Basically what are the canon heights for Big E and Sons, too many conflicting reports where Alpharius and Lorgar are only a head or so taller than an Astarte, while A human woman was only up to the waist of Horus.
I always assumed that a primarch would be to an astartes what an astartes is to a human, and the empoerer would be even larger than that.
An Astartes is 7-7.5 feet tall. That's a foot and a half over an average adult man. That a human woman (on average shorter than a human man) was only waist-high to Horus puts him at 10-11 feet tall. That's fething huge.
However, the Emperor was known to psychically change his shape and size at will, so his true height is unknown.
Cool, I always assumed Mortarion was the tallest at 12ish feet ever since being described as lean muscled and long limbed (similar to how a chimpanzee doesn't look to be nearly as strong as it really is), while some like Dorn, Horus, The Lion and Russ would be 11ish feet but more heavily muscled.
Let us say that Average Human is 2 meters tall...
Astartes are 2.5 to 3 meters tall.
Primarchs would be around 4 meters.
I believe Emperor would be up to 5.
This is just my interpretation based on the art, official and nonofficial. In my opinion regular Priamrch would be the same size as Dreadnought, maybe even a little taller witch is freaking huge.
In Battle of the Fang the Space Wolves fortress was assaulted by a primarch (can't remember which) who was described as having the ability to make himself larger at will. I believe the tallest was something like dreadnought sized when he faced off with bjorn.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: In Battle of the Fang the Space Wolves fortress was assaulted by a primarch (can't remember which) who was described as having the ability to make himself larger at will. I believe the tallest was something like dreadnought sized when he faced off with bjorn.
That was Magnus and could seemingly change his size since the very beginning.
If you look at the angron mini and straightened him out, he would be twice as tall as a marine, depending on which.source you use for.marine height that could put.him between 16 and 26 feet tall...madness
Magnus was always described as the biggest though, he's a huge red cyclops, even before he changed his height he was meant to be huge.
The thing about the Primarchs though, is that they're all different sizes. Alpharius and Omegon were the smallest, standing barely a head taller than an Astartes, with most being to an Astartes, what an Astartes is to a human. So let's put the average man at 6ft, and an Astartes at 7.5ft (most sources say 7-8ft, so we can assume 7.5ft for this demo) That's 1.5 feet taller, or 25% taller. We can then interpret this two ways;
-The Primarchs could be 1.5ft bigger than Astartes, standing 9ft tall.
-The Primarchs are 25% larger than Space Marines, standing 9.375ft tall, so roughly 9'4", not a huge difference, but a number that increases as Space Marines get bigger.
So, in my opinion, going from HH descriptions, the average Primarch is about 9ft tall, With others on either side of the bell curve, Apharius Omegon on the far left, Magnus on the far right.
As for the Emperor, I can't help sorry. But as Psienesis said, he could change his own size, so we won't know.
Boy, that must suck not being able to ride in the tanks your army uses.
But I suppose this is the point where I should throw in that no, we do not have any sort of definite numbers, since very few things in 40k are definite. Rather, all we know and all we read is "rumors, distorted legends and half-truths", to quote Marc Gascoigne.
And personally, the larger people are described as, and the more insane stunts they supposedly pull off, the more I am willing to believe it's one of those legends.
In the end, however, we all have to make our own call on that. There is no truth on this matter, merely opinions and preferences.
Lion El'Jonson unarmoured is said to be a little above three meters tall, in Descent of Angels.
Also, Ogryns, who also can be three meters tall, can ride in chimeras, so ignore Lynata's insinuation that a Primarch can't fit in a tank.
Also, why are people assuming the Emperor is taller than his Primarchs? He's not, at base, he seems to be about equal in height. The Primarchs have varying sizes. Alpharius, the smallest, is the size of a big Marine. Magnus is the largest, and can further change his size.
Ogryns do not wear powered armour with large backpacks (this is important - Ogryns can actually bend when boarding, and from how it sounds they do), "up to 3 meters" is not "always 3 meters", and a Rhino looks like it has smaller doors than a Chimera.
Let's not argue, though. As I said, it's a matter of opinions and preferences, and the sources on all of these things will invariably deliver vague or conflicting information.
Lynata wrote: Ogryns do not wear powered armour with large backpacks (this is important - Ogryns can actually bend when boarding, and from how it sounds they do), "up to 3 meters" is not "always 3 meters", and a Rhino looks like it has smaller doors than a Chimera.
Let's not argue, though. As I said, it's a matter of opinions and preferences, and the sources on all of these things will invariably deliver vague or conflicting information.
Void__Dragon wrote:What makes you believe Primarchs can't bend?
What conflicting information?
The design of power armour, of course. With such massive chestplates and armoured bellies, you are only flexible so much. Not to mention the greatly enhanced arms and legs, etc. Unless of course we assume that it is the depictions of the appearances and armour that are exaggerated.
And what conflicting information? At this level of detail, every second book that goes into that degree of detail will tell you something different. You know very well how this stuff works in 40k - just look at the many contradictory ideas of novel writers concerning the height of the standard Space Marine; cue Jes Goodwin's comment on "them getting bigger with every new book". I'm sure that the following posts will deliver sufficient examples for Primarchs, too.
Why are we even debating this, though? We both know there is no true common ground here.
I'd actually just assume that most writers, GW and BL, disregard what the armour actually looks and would function like.
I'm sure they probably won't, personally. And any "contradictions" would only have relevance if it is the same Primarch being spoken of.
There is one statement on the height of a Primarch I have seen. Three meters outside of armour, and a head above Termie armoured astartes. That last part is parroted many times in many books.
Debate doesn't need a purpose; the argument is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I debate.
Wut? No wonder rest of your numbers are totally crazy if you have this much trouble gauging sizes of things that actually exist.
I always hated the idea that Emperor was somehow super huge. Humans are not orks, they do not decide leadership based on who is biggest. Emperor is a master psyker and a strategist. I'd Imagine him to be much more like a Jedi Knight than Incredible Hulk.
My numbers:
Average Human: 175 cm Emperor: 195 cm Average Marine 215 cm Primarchs: about 240 cm (Aplharius is shorter, Magnus taller.)
Void__Dragon wrote: The Emperor, as the mightiest psyker in the galaxy, could make himself as big as he damn well pleased.
He certainly could, so his 'real' size is hard to estimate.
What leads you toward those numbers?
Well, marine size is the standard GW seven foot figure, and rest is just my totally made up 'personal canon.'
195 cm is a good height for a really tall person who do not still seem freakishly huge. As for Primarchs, I've always imagined them as really big dudes, but still being able to interact somewhat normally with the human scale world, and anything past eight feet really is too big for that.
Wjy the heck does it even matter how tall the emperor is, he could look like this guy..
And he would still be the frikken Emperor, as has been stated over and over again he's the most powerful human psycher yadda yadda.
so he could be 5' nothing and a couch potato, and still turn you inside out through your anus!
Personally I like the idea of a little scmuck of a emperor, who down through the millenia has been "inflated"in stature by all his fanatical followers.
hmmm I wonder if his bones on the throne are super sized too.
I always had the impression that the "height" matter in 40k is more a subjective impression (so to speak) than the objective feet'n'inches/metres'n'centimetres measure.
The fact that the Emperor is often described as someone not definite regarding dimensions or age (now young, then old, then middleaged...) had made me convinced that the size of astartes/primarchs/emperor is more than all a matter of awe.
So, why Alpharius/Omegon is the smaller of the primarch, whereas Magnus and Horus are so imposing?
It could be just for that. I mean, Alpharius relies on cunning, on the fact that any Legionnaire 'is Alpharius'... so, he's as big as astartes, seems slightly bigger when you realize it's him, else he does not want to stand out.
On the other side Hours is charismatic and proud of himself (hubris most of all is is flaw, innit?) and Magnus knows his mind is the (second) most powerful (at least in the Imperium), so you can have a 'bigger' perception of them (and people might unconsciously cringe (sort of) before such generals).
Moreover, Imperium feels to me nearly obsessed with objects being standard, so PA are 'one size', adjustable on the inside within some limits. Also, since an Astartes may simply be promoted to terminator (or, as in GK case, they may wear both at any time) TDA can not be so much bigger than the normal one. Bulkier, more menacing, but not necessarily bigger.
You kind of see it when you see (well done) PA cosplays vs not armored people. 'Marines' are normal people, there, but they still seem way bigger.
Also, in earlier editions, I think I read something about the marine weighting about 10% more of a normal man, upon completing the augmentations. Subtract from this the black carapace, the mass increase of hyper-dense bones... we're not so much apart in size.
But, when you see a Marine (even unarmoured) that can spar for twelve hours without breaking a sweat, who can march and fight for a week without sleeping, you may naturally and unconsciously 'enlarge' his figure, because his being too much superoministic to be like a normal human.
"Upgrading" this thread of insan.. *cough* of thoughts, let's see three examples (Spoiler, since I review albeit vaguely, pieces from two HH books)
Spoiler:
Example 1. Guilliman.
Apart the fact that he normally multitasks things that would require a dozen people...
He's unhelmeted on the bridge when it explodes.
Not only he survives the explosion, but he reenters on a bay, from vacuum, stil w/o helmet, and saves the day.
Example 2. Sanguinius (If I'm not mistaking with another primarch, I read too many books in a row :p)
In an access of rage, he backhands a marine, beheading him.
Example 3. Horus.
If he was so much bigger than Astartes/Terminators, there is no way that the Vindicare in Nemesis could target the wrong person.
"Looks like I aimed and shot a 7' man instead of a 10' one. Well, oops?" - seriously?
People capable of such things, are "inflated" in our perception.
And all the Imperium knows what they are capable of.
And all the enemies fear what they are capable of, no matter how defiant they appear.
Void__Dragon wrote: I'd actually just assume that most writers, GW and BL, disregard what the armour actually looks and would function like.
I'm sure they probably won't, personally. And any "contradictions" would only have relevance if it is the same Primarch being spoken of.
There is one statement on the height of a Primarch I have seen. Three meters outside of armour, and a head above Termie armoured astartes. That last part is parroted many times in many books.
Debate doesn't need a purpose; the argument is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I debate.
Formosa wrote: If you look at the angron mini and straightened him out, he would be twice as tall as a marine, depending on which.source you use for.marine height that could put.him between 16 and 26 feet tall...madness
Magnus can change his height as needed and is therefore both the tallest and the shortest. In Battle of the Fang, he grew to ~50' tall. In Battle of the mouse hole, he shrank to 3" tall.
Angron is the shortest, as seen in the image below. He's the tiny, angry man standing next to Magnus the Red. Using the FW model as a basis: A Space Marine is 13 feet tall, so Angron must be 18-20' tall, therefore the average Primarch is 25' tall. End of!
There is a passage I remember reading about Leman Russ patting a dreadnought on the shoulder amiably, this predated the creation of Bjorn FH in the lore so I'm not sure which dread it was.
If we can establish the size of a dreadnought, we have the size of a Primarch at minimum.
13 feet? damn. Being two heads taller than a human equates into 13 feet? no offense but that'd mean the average adult male in the US (5'9") is less than half the height. Although guardsmen are described as chest/shoulder height to a Marine in full Power Armor.
Formosa wrote: If you look at the angron mini and straightened him out, he would be twice as tall as a marine, depending on which.source you use for.marine height that could put.him between 16 and 26 feet tall...madness
Magnus can change his height as needed and is therefore both the tallest and the shortest. In Battle of the Fang, he grew to ~50' tall. In Battle of the mouse hole, he shrank to 3" tall.
Angron is the shortest, as seen in the image below. He's the tiny, angry man standing next to Magnus the Red. Using the FW model as a basis: A Space Marine is 13 feet tall, so Angron must be 18-20' tall, therefore the average Primarch is 25' tall. End of!
This fits with the description of what some of the Primarchs are able to achieve physically.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: There is a passage I remember reading about Leman Russ patting a dreadnought on the shoulder amiably, this predated the creation of Bjorn FH in the lore so I'm not sure which dread it was.
If we can establish the size of a dreadnought, we have the size of a Primarch at minimum.
dreads are generally 2.5-3 times the height of a Space Marine IIRC.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: 13 feet? damn. Being two heads taller than a human equates into 13 feet? no offense but that'd mean the average adult male in the US (5'9") is less than half the height. Although guardsmen are described as chest/shoulder height to a Marine in full Power Armor.
I'll remind you that Heresy and Crusade era marines, being closer to their progenitor-Primarchs in the purity and potency of their geneseed, were far larger than the 'current' marines of the 41st. The closer the generation to it's founder, the more powerful and larger the marine becomes.
I always wondered. Since the Custodians were rumored to have their geneseed/code/whatever directly from the Emperor, how tall would that have made them if true?
Thatguyhsagun wrote: 13 feet? damn. Being two heads taller than a human equates into 13 feet? no offense but that'd mean the average adult male in the US (5'9") is less than half the height. Although guardsmen are described as chest/shoulder height to a Marine in full Power Armor.
I'll remind you that Heresy and Crusade era marines, being closer to their progenitor-Primarchs in the purity and potency of their geneseed, were far larger than the 'current' marines of the 41st. The closer the generation to it's founder, the more powerful and larger the marine becomes.
This is supported by several statements in the HH novels where current, meaning 31st Millennium, Characters glimpse the 41st and see the Space Marines as a shadow of the power that they possess.
kronk wrote:I always wondered. Since the Custodians were rumored to have their geneseed/code/whatever directly from the Emperor, how tall would that have made them if true?
The Emperor is taller than average so maybe 6'5" or so?
I'll remind you that Heresy and Crusade era marines, being closer to their progenitor-Primarchs in the purity and potency of their geneseed, were far larger than the 'current' marines of the 41st. The closer the generation to it's founder, the more powerful and larger the marine becomes.
No they weren't. There's still plenty of Heresy era armours around, and they are just right sized for the current, seven feet tall marines. And 13 feet is just people absolutely having no sense of scale or proportion at all. That is the size of a Dreadnought or a Daemon Prince.
kronk wrote: I always wondered. Since the Custodians were rumored to have their geneseed/code/whatever directly from the Emperor, how tall would that have made them if true?
The Emperor is often shown, usually against Horus, in artwork. In those pictures he is comparable to Horus in height, despite Horus wearing terminator armor and the Emperor only wearing an ornate power armor.
If we take this into consideration, we can assume that as big as Horus is, the Emperor is bigger again, perhaps by a primarch head or two.
We are therefore looking at around 25 or 30 feet in height.
Factoring this, we can assume his own 'space marines', the Custodians, would be again, larger and tougher than the marines of antiquity, themselves greater than their descendants.
I'll remind you that Heresy and Crusade era marines, being closer to their progenitor-Primarchs in the purity and potency of their geneseed, were far larger than the 'current' marines of the 41st. The closer the generation to it's founder, the more powerful and larger the marine becomes.
No they weren't. There's still plenty of Heresy era armours around, and they are just right sized for the current, seven feet tall marines. And 13 feet is just people absolutely having no sense of scale or proportion at all. That is the size of a Dreadnought or a Daemon Prince.
Citation for either of those statements? Techmarines and Chapter/Legion servitors make constant changes to Space Marine armor. Not every Space Marine who has worn a particular set of Mark III Iron Armor has been the exact same dimensions, adjustments must be made per user of the suit.
kronk wrote: I always wondered. Since the Custodians were rumored to have their geneseed/code/whatever directly from the Emperor, how tall would that have made them if true?
I'll go ahead and guestimate about 18 feet.
Oh. That seems short to me. How would they fit in the land raider driver's seats? I guess they have full-grown Space Marines in terminator armor driving them.
Surprised Angron was so "short" (comparatively at least). Maybe he just had Napoleonic syndrome.
At least he turned into a giant after being a Daemon Prince.
Anyway as for the Emperor's size, I don't imagine him any larger then your average Primarch. He was slightly smaller then Horus in the artwork, and I assume by that point he wasn't bothering to hide his size anymore.
Citation for either of those statements? Techmarines and Chapter/Legion servitors make constant changes to Space Marine armor. Not every Space Marine who has worn a particular set of Mark III Iron Armor has been the exact same dimensions, adjustments must be made per user of the suit.
Adjusting armour made to 13 feet man to fit to seven feet man would be like adjusting Challenger tank to be a Mini Cooper.
(for comparison, Tyrannosaurus Rex could grow to be 20 feet tall.)
So, you're going to start throwing random dinosaur sizes about in the thread for...?
This is the scifi equivelent of Greek or Roman mythology, with slightly less man-love, it is a time of legends and giants and if you're going to staunchly stand there and compare the size of the emperor to the dinosaurs, I can't stop you, but I can point out the flaws in your 'modern science' argument.
If Zeus is said to be 100 feet tall, do you want to start shouting because that's taller than a stegosaurus. This is a fantastical setting and you need to let go of the hyper-realistic. We go by what is written, not by what makes the most sense.
So, you're going to start throwing random dinosaur sizes about in the thread for...?
This is the scifi equivelent of Greek or Roman mythology, with slightly less man-love, it is a time of legends and giants and if you're going to staunchly stand there and compare the size of the emperor to the dinosaurs, I can't stop you, but I can point out the flaws in your 'modern science' argument.
It is not about science, it was just to make sure that people grasp what these numbers mean. If you're fine Emperor being 50% taller than a Tyrannosaurus Rex, then sure, whatever. I'm not stopping you imagining him like that.
Citation for either of those statements? Techmarines and Chapter/Legion servitors make constant changes to Space Marine armor. Not every Space Marine who has worn a particular set of Mark III Iron Armor has been the exact same dimensions, adjustments must be made per user of the suit.
Adjusting armour made to 13 feet man to fit to seven feet man would be like adjusting Challenger tank to be a Mini Cooper.
Of course, chapter relics are only given to proven heros, or astartes that best exemplify the geneseed. It makes sense that only the unusually tall would wear the old armor.
Also, converting a tank into a subcompact isn't done at one go. You'd gradually and slowly adjust armor down over the millenia. Cut a centimeter ever 50years, and you'd shorten something by two meters between the HH and present.
The human race has gotten taller as our food have become healthier, more balanced. Also, Flintstones vitamins.
It's no wonder that given 28,000 years, GNC and other vitamin stores have had ample time figuring out new ways to get us "healthier", and therefore taller.
And that's not to mention genetically altered foods like the stuff Monsanto makes. Who knows how far that research could go and what the REALLY long term effects would be!
That was the very picture I was citing earlier 'Gargantuan', The Big E's knees are both bent, the raised leg so much so that his foot is turned outside up!
If he straightens up, he's as tall as Horus is IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR! If Horus towers over his 'golden age' marines, the Emp towers over him! If a golden age marine is around 11-12ft, the H is what, 15-16ft and the E is around 20ft then, in that artwork alone! (so, perhaps Crimson was right about him being as tall as a T Rex, although it's worth remembering a T Rex is very long, rather than tall).
MeanGreenStompa wrote: That was the very picture I was citing earlier 'Gargantuan', The Big E's knees are both bent, the raised leg so much so that his foot is turned outside up!
If he straightens up, he's as tall as Horus is IN TERMINATOR ARMOUR! If Horus towers over his 'golden age' marines, the Emp towers over him! If a golden age marine is around 11-12ft, the H is what, 15-16ft and the E is around 20ft then, in that artwork alone! (so, perhaps Crimson was right about him being as tall as a T Rex, although it's worth remembering a T Rex is very long, rather than tall).
One of Big E's legs is straight (or at least almost straight) in the new duel artwork
Also, can I get a quote and page number where it says marines were 11+ feet in the Horus Heresy
No source indicates that Heresy-era Marines were taller than their current incarnations.
13 feet? That's the size of a Dreadnought.
So here comes the question... How could Bjorn be interred into a Dreadnought, that is demonstratably the size of normal dreadnoughts, when he at base was as tall as it?
CSM codex puts unarmoured marines at 7ft and therefore armoured would be assumed about 8ft.
Alpharius was only just taller at ~9ft by my reckoning.
Others I am not sure about.
Sanguinius, from the artwork of Fear to Tread, looks not.much shorter than a Bloodthirster.
Horus was, judging by the "woman height of waist", was probably about ~12ft.
The rest can vary. Magnus I'm guessing is probably at least 14ft
not to mention that most of them were said to tower over Cataphractii Terminators so that by reckoning puts them all, apart from Alpharius, at 14~ft depending on how tall a Cataphracti Terminator is.
Deadshot wrote: CSM codex puts unarmoured marines at 7ft and therefore armoured would be assumed about 8ft.
Alpharius was only just taller at ~9ft by my reckoning.
Others I am not sure about.
Sanguinius, from the artwork of Fear to Tread, looks not.much shorter than a Bloodthirster.
Horus was, judging by the "woman height of waist", was probably about ~12ft.
The rest can vary. Magnus I'm guessing is probably at least 14ft
not to mention that most of them were said to tower over Cataphractii Terminators so that by reckoning puts them all, apart from Alpharius, at 14~ft depending on how tall a Cataphracti Terminator is.
It doesn't say 7 feet unarmoured, only that marines stand 7 feet tall. Marines also don't wear 12 inch platform shoes
So here comes the question... How could Bjorn be interred into a Dreadnought, that is demonstratably the size of normal dreadnoughts, when he at base was as tall as it?
Simple: People interred in Dreadnaughts have no arms and legs. Take that into account and Bjorn fits perfectly. And unlike more modern Dreadnoughts, he never got disoriented by the size difference, hence why he's able to still be BS5.
I know this isn't 100 percent but I think this is a great representation hope this helps. Shows the two primarchs with humans by their sides and marines in the back ground
I love that picture, can't wait for the book. Guilliman looks quite a lot broader than Sanguinius here though, whilst Sanguinius seems to be a smidgen taller.
Judging by those humans, I'd put them both ~12' tall.
One thing to keep in mind is that as people get very old, they actually get smaller. This would also likely be true of Space Marines over time.
So even if one of the Primarchs was 16' tall during his prime (that is, during the Horus Heresy), by the time of the 41st millennium it's quite possible that he would have shrunk a foot or two.
This would hold true for regular Space Marines as well. During their prime, after their service in the scouts and when they have reached full battle-brother status, they're probably what, 12' or 14'? If they survive long enough to reach the officer ranks (let's say, by the time a Space Marine gets promoted to captain, which could take a couple hundred years) he will have shrunk to 10' or 11'.
The point is, it's variable. Marines grow and shrink as their life cycle progresses. Obviously this could change significantly if we're talking about Chaos Space Marines who have touched the taint of Chaos.
This would hold true for regular Space Marines as well. During their prime, after their service in the scouts and when they have reached full battle-brother status, they're probably what, 12' or 14'? If they survive long enough to reach the officer ranks (let's say, by the time a Space Marine gets promoted to captain, which could take a couple hundred years) he will have shrunk to 10' or 11'.
Oh now we have shrinking marines! I last thread we got magically forever growing marines.
But they're still seven feet tall. Not 14, 12, 11 or even ten.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: I love that picture, can't wait for the book. Guilliman looks quite a lot broader than Sanguinius here though, whilst Sanguinius seems to be a smidgen taller.
Judging by those humans, I'd put them both ~12' tall.
More like ten. They're less than twice of the height of the regular humans, and those seem like hunched over old geezers. Probably not terribly tall. Not that a random artwork is a consistent or reliable measuring stick anyway.
This would hold true for regular Space Marines as well. During their prime, after their service in the scouts and when they have reached full battle-brother status, they're probably what, 12' or 14'? If they survive long enough to reach the officer ranks (let's say, by the time a Space Marine gets promoted to captain, which could take a couple hundred years) he will have shrunk to 10' or 11'.
Oh now we have shrinking marines! I last thread we got magically forever growing marines.
But they're still seven feet tall. Not 14, 12, 11 or even ten.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: I love that picture, can't wait for the book. Guilliman looks quite a lot broader than Sanguinius here though, whilst Sanguinius seems to be a smidgen taller.
Judging by those humans, I'd put them both ~12' tall.
More like ten. They're less than twice of the height of the regular humans, and those seem like hunched over old geezers. Probably not terribly tall. Not that a random artwork is a consistent or reliable measuring stick anyway.
That 'random artwork' is the cover for the upcoming HH novel 'Unremembered Empire'. Pretty sure it's done by Neil Roberts, the guy who does most, if not all, of the HH book covers, so I'd say that it is actually very reliable and extremely consistent.
Well who knows, maybe Vulkan will come from planet spaceball where he found a cure for the emperor and gulliman and they band together to destroy chaos. Besides, dead doesn't mean not immortal, just not invincible, and daemons are immortal so chaos doesn't help much. Still, maybe Vulkan will come back (or die in a HH novel who knows)
This would hold true for regular Space Marines as well. During their prime, after their service in the scouts and when they have reached full battle-brother status, they're probably what, 12' or 14'? If they survive long enough to reach the officer ranks (let's say, by the time a Space Marine gets promoted to captain, which could take a couple hundred years) he will have shrunk to 10' or 11'.
Oh now we have shrinking marines! I last thread we got magically forever growing marines.
But they're still seven feet tall. Not 14, 12, 11 or even ten.
So, when offered an argument for why you might experience smaller marines, you can't abide those either, they have to be an exact size with no deviations, like Goldilocks and her porridge, not too tall and not too short but jusssst right...
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: I love that picture, can't wait for the book. Guilliman looks quite a lot broader than Sanguinius here though, whilst Sanguinius seems to be a smidgen taller.
Judging by those humans, I'd put them both ~12' tall.
More like ten. They're less than twice of the height of the regular humans, and those seem like hunched over old geezers. Probably not terribly tall. Not that a random artwork is a consistent or reliable measuring stick anyway.
Look at the back of that 'hunched up old geezer', straight as a rod, then consider the proportions of those two humans, they are themselves tall. That is a slender man. Perhaps 6.5 in total, and he only comes halfway up the primarch's upper leg. Another few feet would see him to halfway, so the primarch is around 18-20 feet tall in this image.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Sir Samuel Buca wrote: I love that picture, can't wait for the book. Guilliman looks quite a lot broader than Sanguinius here though, whilst Sanguinius seems to be a smidgen taller.
Judging by those humans, I'd put them both ~12' tall.
More like ten. They're less than twice of the height of the regular humans, and those seem like hunched over old geezers. Probably not terribly tall. Not that a random artwork is a consistent or reliable measuring stick anyway.
Look at the back of that 'hunched up old geezer', straight as a rod, then consider the proportions of those two humans, they are themselves tall. That is a slender man. Perhaps 6.5 in total, and he only comes halfway up the primarch's upper leg. Another few feet would see him to halfway, so the primarch is around 18-20 feet tall in this image.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
I have to disagree, the man on the left reaches the waists of the two Primarchs, and we cannot say that they are tall, when we're comparing them to beings who's size we're trying to figure out. Slender =/= tall, I am very thin and slender with narrow shoulders and the proportions of a taller man, but I'm only 5'5", nowhere near tall, from a distance, I could seem to be quite tall and thin, but up close you can quite easily see that I'm short and just wiry.
Going from that, we can only assume that they are roughly average height, with maybe a few given inches, due to the chance that they may be quite tall. Now, the average male height in the UK and US is around the 5'10" mark, so let's call these serfs 6'3" maximum. I'll give you them now quite reaching the waists, so we can factor in perhaps another 3/4' for that. From toes to waist is roughly half your height, so if we add up the numbers we have here, which are based on careful observations and insomnia fueled numbers, we can say that a Primarch is 7'ish at the waist, so that'd be ~14' for these two Primarchs, give or take a bit for armour and wings.
Most of them died within few centuries from their creation or were turned into Daemons...
According to the Index Astartes articles the last Primarch to disappear was the Khan and he disappeared in 39,000. According to the same the only Space Marines who could procreate where the White Scars.
According to the Index Astartes articles the last Primarch to disappear was the Khan and he disappeared in 39,000. According to the same the only Space Marines who could procreate where the White Scars.
I don't think you're correct:
IA wrote:During the Horus Heresy, when the White Scars fought on scores of different worlds and their banners indicate that the Legion helped to defend Terra and fought at the gates of the Imperial Palace.
Jaghatai Khan fought alongside his warriors for perhaps another 70 years before his eventual disappearance in a region of space close to the Maelstrom.
Crimson is the only poster in this thread that I can even read.
It's true, that is my problem and nobody asked.
anyway, being tall is really crappy. The 19-20 most prodigious people in the galaxy can probably overcome the horrible drawbacks of being nine feet tall. So I can deal with nine foot Primarchs.
Also, have you seen a nineteen foot anything? Ever? No object that tall had ever existed outside of laboratory conditions or extra solar observations. You are crazy.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: So, when offered an argument for why you might experience smaller marines, you can't abide those either, they have to be an exact size with no deviations, like Goldilocks and her porridge, not too tall and not too short but jusssst right...
You haven't provided a citation for your claim on Space Marine heights, and you never have.
Do so please.
Look at the back of that 'hunched up old geezer', straight as a rod, then consider the proportions of those two humans, they are themselves tall. That is a slender man. Perhaps 6.5 in total, and he only comes halfway up the primarch's upper leg. Another few feet would see him to halfway, so the primarch is around 18-20 feet tall in this image.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
He's up to his waist. Even assuming baselessly that those old men are 6'6", that would not bring them to twenty feet tall, not nearly.
Horus was taller and larger than the Emperor in that picture. Be real.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Why are you assuming that the Human in that picture is only 6' tall?
In the year 30,000, the food they eat would be far more nutritious and people would be 7-8 feet tall, at least. Think what GNC and other health stores will learn in the coming millenia!
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Why are you assuming that the Human in that picture is only 6' tall?
In the year 30,000, the food they eat would be far more nutritious and people would be 7-8 feet tall, at least. Think what GNC and other health stores will learn in the coming millenia!
I don't think so seeing as Astartes are 7-8ft and tower over human.s
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Why are you assuming that the Human in that picture is only 6' tall?
In the year 30,000, the food they eat would be far more nutritious and people would be 7-8 feet tall, at least. Think what GNC and other health stores will learn in the coming millenia!
I don't think so seeing as Astartes are 7-8ft and tower over humans. And why would you assume the Imperium cares enough to feed them nutritious food? They will 99% likely to die before age 25.
I don't think so seeing as Astartes are 7-8ft and tower over humans. And why would you assume the Imperium cares enough to feed them nutritious food? They will 99% likely to die before age 25.
Which part of the imperium of a million million worlds are you talking about?
Every single world is different.
Also, note the cloaks and such, these are distinguished humans, perhaps nobles or leaders, likely pretty well fed folks from a line of well fed folks.
I'm going to have to disagree with with your assertions that a Space Marine is 7 foot tall. These humans appear to be around 7ft tall. They're well fed, and are obviously enjoying the fruits of the Imperium...
I'm going to have to disagree with with your assertions that a Space Marine is 7 foot tall. These humans appear to be around 7ft tall. They're well fed, and are obviously enjoying the fruits of the Imperium...
And they're like half the size of Sanguininus!
Why would you assume that these humans are seven feet tall? They might be five. Also, we've pretty much maxed on what diet can do to the human height. People who eat really healthily all their lives do not regularly grow to be seven feet tall.
Regardless, seven feet is GW studio height for Space Marines (AFAIK, FFG also goes with that.)
I'm going to have to disagree with with your assertions that a Space Marine is 7 foot tall. These humans appear to be around 7ft tall. They're well fed, and are obviously enjoying the fruits of the Imperium...
And they're like half the size of Sanguininus!
Why would you assume that these humans are seven feet tall?
I'm going to have to disagree with with your assertions that a Space Marine is 7 foot tall. These humans appear to be around 7ft tall. They're well fed, and are obviously enjoying the fruits of the Imperium...
Alfndrate wrote: See my photographic evidence. If SM were 7ft tall, that'd make those humans 3.5 feet tall...
No it wouldn't. Those Primarchs are bigger than regular space marines, and the normal human are clearly more than half of the height of the Primarchs. I really wouldn't start making any definite assumptions based on one piece of art, but Primarch height here seems to match quite well with the ten* feet apparently mentioned in some HH book. Marines are still seven feet, of course.
(* too much for my liking, but at least it shows some consistency in their vision.)
Alfndrate wrote:See my photographic evidence. If SM were 7ft tall, that'd make those humans 3.5 feet tall...
Granted, those are Primarchs, whose height is not set in stone and has been described as varying depending on the individual. I think one 2E source actually mentioned some of them to be "the size of an ordinary human being" whereas others were "of titanic proportions", but that's from memory so don't take my word for it.
Personally, I imagine the Primarchs to be somewhat bigger than the standard Marine (about a head or so), albeit not ridiculously so in order to still allow them to utilise the same vehicles and pass the same doors, etc.
Pilau Rice wrote: I like the notion of that picture but the Primarchs seem ridiculously big in it. I know they are supposed to be big, stupid big, but that seems crazy.
And if we assume the robed people are normal humans, then those Primarchs are about ten feet tall. There were some people saying that normal marines should be 13 feet tall and Primarchs 20! Yeah...
Alfndrate wrote: See my photographic evidence. If SM were 7ft tall, that'd make those humans 3.5 feet tall...
No it wouldn't. Those Primarchs are bigger than regular space marines, and the normal human are clearly more than half of the height of the Primarchs. I really wouldn't start making any definite assumptions based on one piece of art, but Primarch height here seems to match quite well with the ten* feet apparently mentioned in some HH book. Marines are still seven feet, of course.
(* too much for my liking, but at least it shows some consistency in their vision.)
The guy in the foreground doesn't even past the top of Sanguinius's belt... How is he more than half of the height? The guy is standing on the guy's shoulders and barely comes above the Primarch's head?
The guy in the foreground doesn't even past the top of Sanguinius's belt... How is he more than half of the height? The guy is standing on the guy's shoulders and barely comes above the Primarch's head?
The guy in the foreground doesn't even past the top of Sanguinius's belt... How is he more than half of the height? The guy is standing on the guy's shoulders and barely comes above the Primarch's head?
kronk wrote:But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!
GW Marines have always been ~7 feet. [pic]
Of course, that doesn't mean that some fans - or novel writers - couldn't just make up other numbers that are more to their liking. It only becomes an issue if such things are treated as "universal facts".
But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!
Also, they don't eat a balanced diet like regular space marines. There is no GNC in the warp!
I'm sure you're trolling at this point, but I'd still like to make it clear that the paragraph that says they're seven feet tall is actually talking about normal Space Marines.
But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!
Also, they don't eat a balanced diet like regular space marines. There is no GNC in the warp!
Relevant reference wrote:The Adeptus Astartes were created as the Emperor's ultimate fighting force. Created from the gene-seed of the Primarchs, space marines stand seven feet tall with thickened bones, two hearts...
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
I believe the Primarchs are all different sizes, depending on their original gene pool and the situation they grew up in. The only Primarch I know of that is the same size as a Marine is Alpharius.
Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
"We"?
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.
(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)
This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.
Bromsy wrote: It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
Your entire point hinges on a baseless assumption, namely that the average human in 30k was sevenish feet tall.
Assuming Marines are 7ft tall...
Abaddon was placed at around 8-9ft in the first few HH books, and Horus a few feet taller than Abby, making him 11-12 feet, which is about twice the height of a normal human, which for those of us who haven't guessed it, is APOCALYPTICALLY HUGE.
I find hilarious how Primarch fan-boys are not content with the 10 foot figure from HH books (supported by the piece of art shown in this thread too.) To me 10' is already ludicrously tall, but that's the number BL chose to go with. Now, I have nothing against people dismissing individual odd pieces of fluff that do not fit their vision of the setting, but considering that the HH books are the number one source of Primarch's-are-über-demigods camp, it is funny they choose to ignore this. Of course, many people seem to have no idea what these numbers even actually mean.
... but (funny how there's always a but)...
...
... but this (and many explanations before) still do not take account of STC (as Lynata pointed out), nor of the fact that a "normal" Marines can wear a Terminator Armour as soon as he's promoted to that rank (or yet again, if he's a GK, he may wear either PA or TDA as per mission necessity)
Also, pictures used to prove a point take the great assumpt that they are "photos" of the 41st millennium... but they can be portraits, and also ones based on recounts and not from direct sight.... deciding that they are the only and one truth (and starting from there to make new portraits/sketches/movies/games) can be a big stretch...
We can safely assume that Astartes may grow up to 7'-7.5': it's more or less genetic engineering/hormone bombing: theoretically it might equalize (standardize) the height/bulk of the person-Astarte.
... err... but (bear with me ^^):
- Marines and Terminators undergo the same "genetic treatment", so there is no point in having different bulks of the man inside the armour (on the fact "Termies can't go inside a Rhino", it may be a simple structural reason: rhino's ramps/seats/floor/whatever couldn't simply keep integrity with the sheer weight of the terminator armour).
- PA clad Marines appear way bigger than "unarmoured" men (add armour bulk to their) and TDA ones look even bigger.
- Primarchs come from a different "genetic lab", but (yep, again) they were forced away -> they were not grown in a controlled way, so their size depends on the planet they grew on (gravity, oxygen %, toxins, antigens etc.).
- The Emperor... Mechanicum has hints he may be, among others,
Spoiler:
St. George from Lydda (from the scene of the knight vs the dragon on Old Earth)
and we know he was born in B.C. period, again on Old (well, Ancient ^^) Earth... and that he did not stand out until he actually decided to.
This makes reasonable to think that the Master of Mankind is of 'unassuming' (regular, plain...) size & bulk and that he became capable of altering the perception you have of him (could be born with the power, but probably he had to learn how to use it).
I can't speak to 40K fluff, because I don't really read the lore. I could guess from what I have read, but I won't. I think the real question might be - how tall are normal humans in the far future?
If you think about it, the average American is now fully 6 inches taller then a Neaderthal, who was alive 30,000 years ago. Factor in two things:
A.) We now have external influences with genetic manipulation, such as women growing breasts earlier and larger because of hormones in our diet (cow's milk). How might that work out over literally tens of thousands of years?
B.) If you look at North Korea, the average height has declined quite a bit since the armistice due to poor diet in comparison to South Korea. Imagine an impoverished planet, isolated, for literally hundreds or thousands of years.
So before we go to all these genetically modified superhumans, we might want to see if we can even establish a good human baseline.
Modern humans are not descended from Neanderthals.
Also, the amount of how much people have got bigger over time is usually exaggerated, and those numbers have to do with the average height of the population anyway. In past average heights were slightly lower, as there were swathes malnourished people. The well fed* people have always been tall, and we've pretty much maxed on what diet can do in many western countries. Average heights may still go up slightly, as older generations that might not have such a diet keep dying.
* (lots of protein and vitamins. Modern diet might be in many ways unhealthy and have too much fat and sugar, but we usually get enough protein and vitamins.)
Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
"We"?
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.
(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)
This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.
the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?
Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
"We"?
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.
(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)
This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.
the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?
Not if you.look at FW Deimos Rhinoes- the HH pattern. They are the plastic rhinoes with add-ons. In terms of in-game fluff, the older, smaller Rhinoes never existed. The Deimos was during the Heresy and was since modified to have square doors instead of circular, a stormbolter instead of 2 bolters and other things.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Emperor, as the mightiest psyker in the galaxy, could make himself as big as he damn well pleased.
He certainly could, so his 'real' size is hard to estimate.
What leads you toward those numbers?
Well, marine size is the standard GW seven foot figure, and rest is just my totally made up 'personal canon.'
195 cm is a good height for a really tall person who do not still seem freakishly huge. As for Primarchs, I've always imagined them as really big dudes, but still being able to interact somewhat normally with the human scale world, and anything past eight feet really is too big for that.
There is no "standard GW figure", there is one guy saying how things used to be two decades ago, and dozens of other descriptions since then. Fluff changes, and so has Marine height over the years; Gaunt is described as being extremely tall for a human, yet the Chaos Marines the Ghosts fight against still dwarf him, other BL novels give other numbers, the Space Marine game has them about 7.5' in armour, etc etc etc. And don't try any of this "hurr durr BL isn't official" nonsense, because the word straight from the horse's mouth(ie GW) is that there is no such thing as canon, or a hierarchy of fluff; if it gets published with the 40K brand on it, it's as "official" as anything else, and discrepancies must be handwaved-away as observer bias or distorted legends. "Between 7 and 8 feet" for a Marine in armour is about as accurate as we're going to get.
As for the Primarchs, given that I don't think we've been given an absolute height for any of them, that the rough descriptions of them vary from book to book, that at least some of them are able to vary their size and mass at will, and that most descriptions we do have of them are from the perspective of people in the world itself rather than omniscient narrator(people who are apparently struck dumb with awe at the mere sight of a Primarch so are hardly reliable), I suspect trying to figure out anything even remotely concrete is a futile exercise. Best to just go with "on average, about the same height difference to a marine as there is between a marine and a human" and leave it at that.
Seven feet is the GW design studio figure, and they've been really consistent with it over the years. BL numbers are completely random. I'm not saying that they're not 'official' in the sense that all GW fluff is. I just prefer to go with the seven foot number.
Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
"We"?
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.
(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)
This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.
the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?
Not if you.look at FW Deimos Rhinoes- the HH pattern. They are the plastic rhinoes with add-ons. In terms of in-game fluff, the older, smaller Rhinoes never existed. The Deimos was during the Heresy and was since modified to have square doors instead of circular, a stormbolter instead of 2 bolters and other things.
ausYenLoWang wrote:the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones...
According to whom?
In my eyes, one of the central themes in 40k is ancient tech turning relics - this includes Rhinos, originally designed and still used by ordinary humans, being emplyoed continuously over a span of thousands of years, as well as pieces of armour and weapons being re-issued and passed on from generation to generation, especially in the Adeptus Astartes.
Wildly varying figures in size would throw a wrench into this concept, 's all I'm saying. To me, that'd take something cool out of 40k, as it would necessitate stuff being comparatively new so that it can actually be used by people.
Also, everything that Yodhren and Crimson said. At the end, it's all a matter of preferences.
Crimson wrote: Seven feet is the GW design studio figure, and they've been really consistent with it over the years. BL numbers are completely random. I'm not saying that they're not 'official' in the sense that all GW fluff is. I just prefer to go with the seven foot number.
Sorry, I just reread your post, and I was being a bit to aggressive in my response; I missed the "my" before "made up personal canon" and thought you were implying that anyone who disagreed with your 7' preference was objectively wrong. My bad.
EDIT:
Ah OK Void__Dragon, I must have missed that; is it in one of the Dark Angels HH books?
Yeah, it's from Descent of Angels, right when the Lion meets his Legion for the first time. He is described as a little over three meters tall while unarmoured. Making him about ten feet tall.
Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!
So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?
"We"?
Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.
(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)
This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.
the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?
Not if you.look at FW Deimos Rhinoes- the HH pattern. They are the plastic rhinoes with add-ons. In terms of in-game fluff, the older, smaller Rhinoes never existed. The Deimos was during the Heresy and was since modified to have square doors instead of circular, a stormbolter instead of 2 bolters and other things.
uh, English please? Basically I heard from there was that the Deimos is apparently smaller than the plastic? No.
In terms of fluff, there was no smaller Rhino from 4th Ed or whatever. The Rhino has also been the size it now is right back to the Heresy. It may be a model but fluffwse it didn't exist.
Lynata wrote: Ogryns do not wear powered armour with large backpacks (this is important - Ogryns can actually bend when boarding, and from how it sounds they do), "up to 3 meters" is not "always 3 meters", and a Rhino looks like it has smaller doors than a Chimera.
Let's not argue, though. As I said, it's a matter of opinions and preferences, and the sources on all of these things will invariably deliver vague or conflicting information.
Ogryns don't like to board. when they do many a guardsmen ends up red mist and dinner. fluff wise ogryns don't like embarking in transports. my two cents
They don't like to, but they still do. They also don't tend to kill the guardsmen who lure them in, and definiutely not eat them, lol.
Also, I'll note that I've never actually heard of a Primarch entering the field of battle chilling in a rhino with his sons. They tend to enter it through personal aircraft.
BTW, humans getting bigger throughout history is a myth. Diet has an impact, yes, but the impact is averages of 5'6'' for a man vs. 5'10", and we haven't been getting bigger. We shrank, throughout most of the world, during the industrial age, and we are now getting back to normal. Romans were quite short compared to us, but they themselves comment on the "massive" gauls and germans (who had better, less grain-based diets and were the same height as modern humans.) Well-fed humans are as tall as modern westerners on average, and poor diets lead to us averaging 3-5 inches shorter. It's not a sliding scale where great diet results in a race of giants.
Also, primarchs or marines above a certain height is just not reasonable. They're described as occasionally having to stoop, but at 12+ feet you're looking at primarchs that can't even reasonably fit in a lot of buildings. Where are all the passages about them being doubled over when in buildings or being forced to smash through 8 by 3.5 foot door frames when invading normal human colonies?
Like, seriously, at 12 feet Sanguinius would not be able to stand in the room I'm in. At 20 feet, the Emperor would be as tall as my house.
You have to account for the Emperor having the most severe case of micropenis ever documented, which inspired him to design everything in his empire as being absurdly large and overtly spacious.
And you're right on your first point. In medieval times, the average commoner was shorter than the average modern human, yeah, but the better off nobles tended to be taller and healthier.
I think Primarchs are about 9-10ft tall. They seem to cause the same impression compared with a SM than a SM would cause compared to a human. Then there would be some which are taller and some which are smaller.
Alpharius is a particular case. In Index Astartes it is stated that Alpha Marines were taller than other marines. Asuming that Apharius was also small for a Primarch it was easy for other Marines to play Alpharius.
Magnus is also something special. In the battle of the Fang Magnus was already a Deamon Prince of Tzeench, so its size could be as changeable as he wanted. An in the novels "Thousand Sons" I got the impression that because of Magnus impressive powers it size actually seemed to vary.
Captain Spitzenberg wrote: I think Primarchs are about 9-10ft tall. They seem to cause the same impression compared with a SM than a SM would cause compared to a human. Then there would be some which are taller and some which are smaller.
Alpharius is a particular case. In Index Astartes it is stated that Alpha Marines were taller than other marines. Asuming that Apharius was also small for a Primarch it was easy for other Marines to play Alpharius.
Magnus is also something special. In the battle of the Fang Magnus was already a Deamon Prince of Tzeench, so its size could be as changeable as he wanted. An in the novels "Thousand Sons" I got the impression that because of Magnus impressive powers it size actually seemed to vary.
All space marines are about the same height but some are taller or shorter than others, same thing goes with the Primarchs. In most art and the books most Primarchs are easily bigger than space marine in terminator armor and about twice the size of a human (let's assume the humans are all about 6 feet tall) that puts most Primarchs, excluding ones such as Angron and Alparius Omegon, at about 11+ feet and most space marines at about 7-8 feet.
Rereading this thread, it astounds me how many people make these absolute statements on the fluff that they know nothing about.
Lion El'Jonson was ten feet tall unarmoured.
When entering the field of battle in Battle of the Fang, Magnus took on his "original" form, the one he had as a normal Primarch. He was five meters tall, which is almost seventeen feet.
We have statements on the heights of a (presumably) average Primarch and by far the tallest Primarch. So no one is taller than Magnus, and only Alpharius is likely to be notably shorter than the Lion.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
Don't forget the fact that according to "Vulkan Lives" if he didn't cloak himself in some form of disguise he would kill people simply by being near them, anywho back onto the Primarch size I think we can all agree that they are between 10 - 15 feet
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
Don't forget the fact that according to "Vulkan Lives" if he didn't cloak himself in some form of disguise he would kill people simply by being near them, anywho back onto the Primarch size I think we can all agree that they are between 10 - 15 feet
I'd take Vulkan lives with a pinch of salt, as unlike Kyme's normally great work, it was a fairly awful HH novel, what with Konrad Curze suddenly turning into the Joker instead of Batman and losing all the character building ADB put into him.
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
Where are these novels that say Marines are eight feet tall now?
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
Where are these novels that say Marines are eight feet tall now?
I haven't read them.
Modern one's that aren't HH. Death of Antagonis epsecially comes to mind, along with Siege of Castellax- and I think Legion of the Damned and the Space Marine collection have it refered to several times. IIRC, it also came up in Soul Hunter. Looking for them is a real bitch though, as they typically only crop up once in a story. Death of Antagonis is notable for featuring an Astartes as the main character who was something like ten feet tall, although he was a Black Dragon.
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
Don't forget the fact that according to "Vulkan Lives" if he didn't cloak himself in some form of disguise he would kill people simply by being near them, anywho back onto the Primarch size I think we can all agree that they are between 10 - 15 feet
I'd take Vulkan lives with a pinch of salt, as unlike Kyme's normally great work, it was a fairly awful HH novel, what with Konrad Curze suddenly turning into the Joker instead of Batman and losing all the character building ADB put into him.
Although yes in that one he is more like a person who kills and causes chaos than someone who tries to stop it, you do have to take into consideration that he basically wants to die and is probably immensely tormented by those vision/nightmares of his
So, if in this image we can see these smaller primarchs at or just under 20 feet and we know Horus is one of the largest primarchs, we then place Horus in terminator armor and he towers over them. In the previous art, we saw how the Emperor was much taller than terminator Horus, whilst only wearing power armor and this makes the Emperor stand in the upper 20s at least!
You cannot tell difference between 10 and 20 feet. This is why these threads are pointless. People have absolutely no fething clue about scale, proportion, or what numbers they're spewing actually mean.
Artwork is completely useless for any information on W40K, as nearly every single picture deviates heavily from the other's image, even within the same artist. The only reliable sources are written, as Black Library novels tend to keep a steady trend for things such as height, weight, and strength save some very strange outliers. The Black Library now near constantly describes Astartes as being eight feet tall, with the Primarchs ranging from under the tens (Alpharius and Omegon) to the teens (Russ) to "whatever the damn hell pleases them" (Magnus). IIRC, the Emperor also had completely control over the size of his body, or at least how people perceived him, considering he was a psyker capable of cowing the minds of millions.
Don't forget the fact that according to "Vulkan Lives" if he didn't cloak himself in some form of disguise he would kill people simply by being near them, anywho back onto the Primarch size I think we can all agree that they are between 10 - 15 feet
I'd take Vulkan lives with a pinch of salt, as unlike Kyme's normally great work, it was a fairly awful HH novel, what with Konrad Curze suddenly turning into the Joker instead of Batman and losing all the character building ADB put into him.
Although yes in that one he is more like a person who kills and causes chaos than someone who tries to stop it, you do have to take into consideration that he basically wants to die and is probably immensely tormented by those vision/nightmares of his
This has no bearing on a complete 180 on old fluff that was well established and viewed as the norm for said characters, instead of completely ignoring it.
Lynata wrote: Boy, that must suck not being able to ride in the tanks your army uses. .
This is actually my least favourite thing in the 40K fluff... Because we get these occasional mentions about how tall Marines and their progenitors are... and then the rest of the time, the writers seemingly don't even consider it at all. Aside from maybe one or two spots in the Horus Heresy books where a marine declines to sit because a chair is too small, there's never any concession made to their size. Nobody ever has to bend down to get through a doorway, Primarchs don't have any issues climbing about vehicles built for marines or regular humans... it's just completely overlooked.
There's a similar problem with Marine backpacks. Marines rolling around on the ground, diving through doorways and the like with never any consideration for the fact that they have a pack the size of a mini moke strapped to their back. Moreso for Chaos Marines...
Lynata wrote: Boy, that must suck not being able to ride in the tanks your army uses. .
This is actually my least favourite thing in the 40K fluff... Because we get these occasional mentions about how tall Marines and their progenitors are... and then the rest of the time, the writers seemingly don't even consider it at all. Aside from maybe one or two spots in the Horus Heresy books where a marine declines to sit because a chair is too small, there's never any concession made to their size. Nobody ever has to bend down to get through a doorway, Primarchs don't have any issues climbing about vehicles built for marines or regular humans... it's just completely overlooked.
There's a similar problem with Marine backpacks. Marines rolling around on the ground, diving through doorways and the like with never any consideration for the fact that they have a pack the size of a mini moke strapped to their back. Moreso for Chaos Marines...
You're forgetting that everything in W40K is absolutely gigantic, and your average doorway may be wide enough to park an entire Rhino in. All structures are built like gigantic Gothic churches with massive arches and doorways. It's not really the authors lacking a sense of scale, just people forgetting that everything in W40K is over sized
And I don't see how fitting them into Rhinos would be a problem, when he tabletop isn't to scale and the vehicles are built for them.
ausYenLoWang wrote: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MKIC-DEIMOS-PATTERN-RHINO.html <--- so this rhino here is the one thats the deimos that was used during the heracy etc etc, that is actually the smaller rhino? its not on the new chassis... so its the baby one that can hide away.. and is my point... someone got bigger or they would still have tiddly tanks
That tankis the current rhino with some different plates on the front and sides. It's not smaller.
ausYenLoWang wrote: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MKIC-DEIMOS-PATTERN-RHINO.html <--- so this rhino here is the one thats the deimos that was used during the heracy etc etc, that is actually the smaller rhino? its not on the new chassis... so its the baby one that can hide away.. and is my point... someone got bigger or they would still have tiddly tanks
That tankis the current rhino with some different plates on the front and sides. It's not smaller.
Again, the miniatures are first and foremost not to scale (and bear little resemblance to the fluff in the first place), but that variant is also larger. It's not expanded armor, the details show doors on the side which imply it being slightly wider, and exhaust is shoved out of the vehicle to save space. It's definitely larger internally, but not by much.
Let us say that Average Human is 2 meters tall...
Astartes are 2.5 to 3 meters tall.
Primarchs would be around 4 meters.
I believe Emperor would be up to 5.
This is just my interpretation based on the art, official and nonofficial. In my opinion regular Priamrch would be the same size as Dreadnought, maybe even a little taller witch is freaking huge.
That makes the Emperor 20% taller than a Carnifex... That's ridiculous.
Also for those saying that some of the Primarchs are 20ft tall, wth! That's the same hieght as a Riptide... Seriously look at a Riptide, then a Marine, then back to the Riptide, then back to the Marine, now back at the Riptide. Yeah not happening...
Let us say that Average Human is 2 meters tall...
Astartes are 2.5 to 3 meters tall.
Primarchs would be around 4 meters.
I believe Emperor would be up to 5.
This is just my interpretation based on the art, official and nonofficial. In my opinion regular Priamrch would be the same size as Dreadnought, maybe even a little taller witch is freaking huge.
That makes the Emperor 20% taller than a Carnifex... That's ridiculous.
Also for those saying that some of the Primarchs are 20ft tall, wth! That's the same hieght as a Riptide... Seriously look at a Riptide, then a Marine, then back to the Riptide, then back to the Marine, now back at the Riptide. Yeah not happening...
The Carnifex thing seems OK.
After all, a Carnifex is very bent forward. Most of its mass comes from being a big beetle dinosaur. Just compare it to the Trygon. The Carni is not -that- tall. Not saying that the Emperor should be taller. Just that it is not as tall as it might seem.
For simplicity, I always imagined it was something like a meter between each 'stage'
To illustrate, the above numbers would result in something like this, with other races added for comparison (Also my interpretation of them, mind you)
Spoiler:
DoWII's scaled Marines also look decent; here a Plague Marine Champion and a Catachan Devil (A very big and strong man)
Spoiler:
Not to everyone's liking I'm sure, but hey, it's my interpretation. Feel free to shoot me for it.
I always thought making Marines massive would make sense. 40K's architecture is massively oversized anyway, and the disadvantages they would get in that they'd be hit easier would be more than compensated for since they could match some of the horrors of the galaxy at their own game in melee.
Let us say that Average Human is 2 meters tall...
Astartes are 2.5 to 3 meters tall.
Primarchs would be around 4 meters.
I believe Emperor would be up to 5.
This is just my interpretation based on the art, official and nonofficial. In my opinion regular Priamrch would be the same size as Dreadnought, maybe even a little taller witch is freaking huge.
That makes the Emperor 20% taller than a Carnifex... That's ridiculous.
Also for those saying that some of the Primarchs are 20ft tall, wth! That's the same hieght as a Riptide... Seriously look at a Riptide, then a Marine, then back to the Riptide, then back to the Marine, now back at the Riptide. Yeah not happening...
The Carnifex thing seems OK.
After all, a Carnifex is very bent forward. Most of its mass comes from being a big beetle dinosaur. Just compare it to the Trygon. The Carni is not -that- tall. Not saying that the Emperor should be taller. Just that it is not as tall as it might seem.
For simplicity, I always imagined it was something like a meter between each 'stage'
To illustrate, the above numbers would result in something like this, with other races added for comparison (Also my interpretation of them, mind you)
Spoiler:
DoWII's scaled Marines also look decent; here a Plague Marine Champion and a Catachan Devil (A very big and strong man)
Spoiler:
Not to everyone's liking I'm sure, but hey, it's my interpretation. Feel free to shoot me for it.
I always thought making Marines massive would make sense. 40K's architecture is massively oversized anyway, and the disadvantages they would get in that they'd be hit easier would be more than compensated for since they could match some of the horrors of the galaxy at their own game in melee.
Well firstly the Plague marine is standing closer than the catachan devil, and in most 40k books it is said that they said that space marines are either half again as tall or a a third again as tall, which puts space marines at about 7-8.5 feet. So no they are not twice the size of a normal human
Well firstly the Plague marine is standing closer than the catachan devil, and in most 40k books it is said that they said that space marines are either half again as tall or a a third again as tall, which puts space marines at about 7-8.5 feet. So no they are not twice the size of a normal human
I never said that they were twice as tall. In my interpretation, they'd be something like 60% taller (1.8 m VS 2.8 m)
The Plague Marine is not actually standing closer, it is the perspective (And my lazy copy+pasting) playing tricks. It seems like he does, but the catachan just stands on higher ground (You can see that there is a slope)
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Alpharius wrote: ADB has got the Night Lords at 3 meters tall in armor in the excellent series of books he wrote on them.
Zande4 wrote: Also for those saying that some of the Primarchs are 20ft tall, wth! That's the same hieght as a Riptide... Seriously look at a Riptide, then a Marine, then back to the Riptide, then back to the Marine, now back at the Riptide. Yeah not happening...
If a 1" tall marine is supposed to be 8' tall, a Riptide is considerably more than 20' tall...
Zande4 wrote: Also for those saying that some of the Primarchs are 20ft tall, wth! That's the same hieght as a Riptide... Seriously look at a Riptide, then a Marine, then back to the Riptide, then back to the Marine, now back at the Riptide. Yeah not happening...
If a 1" tall marine is supposed to be 8' tall, a Riptide is considerably more than 20' tall...
I was kinda just scaling them off the picture in the Tau codex where it's standing next to the other suits and the pilot. How ever if we're scaling off models then its probably more like 22 - 24ft considering the Malanthrope is listed as 20ft in IA: 4.
However on that note I'd like the people who are saying they're 20ft to go outside and look at your house/ apartment what ever and imagine a 6m/20ft Human Being standing next to it... That's about the size of Peter Jackson's King Kong.
There seems to be some belief that the Emperor was taller than his Primarchs among some in this thread. That isn't necessarily true. He was explicitly shorter than Magnus for example, but then, so was everyone.
Perhaps the novel "Master of Mankind" will shed some form of light on him in the usual incomprehensible and vague manner. Which will no doubt produce further speculative threads.
Having only read page 1 there seems to be a general consensus that Alpharius and Omegon were the smallest primarchs, but I remember that as the Alpha legion were the latest legion to be constructed/supplied with (clones) marines, they were also the tallest of all the legion's marines. (Does anyone remembers this as well?)
But surely Alpharius and Omegon are taller than the normal marines in their own legion?
Yes, of course. Alpharius and Omegon were still "sons" of The Emperor and capable of great feats of strength. They just appeared to be the only Primarchs that embraced deception into their combat style.
Isn't Vulkan described as being the largest in Vulkan Lives? Heck, Mr. Egan mentioned that when designing his model. He explicitly discussed that as the reason behind Vulkan being as big, in power armor, as Horus is in terminator armor.
brassangel wrote: Isn't Vulkan described as being the largest in Vulkan Lives? Heck, Mr. Egan mentioned that when designing his model. He explicitly discussed that as the reason behind Vulkan being as big, in power armor, as Horus is in terminator armor.
Magnus is the largest without question. He was noted as being a giant even among the Primarchs.
brassangel wrote: Isn't Vulkan described as being the largest in Vulkan Lives? Heck, Mr. Egan mentioned that when designing his model. He explicitly discussed that as the reason behind Vulkan being as big, in power armor, as Horus is in terminator armor.
Magnus is the largest without question. He was noted as being a giant even among the Primarchs.
It appears this has been retconned. Simon Egan did indeed outright state Vulkan is the largest, as large in PA as Horus is in TDA.
Let us say that Average Human is 2 meters tall...
Astartes are 2.5 to 3 meters tall.
Primarchs would be around 4 meters.
I believe Emperor would be up to 5.
This is just my interpretation based on the art, official and nonofficial. In my opinion regular Priamrch would be the same size as Dreadnought, maybe even a little taller witch is freaking huge.
2 metes is a very tall human.
consider that during the time of the great crusade, most humans were not as well fed as they are today.
given the slim pickings I would say 1.65 meters for men and 1.5 meters for women.
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Chaospling wrote: Having only read page 1 there seems to be a general consensus that Alpharius and Omegon were the smallest primarchs, but I remember that as the Alpha legion were the latest legion to be constructed/supplied with (clones) marines, they were also the tallest of all the legion's marines. (Does anyone remembers this as well?)
But surely Alpharius and Omegon are taller than the normal marines in their own legion?
When Alpharius(or Omegon) attacked and boarded Horus's battle barge and stormed the bridge he was described as being slightly taller than his band of bandits(who were mere mortals).
It is likely that Alpharius picked the tallest of his band to be his bodyguard but that doesnt make him a giant, probably just Basketball player height.
Of course he also was not raised on a planet, he grew up in space. It is possible he never got enough to eat and never reached full grown.
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the color purple wrote: BTW, humans getting bigger throughout history is a myth. Diet has an impact, yes, but the impact is averages of 5'6'' for a man vs. 5'10", and we haven't been getting bigger. We shrank, throughout most of the world, during the industrial age, and we are now getting back to normal. Romans were quite short compared to us, but they themselves comment on the "massive" gauls and germans (who had better, less grain-based diets and were the same height as modern humans.) Well-fed humans are as tall as modern westerners on average, and poor diets lead to us averaging 3-5 inches shorter. It's not a sliding scale where great diet results in a race of giants.
to a point yes. TheThe point is that if most humans are 5'6" then if a marine is 7" he would tower over people. Even 6.5 he would still be a giant. reasonable rich/middle class today is taller on average than most before, as the diet is better. It isnt that large a difference but it is there.
Also, primarchs or marines above a certain height is just not reasonable. They're described as occasionally having to stoop, but at 12+ feet you're looking at primarchs that can't even reasonably fit in a lot of buildings. Where are all the passages about them being doubled over when in buildings or being forced to smash through 8 by 3.5 foot door frames when invading normal human colonies?
Like, seriously, at 12 feet Sanguinius would not be able to stand in the room I'm in. At 20 feet, the Emperor would be as tall as my house.
yes, people starting with an average of 6ft or 2 meters are going to end up way out of wack with scale.
If human males are 5.5 ft, marines can be 6.5 to 7. Primarch can be 7 to 8.5(mostly 7.5-8 ) and the empoeror can be 8.
In the greater scale of things, there are 8ft tall humans. Just very very few of them. On a planet with 7 billion people there are a dozen people living today who are 8ft tall. Another point, regular humans who are 8ft tall are not only rare but they are sickly. Their life expectancy is about 25 years, or basically 5 years after they reach their full height. A marine would have no such problems with a larger heart(or do they have multiple)
Let us say that Average Human is 2 meters tall...
Astartes are 2.5 to 3 meters tall.
Primarchs would be around 4 meters.
I believe Emperor would be up to 5.
This is just my interpretation based on the art, official and nonofficial. In my opinion regular Priamrch would be the same size as Dreadnought, maybe even a little taller witch is freaking huge.
What. The Emperor has no size, he appears to some as being human sized, or to others the size of a primarch. And Astartes range from 2.2 Meters to an absolute cap of 2.7. Do you even meter?
Well, I'm not going to go through several books to see whether it is there. Google only finds you and 4chan as sources for this claim. I remain doubtful.
Everything I've seen puts an average unarmored marine at 210cm to 230cm with power armor adding 10cm to 30cm and terminator armor adding 50cm to 100cm.
Magnus has always been a freaky giant at 4m to 5m.
As a comparison an Ogrin is 250cm to 300cm and a human male is anywhere between 150cm to 210cm.
All wrong, the average imperial is only 3ft tall all those "massive" cathedrals? Normal human sized. Years of inbreeding on Terra resulted in midgets who then used gene therapy to properly proportion their limbs.
Therefore
Marines are 5ft
Primarchs 6ft
Magnus 7ft
Empy 6ft
This is based on absolutely nothing mind you but a guy at GW confirmed it for me, he is in the next town over you dont know him.
Pilau Rice wrote: I like the notion of that picture but the Primarchs seem ridiculously big in it. I know they are supposed to be big, stupid big, but that seems crazy.
And if we assume the robed people are normal humans, then those Primarchs are about ten feet tall. There were some people saying that normal marines should be 13 feet tall and Primarchs 20! Yeah...
I pointed this out on another thread, but it'd be a huge hassle to fit 13ft tall people into any kind of normal human infrastructure. Imagine SM trying to raid an Eldar base, they'd be crawling on hands and knees through the buildings. And they can't just burst through and walk around the floor of the second story in a building. The best SM defense would just be low ceilings.
Pilau Rice wrote: I like the notion of that picture but the Primarchs seem ridiculously big in it. I know they are supposed to be big, stupid big, but that seems crazy.
And if we assume the robed people are normal humans, then those Primarchs are about ten feet tall. There were some people saying that normal marines should be 13 feet tall and Primarchs 20! Yeah...
I pointed this out on another thread, but it'd be a huge hassle to fit 13ft tall people into any kind of normal human infrastructure. Imagine SM trying to raid an Eldar base, they'd be crawling on hands and knees through the buildings. And they can't just burst through and walk around the floor of the second story in a building. The best SM defense would just be low ceilings.
13 ft is obviously way over the top for a Marine, no contesting that, but at ~9 ft they could still operate fairly well in their intended combat environments.
Pilau Rice wrote: I like the notion of that picture but the Primarchs seem ridiculously big in it. I know they are supposed to be big, stupid big, but that seems crazy.
And if we assume the robed people are normal humans, then those Primarchs are about ten feet tall. There were some people saying that normal marines should be 13 feet tall and Primarchs 20! Yeah...
I pointed this out on another thread, but it'd be a huge hassle to fit 13ft tall people into any kind of normal human infrastructure. Imagine SM trying to raid an Eldar base, they'd be crawling on hands and knees through the buildings. And they can't just burst through and walk around the floor of the second story in a building. The best SM defense would just be low ceilings.
I take it that you didn't get the memo that the architecture of every single race is absolutely gigantic and Astartes fit through it just fine? I mean bro, do you even Eldar?
Spoiler:
Hell of all the races after the Imperium, Eldar buildings are absolutely gigantic and incredibly large.... hence why Eldar Wraithlords can be used to defend a Craftworld. Or how Tyranids could invade one. Eldar deploy titans on their craftworlds when defense is called for. The only race that Astartes might find themselves having trouble getting through doors is those of the Tau. And Astartes are perfectly capable just running right through walls anyway, so it's not like doors are needed.
Pilau Rice wrote: I like the notion of that picture but the Primarchs seem ridiculously big in it. I know they are supposed to be big, stupid big, but that seems crazy.
And if we assume the robed people are normal humans, then those Primarchs are about ten feet tall. There were some people saying that normal marines should be 13 feet tall and Primarchs 20! Yeah...
I pointed this out on another thread, but it'd be a huge hassle to fit 13ft tall people into any kind of normal human infrastructure. Imagine SM trying to raid an Eldar base, they'd be crawling on hands and knees through the buildings. And they can't just burst through and walk around the floor of the second story in a building. The best SM defense would just be low ceilings.
Eldar are taller than humans, most being about 2 meters at the minimum.
Ashiraya wrote: 274.32 cm seems like a healthy average for SM.
Ogryn should stand taller than 3m, shouldn't they? They are twice the height of a man, yes? So about 3,6m?
270cm+ is a bit tall for an armored marine but not imposible, 230cm or 240cm in armor is much more likely. (The only good refeince I could find put a fully armored marine at 230cm.)
Yep Orgryn don't normally get above 3m, checked a couple of refrences I have, numbers get a little spotty and hard to find after late 3rd/early 4th edition though.
Fun note Ratlings are 130cm and Squats (May they rest in peace) are 140cm.
A Dreadnought is 430cm.
As big as the author wants them to be, while still somehow letting them fit through doors meant for normal people, even though they shouldn't be able to.
Melissia wrote: As big as the author wants them to be, while still somehow letting them fit through doors meant for normal people, even though they shouldn't be able to.
40k architecture is gothic. Like real gothic buildings, everything is overbuilt and doors meant for "normal people" could let an elephant through.
Melissia wrote: As big as the author wants them to be, while still somehow letting them fit through doors meant for normal people, even though they shouldn't be able to.
40k architecture is gothic. Like real gothic buildings, everything is overbuilt and doors meant for "normal people" could let an elephant through.
Does that also go for mines, space ships, bunkers, and all sorts of other places that they'd be expected to go?
Melissia wrote: As big as the author wants them to be, while still somehow letting them fit through doors meant for normal people, even though they shouldn't be able to.
40k architecture is gothic. Like real gothic buildings, everything is overbuilt and doors meant for "normal people" could let an elephant through.
Does that also go for mines, space ships, bunkers, and all sorts of other places that they'd be expected to go?
How much of 40k do you even know of? These are the guys with church cathedrals for bridges. For mines, it's got to fit the large, bulky videos the Admech fields. If not, well, that's why the Emperor gave you melta charges.
The writers don't think that far ahead. In fact, I think the writers don't even have a set size in mind. Like the Emepror, the size of the primarchs changes depending on the needs of the narrative.
Melissia wrote: The writers don't think that far ahead. In fact, I think the writers don't even have a set size in mind. Like the Emepror, the size of the primarchs changes depending on the needs of the narrative.
I think it's safe to say that they're at the least larger than regular Marines. I've never seen any of the Primarchs sans Alpharius/Omegon ever be portrayed or described as the same size as an Astartes. I have seen them frequently be described as much larger, though. Some decent art scaling:
BlaxicanX wrote: I think it's safe to say that they're at the least larger than regular Marines. I've never seen any of the Primarchs sans Alpharius/Omegon ever be portrayed or described as the same size as an Astartes. I have seen them frequently be described as much larger, though. Some decent art scaling:
While I generally abhor doing so, it's better to go off the actual models simply to get a general idea, even if GW's scaling is completely screwed up. HH book cover art is more inconsistent than Marvel, to the point that scenes on the cover often never even happen in the book.
Melissia wrote: Marvel's still not as inconsistent as DC when it comes to DC's depiction of Wonder Woman, but I digress.
What's the scale of the models?
Ever tried to shove ten marines into a land raider? Or how space marine height doesn't vary at all, is barely taller than guardsmen, guardsmen mind you who are horrible mutants with gigantic, bulbous heads. Or bolters no way in hell firing .75 bolts.
Wyzilla wrote: While I generally abhor doing so, it's better to go off the actual models simply to get a general idea, even if GW's scaling is completely screwed up
As in, what's the tabletop's scale when it comes to the primarchs?
Wyzilla wrote: While I generally abhor doing so, it's better to go off the actual models simply to get a general idea, even if GW's scaling is completely screwed up
As in, what's the tabletop's scale when it comes to the primarchs?
Hm. Actually, accounting for the difference in base heights, that looks like a fairly good representation to how the primarchs are in my mind compared to the normal marines.
Melissia wrote: Hm. Actually, accounting for the difference in base heights, that looks like a fairly good representation to how the primarchs are in my mind compared to the normal marines.
It also varies on the primarch. Vulkan is ginormous, while angron, if he was standing upright, would probably be much shorter.
But yes, Forge World is the model company we deserve.
I consider Primarchs about 33% taller than their Marines on average, but outliers can be significant, with Alpharius and Omegon being shorter in contrast to Magnus and Vulkan who are larger.
regarding Marine Height BTW, the 6th edition CSM codex states unambigiously that Space Marines are 7 feet tall. page 36 first paragraph for referance. the exact quote is
..The Space Marines stand 7 feet tall, with thickened bones, two hearts, hyperdense muscles and all manner of special organs that allow them to survive and fight in the most hostile conditions
BrianDavion wrote: regarding Marine Height BTW, the 6th edition CSM codex states unambigiously that Space Marines are 7 feet tall. page 36 first paragraph for referance. the exact quote is
..The Space Marines stand 7 feet tall, with thickened bones, two hearts, hyperdense muscles and all manner of special organs that allow them to survive and fight in the most hostile conditions
Clearly in-universe propaganda. Don't trust the foul texts of Chaos.
So Magnus is the tallest while Vulkan is the "largest", yes? I know Vulkan's fluff came much later than the others, as he really didn't have much on his own. His model is beautifully large though, even compared to Horus. From Lexicanum:
"Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs."
Ashiraya wrote: I consider Primarchs about 33% taller than their Marines on average, but outliers can be significant, with Alpharius and Omegon being shorter in contrast to Magnus and Vulkan who are larger.
Alpharius is only slightly taller than a large man.
At no point is the Lion said to be short for a Primarch, like Alpharius or Angron. Magnus being much larger fits with his characterization as a "giant" among the Primarchs. At ten feet tall he would be a full three feet taller than an armoured Marine.
It's also funny that people like Simon Egan (who works on 40k products) know less about the setting than I do. Vulkan being the "largest" of the Primarchs doesn't just contradict Magnus being described as the largest, it also contradicts a direct comparison to Ferrus Manus. In Fulgrim Manus is directly stated to be taller and wider than Vulkan, and much more so than Corax.
Void__Dragon wrote: At no point is the Lion said to be short for a Primarch, like Alpharius or Angron. Magnus being much larger fits with his characterization as a "giant" among the Primarchs. At ten feet tall he would be a full three feet taller than an armoured Marine.
It's also funny that people like Simon Egan (who works on 40k products) know less about the setting than I do. Vulkan being the "largest" of the Primarchs doesn't just contradict Magnus being described as the largest, it also contradicts a direct comparison to Ferrus Manus. In Fulgrim Manus is directly stated to be taller and wider than Vulkan, and much more so than Corax.
That's not Simon Egan's fault. There are some Black Library sources that claim Vulkan is the largest and strongest of all the primarchs.
Crimson wrote: I always hated the idea that Emperor was somehow super huge. Humans are not orks, they do not decide leadership based on who is biggest. Emperor is a master psyker and a strategist. I'd Imagine him to be much more like a Jedi Knight than Incredible Hulk.
Very cool insight. It seems like our BL authors have the primitive mentality of an Ork. Or at least they think the 13 year olds reading BL books do. Leaders should be tall, but not f***huge.
I'd like the average male Imperial to be 1.8, cos those proportions are pretty good-looking. Space Marines maybe 2.0, and Primarchs 2.15, like Shaq.
Void__Dragon wrote: At no point is the Lion said to be short for a Primarch, like Alpharius or Angron. Magnus being much larger fits with his characterization as a "giant" among the Primarchs. At ten feet tall he would be a full three feet taller than an armoured Marine.
It's also funny that people like Simon Egan (who works on 40k products) know less about the setting than I do. Vulkan being the "largest" of the Primarchs doesn't just contradict Magnus being described as the largest, it also contradicts a direct comparison to Ferrus Manus. In Fulgrim Manus is directly stated to be taller and wider than Vulkan, and much more so than Corax.
Crimson wrote: I always hated the idea that Emperor was somehow super huge. Humans are not orks, they do not decide leadership based on who is biggest. Emperor is a master psyker and a strategist. I'd Imagine him to be much more like a Jedi Knight than Incredible Hulk.
Very cool insight. It seems like our BL authors have the primitive mentality of an Ork. Or at least they think the 13 year olds reading BL books do. Leaders should be tall, but not f***huge.
I'd like the average male Imperial to be 1.8, cos those proportions are pretty good-looking. Space Marines maybe 2.0, and Primarchs 2.15, like Shaq.
why do you guys keep making the average man a midget...... the average full grown male is roughly 6 foot. about 190-230 pounds when fit...... so they say most people come to a astres should so some times lower so this wold make them roughly 6.4 or 6.6 ish and then in the hh they mention the differnece between a human to astres is the same as astres to primarch so about 7.6 ish.
Void__Dragon wrote: At no point is the Lion said to be short for a Primarch, like Alpharius or Angron. Magnus being much larger fits with his characterization as a "giant" among the Primarchs. At ten feet tall he would be a full three feet taller than an armoured Marine.
It's also funny that people like Simon Egan (who works on 40k products) know less about the setting than I do. Vulkan being the "largest" of the Primarchs doesn't just contradict Magnus being described as the largest, it also contradicts a direct comparison to Ferrus Manus. In Fulgrim Manus is directly stated to be taller and wider than Vulkan, and much more so than Corax.
Angron was short?
Remember, Stalin was shorter than Napoleon at stood at an incredible height of 5'4.
Crimson wrote: I always hated the idea that Emperor was somehow super huge. Humans are not orks, they do not decide leadership based on who is biggest. Emperor is a master psyker and a strategist. I'd Imagine him to be much more like a Jedi Knight than Incredible Hulk.
Very cool insight. It seems like our BL authors have the primitive mentality of an Ork. Or at least they think the 13 year olds reading BL books do. Leaders should be tall, but not f***huge.
I'd like the average male Imperial to be 1.8, cos those proportions are pretty good-looking. Space Marines maybe 2.0, and Primarchs 2.15, like Shaq.
why do you guys keep making the average man a midget...... the average full grown male is roughly 6 foot. about 190-230 pounds when fit...... so they say most people come to a astres should so some times lower so this wold make them roughly 6.4 or 6.6 ish and then in the hh they mention the differnece between a human to astres is the same as astres to primarch so about 7.6 ish.
That's assuming Earth-like conditions and food. Given the conditions most Hive Cities are in, it's likely many people are a
not as well fed as we are today. Also bear in mind planets with larger gravity will stunt growth (see Squats) while those with smaller gravity will allow humans go grow taller but spindlier (Tau Air caste for example).
But then there is the issue that the lifespan of normal people still ends up at 120 years. So health and diet may be better despite the idea that life is terrible.
PhillyT wrote: But then there is the issue that the lifespan of normal people still ends up at 120 years. So health and diet may be better despite the idea that life is terrible.
That's the average. Averages are not mathematical certainties, it's just a numbers trick.
So you have a bunch of people dying at 40 due to toxic environments and malnutrition, and you have a bunch of wealthy people living to 200 because of better medical technology, nutrition, rejuvenat treatments, etc. Add all those people on both sides up and your average age is 120 (simplified to 240/2=120).
PhillyT wrote: But then there is the issue that the lifespan of normal people still ends up at 120 years. So health and diet may be better despite the idea that life is terrible.
That's the average. Averages are not mathematical certainties, it's just a numbers trick.
So you have a bunch of people dying at 40 due to toxic environments and malnutrition, and you have a bunch of wealthy people living to 200 because of better medical technology, nutrition, rejuvenat treatments, etc. Add all those people on both sides up and your average age is 120 (simplified to 240/2=120).
Do you count in the fact that probably a lot of Imperial citizens die before the age of five due to violence, starvation and other nasty stuff happening in the massive underhives?
PhillyT wrote: But then there is the issue that the lifespan of normal people still ends up at 120 years. So health and diet may be better despite the idea that life is terrible.
That's the average. Averages are not mathematical certainties, it's just a numbers trick.
So you have a bunch of people dying at 40 due to toxic environments and malnutrition, and you have a bunch of wealthy people living to 200 because of better medical technology, nutrition, rejuvenat treatments, etc. Add all those people on both sides up and your average age is 120 (simplified to 240/2=120).
Do you count in the fact that probably a lot of Imperial citizens die before the age of five due to violence, starvation and other nasty stuff happening in the massive underhives?
Yes, which is then counter-balanced by people like Eisenhorn reaching 400+ years, or Saint Bassilus, who made it to a thousand years or so. So the "average" still works out to 120.
As a history teacher I often remind my students that average like span and average life span minus those who die below age ten are vastly different in many periods of human history.
Yep. Like I mentioned up-thread, the "average" lifespan is just a mathematical model, not actual truth.
There is, for example, the belief that people dropped dead at 35 in the Middle Ages. Not true. A lot of people ( I mean a lot) died before the age of 2 but, if you made it past that, you had a good chance of making it to 70.
What's the average between 2 and 70? 36. That does not mean that people were naturally dropping like flies in their 30s, it's just the way the math shakes out.
why do you guys keep making the average man a midget...... the average full grown male is roughly 6 foot. about 190-230 pounds when fit...... so they say most people come to a astres should so some times lower so this wold make them roughly 6.4 or 6.6 ish and then in the hh they mention the differnece between a human to astres is the same as astres to primarch so about 7.6 ish.
The average American man is 5'9"-5'11". Leaning closer to the former.
Most countries don't reach six feet in terms of average height.
Horus was much bigger than Andre the Giant. Even unarmoured he could cradle him like a kid.
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PhillyT wrote: But then there is the issue that the lifespan of normal people still ends up at 120 years. So health and diet may be better despite the idea that life is terrible.
Averages are a poor way to determine how tall most people are.
The median is a better method but it's basically never used.
I have read in the books that astartes are 3 meters tall.
That is extremely tall.
I once met a guy that was so tall, i was dumbstruck, i reached him so i looked straight at his chest.
I absolutely had to talk about his height, and he told me he was told ten times a day how tall he is.
He said he is 2 meters 10 centimeters. I am 170 cm, and i looked straight at his chest, and he seemed like a giant to me, his hands soo big and my neck was bent backwards to meet his eyes.
I mean, what seems so little in theory, seems so much bigger in real life.
40 cm, not so much, but damn, in real life it is alot, because his head is bigger, his hands and feet are bigger, arms and chest thicker.
Lynata wrote: Boy, that must suck not being able to ride in the tanks your army uses.
But I suppose this is the point where I should throw in that no, we do not have any sort of definite numbers, since very few things in 40k are definite. Rather, all we know and all we read is "rumors, distorted legends and half-truths", to quote Marc Gascoigne.
And personally, the larger people are described as, and the more insane stunts they supposedly pull off, the more I am willing to believe it's one of those legends.
In the end, however, we all have to make our own call on that. There is no truth on this matter, merely opinions and preferences.
Well the primarchs were the Second most influence beings in a basically galaxy spanning civilization adorned by many to be gods. I fairly sure they had the ability to commission tanks that can fit like a stormblade size rhino.
