Hello curious readers, I have a question for you.
I've always heard and read how GW had messed up rules, gameplay, and/or fluff that had differing levels of consequence. My question is that aside from creating the universe we all know and love (to a certain point for some) what can you think of that GW did right?

Most of the models are pretty good.

The setting as a whole is ok.

The rules and points values are sometimes a bit out of whack.

They stopped open gaming in some of their stores. Apparently, that was great news!



Seriously, for all the derpy business choices, they still produce a game that, while it has its flaws, is visually distinct from other games currently on the market, scales up to bigger battles than most other 28ish mm games, and so long as you play with like-minded opponents is still a lot of fun to play.

And for every Belial, there's a Lelith that reminds you what they can do when they try...

Despite all the garbage, they still make the best mini game out there.

Best fluff, ease of finding players, quality of product, availability or product, and ongoing support of the game.

Good minis
Generally fun games
Lots to moan about (I'm British, moaning is fun.)

You can't please all the people all the time. People disliking aspects happens, and is not unique to GW.

The rules are a bit messy sometimes, but its a complex game

Yeah great looking models, so many different races, all with rich backgrounds. A detailed timeline of events. The game is fun. The employees at my local GW shop are very helpful and friendly (games workshop Woden, Canberra). Yeah.

Of GW? Nothing.

40k? A large installed player base and a fun background

Free rules for specialist games

Some good games:epic/titan legions, manowar, warmaster, mordheim, necromunda, bloodbowl

In the past some really good metal miniatures

Plastic miniatures (many, not all of course)

Original 2 RoC volumes

Some decent terrain and painting books

You can't please all the people all the time. People disliking aspects happens, and is not unique to GW.

I'm not saying that GW is the only f**k up in the entertainment industry. I'm sure that other traditional games that people know and love all had that 'dark era' where things just didn't work brilliantly.

Despite all the garbage, they still make the best mini game out there.

Best fluff, ease of finding players, quality of product, availability or product, and ongoing support of the game.

True dat. I've always wanted to use the GK models because regardless of the fluff, I like how they look. As for "availability or product", tell that to my bro who was one day too late for the Limited Edition C:CSM.

scales up to bigger battles than most other 28ish mm games, and so long as you play with like-minded opponents is still a lot of fun to play.

mm=Multi-Melta. The imagery of 28+ people shooting each other with huge hot particle beam guns as sport. And everyone is having a blast while doing so? Orky priceless.

 Selym wrote:

Lots to moan about (I'm British, moaning is fun.)

This.

People bitch and moan about things they care about.

If people were truly fed up with it, they wouldn't come to the internet (or wherever) to complain. They'd just do something different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
scales up to bigger battles than most other 28ish mm games, and so long as you play with like-minded opponents is still a lot of fun to play.

Actually, that is not one of 40Ks strong suits.

As it is an IGO-UGO system, larger battles (more units) always mean more downtime for the inactive player. If you double the number of points per army, you (more or less) double the "downtime" for the opposing player.

If you want to - say - play a game of 500.000 pts, you'd probably be able to go home for a day or two while it's the other guys turn, and vice-versa.

Games with unit-by-unit activation scale much better, because the ratio of "my-play-time-vs-your-play-time" doesn't change, no matter how large the armies are you field.

 gnoise wrote:
Hello curious readers, I have a question for you.
I've always heard and read how GW had messed up rules, gameplay, and/or fluff that had differing levels of consequence. My question is that aside from creating the universe we all know and love (to a certain point for some) what can you think of that GW did right?

this, in a nutshell. They might be expensive but gw produce some pretty cool models, and a few amazing ones (and a few crappy ones too ). And no matter what anyone says, the rules are good
for making dramatic, tense battles between my friends and I.

Sometimes, just sometimes they release realy good miniatures. (DV, DE, normal Eldar, Death Company and a few others ).

What do you think would the best looking model GW made overall or for each army (SM in general instead of each chapter)?

 Zweischneid wrote:

Actually, that is not one of 40Ks strong suits.

Can you name a commercially available game currently on the market that deals with armies as large as, say, even a 2000 point 40k army?

40k doesn't have to do large games particularly well to be better at it than games that don't do it at all.

 insaniak wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Actually, that is not one of 40Ks strong suits.

Can you name a commercially available game currently on the market that deals with armies as large as, say, even a 2000 point 40k army?

Bolt Action.

What GW does right is the technical side of their production and kits - leagues ahead of anyone else in the market.

Games Workshop Customer Support is a model for all other companies to follow. I haven't heard anything but praise for the Customer Support.

The day we stop complaining about Warhammer is the day we stop caring about it

Their setting is good, it's distinct. And the models are good, easy to build, easy to convert and look dynamic.

The only problem I have with GW is their pricing and their 'cinematic' rules.

Recently one word, Riptide, that model is one of the best kits I've ever seen. The fact that all the joints are ball joints allows the model amazing possibility. I hope that is the new direction that GW will take their plastic lines with as many kits as they can. Not sure if its possible for the infintry models bit at least for the larger kits. Still the thought of my boys having ball sockets at the armpit and hip sockets would be amazing. No more cuting, reposing and the. Finishing up with green stuff. Just dry fit and glue to the desired poss. Please, pretty please.

I personally enjoy the background stories and black library quite a lot. Their art department is also extremely good. The covery of the latest daemons of chaos codex was such a beautiful picture. Their Forgeworld books are also extremely cool to read. After I think Imperial armor 6 or so, they really figured out how to make good books and the last 5+ imperial armors have been a joy to read.

If you get the spare cash, I'd highly recommend the horus herasy Betrayal book 1. That thing is a work of art in many ways. It also rekindles alot of my love of space marines that got me into the game in the first place. It really feels like a return to their roots in many ways.

The universe. I'm a huge fan of the universe.
Most of the minis look amazing. They have some "poop" ideas once in a while, but I still say I love every single army, they all look great.
Not only do they look amazing, most of them so far have been very "user-friendly" to assemble.
It's a fun and tactical game.

Dislikes: High prices (surprise, surprise ) and the lack of support for SoB. C'MON, GIVE THE WOMEN A CHANCE!

 gnoise wrote:
What do you think would the best looking model GW made overall or for each army (SM in general instead of each chapter)?

BA - Nothing, they all look like a bunch of gold-plated pansies to me.
CD - The Daemon Prince [plastic]. I love the angular spikeyness
CSM - Pretty much all the new models (except the 'drake, it looks like it needs a tail.)
DA - The deathwing
DE - No idea...
Eldar - No idea...
GK - GK Terminators
IG - The BEIHNBLAAADE!
Necrons - The warriors. Srsly. feth huge numbers of them.
Orks - Ghazghkull
SOB - The one with boobs. No, the one with the boobs. No, she has a gun and boobs. I probably shouldn't start a SOB army...
C: SM - Lysander, Vulkan, Khan and Shrike. They're badasses.
SW - Arjac Rockfist.
Tau - None.
Tyranids - Almost the entire range.

Their multi option kits. Take the Leman Russ Demolisher, for example. Out of the box with no magnets you can field almost every imaginable configuration of the thing. I used to think nothing of it until I learned what the other companies' kits are like. Now I appreciate the effort that went into it. I still wish it wasn't half a Ben but...

It saddens me to see these types of threads in 40K General Discussion, it's like people don't know WHFB exists.

As for the good things about GW, they've given to me a hobby which I enjoy very much and for that alone I'm grateful.

 insaniak wrote:
They stopped open gaming in some of their stores. Apparently, that was great news!

I've heard this a lot now, and it makes me confused because my store not only promotes gaming, but also their veteran members hanging out there and I am pretty sure they do a few of their own things .

 gnoise wrote:
What do you think would the best looking model GW made overall or for each army (SM in general instead of each chapter)?

Space Marines: Terminator Chaplain. Considering it's often posted in "best model ever" threads it shouldn't come as a surprise
Chaos Space Marines: The new Raptors/Warp Talons.
Chaos Daemons: Juggernauts. Almost tempted to start Daemons just because they have Juggernauts.
Grey Knights: Terminators. For me, the Grey Knights are their Terminators.
Tau: Hammerhead. It looks sleek and deadly.
Eldar: Wraithlord/Wraithseer. "Why yes, I have no eyes, but I'm still going to punch you in the face!"
Dark Eldar: Wyches, with Lelith in particular.
Orkz: The Aircraft and/or Stompas there's so many small, silly details on the Stompa.
Sisters of Battle: Celestine. Again, half tempted to start SoB just because of her.
Imperial Guard: Basilisks. I'm a cannon-fan.
Tyranids: Trygons.
Necrons: Monoliths. Just as the GKTs are Gk for me, Monoliths make Necrons.

 gnoise wrote:
Hello curious readers, I have a question for you.
I've always heard and read how GW had messed up rules, gameplay, and/or fluff that had differing levels of consequence. My question is that aside from creating the universe we all know and love (to a certain point for some) what can you think of that GW did right?

GW's latest models are by far the best multi-part plastics on offer from anyone, and even though some of their older plastic kits are a little dated relative to what can now be produced, the fact that so much of their line is available in plastic (and the rest is open for conversion with Finecast) means that GW has by far the most customizability on offer of any of the major producers. This in turn means that the armies typically used in 40k are far more unique than those seen in other systems, since the customizability of the models is backed up with an extreme level of customization for their army.

Further, GW has been very successful in establishing itself as the "big guys" in the industry. For this reason, it's very easy to find a GW game. Most people that get into the hobby also start with GW, so most other games owe a large part of their fanbase to the existence of GW as a "gateway drug" to miniatures wargaming.

All in all, GW certainly does make mistakes, but they still produce a very good project and are #1 in the industry for a reason.

 insaniak wrote:
They stopped open gaming in some of their stores. Apparently, that was great news!

It's great news if you plan on simply going in and buying something without being harassed by the regulars. Touch wood they ban painting and modelling for non newcomers too. It'd supposed to be a shop, not a daycare or social hub.

It's a restaurant! You're supposed to order and eat food, no talking.

Their 'churn and burn' mentality brings new blood into the hobby, then quickly turns that new blood into embittered veterans who are willing to try other games. Except for those few holdouts who insist GW is the greatest thing evar.

 insaniak wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Actually, that is not one of 40Ks strong suits.

Can you name a commercially available game currently on the market that deals with armies as large as, say, even a 2000 point 40k army?

40k doesn't have to do large games particularly well to be better at it than games that don't do it at all.

There are loads of rulesets that deal with much larger armies (and navies) but they are all historical as far as I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other plusses are being a high street presence for table top wargaming and long term, a centre of employment for designers, sculptors and artists. It is astonishing how many of the current generation of wargame sculptors have been employed at GW. They might never have got a start otherwise.

Well everything apart from forgetting to copyrite 'slotta bases' from 1987 to 1997.

During this time GW established great game worlds with good depth of game play in the rules ,with heavy narrative bias, and their house style of sculpting.
A freindly and informal TWO WAY communication with the fan base.

This and the MB games joint ventures which gave them massive market saturation and share.
So this these 10 golden years of GW , grew its customer base and market share to the highest in the world.(Doubled turn over every 3 years.)

Since the LoTR boom which they mis handles a bit.(Mr T Kirby admitted this to the share holders in an annual report.)

GW have simply lost sales volumes , by believing the easiest course of action is the best course of action.
They simply failed to recognise the changing market, and make the changes required to grow its market share.

So all the great stuff is down to the GW studio staff.
All the crap is down to Mr T Kirby.

 BryllCream wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
They stopped open gaming in some of their stores. Apparently, that was great news!

It's great news if you plan on simply going in and buying something without being harassed by the regulars. Touch wood they ban painting and modelling for non newcomers too. It'd supposed to be a shop, not a daycare or social hub.

What got me into 40k was the fact that the game base was very visible right from the start. I walked in to see a crowd (of admittedly rather squashed) people somehow juggling three games at the same time, painting, chatting, laughing, and generally having fun. To me, at the start, that was the face of GW.
Good people enjoying a hobby together.

And I'm sure there are many here who feel the same way. I acknowledge that the store is a... store, but at the time, if I'd walked in and seen just three walls of boxes and a large window, with one over-worked manager, devoid of gamers, I probably would have quit before even starting.

Good points?

GW exposed a lot of eager newbies to miniature wargaming who otherwise may not have taken up the hobby in the first place.

Garnering a high street presence these last 25 or so years has helped a niche gain traction.

For all their faults GW are still the envy of many a new games company wanting a piece of the action.

Skaven

I think we're missing the truly best part of GW:

Da WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


















(That's 300 Orks)

From an old veterans perspective GW does not have many good points lately, they create decent quality plastic models that utilize some but not all the potential they have at their disposal as a manufacturer.

Modern GWs greater opponent is the old GW, up to the end of WH40k 2nd edition, GW was a company that challenged the industry in quality, manufacturing process, game design and presentation, it wasn't all bright and shiny back then too, but they cared more about their product and cared for the hobbyist the painter. past that era, GW has progressively moved further away from their customer base and more aggressively tries to dictate to their customers what they need and how their games should be played.

Discarding the many negatives I perceive in current GW, they have one really developed IP that people love, 40k and have pushed it as hard as they could, they offer a complete product and their games for various reasons have a big player base.

Your metaphor makes no sense. Gaming tables in gw were and are dominated by a handful of regulars, usually kids, who just get in the way of people who just want to go in and buy stuff. I get that it may be different elsewhere but it makes about as much impact as a game store removing an Xbox stand as far as I'm concerned

Inquisition and Orkz.

Aside from that, they can churn out a decent model every once in a while. Although their fascination with arbitrary gaudiness and over-decoration has hurt a lot of their more recent releases, which become more mediocre to disappointing each time, as they seem to get more and more toyetic. The Fisher Price proportions that are the legacy of an era gone by do not help things either.

Hopefully, whenever they get around to releasing the updated Orkz, they'll be able to remind me what made their models so good looking in the first place.

Oh, and Forgeworld is pretty cool.

WHFB 8th army books are well-balanced. Sadly, the BRB is very mediocre and needs restrictions to work.

For me.....the single strongest thing about GW is the intellectual property.

Outside of Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, Transformers etc it is virtually unassailable in my opinion.

The Black Library churns out the fluff and I keep buying into it.

As a business it has some hard decisions ahead, but hey thats another thread lol

GW produces the only larger-than-skirmish scale rules at 30mm-ish, and these rules hold up under most situations... other systems rules would be stressed at the scales at which most GW games are played at and they too would have fractures. GW also, for the most part, puts out fine models.

Perhaps the best part about GW is that their failing business practices have created a surge in wargaming mini's, and GW itself has really created wargaming as a hobby common enough that people can actually find pick-up games. Their successes and mistakes have helped other games define themselves and create excellent rule sets. Many GW players have been able to go to a diverse array of model manufacturers to get their modelling bits when GW's set lacks, and without GW businesses like Pig Iron would not exist.

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

Don't ya know? Gee Dubs was around before Dune, Starship Troopers, Aliens, Judaic demons and robots!

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

The examples I can think of are the starcraft marines and those nid-like aliens.
But GW just adapted archetypes, and in several cases just plain copied them:

Necrons + WBB = The Terminator + Arnie's catchphrase
Nids = The Aliens form The "Alien" movies.
SM = Already existed in Sci-fi, but not to this degree
Power Armour = same as above
IG = Space-trooper in any sci-fi movie
Chaos/The Chaos Gods etc = Lovecraft's work (Cthulu)

The Orks, however, are an original creation

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There are loads of rulesets that deal with much larger armies (and navies) but they are all historical as far as I know.

Yeah, I probably should have said 'commercially available sci fi game...

Please let's not get into an argument about which long established F/SF themes GW co-opted into 40K. There are far too many and they have been well explored.

Let's stick to the genuinely good things.

 insaniak wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Actually, that is not one of 40Ks strong suits.

Can you name a commercially available game currently on the market that deals with armies as large as, say, even a 2000 point 40k army?

40k doesn't have to do large games particularly well to be better at it than games that don't do it at all.

Defiance Vital Ground. The points values are comparable to 40K (vehicles are more expensive, but tend to have more impact). Game play ends up being about the same as for 40K (or at least what 40K used to be...about an hour for 1000 point games, 2 hours for 2000 point games...). I have used it to play games up to about 5,000 points per side. Activation is random based on a card draw...so, you might have one or two units move in a row or you might alternate units.

It has largely become our go to rules for large scale, large scale games. Even then, rules designed for 15mm, 10mm and even 6mm can be used for 28mm well enough. Simple math to convert distances upwards. You can even use Epic with 28mm figures (did that more than once back in 3rd edition...before GW introduced Apoc...granted, that was on a 6x10 table).

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Please let's not get into an argument about which long established F/SF themes GW co-opted into 40K. There are far too many and they have been well explored.

Let's stick to the genuinely good things.

Like...
The fact that I now know how to chant "KILL MAIM BURN!" and not sound utterly ridiculous... Wait.. Nope... Still can't.

Well, the entertainment value is still there

And let's not forget about the awesomeness of Captain Titus!

While Orcs / Orks are of course not a GW creation, I've always enjoyed their take on them.

Instead of being minions of an evil sorcerer (LoTR, every D&D adventure ever), they are their own masters and take no nonsense from anyone.

 Selym wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

The examples I can think of are the starcraft marines and those nid-like aliens.
But GW just adapted archetypes, and in several cases just plain copied them:

Necrons + WBB = The Terminator + Arnie's catchphrase
Nids = The Aliens form The "Alien" movies.
SM = Already existed in Sci-fi, but not to this degree
Power Armour = same as above
IG = Space-trooper in any sci-fi movie
Chaos/The Chaos Gods etc = Lovecraft's work (Cthulu)

The Orks, however, are an original creation

hate to tell you but even their improvements are things already existent from points as early as the 60s by many authors, but either way this brings up my favorite thing about GW, the combining of all these universes into one! 40k is the slam dunk of sci-fi fantasy, every single little bit of most sci-fi/fantasy universes have been incorporated. from the fluffiest softest sci-fi concepts that never set foot on real earth all the way to the hardest most scientifically sound geographically based terran concept they seemlessly meld it all, and they also leave enough room in their universe for a lot to happen. in my opinion the longer GW works on 40k stuff the more they theoretically restrict it.

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

EA ripped off many different vehicles from GW in C&C. Starcraft marines, yes, those too. More generally, green-skinned Orks and Orcs in Warcraft; don't forget the first WFB book was in '83. Tyranids being Zerg. I'd counter the analogy of Tyranids to Aliens by saying that early Tyranid models looked nothing like Aliens and that Tyranids themselves being a hive mind is distinctively different than Aliens; they have steadily become Aliens though, if for no other reason than people like to piggy-back on the successes of other companies marketing. Starship Troopers has nothing to do with the IoM, if you read the book (its insanely boring) you'd realize that Heinlein's novel actually matches Tau Crisis Suits better, but fluff and books for Crisis Suit pilots aren't common enough for there to be a real comparison there yet. If you're looking at the Starship Troopers movie, then I should direct you to a Wikipedia on World War 2. Most scifi meatgrinder armies are inspired by something between Nazi's and Stalingrad.

I'm not sure I see any blatantly overt ripoffs from Dune in GW's works, there might be inspirations of course (because very few concepts are original) but there may be, I was never big into Dune. Necrons are obviously Terminator, can't deny that. Chaos gods being Cthulhu is imaginitive, Azathoth and Cthulhu and such aren't themselves copied, I would've thought you'd have drawn the connection between them and Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, and Hindi traditions first. The Emperor is obviously a Christ analogue.

Dune gives us the astropaths and ship travel, not in the book itself but in the EXSTENSIVE material following the book describing their universe. and I guess even a little in the book itself, theres just no spice in the 40k universe.

 jeeb_sound wrote:
Dune gives us the astropaths and ship travel, not in the book itself but in the EXSTENSIVE material following the book describing their universe. and I guess even a little in the book itself, theres just no spice in the 40k universe.

Spice, ha!

This brings up a f'kn brilliantly good point of GW if you are looking to emulate their success in sustaining a vast fictional universe which sells a product. GW's tropes are THE tropes for a huge amount of fans and players out there. Space marines are the only marines. Orks lokk much better than the outdated look of other orcs. Dune has astropaths? Dune? A name that inspires blank looks to a fair amount of the player base (and thus the target market).

Xyrael wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

EA ripped off many different vehicles from GW in C&C. Starcraft marines, yes, those too. More generally, green-skinned Orks and Orcs in Warcraft; don't forget the first WFB book was in '83. Tyranids being Zerg. I'd counter the analogy of Tyranids to Aliens by saying that early Tyranid models looked nothing like Aliens and that Tyranids themselves being a hive mind is distinctively different than Aliens; they have steadily become Aliens though, if for no other reason than people like to piggy-back on the successes of other companies marketing. Starship Troopers has nothing to do with the IoM, if you read the book (its insanely boring) you'd realize that Heinlein's novel actually matches Tau Crisis Suits better, but fluff and books for Crisis Suit pilots aren't common enough for there to be a real comparison there yet. If you're looking at the Starship Troopers movie, then I should direct you to a Wikipedia on World War 2. Most scifi meatgrinder armies are inspired by something between Nazi's and Stalingrad.

I'm not sure I see any blatantly overt ripoffs from Dune in GW's works, there might be inspirations of course (because very few concepts are original) but there may be, I was never big into Dune. Necrons are obviously Terminator, can't deny that. Chaos gods being Cthulhu is imaginitive, Azathoth and Cthulhu and such aren't themselves copied, I would've thought you'd have drawn the connection between them and Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, and Hindi traditions first. The Emperor is obviously a Christ analogue.

The Chaos pantheon was not inspired by Lovecraft, it was Michael Moorcock's work with the Eternal Champion and related books such as Elric, Hawkmoon, etc. They even acknowledged Moorcock in the first or second edition whfb rukebook.

I'm British so of course I get a kick outta moaning... BUT their fluff is genuinely really good, and they put out very good models.

Good points:

1, Market saturation. You can go to many clubs/stores and get a GW game in. They're like Mcdonalds. You can go to any one of them and know what you're going to get.
2. Models/design. Some gems in amongst the dross. No longer the "world's best" miniatures company, but certainly the largest.

In the end, It is easier to get a game for 40k then many others.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
In the end, It is easier to get a game for 40k then many others.

Not really, if I want to get in a game of 40k, I have to plan it with the people I play with, it's all based on your local play area.

Lovepug13 wrote:
For me.....the single strongest thing about GW is the intellectual property.

Outside of Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, Transformers etc it is virtually unassailable in my opinion.

The Black Library churns out the fluff and I keep buying into it.

As a business it has some hard decisions ahead, but hey thats another thread lol

I agree with this, GW might be an awful corporate entity, but I absolutely love the fluff as long as it's well written. Dan Abnetts books are as entertaining as anything I have ever read in science fiction, and I'll keep on lapping it up.

There's quite a few things I like about GW, or at least the stuff they produce; they make some awesome models and I love the background despite its ridiculousness... OK, actually BECAUSE of its ridiculousness. I think their rules are nowhere near the best out there, but they're still fairly enjoyable for what they are.

Tyranids.

Quite possibly the best realized alien miniature range on the market, thanks to sticking with some key design philosophies applied across the entire range that tie it all together.

Well, they haven't (AFAIK) filed any horrible lawsuits this week yet, so that's a good thing.

I really like a lot of the models, especially the DE range.

The setting is an interesting mix of a lot of other tropes but very approachable and certainly has a lot of material to consume.

My kids like it and it gives us something to have pretty good quality time around.

Xyrael wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

EA ripped off many different vehicles from GW in C&C. Starcraft marines, yes, those too. More generally, green-skinned Orks and Orcs in Warcraft; don't forget the first WFB book was in '83. Tyranids being Zerg. I'd counter the analogy of Tyranids to Aliens by saying that early Tyranid models looked nothing like Aliens and that Tyranids themselves being a hive mind is distinctively different than Aliens; they have steadily become Aliens though, if for no other reason than people like to piggy-back on the successes of other companies marketing. Starship Troopers has nothing to do with the IoM, if you read the book (its insanely boring) you'd realize that Heinlein's novel actually matches Tau Crisis Suits better, but fluff and books for Crisis Suit pilots aren't common enough for there to be a real comparison there yet. If you're looking at the Starship Troopers movie, then I should direct you to a Wikipedia on World War 2. Most scifi meatgrinder armies are inspired by something between Nazi's and Stalingrad.

I'm not sure I see any blatantly overt ripoffs from Dune in GW's works, there might be inspirations of course (because very few concepts are original) but there may be, I was never big into Dune. Necrons are obviously Terminator, can't deny that. Chaos gods being Cthulhu is imaginitive, Azathoth and Cthulhu and such aren't themselves copied, I would've thought you'd have drawn the connection between them and Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, and Hindi traditions first. The Emperor is obviously a Christ analogue.

I'll just take the Tyranids aspect of your post, as there's many other things that are either not quite right or flat out wrong that I'm sure others will point out.

The Tyranid race evolved, conceptually from the Genestealers, and, to a lesser extent the Zoats and one or two concept sketches that were fleshed out. Now, not knowing your history, I don't know if you remember that far back, but Genestealers were for a long time a pretty stand alone monster, with very detailed background about reproduction etc. which revolved around 'implantation' into other animals in order to propagate. Now, some of the details diverge from the Alien organism, but anyone who knew both creatures could see the obvious parallels.

As for your hive mind assertion, well, Aliens are very much modelled after social insects in terms of their social construction (ants,termites etc) all GW did is amplify this to an inter galactic level, but the overall function (the GW Hive Mind is analogous to the various individual Alien Queens from the films) remains the same.

To try and argue the concept of the Tyranid race does not draw heavily from the Aliens movie franchise (which pre dates the game by a number of years, and Nids didn't really come into their own until well into second edition) is just wrong IMO.

 insaniak wrote:
And for every Belial, there's a Lelith that reminds you what they can do when they try...

Aww... I like Belial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:
Tyranids.

Couldn't agree more. First GW thing I ever bought was "Tyranid Attack".

 azreal13 wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

EA ripped off many different vehicles from GW in C&C. Starcraft marines, yes, those too. More generally, green-skinned Orks and Orcs in Warcraft; don't forget the first WFB book was in '83. Tyranids being Zerg. I'd counter the analogy of Tyranids to Aliens by saying that early Tyranid models looked nothing like Aliens and that Tyranids themselves being a hive mind is distinctively different than Aliens; they have steadily become Aliens though, if for no other reason than people like to piggy-back on the successes of other companies marketing. Starship Troopers has nothing to do with the IoM, if you read the book (its insanely boring) you'd realize that Heinlein's novel actually matches Tau Crisis Suits better, but fluff and books for Crisis Suit pilots aren't common enough for there to be a real comparison there yet. If you're looking at the Starship Troopers movie, then I should direct you to a Wikipedia on World War 2. Most scifi meatgrinder armies are inspired by something between Nazi's and Stalingrad.

I'm not sure I see any blatantly overt ripoffs from Dune in GW's works, there might be inspirations of course (because very few concepts are original) but there may be, I was never big into Dune. Necrons are obviously Terminator, can't deny that. Chaos gods being Cthulhu is imaginitive, Azathoth and Cthulhu and such aren't themselves copied, I would've thought you'd have drawn the connection between them and Abrahamic, Zoroastrian, and Hindi traditions first. The Emperor is obviously a Christ analogue.

I'll just take the Tyranids aspect of your post, as there's many other things that are either not quite right or flat out wrong that I'm sure others will point out.

The Tyranid race evolved, conceptually from the Genestealers, and, to a lesser extent the Zoats and one or two concept sketches that were fleshed out. Now, not knowing your history, I don't know if you remember that far back, but Genestealers were for a long time a pretty stand alone monster, with very detailed background about reproduction etc. which revolved around 'implantation' into other animals in order to propagate. Now, some of the details diverge from the Alien organism, but anyone who knew both creatures could see the obvious parallels.

As for your hive mind assertion, well, Aliens are very much modelled after social insects in terms of their social construction (ants,termites etc) all GW did is amplify this to an inter galactic level, but the overall function (the GW Hive Mind is analogous to the various individual Alien Queens from the films) remains the same.

To try and argue the concept of the Tyranid race does not draw heavily from the Aliens movie franchise (which pre dates the game by a number of years, and Nids didn't really come into their own until well into second edition) is just wrong IMO.

Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me!

The concept of "Chaos" and the various things associated with it such as beastmen, are straight from Moorcock, not Lovecraft. Worth noting is that GW once upon a time had the license to Elric of Melnibone, the Moorcock novels which most heavily feature Chaos. While there are certainly elements of Lovecraft to the modern Chaos mythos, it's quite unreasonable to think he's the main influence on it.

Okay models and art in general.

Decent background fluff.

Fun if kludgy rules.

Not much else.

The Auld Grump

paint, their paint is abundant in most model shops I come across and to my knowledge has stayed the same price

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
... and to my knowledge has stayed the same price

For this month, sure.

Even ignoring the drop in size when they changed from the (now) Coat D'arms range to the bolter-shell bottles, GW's paints have had numerous price rises over the last 10 years or so.

GW's paints are reasonable, but there are other ranges as good or better for either a lower price or a bigger volume. Or both.

 insaniak wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
... and to my knowledge has stayed the same price

For this month, sure.

Even ignoring the drop in size when they changed from the (now) Coat D'arms range to the bolter-shell bottles, GW's paints have had numerous price rises over the last 10 years or so.

GW's paints are reasonable, but there are other ranges as good or better for either a lower price or a bigger volume. Or both.

I use Reaper, The Army Painter, and Vallejo more than GW.

Reaper and Vallejo both have, in my opinion, better paint that is more reasonably priced.

The Army Painter paints are also reasonably priced, and have a good match with the spray primers.

That said, GW paint is pretty good - just not the best.

Back to the topic at hand - the free downloads for the Specialist Games, Mordheim in particular! Mordheim is awesome!

The Auld Grump

I feel like the biggest good point of GW is that they make 40k. I absolutely love the universe, and while it does take inspiration from many things, I would say that the 40k universe is very unique and evocative, and in my opinion generally awesome.

Most of the models are really cool, too.

 gnoise wrote:
What do you think would the best looking model GW made overall or for each army (SM in general instead of each chapter)?

Space Marines: the gorget/power fist Sternguard Veteran. It simply oozes awesome (at least to me).
Chaos Daemons: the FW Brass Scorpion, especially when painted glossy like the one pictured
Chaos Space Marines: The Raptors/Warp Talons box set. lots of detail, lots of movement, and all around neat models.
Dark Eldar: the Razorwing Jet Fighter. It feels so much more like a real plane than the other fliers, and has that awesome Eldar sleekness.
Eldar: Harlequins. All of them. Nothing more to say about that.
Imperial Guard: This commissar. I just like the pose and feel of the model.
Necrons: Monolith, because it's an awesome, giant model, and I feel it exemplifies the Necrons as implacable death machines, even if the rulebooks kinda left that behind for a faster army.
Orks: ... where do I begin? It's tough, but I'd have to go with either the Dakkajet (so much detail! so ramshackle!) or the Shokk Attack Gun (for pure orkyness incarnate).
Sisters of Battle: helmeted basic Sisters. I just like the designs, and if I had the money, I would totally want an army composed of them.
Tau: Shas'O R'Myr. Not sure why, but I just love the model. I feel like it's a good bridge between the lanky and mobile-looking Hazard suits and the chickenwalker normal suits. It's sleek and looks practical.
Tyranids: This one is also very hard, because so many of the models are awesome. If I had to just choose one, though, it'd probably be the Deathleaper, both for his characterization and the model itself.

Nah, best model in the Tyranid range is the Warrior.

Not only is it a 3rd edition model, it still stacks up really wall against things like the Carnifex or Tyrant. The only downside is the lack of poseability of the legs.

Whoops... wrong post....

But I am starting up a Mordheim campaign again, soon....

The Auld Grump

Warhammer World, Bugman's Bar and the many excellent people who work at GW HQ. Never have I had a bad time there.

I also really respect their attitude to the "canon" - that it is almost infinitely flexible and is only ever one version of a story that may or may not be true.

R.

forrestfire wrote:I feel like the biggest good point of GW is that they make 40k. I absolutely love the universe, and while it does take inspiration from many things, I would say that the 40k universe is very unique and evocative, and in my opinion generally awesome.

Most of the models are really cool, too.

Imperial Guard: This commissar. I just like the pose and feel of the model.

Yeah, it looks nice. But for me, its gotta be this.

The Shadow wrote:It saddens me to see these types of threads in 40K General Discussion, it's like people don't know WHFB exists.

As for the good things about GW, they've given to me a hobby which I enjoy very much and for that alone I'm grateful.

My bad, I just assumed all was well for WHFB cause I didn't hear/see anything wrong with it. Now, to move this to general discussion...
EDIT: Haha, looks like someone beat me to it. Good thing too cause I didn't know how to do it.

Selym wrote:I think we're missing the truly best part of GW:

Da WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


















(That's 300 Orks)

This. So much win.

 jeeb_sound wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

Xyrael wrote:

Finally, GW has created many iconic scifi images which have often been emulated or simply stolen by companies such as Blizzard or EA. Many modern scifi archetypes are GW creations.

Wh-what?!

Examples, please.

The examples I can think of are the starcraft marines and those nid-like aliens.
But GW just adapted archetypes, and in several cases just plain copied them:

Necrons + WBB = The Terminator + Arnie's catchphrase
Nids = The Aliens form The "Alien" movies.
SM = Already existed in Sci-fi, but not to this degree
Power Armour = same as above
IG = Space-trooper in any sci-fi movie
Chaos/The Chaos Gods etc = Lovecraft's work (Cthulu)

The Orks, however, are an original creation

hate to tell you but even their improvements are things already existent from points as early as the 60s by many authors

Not sure where you're going with this. That's pretty much what I just said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
For me.....the single strongest thing about GW is the intellectual property.

Outside of Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, Transformers etc it is virtually unassailable in my opinion.

The Black Library churns out the fluff and I keep buying into it.

As a business it has some hard decisions ahead, but hey thats another thread lol

I agree with this, GW might be an awful corporate entity, but I absolutely love the fluff as long as it's well written. Dan Abnetts books are as entertaining as anything I have ever read in science fiction, and I'll keep on lapping it up.

Can't deny it, few sci-fi books/movies/tv series' can beat a well-written book set in the 40k universe

Helsreach anyone?

The Universe which they created (40k and warhammer) is one of the best (IMO) the whole middle age religeous fanatism transplanted to future is a great idea.

They have released some iconic figures.

Loved the books they have released (even before Black library).

(i will not uther a word about pricing and the current management)

The only thing that HP lovecraft may have added is the whole hidden cult thing, but nothing in regard to the Chaos gods or demon's because the true forms of the ancient ones/elder ones are never described in HP's work, and it would drive you mad anyway Shub-Niggurath!

That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
paint, their paint is abundant in most model shops I come across and to my knowledge has stayed the same price

Paint has always gone up in price every couple of years, with less in the bottle and the system isn't that great now. Some indiviual paints are better, but Vallejo beats them hands down now.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
paint, their paint is abundant in most model shops I come across and to my knowledge has stayed the same price

Paint has always gone up in price every couple of years, with less in the bottle and the system isn't that great now. Some indiviual paints are better, but Vallejo beats them hands down now.

Isn't that a subjective viewpoint?

 BryllCream wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
paint, their paint is abundant in most model shops I come across and to my knowledge has stayed the same price

Paint has always gone up in price every couple of years, with less in the bottle and the system isn't that great now. Some indiviual paints are better, but Vallejo beats them hands down now.

Isn't that a subjective viewpoint?

The Vallejo part, yes it is a bit subjective, but there can be quantitative analysis of consistency and coverage.

As for the less paint, that's pretty much what I've seen. Other paints give more paint per penny than GW and they seem to have less of it in their new bottles.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Actually, that is not one of 40Ks strong suits.

Can you name a commercially available game currently on the market that deals with armies as large as, say, even a 2000 point 40k army?

Bolt Action.

What GW does right is the technical side of their production and kits - leagues ahead of anyone else in the market.

Any game that works on a smaller scale eg dropzone commander, flames of war and battle group kursk.

What GW did right`?
-Some models. Love 'em!
-40k universe. Awesome books came out of it.
And maybe greatest thing GW ever released:
-GorkaMorka!

 Willi4mis wrote:
What GW did right`?
-Some models. Love 'em!
-40k universe. Awesome books came out of it.
And maybe greatest thing GW ever released:
-GorkaMorka!

Hahahah i love gorka morka best game ever made by gw.

 Willi4mis wrote:
And maybe greatest thing GW ever released:
-GorkaMorka!

Tried replaying it recently and its not good at all - too many tables checking tables cross referencing tables.

Could do with a revision and it'd be much improved.

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

Eh?

'tis not all Space marine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Warhammer_40,000_novels

And i don't expect Pulitzer price well written stories, i want SF Pulp!

The first Space Marine and Inquisitor book are still one of my favorites!

Most BL books are little more than the equivalent of a petrol garage forecourt hamburger.

Charity shopped all of mine last week, inc all the HH ones.

SO how about WHFB and/or The Hobbit players out there? Anything GW did that was good for your game?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

And the caphias cain books are indeed very similar to the flashman books.

But why is that a bad thing? I'm an avid reader, I've enjoyed both the sharpe series and flashmans exploits, and I don't think it lessens the experience being aware of the former writers.

Dan Abnett actually is an excellent writer. I'm not a fan of most of the BL and I think Graham mcneil is fully a bad writer. I have tried to avoid him after working all the way through the pitiful ultramarines series and a storm of iron, but stick with Mr Abnetts work and I guarantee you would enjoy them.

Titanicus is also fething brilliant with not a space marine in sight, and both the ravenor and eisenhorn trilogies were very well received as well.

I don't think it's a bad thing in itself, but I do think it can't be counted as a good thing in the sense of "good things GW have done".

 Selym wrote:

Can't deny it, few sci-fi books/movies/tv series' can beat a well-written book set in the 40k universe

Helsreach anyone?

HAHAHAHA.

Haven't had that good a laugh in at least a week. Cheers for that.

GW is great for their army concepts and general fluff, but every time they try to flesh something out in more depth than is required for a Codex, they fall flat on their face. Best they've done, IMO is the Index Astartes series in White Dwarfs several years, and even that was hit-or-miss (admittedly that was probably due to personal bias on which Legions I did and did not like).

Models are quite nice, too, although lately some of the things they've come up with are a bit too cartooney for my tastes.

 gnoise wrote:
SO how about WHFB and/or The Hobbit players out there? Anything GW did that was good for your game?

They got Vampires right. Merciless, immortal, scheming bastards who think of humans as cattle.

None of this sparkling in the sun or having a soul bull gak.

 mattyrm wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a lot better than Sharpe, Gaunt alone is a stronger charector than Sharpe, and the interactions he has with the people around him are a lot more believable - and interesting - than in Sharpe. He also doesn't inexplicably rise up the ranks.

Pre 1995 everything. Post 1995 a slow decent into madness.

I cant be bothered with the company anymore

 Necro wrote:
Pre 1995 everything. Post 1995 a slow decent into madness.

I cant be bothered with the company anymore

Mordheim came out post '95. Anything after then I'm inclined to just ignore.

Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

 Necro wrote:
Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

40k is better than it's ever been. Which edition do you prefer and why?

2nd was the best for me personally (I know a lot of peeps don't like that ed nut that was the best for me). I cant play 6th as they have ruined it with flyers.

I persevered with it up until 6th and now my money will go else where. I have had great times with the product but it isn't the same anymore.

The embargo really killed GW for me. I can afford the hobby easily, but why That said I have branched out to some great new games so I am happy

 Necro wrote:
I cant play 6th as they have ruined it with flyers.

Find like minded people and play without them? Out of everyone in my group, I'm the only one with a flyer, a Flyrant. And I generally try not to Swoop it. 6th edition without flyers is actually pretty awesome.

That's actually true. I play infrequently, these days, but when I do play it's with my buddy. Neither of us can really be arsed to buy new stuff, so neither of us actually has any fliers, and so far neither of us have had any major problems with 6th.
Although, he plays Dark Angels, who have just gotten a new Codex, so he might be tempted to get some new stuff. I'll see what happens.

BryllCream wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a lot better than Sharpe, Gaunt alone is a stronger charector than Sharpe, and the interactions he has with the people around him are a lot more believable - and interesting - than in Sharpe. He also doesn't inexplicably rise up the ranks.

BryllCream wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

40k is better than it's ever been. Which edition do you prefer and why?

You really are mainlining the cool aid at this point aren't you?

Thing is, if you simply added 'I think' or 'in my opinion' you would come across as much less of a fanboy, but as it is, you are confusing Your opinion for objective fact.

The 40k universe is definitely the best thing GW has ever done. I love the background and setting, I think it's great and entertaining. Personally, I love a lot of Black Library, especially Abnett and ADB.

I'm also a pretty big fan of the game and the rules. I know a lot of people have issues with it, and I certainly have a couple myself, but I still have a lot of fun with it. The models lately have been pretty hit-or-miss, and the prices are outrageous, but for the most part the game is fun to play.

 azreal13 wrote:

BryllCream wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a lot better than Sharpe, Gaunt alone is a stronger charector than Sharpe, and the interactions he has with the people around him are a lot more believable - and interesting - than in Sharpe. He also doesn't inexplicably rise up the ranks.

BryllCream wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

40k is better than it's ever been. Which edition do you prefer and why?

You really are mainlining the cool aid at this point aren't you?

Thing is, if you simply added 'I think' or 'in my opinion' you would come across as much less of a fanboy, but as it is, you are confusing Your opinion for objective fact.

To be fair it's quite clear this is his opinion - it's a message board. Adding IMO or I think is redundant: a bit like suggesting he needs to conform to your need for him appear to not like something as much as he quite clearly does.

Quite why feel the need to get a riled up and start tagging labels on people is beyond me.

Well we wouldn't be part of Bryll's "Butt Hurt Brigade" (whatever the feth that is) if we didn't assign labels...

 notprop wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

BryllCream wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a lot better than Sharpe, Gaunt alone is a stronger charector than Sharpe, and the interactions he has with the people around him are a lot more believable - and interesting - than in Sharpe. He also doesn't inexplicably rise up the ranks.

BryllCream wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

40k is better than it's ever been. Which edition do you prefer and why?

You really are mainlining the cool aid at this point aren't you?

Thing is, if you simply added 'I think' or 'in my opinion' you would come across as much less of a fanboy, but as it is, you are confusing Your opinion for objective fact.

To be fair it's quite clear this is his opinion - it's a message board. Adding IMO or I think is redundant: a bit like suggesting he needs to conform to your need for him appear to not like something as much as he quite clearly does.

Quite why feel the need to get a riled up and start tagging labels on people is beyond me.

Riled? Not in the slightest, it is, as you say, an Internet forum and if I was actually getting involved enough to get riled, I would need to look at my priorities.

As it is, I don't think being on an Internet forum excuses impoliteness, its more important that we phrase things in a polite manner to avoid our intentions being misconstrued.

I found these comments, especially the second one, to be poorly phrased, and came across as rude. Try offering contradictory opinions as fact, with little or no justification, to your friends and see how long it takes before they get irritated and tell you to blow it out your hole.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, and I agree that in many cases this could be taken as implied, but we all have a responsibility to express those opinions in an appropriate manner. I found these quotes, to me, didn't.

PS I realise the irony of talking of politeness when I was obviously sharp, but I plead historical precedent in this case!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well we wouldn't be part of Bryll's "Butt Hurt Brigade" (whatever the feth that is) if we didn't assign labels...

Ah if it's not the Black Knight of Butt Hurt Manor....

D'oh hoist on my own petard!

 azreal13 wrote:

BryllCream wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

'
I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a lot better than Sharpe, Gaunt alone is a stronger charector than Sharpe, and the interactions he has with the people around him are a lot more believable - and interesting - than in Sharpe. He also doesn't inexplicably rise up the ranks.

BryllCream wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

40k is better than it's ever been. Which edition do you prefer and why?

You really are mainlining the cool aid at this point aren't you?

Thing is, if you simply added 'I think' or 'in my opinion' you would come across as much less of a fanboy, but as it is, you are confusing Your opinion for objective fact.

I wasn't aware that I needed to add the words "in my opinion" when stating my opinion.


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 azreal13 wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

BryllCream wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
That may be so - but the WELL written 40k novels are few and far between.

It's a long hard road to find one that ISN'T marine-fanwank-bolterporn.

I've never read any WH40K books so I don't know but I have heard that the best ones are "inspired" by the Flashman and the Sharpe series of novels.

Yeah dogs statement is entirely unfair thanks to the existence of Dan Abnett and Sandy Mitchell.

The gaunts ghosts series is really excellent military sci fi, he writes such good dialogue between the officers and men of the Imperial guard you could be forgiven for thinking that the bloke was in the Navy SEALs! He has been compared to Cornwell, but obviously I wouldn't go that far.

Gaunt's Ghosts is a lot better than Sharpe, Gaunt alone is a stronger charector than Sharpe, and the interactions he has with the people around him are a lot more believable - and interesting - than in Sharpe. He also doesn't inexplicably rise up the ranks.

:

BryllCream wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Mordheim, Necromunda BFG, Tailsman, and Epic were all great. 40K and Fantasy have been butchered to the point of unplayable now

40k is better than it's ever been. Which edition do you prefer and why?

You really are mainlining the cool aid at this point aren't you?

Thing is, if you simply added 'I think' or 'in my opinion' you would come across as much less of a fanboy, but as it is, you are confusing Your opinion for objective fact.

To be fair it's quite clear this is his opinion - it's a message board. Adding IMO or I think is redundant: a bit like suggesting he needs to conform to your need for him appear to not like something as much as he quite clearly does.

Quite why feel the need to get a riled up and start tagging labels on people is beyond me.

Riled? Not in the slightest, it is, as you say, an Internet forum and if I was actually getting involved enough to get riled, I would need to look at my priorities.

As it is, I don't think being on an Internet forum excuses impoliteness, its more important that we phrase things in a polite manner to avoid our intentions being misconstrued.

I found these comments, especially the second one, to be poorly phrased, and came across as rude. Try offering contradictory opinions as fact, with little or no justification, to your friends and see how long it takes before they get irritated and tell you to blow it out your hole.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course, and I agree that in many cases this could be taken as implied, but we all have a responsibility to express those opinions in an appropriate manner. I found these quotes, to me, didn't.

PS I realise the irony of talking of politeness when I was obviously sharp, but I plead historical precedent in this case!

that'd good, you can tell that you've made an effort. You've clearly done well in exams.

Meanwhile my comments were curt because I'm posting on my phone from the canteen at work, but feel free to insult me further

No more walls of text, please.

Please!

Unless you make an acrostic.

...it's like flying over ziggurats...

Well, for a start, The Lord of the Rings game is a bloody fantastic game. Well balanced, an engaging system, kinda realistic and great models (save the new Gollum). It's the game that got me into wargaming, and I've never forgotten the first game I played: my wood elves led by Haldir got pulped by some pesky Goblins!

Speaking of Wood Elves, I think GW did some really really nice work on the WHFB Wood Elf range. I think that's what keeps me around for GW stuff - the models. I think that the old models look fantastic (well a lot of them, there are of course many exceptions to the rule) and the newer ones are also good. The new Dark Eldar look bloody fantastic. So do the Grey Knights and, no matter what people say, the Chaos Space Marines look really, really good.

I also think that they've managed to write engaging background for both 40k and Fantasy. Look at the 40k background forum if you don't believe me - the world is detailed and enthralling, allowing people to argue which of the 18 superhuman badasses is their favourite, for example. Their fantasy realm is also really good. There are some great stories in there, such as the Sundering and the many wars of Chaos. That's what really makes 40k and WHFB stand out - the fluff, which manages to merge many pop culture references and influences into a coherent realm. In fact, if GW had made up everything themselves, I don't think that it would have been quite so popular - after all, if you're thrown into a new world, you want some familiarity.

40k no longer really interests me. To be honest, I've never really enjoyed 40k that much. Fantasy and LOTR continue to be really amusing, though, and I long for the day when I'll find someone to play Epic and Warmaster with!

The fluff.

The way they have set up the fluff, for me, is genius. They are able to rewrite the story and add new elements in because it all really is just campfire tales. People telling tales to each other of things they have heard at the last campfire they sat at, genius.

Also, when they had events that actually affected the story or made you feel like you were going to make an impact with the way you played; that really was what drove me to play 40k. Before this I had spent a lot of time playing D&D and always enjoyed playing in more established enviroments. So when I saw 40k and how they were doing these kind of global events that only required me to play locally, I bought in.

I am still interested in the stories of 40k, but I stopped playing because it has stopped feeling like they care about them.

Orks.

Orks are the last holdover from "fun" 40k when the game realized it was parody. For every failed story trying to emo-ify Orks there's a far more memorable one that includes something like pirates questing for fancy hats.

Of course when the Ward codex comes out...

 BryllCream wrote:

I wasn't aware that I needed to add the words "in my opinion" when stating my opinion.

You don't have to do anything in your posts, but couching your replies in softer language might make your replies appear less militant and therefore less likely to provoke a reaction as they did in me in this case. Just sayin.

 BryllCream wrote:

that'd good, you can tell that you've made an effort. You've clearly done well in exams.

Meanwhile my comments were curt because I'm posting on my phone from the canteen at work, but feel free to insult me further

I would excuse brevity, but I won't excuse curtness, impoliteness or anything else negative just because you're on your phone. That's just a convenient excuse to cover poor manners people trot out.

As for insulting you? Well, all I can see that you may have been insulted by is the cool aid comment, and if you're insulted by that, I would really read back over your comment history and reconsider your approach!

I will, however, continue to call you out on poorly made arguments, 'curt' posts or anything else that pops up on my screen

Oh, and yes, I did very well in my exams, although they were some time ago. Thanks for caring.

Quite why feel the need to get a riled up and start tagging labels on people is beyond me.

Yeah having fallen foul of both sides I agree entirely, it's almost embarrassing the need to "pick a side" on here, although I do tend to sympathize more with the lovers than the haters despite the fact I'm hugely more of a hater than a white knight, my position on GW has evolved to the point where I definitely do dislike the company, and I will laugh long and loud if Chapterhouse mash them in court.

I suppose due to lovers just seemingly being slightly less hypocritical, half of the more needlessly rude haters entirely ignore me because I upset them with a few jibes whilst sticking up for GW at some point, but they seem happy to insult perceived fan boys regularly and with some venom. I don't ignore people because I used to like making the occasional cutting remark myself! Those days are over alas... But while I have many flaws, lack of integrity ain't one of them.

That said..... Gaunt better than Major Sharpe?!

Good god man! Has the world gone mad!?

I'd also put Flashman above Cain, much as I like some of BLs fiction, the literary critic in me cannot conceive of the idea of rating GW's stuff above actually celebrated writers. But perhaps in hindsight I'm being a snob.

Only Abnett really does it for me out of all their sizeable stable.

I will offer that I don't consider myself a GW 'hater' as such, more they are one company among many who's games I play, or would be interested in playing, but as they occupy a large segment of the hobby, they inevitably tend to dominate discussion on here. i do seem to have been waiting an awfully long time for them to do anything I can get behind and support however...

I like their washes too. The pots are really great for them. If only the rest of the line came in dropper bottles! It would make painting stuff so much easier.

After the past month or so?


Mordhiem, Heroquest, and the additional gaming expansions.


Had or would GW stop gakking about, they would carry over the trend of the late 90's expansions- they would not be blathering around trying to build a wall with lawsuits, and a moat filled with the blood of countless disgruntled fans.

I've revisited these rules sets with a new light, Reaper minis, and a metric gak ton of printed cardstock scenery and tiles.


The stuff is pure genius, and the ultimate fantasy game.

As for Scifi- Space Hulk is GW's best game, and Necromunda the best game system.

I'm at the point where I have so many game systems and figures that I'm good with my opinion of GW.

They suck, but get it right enough to not be entirely disappointed with them.

What about other GW role playing products such as Dark Heresy? Unless I missed someone bringing that up, what are the good parts for those type of games for those that have played/participated in it.

The good part about Dark Heresy was GW getting FFG to produce it.

That it has NOT tanked is testimony to the only wise decision to come out of the reichstag in Nottingham in years.

General army kits by GW are far ahead of other companies IMO. That is, the plastic regiment kits, tanks etc.
While some other companies have minis of the same sculpting quality - and I play games from 4 other companies - GW's kits are the best I've used in terms of options that come in the kit, customisation, and ease of assembly. The tau Pathfinder kit I just got is leagues ahead of any Privateer Press, Wyrd or Mantic plastics.

 chromedog wrote:
The good part about Dark Heresy was GW getting FFG to produce it.

That it has NOT tanked is testimony to the only wise decision to come out of the reichstag in Nottingham in years.

You, sir, have left me laughing for about 10 minutes. Exalt for that.

I've been to WHW once.
I caught a taxi from the railway station.
The local minicab driver told me that he and his mates (other local drivers) referred to GWHQ as "the reichstag" due to the VERY LARGE double headed eagle plastered over the building.

It made me laugh at the time, and as we approached it, I commented on how it was a rather obvious nickname for the building.

 chromedog wrote:
I've been to WHW once.
I caught a taxi from the railway station.
The local minicab driver told me that he and his mates (other local drivers) referred to GWHQ as "the reichstag" due to the VERY LARGE double headed eagle plastered over the building.

It made me laugh at the time, and as we approached it, I commented on how it was a rather obvious nickname for the building.

to be fair that building is specifically designed to look like a monolithic fascistic powerhouse. Very grimdark

He's not criticising it Bryll. Stop defending.

God... you're like early-days Kan. Someone even mentions GW and it's "Red alert! Shields up!".

I wasn't defending I was elaborating for those who May not have seen gwhq.

Well anyway let's all try and stick to the topic.

Even though the RPGs aren't actually GW, to answer your question they're a lot of fun. Deathwatch I can say from experience is good, and I've got friends who can testify for Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy, although I've never played them myself.

I think the 40K RPG's are great!

(/obvious bias)

 gnoise wrote:
What about other GW role playing products such as Dark Heresy? Unless I missed someone bringing that up, what are the good parts for those type of games for those that have played/participated in it.

Rogue Trader really revitalised my interest in the setting. It gives it back a sense of hugeness, wonder and mystery that bought me back to when I first read the 2nd ed 40k background, and the premise is something that few or no other RPG's have really done, or done well.

 gnoise wrote:
Hello curious readers, I have a question for you.
I've always heard and read how GW had messed up rules, gameplay, and/or fluff that had differing levels of consequence. My question is that aside from creating the universe we all know and love (to a certain point for some) what can you think of that GW did right?

I generally am hard on GW, but they are the entryway to wargaming for a lot of people. I am done with their rules, and I burn out on their background quickly these days: I prefer settings that are slightly more optimistic and realistic. 40k is, to me, akin to blood-splattered horror movies in that the constant violence and gore is almost cartoony.

But they do have moments of brilliance in all things. I think this is the reason there's always been an opinion that there's a core of gamers in the company that are constantly fighting with the 'suits' that want to aggressively market the IP for better ROI. There's some truth in this idea, but I tend to think it's an oversimplification.

Still, good things: Some of their older games had some cool, fun ideas. Necromunda's campaign system was a great way to inspire a sort of free-form meta-role-playing around the wargame. Bloodbowl is a great, fun beer & pretzels game. 40k has some good ideas, especially when it doesn't take itself too seriously. The Horus Heresy novels have some good books (and some stinkers) that rise above the "Heroes kill lots of bad guys" that is a lot of the 40k fiction. White Dwarf, in the past, did some really inspiring articles on background and modeling.

Not my favorite setting, but not without merit. I prefer to just let the setting pass.

Although, I do plan to indulge my sense of schadenfreude a bit this weekend by laughing at the Ultramarines movie.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I personally think for running with a D6 only system, they have created a fairly realistic expectation/result for everything in a very unrealistic grimdark fantasy/scifi universe.

Units work together, focusing fire on vulnerable targets and responding to their general's orders as best they can, but if they're hurt too badly and aren't very disciplined, they'll break and fall back, vehicles can be hit with weapons and beat up or a lucky penetration could cook off ammo reserves and cause the whole thing to explode. Fliers zoom and become really hard to hit (duh) or hover and have better accuracy/strafing power and can drop troops into battle, the more armor you wear, the better protected you are (Terminators in the equivalent of Full plate get a 2+, saving against most hits, sexy elf chicks or penitent battle sisters wearing strips of cloth get a 6+ but can dodge attacks in melee) bigger weapons cause more damage, an autogun (today's MBR) does nothing to power armor, but a missile launcher to the faceplate will stop that space marine dead in his tracks. Weapons with variable profiles are also pretty neat, representing the different ways they can be brought to bear (the aforementioned ML with airbursting frag ammo, tracking missiles for hitting fliers and shaped charge "krak" missiles for tough armor), psykers can cast powerful spells that have all manner of different affects but have a chance of taking "backlash" as all magic users usually do.

All manner of things, without even getting into the specifics of faction differences, and many of these things carry over to Fantasy, I just happen to never play fantasy and don't know enough about "realistic things" in a medieval setting so I won't comment there

Although the crunchy stats and points cost of all these things are sometimes just wrong or off kilter, they did a pretty good job of a creating a system that accurately represents a lot of things that would be expected in these settings

Hi bobcatt.
Are you serious or was your last post dripping in sarcasm?
WHFB in SPAAAAAACE.
Was a dodgy idea in that just about worked for a RPG -skirmish game.(RT 2nd ed.)

But 3rd ed -6th ed 40k battle game , is just the most over complicated counter intuitive rules set I am aware of!

Have you seen Epic Armageddon or Net Epic ?These games are good rules sets for battles in the 41st millenium in comparison.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi bobcatt.
Are you serious or was your last post dripping in sarcasm?
WHFB in SPAAAAAACE.
Was a dodgy idea in that just about worked for a RPG -skirmish game.(RT 2nd ed.)

But 3rd ed -6th ed 40k battle game , is just the most over complicated counter intuitive rules set I am aware of!

Have you seen Epic Armageddon or Net Epic ?These games are good rules sets for battles in the 41st millenium in comparison.

This is true, but so is bobcatt's post.

The miniatures are well made, you get lots of options and and if you like to customize you army they have very good option. That is the last and only thing I still think they are doing okey....

Personaly I'm tired of the style of the miniatures when it comes to painting them etc... but that is mostly because I have been around the IP for far to long. So it is not that exiting anymore after 20+ years... And has less to do with finecast etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
He's not criticising it Bryll. Stop defending.

God... you're like early-days Kan. Someone even mentions GW and it's "Red alert! Shields up!".

HAHAH you are the best man...