in the rules and codices, you can read into it or accept that they just do.

Actually, I gave the RAW reason for it. pg 32, second paragraph, 1st sentence. My "For some reason," lead in was a poor choice of words.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

This is not true, it doesn't tell you how to resolve strength greater than 10, it just says that if you roll 11 or 12 do something else.
This is different to breaking the strength rules. To have a specific is greater than general conflict you'd need the crush rule to actually say it's strength 11 and resolve it as such.

I believe that if we can't agree that "Strength equal to the result" means that Strength is equal to the result of the 2D6 roll, then there's not much further we can go. The remainder of the sentence, although important because it tells us how to resolve it, doesn't change that they are using the terms Strength, Result and Score interchangably. All of which are equal to the 2D6 roll.

We simply have to start somewhere. Would you agree that, per the Crush rules and before applying any other rule, Strength = 2D6?

Strength is equal to the result(if it's 11 or 12 strenght isn't eqaul to the result as that isn't what the bit in the brackets say happens).

Only if it is between 1 and 10 or has specific rules to describe strength 10+. What is in those brackets are a subordinate clause, it is important to how you read the previous clause.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Strength is equal to the result

Okay.

liturgies of blood wrote:*snip* What is in those brackets are a subordinate clause, it is important to how you read the previous clause. *snip*

Absolutely agreed.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
(if it's 11 or 12 strenght isn't eqaul to the result as that isn't what the bit in the brackets say happens).

Now, just taking the text:
"a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit"

Which part says to reduce Strength to 10?

Which part says to resolve it at strength 11?
The bit that says automatically inflict a wound is the part that disregards the strength roll.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Which part says to resolve it at strength 11?
The bit that says automatically inflict a wound is the part that disregards the strength roll.

You do not "resolve" anything, it was done for you but granting an auto wound.
The target then takes a saving roll if one is available to it.

What you do need the Strength 11 or 12 for is determining whether or not the Wound causes Instant Death or not.

There is nothing in the Crush that disregards the 2D6 result.

No it says if you get an 11 or 12 do something else. It doesn't say automatically inflict a s10(+) wound. You are actually reading in more than is there.

If you take note the normal steps for resolving a hit of any strength against any target are suspended if you roll an 11 or 12.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Which part says to resolve it at strength 11?
The bit that says automatically inflict a wound is the part that disregards the strength roll.

Woah... hold on.

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 liturgies of blood wrote:
No it says if you get an 11 or 12 do something else. It doesn't say automatically inflict a s10(+) wound. ***snip*** If you take note the normal steps for resolving a hit of any strength against any target are suspended if you roll an 11 or 12.

Exactly. If we try to resolve an 11 or 12 using the S v T table then a problem occurs. However, the rule itself tells us exactly how to handle that specific situation: ignore the S v T table by auto pen/wounding.

Still, it doesn't say "disregard" anything. It simply tells us what to do when the specific rule conflicts with the general rules on S v T.

Can you point to a part of that rule that says "disregard", "ignore" or uses any other synonym or clause to reduce S to 10?

It doesn't say what strength the wound is, it says a wound is auto-inflicted.
It doesn't matter what you rolled on those 2d6 when there is a wound of no mentioned strength inflicted.
Same way you can't ID when you have a wound inflicted by perils or DT tests.

Look at the structure of the sentence.

The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) with an AP equal to the result of a separate D5 roll.

Either you wound automatically and then apply a to wound roll with strength 11 or 12 or that bracketed section is telling you to deal with an outlier.

You seem to read it as this:

The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result with an AP equal to the result of a separate D5 roll. Also a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit.

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clively wrote:

It simply tells us what to do when the specific rule conflicts with the general rules on S v T.

Exactly, you don't apply a to wound roll it just wounds automatically and no strength value is involved because it just says it wounds automatically.

Can you point to a part of that rule that says "disregard", "ignore" or uses any other synonym or clause to reduce S to 10?

That bit that tells you what to do with the outlier to the general rules.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It doesn't say what strength the wound is, it says a wound is auto-inflicted.

Strength equal to the result.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It doesn't matter what you rolled on those 2d6 when there is a wound of no mentioned strength inflicted.

Again, Strength = 2D6. Special case of 11/12 result handled. Because we have a S assigned for the hit, it matters for purposes of other rule interactions: eg. ID.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Same way you can't ID when you have a wound inflicted by perils or DT tests.

Perils - strength is not defined in any fashion, no saves allowed. Specifically states only 1 wound is suffered. Effectively ignores To Hit and To Wound tables. Because no S mentioned, no further handling necessary.
Dangerous Terrain - Specifically states 1 wound suffered, allows armor or inv save. Effectively ignores To Hit and To Wound tables. Because no S mentioned, no further handling necessary.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Look at the structure of the sentence.

The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result (a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit) with an AP equal to the result of a separate D5 roll.

Either you wound automatically and then apply a to wound roll with strength 11 or 12 or that bracketed section is telling you to deal with an outlier.

You seem to read it as this:

The target model suffers a hit with a Strength equal to the result with an AP equal to the result of a separate D5 roll. Also a score of an 11 or 12 wounds automatically or, in the case of a vehicle, causes an automatic penetrating hit.

I'm not seeing the difference in meaning between the two. The parenthetical is further describing how to handle the 11 or 12, not limiting the result. It could just as easily have been a separate sentence as your second wording shows.

Then it doesn't matter. You obviously read it a being two separate sentences that have only a slight contextual overlap.
It's not as firstly it's 1 sentence and 2nd the positioning of the brackets also has some significance.

BTW what was the strength of the hit to the armour of the vehicle? Oh yeah, it didn't have a strength because none was listed.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Then it doesn't matter. You obviously read it a being two separate sentences that have only a slight contextual overlap.
It's not as firstly it's 1 sentence and 2nd the positioning of the brackets also has some significance.

I agree that the text has significance. A bracket or parenthesis is there to provide further contextual meaning; which I've spelled out and won't rehash.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
BTW what was the strength of the hit to the armour of the vehicle? Oh yeah, it didn't have a strength because none was listed.

The DT rules are quite explicit with vehicles as well: if it fails the test it is instantly mobilized. You don't roll on the damage table so S and AP don't matter. The mechanics of those rules are very well defined, understood and completely different from Crush/Psychic Tests/Weapons/etc. So I'm not sure why you think they are valid to even bring up.

Unless you are talking about the strength of Crush against vehicles. That's easy. S = 2D6. The rest is covered by page 73 under armor penetration rolls: roll a D6 and add to the weapon's strength. So you'll end up with a final S between 3 and 18.

clively wrote:
We simply have to start somewhere. Would you agree that, per the Crush rules and before applying any other rule, Strength = 2D6?

Sure. Not that it matters because you cannot have the rule exist in isolation.