http://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/04/the-iron-fist-how-games-workshop-intends-to-monopolise-the-online-sale-of-products/

magine the scenario: you are a large scale distributor of a product. For years you have been selling these products globally; you’ve shown a firm hand in dictating how much these products cost in these specific regions. Australia, for example, as an out-of-the-way market with a high cost of living, pays almost double compared to the US.

Then: the internet. A new global marketplace grows rapidly year-on-year. Independent retailers across the US and Europe begin shipping these products to regions like Australia, regions you once controlled with an iron fist. Your grip slips. The genie is out of the bottle. A more savvy consumer base becomes aware of just how badly they’ve been treated. They import from overseas. They buy less locally.

Do you…

A) Reduce the price of the products in response to a more competitive retail environment, growing your market, embracing the consumers who want to buy and use your products?

Or…

B) Do everything within your power to manipulate and control the global market, effectively shuttering the distribution model that helped build your company into the juggernaut it is today.

Games Workshop went with option B.

————–
Globally, Games Workshop is probably the most recognisable brand in all of tabletop gaming, but in Australia consumers grow frustrated. Prices are overwhelmingly inflated, Australians pay almost twice what Americans do and that discrepancy has remained in spite of competition from online retailers.

Much like the price of video games, it’s an issue that has refused to disappear, and Games Workshop has decided to take action. But instead of changing its pricing structure, making prices fairer for Australians, its solution has been to close the net on all online sales, meaning that all Games Workshop retail partners can no longer sell products online, only in-store, effectively destroying the online independent Game Workshop market in one fell swoop.

In short: if you want to buy Games Workshop products online, you can only buy them from the corporate Games Workshop website.

“GAMES WORKSHOP believes that its best interests are served by reserving online retail sales of its products in North America to GAMES WORKSHOP’S own corporate website,” reads a new Games Workshop agreement, sent out to independent retailers on March 15.

“North American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, webportal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind.”

In addition, retailers across the globe are now being strong-armed into selling only within their own region in what is essentially a region locking of physical table-top gaming products.

How is this possible? How can this be enforced? Simply put, it can’t. But as per this new agreement, Games Workshop will not deal with retailers unless they follow this new code of conduct. If you, as a retailer, want to buy Games Workshop products at cost price from official distributors you must follow these guidelines. If you don’t, you won’t get the product. Simple as that.

And that’s bad news for Australians who want to pay a fair price for Games Workshop products.

————


“In Australia it’s the worst I believe. Their prices are close to double what we have here in Canada.”

Matthew Glanfield runs MiniWarGaming, a site and store that works as a community hub for Games Workshop tabletop gaming. It provides information and is home for a massive community of readers interested in Games Workshop products, but as a business 80 per cent of its revenue comes from online sales.

Just under two weeks ago, as a result of the new policies put in place by Games Workshop, Matthew Glanfield announced they would be closing their store. What other choice do they have?

“Rather than trying to fix [price] fluctuations,” he explained, in a YouTube video discussing the closing of the stores, “they decided to not let you sell outside of [them].”

But just how bad are the price fluctuations?

Take The Island of Blood, a package that contains “everything you need to start playing Warhammer”. In the US, on the official Games Workshop site, this package costs $99. In Australia it costs $165. This is a regular discrepancy; in fact, it’s quite generous compared to other products sold. Chaos Space Marines, for example, cost $37.25 in the US, but $62 in Australia. The price difference tends to range from 60 to 90 per cent.

That’s a pretty big discrepancy.

Locally, Games Workshop have been reluctant to talk about the price differential, or discuss the new regulations. When we finally got in touch with someone in Australia we were told they were “too busy” to comment and, even if they did have time, they wouldn’t be able to comment on the price situation. Prices, we were informed, are set in the UK.

But with regards to online sales, Games Workshop’s retailer policy justifies its new rules as an attempt to build upon the customer relationship created by purchasing in brick-and-mortar retail stores. According to Games Workshop, this move is an attempt to stop online retailers from “free-riding on the significant investment made by in-store retailers in promoting the hobby”.

Simply put, Games Workshop is claiming these new changes are, in part, an attempt to protect local retailers, to help support that side of the industry. But, speaking to Australian independent retailers, these changes do not protect their sizeable investment. On the contrary, it undermines it.

————
“When the Aussie dollar got strong things became bad for us. Even with shipping costs it was still cheaper for players to order overseas. Our margins were already gak and now they’re worse.”

Speaking on condition of anonymity, one local independent retailer told us that new changes put in place by Games Workshop negatively impact business. Over the past three years, sales of Games Workshop products has dwindled, and these new regulations could make things worse.

“Games Workshop see this online sales thing as the solution to problems at retail,” the retailer explained, “but it actually just makes things worse. People don’t say, ‘oh now I’ll have to buy locally’, they just say, ‘I’m not going to buy this product anymore.’”

And this is precisely what’s been happening at retail in Australia over the past few years.

“Games Workshop used to be really good for us,” said the retailer, “but it’s been like this for years now and nothing has changed. Now we don’t sell anything.”

And the reduced sales of Games Workshop product are compounded by the fact that retailers must continually hold a minimum value of product in store if they are to be allowed to buy and sell the product.

“The current margins on Games Workshop products are very low and if we want to sell their products, we have to dedicate a set amount of product and space in our store. And space to a retailer is money.”

It’s strange that instead of embracing a growing market, it appears as though Games Workshop has hit the panic button and is now in the process of putting it in a chokehold. In Australia, at least, that appears to be having a negative impact. The market is changing; that’s indisputable and of course it is the prerogative of Games Workshop to respond to that change, but once again it appears as though the Australian consumer is being asked to bear the brunt of an evolving marketplace and that simply doesn’t seem fair.

Our anonymous retailer agrees.

“There’s an easy solution,” they explained. “Instead of charging us, say, $10 for a product, why not just charge $8. That way we can pass on the saving to consumers.”

Why not indeed?

The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

Pretty much this.

Gamers and companies can put forward a clear case of GW predatory tactics, but at the end of the day gamers don't care enough to do anything about it unless it hurts them financially. Much like citizens who have a grievance with government polices, they grumble but won't do anything until it hurts their pockets and by then it's too late.

Nothing new there unless you count the anonymous independent store owner speaking out (seriously is the anonymity really needed, surely GW aren't- ok yea I could see them no longer selling to someone who badmouths them).

But anyway it's good to see this sort of crap not going unnoticed.

What I find interesting is that a relatively important news outlet is reporting this - do Kotaku usually report on GW stuff?

I'll admit to being not too clued up on the whole Oz/GW prices thing, but I do wonder is it unique to GW? What sort of markup (if any) would an Aussie pay on an average product from Mantic, Warlord, Privateer Press etc?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

Yup. This is, in fact, the only solution when there is no customer interaction.

Riquende wrote:
I'll admit to being not too clued up on the whole Oz/GW prices thing, but I do wonder is it unique to GW? What sort of markup (if any) would an Aussie pay on an average product from Mantic, Warlord, Privateer Press etc?

Within the hobby it is a pretty unique problem. As far as I am aware Mantic, Warlord and PP all allow me to jump on their online stores and order from whatever country they happen to be based in for the same prices as everyone else after taking currency exchange into account. GW on the other hand are trying to force me to pay AU prices.

Outside of the hobby a lot of things (Adobe software and videogames are the more notorious that I know of) are doing this, the difference is not many of them are trying to stop you ordering the stuff from america, most are trying to be competitive.

I can understand it from 3 points.

Consumer:
Which I am, my money is precious to me and I/we want to stretch it as far as it will go to get the maximum out of the hobby whilst, well basically living.

The majority of everything is 50% more in Australia. Cars, Games, Movies, and so forth. We are used to being taken for granted on a market where in other countries the consumer is king. In Australia it is a case of, well if you don't like it, don't get it.

I think most companies view Australia as a fertile consumer market where our economy has not been negatively affected by the GFC, in fact it has gained from it. I bet my left nut that this is the reasoning GW went with option B as well. To stay afloat and offer cheaper miniatures elsewhere, they can juice the Australian market for that much more.

Unfortunately we don't have a choice sometimes. Whilst I agree boycotting for a year may get the attention of GW. It would only hurt the GW franchise owners. Australia isn't like America and the UK - GW is practically the only miniature gaming stores around where you can play socially. Could you go without Warhammer for an entire year as your hobby, without the assurance that doing so would still not lower prices and possibly mean the closure of all of these stores? Which brings me to my next point.

Operator:
When I initially started I got to know the owner of my LGS. He is a nice bloke, who was into the hobby and a great painter. I also got to know his staff. Within the month major chances underwent the worldwide structure of GW based off of what I assume was negative profits and a reactive business plan to cut operating costs whilst maintaing prices and hopefully increasing profits as a result (This rarely works, GW need a 101 on Business)

The owner lost a handful of experienced staff, and now has to run the store with only himself and 1 experience staff member with no relief because of running costs.

He is under pressure to keep the store open, to sell, to keep it open, to live and let others enjoy the hobby. His hands are tied as the article said, and he couldn't go into any great detail, from head office UK. They set the prices and sell at those prices to him, and in turn he has to make his overhead, profits and living expenses from that.

When you see 40-50% off RRP online as a consumer, you face a hard decision. Because this isn't a case of supporting an Australian business, you're funding the greed of head office GW and now only barely keeping two employees afloat under greater stresses to sell, and try to keep the current players happy and informed. In the past 6 months or more the operator knew the majority of his players bought their miniatures online, because he didn't sell them to him. And as a result he has to show a level of displeasement by not assisting them as much as he would people who purchased in store. This is fair in his eyes, but ultimately that means Australians are paying that extra percentage for assistance from the GW representatives and employees? Something given freely to US and UK players - ie: Customer Service.

During a weekend, I can hardly get assistance for a painting session or information on a game because the poor guys are so busy with potential new players, who usually get drawn in, but then immediately put off by the prices after the intro game, assistance for new/experienced games, and trying to get painters in store for sessions and so forth in the hope that they may spend cash on further products. Personally, I purchased all my supplies and figures from the store, I could have gone online but I thought I would help out where I could.

Not an easy position to be when your hands are practically tied. Understanding his point makes my decision harder. Because I simply cannot justify spending 40-50% more on the same product to ensure continued Customer Service. Moreover, when does that good grace of service run out?

It's paramount to charging to hire a table or their services, and at the rate things are going, it really wouldn't surprise me if operators had to begin doing this.

3. Head Office GW
The problem. They won't talk about it. They won't explain it.

I'm quite certain that is Australia dropped off the Earth as well, they wouldn't care. If the pricing issue is as bad as they indicate the online sales to be, they should have recognised the problem lie in pricing, not online sales. Depending how this goes, I may lodge an investigation into the matter with the ACCC, however, being that it is online sales of an overseas nature. I'm not sure what could be done.

Any discrepancies will have to be taken up by the online sellers to see if what GW is doing - contracting sale of their product, is legal.

But at the end of the day, what stops someone making a friend online in USA/UK - and getting them to purchase the boxes for cheaper, send them to me in Australia and then back door sell them for a greater profit/keep for myself.

This leaves GW open to illegal imitations and piracy similar to what the gaming industry experienced. And as a result, they changed business practices towards F2P and DLC packed games to offer cheaper AAA titles than they used to be originally.

I just can't fathom the level of ignorance that head office has chosen to take. And makes me question whether now is the time to begin collecting my CSM army online before it goes away, or just boycott the hobby altogether.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What I find interesting is that a relatively important news outlet is reporting this - do Kotaku usually report on GW stuff?

Kotaku isn't the BBC, or even IGN, it's basically a popular videogame blog site that went pro. They probably published it because someone's friend is an Australian and talks to them about GW.

If Penny Arcade covered the story it would have more impact because they have such a huge readership. The PA guys actually play 40K and other games.

GW is not a franchise.

I'm going to say that the answer (where available) is to decouple the badly called HHobby from GW. I play 40k but I don't play with GW's figures.

Those who can't play any other place than a FLGS might be limited but all others that play in private events or houses would do a great favor to everybody by dropping GW's stock for other companies, if people can get into their minds that an Ultramarine melta gunner is nothing more than a figure with a certain type of gun they will be able to open their minds to a huge world of options bringing extra creativity to the Hobby and flipping the bird to GW along the way.

The main problem from my PoV is not GW but rather those co-opted players that can't imagine that a LRBT is anything else than what GW choses to sell because... because... because GW said so and it's set on stone forever, ever.

M.

 jonolikespie wrote:
GW is not a franchise.

What would they be called technically then?

 Banicks wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
GW is not a franchise.

What would they be called technically then?

A franchise is where an individual (the franchisee) is permitted to trade under the companies name. GW does not do this - stores are not franchised out, they are run purely by Games Workshop.

 Banicks wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
GW is not a franchise.

What would they be called technically then?

Um.. I don't know, a shop?

A franchise is when a hugely successful company lets someone buy the right to use their name, products and business model but the store is owned by the person who owns it, not the company. GW stores are owned by GW, the people running them are managers who get paid no matter what, not owners needing to make a certain amount to be profitable that month.

ninja'd

Riquende wrote:
I'll admit to being not too clued up on the whole Oz/GW prices thing, but I do wonder is it unique to GW? What sort of markup (if any) would an Aussie pay on an average product from Mantic, Warlord, Privateer Press etc?

As a rule, things are usually 170~% higher here than in the states.

There are a number of reasons for this:

1. Centerlink. Everyone has a lot of money to go around (well, not a lot, but for some it's enough that they don't seem to feel the need to work.), so they can usually afford the prices.
2. The dollar was low 10 years ago. Not really an excuse anymore, but many large companies stick to their guns that we must pay $100 for new games instead of the US standard $60. Even if they let us pay $60 for every CoD release, they'd still make more, purchase for purchase than they do right now.
3. We don't stop buying.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
GW is not a franchise.

What would they be called technically then?

A franchise is where an individual (the franchisee) is permitted to trade under the companies name. GW does not do this - stores are not franchised out, they are run purely by Games Workshop.

Cheers

Getting back to the point you were trying to make Banicks, I know exactly what you mean about wondering weither it's worth collecting a new army or just boycotting the hobby altogether. The thing is I'd boycott the HHHHOBBY, not the hobby. GW are content to pretend they are the only company that makes toy soldiers and we will buy anything they make, no matter how hostile they are towards us. I'm not going to quit GW entirely right now, I still have finished armies I can play, but when the next edition of fantasy rolls around my continued participation will depend entirely on how much the meta changes and whether or not mu current models will be competitive. As it is I have already started trying to push other systems on my gaming group and open their eyes to the other companies out there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Riquende wrote:
I'll admit to being not too clued up on the whole Oz/GW prices thing, but I do wonder is it unique to GW? What sort of markup (if any) would an Aussie pay on an average product from Mantic, Warlord, Privateer Press etc?

As a rule, things are usually 170~% higher here than in the states.
]

Ah, no. Most things are 20-40% more, and only certain hard to transfer items (like cars and software which has regional controls) or certain 'protected' markets (like books and some produce) get marked up far more.

I did a comparison of other miniatures sellers the other day, and most (PP, Infinity and malifaux) mark up 20-30% between UK and Australian RRP, which is also about what shipping costs, so our model stores over here can still make a living off them. Even if shipping was free, most people don't mind paying an extra 20-30% for stuff from your FLGS, as you're supporting the local hobby. The 180%+ that a lot of GW stuff is marked up is ridiculous though, and people find it hard to stomach those prices.

That article is nonsense. The price discrepancy is because Aussie's have a higher minimum wage. That's how world-wide market prices are set for everything.

At least, that's what the men in white armour keep telling me...

GW hates the Internet the same as Don Quixote hates windmills. They both believe in certain victory if they just keep tilting at it long enough.

Hardly new news,

and not only folk in Aus stuffer from this behaviour

Just look at the prices people in Europe pay for identical electronic kit (eg games consoles, PC) compared to the USA

the mark up is a lot more than just the extra tax we pay (prices have got slightly closer in the last few years)

companys exploit the market in whatever way they can, it's virtually a duty to shareholders who (legally) are their main concern (privately held companies have more flexability, whether or not they choose to use it....)

EDIT: not that I wouldn't prefer a more enlightened pricing policy for our AUS compatriots if GW really does want to keep it's markets separate as it clearly does

Let's face it guys, our country sucks... (if you play any sort of miniature game ).

Seriously though, vote with your wallet. I still enjoy games of 40k but I proxy most of my models these days. I have already planned out my next couple of purchases for my imperial guard, none of them will be from GW though.

masterdoobie wrote:
Let's face it guys, our country sucks... (if you play any sort of miniature game ).

Seriously though, vote with your wallet. I still enjoy games of 40k but I proxy most of my models these days. I have already planned out my next couple of purchases for my imperial guard, none of them will be from GW though.

Not any sort of miniature's game. Only one in particular. Other miniatures games aren't nearly so out of whack, because they have to be internationally competitive.

 Maddermax wrote:

masterdoobie wrote:
Let's face it guys, our country sucks... (if you play any sort of miniature game ).

Seriously though, vote with your wallet. I still enjoy games of 40k but I proxy most of my models these days. I have already planned out my next couple of purchases for my imperial guard, none of them will be from GW though.

Not any sort of miniature's game. Only one in particular. Other miniatures games aren't nearly so out of whack, because they have to be internationally competitive.

Exactly. GW are the only ones in the hobby taking this to the extent they do, most other companies just tack a few extra bucks on for shipping.

Don't buy from them. Send them receipts of other miniatures form other companies you bought instead.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That article is nonsense. The price discrepancy is because Aussie's have a higher minimum wage. That's how world-wide market prices are set for everything.

At least, that's what the men in white armour keep telling me...

I wonder where they are now?

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't buy from them. Send them receipts of other miniatures form other companies you bought instead.

I had too look twice. Frazz? outside off-topic?

Anyway, back OT. Normally, the sight of Australians suffering would fill my heart with joy, but this is a step too far for GW. It's probably been brought up before but is there nothing the Australian office for fair trading/monopoly commision/consumer rights/whatever you call it, can do about it?

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't buy from them. Send them receipts of other miniatures form other companies you bought instead.

That is the way to send a message to GW. And GW listens to that message. I did essentially the same thing when I first stopped purchasing GW products. I e-mailed GW and calmly explained what I was not happy with. I explained a series of purchases of GW products that I had planned to make, listing the dollar value. Then I explained that in lieu of making those purchases I would instead spend the money on starter sets for competing games, describing the exact products I was purchasing and the prices. I explained that I had heretofore not purchased a single product from those competitors, but would now be giving those products a try due to Games Workshop's policies and practices that I disagreed with. I explained that if those policies and practices did not change, my buying habits would remain as I had indicated, i.e. not purchasing GW products and instead using that budget to purchase competitors' products.

Shortly thereafter I received an e-mail response and a personal phone call from GW US customer service. I explained again what I did not like, and although the customer service rep was not able to offer any solutions or make any policy statements, the company did take time to respond to that communication.

It is a tangible demonstration of loss of market share, which is worse than the loss of a customer.

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't buy from them. Send them receipts of other miniatures form other companies you bought instead.

Actually, this may not be a bad idea. And then send photos of you playing a game of Fantasy, LOTR, 40k, Epic etc. with these non-GW minis. It'll be funny, at least!

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't buy from them. Send them receipts of other miniatures form other companies you bought instead.

I had too look twice. Frazz? outside off-topic?

Anyway, back OT. Normally, the sight of Australians suffering would fill my heart with joy, but this is a step too far for GW. It's probably been brought up before but is there nothing the Australian office for fair trading/monopoly commision/consumer rights/whatever you call it, can do about it?

We have the ACCC. About a decade ago when I was first looking into the hobby there were a lot of brick and mortar stores around that sold Warhammer and 40k. Then GW changed it so that only GW labelled stores could sell it, or, if an independant hobby store stocked GW supplies it had to be the same price if not more because they sold it to them at practically shop price if they bought it from GW directly. So a box of SM that costs $62 in GW, costed $80 in an independent hobby retailer. As a result, independents rarely stock GW and if they do it's usually quite old stock and extremely expensive. Is there a law to prevent that? Not to my knowledge. It's GW's right to choose whom they sell stock to and judging by the most recent capability for them to ultimately close down all online sellers, GW spend more on their legal department to find ways of legally monopolising than they do on PR and ways of bring down RRP for the consumer.

Can the ACCC do anything about that? Not to my knowledge, as we've said, Australians get ripped off on lots of things. iTunes for example, a song will cost a US consumer 75cents, it will cost Australians $1.99. Even taking into consideration taxes, and foreign exchange, it's almost like we're paying for everything to do with overheads and running the Australian GW stores, or they just think we're silly little Kangaroo farmers who don't understand economics and business.

It's quite obvious to see this is definitely going to hurt them long term worldwide, it may boost online sales for their site slightly, but it will turn away more online sales overall. Losing them yearly profits where they would have supplied the online retailers previously, thus overall profits will continue to lower when so many other miniatures are on the uprising. Obviously their number crunchers feel the increase in price to come this July will offset the loss of those non-purchasers.

As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

I will have to have a think on it, because already beginning to tally a small force of HQ, 2 CSM squads, Terminator, Havoc and Heldrake is in the vicinity of $600. Not to mentioned I've spent probably close to $800 on supplies, paints and the starter kits - without an army to show that stands a chance.

Perhaps something will come of all this in the meantime, and bring about price changes mid year for Australians? But I seriously doubt it.

Kotaku is the video game off shoot of Gawker.com. Which is essentially a tabloid. Hardly the pinnacle of journalism. Half their "video game" articles normally revolve around cosplay.

Australia sits in a giant back of suck basically. GW isn't the only product that is horribly overprices. Its almost all consumer goods in general. It just makes for good internet rage when new products come out.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States

This is what I suggest(although I doubt it will ever happen).
Independents worldwide need to form themselves into a body that can speak with one voice, who then can go to Games Workshop and have a stronger bargaining tool. After all, some are either quitting or are just moaning on here. You need to do something guys instead of just going along with the latest nonsense from Nottingham. Gw surely don't expect to have people ordering in their thousands because of their latest sales embargo?
I don't think its enough for us to tell each other just to not buy GW stuff anymore. But I think if the independents went to GW as one force and said "Until you provide fairer terms and conditions for all, we are not going to stock your products and instead will put all our support into your rivals." That is the only way that their sales would spectacularly fall off.
Far fetched? Maybe.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Hardly new news,

and not only folk in Aus stuffer from this behaviour

Just look at the prices people in Europe pay for identical electronic kit (eg games consoles, PC) compared to the USA

the mark up is a lot more than just the extra tax we pay (prices have got slightly closer in the last few years)

companys exploit the market in whatever way they can, it's virtually a duty to shareholders who (legally) are their main concern (privately held companies have more flexability, whether or not they choose to use it....)

EDIT: not that I wouldn't prefer a more enlightened pricing policy for our AUS compatriots if GW really does want to keep it's markets separate as it clearly does

That is because of the USD's status as the number 1 reserve currency. The situation cannot last for ever. The longer things go on with the US printing dollars to pay its debts, the more the value will decline. As has been seen in the past few years.

Is it just me, or is there a real sense of genuine, heartfelt, end of the tether feeling towards GW this time?

Not the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a real groundswell of overwhelming exasperation where people simply seem to be walking away from GW with some degree of finality?

I've just finished my second, and final army for 40k. I'm now moving on to adventures in other games and our local club has migrated from exclusive 40k to probably 30-40% of games played each week in just over a year.

 Banicks wrote:
We have the ACCC. About a decade ago when I was first looking into the hobby there were a lot of brick and mortar stores around that sold Warhammer and 40k. Then GW changed it so that only GW labelled stores could sell it, or, if an independant hobby store stocked GW supplies it had to be the same price if not more because they sold it to them at practically shop price if they bought it from GW directly. So a box of SM that costs $62 in GW, costed $80 in an independent hobby retailer.

This never happened.

There have been occasional indies who have set prices higher than GW's RRP, but that's entirely off their own bat, not anything GW have forced them to. And those stores tended to either not last long, or changed their pricing when they realised that they weren't selling anything. The vast majority of independant stockists in Oz have always sold at or under GW's RRP.

GW have at times over the years imposed rules covering how much stores could discount.

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Where abouts in Sydney are you? There's a rather kickass game store in South West Sydney I frequent that sells and encourages the playing of practically everything.

Oh feth I just realized I'm in their photos for the 6th edition midnight launch.

 azreal13 wrote:
Is it just me, or is there a real sense of genuine, heartfelt, end of the tether feeling towards GW this time?

Not the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a real groundswell of overwhelming exasperation where people simply seem to be walking away from GW with some degree of finality?

I've just finished my second, and final army for 40k. I'm now moving on to adventures in other games and our local club has migrated from exclusive 40k to probably 30-40% of games played each week in just over a year.

It's always been that way. it's just we probably do not see it as much in the UK due to GW having possibly it's strongest market here. The further afield you go, the more public resentment to GW there is, as demonstrated by the guys from Oz on here.

I'm past getting angry at GW and I just do this everytime another one of their antics comes around.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Heck, there are the banners at the top of Dakka, and a number of subforums for other games.. including the official forums for two game companies.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Heck, there are the banners at the top of Dakka, and a number of subforums for other games.. including the official forums for two game companies.

I was going to put your game in there, but the amount of links was just getting tiring

 -Loki- wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Heck, there are the banners at the top of Dakka, and a number of subforums for other games.. including the official forums for two game companies.

I was going to put your game in there, but the amount of links was just getting tiring

No worries.

The big problem remains that finding opponents or regular games nights for non-GW games is a pain; I have Dropzone Commander and Infinity, but am limited to maybe one or two games per month, and this in London, the greatest wargaming city in the world. I can play 40k with different opponents seven days a week.

Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Although its clear that GWs policies are self-defeating. This is in large part due to the fact it's now being run as a corporation for shareholders, and the greedy finance side wants to boost stock as much as possible before retiring with a golden parachute.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The big problem remains that finding opponents or regular games nights for non-GW games is a pain; I have Dropzone Commander and Infinity, but am limited to maybe one or two games per month, and this in London, the greatest wargaming city in the world. I can play 40k with different opponents seven days a week.

Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Although its clear that GWs policies are self-defeating. This is in large part due to the fact it's now being run as a corporation for shareholders, and the greedy finance side wants to boost stock as much as possible before retiring with a golden parachute.

Have you gone the route that we (those of us that support non-gw games) have taken? Grab a second army of Infinity, or DZC and go to your FLGS or club. set up table, sit down and start to paint. if anyone has any questions or shows interest, offer to teach them the game. Give them a small demo based on the time they have (15 minutes if they don't have much time)... Say, "if you want to play, I'll be here on x day from this time to this time." If people have opponents, they're more likely to pick up the game.

 Grimtuff wrote:
It's always been that way. it's just we probably do not see it as much in the UK due to GW having possibly it's strongest market here.

Yes and no.

Back when I got into 40K (nearly 20 years ago now), the complaints were there, but nowhere near as pervasive. The focus was generally on price rises, but to do with stuff being more expensive (which is simple human nature) rather than being too expensive (which seems to be the more common complaint these days). Add in all of GW's other shenanigans over the last few years (the Finecast debacle, the legal tousles, the secrecy policies, the war against online stores, and the general air of complete insanity) and the swell of negativity that seems to pervade the 'GW Hobby' is vastly greater than I've ever seen it before.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Spoken like someone not living in Australia. The people that make the news and talk about things like how wealthy Australans are have no fething idea what it's like to not be one of the 5%. You can see this when you have a moron MP saying things like people on $140,000au per year are not wealthy.

Try living here before making claims about our economy.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though,...

Minimum wage is completely irrelevant. It matters for the things that people [i]have to buy, like bread, and fuel, and beer... but when you're talking about toy soldiers, disposable income is the far more relevant figure to be looking at.

A very large number of the people living on minimum wage are also living under the poverty line. Toy soldiers are the least of their concerns.

 -Loki- wrote:

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there

Well said. I'm loathe to pin any blame on my friends in Australia, but at some point it stops being wholly Ike Turner's fault, and it starts being at least partially Tina's, for staying. I think GWS has at this point adequately delivered the message about how it feels about you.

I know Jervis says he only hits you because he loves you so much, and how he's going to change this time, but baby, he won't.

 -Loki- wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Spoken like someone not living in Australia. The people that make the news and talk about things like how wealthy Australans are have no fething idea what it's like to not be one of the 5%. You can see this when you have a moron MP saying things like people on $140,000au per year are not wealthy.

Try living here before making claims about our economy.

I lived in Brissy for two years doing my 6th form, and while people do run the gamut from relatively wealthy to povvos on welfare, by and large there is a huge safety net for people who deign not to work/can't find it. Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX. The general standard of living is much higher than here in London, where minimum wage is £5.25 an hour and you can really struggle to get by on that.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX.

Minimum wage currently won't cover the rent on a house in Brisbane.

At the moment in the city (spring hill used as an example suburb) rent is $300 per week on average. When you get to Greenslopes (which is a bit out of the city and on the cheaper side, atleast I think southside tends to be cheaper) you are paying $215 a week on average. Cooparoo in a similar area is $220. If you go north (lets say Clayfield) you are paying $215, bayside (Lota) is $231 and west (Indro) is $260.

Slacks Creek, where I'm living now, which isn't that shiny of an area, is $195 a week on average. It's 24 minutes from the city centre, has very limited public transport unless you drive about 10 minutes to get some, and is quite a seedy area. And it is barely below $200 a week.

These are just pulled off of the internet when I googled 'average rent in Brisbane'. As you can see, it's pretty damn expensive. Although those numbers seem really really low compared to what I was finding when I was looking for a place to move out to...hmm...the average that I was finding here at slack's creek was about $220 while I was looking, the information is probably a bit dated

 motyak wrote:
At the moment in the city (spring hill used as an example suburb) rent is $300 per week on average. When you get to Greenslopes (which is a bit out of the city and on the cheaper side, atleast I think southside tends to be cheaper) you are paying $215 a week on average. Cooparoo in a similar area is $220. If you go north (lets say Clayfield) you are paying $215, bayside (Lota) is $231 and west (Indro) is $260.

Maybe for units. You're not going to find a house around Indro for less than $350 a week, and it's more likely to be around the $400-600 mark. Anything anywhere in Brisbane outside of the dodgy housing-commission-heavy areas for under $300 is scarce.

True, as I said I just pulled it off the first site I found when googling 'average rent in brisbane', and that it didn't really match what I found when looking late last year

So do people actually call/pronounce it "breezy"? I used to support a lot of Australians; many of which were in Brisbane, one of which told me they "all called it that"; but he seemed a little off so I did not believe him.

 Ouze wrote:
So do people actually call/pronounce it "breezy"? I used to support a lot of Australians; many of which were in Brisbane, one of which told me they "all called it that"; but he seemed a little off so I did not believe him.

'Brizzy', not 'breezy'


Or 'Brisvegas' for the bogans.

This....

 Frazzled wrote:
It is a tangible demonstration of loss of market share, which is worse than the loss of a customer.

....is why I don't buy this:

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:companys exploit the market in whatever way they can, it's virtually a duty to shareholders who (legally) are their main concern (privately held companies have more flexability, whether or not they choose to use it....)

GW don't live in a bubble where they can exploit the market whatever way they can, people can and do play other games. Based on my observations in Australia is that the hobby as a whole has been growing a lot and GW's share of that market has been dropping (at least in the circles I used to frequent). If GW have been maintaining steady or slightly growing revenue in Australia, they are missing out on the larger market with non-competitive business practices. IMO, if they stop the majority of people importing to Oz, they are going to lose even more market share.

I know I personally would often buy a box here and a box there from FLGS's and GW stores and would even buy paints and such, but would also save money buying certain things that I could wait for internationally. If I can no longer buy things at internationally competitive prices, I'm out, and you can bet I'm going to be pissed about it because I only recently started an IG army.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX.

Sure, at minimum wage, you have your car, your house, and your beer (seriously, XXXX? Picking the worst beer possible isn't helping you). You've got your food. You're paying your ludicrously priced utilities due to recent taxes (things have changed in recent years).

What we're arguing is that after living expenses in Australia, you don't generally have the disposeable income to pay what GW is asking. However, you generally do have the disposeable income to pay what Corvus Belli, Mantic, Privateer Press (just barely) are asking.

Cost of living is high in Auatralia, which offsets the higher minimum wage. Some other companies have seen this, and still wanting Australian customers, have priced their products here accordingly at retail. GW haven't, and have made damn sure we won't be their customer at retail or from ordering overseas.

 -Loki- wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX.

Sure, at minimum wage, you have your car, your house, and your beer (seriously, XXXX? Picking the worst beer possible isn't helping you). You've got your food. You're paying your ludicrously priced utilities due to recent taxes (things have changed in recent years).

What we're arguing is that after living expenses in Australia, you don't generally have the disposeable income to pay what GW is asking. However, you generally do have the disposeable income to pay what Corvus Belli, Mantic, Privateer Press (just barely) are asking.

Cost of living is high in Auatralia, which offsets the higher minimum wage. Some other companies have seen this, and still wanting Australian customers, have priced their products here accordingly at retail. GW haven't, and have made damn sure we won't be their customer at retail or from ordering overseas.

Yeah, Australia does have good safety nets for people on the bottom end to allow them to get by in an economy where the essentials are more expensive. But what that means is there's not as large of a gap between the people struggling and the median. So the disposable income of the population relative to the price of goods one would buy with disposable income really isn't all that exceptional.

I'm currently working in the US and getting paid by Australia to do my work, Americans doing the exact same thing than me are getting paid slightly less, yes, but they can do significantly more disposable income spending than I could. They can afford to go to the pub more, they can afford to eat out more often, they can afford to buy nicer cars, etc etc. I'm extremely jealous of my US friend who owns a sports car that I could never afford in Oz despite the fact he earns several grand less than me doing the exact same job.

It's not JUST about how much you earn and it's not JUST about how much things cost, it's about how much money the median population has to spend and what they can buy with it and while Australia has good safety nets for the bottom end compared to a lot of other countries, the median really doesn't have a lot of cash to throw around.

We've been getting into Warmachine lately and occasionally the topic of GW does come up. There certainly isn't anyone defending them in these discussions, but everyone seems to agree the models themselves are very good (or literally the best available) and people are, at least, attached to the setting. Even the people who get very incensed when discussing GW are likely to be getting that way because they love the games and/or the settings.

I'm not sure that GW has burned many bridges, even with their policies and prices. I suspect that if they made changes (say they released rules that weren't awful and cut their prices to a third of what they are now) then people would flood back to them, even if those people are currently not playing or even quite vocal about their displeasure with GW.

The situation in New Zealand is even worse I think. For example, the Bretonnian kit for the Leon Leoncouer resin model is NZ$95.00 ($US78.00). That is just insane pricing.

I have brought exactly one new boxed item in the last ten years from GW. All the rest I get off the internet on auction sites.

 Brian Smaller wrote:
The situation in New Zealand is even worse I think. For example, the Bretonnian kit for the Leon Leoncouer resin model is NZ$95.00 ($US78.00). That is just insane pricing.

I have brought exactly one new boxed item in the last ten years from GW. All the rest I get off the internet on auction sites.

Don't worry about the Kiwis, as long as they have their sheep they'll be fine

I just want to jump in to note that you shouldn't conflate minimum wage earners with the poor. So while it's true that the poor probably aren't spending much of their money on GW, the typical minimum wage earner is their core demographic, at least according to Canadian data. I can't imagine the rest of the anglosphere is much different.

As for the actual topic, I'll echo what others have said. There are so many other great games out these days with production values easily matching GW's, I don't understand why so many people don't bother exploring other games. If you don't know what else is out there take fifteen minutes to wander through TMP's gallery forums and you will be amazed.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Brian Smaller wrote:
The situation in New Zealand is even worse I think. For example, the Bretonnian kit for the Leon Leoncouer resin model is NZ$95.00 ($US78.00). That is just insane pricing.

I have brought exactly one new boxed item in the last ten years from GW. All the rest I get off the internet on auction sites.

Don't worry about the Kiwis, as long as they have their sheep they'll be fine

them's fighting words. Of course, this was early 2000-2002 so things must have changed in the decade since. GW prices in Australia are still unjustifiably daft... but someone must be buying them, right?

The fourx was a joke, of course. Little Creatures all the way!

If your renting unemployment benefits barely pay 1 rooms rent, I have no ideas what high unemployment benefits have to do with toy soldiers prices.
The only way someone on unemployment benefits has a good life is if they are selling drugs.

I think GW is pretty much dead in aus, last time i checked a 2000 point ork army in aus it was over $3000 and that was years ago. People are gravitating to other games. The models are not that great, half of em are marines with added wingdings. Other companies models bog all over GWs' in my opinion.

Bullockist wrote:
I think GW is pretty much dead in aus

It's really not. GW still gets the lions share of gamers even here. It's slipping, but not too quickly.

Can Australians buy from (USA) Ebay in Australlia? Maybe second hand is the way to go.

We can buy from the US but something weird happened to US postage costs about 6-12 months ago, they went up by a noticable amount (maybe ebay policy, maybe US post cost rises i don't know). I tend to buy from the UK as it is cheaper and faster. (not GW minis)

Depends wehre and how much you're spending, really. If you're buying one or two boxes infantry, the savings is either not enough to cover the shipping or not worth the wait. If you're buying, say, a whole army, the saving really ramp up.

I'll generally not bother unless the savings exceed $50-$60 after shipping. If I'm just after a box of Termagants or something, I bite the bullet and pay Australian retail, but give the sale to my FLGS, even if it means waiting a week for them to get it in. My last two purchases were exactly this - a Carnifex and a Tyrannofex, both of which, separately (I bought them months apart), wouldn't have saved enough after shipping for me to care. So my FLGS got the money.

Bullockist wrote:
We can buy from the US but something weird happened to US postage costs about 6-12 months ago, they went up by a noticable amount (maybe ebay policy, maybe US post cost rises i don't know). I tend to buy from the UK as it is cheaper and faster. (not GW minis)

The postal hike was US Postal cost rising.

I buy all my models second hand - I mainly buy 40K as I like the background but I can tell you I havent bought at a GW for over 10 years.

The postal cost may have increased on purchases from the US but it is still cheaper than buying locally for GW products. although we in Australia are used to being shafted on prices for most things GW's pricing is exceptionally ridiculous!

My most recent purchase was a tactical squad from the US base coated for $11.50 AUD and around $8.00 postage, compare that to $62 for a tactical squad in a GW AUS store.

While I feel for Australian gamers I can't help but wonder if the price you pay extra for mini's is about the same % of difference as the prices you pay for most other things. You live on an isolated island continent literally on the other side of the world from GW's production facilities. Why wouldn't it be more expensive? Also, why should GW protect stores that run online discounters (of which there's maybe 100 on the net and I'm being nice on that) as opposed to the thousands of stockists worldwide that sell GW product without an online presence.

While it sucks, all GW is doing is protecting it's local stockists from unfair competition from people who don't have anywhere near the cost of doing business that stockists in Australia has. On top of that, I'm fairly certain GW doesn't particularly want to sit around waiting for the next online discounter ponzi scheme to collapse (Ala Maelstrom games) leaving several thousand customers in the lurch with money paid and no product to ever be seen.

A few dozen online retailers or thousands of independent stockists....which is more important? I think the answer is kinda obvious if you run a business.

Shipping costs don't more than double the cost of things Orktavius. And please stop drinking the Kool-Aid and acting like GW are protecting anyone other than themselves. And we don't have 'thousands' of independent stockists.

Ah, Orktavius, America is also a big "island" and GW product has to come all the way from the UK, i wonder what the prices in Hawai or Guam are.

Orktavius wrote:
While I feel for Australian gamers I can't help but wonder if the price you pay extra for mini's is about the same % of difference as the prices you pay for most other things. You live on an isolated island continent literally on the other side of the world from GW's production facilities. Why wouldn't it be more expensive? Also, why should GW protect stores that run online discounters (of which there's maybe 100 on the net and I'm being nice on that) as opposed to the thousands of stockists worldwide that sell GW product without an online presence.

While it sucks, all GW is doing is protecting it's local stockists from unfair competition from people who don't have anywhere near the cost of doing business that stockists in Australia has. On top of that, I'm fairly certain GW doesn't particularly want to sit around waiting for the next online discounter ponzi scheme to collapse (Ala Maelstrom games) leaving several thousand customers in the lurch with money paid and no product to ever be seen.

A few dozen online retailers or thousands of independent stockists....which is more important? I think the answer is kinda obvious if you run a business.

No. You honestly didn't post this.

Sophism is what that's called.

Orktavius wrote:
While it sucks, all GW is doing is protecting it's local stockists from unfair competition from people who don't have anywhere near the cost of doing business that stockists in Australia has.

Ignoring the rest of what you said for a minute, I'm pretty sure that is not unfair competition but rather capitalism. If I can get the same product from somewhere else for less it is on GW to give me a reason to buy from them, I'm not obligated to buy direct in any way nor should they be allowed to simply shut down my other options.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:The big problem remains that finding opponents or regular games nights for non-GW games is a pain; I have Dropzone Commander and Infinity, but am limited to maybe one or two games per month, and this in London, the greatest wargaming city in the world. I can play 40k with different opponents seven days a week.

Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Although its clear that GWs policies are self-defeating. This is in large part due to the fact it's now being run as a corporation for shareholders, and the greedy finance side wants to boost stock as much as possible before retiring with a golden parachute.

This, and my mates already have 40k sets. Being they've invested the amount they have into it, they don't want to abandon it, even when a new edition is released ultimately forcing people to continue upgrading and spending more to stay viable. Combined with the new players who come into the game wanting to play, and are willing to spend the amount of money to get into it. For every experienced player leaving when enough is enough, I imagine 2 more replace them. Thus the cycle continues.

By GW doing this, they've hurt themselves in the long run. Combined with upcoming cheaper hobbies worldwide for miniatures, I imagine in the next decade there will need to be a big restructure of GW - Customer service is already on the decline because of the restructure removing staff, and this is the first step towards bad decisions for the life of a business. I don't want this to happen, but GW need to start getting competitive because they're reaching the end of legally controlling the market, and now they must begin to accept competition.

Orktavius wrote:
While I feel for Australian gamers I can't help but wonder if the price you pay extra for mini's is about the same % of difference as the prices you pay for most other things. You live on an isolated island continent literally on the other side of the world from GW's production facilities. Why wouldn't it be more expensive? Also, why should GW protect stores that run online discounters (of which there's maybe 100 on the net and I'm being nice on that) as opposed to the thousands of stockists worldwide that sell GW product without an online presence.

While it sucks, all GW is doing is protecting it's local stockists from unfair competition from people who don't have anywhere near the cost of doing business that stockists in Australia has. On top of that, I'm fairly certain GW doesn't particularly want to sit around waiting for the next online discounter ponzi scheme to collapse (Ala Maelstrom games) leaving several thousand customers in the lurch with money paid and no product to ever be seen.

A few dozen online retailers or thousands of independent stockists....which is more important? I think the answer is kinda obvious if you run a business.

We do pay more on the majority of things. But we're talking about a model you pay $15, we pay $50. Even including taxes, shipping and overheads, that is still gouging us beyond fairness. Especially when you consider how well our dollar is going compared to the US and UK pound (was in the latter).

If GW recognise the absurd cost of this hobby and lower the prices to what US and Canada pay, which you guys consider to be too much. We would be amazed, they would attract infinitely more Aussie players and sales in store and online.

It's concerning that they're just attempting to push up their stock worth, when in a few more years it will end up declining it from loss of independent online sales. Sure you can boycott, but US and Canada are now about to experience what Australians do, buy it from GW, or don't buy it. Not nice is it. And whilst you and other established players might not be concerned because you're already setup in the hobby. It is one of the first obstacles preventing new players from starting.

I mean, I'm only relatively new to the hobby, but experienced in the world. And if I'm looking at this as a hobby for myself, or my kids, and I can practically taste the greed of GW before I've even started. What does that say about the business as a whole and the hobby? Ultimately, GW are saying you've got to be practically rich, or in surplus of about AU$1000 to field a 2,000 point army and obtain GW supplies to paint it. The latter not being necessary, but you get my meaning.

For reference: If a kid was to walk in to his local GW store in Australia next week and decide that he wanted to play Tau, this is the minimum that he would need:
1 40k Rulebook ($124)
1 Tau Codex ($83)
1 Tau Battleforce ($180)
1 Hobby Starter Set ($96)
1 Dice Block ($13)
= $496, for an absolute minimum sized force. Plus templates, tape measures, spraypaint....
Yeah the rulebook can be found online, but little timmy does not know about online and if he did everything else would be at a discount anyway.

Trasvi wrote:
For reference: If a kid was to walk in to his local GW store in Australia next week and decide that he wanted to play Tau, this is the minimum that he would need:
1 40k Rulebook ($124)
1 Tau Codex ($83)
1 Tau Battleforce ($180)
1 Hobby Starter Set ($96)
1 Dice Block ($13)
= $496, for an absolute minimum sized force. Plus templates, tape measures, spraypaint....
Yeah the rulebook can be found online, but little timmy does not know about online and if he did everything else would be at a discount anyway.

Spray paints of course being $26, templates $22 and tape measures $18 (if you're looking at the skull ones which lets face it, will be the ones pushes towards little timmy).

No sane parent is going to pay $550 for their kid to start a hobby they have no idea if he will enjoy, especially if they are smart enough to ask if that all he will need for a game and get told "a small game".

GW seemed to rely on bringing in new blood to replace the leaving vets for a while but now their prices are simply too high for Timmy to remain their target demographic.

Trasvi wrote:

1 40k Rulebook ($124)
1 Tau Codex ($83)

These are the only things you need if you want to play 40K. Everything else can be substituted by cheaper options. Ofc it will involve unplugging the HHHobby glasses, a mean feat, and educate everybody that GW products and rules are part of the miniature gaming scene not the other way around.

M.

Trasvi wrote:
For reference: If a kid was to walk in to his local GW store in Australia next week and decide that he wanted to play Tau, this is the minimum that he would need:
1 40k Rulebook ($124)
1 Tau Codex ($83)

There's other means to get those. Not allowed at tournamens though.

1 Tau Battleforce ($180)
1 Hobby Starter Set ($96)
1 Dice Block ($13)
= $496, for an absolute minimum sized force. Plus templates, tape measures, spraypaint....

ebay for the most part, the "Hobby Starter Set" is a fool's trap anyway, you get all the stuff for MUCH less and a WAY higher quality than GW. My Da Vinci brushes are endlessly superior to the crap GW sells.

Just for comparison: I bought an entire Goblin army second hand which included 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 8 character models, 11 Squigs and 5 Wolf Riders for 90€ aka 115$. "Duh, those are exceptions". So? They happen. It just takes time. I then scratch-built 3 Goblin Wolf Chariots, 2 Doom Divers, 2 Stone Lobbaz and 2 Spear Chukkaz for a total additional cost of...about 8-10€ aka 11$. With the required paints, that's about 150$ for a very playable 2500 points list.

You can lower the entry point pretty damn low with blood, sweat and effort.

Orktavius wrote:
While I feel for Australian gamers I can't help but wonder if the price you pay extra for mini's is about the same % of difference as the prices you pay for most other things. You live on an isolated island continent literally on the other side of the world from GW's production facilities. Why wouldn't it be more expensive? Also, why should GW protect stores that run online discounters (of which there's maybe 100 on the net and I'm being nice on that) as opposed to the thousands of stockists worldwide that sell GW product without an online presence.

I attempted to answer this about a month ago in the Community Responsibility thread... Using a Space Marine Tactical Squad as my basis, I compared the pricing of the models between GBP, USD, and AUD. My "research" is as follows:

A Space Marine Tactical Squad
GBP - 23.00
USD - 37.25
AUD - 62.00
CAD - 44.75

The above dollar amounts are what a 10 man Tactical Squad costs in the UK, USA, and Australia. For an additional measure, since you're from the land up north, I've added Canada as well.

Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and doesn't fluctuate [it]too[/i] much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)
CAD - 35.22 (roughly 35 dollars)

So just looking at those prices alone, we can see there is some level of price disparity between what UK people pay, and what the rest of us pay. While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... Even looking at Canada the price is slightly staggering. there's about a 20% price difference between what it should roughly cost, and what it does cost. There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD especially when taking into account exchange rates.

Now your question was in relation to price disparity between other products. Well, considering that I've been down this road before... One of the things that was thrown out was an Apple iPod as something that is priced differently in Australia. The Australian iPod Touch black 32gb is 329.00 AUD... the same iPod is 299.00 Not that much of a difference anymore, yet Australians are paying almost double for 10 plastic space mans. This disparity used to be more in previous generations, but it's not now. Even still, that's only a 10% markup. Another company that's in some hot water right now is Adobe. Adobe Creative Suite 6 Design & Web Edition is currently going for 3,175 AUD which includes a goods and services tax. Right now at this moment, I could book a flight from Brisbane, Australia to San Fransisco, Ca, USA for 1,318 (Adjusted for AUD), land in San Fransisco, buy a copy of the same software for 1,812, and then return home to Brisbane. I would end up spending 3130 dollars on the trip, get to see America, and walk away with my brand new software... Something about that is wrong, so wrong in fact that Adobe is coming under fire for their higher prices.

So while there is some price disparity amongst several countries, and GW isn't alone in their strange pricing of Australian goods, they are the ones we're focused on because we're a wargaming forum.

I find apple a bad comparison, they rip EVERYONE off, that being said on further thought GW is going for premium pricing like they are so maybe it's not that far off of a comparison.

That being said I find your research interesting Alfndrate but what about things like tariff's and other taxes the government charges on goods coming into the country. I know for instance that despite all the "free trade agreements" Canada has a 15% tax is still slapped down on every box of toy soldiers that comes into the country. That your minimum wage is almost double mine is surely a factor as well but it's harder to directly relate that to price so I'm more curious about taxes and tariffs charged on shipments would be.

Orktavius wrote:
I find apple a bad comparison, they rip EVERYONE off, that being said on further thought GW is going for premium pricing like they are so maybe it's not that far off of a comparison.

That being said I find your research interesting Alfndrate but what about things like tariff's and other taxes the government charges on goods coming into the country. I know for instance that despite all the "free trade agreements" Canada has a 15% tax is still slapped down on every box of toy soldiers that comes into the country. That your minimum wage is almost double mine is surely a factor as well but it's harder to directly relate that to price so I'm more curious about taxes and tariffs charged on shipments would be.

Hang on, I may have misunderstood this, but you appear to be claiming that Apple rip everyone off in response to a post that demonstrates their pricing disparity is nowhere near as bad as GW, who are you defending?

Please let go of minimum wage as some sort of justification as well, it is meaningless without taking cost of living into account, and, as has been explained already in this thread, cost of living in Oz is substantially higher than the US.

Sure, there may be other taxes and expenses getting the product on shelf, but I'm confident that the price disparity is in no way proportional to these.

Orktavius wrote:
I find apple a bad comparison, they rip EVERYONE off, that being said on further thought GW is going for premium pricing like they are so maybe it's not that far off of a comparison.

But If you look at the three products I listed... Apple had the closest price between American and Australian pricing... And 300 dollars isn't that bad of a price for a piece of technology that is basically a small computer in your hand... My desktop PC and my cell phone are the only two pieces of tech I own that were more than 300 dollars (the phone was technically 200, but that was with a 2 year contract).

That being said I find your research interesting Alfndrate but what about things like tariff's and other taxes the government charges on goods coming into the country. I know for instance that despite all the "free trade agreements" Canada has a 15% tax is still slapped down on every box of toy soldiers that comes into the country. That your minimum wage is almost double mine is surely a factor as well but it's harder to directly relate that to price so I'm more curious about taxes and tariffs charged on shipments would be.

I could comment on taxes and tariffs better if I knew them. Looking at the Adobe example, there exists a thing in Australia called a Goods and Services Tax. Just a cursory googling of the term it appears to be a generic "sales tax" and similar to the UK's VAT (Value-Added Tax). But even still that's at most, 10%. But even still, taxes and Tariffs shouldn't push the price of a tactical space marine box to almost double what it's worth.

And as been said, minimum wage is not a good factor to determine disposable income. And I'm American, my country's minimum wage is lower than Canada's minimum wage . I make what the Australian minimum wage is at my job, and with the debt I have from going to college... I can't live on the money I make, and I make practically double the US minimum wage.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

The hilarious part, if us Aussies stopped buying - GW would notice a significant drop in the retail sale of their goods in North America

I've not bought a SINGLE product from GW in Australia since 1999. Not when the savings are up to or in some cases exceeding 55% off AUS RRP when buying from the USA.

In an interesting twist, the US appears to be catching up - Tau Riptide priced at $85 US RRP and $90 AUD RRP.

In short "Hey guys, we are having a hard time stopping those convicts from buying in the US, lets raise the US prices as well!". Yep, i'm still wondering if species of endangered monkeys are actually due to GW's recruitment methods.

 Morachi wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

The hilarious part, if us Aussies stopped buying - GW would notice a significant drop in the retail sale of their goods in North America

I've not bought a SINGLE product from GW in Australia since 1999. Not when the savings are up to or in some cases exceeding 55% off AUS RRP when buying from the USA.

In an interesting twist, the US appears to be catching up - Tau Riptide priced at $85 US RRP and $90 AUD RRP.

In short "Hey guys, we are having a hard time stopping those convicts from buying in the US, lets raise the US prices as well!". Yep, i'm still wondering if species of endangered monkeys are actually due to GW's recruitment methods.

Ever since the start of the year GW seem to have been trying to fix the pricing problem by bringing the US prices up to match ours. That plastic chaos warrior from Feb, $25 in both regions. For us thats a small mark up, for the US that's a big step up.

Gee, thanks Australia/New Zealand for our rising prices!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, thanks Australia/New Zealand for our rising prices!

There is a kernel of truth there. Bottom line is that people have continued to/are continuing to pay the prices that GW sets. What can that tell them? That they can raise prices elsewhere and people will continue to buy from them.

Fact is, Australasia has been something of a guinea pig for the rest of the world in that it gives GW some good data on just how elastic their prices can be.

Blame GW UK, they started it... something about sharing is caring, but it wasn't the kind of care i'd like them to share.

Just happy I have my display army, only keeping the one now and ditching the rest, I figure selling them to someone else gives them some enjoyment and denies additional new sales by GW.

I've only bought via trade sites for a while now, and the people there often have decent pricing, understanding (like the rest of us) that GW have priced themselves out of the market for all but a handful of folks who have more money than sense.

LOL, that's not our fault!

It's GW, "Oh less people are buying our product, so let's raise the prices to make up for that loss, on the people still buying" logic - if it could even be called logic. I get the feeling GW are more than happy to keep it in country UK/Europe and the rest of the world must pay for the privilege to own and play.

It really wouldn't surprise me if that is their long-term plan. Juice Australia, USA, Canada and other countries out of the market, then withdraw in the face of cheaper competitors whilst retaining stores and the partial hobby majority in Europe. A long and drawn out strategical withdrawal to juice up stock, CEO quits with a beautiful severance package for all his hardwork, GW begins toilet flushing stores citing loss of revenue, stock falls, but CEO doesn't care, he is gone with his golden handshake leaving the consumers, workers and shareholders up duff creek with just functional and selling stores in Europe. The ultimate ponzi scheme from within, artificial revenue.

 filbert wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, thanks Australia/New Zealand for our rising prices!

There is a kernel of truth there. Bottom line is that people have continued to/are continuing to pay the prices that GW sets. What can that tell them? That they can raise prices elsewhere and people will continue to buy from them.

Fact is, Australasia has been something of a guinea pig for the rest of the world in that it gives GW some good data on just how elastic their prices can be.

I seriously doubt it is anything as elaborate as that, I think we were just getting the short end of the stick but now GW are running out of stick so now everyone else does too.

Sales down here have been steadily dropping by about 10% for several years now, not even GW are dumb enough to look at that and go 'yea, people are still paying those prices, lets implement this system everywhere'.
All the crap they have done since the Hobbit release feels much more like a last ditch effort to keep the company's stock up for a few more years before it crashes than it does some master plan to make people pay more.

Pretty damn sure I put in the post that "yes, you can get it off ebay but timmy doesn't know that". Anyone in Australia who is savvy enough to know where to get discount stuff, is buying from overseas, and so their part in this discussion is pretty pointless.

@ "You only need the rules to play". Whilst that's a nice sentiment, it is again rather pointless. Yes, we can play with lego or green army men or cardboard cutouts. So what? People don't actually do that, they don't want to do that. While we're at it, you could download the rules or play Tomorrow's War.
Secondly... there aren't that many cheap alternatives in wargaming miniatures, especially for humanoid aliens. There are a few plastic manufacturers of human miniatures to substitute for IG or marines, but little in the way of aliens and even less in the way of vehicles. If we're going to say we could play with those, we may as well also play Tau using Space Marine rules for cheaper.

@ Other ways to get the rules: while we're talking about not paying for things, we could also steal someone else's army....

@Hobby starter set. It is possible to get other supplies, but other brand paints (Vallejo, P3) aren't actually much cheaper around here; GW brushes are pretty good quality for the price; and clippers, glue etc because you need them and that is what will get sold as 'essential' to starting the army. You could maybe save $30 if you went to a hardware store for the other stuff, but to get 10 starter colours its going to be $50 or so no matter what you do.


In short: yes, you can cut costs in a myriad of ways if you want. I haven't bough a full-priced GW set in over five years. That wasn't the point of my post. It was simply to provide a reference; what stuff costs in Australia.



Now, I can get on with the second part of my post.
Prices in Australia are.... prices in Australia. They are just as acceptable, or unacceptable, as they've always been. It is fairly established theory that prices for anything and everything are related to the overall amount of money in the system, so (in general) prices for stuff in Australia are higher than in the UK, US, Thailand, wherever. Minimum wage doesn't really have anything to do with it, except as a comparison point to show how much more Australians earn - very very few people are buying niche luxury toys like GW minis on minimum wage.

The thing here is that Australians are acclimatised to paying X amount for Y product. The price war determined a number of years ago, and people have been paying it. They're ok with paying it. It doesn't actually matter what the price is overseas or in the next town over: the price is the price, and if you thought you were getting value for money yesterday and nothing changes in your local area, then you are still getting value for money tomorrow no matter what happens to the price in the next state.

We see this with products which aren't easily transferable to other areas. Labour; entertainment and dining out; quickly perishable goods; rental prices. You can't very well rent a house a thousand miles away from your work just because it is cheaper. It doesn't matter to us what people in London pay for coffee if we live in Sydney.

However, we then add in the internet and globalization. Suddenly, many goods are transferable between places. How do we resolve this? If I was happy to pay $10 for an item today, and I'm in exactly the same situation tomorrow, why shouldn't I be happy to pay $10 for it? Yet I can get it cheaper... consumer surplus! Yay! Great for the consumer, but not for the business selling in Australia. See, they've been making presumably similar margins to their overseas competition: they pay $500 rent, $200 in wages and bring in $1000 revenue for $300 profit. But in order to compete with the people selling online, you have to compete with them on price but you are unable to compete with them on your non-transferable expenses (revenue, wages). You slash prices in half to match your competition, but don't bring in significantly more customers because now you're only competitive, not cheap. So you go broke. Damn.

This doesn't happen with all products. Restaurants aren't anywhere near as affected by internet retailers as clothing stores are, because restaurants sell non-transferable products. As above, some things you just can't sell over the internet; hot food, labour, property. The best things to sell over the internet are small; easily posted, light, non-perishable, non-regional. It needs to be mass-produced so you know exactly what you are getting It needs to arrive quickly (most people won't wait 6 months in order to save $5) but at the same time it can't be for urgent purchases you need today. It needs to be for items that are relatively pricey, and where the savings including shipping are a considerable percentage of that: you won't buy a pack of post-its overseas even if you save 75%, and you won't buy a TV overseas if you only save $10 after shipping. Items that fit this category include books, clothes, electronics, cosmetics... and Warhammer. They're fairly well (badly) placed to be hurt by regional pricing.
So, in order to not suffer, GW has only a few real options:
1) To keep their products the same price, and make their products unattainable outside of their intended regions
2) To considerably increase costs in Australia, so that those people unwilling or without knowledge to purchase on the internet have no choice but to pay the high price (or quit)
3) Substantially lower their prices in Australia and hope they can gain enough new customers with the lowered prices to offset the massive loss in revenue.
4) Pull out of Australia retail entirely.

#3 isn't really viable for them. They're part of a niche market, competing against lego and videogames and being 'cool'. For a 30% drop in prices, they would need to sell more than *double* the amount they currently do to maintain the same margin, which is quite unlikely especially given evidence of relatively few people leaving as price increases.
So they went with #1 and #2. Smart choices? Maybe not. But they don't really have many to choose from.


It is VERY important to note that GW isn't the only company doing this. Many companies have regional websites which actively prevent you from ordering to Australia if you use Australian payment systems or addresses. I remember a sports clothes company (Adidas?) was selling jerseys for the New Zealand rugby team for twice the price in New Zealand as they did in America, and they were quite unapologetic about it. Some companies (Apple) have enough turnover that they can effectively sell in Australia for prices that are very competitive with overseas prices - especially when companies like HP go the GW route of price hikes and embargoes, making Apple look like an even better deal. Some just eat the losses; some increase their in-store service to make something really special. Some close down (Borders books). Even in Wargaming they're not the only ones: Privateer Press is a fair bit more expensive here, and the price hikes Fantasy Flight puts on Dust Warfare stuff makes GW prices look good!

Its a changing retail environment that we live in. Online shopping is finally becoming mainstream and acceptable. And currencies fluctuate all the time. If the Aussie dollar should happen to fall below the US in the next 5 years as is expected, that will significantly change the dynamic of when it is appropriate to buy from overseas. Should GW pull out if they could be back in business by then?

I guess the only thing you should do is that trite phrase: vote with your wallet. Behave like a rational consumer and not a brainwashed fanboy. If you like GW stuff, get it off the internet wherever you can: GW can't shut down companies who operate through distributors or eBay. If you're annoyed at GW, try a different game. Nothing will change unless the money tells GW to.

Myself, I'm getting the bare minimum of Tau stuff bought through a US online store and brought back to Australia by family who are visiting the US, while I sit at home and paint through my backlog of Tau, Trollbloods, Blutkreuz, and Britannia armies.


// end rant. phew....


Edit:
@ Taxes. GW products sold in Australia will be subject to, I believe, 10% GST and 5% import tax on toys... which put together is still less than the VAT.
@ Minimum wage: Sorry, USA. Your minimum wage is ridiculously low. It seems amazingly pointless to me to have a minimum wage that is not a living wage: it would be far better IMO to have less people employed but self-sustaining, than slightly more people employed but all still below the poverty line. But that's another discussion.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

This. Also once GW realizes Australia is closer tp chinese recasters they will rethink their BS policies.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

This. Also once GW realizes Australia is closer tp chinese recasters they will rethink their BS policies.

Oh they know about the Chinese recasters, they've tried MANY times to shut them down unsuccessfully. They have them and 3D printers to contend with now... good luck undoing all the bad will they've thrown around the past three years... which has been ramping up like mad in that period.

Trasvi wrote:
Pretty damn sure I put in the post that "yes, you can get it off ebay but timmy doesn't know that". Anyone in Australia who is savvy enough to know where to get discount stuff, is buying from overseas, and so their part in this discussion is pretty pointless.

@ "You only need the rules to play". Whilst that's a nice sentiment, it is again rather pointless. Yes, we can play with lego or green army men or cardboard cutouts. So what? People don't actually do that, they don't want to do that. While we're at it, you could download the rules or play Tomorrow's War.
Secondly... there aren't that many cheap alternatives in wargaming miniatures, especially for humanoid aliens. There are a few plastic manufacturers of human miniatures to substitute for IG or marines, but little in the way of aliens and even less in the way of vehicles. If we're going to say we could play with those, we may as well also play Tau using Space Marine rules for cheaper.

@ Other ways to get the rules: while we're talking about not paying for things, we could also steal someone else's army....

@Hobby starter set. It is possible to get other supplies, but other brand paints (Vallejo, P3) aren't actually much cheaper around here; GW brushes are pretty good quality for the price; and clippers, glue etc because you need them and that is what will get sold as 'essential' to starting the army. You could maybe save $30 if you went to a hardware store for the other stuff, but to get 10 starter colours its going to be $50 or so no matter what you do.


In short: yes, you can cut costs in a myriad of ways if you want. I haven't bough a full-priced GW set in over five years. That wasn't the point of my post. It was simply to provide a reference; what stuff costs in Australia.



Now, I can get on with the second part of my post.
Prices in Australia are.... prices in Australia. They are just as acceptable, or unacceptable, as they've always been. It is fairly established theory that prices for anything and everything are related to the overall amount of money in the system, so (in general) prices for stuff in Australia are higher than in the UK, US, Thailand, wherever. Minimum wage doesn't really have anything to do with it, except as a comparison point to show how much more Australians earn - very very few people are buying niche luxury toys like GW minis on minimum wage.

The thing here is that Australians are acclimatised to paying X amount for Y product. The price war determined a number of years ago, and people have been paying it. They're ok with paying it. It doesn't actually matter what the price is overseas or in the next town over: the price is the price, and if you thought you were getting value for money yesterday and nothing changes in your local area, then you are still getting value for money tomorrow no matter what happens to the price in the next state.

We see this with products which aren't easily transferable to other areas. Labour; entertainment and dining out; quickly perishable goods; rental prices. You can't very well rent a house a thousand miles away from your work just because it is cheaper. It doesn't matter to us what people in London pay for coffee if we live in Sydney.

However, we then add in the internet and globalization. Suddenly, many goods are transferable between places. How do we resolve this? If I was happy to pay $10 for an item today, and I'm in exactly the same situation tomorrow, why shouldn't I be happy to pay $10 for it? Yet I can get it cheaper... consumer surplus! Yay! Great for the consumer, but not for the business selling in Australia. See, they've been making presumably similar margins to their overseas competition: they pay $500 rent, $200 in wages and bring in $1000 revenue for $300 profit. But in order to compete with the people selling online, you have to compete with them on price but you are unable to compete with them on your non-transferable expenses (revenue, wages). You slash prices in half to match your competition, but don't bring in significantly more customers because now you're only competitive, not cheap. So you go broke. Damn.

This doesn't happen with all products. Restaurants aren't anywhere near as affected by internet retailers as clothing stores are, because restaurants sell non-transferable products. As above, some things you just can't sell over the internet; hot food, labour, property. The best things to sell over the internet are small; easily posted, light, non-perishable, non-regional. It needs to be mass-produced so you know exactly what you are getting It needs to arrive quickly (most people won't wait 6 months in order to save $5) but at the same time it can't be for urgent purchases you need today. It needs to be for items that are relatively pricey, and where the savings including shipping are a considerable percentage of that: you won't buy a pack of post-its overseas even if you save 75%, and you won't buy a TV overseas if you only save $10 after shipping. Items that fit this category include books, clothes, electronics, cosmetics... and Warhammer. They're fairly well (badly) placed to be hurt by regional pricing.
So, in order to not suffer, GW has only a few real options:
1) To keep their products the same price, and make their products unattainable outside of their intended regions
2) To considerably increase costs in Australia, so that those people unwilling or without knowledge to purchase on the internet have no choice but to pay the high price (or quit)
3) Substantially lower their prices in Australia and hope they can gain enough new customers with the lowered prices to offset the massive loss in revenue.
4) Pull out of Australia retail entirely.

#3 isn't really viable for them. They're part of a niche market, competing against lego and videogames and being 'cool'. For a 30% drop in prices, they would need to sell more than *double* the amount they currently do to maintain the same margin, which is quite unlikely especially given evidence of relatively few people leaving as price increases.
So they went with #1 and #2. Smart choices? Maybe not. But they don't really have many to choose from.


It is VERY important to note that GW isn't the only company doing this. Many companies have regional websites which actively prevent you from ordering to Australia if you use Australian payment systems or addresses. I remember a sports clothes company (Adidas?) was selling jerseys for the New Zealand rugby team for twice the price in New Zealand as they did in America, and they were quite unapologetic about it. Some companies (Apple) have enough turnover that they can effectively sell in Australia for prices that are very competitive with overseas prices - especially when companies like HP go the GW route of price hikes and embargoes, making Apple look like an even better deal. Some just eat the losses; some increase their in-store service to make something really special. Some close down (Borders books). Even in Wargaming they're not the only ones: Privateer Press is a fair bit more expensive here, and the price hikes Fantasy Flight puts on Dust Warfare stuff makes GW prices look good!

Its a changing retail environment that we live in. Online shopping is finally becoming mainstream and acceptable. And currencies fluctuate all the time. If the Aussie dollar should happen to fall below the US in the next 5 years as is expected, that will significantly change the dynamic of when it is appropriate to buy from overseas. Should GW pull out if they could be back in business by then?

I guess the only thing you should do is that trite phrase: vote with your wallet. Behave like a rational consumer and not a brainwashed fanboy. If you like GW stuff, get it off the internet wherever you can: GW can't shut down companies who operate through distributors or eBay. If you're annoyed at GW, try a different game. Nothing will change unless the money tells GW to.

Myself, I'm getting the bare minimum of Tau stuff bought through a US online store and brought back to Australia by family who are visiting the US, while I sit at home and paint through my backlog of Tau, Trollbloods, Blutkreuz, and Britannia armies.


// end rant. phew....


Edit:
@ Taxes. GW products sold in Australia will be subject to, I believe, 10% GST and 5% import tax on toys... which put together is still less than the VAT.
@ Minimum wage: Sorry, USA. Your minimum wage is ridiculously low. It seems amazingly pointless to me to have a minimum wage that is not a living wage: it would be far better IMO to have less people employed but self-sustaining, than slightly more people employed but all still below the poverty line. But that's another discussion.

But GW don't have to rent the shop, or the fittings, that is all the operators responsibility. All they do is sell stock to them, initially it's why my confusion comes about to what GW really is in Australia. It seems more like a franchise to me. Ultimately Australia is just profit to GW, even including taxes and whatever else, there is still a huge amount of % remaining that is simply rip-off gravy to them because what other options do we have now they have eliminated all other possible online methods of obtaining warhammer for cheaper. I bet come mid year prices on Australian units will rise 5-10%.

Minimum wage is crap in USA, but you forget that is why there is practically a mandatory tipping system over there. In Australia tipping does not exist, and people on minimum wage don't live off the tips. They live off of 17.50 minimum per hour. Slightly less I believe if they are considered "disabled" - from memory that came up to $16 from $12 a while ago - but take that figure with salt.

Regardless, putting all of that aside, manufacturing, taxes, shipping is all basically the same costing to send to Australia as it is USA and Canada based off our own investigations as a consumer. That doesn't include business shipping bulk discounts, etc. There is no justification for the massive percentage difference, and if you want more proof just look at GW Head Office who have not said a single word as to why there is such a discrepancy. Any PR spiel they came out with won't hold up gumption, so if there is no truth or believable BS to say, they say nothing at all.

Ugh this is making me angry and doubting whether to even get into the hobby now.

 Banicks wrote:
But GW don't have to rent the shop, or the fittings, that is all the operators responsibility. All they do is sell stock to them, initially it's why my confusion comes about to what GW really is in Australia. It seems more like a franchise to me. Ultimately Australia is just profit to GW, even including taxes and whatever else, there is still a huge amount of % remaining that is simply rip-off gravy to them because what other options do we have now they have eliminated all other possible online methods of obtaining warhammer for cheaper. I bet come mid year prices on Australian units will rise 5-10%.

Minimum wage is crap in USA, but you forget that is why there is practically a mandatory tipping system over there. In Australia tipping does not exist, and people on minimum wage don't live off the tips. They live off of 17.50 minimum per hour. Slightly less I believe if they are considered "disabled" - from memory that came up to $16 from $12 a while ago - but take that figure with salt.

Regardless, putting all of that aside, manufacturing, taxes, shipping is all basically the same costing to send to Australia as it is USA and Canada based off our own investigations as a consumer. That doesn't include business shipping bulk discounts, etc. There is no justification for the massive percentage difference, and if you want more proof just look at GW Head Office who have not said a single word as to why there is such a discrepancy. Any PR spiel they came out with won't hold up gumption, so if there is no truth or believable BS to say, they say nothing at all..

GW stores are not franchises. They are run by GW, and GW pays for the rent, fittings and wages. They still need to 'buy' the stock from themselves.
GW is not just profit to Australia - they've made a loss the last few reports, and when they posted over the last 3-4 years they haven't been large.
The justification for the high prices is simply that we will pay them. If we don't pay them, GW will either lower the prices or shut its doors. It is really that simple. They put spin on it because people don't like to hear 'we charge what you will pay', but its the truth.

Trasvi wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
But GW don't have to rent the shop, or the fittings, that is all the operators responsibility. All they do is sell stock to them, initially it's why my confusion comes about to what GW really is in Australia. It seems more like a franchise to me. Ultimately Australia is just profit to GW, even including taxes and whatever else, there is still a huge amount of % remaining that is simply rip-off gravy to them because what other options do we have now they have eliminated all other possible online methods of obtaining warhammer for cheaper. I bet come mid year prices on Australian units will rise 5-10%.

Minimum wage is crap in USA, but you forget that is why there is practically a mandatory tipping system over there. In Australia tipping does not exist, and people on minimum wage don't live off the tips. They live off of 17.50 minimum per hour. Slightly less I believe if they are considered "disabled" - from memory that came up to $16 from $12 a while ago - but take that figure with salt.

Regardless, putting all of that aside, manufacturing, taxes, shipping is all basically the same costing to send to Australia as it is USA and Canada based off our own investigations as a consumer. That doesn't include business shipping bulk discounts, etc. There is no justification for the massive percentage difference, and if you want more proof just look at GW Head Office who have not said a single word as to why there is such a discrepancy. Any PR spiel they came out with won't hold up gumption, so if there is no truth or believable BS to say, they say nothing at all..

GW stores are not franchises. They are run by GW, and GW pays for the rent, fittings and wages. They still need to 'buy' the stock from themselves.
GW is not just profit to Australia - they've made a loss the last few reports, and when they posted over the last 3-4 years they haven't been large.
The justification for the high prices is simply that we will pay them. If we don't pay them, GW will either lower the prices or shut its doors. It is really that simple. They put spin on it because people don't like to hear 'we charge what you will pay', but its the truth.

Spoiler:

RE: minimum wage. Tipping is only 'mandatory' for service jobs like waiting tables; people at Walmart etc work minimum wage for no tips. Wait staff commonly earn below minimum wage and make up the difference (and then some) in tips, but the thing they don't tell you often is that if you make below minimum wage including tips, your employer needs to make up the difference.

As the property costs and wages are not an issue if the business is an independent stockist, surely the answer, if the costs are indeed the issue, is to charge a lower wholesale cost to allow a more sensible rrp and withdraw their own retail ops from Oz?

Quite possibly. That applies all over the world, not just Australia. With a bit of back-calculation from their financials you can already see that indie stockists make the more money than their own stores.

There are multiple problems with that though, primarily that prospective buyers are introduced to multiple other wargames rather than just GW. It's hard to sell Timmy a $500 bare-bones Warhammer starter bundle when a bare-bones Hordes starter bundle runs only $150.
The other part is that most indie stockists (here, at least) tend to be quite out of the way. The main GW store in my city is in the busiest mall in the state. That is a ton of opportunity for new people to walk past and buy, without knowing the cost of alternative games.

What, you mean they'd have to concentrate on making a product that stood on its own two feet in the marketplace and would have to combine nice models with reasonable prices and a tight rule set that people actually actively wanted to play alongside or above other systems?

But that would be haaaard! *pouty orkmoticon*

There's a little bit a logic fail though as a large part of the reason prices are high is GW sells to retailers at a wholesale price that is higher than the rest of the world. If it had to do with things like wages and rent and running costs being higher, then GW should be selling to retailers at a price where the retailers can attempt to compete internationally given whatever their running costs might be (given people would buy locally if the difference were small and attributable to higher store running costs instead of simply being absurdly high).


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Trasvi wrote:
However, we then add in the internet and globalization. Suddenly, many goods are transferable between places. How do we resolve this? If I was happy to pay $10 for an item today, and I'm in exactly the same situation tomorrow, why shouldn't I be happy to pay $10 for it? Yet I can get it cheaper... consumer surplus! Yay! Great for the consumer, but not for the business selling in Australia.

I wanted to comment on this point as well. GW prices have still been rising in Oz, it's not like what you could get for $10 yesterday you get for $10 today. You go in to a store and see a box of Hormagaunts for $48AUD and think "crap, couldn't I buy that for $42 the other day?", which then drives you to international sales. Back in the day when GW had a bitz store I'd occasionally buy from the UK and shipping to Oz, and it was cheaper than buying in Oz, but it wasn't worth my while doing it on every single purchase, but with all the price increases, now it is.

I might agree with your points if GW were supplying stores at internationally competitive prices and thus allowing the stores themselves to compete internationally instead of ripping off the stores and wondering why people are more inclined to buy internationally despite shipping and wait times.

Exactly. I'm up for a trip to UK soon, and at this rate I think I might just wait, and buy my CSM fill over there in a few months. I know that's extreme and wouldn't be the solution for anyone, it just happens I'm heading over.

That said, I still think GW are taking a risk doing this. Yes their online store and in-store may get slightly more revenue and traffic from people who have no alternative now, but this may also have the effect that players are completely turned away or just never get into it. There was a reason in the first place that people go, GW sell it for X, that's alot, oh Indie sells it for Y - you have my money.

It also shows that if the indie can do a discount, why is GW so hesitant to show love to it it's base. Money sure, but I don't think I've heard as much negative PR about something this much as GW in a long time. PR is everything in the long run (I mean look at me, just starting and already thinking about chucking it in if GW pull dirties like forced upgrades per edition and juicing percentages), it might not have mattered in the past, but as MWG said, things are changing and they need to begin adapting or falter into decline and downsizing.

Didn't GW exclude Australia from it's annual price rise last year?
What do you think the chances are that Australia will escape again this year..?

Just thinking, because we all know that GW will never, ever lower prices: they believe the product has a value and that to lower the price would devalue it and make it seem as if they don't have confidence in it's value.
Maybe they'll let autralia sit out a few years of price rises until they fit in more with the rest of the world..?

Of course prices will never match exactly because they rarely do with any company across the world- exchange rates and products being price for different standards of living will always happen.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's a little bit a logic fail though as a large part of the reason prices are high is GW sells to retailers at a wholesale price that is higher than the rest of the world. If it had to do with things like wages and rent and running costs being higher, then GW should be selling to retailers at a price where the retailers can attempt to compete internationally given whatever their running costs might be (given people would buy locally if the difference were small and attributable to higher store running costs instead of simply being absurdly high).

The wholesale price to independents is high because GW needs to compete in Australia against their stockists.
If GW needs to sell an item for $100 retail in their own stores to stay afloat, they need to sell it to independents at $55 so that they don't get drastically undercut. If they independent could buy for UK wholesale price (lets say that converts to $25) they could sell the product for $70 and still make the same margin.
The other side is again, retailers are used to paying $55 for that product. $55 is a fair price (in the absence of the internet).

Trasvi wrote:
However, we then add in the internet and globalization. Suddenly, many goods are transferable between places. How do we resolve this? If I was happy to pay $10 for an item today, and I'm in exactly the same situation tomorrow, why shouldn't I be happy to pay $10 for it? Yet I can get it cheaper... consumer surplus! Yay! Great for the consumer, but not for the business selling in Australia.

I wanted to comment on this point as well. GW prices have still been rising in Oz, it's not like what you could get for $10 yesterday you get for $10 today. You go in to a store and see a box of Hormagaunts for $48AUD and think "crap, couldn't I buy that for $42 the other day?", which then drives you to international sales. Back in the day when GW had a bitz store I'd occasionally buy from the UK and shipping to Oz, and it was cheaper than buying in Oz, but it wasn't worth my while doing it on every single purchase, but with all the price increases, now it is.

Absolutely true. If you thought $42 was a fair price yesterday, it is entirely likely you would think $48 was not a fair price today, and that would drive you to look elsewhere or stop purchasing; and the amount of the discount would affect how much difficulty you were willing to put up with to get it. I still buy paints (Vallejo) in stores, because even though I might save $1.50 a bottle ordering from overseas I would have to wait 3 weeks and I need the paint now. Some of the Tau releases I will be buying from discounters in Australia rather than the US, because the difference is only $5 on a $90 model which is easily eaten up in shipping costs. The point was, if the price doesn't change, that should mean your perception of fairness of price doesn't change; you might go looking for other places which offer you more value (consumer surplus) but the maximum price point at which you quit buying won't change if a newer cheaper seller becomes available.

* This is assuming about perfectly rational consumers, which of course don't exist. Real people are likely to stop buying simply out of protest at price disparities; they might buy locally to 'support the flgs', or they might never stop buying because the incremental cost of continuing to play isn't as much as the buy-in cost of another game. There is also the factors of networked goods: GW stuff is the leader of the market because it is the leader of the market. Few other games have the ability of GWs to be picked up and played nearly anywhere around the world, and so GW games are worth more than an identical product for a different game.

Trasvi...your comments and replies are sensible and well explained, I only wish I had the expertise to say what you said as eloquently as you did. I understand the general concepts of why GW is making the choices they are and know enough that it's the smart business move for them but I clearly do not have your level of understanding and I commend you for an excellent set of posts explaining why prices are higher in Australia.

Online discounters can give discounts because they cut into their own profit margin to do it. On top of that they avoid they are able to avoid plenty of the overhead costs. Maelstrom games is a GREAT example of what happens to these webstores if you do it wrong. Basically every sale puts you deeper into debt and you need more buyers to fill orders, in other words....Maelstrom games was essentially a ponzi scheme. As Trasvi said, GW's independent stockists very well make them more money than the corporate stores...so why should GW allow 100 or so online discounters threaten the business of thousands of other independents with no online presence? Why should GW leave every Australian independent out to dry for a sake of a few online retailers in the US or Europe? GW made the right call as far as business decisions go, it's not one everyone's going to like obviously but at the end of the day it protects the bottom line...and the bottom line is what keeps the hobby going. Privateer press sure as hell wouldn't sell you models at a loss or at an unsustainably low price, why would GW be any different?

To others though....you can't just dismiss labor costs and bulk shipping as having no effect on price. A ship with a couple containers full of mini's going from England to the East coast of North America is going to be significantly cheaper than freight going through the Suez Canal or around Cape horn. It's not like GW can supply an entire continent entirely through air freight.

Actually, far from being a ponzi scheme, MG appears to have gone down in part because the ROW embargo cut a significant percentage of their core business almost overnight, in part because they had over invested in what eventually became Mierce Miniatures without making provision for a disaster like the embargo and in part because they didn't take strong e ough action soon enough (such as redundancies)

Internet stores run at a lower margin simply because they can run with lower overheads and reach a massive consumer base so can trade in volume, nothing more complicated than that.

So, in short, GW are at least partly responsible for their demise, just like they are partly responsible for Miniwargaming and no doubt a number of lower profile stores, through actions such as those discussed in this thread.

Orktavius 517898 5463885 wrote:
To others though....you can't just dismiss labor costs and bulk shipping as having no effect on price. A ship with a couple containers full of mini's going from England to the East coast of North America is going to be significantly cheaper than freight going through the Suez Canal or around Cape horn. It's not like GW can supply an entire continent entirely through air freight.

Not entirely, no, but have you seen how many containers those ships carry? Or the capacity of each of those containers? If you average the shipping cost per unit of stock transported, it is going to be a very small amount of the RRP

Exactly. As I said already, shipping doesn't more than double the cost of items.


And on another note, Maelstrom wasn't just an internet store with no B&M presence. They had a massive store, with over 100 tables and a food annex!

Trasvi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
There's a little bit a logic fail though as a large part of the reason prices are high is GW sells to retailers at a wholesale price that is higher than the rest of the world. If it had to do with things like wages and rent and running costs being higher, then GW should be selling to retailers at a price where the retailers can attempt to compete internationally given whatever their running costs might be (given people would buy locally if the difference were small and attributable to higher store running costs instead of simply being absurdly high).

The wholesale price to independents is high because GW needs to compete in Australia against their stockists.
If GW needs to sell an item for $100 retail in their own stores to stay afloat, they need to sell it to independents at $55 so that they don't get drastically undercut. If they independent could buy for UK wholesale price (lets say that converts to $25) they could sell the product for $70 and still make the same margin.
The other side is again, retailers are used to paying $55 for that product. $55 is a fair price (in the absence of the internet).

Again, we have a logic fail here.

GW stores don't have to pay wholesale prices to themselves, the FLGS do. If an FLGS could be internationally competitive if only they were charged an international wholesale price, then so could GW, because all the prices involved in running the shop itself exist both for the FLGS and the GW store, but the GW store (in Australia) get their product at far lower prices.

I'm gonna make up some numbers to illustrate (the proportions I'm sure are off, but the principle applies).

Lets say it costs GW $20 to produce and distribute product to stores (not including the costs of running the retail store themselves). So they wholesale it to a US store for $40, and stick an RRP of $60 on it.

So in the US...
FLGS sells product for $60, GW makes $20 but has no running costs, FLGS makes $20 minus running costs.

GW store sells product for $60, GW makes $40 minus running costs.

Now we come to Australia where product is 50% more expensive. So GW still only costs $20 to produce and distribute product, maybe a couple of bucks extra for shipping and taxes, lets call it $25. They sell to the store at a wholesale of $60 with an RRP sticker of $90.

FLGS sells product for $90, GW makes $35 and has no running costs, FLGS makes $30 minus running costs, more than the US store but has to cover higher running costs.

GW store also sells product for $90, GW makes $65 minus running costs, despite having much the same running costs as the FLGS!

This is where the logic fail comes in with your argument. By GW charging significantly higher wholesale in Oz, the FLGS has a double kick in the balls, not only aren't they getting stock at a competitive price, they have to run a store on significantly less profit per product than a GW store and have higher running costs than international stores.

So not only is GW kicking gamers in the teeth, they're kicking FLGS's in the balls too.

The only reason why they are raising prices is to milk more from the market, not because they need to do it to be competitive or to make money. And as you yourself said a few posts ago, GW growth in Oz is somewhere between stagnant and low where the market (the hobby in general) is increasing, so they're pushing the limit of what they can do which only proves to piss off customers and make things worse. Instead of trying to offer a competitive product at a competitive price, they are trying to get their hands in the pockets of both FLGS's and customers while saying "oh no, don't look over there and see how much we're screwing you, focus on the pretty lights over here".

A business is a business and I accept that. But I do not accept the business practices of screwing both retailers and consumers to make a quick buck and it does affect my purchases.

GW aren't the only ones doing it, yes, and as long as I can get product from overseas reasonably easy I won't care too much about it, if getting product overseas becomes impossible from GW trade agreements, they've lost me. The video game industry does the same thing, and I import video games too at the expense of local video game stores (and occasionally buy them locally when I don't want to wait). Tyre manufacturers do the same thing as well and are terrible and I have little to no respect for them because of it, because many international manufacturers have trade agreements with retailers to not ship tyres to Oz and interfere with their fleecing of Australian consumers and retailers.

Trasvi wrote:
Absolutely true. If you thought $42 was a fair price yesterday, it is entirely likely you would think $48 was not a fair price today, and that would drive you to look elsewhere or stop purchasing; and the amount of the discount would affect how much difficulty you were willing to put up with to get it. I still buy paints (Vallejo) in stores, because even though I might save $1.50 a bottle ordering from overseas I would have to wait 3 weeks and I need the paint now. Some of the Tau releases I will be buying from discounters in Australia rather than the US, because the difference is only $5 on a $90 model which is easily eaten up in shipping costs. The point was, if the price doesn't change, that should mean your perception of fairness of price doesn't change; you might go looking for other places which offer you more value (consumer surplus) but the maximum price point at which you quit buying won't change if a newer cheaper seller becomes available.

Yes, unfortunately the perception of fairness of price within the market even ignoring external factors is (IMO) falling as well as the international disparity is causing even more of a decrease in perception of fairness, ESPECIALLY when you hear that not only do consumers get an international disparity, retailers can't get products at prices that are competitive.

Personally, I don't support my FLGS by buying GW products because I know they are being screwed by GW and after lowering prices to be competitive don't have margins anywhere near what a GW store will have, so I'm not going to support my FLGS by paying a large amount of which the FLGS only makes a small amount and GW make a lion share.

I do, however, support my FLGS by buying paints and glues and tools, as typically such accessories have better margins for them (and I typically don't buy the GW branded ones) and also by buying traded products. My local FLGS trades miniatures and the owner has told me they make far more off that than actual brand new GW products (of which he has severely cut his distribution for over the years), so I'm happy to support him like that and get models a few bucks cheaper than buying them new anyway.

I'm not going to support my FLGS by buying a $90 product that can be gotten internationally for $60 and the lion share of the price difference goes to GW and not my FLGS anyway.

Orktavius wrote:
Online discounters can give discounts because they cut into their own profit margin to do it. On top of that they avoid they are able to avoid plenty of the overhead costs. Maelstrom games is a GREAT example of what happens to these webstores if you do it wrong.

It's amusing that you are still completely ignoring the fact that most of the larger internet discounters also have B&M stores.

It's even more amusing that you would do that in the same paragraph as you hold up Maelstrom Games as an example of an internet discounter... given that they had a massive B&M store.

It wasn't discounting that killed Maelstrom. It was having a very large chunk of their sales ripped out from under them by GW's anti-competitive policies. The GW that is 'protecting the LGS' killed that particular LGS.

...so why should GW allow 100 or so online discounters threaten the business of thousands of other independents with no online presence?

What's stopping those thousands of other independants from building an online presence? Aside from, of course, GW's refusal to allow them to do so...?

Why should GW leave every Australian independent out to dry for a sake of a few online retailers in the US or Europe?

Why indeed, when all they need to do to fix the problem is drop the wholesale price to a level where Oz retail prices can be adjusted to match overseas prices?

Rather than fostering ill will within their customer base by dictating to them who and where they are allowed to buy from, they could have just removed any desire to purchase from overseas in one stroke. instead of being cranky that they can no longer purchase from overseas at a fair price, Oz customers would have been happy that GW was obviously listening to their concerns, and that they can now support their local stores without feeling like they were being reamed. Oz sales go up, customer satisfaction goes up, LGSs remain in business, and everyone wins.

Instead, we have the current mess.

 insaniak wrote:

Why should GW leave every Australian independent out to dry for a sake of a few online retailers in the US or Europe?

Why indeed, when all they need to do to fix the problem is drop the wholesale price to a level where Oz retail prices can be adjust to match overseas prices?

What amazes me is some people actually think, we, the consumers, are doing the FLGS wrong by buying overseas or online when the reality is that GW are leaving retailers out in the cold by charging them higher wholesale and not allowing them to compete. GW aren't doing the FLGS in Australia any favours.

IMO it's quite simple, if GW charged retailers internationally competitive rates, Australian retailers may still not be able to compete dollar for dollar with international retailers due to higher running costs in Oz, but nor would they have to compete dollar for dollar. If they could get their products wholesale at a price that was competitive + a bit for international shipping and then sold them at a "slightly" higher price to cover their running costs, customers would have little to no desire to buy internationally.

People will be more inclined to support their local FLGS and also save themselves time shipping internationally if they would only save $20-30 on $200 worth of product, where as now you're more likely to save $70-90 on $200 worth of product, making not supporting the local store and having to wait weeks to get a product far more bearable.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Why should GW leave every Australian independent out to dry for a sake of a few online retailers in the US or Europe?

Why indeed, when all they need to do to fix the problem is drop the wholesale price to a level where Oz retail prices can be adjust to match overseas prices?

What amazes me is some people actually think, we, the consumers, are doing the FLGS wrong by buying overseas or online when the reality is that GW are leaving retailers out in the cold by charging them higher wholesale and not allowing them to compete. GW aren't doing the FLGS in Australia any favours.

GW aren't doing them favours, but when people start buying online, they won't stick to just GW products. The FLGS's will lose sales of any other gaming systems that can be had cheaper online, which is a lot of them.

GW doing something to help keep the sales in the stores is admirable - if that's what they were actually doing, rather than just trying to keep us paying their high prices.

I think the problem is nobody is taking economics into account when they look at the prices in one country or the other.

A Big Mac also costs almost twice as much in Australlia.

I don't agree with the GW prices but this is a small example of why we need a global economy. Globalism is the future.

When we all have one economy, it won't matter what country you are in; we will all pay the same.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I think the problem is nobody is taking economics into account when they look at the prices in one country or the other.

That's because anyone who isn't an economist doesn't care about economics.

I couldn't give a rat's jigglies why a business charges different prices in different stores. As a customer, I just care about getting the best deal... which is exactly how the system is supposed to work. I don't have a responsibility to support GW's chosen business model.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I think the problem is nobody is taking economics into account when they look at the prices in one country or the other.

I disagree, people are taking economics in to consideration. I know I am considering economics when I say I think GW are giving both FLGS's and customers the shaft, in fact I couldn't make that statement if I weren't considering the global and local economics.


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 insaniak wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I think the problem is nobody is taking economics into account when they look at the prices in one country or the other.

That's because anyone who isn't an economist doesn't care about economics.

I couldn't give a rat's jigglies why a business charges different prices in different stores. As a customer, I just care about getting the best deal... which is exactly how the system is supposed to work. I don't have a responsibility to support GW's chosen business model.

I feel people are taking economics in to account when discussing the topic and being disgusted at GW's business model.

Where people cease to take economics in to account is when they have resolved to make a purchase and then deciding how that purchase will be made.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I think the problem is nobody is taking economics into account when they look at the prices in one country or the other.

A Big Mac also costs almost twice as much in Australlia.

I don't agree with the GW prices but this is a small example of why we need a global economy. Globalism is the future.

When we all have one economy, it won't matter what country you are in; we will all pay the same.

And a Big Mac in Noumea was twice the price of an Australian big mac. And Brazil's minimum wage is 1/8th that of the US (or 1/4th... one of the two) yet they pay close to Aussie prices for their GW stuff. And neither of these things are at all relevant.

You cannot simplify this down to "Everything in Australia is more expensive!" because it isn't. It's about as accurate as the minimum wage fallacy.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I think the problem is nobody is taking economics into account when they look at the prices in one country or the other.

A Big Mac also costs almost twice as much in Australlia.

No, it doesn't. In the uk, it's about $4usd, here it's about $5usd (with some variability, as different stores have different rates), which fits into the 20-30% higher bracket most things do (understandable with higher costs for labour ect, in Australia). If GW kept to that sort of difference, there would be far far fewer complaints about them, and people would be far more willing to buy locally. GW marks up far far beyond that level, however.

As an actual economist, here's an actual source on the big mac index http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index

As of January 2013 according the The Economist's data, a Big Mac in Australia averaged $4.90 USD ($4.70 AUS), compared with $4.37 USD in the US. A ~ 12% increase.


So based on the Big Mac index, GW's prices are still flat out insane.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Again, we have a logic fail here.
GW stores don't have to pay wholesale prices to themselves, the FLGS do. If an FLGS could be internationally competitive if only they were charged an international wholesale price, then so could GW, because all the prices involved in running the shop itself exist both for the FLGS and the GW store, but the GW store (in Australia) get their product at far lower prices.

I'm writing something long and complicated as a response but confusing myself with numbers and don't want to post something that will instantly be derided.
The moral of the story is that: GW stores are profit machines after break even point, at a stronger-than-historical Australian dollar, as most of their costs are fixed in the nation of sale.
Letting independents in Australia use overseas wholesale rates potentially decreases the independent's cost's by a much larger amount than it decreases GW's costs: with the numbers I'm using, GW needs to sell 15% less to reach break even while the independent needs to sell 37% less. At the same time, keeping independents buying at a % of Australian retail potentially increases GW revenue through independents by up to 150% with currency changes.
So decreasing costs to independents lets them undercut GW stores quite significantly when GW is still 'paying off' their fixed costs.
However, once a GW store gets into significant profit, they can make a *LOT* of money very quickly with a strong Aussie dollar - primarily because their profit needs to reported in the UK, rather than Aus. The independent on the other hand falls behind quickly and has to make more Australian dollars to post the same profit figures.
At the moment, I suspect GW stores in Australia are making losses across the board: GW as a whole posted barely 500k GBP profit last statement and made a loss before that. They're before the break even point, which means that independents can still undercut them.

Essentially: GW can't treat independents better because the GW stores themselves aren't making a profit.
I'll post the actual numbers when I'm mostly sure they're not wrong.


Then there is the point I was trying to make before: The FLGS was previously paying $X for product. They obviously think that is a fair price. Why the hell would GW go discounting that to $X/2 for them? Sales aren't elastic enough for that to increase GW's revenue. If the FLGS was paying that price, that is what GW will continue to charge them, plain and simple.

I live in Melbourne, Australia. I regularly buy models from my FLGS (called Mind Games) because their prices are actually lower than the GW prices (both shops are within a 5 minute walk of each other). I only buy models from Mind Games BECAUSE they are cheaper, and I can get them IMMEDIATELY.

When I'm feeling patient, I buy models off eBay. I'd imagine the changed terms won't reduce eBay supply at all. Some of these people probably just buy retail in the US and then post to us. Also, I have a US post box, so I can always get GW to ship to that.

We Australians - as a whole - are doing very well, globally speaking. We have a lot more discretionary spending, meaning that some people (myself included) don't mind spending a bit extra every so often. If I want to have my model ready for the weekend game against my mates, I don't mind forking out extra.

My point is that I - and many other Australians - am willing to pay a price premium to get a model straight away. And if we're feeling patient, there is very little GW can do to stop people.

GW can do whatever they want. And people will continue to buy their products (I know that my friends and I will). It's not malicious, GW are just going about business. They don't owe us anything, nor are they being less generous than other companies. It's just that other hobby companies either don't have the infrastructure to price like GW does, or they feel that they are best served - commercially - by not price discriminating.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And a Big Mac in Noumea was twice the price of an Australian big mac. And Brazil's minimum wage is 1/8th that of the US (or 1/4th... one of the two) yet they pay close to Aussie prices for their GW stuff. And neither of these things are at all relevant.
You cannot simplify this down to "Everything in Australia is more expensive!" because it isn't. It's about as accurate as the minimum wage fallacy.

Anything imported in Brazil is expensive, including food. Not many people go to McDonalds when they're out and about - instead, go to a beans'n'rice buffet and pay $3 per kilo of food.
I posted before: the amount of money available in a system is very closely related to the prices of everything, which is why governments don't simply print money (anymore) (without good reason). Obviously prices aren't tied to minimum wage, but to say that money supply has *nothing* to do with any prices in a country is demonstrably wrong.

@DexKivuli: Willingness to wait is definitely a thing. I'll wait 2 weeks for the Tau codex to save nearly $50 on the sticker price; but I won't wait 2 weeks to save $1 on paint. Depends how badly you want it and how much your time is worth.
However, GW *IS* trying their best to stop you from doing this, and that's what this thread is about. Soon when we can't order from many US stockists, we have to start looking to eBay or less-discounted sellers who get their GW stuff though distributors rather than GW themselves.

regarding other companies: GW is in a position to dictate terms. If (eg) Spartan Games tried to tell my FLGS who they could and couldn't sell to, my store would just refuse to sell them at all, Spartan would be out of pocket but my FLGS would only lose 1% of revenue. When GW come along and try the same thing, they represent 50% of the store revenue and so can pretty much twist their arms to agreeing to anything [legal]. Most of the smaller players in the industry would have < 20 staff total, so they really don't have the time or money to dedicate to this kind of legal wrangling.

I just care about getting the best deal... which is exactly how the system is supposed to work. I don't have a responsibility to support GW's chosen business model.

Truth.

BTW insaniak, can I just say your conversions are awesome. I recognized them from ebay a whiles back.

Okay, resume hating on GW policies everyone.

Then there is the point I was trying to make before: The FLGS was previously paying $X for product. They obviously think that is a fair price. Why the hell would GW go discounting that to $X/2 for them? Sales aren't elastic enough for that to increase GW's revenue. If the FLGS was paying that price, that is what GW will continue to charge them, plain and

There are a while bunch of things wrong with that.

For one, many FLGSs didn't think that the prices were fair before. They just put up with them because they didn't really have a choice if they wanted to sell GWs games.

For two, any of them who may have felt that the prices were once fair are certainly not obligated to think so forever.

And for three, the FLGS thinking the price is fair is ultimately far less important than the customer thinking the price is fair. And the customer will go wherever they can currently get the best deal.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The solution is for Australian players to stop buying any GW products. A year off would do it. The results would be clearly visible in GW's accounts. As long as you keep buying the stuff at sky high prices, GW will sell it at sky high prices.

This is never going to happen because, we, as the savvy forum members we are, are a very small minority of wargamers. Most wargamers don't have a clue about what's happening and what GW are doing and will buy direct from GW because they think there's no alternative.

@insaniak, I'm trying to use 'fair price' in the economic sense, meaning that you won't buy the product if it's not at a fair price. Grumble and complain that it's too expensive, but if you buy it you obviously wanted it more than your money.
But you're right, it wasn't a well thought-out sentence.

Trasvi wrote:
Grumble and complain that it's too expensive, but if you buy it you obviously wanted it more than your money.

Sure. But if next time you go to buy that item you discover that some stores are selling it for a much lower price, is it surprising for you to be less happy with that previously 'fair' price?

It depends on how much you want it.
Think about the absolute maximum price you'd spend on an item. Would you buy a kit of plastic space marines for $50? $100? $200? $1000?
...


I'm just trying to point out *why* GW is acting the way they are, why they can't just drop prices in Australia overnight. I'm not taking their side... but it would be very bad for them in their current state to drastically reduce retail or wholesale prices.

Trasvi wrote:
It depends on how much you want it.
Think about the absolute maximum price you'd spend on an item. Would you buy a kit of plastic space marines for $50? $100? $200? $1000?
...

The maximum I would spend is irrelevant. When I go to buy it, I'm going to buy it from whoever will give me the best deal. That's not solely to do with price... I've paid more at times for the sake of getting my purchase quicker. But that's a choice that I have made as a consumer. Having a company tell me that I can only buy from shops that charge over a set amount because they want to charge certain customers more than others removes that choice.

I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore tbh. What you say is mostly correct - you're perfectly justified in trying to seek out the best deal you can. IMO it's probably in GW's best interest to let you do this, so that people who currently *are* at their maximum can continue in the hobby for a while longer: thats why other companies have sales and discount coupons in the first place.

GW can't discount the stock in their stores significantly - they won't see many extra sales, and they're not/barely breaking even as is.
On the other hand, an independent that is breaking even could significantly undercut GW if GW offered them US wholesale prices AND GW would lose revenue from them, a lose/lose for GW.

When you say GW is not/barely breaking even, are you suggesting they're losing money on sales?

Sure, GW stores lose money. They lose money here in the states too. GW should just chock it all up to a marketing expense and not worry about it, or close their stores. It looks like in many cases that they are choosing the latter.

 Lorizael wrote:
Didn't GW exclude Australia from it's annual price rise last year?
What do you think the chances are that Australia will escape again this year..?

Slim to none. There won't be the typical "here's a list of new prices for everything" like they've done before. Instead, the price changes are happening through the release schedule. Meaning, in January DA went up. This month Tau goes up. Next month... you get the picture.

It's easier, and causes much less blowback, to slip a price increase for a certain line as part of an army release than doing a full SKU update.

Trasvi wrote:
So decreasing costs to independents lets them undercut GW stores quite significantly when GW is still 'paying off' their fixed costs.

This doesn't make sense though, it doesn't let them undercut GW stores any more than they do in any other market. The wholesale price should be representative of the cost of getting the models to the store, with shipping and distribution channels the way they are, the increase for Oz relative to the rest of the world isn't that much (in my numbers I just randomly picked $5 on $20, or 25% more). Then the difference between wholesale price and the RRP should be representative of the actual costs involved in running a store, and should be similar for both a FLGS and a GW store since they are both running similar stores in the same country.

That fact doesn't magically change because it's Australia instead of the US or the UK, the difference between wholesale and RRP should be somewhat higher to cover higher running costs, and the wholesale itself should be *slightly* higher to cover higher distribution costs. I accept that, as I said in my post, I don't expect neither independent stores nor GW themselves to compete dollar for dollar with international stores and frankly they don't have to compete dollar for dollar... they just have to not be massively unbalanced like they are now.

I have no illusion about the fact that if I buy locally from a GW in Oz, the $50 more than I'm paying goes almost entirely in to the coffers of GW not the FLGS who is actually having to pay much higher running costs to sustain themselves.

At the moment, I suspect GW stores in Australia are making losses across the board: GW as a whole posted barely 500k GBP profit last statement and made a loss before that. They're before the break even point, which means that independents can still undercut them.

If they aren't turning a profit in Australia it's their own fault for trying to over expand or poor management. Australia is the smallest of their big markets, I accept that, but it's still one of their big markets, accounting for 9% of their revenue despite the fact it hasn't seen a lot of growth in the past few years (comparatively, North America is 29% of their total revenue).

If they have to charge FLGS's higher wholesale price, that again is a flaw in their own business model and doesn't make me feel any happier about it.

Essentially: GW can't treat independents better because the GW stores themselves aren't making a profit.

At a quick glance I couldn't see profit in Australia explicitly listed. But even if they aren't, why should that make me change my mind? Not making profits isn't just a symptom of "oh damn, we aren't charging these people enough money!", it's a symptom of poor management as much as anything else.

Then there is the point I was trying to make before: The FLGS was previously paying $X for product. They obviously think that is a fair price. Why the hell would GW go discounting that to $X/2 for them? Sales aren't elastic enough for that to increase GW's revenue. If the FLGS was paying that price, that is what GW will continue to charge them, plain and simple.

You do keep bringing up this point and I know where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree. They might have THOUGHT $X was a fair price, many years ago, but that doesn't mean the new price of $Y which = $X + price increases - competition from other companies +/- wider market factors +/- changes in exchange rate and whatever else has come up means that the perception of fairness of what is now $Y is the same perception of fairness of what was previously $X.

So many factors affect fair price perception beyond what you are talking about. Even just the fact that 15 years ago I could walk into an FLGS and see only GW stuff and a couple of board games in the "table top wargaming" section where as now I walk in and see GW stuff on a tiny shelf in the back with half a dozen other games surrounding them is a big hit on perceived value of a product.

I don't think anyone thinks GW should slash prices in half and expect to get 5 times the sales to maintain profit. But they're digging their own grave and the graves of their independent stockists and the graves of consumer sentiment by continuing down the road they have been. They don't even have to match international prices as I've been saying multiple times, and hell, maybe in a year or two they will have raised prices across the globe and across their entire range to match Australia, and lets see how well that works out for them, IMO GW customers aren't nearly as price insensitive as GW would like to believe.

I stand by the principle of "you catch more flies with honey" approach, and this WAS an approach GW used to have back in their prime anyway. You say GW can't slash prices and I don't think they should have to either, but back in the day when they had the largest growth, they DID have sales in Oz where you could typically save 33% and the stores were packed and the registers running constantly. Did they make as much revenue as they are making now? I have no idea, but IMO it's not a terrible business practice to make your customers happy instead of making your customers pissed off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is interesting to note, looking at the awesomely stupid "one click bundles" that are a good indicator of the cost of an entire army seeing as how they don't save you any money. Comparing the Tyranid one click bundle to the Tau one click bundle, the Tyranid one is 58% more expensive in Oz, the Tau one is only 32% more expensive in Oz.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
So decreasing costs to independents lets them undercut GW stores quite significantly when GW is still 'paying off' their fixed costs.

This doesn't make sense though, it doesn't let them undercut GW stores any more than they do in any other market. The wholesale price should be representative of the cost of getting the models to the store, with shipping and distribution channels the way they are, the increase for Oz relative to the rest of the world isn't that much (in my numbers I just randomly picked $5 on $20, or 25% more). Then the difference between wholesale price and the RRP should be representative of the actual costs involved in running a store, and should be similar for both a FLGS and a GW store since they are both running similar stores in the same country.

Wayland Games (before the embargo) could send me individual orders, direct to my house, with free shipping, for less than the GW wholesale cost to retailers here, and still make a profit.
Distribution costs aren't that high.
But, you are right: distribution costs for GW and FLGS should be effectively the same, if both acquired their boxes from the same source.


Lets say, at some exchange rate (year 2000 1 USD = 2 AUD) where all Australian prices are set at complete exchange parity to overseas; a product costs $100 AUD but $50 USD. It costs 12.5 USD/25AUD to make, and wholesales for 27.5 USD / 55 AUD. We'll imagine that GW kits are made in the US because it makes the numbers easier.
GW stores in Australia buy the product for $25 AUD. The FLGS buys for $55 AUD. They both have a steady customer base and are just breaking even.

Now the exchange rate changes, and 1 USD = 1 AUD (2009).
The GW store can now buy product for only 12.5 AUD. Their margins increase, but more importantly they become amazingly profitable; the amount they need to sell to become profitable decreases by ~15%, and every kit they sell above break even earns *double* the profit (in USD).
If GW doesn't change the wholesale amount to the FLGS, the FLGS just operates as usual (assuming that customers can't source their product from overseas). GW however now makes 55 AUD = 55 USD, - 12.5 USD = 42.5 USD profit on each sale to them, instead of the previous 55AUD = 27.5 USD, - 12.5 USD = 15 USD profit. GW makes 180% more from each wholesale sale.
If GW does change the wholesale amount, and the FLGS can purchase wholesale from the US, then their wholesale price drops to $27.5 AUD. Now, they could just keep the extra margin and make more profit: OR, they could decrease their prices by $27.5 AUD to make the same profit per transaction and stay at break-even.
Because GW was spending less on product, they save less on product when the exchange rate turns. They can only drop their prices by $12.5 AUD and still stay at the same level of profit in AUD. the FLGS now undercuts them by 20%!


This only works while GW is making low levels of sales. Because their concern about profit is back home in the US, they actually need to sell only half as much product as before because it is twice as profitable. Once GW gets into higher number of units sold, they could significantly decrease their sale price and still maintain the same level of profit on the company financials. They just don't appear to be at that level yet. The last time we heard about GWs distribution split, it was about half GW and half independent (some financials about 5 years ago, can't remember exactly). The independent side is practically all profit, so if GW AUS as a whole is hovering around break-even in Australia, that pretty much means their retail stores are making a loss, right?


Now, I'm not an economist or an accountant or even a business owner. Just a wargamer with a spreadsheet. So I may have done something completely wrong. And this is using a pretty massive example of doubling the exchange rate.
But it seems to me that a FLGS could significantly undercut GW stores if they were willing to not make extra profit on the discounted wholesale rates.

Then there is the point I was trying to make before: The FLGS was previously paying $X for product. They obviously think that is a fair price. Why the hell would GW go discounting that to $X/2 for them? Sales aren't elastic enough for that to increase GW's revenue. If the FLGS was paying that price, that is what GW will continue to charge them, plain and simple.

You do keep bringing up this point and I know where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree. They might have THOUGHT $X was a fair price, many years ago, but that doesn't mean the new price of $Y which = $X + price increases - competition from other companies +/- wider market factors +/- changes in exchange rate and whatever else has come up means that the perception of fairness of what is now $Y is the same perception of fairness of what was previously $X.

So many factors affect fair price perception beyond what you are talking about. Even just the fact that 15 years ago I could walk into an FLGS and see only GW stuff and a couple of board games in the "table top wargaming" section where as now I walk in and see GW stuff on a tiny shelf in the back with half a dozen other games surrounding them is a big hit on perceived value of a product.

Imagine GW actually succeeds in making it completely impossible to acquire their products from overseas. The government signs it into law that we can't purchase from anywhere other than Australian retailers. Then we won't have the ability to take advantage of the cheaper prices and our perception of fairness/value for money returns to its historical position; and in that situation, whining that US gets it for cheaper does you just as much good as whining that Broken Hill has cheaper rent than Bondi. This is what GW is trying to do (well, not getting it made into law (except they would accept that if offered ))
In this situation, the exchange rate factor just completely disappears. Obviously perception of price fairness will adjust due to greater competition from other companies, but this topic is really about the exchange rate factor.

Trasvi wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
So decreasing costs to independents lets them undercut GW stores quite significantly when GW is still 'paying off' their fixed costs.

This doesn't make sense though, it doesn't let them undercut GW stores any more than they do in any other market. The wholesale price should be representative of the cost of getting the models to the store, with shipping and distribution channels the way they are, the increase for Oz relative to the rest of the world isn't that much (in my numbers I just randomly picked $5 on $20, or 25% more). Then the difference between wholesale price and the RRP should be representative of the actual costs involved in running a store, and should be similar for both a FLGS and a GW store since they are both running similar stores in the same country.

Wayland Games (before the embargo) could send me individual orders, direct to my house, with free shipping, for less than the GW wholesale cost to retailers here, and still make a profit.
Distribution costs aren't that high.
But, you are right: distribution costs for GW and FLGS should be effectively the same, if both acquired their boxes from the same source.


Lets say, at some exchange rate (year 2000 1 USD = 2 AUD) where all Australian prices are set at complete exchange parity to overseas; a product costs $100 AUD but $50 USD. It costs 12.5 USD/25AUD to make, and wholesales for 27.5 USD / 55 AUD. We'll imagine that GW kits are made in the US because it makes the numbers easier.
GW stores in Australia buy the product for $25 AUD. The FLGS buys for $55 AUD. They both have a steady customer base and are just breaking even.

Now the exchange rate changes, and 1 USD = 1 AUD (2009).
The GW store can now buy product for only 12.5 AUD. Their margins increase, but more importantly they become amazingly profitable; the amount they need to sell to become profitable decreases by ~15%, and every kit they sell above break even earns *double* the profit (in USD).
If GW doesn't change the wholesale amount to the FLGS, the FLGS just operates as usual (assuming that customers can't source their product from overseas). GW however now makes 55 AUD = 55 USD, - 12.5 USD = 42.5 USD profit on each sale to them, instead of the previous 55AUD = 27.5 USD, - 12.5 USD = 15 USD profit. GW makes 180% more from each wholesale sale.
If GW does change the wholesale amount, and the FLGS can purchase wholesale from the US, then their wholesale price drops to $27.5 AUD. Now, they could just keep the extra margin and make more profit: OR, they could decrease their prices by $27.5 AUD to make the same profit per transaction and stay at break-even.
Because GW was spending less on product, they save less on product when the exchange rate turns. They can only drop their prices by $12.5 AUD and still stay at the same level of profit in AUD. the FLGS now undercuts them by 20%!

Ok, so using your example, I'm only going to work in AUD and convert at the end because I can't be bothered expressing everything twice, product is $100AUD, wholesale $55AUD, manufacture/distribution is $25AUD. Lets call running costs $30AUD for convenience.

Exchange rate is 0.5..
Final RRPt: $100
Wholesale: $55
Manufacture: $25

FLGS sells product, FLGS makes: $45 - 30 = $15
FLGS sells product, GW makes: $30

GW sells product, GW makes: $75 - 30 = $45

So in USD, GW makes $15USD off an FLGS sale and $22.5USD off a GW sale.

Now, exchange rate changes to parity, all other things being equal (GW don't lower RRP or wholesale), manufacture cost drops to 12.5AUD

Final RRP: $100
Wholesale: $55
Manufacture: $12.5

FLGS sells product, FLGS makes: $45 - 30 = $15
FLGS sells product, GW makes: $42.5

GW sells product, GW makes: $87.5 - 15 = 72.5

So in USD, GW makes $45.2USD off an FLGS sale and $72.5USD off a GW sale.

Their profits (in USD) increase by 300% and 320% respectively.

FLGS profits remain the same, but now their wholesale is less than US retail and they are no longer internationally competitive, people want to buy from overseas.

Now, if the market was globally dynamic (and I don't think anyone expects it to be, but we would like to see SOME effort on GW's part). Manufacturing cost (in USD) remains the same and local running costs (in AUD) remain the same.

Final RRP: $72.5
Wholesale: $27.5
Manufacture: $12.5

FLGS sells product, FLGS makes: $45 - 30 = $15
FLGS sells product, GW makes: $15

GW sells product, GW makes: $60 - 30 = 30

So in USD, GW makes $15USD off an FLGS sale and $30USD off a GW sale.

So the FLGS is now internationally competitive, customers are happier, GW is making the same money off an FLGS sale (which would be expected for a local company selling to a 3rd party exporter) and if GW make a sale themselves, they actually come out 33% better off.

The FLGS still only has $15 they can play with to undercut GW stores, as they did initially, and Oz prices are still higher than US prices but it is less appealing to buy from the US than when the price difference was 100%.

GW AUS as a whole is hovering around break-even in Australia, that pretty much means their retail stores are making a loss, right?

GW Oz has the lowest profits/revenue of any market. Now, I'm sure SOME of this is to do with higher running costs of stores in Oz, but I think it equally has to do with GW expanding stores beyond their means, expecting that they wouldn't be losing customers and market share as they raised the prices.

Now, I'm not an economist or an accountant or even a business owner. Just a wargamer with a spreadsheet. So I may have done something completely wrong.

Nor am I, and I've been doing maths all day so maybe I buggered up something in those numbers, I just pounded them out quickly before I go to bed.

But it seems to me that a FLGS could significantly undercut GW stores if they were willing to not make extra profit on the discounted wholesale rates.

Only if GW want to maintain RRP relative to old exchange rates (I'm not going to say maintain RRP in an absolute sense, as they have been raising prices against a favourable exchange rate for exporters shipping to Oz).

Then there is the point I was trying to make before: The FLGS was previously paying $X for product. They obviously think that is a fair price. Why the hell would GW go discounting that to $X/2 for them? Sales aren't elastic enough for that to increase GW's revenue. If the FLGS was paying that price, that is what GW will continue to charge them, plain and simple.

You do keep bringing up this point and I know where you're coming from but I respectfully disagree. They might have THOUGHT $X was a fair price, many years ago, but that doesn't mean the new price of $Y which = $X + price increases - competition from other companies +/- wider market factors +/- changes in exchange rate and whatever else has come up means that the perception of fairness of what is now $Y is the same perception of fairness of what was previously $X.

So many factors affect fair price perception beyond what you are talking about. Even just the fact that 15 years ago I could walk into an FLGS and see only GW stuff and a couple of board games in the "table top wargaming" section where as now I walk in and see GW stuff on a tiny shelf in the back with half a dozen other games surrounding them is a big hit on perceived value of a product.

Imagine GW actually succeeds in making it completely impossible to acquire their products from overseas. The government signs it into law that we can't purchase from anywhere other than Australian retailers. Then we won't have the ability to take advantage of the cheaper prices and our perception of fairness/value for money returns to its historical position; and in that situation, whining that US gets it for cheaper does you just as much good as whining that Broken Hill has cheaper rent than Bondi. This is what GW is trying to do (well, not getting it made into law (except they would accept that if offered ))
In this situation, the exchange rate factor just completely disappears. Obviously perception of price fairness will adjust due to greater competition from other companies, but this topic is really about the exchange rate factor.

I have been following this topic on Warseer for a lot longer than this particular thread has been going on.

Bottom line to me is that GW really is screwing its customers over in OZ because they run their empire like a mom and pop conveinence store. They need to catch up with the modern world of international commerce.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Ok, so using your example, I'm only going to work in AUD and convert at the end because I can't be bothered expressing everything twice, product is $100AUD, wholesale $55AUD, manufacture/distribution is $25AUD. Lets call running costs $30AUD for convenience.

Exchange rate is 0.5..
Final RRPt: $100
Wholesale: $55
Manufacture: $25

FLGS sells product, FLGS makes: ($100 - 55) - 30 = $15
FLGS sells product, GW makes: $55-25 = $30

GW sells product, GW makes: ($100 - 25) - 30 = $45

So in USD, GW makes $15USD off an FLGS sale and $22.5USD off a GW sale.

Now, exchange rate changes to parity, all other things being equal (GW don't lower RRP or wholesale), manufacture cost drops to 12.5AUD

Final RRP: $100
Wholesale: $55
Manufacture: $12.5

FLGS sells product, FLGS makes: ($100-55) - 30 = $15
FLGS sells product, GW makes: $55 - 12.5 = $42.5

GW sells product, GW makes: ($100 - 12.5) - 30 = 57.5

So in USD, GW makes $42.5USD off an FLGS sale and $57.5USD off a GW sale.

Their profits (in USD) increase by 280% and 255% respectively.

FLGS profits remain the same, but now their wholesale is less than US retail and they are no longer internationally competitive, people want to buy from overseas.

Now, if the market was globally dynamic (and I don't think anyone expects it to be, but we would like to see SOME effort on GW's part). Manufacturing cost (in USD) remains the same and local running costs (in AUD) remain the same.

Final RRP: $72.5
Wholesale: $27.5
Manufacture: $12.5

FLGS sells product, FLGS makes: ($72.5 - 27.5) - 30 = $15
FLGS sells product, GW makes: $15

GW sells product, GW makes: ($72.5-12.5) - 30 = 30

So in USD, GW makes $15USD off an FLGS sale and $30USD off a GW sale.

So the FLGS is now internationally competitive, customers are happier, GW is making the same money off an FLGS sale (which would be expected for a local company selling to a 3rd party exporter) and if GW make a sale themselves, they actually come out 33% better off.

The FLGS still only has $15 they can play with to undercut GW stores, as they did initially, and Oz prices are still higher than US prices but it is less appealing to buy from the US than when the price difference was 100%.

Fixed some math: You accidentally halved GW cost of operations at one point.

I think we're getting drastically different results because of the way we're treating operating cost.

IMO a flat $30 per item sold really doesn't make much sense. By far your largest costs as a GW/FLGS would be fixed, so should be averaged over your number of sales; alternatively (because we don't know the number of sales) you can split it into 'revenue needed to break even' and 'revenue with no fixed costs'. The dynamic of how you operate as a store/company significantly changes once you get into profitability; and splitting the sales numbers shows that you need a minimum amount of sales to make a profit. Your method on the other hand doesn't take into account not making a profit.
I'm assuming the FLGS is making a profit - because if they weren't they wont be in business for long. Conversely, the evidence suggests that most Aus GW stores are not making a profit, but are being propped up by other regions.
Think how would your numbers above change if GW's amortized costs were $50 rather than $30?


As a reference for costs:
Each individual GW store in Australia would probably have above $150,000 in fixed costs in Australia. Rent+Outgoings at a popular Westfield mall average around $1800/sqm annually, and a GW store would be at least 30 sqm; plus two employees at $40,000 and any other stuff I don't know about....
With GW having 36 stores in Australia and $6.66M in running expenses, this seems like a good ballpark figure. With a $25 cost on a $100 item this puts them at $20000 of revenue to break even (probably a lot more with taxes and stuff)... again with $11M in revenue between 36 GW stores all their 50+ independents this seems ballpark reasonable. (Figures from GW 2011-12 financials; GW Aus made 700k loss for this period)


Also looking at your above numbers: If GW changes their retail cost under your numbers, and there is 1 GW and one FLGS selling in equal volumes GW stands to make $45 total. Without changing the retail price, they make $100. If they can successfully prevent customers from buying overseas, will half of them quit? Reality seems to suggest no.

My understanding is that GW UK sells to GW A-P at a higher price than it does to GW USA.

They do this for two reasons:

1) A-P has shown acceptance of a higher sticker price so sales are not markedly affected

2) this creates profit in UK which is more tax efficient than recognising it in Australia. Effectively they manage GW A-P to long term zero profitability avoiding higher corporate tax on profits and leaving costly tax credits due to losses

Well that's just mean. How are us armchair economists supposed to predict doom and gloom if they're using creative accounting practices?

I would have thought the very first assumption would have been creative accounting practices. They are a business after all.

Ugh. I guess I could work it out via their average margin, revenues in Aus and internal revenues... seems difficult right now.

Trasvi wrote:

Each individual GW store in Australia would probably have above $150,000 in fixed costs in Australia. Rent+Outgoings at a popular Westfield mall average around $1800/sqm annually, and a GW store would be at least 30 sqm; plus two employees at $40,000 and any other stuff I don't know about....
With GW having 36 stores in Australia and $6.66M in running expenses, this seems like a good ballpark figure. With a $25 cost on a $100 item this puts them at $20000 of revenue to break even (probably a lot more with taxes and stuff)... again with $11M in revenue between 36 GW stores all their 50+ independents this seems ballpark reasonable. (Figures from GW 2011-12 financials; GW Aus made 700k loss for this period)

Just pointing out, GWs are all moving to 1 man stores around the corner from Westfields, not inside.

Yes, sorry, using a unit-dependent running cost I was assuming the shop doesn't change the number of units they shift.

The ACTUAL math is far more convoluted and I hate economics math because it makes way too many assumptions that IMO you can't make. If you COULD make the assumptions economists like to make, we wouldn't be in such a poo hole of an economy and businesses wouldn't die so easily.

As for half quitting, the numbers aren't that simple. My observation in Oz is that the hobby as a whole is growing, so even if GW's numbers are steady, it means they are losing some customers as prices rise to maintain the same revenue AND they are massively losing market share.

Again, this is just anecdotal, because I know of no numbers that describe the hobby as a whole in Oz, but when I started the hobby, it was easy to get a game of either Fantasy or 40k. 40k was more popular, but you could easily get a game of either and there weren't too many people playing other games.

These days, you can still get a game of 40k, you're likely to be playing against snot nosed kids though, it's harder to find people playing Fantasy and it's easier to find people playing any other random game (I won't say GW is less than any one of those games, but as a whole, it's shrunk relative to the "other" games).

So how many people are in GW games now relative to the total hobby, I could easily believe THAT number is half or even less than half of what it was when I started playing. But it's anecdotal because I don't actually have any numbers.

People being less likely to take up GW games isn't from price alone, which is why I think it's hard to make your discussion of "perceived value" due to exchange rate alone. GW have pissed people off in many ways and the market has grown which reduces the value of their products and as a proportion of the hobby market as a whole, GW are far less appealing now than they were several years ago. Trying to shut down overseas sales and charging retailers wholesale prices above international retail prices are just another kick in the balls in a line of many.

I maintain that if GW adjusted wholesale price to make retailers happier and adjusted RRP to reflect running costs in Australia vs the rest of the world, GW stores would be able to compete with FLGS stores as they do now and any losses relative to the rest of the world would be due to GW's poor business practices more than an inability to compete.

They may, of course, be doing that by raising international prices to match Oz prices rather than vice versa, the Tau bundle as a whole is only 20-30% cheaper while the Tyranid bundle as a whole was more like 50-60% cheaper (can't remember exact numbers and too busy at the moment to check).

 jonolikespie wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

Each individual GW store in Australia would probably have above $150,000 in fixed costs in Australia. Rent+Outgoings at a popular Westfield mall average around $1800/sqm annually, and a GW store would be at least 30 sqm; plus two employees at $40,000 and any other stuff I don't know about....
With GW having 36 stores in Australia and $6.66M in running expenses, this seems like a good ballpark figure. With a $25 cost on a $100 item this puts them at $20000 of revenue to break even (probably a lot more with taxes and stuff)... again with $11M in revenue between 36 GW stores all their 50+ independents this seems ballpark reasonable. (Figures from GW 2011-12 financials; GW Aus made 700k loss for this period)

Just pointing out, GWs are all moving to 1 man stores around the corner from Westfields, not inside.

Some stores are running with 1 employee only now I believe.

It does not bode well.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

Each individual GW store in Australia would probably have above $150,000 in fixed costs in Australia. Rent+Outgoings at a popular Westfield mall average around $1800/sqm annually, and a GW store would be at least 30 sqm; plus two employees at $40,000 and any other stuff I don't know about....
With GW having 36 stores in Australia and $6.66M in running expenses, this seems like a good ballpark figure. With a $25 cost on a $100 item this puts them at $20000 of revenue to break even (probably a lot more with taxes and stuff)... again with $11M in revenue between 36 GW stores all their 50+ independents this seems ballpark reasonable. (Figures from GW 2011-12 financials; GW Aus made 700k loss for this period)

Just pointing out, GWs are all moving to 1 man stores around the corner from Westfields, not inside.

Which is why I also pulled data from their financials: 6.666M in operating expenses across 36 stores is about 185k in operating expenses average per store, so my very crude estimate of rent+wages is in the right area.
1-man stores are a pretty good example of 'penny smart dollar stupid'. Similarly with moving out of the shopping complexes. The entire reason for GW stores existing is to capitalise on foot traffic. Moving out of a major centre just turns them into a FLGS with worse variety.

EDIT: 6.66M GBP = 10M AUD. So their Australian costs are even higher than I estimated.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Riquende wrote:
I'll admit to being not too clued up on the whole Oz/GW prices thing, but I do wonder is it unique to GW? What sort of markup (if any) would an Aussie pay on an average product from Mantic, Warlord, Privateer Press etc?

As a rule, things are usually 170~% higher here than in the states.

There are a number of reasons for this:

1. Centerlink. Everyone has a lot of money to go around (well, not a lot, but for some it's enough that they don't seem to feel the need to work.), so they can usually afford the prices.
2. The dollar was low 10 years ago. Not really an excuse anymore, but many large companies stick to their guns that we must pay $100 for new games instead of the US standard $60. Even if they let us pay $60 for every CoD release, they'd still make more, purchase for purchase than they do right now.
3. We don't stop buying.

Globalisation: there is a fact many ignore. in a country like AU there is lacking infrastructure, and we have a skilled work shortage, mainly attributed by an influx of foreign workers and coupled with the fact the majority of our manufaturing is done in asia. as well as the fact that many jobs (like in the US and elsewhere) has moved offshore. it is a cost cutting trend in response to the GFC/ETS. it is their way of still making a profit, at the same time many people lose their jobs. add in the "no end in sight" of refugee's meaning once they are processed there is even less work (as priority goes to fresh out of HS or foreigners. if you are unable or unwilling to work in say cleaning toilets, then some asian chap will, and most likely at a cheaper hourly rate.

there are many who are labelled as slack dole bludgers. it is a notion held by those lucky enough to be able to hold onto secure employment, for the many who don't have such luck, they sit at home bored out of their minds. is it a crime to spend so-called excess on a hobby or liesure item when they forgo a more expensive item of food (thus neglecting good proper nutition). Remember folks people on the dole are considered "below global poverty". so buying miniatures here or there is much the same as to some a holiday oversea's. and since everyone disregards the fact that only skilled workers are required, yet those who do said course to gain said job, find there is no job once they complete whatever course needed. it's an endless circle of blame. one i am tired of. so you have a job? good for you. many do not and would like for that to change but unless their own circumstances or those of society change then how are they expected to do anything but sit around in a lazy manner (percievably by someone who doesn't share the others life style choices or experience)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry for appearing to go OT. this REALLY needed to be said though