Here is the link:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/769058356/warhammer-40k-limited-edition-challenge-coins

Hooo boy.

Risks and challenges

Producing the coins is not an issue. I have done this many times before.

Even though I am familiar with copyright and trademark law and I am on firm legal ground, my only concern is that Games Workshop tries to cause an issue. Hopefully, they realize that I have done my research and I only want to enhance the Warhammer 40K experience and that I respect their company. A successful project can encourage more people to get involved in Warhammer. This is good for everyone. However, not a single copyright image or trademarked name was used on any of the coins. Basically, there should not be any issue.

Can't see GW being too happy from an IP point of view to be honest...

Not to mention he is clearly using this as a pre-order platform.

Gets popcorn

This should be fun.

While I agree with the guy that he probably is on solid legal ground, as nothing on his example coins was a trademarked name or copyrighted image, I fully expect GW to crawl up his a** any minute now.

Edit: he had better make it EXTREMELY clear up front though that this is not associated with GW. It took me a few paragraphs to be sure it was just some guy and not an inept GW foray into crowdsourcing.

Well, he is specifically using their trademarks to advertise it though.

Also, can we get a thread title update? I thought GW went kickstarter for a minute.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
, I fully expect GW to crawl up his a** any minute now.

Demonizing GW for future attempts to protect their own IP.

Oh internets, you so crazy.

Not sure what's worse, the incoming storm, or gakky coins that have nothing to do with the hobby and just show off random clipart.

 pretre wrote:
Well, he is specifically using their trademarks to advertise it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, can we get a thread title update. I thought GW went kickstarter for a minute.

Yes, you're right. If he stripped all references to "Warhammer 40k" from his descriptions and just called them "Sci-fi challenge coins" he would be ok (that and a big disclaimer up front that this is not affiliated with GW).

Aside from the potential legal issues...

What is the appeal? There are no coin-flip mechanics in 40k. I don't understand his explanation of a 'challenge coin' as being a thing which is relevant to 40k or the game in general.

Maybe as objective markers? Maybe as event freebies? Status markers?

This isn't going to end well for the people behind this kickstarter.

I'm would be surprised that Adeptus Astartes, Imperial Guard, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, and Imperium of Man wouldn't be protected under GW copyrights or IP.

I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

In fairness, I am not trying to demonize anybody, but he is wrong when he claims that he is 'on solid legal ground'.

If you look at GW's list of protected phrases, it includes:

"...the Warhammer 40,000 device, the Double Headed/Imperial Eagle device and all associated products, marks, logos, places, names, creatures, races and race insignia/devices/logos/symbols, factions, vehicles, locations, weapons, units, characters, illustrations and images .."

Which would cover all of the armies that he has listed by name for starters. As well as 'Imperium' and definitely 'Adeptus Astartes'.

I am honestly tired to the point of comatose of the continual rubbish that gets spouted about the 'big bad evil empire' of GW, especially after the 'Spots the Space Marine' debacle, but I can see that GW will be quietly asking this one to be put to one side.

Additionally, I really don't see the point in these coins, but that's a whole other topic...

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

@ Blargmasterg: GW's "ownership" of the double-headed eagle is actually in debate in the Chapter House trial.

Yeah, he is not on solid legal ground at all. He is quite obviously using GW's trademarks and faction names to make money which is quite obviously infringement. Pledging for it is a waste of time/money, he's clueless.

And I agree that there is no use for them in the first place.

Don't you get what he means with a challange coin? He is challenging GW!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

@ Blargmasterg: GW's "ownership" of the double-headed eagle is actually in debate in the Chapter House trial.

Didn't mention the double headed eagle. I mentioned the race and unti names and Imperium of man and Adeptus Astartes. The double headed eagle exactly as it appears on their logo is their trademarked device with no question. But they can't generally trademark the general device of a double headed eagle because that's been in use since Roman times.

And there's no 'r' in the middle of my name

Well, this thread wins the prize for most misleading thread title. :p

 Flashman wrote:
Gets popcorn

"Likelihood of confusion" is the central focus of any trademark infringement claim. A likelihood of confusion exists when consumers viewing the allegedly infringing mark would probably assume that the product or service it represents is associated with the source of a different product or service identified with a similar mark.

This is according to Cornell law and some other sites.

There is a bold disclaimer on the project. GW may be out of luck.

The iconography at least looks ok, but specific phrases like "Adeptus Astartes" are probably not. If he is indeed using any of their trademarks then he's just totally out of luck. Also the way in which he's advertising this is very misleading ("Warhammer 40,000 Challenge Coins", seriously?) and is probably a trademark violation in itself.

Either way, whether he's on "solid legal ground" (which I totally take back) or not, the guy is going to get a C&D for sure and this whole thing will fold.

Can we put together a Kickstarter for a collective gaming fund?

I've seen some off the wall crap on KS, this one ranks up there.

There is really no discussion on this, it's frakin stupid. Send me all of that filthy cash, dirtying your pockets. IP whatever, this is just assclownery incarnate.

That someone would do this is an attribute to the old adage- "Theres a sucker born every minute."


Fund my KS. I'm making stick figures with "Space Marine" written on them..... ooooohhhh

 blagmasterg wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

@ Blargmasterg: GW's "ownership" of the double-headed eagle is actually in debate in the Chapter House trial.

Didn't mention the double headed eagle. I mentioned the race and unti names and Imperium of man and Adeptus Astartes. The double headed eagle exactly as it appears on their logo is their trademarked device with no question. But they can't generally trademark the general device of a double headed eagle because that's been in use since Roman times.

And there's no 'r' in the middle of my name

You kinda did mention the eagle, reread what you put in quotes.

What Trademarks does GW legally own? The CHS case has already shown the GW never actually registered any of their trademarks.

Additionally, it's pretty accurate that GW wouldn't even own trademarks anyway for challenge coins.

And GW very specifically doesn't have registered or enforceable trademarks on terms like "Imperial Guard".

I'd like Sean O Brien, czakk, or weeble to weight on on this one, however, as they've got the brains for this.

 judgedoug wrote:
What Trademarks does GW legally own? The CHS case has already shown the GW never actually registered any of their trademarks.

Additionally, it's pretty accurate that GW wouldn't even own trademarks anyway for challenge coins.

And GW very specifically doesn't have registered or enforceable trademarks on terms like "Imperial Guard".

I'd like Sean O Brien, czakk, or weeble to weight on on this one, however, as they've got the brains for this.

Warhammer 40k seems like the likely legal tipping point

The heart on the BA one made me chuckle.

I'd be surprised if it was live for more than a day or two.

Kickstarter hasn't shown any hesitation to pull projects they think might be on dubious legal ground, and I can just feel the C&D letters being drafted as I write this.

 BrookM wrote:
Not sure what's worse, the incoming storm, or gakky coins that have nothing to do with the hobby and just show off random clipart.

Yeah... I mean, if you're going to violate IP, you might as well do it in style.

I don't see this lasting out the week.

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

Warhammer 40k seems like the likely legal tipping point

Maybe but the products don't actually use any legally registered trademarks.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

Do any military members who are aware of 'challenge coins' or participate in them see this as an appealing thing for wargaming? If everyone who wargamed had them because we had a coinflip mechanic sothere were reasons for unique coins it could be a neat concept.

I wouldn't mind getting a deffskull ork one if there was an option and this KS survives.

nkelsch wrote:

Do any military members who are aware of 'challenge coins' or participate in them see this as an appealing thing for wargaming?

Every single member of my last gaming group(purely made of military, spouses, or former military) had one. It's not something you really choose to not participate in(I guess if you never spend any time with your unit/squadron/etc.), at least from what I understand/my wife has explained it. It can get expensive if you don't participate.

 judgedoug wrote:
Maybe but the products don't actually use any legally registered trademarks.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about enforceability, but those do seem to include trademarked terms: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=§ion=&pIndex=6&aId=3900002&start=7&multiPageMode=true

It's a bit of a mixed bag: "Adeptus Astartes" and "Blood Angels" are registered while "Imperial Guard" and "Space Wolves" are not. But I think it's enough to craft a scary letter to Kickstarter.

Not only do these suck, who the hell am I going to challenge with them? Its not like some guy at a bar is going to drop his unit coin on the table, then I drop my Black Templars coin...I don't win, I lose. And look stupid in the process when he says "what the hell is that from?"

And yes, "challenge" coins are a real thing. Often you'll see someone drop a coin from a high ranking individual(often marked in some kind of way to identify unit), and if yours is lower ranking, or you fail to present it, you buy a drink. I never do that, and usually tell them to feth off when some guy wants to be cool, when he is probably a pogue(P.O.G. Person Other than Grunt) and show me some coin I don't care about. They are cool to collect but that is about it.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

Warhammer 40k seems like the likely legal tipping point

Maybe but the products don't actually use any legally registered trademarks.

Trademarks don't have to be registered to be enforced. If GW can prove use of the marks in commerce prior to your use of them they have the rights to it. Registering said marks just makes them easier to enforce.

At any rate, KS has the right to pull the page if they feel it may generate any unwanted heat, which I imagine will be the case.

Wow. I just read all of the rules for challenging. That's pretty crazy and I agree. Who is going to accept your BT coin in a challenge? lol

 pretre wrote:
Wow. I just read all of the rules for challenging. That's pretty crazy and I agree. Who is going to accept your BT coin in a challenge? lol

No one but a group of nerds, probably.


I think my favorite coin I've seen so far was the Schriever AFB OGV coins: it's a coin with a built-in bottle opener. Somewhere, my wife also has one of the coins from the satellite launch a few years back with the emblem shaped like the Autobot symbol.

I guess the good thing about this kickstarter is that it exposed me to a tradition that I wasn't aware existed. I am now more informed than I was before I clicked the link this morning.

 pretre wrote:
I guess the good thing about this kickstarter is that it exposed me to a tradition that I wasn't aware existed. I am now more informed than I was before I clicked the link this morning.

Pretty much this. I do think that the tradition would be a fun one to have with a group of friends, perhaps with differing rules for different occasions.

Below is an update from the KS page.

"On Games Workshop legal page, GW claims trademarks and copyrights for numerous terms. However, if you run a trademark search through the US Trademark Office and Great Britain trademark office, they have only registered a few of these terms.

So basically, they are claiming numerous trademarks that they have not registered. Common law does give you some rights if you have a trademark and not registered it.


However, the central issue in any trademark case is the "consumer going to be confused by the source of the goods." You must have that for trademark infringement. This is a Kickstarter project created by a fan. It states that on my Kickstarter page. Any reasonable consumer would know that the source of these goods is not from Games Workshop.

Thank you very much for the thoughts. I know it is a tricky issue, but on the surface it really comes down to that."

That is the update posted.

There's a lot of stuff happening in the news this week. So my money is on the project lasting until Wednesday.

This... this is just going to end very poorly.

Drake777 wrote:
Below is an update from the KS page.

"On Games Workshop legal page, GW claims trademarks and copyrights for numerous terms. However, if you run a trademark search through the US Trademark Office and Great Britain trademark office, they have only registered a few of these terms.

So basically, they are claiming numerous trademarks that they have not registered. Common law does give you some rights if you have a trademark and not registered it.


However, the central issue in any trademark case is the "consumer going to be confused by the source of the goods." You must have that for trademark infringement. This is a Kickstarter project created by a fan. It states that on my Kickstarter page. Any reasonable consumer would know that the source of these goods is not from Games Workshop.

Thank you very much for the thoughts. I know it is a tricky issue, but on the surface it really comes down to that."

That is the update posted.

This isn't Fair Use or nominative use of trademarks. These are not products that are using the marks to denote compatibility. These are standalone products being advertised with trademarks on them.

Trademarks don't have to be registered in order to be protected.

More importantly, KS isn't going to fight GW on this, and I doubt the KS creator has the resources to combat a C&D or lawsuit, and pro bono representation is a slim chance.

Even if you are hypothetically in the right, I doubt you(the KS creator) have the resources to prove it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow. I just read all of the rules for challenging. That's pretty crazy and I agree. Who is going to accept your BT coin in a challenge? lol

No one but a group of nerds, probably.


I think my favorite coin I've seen so far was the Schriever AFB OGV coins: it's a coin with a built-in bottle opener. Somewhere, my wife also has one of the coins from the satellite launch a few years back with the emblem shaped like the Autobot symbol.

No those wouldn't go over so well, generally it should be a unit or commanders coin which means as cool as the one above is ( I had a hand in the design on the other side) it wouldn't work to well either except in limited circumstances. Wonder when 50OGV designed that coin mine didn't look like that but its a bit old. (and Plat for the trifecta of weird coincidences I'm also at Maxwell)

Risks and challenges
I might get caught and sentenced for fraud.

1st stretch Goal 10,000$
This is to pay the parole so I can work on this more freely

Seriously, advertising "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins" and thinking to be on safe ground is showing a lacking touch of reality.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Risks and challenges
I might get caught and sentenced for fraud.

1st stretch Goal 10,000$
This is to pay the parole so I can work on this more freely

Seriously, advertising "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins" and thinking to be on safe ground is showing a lacking touch of reality.

Exactly

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
, I fully expect GW to crawl up his a** any minute now.

Demonizing GW for future attempts to protect their own IP.

Oh internets, you so crazy.

Wow, leaping in to defend GW even when they're not being attacked.


I agree GW is going to "crawl up their ass any minute now" and is going to, in this case, be absolutely 100% in the right to do so, if for no other reason than using the term "Warhammer 40,000" to promote them.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Risks and challenges
I might get caught and sentenced for fraud.

1st stretch Goal 10,000$
This is to pay the parole so I can work on this more freely

Seriously, advertising "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins" and thinking to be on safe ground is showing a lacking touch of reality.

Haha Yes that seems like the biggest mistake here. Why not just call them "Sci-Fi Tournament Coins". He probably would have been fine with that and vague references to AN Emperor, and Guadsmen and what not. He could have maybe done quite well making coins for leagues and tournaments or something...

lol, will they be doing Dark Eldar coins?

darkeldarcrone wrote:
lol, will they be doing Dark Eldar coins?

No their other kickstarter is "U.S. Department of the Treasury Quarter" coins, of course on legally safe ground

He is using trademarks GW has asserted against CHS. If GW does NOT assert its alleged rights...well...yea, something is going to happen...

Jerram wrote:

No those wouldn't go over so well, generally it should be a unit or commanders coin which means as cool as the one above is ( I had a hand in the design on the other side) it wouldn't work to well either except in limited circumstances. Wonder when 50OGV designed that coin mine didn't look like that but its a bit old. (and Plat for the trifecta of weird coincidences I'm also at Maxwell)

Not sure exactly when they designed it, but it was in the past 4 years or so, iirc.

Also, PM'd.

Edit: I brain farted. I think I'm thinking of the CGO coin, not the OGV coin. I'll make sure when she gets in.

Edit Deuce: Yep, CGO, not OGV.

Drake777 wrote:
"Likelihood of confusion" is the central focus of any trademark infringement claim. A likelihood of confusion exists when consumers viewing the allegedly infringing mark would probably assume that the product or service it represents is associated with the source of a different product or service identified with a similar mark.

This is according to Cornell law and some other sites.

There is a bold disclaimer on the project. GW may be out of luck.

Well, there has to be a trademark in the first place...so..."Imperial Guard?"

Imperial Guard is a generic term, unless you want to call Napoleon's Army unoriginal.

 Aerethan wrote:

More importantly, KS isn't going to fight GW on this, and I doubt the KS creator has the resources to combat a C&D or lawsuit, and pro bono representation is a slim chance.

I'm agreeing with you that Kickstarter probably wouldn't bother to fight, but you are seriously underestimating how much cash those folks have access to.

I find it a little odd that this was even green lit, but hey I am not a lawyer.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

More importantly, KS isn't going to fight GW on this, and I doubt the KS creator has the resources to combat a C&D or lawsuit, and pro bono representation is a slim chance.

I'm agreeing with you that Kickstarter probably wouldn't bother to fight, but you are seriously underestimating how much cash those folks have access to.

I find it a little odd that this was even green lit, but hey I am not a lawyer.

~Eric

I mean the person who made this particular KS, not the person/company who created KickStarter entirely.

Any random schmuck can make a KS.

I would also very much argue that "Adeptus Astartes Challenge Coin" creates an impression that it's an official product(which is the reason I clicked on this thread to begin with) and that it is misleading and creates brand confusion. And I don't even like GW very much. They will C&D, KS will pull it. Give it a few days.

 Aerethan wrote:


I mean the person who made this particular KS, not the person/company who created KickStarter entirely.

Any random schmuck can make a KS.

I would also very much argue that "Adeptus Astartes Challenge Coin" creates an impression that it's an official product(which is the reason I clicked on this thread to begin with) and that it is misleading and creates brand confusion. And I don't even like GW very much. They will C&D, KS will pull it. Give it a few days.

Totally misread you on that one, sorry.

I agree that this will probably not last.

~Eric

If done at cost plus shipping, for personal use is not resale... using kick starter as a means to perform a group buy. I see no issues on this. You may personally reuse anyone's IP as long as you do not resell. Its all part of the DMCA kids.

As for challenge coins, being in the military for the last 16 years I have amassed quite a collection and its odd I have not thoughtto bring the idea to 40k for the gaming club.

Also generally speaking... coins bought are worthless, coins gifted are coveted. So we tend to make custom coins and regift them in appreciation for troops that perform with excellence.

Although i don't believe there are pictures/ illustrations of any, a Horus Heresy era lodge coin might be more appropriate than a challenge coin. Although i like the idea, and militarily it works, i just don't think it fits the gaming community unless they were used for a specific game function or the coins had become their own subculture (with coins readily available) within the entire 40k gaming culture (kind of like a lodge coin system).

 blagmasterg wrote:
If you look at GW's list of protected phrases, it includes:

"...the Warhammer 40,000 device, the Double Headed/Imperial Eagle device and all associated products, marks, logos, places, names, creatures, races and race insignia/devices/logos/symbols, factions, vehicles, locations, weapons, units, characters, illustrations and images .."

Which would cover all of the armies that he has listed by name for starters. As well as 'Imperium' and definitely 'Adeptus Astartes'.

Note that these are the things GW CLAIMS, and we all know GW has a habit of claiming various legal rights that they don't actually have.

Legaly the guy can do this if he didnt or doesnt mention GW or 40k as space wolfs and dark angels and so have been in films programs books before gw even had any idea.

Thats like saying GW invented orks they didnt and they can claim all they want but theywill be laughted out of court and any picture or image on the coin as long as it is altered slightly so that its not an exact copy of any drawing by gw is also safe

But who the hell wants to buy these stupid coins any way every stupid idea should not be put on kick start

 edweird wrote:
If done at cost plus shipping, for personal use is not resale... using kick starter as a means to perform a group buy. I see no issues on this. You may personally reuse anyone's IP as long as you do not resell. Its all part of the DMCA kids.

As for challenge coins, being in the military for the last 16 years I have amassed quite a collection and its odd I have not thoughtto bring the idea to 40k for the gaming club.

Also generally speaking... coins bought are worthless, coins gifted are coveted. So we tend to make custom coins and regift them in appreciation for troops that perform with excellence.

Please don't spread ignorance. IP is protected even against personal use. Furthermore, this is trademark issue, not copyright.

And no, you cannot use anyone's IP as long as you don't sell it. It is theirs to do with as they please, in nearly every respect.

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

Being a military guy I can vouch that coins are pretty popular. For a game... I don't get it...

 edweird wrote:
If done at cost plus shipping, for personal use is not resale... using kick starter as a means to perform a group buy. I see no issues on this. You may personally reuse anyone's IP as long as you do not resell. Its all part of the DMCA kids.

Can you quote the specific section of the DMCA that says that?

nkelsch wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

They are in fact a "thing". Ask any military member, they can tell you about them and why you ALWAYS have one on you.

Do any military members who are aware of 'challenge coins' or participate in them see this as an appealing thing for wargaming? If everyone who wargamed had them because we had a coinflip mechanic sothere were reasons for unique coins it could be a neat concept.

I wouldn't mind getting a deffskull ork one if there was an option and this KS survives.

No.

The world at large tends to frown on what we use them for.

Military members don't use these coins for tossing.... lol

This guy should have just up and did the KS project for the gift of air from his lungs.

Counting down to when this gets stomped into the dirt by a power armoured boot.......

 pretre wrote:
Hooo boy.

Risks and challenges

Producing the coins is not an issue. I have done this many times before.

Even though I am familiar with copyright and trademark law and I am on firm legal ground, my only concern is that Games Workshop tries to cause an issue. Hopefully, they realize that I have done my research and I only want to enhance the Warhammer 40K experience and that I respect their company. A successful project can encourage more people to get involved in Warhammer. This is good for everyone. However, not a single copyright image or trademarked name was used on any of the coins. Basically, there should not be any issue.

Haha right, this has put an image in my head of someone trying to negotiate with a face hugger egg as it starts to open up.

 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 edweird wrote:
If done at cost plus shipping, for personal use is not resale... using kick starter as a means to perform a group buy. I see no issues on this. You may personally reuse anyone's IP as long as you do not resell. Its all part of the DMCA kids.

Can you quote the specific section of the DMCA that says that?

It's uh, in the part with the words, according to my GED in Law.

Normally I loathe when the IPquisition steps in and ruins a thread because someone recast an arm, but in this case it's well and truly deserved. They are marketing a product as a "Warhammer 40K this thing", which is, to a moron, clearly infringing. Moreover, they're doing it for profit, which while not making it any more infringing, is certainly more worthy of actually dropping the hammer, IMO.

Also, that clip art ranges from mediocre to awful.

 pretre wrote:
I think Challenge Coins are a thing. Hmm Wiki:

A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. Traditionally, they are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members. In practice, challenge coins are normally presented by unit commanders in recognition of special achievement by a member of the unit. They are also exchanged in recognition of visits to an organization.[1]

Yup. Its pretty much a military service insider deal. I know several people who have served within the last few years, they all know about them, a couple have/had them.

Seriously? Is this for real. It's a jokestarter right?

I'd happily believe this was a law student who's become aware of some weak marks from the CHS case and is provoking GW into proving it in court. So it's entirely possible they've realised that they can get away with it, but then it's entirely possible they'll just be shot down because they got it wrong.

Worth pointing out - the "not for profit" argument DOES hold sway over infringement here in the UK, as you are allowed to modify media you own physically for personal use (such as remixes, music videos or photoshop loonery), along with works of satire, and a few other defined categories that escape me right now.
That being here in the UK... you know... where GW themselves are, I'm not sure that would apply to anything conceived outside the UK.

However, this guy's *clearly* asking for it. Not just as it's for profit and legally about as stable as a marshmallow gantry, but because the one community that could appreciate this - those with a military background - will likely see this as a callous attempt at a cash-in.

 doktor_g wrote:
Seriously? Is this for real. It's a jokestarter right?

It's a kick-in-the-nuts-starter.
Weird it is still up.

 Platuan4th wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Do any military members who are aware of 'challenge coins' or participate in them see this as an appealing thing for wargaming?

Every single member of my last gaming group(purely made of military, spouses, or former military) had one. It's not something you really choose to not participate in(I guess if you never spend any time with your unit/squadron/etc.), at least from what I understand/my wife has explained it. It can get expensive if you don't participate.

In the Army we have them but I've never met another soldier that cares too much about them. For the things that the Air Force typically uses them for, you would most likely be told to shut up in the Army* haha. Not speaking bad about the Air Force but coins in the Army are just coins. Sure they can be hard to get but they count for nothing in your career so why bother with them lol.

As a member for the military I would honestly think they would be cool if GW gave them out at events.Or maybe something that you could get at military sponsored gaming events. But not something you just buy. Sort of defeats the purpose.

Coins are nifty to earn and have on your desk, thats about it. the whole coin challenge thing gets old after a while. you will never win with one of these. Our squadron coin was a dime... Air force cares too much for coins from the army. Spoken from experience.

How is this thing still up?

Crap designs using someone else's trademark? Yeow. Gonna be painful...

The reason they are so popular in the military community is because you get them from high ranking members of said military. I have a coin from the Assistant Commidant of the Marine Corps (4 Star General), Commander of US Forces Central Asia (3 Star), Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (I drove him around for two days), a 2 Star in the Air Force, a Col. that I knew, and a Master Sergeant who is a good friend of mine. Thats why we love these coins. I also get the coins of units I served in and ships I've served aboard.

Why anyone would want to drop their money on some crappy coins made for a tabletop game I have no idea. But it seems they are missing the whole point. I read somewhere that two guys just got out of the service and made an agreement with NASCAR to make challenge coins for each driver. The driver would then pass them on to fans making them an amazing collector's item. I have no interest in NASCAR but it seemed like a great idea. Just going online to buy a coin that anyone can buy that isn't limited edition seems like a complete waste. Maybe if Matt Ward or one of the other writers had them and gave them out to fans it would be interesting. Most of the charm of the challenge coin is from the memories of getting them.

I still remember standing there in my dress blues after being in the honor guard of a navy change of command and meeting the Assistant Commidant of the Marine Corps. I asked him for his coin and got it and I was "coin hunting" the rest of my service. I've never carried one around to challenge anyone and I've never seen it done. They are just suveniors, but ones that I enjoyed collecting.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Crap designs using someone else's trademark? Yeow. Gonna be painful...

Yup, Napoleon's gonna be pissed when he sees someone making a coin with "Imperial Guard" on it

I had coins from a Warrant, a 1 Star, a couple of Drill Sgt. coins, and a few others I don't remember.

And then they all got stolen. So I don't have any military coins anymore but I have my FBI, NSA, Secret Service coins.

I'd actually back this (for the novelty) if I thought it wasn't going to get nuked into the ground.

 judgedoug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Crap designs using someone else's trademark? Yeow. Gonna be painful...

Yup, Napoleon's gonna be pissed when he sees someone making a coin with "Imperial Guard" on it

I believe "Adeptus Astartes" is the trademark that sticks out the most.

Regardless, terrible idea is terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like this exact quote from his KS:

In simple terms, Games Workshop has trademarked the name Warhammer 40,000

I'm like 100% sure that GW's trademark of the name "Warhammer 40,000" applies here as it's collectibles which is one of their markets.

And yet the very name of the KS campaign is "Warhammer 40K Limited Edition Challenge Coins".

The title itself creates brand confusion, regardless of the tiny disclaimer saying he's not GW.

 Davespil wrote:
The reason they are so popular in the military community is because you get them from high ranking members of said military. I have a coin from the Assistant Commidant of the Marine Corps (4 Star General), Commander of US Forces Central Asia (3 Star), Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (I drove him around for two days), a 2 Star in the Air Force, a Col. that I knew, and a Master Sergeant who is a good friend of mine. Thats why we love these coins. I also get the coins of units I served in and ships I've served aboard.

Why anyone would want to drop their money on some crappy coins made for a tabletop game I have no idea. But it seems they are missing the whole point. I read somewhere that two guys just got out of the service and made an agreement with NASCAR to make challenge coins for each driver. The driver would then pass them on to fans making them an amazing collector's item. I have no interest in NASCAR but it seemed like a great idea. Just going online to buy a coin that anyone can buy that isn't limited edition seems like a complete waste. Maybe if Matt Ward or one of the other writers had them and gave them out to fans it would be interesting. Most of the charm of the challenge coin is from the memories of getting them.

I still remember standing there in my dress blues after being in the honor guard of a navy change of command and meeting the Assistant Commidant of the Marine Corps. I asked him for his coin and got it and I was "coin hunting" the rest of my service. I've never carried one around to challenge anyone and I've never seen it done. They are just suveniors, but ones that I enjoyed collecting.

I concur, from the Army perspective.

My friends and I welcomed the new guy to the unit by challenging.

We never actually made him pay, but some of the looks we got in response were hilarious. Except the one time the new guy threw out his 3 star coin.

rigeld2 wrote:
My friends and I welcomed the new guy to the unit by challenging.

We never actually made him pay, but some of the looks we got in response were hilarious. Except the one time the new guy threw out his 3 star coin.

Never actually participated in the challenging practice, I heard everyone has to buy you a beer. Is that true?

 Davespil wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
My friends and I welcomed the new guy to the unit by challenging.

We never actually made him pay, but some of the looks we got in response were hilarious. Except the one time the new guy threw out his 3 star coin.

Never actually participated in the challenging practice, I heard everyone has to buy you a beer. Is that true?

We always did it that the lowest ranking coin buys the round (or night, depending on how long we were staying).
Normally the new guys would come in without a coin and therefore losing - the prospect of a $5-600 bar tab was daunting to many of them
But like I said, we never actually made them pay it so it was more for fun. Every once in a long while we'd coin check each other if we were too lazy to go get a beer for ourselves.

Lawsuit in 3...2...1...

rigeld2 wrote:

 Davespil wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
My friends and I welcomed the new guy to the unit by challenging.

We never actually made him pay, but some of the looks we got in response were hilarious. Except the one time the new guy threw out his 3 star coin.

Never actually participated in the challenging practice, I heard everyone has to buy you a beer. Is that true?

We always did it that the lowest ranking coin buys the round (or night, depending on how long we were staying).
Normally the new guys would come in without a coin and therefore losing - the prospect of a $5-600 bar tab was daunting to many of them
But like I said, we never actually made them pay it so it was more for fun. Every once in a long while we'd coin check each other if we were too lazy to go get a beer for ourselves.

Yup. It used to be a bigger deal in the Navy (we're getting away from the "drunken sailor" image...), but it's a tradition that's sadly fading. It's a bigger deal in the Chief's Mess (for non-Navy types, they're our senior NCO's) and amongst the officer corps, but most junior enlisted could care less.

I know many Chiefs that will carry around one of their higher-ranking coins while on liberty or meeting up as a Mess just for the possibility of "challenging," but I don't know a single one that would purchase something like this. I myself have several coins (my two favorite being a French EOD coin I obtained while in Cherbourg and my Assistant Secretary of the Navy coin that I was given during a breakfast with him, I can't wait to lay that one down!), and I certainly would not purchase one of these. The only coins I (and most others I know) purchase are from my own command, to hand out to others. IP issues aside, I don't see much value in this...

Hey Bart, check it out, I got a 40k pog. Remember Pogs? Well, they're back, in 40k form!

If he's so sure that GW's trademarks don't apply to collectable coins, why not use the right iconography? Hell, at least use the Maltese Cross instead of the Cross pattée for the Black Templars.

I don't mind the idea, but the execution stinks. These half-assed designs aren't worth $23.

$609 Pledged?? Seriously?

I quite simply cannot fathom that....

 DiabolicAl wrote:
$609 Pledged?? Seriously?

I quite simply cannot fathom that....

Only takes 15 rubes...

I wasn't horribly offended until I saw the IG one.

That is not the right tank.

 spectreoneone wrote:
but most junior enlisted could care less.

How much less?

(No, I'm not letting this go.)