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 Pilau Rice wrote:
I like the notion of that picture but the Primarchs seem ridiculously big in it. I know they are supposed to be big, stupid big, but that seems crazy.

And if we assume the robed people are normal humans, then those Primarchs are about ten feet tall. There were some people saying that normal marines should be 13 feet tall and Primarchs 20! Yeah...

 Crimson wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
See my photographic evidence. If SM were 7ft tall, that'd make those humans 3.5 feet tall...

No it wouldn't. Those Primarchs are bigger than regular space marines, and the normal human are clearly more than half of the height of the Primarchs. I really wouldn't start making any definite assumptions based on one piece of art, but Primarch height here seems to match quite well with the ten* feet apparently mentioned in some HH book. Marines are still seven feet, of course.

(* too much for my liking, but at least it shows some consistency in their vision.)

The guy in the foreground doesn't even past the top of Sanguinius's belt... How is he more than half of the height? The guy is standing on the guy's shoulders and barely comes above the Primarch's head?

 Deadshot wrote:

SMs are 7ft. C:CSM page 36.

But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!


Also, they don't eat a balanced diet like regular space marines. There is no GNC in the warp!

 Alfndrate wrote:

The guy in the foreground doesn't even past the top of Sanguinius's belt... How is he more than half of the height? The guy is standing on the guy's shoulders and barely comes above the Primarch's head?

 Crimson wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

The guy in the foreground doesn't even past the top of Sanguinius's belt... How is he more than half of the height? The guy is standing on the guy's shoulders and barely comes above the Primarch's head?

Work blocked HAHA!

kronk wrote:But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!

GW Marines have always been ~7 feet. [pic]
Of course, that doesn't mean that some fans - or novel writers - couldn't just make up other numbers that are more to their liking.
It only becomes an issue if such things are treated as "universal facts".

 kronk wrote:

But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!


Also, they don't eat a balanced diet like regular space marines. There is no GNC in the warp!

I'm sure you're trolling at this point, but I'd still like to make it clear that the paragraph that says they're seven feet tall is actually talking about normal Space Marines.

 kronk wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SMs are 7ft. C:CSM page 36.

But those are Chaos Space Marines. The warp can have strange effects on people in the warp!


Also, they don't eat a balanced diet like regular space marines. There is no GNC in the warp!

Relevant reference wrote:The Adeptus Astartes were created as the Emperor's ultimate fighting force. Created from the gene-seed of the Primarchs, space marines stand seven feet tall with thickened bones, two hearts...

It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

Well it kneeled if i remember correctly. but Im still of the mind the Big E can change as he see's fit. In my mind heres how it is.

Marines 7-8ft
Smaller Primarchs: 9-11
Run of the Mill Primarchs 12-13
Magnus could hit low 14 in my mind

I believe the Primarchs are all different sizes, depending on their original gene pool and the situation they grew up in. The only Primarch I know of that is the same size as a Marine is Alpharius.

Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

"We"?

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.

(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)

This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.

 Bromsy wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

Your entire point hinges on a baseless assumption, namely that the average human in 30k was sevenish feet tall.

Assuming Marines are 7ft tall...
Abaddon was placed at around 8-9ft in the first few HH books, and Horus a few feet taller than Abby, making him 11-12 feet, which is about twice the height of a normal human, which for those of us who haven't guessed it, is APOCALYPTICALLY HUGE.

Big E I'd put at 13-15 feet tall.

Marine 7.5ft
Terminator 8.5
Primarch 9.5
Emperor 3ft4

I find hilarious how Primarch fan-boys are not content with the 10 foot figure from HH books (supported by the piece of art shown in this thread too.) To me 10' is already ludicrously tall, but that's the number BL chose to go with. Now, I have nothing against people dismissing individual odd pieces of fluff that do not fit their vision of the setting, but considering that the HH books are the number one source of Primarch's-are-über-demigods camp, it is funny they choose to ignore this. Of course, many people seem to have no idea what these numbers even actually mean.

Mellow wrote:
Marine 7.5ft
Terminator 8.5
Primarch 9.5
Emperor 3ft4

Kind of an absolute, this is

... but (funny how there's always a but)...
...
... but this (and many explanations before) still do not take account of STC (as Lynata pointed out), nor of the fact that a "normal" Marines can wear a Terminator Armour as soon as he's promoted to that rank (or yet again, if he's a GK, he may wear either PA or TDA as per mission necessity)

Also, pictures used to prove a point take the great assumpt that they are "photos" of the 41st millennium... but they can be portraits, and also ones based on recounts and not from direct sight.... deciding that they are the only and one truth (and starting from there to make new portraits/sketches/movies/games) can be a big stretch...

We can safely assume that Astartes may grow up to 7'-7.5': it's more or less genetic engineering/hormone bombing: theoretically it might equalize (standardize) the height/bulk of the person-Astarte.

... err... but (bear with me ^^):
- Marines and Terminators undergo the same "genetic treatment", so there is no point in having different bulks of the man inside the armour (on the fact "Termies can't go inside a Rhino", it may be a simple structural reason: rhino's ramps/seats/floor/whatever couldn't simply keep integrity with the sheer weight of the terminator armour).
- PA clad Marines appear way bigger than "unarmoured" men (add armour bulk to their) and TDA ones look even bigger.
- Primarchs come from a different "genetic lab", but (yep, again) they were forced away -> they were not grown in a controlled way, so their size depends on the planet they grew on (gravity, oxygen %, toxins, antigens etc.).
- The Emperor... Mechanicum has hints he may be, among others, and we know he was born in B.C. period, again on Old (well, Ancient ^^) Earth... and that he did not stand out until he actually decided to.
This makes reasonable to think that the Master of Mankind is of 'unassuming' (regular, plain...) size & bulk and that he became capable of altering the perception you have of him (could be born with the power, but probably he had to learn how to use it).

They are probably about the same size as normal space marines.

I can't speak to 40K fluff, because I don't really read the lore. I could guess from what I have read, but I won't. I think the real question might be - how tall are normal humans in the far future?

If you think about it, the average American is now fully 6 inches taller then a Neaderthal, who was alive 30,000 years ago. Factor in two things:

A.) We now have external influences with genetic manipulation, such as women growing breasts earlier and larger because of hormones in our diet (cow's milk). How might that work out over literally tens of thousands of years?

B.) If you look at North Korea, the average height has declined quite a bit since the armistice due to poor diet in comparison to South Korea. Imagine an impoverished planet, isolated, for literally hundreds or thousands of years.

So before we go to all these genetically modified superhumans, we might want to see if we can even establish a good human baseline.

Modern humans are not descended from Neanderthals.

Also, the amount of how much people have got bigger over time is usually exaggerated, and those numbers have to do with the average height of the population anyway. In past average heights were slightly lower, as there were swathes malnourished people. The well fed* people have always been tall, and we've pretty much maxed on what diet can do in many western countries. Average heights may still go up slightly, as older generations that might not have such a diet keep dying.

* (lots of protein and vitamins. Modern diet might be in many ways unhealthy and have too much fat and sugar, but we usually get enough protein and vitamins.)

 Lynata wrote:

Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

"We"?

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.

(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)

This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.

the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

"We"?

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.

(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)

This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.

the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?

Not if you.look at FW Deimos Rhinoes- the HH pattern. They are the plastic rhinoes with add-ons. In terms of in-game fluff, the older, smaller Rhinoes never existed. The Deimos was during the Heresy and was since modified to have square doors instead of circular, a stormbolter instead of 2 bolters and other things.

 Crimson wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor, as the mightiest psyker in the galaxy, could make himself as big as he damn well pleased.

He certainly could, so his 'real' size is hard to estimate.

What leads you toward those numbers?

Well, marine size is the standard GW seven foot figure, and rest is just my totally made up 'personal canon.'

195 cm is a good height for a really tall person who do not still seem freakishly huge. As for Primarchs, I've always imagined them as really big dudes, but still being able to interact somewhat normally with the human scale world, and anything past eight feet really is too big for that.

There is no "standard GW figure", there is one guy saying how things used to be two decades ago, and dozens of other descriptions since then. Fluff changes, and so has Marine height over the years; Gaunt is described as being extremely tall for a human, yet the Chaos Marines the Ghosts fight against still dwarf him, other BL novels give other numbers, the Space Marine game has them about 7.5' in armour, etc etc etc. And don't try any of this "hurr durr BL isn't official" nonsense, because the word straight from the horse's mouth(ie GW) is that there is no such thing as canon, or a hierarchy of fluff; if it gets published with the 40K brand on it, it's as "official" as anything else, and discrepancies must be handwaved-away as observer bias or distorted legends. "Between 7 and 8 feet" for a Marine in armour is about as accurate as we're going to get.

As for the Primarchs, given that I don't think we've been given an absolute height for any of them, that the rough descriptions of them vary from book to book, that at least some of them are able to vary their size and mass at will, and that most descriptions we do have of them are from the perspective of people in the world itself rather than omniscient narrator(people who are apparently struck dumb with awe at the mere sight of a Primarch so are hardly reliable), I suspect trying to figure out anything even remotely concrete is a futile exercise. Best to just go with "on average, about the same height difference to a marine as there is between a marine and a human" and leave it at that.

Seven feet is the GW design studio figure, and they've been really consistent with it over the years. BL numbers are completely random. I'm not saying that they're not 'official' in the sense that all GW fluff is. I just prefer to go with the seven foot number.

 Deadshot wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

"We"?

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.

(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)

This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.

the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?

Not if you.look at FW Deimos Rhinoes- the HH pattern. They are the plastic rhinoes with add-ons. In terms of in-game fluff, the older, smaller Rhinoes never existed. The Deimos was during the Heresy and was since modified to have square doors instead of circular, a stormbolter instead of 2 bolters and other things.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MKIC-DEIMOS-PATTERN-RHINO.html <--- so this rhino here is the one thats the deimos that was used during the heracy etc etc, that is actually the smaller rhino? its not on the new chassis... so its the baby one that can hide away.. and is my point... someone got bigger or they would still have tiddly tanks

ausYenLoWang wrote:the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones...

According to whom?

In my eyes, one of the central themes in 40k is ancient tech turning relics - this includes Rhinos, originally designed and still used by ordinary humans, being emplyoed continuously over a span of thousands of years, as well as pieces of armour and weapons being re-issued and passed on from generation to generation, especially in the Adeptus Astartes.
Wildly varying figures in size would throw a wrench into this concept, 's all I'm saying. To me, that'd take something cool out of 40k, as it would necessitate stuff being comparatively new so that it can actually be used by people.

Also, everything that Yodhren and Crimson said. At the end, it's all a matter of preferences.

 Yodhrin wrote:
As for the Primarchs, given that I don't think we've been given an absolute height for any of them

Ten feet, for Lion El'Jonson.

This matches up fairly well with Primarchs compared to humans and Marines in the descriptions, and artwork.

Primarch size may vary though. Alpharius is pretty damn short for a Primarch, Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ, and especially Magnus the Red very large.

 Crimson wrote:
Seven feet is the GW design studio figure, and they've been really consistent with it over the years. BL numbers are completely random. I'm not saying that they're not 'official' in the sense that all GW fluff is. I just prefer to go with the seven foot number.

Sorry, I just reread your post, and I was being a bit to aggressive in my response; I missed the "my" before "made up personal canon" and thought you were implying that anyone who disagreed with your 7' preference was objectively wrong. My bad.

EDIT:

Ah OK Void__Dragon, I must have missed that; is it in one of the Dark Angels HH books?

Yeah, it's from Descent of Angels, right when the Lion meets his Legion for the first time. He is described as a little over three meters tall while unarmoured. Making him about ten feet tall.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Bromsy wrote:It's perfectly reasonable to assume that HH era humans were at the high end of human height - with 28,000 years of evolution and genetic modifications, 7 odd feet doesn't seem unreasonable, at least for people from certain planets - such as Terra. Now, 10,000! years of regression later, people have slipped, not to mention Space Marines now adays recruit from feral or otherwise backwards worlds, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that if some 5'5 feral worlder grows into a 7 foot marine, a 6.5-7 foot human would grow to be a lot taller. Simple maths gives us an average height for HH era marines at around 8.4 feet, with obvious outliers I don't think the nine to ten foot range is out of the question - remember the scope of the genetic modifications!

So, since we've figured out that HH marines are 8.5-9.0 feet tall, Primarchs like Magnus could no doubt approach 20, even if most of them would be a bit shorter. As for the Emperor, remember that he is a pretty singular being. He's an entire race worth of shaman in one body. I mean, wasn't he a significant portion of the height of a knight-titan in the mechanicum book?

"We"?

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should believe for their interpretation of the fluff, but ... I'm just going to point out that the Rhino APC has not changed between the Great Crusade and M41 and that indeed there are many vehicles which still see active service after millennia of use. Since these vehicles are employed by both baseline humans (for which the Rhino was originally designed) as well as the Astartes - am I the only one seeing a problem with huge gaps in body height here? In other words, we have a tank which was driven by supposedly ~8.5 feet Marines in the past and is now used by ~5.5 feet normal humans in M41? That's almost a meter difference.

(let alone the Primarch's ability to use the vehicles, drop pods and fliers employed by his Legion, heh)

This is, of course, dismissable if one would choose to dismiss the studio fluff concerning those vehicles. I'm just throwing it out there as something to keep in mind.

the current rhino actually happens to be atleast 25% larger than the original ones... would this not speak of an increase in size of the marines it carries?

Not if you.look at FW Deimos Rhinoes- the HH pattern. They are the plastic rhinoes with add-ons. In terms of in-game fluff, the older, smaller Rhinoes never existed. The Deimos was during the Heresy and was since modified to have square doors instead of circular, a stormbolter instead of 2 bolters and other things.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/MKIC-DEIMOS-PATTERN-RHINO.html <--- so this rhino here is the one thats the deimos that was used during the heracy etc etc, that is actually the smaller rhino? its not on the new chassis... so its the baby one that can hide away.. and is my point... someone got bigger or they would still have tiddly tanks

uh, English please? Basically I heard from there was that the Deimos is apparently smaller than the plastic? No.

In terms of fluff, there was no smaller Rhino from 4th Ed or whatever. The Rhino has also been the size it now is right back to the Heresy. It may be a model but fluffwse it didn't exist.