It's well known to those of us who have watched GW for many years that the only thing they hate more than their fans is making money. Otherwise why would they try to make money through the laziest and least effective way of raising revenue, price hikes rather than growing their fan base and improving their products.

But... what if they liked to make money? What if they wanted their stories full and their games growing? What might the world look like?

1. The Hobbit Game would be heavily advertised

2. Popular GW tie-ins like the video games, novels and RPGs would be represented on the table top. Rogue Traders and Death Watch would be playable factions. Each month there would be a new special character based on a popular BL character. We'd have 3 versions of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example and Guant's Ghosts would still have their own rules.

3. GW would let retailers and fans know what's coming to generate excitement. Stores would hold special events to sell the newest army.

4. Starter sets would be a bargain to get fans started on a new army which they would then spend a fortune improving.

5. GW would still make stand alone games like Space Hulk and would get them into new channels like toy and book stores. And they'd actually stay in production.

6. Horus Heresy, based on a BEST SELLING BOOK SERIES would be a mainstream product, available in plastic in stores rather than mail order only resin.

7. GW would try to keep fans engaged so we don't drift off into other games or hobbies.

8. We'd be able to buy Finecast with confidence the models would be error free.

9. Core products like Cult Marines would be regularly updated instead of focusing on dinobots.

10. Plastic characters would be multipose and have options so we have a reason to buy more than one.

But hey... I'm not a multimillionaire executive so what do I know?

Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

We'd probably have more spin offs and other products like statues, shirts etc.

I'd imagine something like nerf would work well with it.

While true, nkelsch, it doesn't make the points any less valid.

I think the opposite argument is also funny- GW is a successful business, so they must know what they're doing, right? If my experience in businesses thus far is any indication, the answer is a resounding NO those 2 things do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

The rise of Warmachine/Hordes strongly illustrates that people want alternatives to GW's way of doing things (even though most still like the background and the mass-battles games) and with the kickstarter phenomenon, alternatives are only going to increase. GW will get the message sooner or later- I personally think it will be sooner, as their bottom line gets affected.

nkelsch wrote:
Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

What you say?

Sometimes people on message board have same topic? Again and again?

I am shock!

Please feel free to return to threads on which Primarch would win or whether autocannons are better than lascannons.

GW needs to defend that IP, because it is the background and imagery that is holding it together, not it's outlandish and bizarre Weyland Yutani business mindset.

If and When someone comes up with a cooler background for a mini line (fairly difficult, the 40k and fantasy backgrounds have had 25-30 years to evolve and ingrain) and starts making better sculpts (a good deal easier given the recent burnt offerings) then GW will have a very rude awakening and limited time to get it's house in order or die. I can't wait for that day.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:2. Each month there would be a new special character based on a popular BL character. We'd have 3 versions of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example and Guant's Ghosts would still have their own rules.

I think this is a great idea.

Personally, I like this thread: it's kinda stunning how such simple and obvious[ly logical] ideas would probably be so effective, and even someone such as KK can think of them!

 Just Dave wrote:
....even someone such as KK can think of them!

Zing!

 filbert wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
....even someone such as KK can think of them!

Zing!

Guilty as charged... I have the business sense of a lemming,

On the other hand, I.have the lemming sense of a buisnessman :-\

IMO, the thing GW plc really needs is a marketing department.
If they had a marketing department , they would realize how to grow a market share, rather than trying to desperately exploit a shrinking one.
And more importantly KNOW who they are marketing their product at...

If they are marketing product at middle class children, why not use the internet , the thing the modern child primarily uses to access information ?
If they are selling a hobby , they need hobby centers not one man retail outlets.
if they are selling to gamers , they need to focus on game play issues.

Delivering average minatures, with a moderately inspiring setting , with poor rules and game support, is bad enough.
But having to overcharge on RRP just to support a now pointless B&M retail chain is slowly pushing them towards falling revenues to compliment their falling sales volumes.

I would be one broke sonnofabitch.

Problem is though, if they rectify one bad thing, y'all will still bitch and moan that they haven't done another thing.

"Oh, they're going to let people retail on the internet again?"... "Great, their prices still suck".

"Oh, they're doing some price regression and advertising it really well" ... "They won't let some random internet store sell it for 25% less than retail, they still suck".

So on and so forth. I tend to play other games but ever so often create one new army every few years for 40k. I know its expensive, get over it.

Also, a lot of stuff on that first post would not work, should not work and nobody would ever implement it, and it sounds like YOUR wishlist, not business acumen.

ammp wrote:
Problem is though, if they rectify one bad thing, y'all will still bitch and moan that they haven't done another thing.

Well, yeah. When there's so much to complain about, that's kind of the way things go.

Also, a lot of stuff on that first post would not work, should not work and nobody would ever implement it, and it sounds like YOUR wishlist, not business acumen.

Which ones? Why?

I think GW doesn't do all that extra stuff because they don't have to. They make money with barely any promotion as it is. I don't like GW's business policies, but I think it's funny they are accused of both hating money and simultaneously being ultra greedy beyond measure.

orkybenji wrote:
I think GW doesn't do all that extra stuff because they don't have to. They make money with barely any promotion as it is. I don't like GW's business policies, but I think it's funny they are accused of both hating money and simultaneously being ultra greedy beyond measure.

But it is possible. You see they shamelessly seem to exploit their existing, and anecdotally shrinking, customer base, while simultaneously appearing to do everything possible to avoid traditional, proven methods of gaining more customers. So while the two things seem diametrically opposed, GW seems to be making it work!

They seem to take the view that they could make more more, but it isn't worth the increased effort. There's an investment-profit ratio that after a point you just can't be bothered to put any more effort in given what you get out. I think GW set this bar fairly low though, product releases are generally slow, they make minimal effort to market their stuff, they don't really bother with making the magazine and website anything other than advertising, and are even getting lax about product quality seeing what they think is okay to ship out under the Finecast banner. Kirby and the other big names in the company are doing quite well out of it so are happy to stay steady year after year even if it makes the much longer term future of the company look less certain. They won't do anything risky or which may involve spending money that could be filling their wage pack. Unless something disastrous happens with the finances, Kirby will sell the company when he exits in a few years, only then are you likely to see any sort of restructuring or change in approach.

The Hobbit is especially odd. He's my suspicion. GW have decided that LotR is on the way out and no amount of investment is going to turn it around, the franchise just isn't as big this time, it's old news. So they've fought to hang onto the licence because it stops anyone else getting it and it means they can still stock their current LotR lines until they wind them down. Losing the licence would probably mean they have to cease selling all those lines. The effort put into the Hobbit line is minimal, they've pushed the prices right up because they've assessed that a certain amount will sell regardless of price, but as a game system they're not going to push it or try to make it mass appeal because that involves spending money for fairly little increased sales.

nkelsch wrote:
Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

If you don't want to read the topic, don't read the topic.

nkelsch wrote:
Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

You knew what this thread was going to be about from the subject, right? I mean, the only thing more tiresome then "these threads" has got to be the people making a beeline to go drop a big stinky turd in them the moment they get posted with their insipid "OH THIS THREAD AGAIN LOLZ". I mean, seriously, the very first response, not even three minutes later! Are you sitting there waiting at home hitting F5? How is this any better then literal spam, like a DOTA key thread?


So, uh, on-topic:




I don't think there's any reason to think there is a market for some of the things you say, like specialist games for example. You can still buy BFG, for example, right? I have to think if they were moving units, they'd move it front facing a little more. I mean, how many of those plastic Nurgle HQ one-shots did they sell? Those seemed like a good pilot for "a new special character every month".

I know everyone has a warm special place in their heart for Blood Bowl, for example. But I have to tell you guys - Blood Bowl, in it's current incarnation, kinda sucks. It's incredibly unfun to an entry level gamer who wants to pick up a game, all the enjoyment of parsing an Excel spreadsheet. My advice: For games like this, release a "starter rules" handbook that is not more then 4 pages.

Most of the other stuff I agree with; especially Finecast. That was a huge, huge blow to my personal confidence in GWS. I felt like at some point, they decided "why feed them steak, when they'll eat gak"?

IDK about the specific "specialist" games but I do think GW are making a bad mistake not to leverage their retail presence by selling a wider range of games.

Right now, there are only two reasons to go into GW -- because you are interested in WH/40K, or because you think you might be interested in it. (But if you aren't, you walk out again.)

If there was a wider range of boxed games, which don't all need to be Grimdark™, there would be more reasons to go in the shop.

The decline and fall of "specialist" games is partly self-inflicted. By relegating them to the rear wall and the Internet, GW have kept them well out of the sightline of the casual shopper.

Yes, two core games means that most people will only buy new stuff when their army gets updated... i.e. once every few years.

I'm almost certain I spent more when there was a greater range of games.

Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

No.

Marketing, expanded product ranges, two way customer communication are fairly sensible business strategies.

I think not having the specialist games in store is a bad idea for sure ! Fortinately for me I learned about Battlefleet gothic form a friend of mine, and probably have spent a small fortune on the stuff. If that was in store people would be tempted to get into it, thinking "Hey I could have a Space Marine fleet too !!!"

But we can only hope and dream

Flashman wrote:Yes, two core games means that most people will only buy new stuff when their army gets updated... i.e. once every few years.

I'm almost certain I spent more when there was a greater range of games.

I definitely spent more when there were specialist games, as evidenced by my Epic 40k boxed set, my Gorkamorka boxed set and my Space Hulk boxed set. However didn't they lose money on Epic?

precinctomega wrote:Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

IMO it's because they'd rather exploit a shrinking market share instead of trying to maintain or grow that market share.

#4 seems like the most obvious thing to me. They used to be just a slight discount, didn't they? Now they're all maybe a dollar off the separate price, if that. Even to me, with my very limited view on economics and marketing, that seems like a dumb move.

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?.

Please o business guru - please explain some of the possible reasons for not doing any marketing, shrinking product ranges (including killing off profitable ones) and accepting customer feedback.

3. GW would let retailers and fans know what's coming to generate excitement. Stores would hold special events to sell the newest army.

KK, you be crazy.

What kind of successful businesses do this kind of thing anymore....................

The point I was making obliquely is that GW deliberately limits their expansion to very particular boundaries. They very much want to remain within those boundaries for long-term business reasons.

R.

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

I think there are reasons why GW think they ought not to do these things.

My view is that they have a false strategy and it shows in the relative stagnation of the company's results since the end of the LotR boom.

However, the recent pick up in the rate of codex releases perhaps indicates that GW also see their strategy was not working and are trying to change course.

 precinctomega wrote:
The point I was making obliquely is that GW deliberately limits their expansion to very particular boundaries. They very much want to remain within those boundaries for long-term business reasons.

R.

If by 'long term' you mean 'until the next dividend payment' or 'until Kirby's retirement fund is filled.'

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

No.

If you look across the board at various companies, you will find a lot of them who don't do things...or do do things that are bad business. They may even make a bit of money. Sometimes they make a lot of money. Then they fail. There is absolutely no reason to assume that for some reason the people in the Ivory Tower in Nottingham have any more business sense than the people at AIG, Hostess, FPI, AEC, THQ, TSR, FASA...

Quite often, they do things for no reason in particular - and even more often they do things because they think they know something which isn't true (or isn't true anymore).

 Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:2. Each month there would be a new special character based on a popular BL character. We'd have 3 versions of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example and Guant's Ghosts would still have their own rules.

I think this is a great idea.

Personally, I like this thread: it's kinda stunning how such simple and obvious[ly logical] ideas would probably be so effective, and even someone such as KK can think of them!

They used to do that of sorts - there was a somewhat short lived and sporadic series of articles in White Dwarf called Heroes & Villians of the 41st Millenium as well as Chapter Approved articles for Gaunts Ghosts and others and lets not forget the Index Astartes articles they ran. All of them tie together with being more fluffy and expanding on the background (or making the connection between the game, miniatures and BL products).

nkelsch wrote:
Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

Yes, and generally there is some sort of impetus every week from GW for why these sorts of threads pop up...whether it is something like a store shutting down in store gaming, shutting off a market channel, some sort of fiasco involving a childrens' book author, weak financial reports in the face of a strong industrial report...

Something that I don't understand is the price rises, GW price rises have on, say, a Cadian box set is roughly 200% (from costing 18 pounds for 20, to costing something like 20 pounds for 10) Whereas forge world price rises are much much smaller. Take a DKK infantry squad. 35-37 pounds, thats barely 10%. Now I know the plastic cadians have been round longer, but they have become more expensive much quicker.

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

Never under estimate the power of petty office politics, inertia and incompitance to stall the obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trying to stear this back on topic... The failure to leverage popular tie ins continues to stump me.

Black Library books are getting as much shelf space as established lines like Star Trek and Wars, the FFG games are out selling D&D, the video games brought new fans to GW but if you want to transition to the table top...

Look at all these characters! Can I play Guant or Commissar Cain?
No.

I love Rogue Trader and Death Watch, can I play a RT retinue?
No

I saw these Horus Heresy books are jolly good, might I see their rules?
No. Call Forge World and wait 6 weeks. Oh and you can't use them in normal games. And we hate you.

The Blood Ravens rock! Can I play them?
No, but you can play Blood Angels and Raven Guard!

Just saw Ultramarines on DVD, can I get a Johnny Ultra (or whatever the hero's name is) model?
No, no you may not.


GI Joe 3: Zip Line Ninjas just came out, I would bet dollars to doughnuts if i walk into a TRU tomorrow there will be a wall full of The Rock as Roadblock figures looking back at me. GW

Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

GW have publicly stated their strategy many times - they believe that they are the leading player in a niche business. They will grow organically by opening new stores, and they feel the one-man-show is the way to do that without going broke in the real estate business. Doubters, see Boston Chicken for a tale of a similar sized company getting it all wrong and going out of business, permanently. They like finecast as a medium, as it leverages their strengths. I don't, but I am just one guy and data is not the plural of anecdote.

Lately I've been coming across as some sort of GW apologist in these "GW is stoopid at business" threads and I ain't that guy. But really, if you are commenting on their business practices maybe you should do a little research and try to understand what they are? Maybe?

 Flashman wrote:

 precinctomega wrote:
Given that these are obvious to even KK (XD) don't you think there may actually be logical business reasons why GW doesn't do these things?

R.

No.

Marketing, expanded product ranges, two way customer communication are fairly sensible business strategies.

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure!

But White Dwarf is aimed entirely at people who already play so there is no point in marketing in that fashion.

The OP is wrong, in a way. I personally think that GW hates the fact that I am a consumer with brains and feelings FAR more than they hate making money off of me.

For 15 years now, every year I get more and more of a feeling that they only see me as a "necessary evil" that they have to put up with to make any money off their product.

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

White Dwarf is preaching to the choir, not marketing.

Releasing new stuff for 40K/Fantasy will only appeal to a limited portion of their fan base each month.

By customer communication, I mean some kind of market research e.g. Would a limited release Warhammer naval game be appealing to you?

Re: choir preaching - niche market and organic growth strategy. So, yeah.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss White Dwarf, a magazine/brochure distributed via every chain bookseller in North America as "preaching to the choir", but a market survey of current gamers about a limited edition subset of an existing product line would qualify as marketing in your eyes? Ok ...

 Flashman wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

White Dwarf is preaching to the choir, not marketing.

Releasing new stuff for 40K/Fantasy will only appeal to a limited portion of their fan base each month.

By customer communication, I mean some kind of market research e.g. Would a limited release Warhammer naval game be appealing to you?

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure!

A monthly $10 catalog is a drop in the ocean of marketing. It only markets to people who already know your products and are willing to pay $10 for a catalog. The marketing we are talking about is ads in other magazines, in public places, on TV, if BL books are selling well then you can market the miniatures alongside them, etc etc..

Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

Whoever said it did?

GW have publicly stated their strategy many times - they believe that they are the leading player in a niche business. They will grow organically by opening new stores, and they feel the one-man-show is the way to do that without going broke in the real estate business. Doubters, see Boston Chicken for a tale of a similar sized company getting it all wrong and going out of business, permanently. They like finecast as a medium, as it leverages their strengths. I don't, but I am just one guy and data is not the plural of anecdote.

We know this... does it mean we have to agree that it's a good strategy and good business practices? Hell no.

Lately I've been coming across as some sort of GW apologist in these "GW is stoopid at business" threads and I ain't that guy. But really, if you are commenting on their business practices maybe you should do a little research and try to understand what they are? Maybe?

The OP seems quite well presented and "understanding" of things. People aren't just obliviously giving suggestions with no understanding of what GW is doing and why.

Jack_Death wrote:
Re: choir preaching - niche market and organic growth strategy. So, yeah.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss White Dwarf, a magazine/brochure distributed via every chain bookseller in North America as "preaching to the choir", but a market survey of current gamers about a limited edition subset of an existing product line would qualify as marketing in your eyes? Ok ...

Not sure we're going to find common ground here. Happy to agree to disagree.

Nonsense. That is what a growth strategy aimed at increased year-year in-store sales is all about. When I said "organic" growth, that is what it means by definition - make more sh** and sell more sh**. Give your fans something new to buy, hopefully generate a little excitement about the new products, and (because they are looking to build a completely integrated business and protect margins) in the long run get them to buy as much of the product as possible directly from your own retail outlets, whether online or B&M. Simple, really.

GW has told us, repeatedly, that they believe their business is a niche business. They do not advertise via mass media, as one elephant-sized example of how they act on that belief. Dismissing a targeted marketing vehicle because it is a targeted marketing vehicle completely misses the point.

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with them, I am just saying that there is an awful lot of completely off-the-wall speculation about their business strategy, profitability, revenues, etc. being repeatedly bantered about. It takes about two minutes of reading in the Investor Relations section of their web site to find the answers to these riddles, there aren't any big secrets.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure!

But White Dwarf is aimed entirely at people who already play so there is no point in marketing in that fashion.

Jack_Death wrote:
Re: choir preaching - niche market and organic growth strategy. So, yeah.

Let me get this straight, you dismiss White Dwarf, a magazine/brochure distributed via every chain bookseller in North America as "preaching to the choir", but a market survey of current gamers about a limited edition subset of an existing product line would qualify as marketing in your eyes? Ok ...

 Flashman wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. A brief glance at any of their annual reports confirms they are quite aware of this. Customer communication means a lot of things - clearly, it doesn't mean "let the vocal minority air their endless b*tch sessions via public forums we pay for" to GW. I'm not sure that I disagree with that sentiment!

White Dwarf is preaching to the choir, not marketing.

Releasing new stuff for 40K/Fantasy will only appeal to a limited portion of their fan base each month.

By customer communication, I mean some kind of market research e.g. Would a limited release Warhammer naval game be appealing to you?

Except it isn't in every Chain Bookseller in North America. It isn't carried as a rule in Books A Million. It also is carried only by request in Barnes and Noble. If you see it on a shelf in one of those book stores, it is generally because a customer asked if the store could get the magazine. The reason is that much like many other GW products - they have been squeezing distributors out of it. Most the magazines in book stores are handled by a distribution house, and White Dwarf has been cut from a lot of those in the past 4 or 5 years. Book stores can still get them through other channels - but it is far more difficult when compared to buying standard distribution packages from one of the various suppliers (something that even chain stores do as things like "Southern Living" are not too popular in North Dakota).

http://www.booksamillion.com/search?id=5626324781764&query=White+Dwarf&where=Magazines

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/noresults?keyword=White+Dwarf+magazine&store=allproducts

Not sure if Canada does it differently - but I would assume that they don't. Europe and Australia might have better distribution of the magazine - but I would not be surprised if they implemented the same squeeze over there as well and the bookstores told them to stuff it. If Simon and Schuster didn't handle the distribution of BL products - those would also likely be off the shelves of local book stores, chain or otherwise.

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. ... ...

Playing Devil's Advocate, WD is an expensive brochure that most newagents have stopped carrying so you can only buy it in... GW shops, and many veterans have turned away from it.

The codex a month release schedule isn't new product, it's updates of old products some of which, for instance Tau, have languished in the doldrums for years.

To be fair, I do hope the rapid update schedule does indicate a change of strategy by GW. We'll see over the next couple of years.

That is interesting. As I said before, anecdotes aren't data, but I travel all the time and I've never been in a B&N that didn't have it. That would fit with the "buy everything from us" part of the strategy, but certainly eliminates WD as a mass-marketing vehicle. As a targeted marketing vehicle, the point still stands, and to the larger point (just read the financials!) it isn't relevant at all, not that you were commenting on either of course.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:


Except it isn't in every Chain Bookseller in North America. It isn't carried as a rule in Books A Million. It also is carried only by request in Barnes and Noble. If you see it on a shelf in one of those book stores, it is generally because a customer asked if the store could get the magazine. The reason is that much like many other GW products - they have been squeezing distributors out of it. Most the magazines in book stores are handled by a distribution house, and White Dwarf has been cut from a lot of those in the past 4 or 5 years. Book stores can still get them through other channels - but it is far more difficult when compared to buying standard distribution packages from one of the various suppliers (something that even chain stores do as things like "Southern Living" are not too popular in North Dakota).

http://www.booksamillion.com/search?id=5626324781764&query=White+Dwarf&where=Magazines

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/noresults?keyword=White+Dwarf+magazine&store=allproducts

Not sure if Canada does it differently - but I would assume that they don't. Europe and Australia might have better distribution of the magazine - but I would not be surprised if they implemented the same squeeze over there as well and the bookstores told them to stuff it. If Simon and Schuster didn't handle the distribution of BL products - those would also likely be off the shelves of local book stores, chain or otherwise.

Anecdotes (experiences) can be qualitative data, but some people have a habit of considering them to be quantitative.

Studies are continuing to try and identify the gene responsible for this behaviour.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Jack_Death wrote:
Sure, but your idea of "marketing", and the general feeling in this thread, seems quite different from what is actually happening. GW doesn't do any marketing? White Dwarf is a 100+ page full-color monthly brochure! GW does not expand their product range? Codex-a-month this year, clearly they are pushing for more product in the pipeline as quickly as possible. ... ...

Playing Devil's Advocate, WD is an expensive brochure that most newagents have stopped carrying so you can only buy it in... GW shops, and many veterans have turned away from it.

The codex a month release schedule isn't new product, it's updates of old products some of which, for instance Tau, have languished in the doldrums for years.

To be fair, I do hope the rapid update schedule does indicate a change of strategy by GW. We'll see over the next couple of years.

This is the case in the UK as well. I used to buy mine from a supermarket chain but it disappeared so I could only buy it from the GW store. Eventually I didn't bother because I felt the magazine wasn't worth the money.

However, this is another issue. What I am concerned with here is that only selling it in your own store means only established players will really see it. Therefore, not a good marketing tool at all in my opinion.

4. Starter sets would be a bargain to get fans started on a new army which they would then spend a fortune improving.

Like hard drugs.

Around my way, it still appears in WH Smiths and Asda, but I still think it has limited potential to appeal to a wider audience, beyond a few younger people picking it up for the first time.

nanook wrote:
Therefore, not a good marketing tool at all in my opinion.

I agree. I liken it to the new car my wife and I recently bought. We bought a Mazda CX-7. Ever since, we've been getting new car pamphlets from the dealer. I just bought a new car. . .you're advertising to the wrong person.

While Mazda doesn't really have to worry about it because of their commercials and world renown, the example is the same. GW is like Mazda without the commercials. The only way I'd know to look for White Dwarf is if I was already involved and by then, you don't need to advertise to me, you've already got me hooked.

I think the issue here is the function of White Dwarf has changed while the distribution method has not. White Dwarfs used to be for the gamer who would pick one up in his FLGS after a game so that when he got home he could read through the batreps, learn a new painting technique, maybe read through some new rules or get a bit of info on new releases. Now, White Dwarf has changed to an advertisement, but where you pick it up hasn't changed. The person who already has an army or two may not care to pick up a magazine (especially for the cost!) that simply advertises other things you can buy. And the people that don't know about White Dwarf aren't wandering into a gaming dungeon in a far-flung strip mall looking for it.

So, you're putting advertisements up for people that already know about the product. It's like putting a flyer for Call of Duty in the box for Call of Duty.

Edit: And asking me to pay for said flyer.

 precinctomega wrote:
The point I was making obliquely is that GW deliberately limits their expansion to very particular boundaries. They very much want to remain within those boundaries for long-term business reasons.

R.

That's....completely the opposite of the facts. The decisions being made currently are all extremely short-termist and short-sighted; they result in a balance sheet that is healthy enough for Kirby to show to investors in order to keep his job and keep paying himself dividends, but they are demonstrably bad for the long term health of the company. Unless of course you think that closing/1-manning stores, switching to cheaper materials, and raising prices yearly far above inflation all in order to hide declining unit sales is good business. Even then, once you do adjust for inflation, GW have dropped their growth rate until it's almost flat, from a high of 18% per annum. I would have ritually sacrificed babies for an 18% year-on-year growth rate when I worked in retail. And all of that is happening in a sector which is overall growing quite rapidly despite recessions in multiple developed nations.

Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

Regarding WD, the reason Smiths etc delisted it was because it wasn't selling well enough.

Smiths also have a policy to keep badly selling magazines on the shelves in large stores as a kind of diversity initiative. That is why you still see WD in some Smiths and other newsagents they supply.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

The growth of the sector overall is an interesting point.

The old adage is, "A rising tide raises all the ships", meaning that if a market sector (traditional games, in this case) is expanding, then every company in that sector should expand at the same rate unless they are doing things better or worse than their rivals.

We know there has been a boom in boardgames in recent years, triggered by various factors. The historical wargames market seems healthy too, and F/SF in the form of Mantic and others has seen new entrants.

Why is GW merely treading water? Their efficiency gains must run out at some point.

 puma713 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

Indeed. If we didn't care, we wouldn't rant.

What? The OP's saying GW don't like making money? That's ridiculous. Of course they like making money, they're a company. It's what they do. Fortunately for GW and unfortunately for us, GW have that special niche where they can afford to "hate on their fans" and make money.

I would argue that self serving investors would see it as in their interest to see real growth from GW and not just the current range of efficiency savings and price increases to cover the trend of falling sales and lack of innovation in the market.

I don't think that the current sale of licences to computer games makers will paper over readily apparent cracks in their business model.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
I would argue that self serving investors would see it as in their interest to see real growth from GW and not just the current range of efficiency savings and price increases to cover the trend of falling sales and lack of innovation in the market.

I don't think that the current sale of licences to computer games makers will paper over readily apparent cracks in their business model.

The issue is that most investors will be institutions that know little or nothing of the market and will have invested purely on historic performance and annual yield. Therefore, as long as GW perform according to expectations, they won't look too hard to see if they should be doing better.

If more shares were owned by fans, their AGM would be a very different place to be!

 puma713 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

Absolutely. If I wasn't so worried about losing access to a game universe that is by far one of my favorites, and that got me started in the hobby at all over 15 years ago, I wouldn't complain at all, I would just let them die, forgotten, as I went to another company and their IP.

ammp wrote:
Problem is though, if they rectify one bad thing, y'all will still bitch and moan that they haven't done another thing.

"Oh, they're going to let people retail on the internet again?"... "Great, their prices still suck".

"Oh, they're doing some price regression and advertising it really well" ... "They won't let some random internet store sell it for 25% less than retail, they still suck".

So on and so forth. I tend to play other games but ever so often create one new army every few years for 40k. I know its expensive, get over it.

Also, a lot of stuff on that first post would not work, should not work and nobody would ever implement it, and it sounds like YOUR wishlist, not business acumen.

THIS is a prime example of someone whom wants to disagree however doesn't list why there is opposition, ie why wouldn't it work? who wouldn't implement it, etc. by stating no one will doesn't tell the OP anything that he/she didn't already know beforehand, unless you can raise a valid arguement stand by it and then support it with whatever claims you might have. just my two cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 puma713 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Oh, and before someone accuses me of being a "hater" again; I don't hate GW, exactly the opposite, if I didn't really like at least some aspects of their product it wouldn't irritate me so much that the company is being imperiled to satisfy self-serving investors with no regard for the hobby, sadly one of whom such people happens to be the CEO.

+1

I think that is something that people don't understand about "haters". We are infuriated with what the company is doing because we care so much about their games and where the company is going. It's not that we wish doom and gloom upon GW. Generally speaking, it is the exact opposite.

Absolutely. If I wasn't so worried about losing access to a game universe that is by far one of my favorites, and that got me started in the hobby at all over 15 years ago, I wouldn't complain at all, I would just let them die, forgotten, as I went to another company and their IP.

Exalted +1

There's little reason for GW's anti-social behavior and mindless business strategies. "Need to defend their IP" doesn't make sense when every other company in the world defends their IP while also actually advertising/expanding their products just fine.

The OP does bring a good point that GW isn't a big greedy company just bent on making money in any way possible. They're greedy and bent on making money, but also stubborn and mean spirited and want to make money only in their own way.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Anecdotes (experiences) can be qualitative data, but some people have a habit of considering them to be quantitative.

Studies are continuing to try and identify the gene responsible for this behaviour.

Qualitative data is simply a lot of anecdotal experience, quantitative data is simply a lot of anecdotal data which has numbers put to it.

Fine. I will spell it out.

If GW grows too big, it will begin cutting into the margins of much, much bigger companies. Why have they not licensed their products for action figures? Why did they pull out of conic books despite impressive (and growing) sales and industry plaudits? Why have they been so very circumspect with licensing when it is clearly their largest single revenue stream?

Because if they get too big, Hasbro will step in, buy up a controlling interest, and annihilate the Hhhhobby as we know it.

nkelsch wrote:
Oh look, this thread again.

Another "internet wishlist" of how everyone knows how to do everything better.

We have these literally every week, bulleted lists and all.

Give KK some credit. His list is numbered, not bulleted.

 precinctomega wrote:
Because if they get too big, Hasbro will step in, buy up a controlling interest, and annihilate the Hhhhobby as we know it.

No, I don't buy that. A buyout would be troubling for us, as fans, but for GW suits? It'd be a massive payday, possibly in the "don't have to work for a few years" level. That controlling interest would be bought from GW shareholders, which would, I assume, include Kirby and other bean-counters. Nobody at Wizards of the Coast was reduced to beggary when Hasbro bought the company. They got richer.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Nobody at Wizards of the Coast was reduced to beggary when Hasbro bought the company. They got richer.

And of course they kept on making games and, in the case of MTG, are better now than they ever have been. So I really don't see where this idea of "buyout = goodbye hobby" comes from.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Nobody at Wizards of the Coast was reduced to beggary when Hasbro bought the company. They got richer.

And of course they kept on making games and, in the case of MTG, are better now than they ever have been. So I really don't see where this idea of "buyout = goodbye hobby" comes from.

Precisely. WOTC was bought because it had a bestselling product and was raking in lots of money. It's still doing that today, with some differences to the operations and corporate structure I'm sure, but the product still exists. MTG cards did not change cardboard for ham. Black mana was not replaced with Shady Quintessence. Everything kept buggering on.

 precinctomega wrote:
Fine. I will spell it out.

If GW grows too big, it will begin cutting into the margins of much, much bigger companies. Why have they not licensed their products for action figures? Why did they pull out of conic books despite impressive (and growing) sales and industry plaudits? Why have they been so very circumspect with licensing when it is clearly their largest single revenue stream?

Because if they get too big, Hasbro will step in, buy up a controlling interest, and annihilate the Hhhhobby as we know it.

What a load of nonsense. As Agamemnon2 pointed out, a GW takeover by a major toy or entertainment corporation/conglomerate would be a huge payday for the existing executives and shareholders, and that's all they're interested in. Most of the people with a financial interest in GW couldn't give a flying fig about "the hobby", hell most of them probably don't even know where their money is invested since it's being done through brokers and mutual funds, they'd be overjoyed by the sort of return they'd get in the event of a buyout, and Kirby more than any of them since it gives him exactly what he's after at the moment without all that pesky "work" and "obfuscating the perilous financial situation of the company he runs to reassure investors" stuff.

I have a bunch of money in my personal pension funds and I have no idea where it is invested except that 80% of it is in the UK stock market. Some of it could be in GW for all I know.

Well, GW may have actually done some research on it and found that because the market is small, marketing on TV or in newspapers may not make economical sense - they're not getting enough of a return on that investment.

But going to trade shows definitely would be a wise idea.

TV advertising is very expensive. GW's best form of marketing is word of mouth from older players because it costs nothing. That is why it is dangerous to alienate the veterans.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
TV advertising is very expensive. GW's best form of marketing is word of mouth from older players because it costs nothing. That is why it is dangerous to alienate the veterans.

Can not exalt enough.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too, they expect word of mouth to be their primary advertisement but they have no interest in fostering a good company image that is needed for word of mouth to be effective.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Nobody at Wizards of the Coast was reduced to beggary when Hasbro bought the company. They got richer.

And of course they kept on making games and, in the case of MTG, are better now than they ever have been. So I really don't see where this idea of "buyout = goodbye hobby" comes from.

Precisely. WOTC was bought because it had a bestselling product and was raking in lots of money. It's still doing that today, with some differences to the operations and corporate structure I'm sure, but the product still exists. MTG cards did not change cardboard for ham. Black mana was not replaced with Shady Quintessence. Everything kept buggering on.

Magic has kept on well, but D&D has taken steps back and lost market dominance.

Rick Marshall has written a lot of interesting stuff about Wizards and the Hasbro buyout. He started, oddly enough, by highjacking a set of blog comments (link below) with a lot of fascinating material.
http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/11/thank-you-ryan-dancey.html#comments

He's since started collecting a lot of history and his thoughts on Wizards of the Coast on his own blog.
http://oathsandfates.blogspot.com/2011/07/wizards-of-coast-new-series.html
http://oathsandfates.blogspot.com/2011/07/wizards-to-rescue-dungeons-dragons.html

I feel like advertising isn't so important. It has it's place and GW could certainly do more with it (including hype-building previews, rather than the fake-leaking shoddy pictures nonsense they play at now). But what GW really needs to invest in is quality control.

At the production level, they need quality control to prevent things like the Finecast introduction debacle.

But more than that, they need quality control at the design level. Every plastic release needs to be relentlessly scrutinized to make sure it is perfect. GW has a long history of releasing disappointing plastics and then not fixing them because the cost of plastic molds makes it prohibitive to go back and revisit a model they've already done. That should never happen. They should be able to look at every model they release, at least the plastic ones, and say, "Yes, 10 years down the line this will still look cool."

They don't like money, they only strive for the happiness of their customers regardless of the cost. Our happiness and loyalty is their priority.

 Byte wrote:
They don't like money, they only strive for the happiness of their customers regardless of the cost. Our happiness and loyalty is their priority.

I'm not sure if your being sarcastic or not. Hopefully you are.

If GW did care about the player base, then they wouldn't try so hard to alienate and push them away as they do. GW's current activities show that they aren't really too concerned for regulars. More so they seem to concentrate on occasionally selling starter sets, than selling to regulars.

 JOHIRA wrote:
I feel like advertising isn't so important. It has it's place and GW could certainly do more with it (including hype-building previews, rather than the fake-leaking shoddy pictures nonsense they play at now). But what GW really needs to invest in is quality control.

At the production level, they need quality control to prevent things like the Finecast introduction debacle.

But more than that, they need quality control at the design level. Every plastic release needs to be relentlessly scrutinized to make sure it is perfect. GW has a long history of releasing disappointing plastics and then not fixing them because the cost of plastic molds makes it prohibitive to go back and revisit a model they've already done. That should never happen. They should be able to look at every model they release, at least the plastic ones, and say, "Yes, 10 years down the line this will still look cool."

Yes, totally.

GW are about two decades behind the curve on plastics production. Which means they are improving, actually, because 15 years ago they were about four decades behind the curve.

That would be cool. having mainstream horus heresy and black liby characters being released.

T-Shirts... Nuff said. I can't find shirt with a space wolf on it. Or a farseer. Or a celestian. or anything.... Why don't they sell these things?! Or a hat! Or coffee mugs! They really need to expand their merchandising. But the High Coucil of Terra, I mean the execs at GW, would rather just feed 1000 psykers, I mean gamers, to the golden throne that is WFB and 40K, instead of trying to fix the machine and keep the whole thing alive.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

1. The Hobbit Game would be heavily advertised
That would be an excellent idea for GW to follow through, but they seem to believe that simply word of mouth will advertise for them, and they arre too afraid of technology to out anything out on the internet...

2. Popular GW tie-ins like the video games, novels and RPGs would be represented on the table top. Rogue Traders and Death Watch would be playable factions. Each month there would be a new special character based on a popular BL character. We'd have 3 versions of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example and Guant's Ghosts would still have their own rules.
Personally, I'd prefer GW concentrated on getting the WH40k system to actually work before adding stuff to it. Unless you meant as separate entities, in which case I'd like them to fix WH40k before dividing their attentions even further

3. GW would let retailers and fans know what's coming to generate excitement. Stores would hold special events to sell the newest army.
They did something like this with the 50th (?) anniversary of WH40k, and the turnout for that at my local GW was quite impressive - I'm sure they sold in one day more models than they normally sell in a month. If only they were more consistent with these kinds of events *dreaming*

4. Starter sets would be a bargain to get fans started on a new army which they would then spend a fortune improving.
It already does this quite well. In the UK, the DV box is £61.50, and contains a rulebook, templates, dice, army roster sheet and two finely detailed 500 pts (Approx) armies. Brilliant deal - especially considering their other products.

5. GW would still make stand alone games like Space Hulk and would get them into new channels like toy and book stores. And they'd actually stay in production.
Yes. And this is what all board games companies to to stay alive - and they don't even have a fan base. We can only imagine the ludicrous profits that GW would get if this happened.

6. Horus Heresy, based on a BEST SELLING BOOK SERIES would be a mainstream product, available in plastic in stores rather than mail order only resin.
They'd need to get the books to be FAR more popular first, IMO, but this would be a great idea.

7. GW would try to keep fans engaged so we don't drift off into other games or hobbies.
Well, you have to admit that this will be quite difficult for GW to do, considering the current universe. WH40k as a tabletop game needs stability in it's story line in order to hold together. But it would be nice to see WH50k (10,000 years later) wherein the 40k models are still usable, but the game is set in a progressed story line.

8. We'd be able to buy Finecast with confidence the models would be error free.
Not sure if finecast errors are due to laziness, materials, molds or simply not giving a damn, personally. This one depends on how Finecast actually works under GW.

9. Core products like Cult Marines would be regularly updated instead of focusing on dinobots.
Erm... dinobots? If I'm right about what you mean here, then yes I agree that they should update more cyclically, and cover all the armies on a rota, rather than Space Marines, Spess Marines, Spess Muhreenz, SPHEZZ MUHREENSZ!!

10. Plastic characters would be multipose and have options so we have a reason to buy more than one.
Aren't they already? And why would that encourage more sales?

But hey... I'm not a multimillionaire executive so what do I know?
More than GW, that's for sure.

My post is all in the quote in cyan.

I realize this is hard to believe, but the people who really control GW actually do care. Possibly not about you (in fact, definitely not about you), and possibly not about the community at large in any normal use of the word "care", but they care very much about sustaining the company in its niche. There are a lot of reasons why they care and not all of them are laudable. But GW's track record since Tom Kirby's management buy-out has consistently been one of cautious growth, beneath the notice of the big operations who might seek to snapup a "toy" company that grows too far, too fast. Sometimes cautious growth means pulling back when growth has been to rapid.

Having met most of the people I'm talking about, I can assure you that they are not idiots, nor are they incompetent, naive or malicious. On the contrary, whilst not business geniuses, they know their own business extremely well. I may not be much of a customer anymore, and I may happen to think that a lot of KK's ideas would be excellent for the company. But I do happen to think that GW's powers that be aren't doing them for perfect logical reasons.

R.

 precinctomega wrote:
I realize this is hard to believe, but the people who really control GW actually do care. Possibly not about you (in fact, definitely not about you), and possibly not about the community at large in any normal use of the word "care", but they care very much about sustaining the company in its niche. There are a lot of reasons why they care and not all of them are laudable. But GW's track record since Tom Kirby's management buy-out has consistently been one of cautious growth, beneath the notice of the big operations who might seek to snapup a "toy" company that grows too far, too fast. Sometimes cautious growth means pulling back when growth has been to rapid.

Having met most of the people I'm talking about, I can assure you that they are not idiots, nor are they incompetent, naive or malicious. On the contrary, whilst not business geniuses, they know their own business extremely well. I may not be much of a customer anymore, and I may happen to think that a lot of KK's ideas would be excellent for the company. But I do happen to think that GW's powers that be aren't doing them for perfect logical reasons.

R.

Other than wondering what those reasons are, I have to admit that I can't blame GW for being a bit gakky at the moment, considering the current economy. For the past several years thay've been growing, and considering that a lot of other things are at a standstill or slowly collapsing, they are holding out marvelously well.
But, when the economy is better (If ever) they would do well to try some of these ideas.

GW say their business is not affected by economic cycles.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW say their business is not affected by economic cycles.

Why do I even try to defend anything - my defence is always sabotaged by the very thing I'm trying to defend...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


6. Horus Heresy, based on a BEST SELLING BOOK SERIES would be a mainstream product, available in plastic in stores rather than mail order only resin.

Exalted. My man-crush continues.

 precinctomega wrote:
I realize this is hard to believe, but the people who really control GW actually do care. Possibly not about you (in fact, definitely not about you), and possibly not about the community at large in any normal use of the word "care", but they care very much about sustaining the company in its niche. There are a lot of reasons why they care and not all of them are laudable. But GW's track record since Tom Kirby's management buy-out has consistently been one of cautious growth, beneath the notice of the big operations who might seek to snapup a "toy" company that grows too far, too fast. Sometimes cautious growth means pulling back when growth has been to rapid.

Having met most of the people I'm talking about, I can assure you that they are not idiots, nor are they incompetent, naive or malicious. On the contrary, whilst not business geniuses, they know their own business extremely well. I may not be much of a customer anymore, and I may happen to think that a lot of KK's ideas would be excellent for the company. But I do happen to think that GW's powers that be aren't doing them for perfect logical reasons.

R.

Any company can buy a stake in GW, through share holding, and maybe buy enough to hit the magic number where a buyout can can be placed on the table.

Shareholders should expect some growth on the proposition should they not? Some Institutional investors would be looking to maximise their earning potential and would, maybe, enjoy sustained growth through expansion and diversification.

Surely, exploiting their IP and ideas to the maximum is sound business sense even to the point of take over. GW could grow further still and still not be a viable target for a major to swoop.

Re: Licensing

Total Revenue in the last reporting period = 67.5 million pounds, give or take
Revenue from licensing (royalties) = 434 thousand pounds.
Revenue from licensing = 434/67500 = ~.6% of revenue. Not nearly the largest single revenue stream.
Let's do profit:
Total operating profit before taxes = 11094K
So, licensing = 434/11094 = ~4% of profit. More important as a source of profit than as a source of revenue, which makes sense, but still not nearly the major source.

I would guess that they haven't done additional licensing deals because of a lack of buyers who want to license their IP. Or a lack of the right buyers, maybe.

 precinctomega wrote:
Fine. I will spell it out.

If GW grows too big, it will begin cutting into the margins of much, much bigger companies. Why have they not licensed their products for action figures? Why did they pull out of conic books despite impressive (and growing) sales and industry plaudits? Why have they been so very circumspect with licensing when it is clearly their largest single revenue stream?

Because if they get too big, Hasbro will step in, buy up a controlling interest, and annihilate the Hhhhobby as we know it.

 precinctomega wrote:
I realize this is hard to believe, but the people who really control GW actually do care. Possibly not about you (in fact, definitely not about you), and possibly not about the community at large in any normal use of the word "care", but they care very much about sustaining the company in its niche. There are a lot of reasons why they care and not all of them are laudable. But GW's track record since Tom Kirby's management buy-out has consistently been one of cautious growth, beneath the notice of the big operations who might seek to snapup a "toy" company that grows too far, too fast. Sometimes cautious growth means pulling back when growth has been to rapid.

Having met most of the people I'm talking about, I can assure you that they are not idiots, nor are they incompetent, naive or malicious. On the contrary, whilst not business geniuses, they know their own business extremely well. I may not be much of a customer anymore, and I may happen to think that a lot of KK's ideas would be excellent for the company. But I do happen to think that GW's powers that be aren't doing them for perfect logical reasons.

R.

That's lovely, and I'm sure they're all very nice chaps to have a pint with, but their personality doesn't speak to their business acumen, that's what the company's publicly available financials are for. You know, the ones that show them dropping from substantial yearly growth to almost none, the ones which show they are hiding steadily declining sales volume with price rises and cost-cutting, the ones that show them at a standstill while the industry as a whole is growing? How about their constant ill-advised legal willy-waving, which has now gone so far that they have a fairly reasonable chance of losing control over substantial portions of their IP in America? And those are just the concrete issues, there's also the less tangible problems, such as the already mentioned above reliance on word-of-mouth advertising while simultaneously advancing policies that seem deliberately designed to drive away their most passionate word-of-mouth advocates?

You don't slow down the growth of your company by doing your damnedest to run it into the ground with counter-intuitive policy.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Byte wrote:
They don't like money, they only strive for the happiness of their customers regardless of the cost. Our happiness and loyalty is their priority.

I'm not sure if your being sarcastic or not. Hopefully you are.

Search your feelings.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

1. The Hobbit Game would be heavily advertised
GW have never been big on advertising because for a small niche company they believe that it results in either explosion growth that collapses (creates a fad destined to die) or becomes like a drug and drag on profits (The belief that in order for your advertising to have the same affect in future years keeps costing more and more (ie, the money spent on advertising has to continue getting bigger but the raw and end results will eventually become constant)). But in the end they BELIEVE it will hurt their basic growth model. The adverts for LOTR gave them a bubble. And I still have my notes on MANY separate speeches Tom Kirby or John Stallard gave on this. Note - they did not do the advertising for LOTR, others did. Also their current licensed products are supposed to fill some of the advertising exposure....but they get PAID for them rather than have to pay for them. Only drawback is that they can't target the exposure....it comes down to their partners.

2. Popular GW tie-ins like the video games, novels and RPGs would be represented on the table top. Rogue Traders and Death Watch would be playable factions. Each month there would be a new special character based on a popular BL character. We'd have 3 versions of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example and Guant's Ghosts would still have their own rules.
Actually agree on this one.....raven guard, character models, etc. Would be brilliant for them to do more of this.

3. GW would let retailers and fans know what's coming to generate excitement. Stores would hold special events to sell the newest army.
Unfortunately they seem to think they have evidence that this is not the case, and I think the quote from Mark Wells has been on Dakka a lot. Defintely agree on the last one.....and would love some cool ways to do this for even independent stores. (it is amazing how many gamers love just little things like pins or mugs or even pens. special ones they could send out for a quarterly promotion for a certain army would be pretty cool, but would definitely go against their cost cutting model) The support they give stores can be cool and substantial, but a lot of gamers never hear about it because the store doesn't mention the free terrain they got (or even just sells it for extra profit) Instead we get people saying things like they just don't support stores. Tournament support should be there.......redo it, make it cool and release it to TOs. The drawback is the control GW want in relation to their support. This has caused problems for just one store (Rogue Trader stuff) up to big ones like Adepticon. Model origination rules for any tourney they support is an example of this....

4. Starter sets would be a bargain to get fans started on a new army which they would then spend a fortune improving.
I think Dark Vengeance isn't bad. I think retail for just the Dark Angels would be 173.75 (now that being the retail price MAY be another discussion entirely ) I'd rather see different options than just one, but that is me (and probably way too much to invest for them). However, cheaper options might be enticing too. I've always not really liked the battleforces, not because they weren't good places to start (though sometimes have useless units for the army you build), they can be good for new players or bulk buying. But i always thought they should put out force boxes (of course probably a bit more) after about year two of any edition. So you could buy the 40k rulebook, Eldar miniatures, dice, etc. Or you could buy the Tyranid box with the same stuff. (kinda the Mercs model I guess) Make all of the main races that have books available. I thought that could be a good way to get people in when the edition isn't "brand new"

5. GW would still make stand alone games like Space Hulk and would get them into new channels like toy and book stores. And they'd actually stay in production.
OK, this seconded, third and man I wish it was the case. GW made this decision a long time ago when their diverted R&D started affecting what they could get out for the main games and the reaction from gamers started being....I don't want to buy this game because it was a flash in the pan. (this was VERY common in stores and in the earliest stages of the interwebs - even though I still play Necromunda, Mordheim and a whole lot more....flash in the pan or not, I still own them all and can play them) If I'd been in charge I would have found some fiscal way to go the opposite direction and started supporting these games longer - and not half way like they tried with Specialist games.....

6. Horus Heresy, based on a BEST SELLING BOOK SERIES would be a mainstream product, available in plastic in stores rather than mail order only resin.
Again - yes for veterans. And this has all happened after I've been gone a LONG time, but I bet someone has made the decision not to muddy the water for new gamers.....having the extra decision of WHICH time period to start collecting might frustrate the little guys into doing neither. [Note- I'm afraid that is the reasoning. I'd rather FW would put the investment into their own plastic minis. I always want FW to be available to shops (GW or Independent retailers.)]

7. GW would try to keep fans engaged so we don't drift off into other games or hobbies.
In the good old days, your #5 did this. They then tried summer campaigns with mixed success - a lot started cool but most puttered out (or exploded like Storm of Chaos) I don' t think that means they have to make them change the timeline, but adding things to the games based on results could work if done very well. Unfortunately I think it is a challenge they have failed to achieve before....Your number 2 could be used well in this way if they could figure it out.....

8. We'd be able to buy Finecast with confidence the models would be error free.
I must say I have been very lucky - I have no horror stories after buying hundreds of the things. But I've seen em before. Low quality control by GW is inexcusable IMHO. It would have gotten a lot of people gone when I was there. Also, I never was that thrilled when they left metal - I understand the reasons, understand the goals, why their cost estimates were way too low and they raised prices because of it. Still hate it - even though I have been lucky! Then again, I'd love to see Bits and Metals all comes back. I want Citadel Classics as a spinoff company. Make all of the discontinued models again. If done right, it could be good and not just a cost sink.

9. Core products like Cult Marines would be regularly updated instead of focusing on dinobots.
I think this means update the basic troopers more often (If not I'm sorry). Yes would be cool (thought their model of plastics cost of spreading the mould costs out over time makes this a bit harder - not saying it is impossible especially with the lower costs involved, but not how they account for these things). I'd rather they make more variety. For a basic troop set, release 10 models in one box, and ten different models in another. sell both. Lets admit a long time ago two people could collect metal dwarfs and do it with very few of the same models in an army. Now everyone's army is too similar because even if they kit bash to some extent it is still just too many of the same bits. The armies that are truly stunning are ones where everything is a major conversion or departure from the "normal" bits for that army. Making more bits available may change this. Though yes, after a certain time period has gone by, everything should at least be evaluated to be replaced.

10. Plastic characters would be multipose and have options so we have a reason to buy more than one.
Yes - and again, more variety available would be excellent

Ok, my replies are in orange.

Oh, only other reply I'll make. GW has always been good at marketing to CURRENT gamers and customers. They have been good at making gamers WANT stuff. They have not really marketed outside of certain channels because of their belief of the niche nature of the business. Their ability to draw new gamers in has always relied on doorways and demo games. (Independent doorways to expose people and their own stores for the demo games.) They are very good at it when you give them the chance, but it also make them believe that they know their business better than others. In a lot of ways this is very true, lots of the things I read on Dakka are off-base because they are NOT what GW is. But it can put extreme blinders on you as well. I've seen the good, but I've seen them lose their sight as well........

 Mannahnin wrote:
Magic has kept on well, but D&D has taken steps back and lost market dominance.

It's true that Hasbro does not care about D&D. For them, it is the gazebo tacked alongside WOTC's MTG juggernaut. RPGs are on a downswing, and there's now an actual competitive marketplace out there. 20 years ago, D&D was the only game in town (ah-ha), but now there's retroclones and alternatives, from spartan homebrew PDFs all the way to the thriving product range of Paizo's Pathfinder. Ironically, it was WOTC itself that did this, but creating the OGL, a djinn that's long since escaped its lamp and will not be returned thither.

The thing about RPGs is that a good games master will have enough imagination to create his own setting and stories and set them in the the context of any suitable set of rules.

There are so many different rulesets around now you are spoilt for choice.

Also you don't need a lot of terrain and models like you do for a wargame.

In other words, I think RPGs are still big but they are played by people who don't need to go to the RPG shop every month to get a new set of adventures and things.

Kirby is preparing to retire. He dont care for what will be GW after he gets out. What he care about is how his retirement plan is goying on. My country is governed by people like that, i know what im talking about.

On the bright sight, it is probably that after Kirby retirement, the new CEO will look to the situation, do the maths, and GW will come back as it should...

Someone else took over as CEO a couple of years ago.

I don't know how old Kirby is but his retirement plan might include regular dividends from his GW shareholdings.

Hi Killkrazy.
The following is my recollection of what happend with the new 'C.E.O' GW decided to hire...(It may not be 100% accurate, but quite close.)

Apparently any PLC having a Chairman that is the C.E.O. is frowned upon/illegal.Mr Kirby did both jobs on his £400k+ salery.

Then he hired mark Wells as C.E.O , to stop GW plc from being 'frowned upon' by the people in power/shareholders etc.

After MR Wells had served his contract time (5 years?)on about £150k a year.(Focusing on more cost cutting , maximizing profits by R.O.W embargo ,)He left the company quietly with a slightly longer but good CV .

And then Mr Kirby offers to take on the job of C.E.O. temporarily (Untill he retires in 2-3 years time?)And gave himself a pay rise, (Oddly enough he did NOT take a pay cut when Mr Wells was doing half his old job as C.E.O.)

AFAIK, Mr Kirby got his buy out investment back when GW floated as a PLC .His Shares have netted him £Ms in dividends over the years.(Not to mention his massive pay grade.)

I think Mr Kirby got his option on (free?)shares as part of his original contract.Even if he had to buy them, his returns through dividends over the years would have covered the initial purchase price. (Appx £500k dividend on his shares last pay out.Thats just one out of 20 dividend payouts!)

I think Mr Kirby had taken the decision to get as much money out of GW as he can before he retires, rather than rely on long term dividends in a toy soldier company seeing him through retirement.He is in a prime position to see how vunerable a company like GW plc is to miss- management!

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Magic has kept on well, but D&D has taken steps back and lost market dominance.

It's true that Hasbro does not care about D&D. For them, it is the gazebo tacked alongside WOTC's MTG juggernaut. RPGs are on a downswing, and there's now an actual competitive marketplace out there. 20 years ago, D&D was the only game in town (ah-ha), but now there's retroclones and alternatives, from spartan homebrew PDFs all the way to the thriving product range of Paizo's Pathfinder. Ironically, it was WOTC itself that did this, but creating the OGL, a djinn that's long since escaped its lamp and will not be returned thither.

20 years ago Vampire: The Masquerade and a whole wave of storytelling-focused, RP-intensive games were taking over the market, and D&D (while still the biggest game) was considered unfashionable and backwards by much of the gaming community. At the same time, TSR was in their death spiral of corporate mismanagement.

Of course Hasbro doesn’t love D&D the way the founders of WotC loved D&D. No non-geek does or would. Peter Adkison and his folks loved D&D enough to buy the sinking TSR to save D&D, enough to put a vast amount of resources into the 3E launch and original super-cheap, high-production value core books, and enough to create the OGL to ensure that no corporate owner could ever legally lock away/suppress the D&D name and system, as was a real danger when TSR was sinking toward bankruptcy. The OGL is what paved the way for the retroclones, and I don’t know if one can really consider that ironic, as it was part of the point. When they created the OGL they were explicitly freeing the Djinn.

Anyway, they were okay having D&D bring in low profits or even be a net loss (for example their game store in Seattle was an over the top showcase of geek fun, but bled money), because they didn't need it to be profitable, since they had Magic. Once Hasbro bought them, the idea of handling D&D like that went out the window, so we got 3.5 and then 4th editions, as Hasbro wanted more revenue from the game.

Which worked when D&D and MTG came from the same budget, but since they were split Wizards have had all the money in the world to do new Magic stuff, but not for D&D stuff.