So, I've been playing on and off again since 4th edition, so this is hardly new, but as they've got a new codex, I've found myself playing against Tau more frequently. I just played another game against them tonight, and it struck me, in all these years, I don't think I've ever had fun playing against a Tau army. Not once.

And the more I think about it, the less it's surprising, as this particular army for some time now has been shutting down your opponent's ability to do things as its primary style, but it seems even more egregious with the current codex.

For example, why does it matter how I move or deploy if my opponent's guns are basically always in range, and they basically always ignore cover now? What's the point of bringing high-mobility options when so many things get interceptor, and come with secondary weapons so they still get to shoot the next turn anyways? What's the point of the assault phase when you can eat an entire army of overwatch fire every time you charge? What's the point of the shooting phase if you stuff is either not in range, because their stuff has longer range and/or is more mobile, and because your opponents get to use the shooting phase but you don't, thanks to MSM and LOS-blocking terrain.

And don't get me wrong, it's not that Tau are just overpowered or anything. I can handle strong armies. It's more that I don't even want to win against Tau if it means I have to suffer through playing a game against them. It just feels like the special rules of this army have traditionally, and now moreso, just cheapen so much of the game that it's rather difficult to see it as more than my opponent doing virtually nothing (not likely moving that much, and never assaulting), and spending their time preventing me from doing virtually anything, what with making so many of my potential decisions irrelevant. Really, I might as well just watch someone play yahtzee with themselves.

And so this thread is in the general forum not because I need advice for how to beat Tau armies. What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

Or should I just take a little break until the next codex comes out and I can finally get some non-tau opponents to play against again?

Pretend you hate all the models you've lovingly assembled and painted and want to watch them die to sushi in mechas.

It helps if you stop playing under self-imposed limits where you don't take powerful units and cripple yourself before the game even begins. And it really helps if you stop assuming that a game against Tau is going to suck and turning everything into a self-fulfilling prophecy. For example, if you refuse to get scared into giving up the assault phase because of overwatch you'll realize that you can charge first with an expendable bait unit, or charge multiple units at the same time and divide up overwatch, or just take tough units that can shrug off overwatch fire and win combat anyway. But you're never going to enjoy the game if you insist that you're helpless against everything Tau can do and not even bother to try.

With Tau, you can't force overwatch that easily, since you can overwatch within 6', the charged units overwatches the bait, and all squads on the sides overwatch the main threat.

Considering you play Imperial guard, I really think that your army has some of the best tools for dealing with Tau. Hit them with a bunch of Russes. Massed AV 14 is going to be more of a threat to them now that the only S 10 in their army is from hammerheads and that gauntlet (which a battlesuit has to get close to use.) Sure they have 18" melta guns, but a bunch of st8 shooting should be more than enough to kill all of it before it gets that near, and if they deep strike they get one turn to blow you off the board before you destroy them.

I run horde orks.

They point at tau and larf

Granted not many tend to be standing sometimes to be enjoying that post battle larf, but it can be fun to see how many will survive long enough to get stuck in ...

I play Tau, BA, and IG. I have plenty of fun playing vs tau, mostly because they lack a lot of the OP crap of other codexes...they have some good units but they don't have a deathball or a leafblower list that everyone at the flgs runs. And even our crisis suits are pretty wimpy to a lot of things. They're little more than doubled up space marines with more agility...

Then again I haven't tried the new codex yet. Maybe we're actually good again instead of having a codex chocked full of units that are crap (vespid, ethereals, bodyguards, kroot, sniper drones, or skyrays leap immediately to mind) meaning all we can field is crisis suits if we want to stand a chance...

Personally I love the cat and mouse game that occurs with BA vs tau or mobile IG vs tau as units keep vying back and forth to get into a strike range

Guard against Tau have been some of the most enjoyable games I've had in 40K, I hope the new codex lives up to this.

lots of dice rolling . not the most fun of games , but there are less fun match ups in the world then tau.

I like the idea of playing against New Tau, because they really are a "house of cards" army. They can ignore cover, but they need their markerlights to do it. And lots of markerlights aren't cheap. Missilesides can be devastating, but they can drop models fast if you position your attacks well, and their damage output drops disproportionately quickly. Insta-deathing an Ethereal limits damage output and resiliency.

As mentioned, they can have trouble with AV13-14. They die in CC, and sacrificial or flank charges can be very effective.

In my opinion, New Tau encourage more interactive play than most other armies.

The amount of marker lights needed to ignore cover and help the aiming is expensive as crap. And usually vulnerable since its 36" which is short enough to prevent them from camping behind the gunline. Drones are the most durable one, and its only a 4+ save and since they sit high in the air its hard to give them anything but area terrain cover.

They should be the first target. Tau can function without markerlights but you hurt them drastically by taking them out. I can only think of a few units that really dont care that much, thats because BS3 with twinlinked still has a damn good chance to hit.

Besides negating cover or giving a SINGLE unit Gets Hot! if youre too close to that 1 model that causes it, what do they do to shut you down? Ignoring cover isnt THAT big unless your army depends uponi it (like my orks)

Also, it helps if you remember that 40k consists of more than just "meet at midfield, roll some dice, and see what happens". If you aren't expecting a game in which both players move forward and expose themselves to anything their opponent wants to do then you won't be disappointed when you face an army that uses alternative tactics to force a situation that is more to their advantage and you might even come prepared to counter it.

 Ailaros wrote:
What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

I've had a blast playing them with my SoB, both the old and the new Tau codex. They shoot a lot but I have no problems getting at them (except for the suits with that damn jetpack move). Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units if you can so they all can't shoot you, then start picking them off. Exorcists kill suits first, tanks second. Sisters try to wipe out their scoring units. Outflanking Dominions make short work of 1-2 tanks when they come in, then that flank starts to disintegrate. Easy pickings really.

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers. I don't know the stats of Tau backfield units but I'm guessing that deepstriking stormies with plasma guns will do some damage, and three of them will break up the backfield nicely.

OP, I do see where you're coming from. Tau can be very boring to play against, but only if your army is mundane. A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

I always have fun playing against Tau, they usually have some variety in their armies now. Not to mention the way their units work make it an interesting fight compared to other gunline armies.

Now IG? IG are the worst things I've played against, you'll see the same thing, they all play the same way. Not to mention unlike tau they still have their Top Tier goodies while playing, as well as being a completely boring gunline, not to mention it usually has been played by TFG from my experience.

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

Marbo can be hilarious against Tau. With the new rules fire warriors and Ethereals and even broadsides are going to be bunched together. Drop in behind the gunline and wack a a creamy pie plate when their not expecting it.

 Messy0 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

Marbo can be hilarious against Tau. With the new rules fire warriors and Ethereals and even broadsides are going to be bunched together. Drop in behind the gunline and wack a a creamy pie plate when their not expecting it.

Seeing as Tau have a good number of interceptor models. When he enters from Reserve he'll pretty much go *Splat* before he can toss said pieplate.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers.

but no IG army uses storm troopers they are bad , makes no sense to buy them if they are ok only against tau . taking marine in drop pods as ally would probably be better.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

you would have to run 2-3 and that would fix your army as a 5th ed mecha list , they would have to be armed with flamers too . there still would be a big problem of IG dudes being unable to survive as long out of transports as marines can . considering most armies are meq those units wouldnt realy help in most match ups . not to mention the fact that people would have to buy chimeras in the first place and most probably wouldnt want 3 of them .

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Messy0 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

Vets in Chimera's with plasma guns?

Marbo can be hilarious against Tau. With the new rules fire warriors and Ethereals and even broadsides are going to be bunched together. Drop in behind the gunline and wack a a creamy pie plate when their not expecting it.

Seeing as Tau have a good number of interceptor models. When he enters from Reserve he'll pretty much go *Splat* before he can toss said pieplate.

I may be wrong here, but Marbo has Stealth I think. So just put him in terrain or with models between him and the unit with Interceptor. That would make him more survivable.

As for having fun playing Tau, I can see where OP is coming from. My first army was Tau and both of my most common opponents at the time now have an almost irrational hatred of the Tau because they are so good and shutting your enemies army down and forcing him to play into your hands.

They are good, but not impossible to beat and as someone said above, their weakness now seems to be heavy armor. So, bring some Leman Russ tanks and smash those blue xenos! Wouldn't that be fun?

I can totally see were the OP is coming from as Ive yet to win against Tau with my Orks

Im currently switching up to my IG force and collecting Russes.

I also recommend using a Bastion against them as its a highly reliable form of protection for a large group of infantry AND..its more AV14 to deal with
Granted the amount of models that can fire out of it are limited but with guard those can be lascannons,Auto cannons even a Master of Ordinance.Then of course you can also man the HB on your main target while the other HB`s do opportunity auto fire.

Makumba wrote:

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers.

but no IG army uses storm troopers they are bad , makes no sense to buy them if they are ok only against tau . taking marine in drop pods as ally would probably be better.

That's absurd. If Storm Troopers weren't in the the IG codex with half of its army list being overpowered, they'd be considered one of the best units in the game.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Makumba wrote:

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers.

but no IG army uses storm troopers they are bad , makes no sense to buy them if they are ok only against tau . taking marine in drop pods as ally would probably be better.

That's absurd. If Storm Troopers weren't in the the IG codex with half of its army list being overpowered, they'd be considered one of the best units in the game.

Probably not, they're objectively mediocre at best. They pay an absurd amount of points for AP3 and a pistol, while aside from that they're Carapace Vets (and Carapace is already not cheap for what it does) with some special deployment rule. Aside from the extra S3 attack they fight like normal Guardsmen, they aren't much more durable than normal guardsmen, they aren't any more steadfast than normal guardsmen, they just get AP3 on S3 guns with blunt range, meaning they're trading casualties 1 for 1 against a Space Marine squad that's cheaper man for man.

Fun is relative. It hasn't been fun lately playing against Cronair or triple Heldrake lists, but I have endured.

Tau is the army that got me into 40k. I really enjoy their fluff and am fairly pleased with the new Codex. I haven't had this much fun making lists in a long time and figuring out what to buy next. I enjoy pickup games the most as I can field fluffy fun lists. But I do plan on making more competitive lists for FLGS tournaments to try and challenge the top players in my area.

DexKivuli wrote:In my opinion, New Tau encourage more interactive play than most other armies.

How?

BryllCream wrote:They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers... A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

Firstly, as mentioned, tau get interceptor with at least Ap4 weapons for practically free - not just in points cost, but in the fact that you don't need to make meaningful sacrifices to do it. Secondly, it's not like tau are plenty capable of breaking apart AV12 vehicles before they get a chance to do anything, and our AV14 vehicles don't have much long-range firepower, which, thirdly brings us to artillery. Two gunlines playing against each other is pretty much the most shallow way to play 40k, and thus, to me, the most boring and tedious.

Anyways, allow me to reiterate, I'm not asking how people beat tau. Winning against an army is a tactics discussion. I'm asking how do you have fun? Win or lose, why is it worthwhile to even unpack the minis?

To me, the only way that 40k is any different from yahtzee is that it has a bunch of rules that modify stuff. Sometimes you ignore armor saves, and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get to move at full speed and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you have weapons that can break open tanks, but some weapons can't, etc. etc. Because if it were just a straight dice rolling game, then what would be the point?

And that's my problem here. You can come up with a psychic defense army, but tau cast psychic powers without perils rolls, and you can't deny the witch against them. No matter how expensive they are, markerlights can always make at least a few things not have cover saves, which, given that much of their stuff is also jump pack units, means that terrain sort of doesn't matter. As mentioned, Tau are basically setting up a game where you have to pretend like all of the rules between page 20 and 28 just don't exist.

Fun for me is getting to actually do stuff. Making use out of the rules, and not just simply rolling dice. I'd much, much rather lose badly to an army where I at least got to shoot back at my opponent's stuff because they weren't always out of LOS when it was time to shoot back, or who crushed me in both shooting and assault than to win a game against a gunline dedicated to making the game more shallow.

For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game, and thanks to being Imperial, more units from the expanded army lists that cover every other concievable option (I'm looking at you Sabers and Breaching Drills).

It's all a matter of perspective.

As an aside, Tyranids break just as many rules of the paradigm, just rules that matter less to IG.

But I'm not asking about codex power, or how to break stuff.

I'd certainly agree that leafblowers are tedious and awful to play against as well. But that's just because they're gunlines.

Now take a gunline and add to it a bunch of stuff that isn't just powerful against anti-gunline tactics, but that stops you from even doing anything against them.

You'd get a game where they unpack their minis and roll dice, and you unpack your minis and then pack them back up again and roll a few dice when your opponent's special rules allow you to roll them.

 Ailaros wrote:

You'd get a game where they unpack their minis and roll dice, and you unpack your minis and then pack them back up again and roll a few dice when your opponent's special rules allow you to roll them.

This is how I feel playing against IG.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game, and thanks to being Imperial, more units from the expanded army lists that cover every other concievable option (I'm looking at you Sabers and Breaching Drills).

It's all a matter of perspective.

As an aside, Tyranids break just as many rules of the paradigm, just rules that matter less to IG.

I think you're missing the OP's point. It's not about being overpowered. Both tau and IG can be beaten. It's the fact that the tau take all thought out of the game. There's no point in seeking cover saves. There's no point in outflanking. Tau make multiple phases of the game irrelevant.

The OP even said that he doesn't mind losing as long as the decisions of positioning and movement had meaning.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game,

While some of this is true in a sense, they likely aren't all true at once in any one list. The "battle tanks disguised as transports" is rather silly, Chimeras aren't exactly great units in 6th edition (I've stopped running them altogether) and aren't anything near battle tank status, IG infantry are anything but unbreakable unless you give up a lot of flexibility and sink a lot into making them roughly on par with SM's sporting ATSKNF (which still isn't unbreakable), and Leman Russ tanks aren't anything special in regards to durability other than that they've got AV14 frontal armor (no different than a Battlewagon or Land Raider) which while strong is not impervious.

and thanks to being Imperial, more units from the expanded army lists that cover every other concievable option (I'm looking at you Sabers and Breaching Drills).

One may want to check out the current rules on the breaching drills, they got nerfed to be nigh unusable in the IA Volume 1 re-release, as their blast got made smaller and less powerful and if anything's left after it comes up (it no longer moves units) it causes a mishap with a -2 modifier (meaning 50/50 chance to destroy) and takes the follow up squad with it now.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
For those of us on the low end of the totem pole power wise, you could ask yourself the same question about Imperial Guard.

They have a seemingly unbreakable and unlimited amount of infantry, ridiculously undercosted batle tanks disguised as "transports", nearly impervious to shooting bigger tanks, objectively the best fliers in the game,

While some of this is true in a sense, they likely aren't all true at once in any one list.

Oh, I agree. My point was you can say such things about any army. It's a matter of perspective.

Tau can't do all those things either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bogalubov wrote:

The OP even said that he doesn't mind losing as long as the decisions of positioning and movement had meaning.

Those things don't lose meaning, they become even more important.

I think its getting a bit melodramatic in here... Early Warning Overrides are nice, but you do have to take a "meaningful sacrifice" as each unit type has limited slots for support equipment, and there is more than 1 useful thing to put in each slot.

Tau are effectively the extreme end of the CC spectrum and therefore must shoot things to death. On the other hand, if you actually get anything into combat with them they lose bigtime. Not only is a full squad of FWs likely to run away from and get overrun by only 2 or 3 CC troops, but while they're in combat getting whittled down a relatively large portion of the army shooting effectiveness has gone. In other armies the balance between CC and shooting is a bit more even and there are usually some pretty hard hitting CC options to use as countercharge.

Overwatch is still of marginal effectiveness and if you roll up a flank, then you still limit the amount of Tau units shooting at you. If the Tau army bunches up to maximise the overwatch benefit then they are massively vulnerable to blasts and templates, which are readily available to all armies, even CC armies.

In terms of ignoring cover, you need a hell of a lot of markerlights to allow 1 or 2 units to take this benefit, and if a unit is only firing markerlights its not actually doing any damage. This boils down to a Tau army being pretty much optimised to focus on one target at a time. Sure the targeted unit is likely to evaporate, so go for MSUs and rush as much as possible forward at a time.

I remember feeling very frustrated in earlier editions about the power of close combat armies. One of my first Tau games saw a Death Company squad move about 120" in one game and massacre 2/3rds of my army by consolidating into nearby units. however, once you get used to the tactics required to take a particular army down, the balance restores itself.

bogalubov wrote:I think you're missing the OP's point. It's not about being overpowered. Both tau and IG can be beaten. It's the fact that the tau take all thought out of the game. There's no point in seeking cover saves. There's no point in outflanking. Tau make multiple phases of the game irrelevant.

The OP even said that he doesn't mind losing as long as the decisions of positioning and movement had meaning.

Exactly.

I mean, at least against a guard gunline, they're really vulnerable against assault armies, and fast armies (especially deepstrikers and outflankers). They've got tanks, while are very vulnerable to large blast spam, rather than monstrous creatures, which sort of just ignore them. Their stuff is still in line of sight, so you can still shoot them, and only two serious artillery pieces can shoot over cover, but neither of them are good against vehicles (or, in the case of the basilisk, much of anything).

Gunlines are boring to play against. No doubt. At least against a guard gunline you get to DO stuff.

And really, I think this is a meta shift. Leafblowers were so good, that the codices (and rules editions) after it had to get progressively better at breaking up gunlines. This, however, has apparently caused a backlash amongst people who apparently WANT gunlines.

For example, you can beat a gunline by deepstriking, so they made tau be able to intercept things easily and without penalty. You can beat a gunline with fast units, so they gave tau long range guns that ignore cover (both the usual kind, and jink saves). You can beat gunlines with close combat, so they gave tau speedbump units while the whole army gets to overwatch against them when they try and assault.

But, really, it's not just a matter of power. Adding a newer, better gunline army is crappy, but not a dealbreaker. It's the WAY they constructed it. If the only way to have a chance to do anything against a gunline is to do nothing by bringing a gunline, then I really don't get the point of it all. At least, against Tau.

DarknessEternal wrote:

bogalubov wrote:The OP even said that he doesn't mind losing as long as the decisions of positioning and movement had meaning.

Those things don't lose meaning, they become even more important.

Why?

What is the point of movement vis a vis terrain if your opponent is just going to ignore it? You might as well be playing on a blank table. What is the point of your movement if your opponent is always in range with their guns, but can then scoot away after they're done shooting to be out of range of yours?

I think bogalubov said it best when he said it makes the game more thoughtless. You use fewer rules, have fewer inroads for strategy, and things become a lot more obvious.

Flinty wrote:Tau are effectively the extreme end of the CC spectrum and therefore must shoot things to death. On the other hand, if you actually get anything into combat with them they lose bigtime.

But they don't. You rush in, eat an entire army of overwatch, then kill a single unit in an MSU army (so, not accomplishing much), and then you get shot at by said entire other shooty army again with all the attending benefits.

CC is already pretty much a joke in 6th ed to begin with, but against Tau it's straight-up pointless.

It's only a drawback if it's a serious liability, which CC isn't, in this case.

Flinty wrote:In terms of ignoring cover, you need a hell of a lot of markerlights to allow 1 or 2 units to take this benefit, and if a unit is only firing markerlights its not actually doing any damage.

So, in every game I've seen at my store so far, it was a non-challenge to get at least two markerlights on at least two different units. Yeah, those firewarriors didn't get to shoot (at targets they couldn't hurt anyways), but once the markerlights are done, then the riptides and broadsides throw their high-strength, low-ap shots at them and just wipe them off the board.

You can't exactly advance against an army that gets to pick off your closest few units for free every turn.

I mean, last night I saw a game against ravenwing. The closest bikes never got to use a jink save, and Tau have plenty of Ap2 and Ap3 weapons. After the SECOND round of Tau shooting, the ravenwing player had sammael and just a couple of bikes on the table. The bikes could either repeat that travesty on the bottom of their turn 2, or charge in. They did. Only Sammael was left after overwatch fire from everything.

The entire game for him was pretty much over before his second player turn, and it WAS over before his third. Sammael killed some pathfinders and was then riptide+broadside+pulse weaponed to death.

In this case the fact that he was fast didn't matter, because everything was always in range. The fact that he had jink saves didn't matter, because a combination of markerlights and volume of fire made it irrelevant. The fact that he could get into close combat quickly was pointless because he was all but killed by overwatch, and then, after running into a speedbump, was tabled.

I can't even begin to imagine what a fun game for a ravenwing player would look like against Tau.

If you think CC is a joke then you are doing it wrong. Sorry but it still decides an awful lot of games.

The less models you have, the more frustrating playing tau will be. I lost 10 models on overwatch. As a marine player, I cry. As an ork player, I laugh and chop me up some sushi.

The point i'm making is, every army has it's rock-paper-scissors equivalent. You might not like playing tau with your army, and tau won't like playing a super-quick assault army with little to no vehicles like daemons.

Tau just happens to be the scissors to your paper.

 Ailaros wrote:

Flinty wrote:Tau are effectively the extreme end of the CC spectrum and therefore must shoot things to death. On the other hand, if you actually get anything into combat with them they lose bigtime.

But they don't. You rush in, eat an entire army of overwatch,

That's one of the major things people are having trouble wrapping their heads around; it's a paradigm shift.

You can't eat Tau in assault with one unit. They welcome your deathstar. If you want to assault Tau, you have to assault as an army.

Tau kill one unit at a time because of markerlights, but everyone has it in their head that it's just one unit doing it. It's multiple units of fire, just most of those units did no actual damage. When you fire 3 units at one, don't you expect that one to die? It's a semantic difference, not a practical one.

Tau upset the paradigm, and people react poorly to change.

All of your examples about "closest units" is the problem. Make your army all the closest units. Then your only losing as many as you would have before and all these mysterious Tau magical abilities function exactly the same as everyone else's.

There's a certain level of irony here...

For me, IG are the least amount of fun to play against. Reinforced gunline with a bunch of suicide units that you just have to take their firepower and weather it before you can act against it, heavy arty that just sits back and shells everything.

Maybe this is just payback? Also, you're seeing mountains for mole hills. IG have tons of 36"+ range weapons. The stuff that ignores cover (besides markerlights, which are only 36" range) is all sub 30". I'd think Tau hate IG games. You just sit their and shell them with everything. You can build almost any type of army and still out gun them.

By playin a speedy ork army.

 Lobukia wrote:
Also, you're seeing mountains for mole hills. IG have tons of 36"+ range weapons.

In particular, they have 36"+ range weapons that also ignore cover. They've had this for like 6 years now, it's still a mystery why it's considered so bad.

Kill their markerlights, then their suits, then you win the game. Seriously it's not that hard, especially as guard.

Once again, I don't care about beating Tau. That's not the point.

It's not a matter of winning a game, but to have any reasonable chance to get to participate in it at all. Without needing to either play tau, or play a gunline yourself.

With all due respect to the OP, it seems like he's made up his mind that Tau are boring to play against; nothing anyone says in this thread is going to change his mind. The thread seems more an attempt at a rant (which is perfectly fine by me) than a genuine request for ideas.

wfischer wrote:
With all due respect to the OP, it seems like he's made up his mind that Tau are boring to play against; nothing anyone says in this thread is going to change his mind. The thread seems more an attempt at a rant (which is perfectly fine by me) than a genuine request for ideas.

This.

I don't know why people continue to argue this, OP has obviously made up his mind that Tau make everything pointless and no amount of trivial details like "facts" will convince him otherwise.

To the OP: if you really believe that gaining cover saves is the end-all way to have fun in this game, then you won't have fun playing versus Tau.

On the other hand, cover saves are only one way that terrain can be used. You can deny them shots altogether. Interceptor only has value if you intend to bring units in from reserve.

Playing against any gunline is a bit like solving a puzzle. The gunline player sets up the puzzle, and you have to figure out how to crack it. There's always a way though. The thing is, the way to crack Tau isn't the same way that you crack guard. The tricks you use against guard gunlines are the exact ones that Tau have the tools to defend against. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways to solve the puzzle.

If solving gunline puzzles isn't something you enjoy, well, then you're right, you won't have that much fun versus Tau. But to say there's no interaction is false. It's just that much of that interaction is front-loaded into the deployment phase, and the game watches it unfold.

I've played against Tau as IG and DA for a long time now (best friend plays Tau), and I have to say it has been a GREAT way for me to learn about a unit's survivability and the best way to get it into combat.

While they have some good AT weapons, they definitely can't handle a ton of AV14, and artillery is great to bombard their troops into oblivion since their pulse rifles destroy guardsmen.

Pretty much every unit in the guard codex is a threat to one or more Tau units, making their target priority pretty tough.

Oh, and Ailaros, I know you've been using the HH a fair amount lately. Tau hate them.

OP, I feel like I'm about to get into a similar situation with a good buddy of mine. His main armies are chaos daemons and tau. I've always hated playing against daemons. I always win, but the games are just so boring. Tau on the other hand was always fun. I had to choose my targets wisely, and had to think about how to avoid the nasty end of a broadside barrel.

Since the new codex came out, said buddy has been constantly telling me about how the new tau ignores covers, blasts things coming in from reserves, has these non perils powers, etc. etc. I truly am dreading the upcoming game. Not from a win or lose standpoint, as like I've said I've had miserable victories, while also having awesome losses. I dunno, but for some reason the armies over the past year and a half or so have really started to kill my enthusiasm for the game.

 BryllCream wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers. I don't know the stats of Tau backfield units but I'm guessing that deepstriking stormies with plasma guns will do some damage, and three of them will break up the backfield nicely.

OP, I do see where you're coming from. Tau can be very boring to play against, but only if your army is mundane. A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

Ive had DS stormies with straight up hotshot lasguns in my backfield..that ap3 chewed through my backfield FW objective squad and then at half a crisis team...

I wait for the day stealth suits can take plasma guns...soooooo expensive but soooooooo good.

The thread started has an interesting take. I had never ever really heard of anyone not liking to play against them. They aren't uber competitive in most peoples eyes and people always liketo tell me how "brave" I am for taking them to a tourney.

I like it when they say those things...

But what I thought was interesting about this post was that it addressed another issue: the ABLATIVE nature of the Tau. Essential, as in marial arts, we kind of use your strength against you (and that is reflected in the Kau'yon way of fighting) or we do indeed sort of have tools if we're willing to use them, as counters to typical; lists.

I thought about it and he's not wrong. We dont have great stats (and thats being kind), we rely entirely on volume of fire...in an army...that is easy to whittle most of the time. Seems like a recipe for disaster when you say that out loud. The Tau forces rely on one another so they dont just suffer for the loss of firepower when some die, butthey also suffer the loss of the synergy which makes them dangerous, as that erodes during the game.

So Tau sit on a precarious perch most of the time, trying to win against forces that are very clearly superior in most ways, and trying not to die too quickly so they can keep helping outtheir buddies (Pathfinders and the like gotta watch their back with 5+ saves now).

But it surprises me that an army that can sort of play an atypical style of ablation and aggresive defense would elicit such a reaction. I mean up til now they were often on defense but more mobile than IG gunlines. More fun to play than an IG gunline too.

Like I say, no one has ever really expressed a dislike for playing against them. They see it as a potential win in the making before I even roll for Warlord Traits and probably after also.

The new codex is going to erase some smugness from its opponents I assure you. But being unfun to oppose? hmm...

I understand your sentiments Ailaros, I think the problems you're referring to is what I'd call rules bloat. 40k is increasingly becoming a game where you sit down, unpack your minis, compare special rules and whoever has the better ones wins. For example, there are some armies that other armies simply cannot win against (if both sides are using competitive lists) and I think that its a state reflection of the game we're playing that sometimes its better I don't even get my army out.

My secret is using cadbury mini eggs as marker light tokens; when your army produces candy for the opponent to eat, the cheese is hard to smell.

 EmilCrane wrote:
I understand your sentiments Ailaros, I think the problems you're referring to is what I'd call rules bloat. 40k is increasingly becoming a game where you sit down, unpack your minis, compare special rules and whoever has the better ones wins. For example, there are some armies that other armies simply cannot win against (if both sides are using competitive lists) and I think that its a state reflection of the game we're playing that sometimes its better I don't even get my army out.

Not buying.

 Jancoran wrote:

 EmilCrane wrote:
I understand your sentiments Ailaros, I think the problems you're referring to is what I'd call rules bloat. 40k is increasingly becoming a game where you sit down, unpack your minis, compare special rules and whoever has the better ones wins. For example, there are some armies that other armies simply cannot win against (if both sides are using competitive lists) and I think that its a state reflection of the game we're playing that sometimes its better I don't even get my army out.

Not buying.

I'm not complaining about Tau per se here, actually I'm thinking of tyranids vs space marines. A good tyranid player will never lose to space marines (especially blood angels)

 dbsamurai wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers. I don't know the stats of Tau backfield units but I'm guessing that deepstriking stormies with plasma guns will do some damage, and three of them will break up the backfield nicely.

OP, I do see where you're coming from. Tau can be very boring to play against, but only if your army is mundane. A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

Ive had DS stormies with straight up hotshot lasguns in my backfield..that ap3 chewed through my backfield FW objective squad and then at half a crisis team...

I wait for the day stealth suits can take plasma guns...soooooo expensive but soooooooo good.

I wait for the day they had rail rifles. They would have fitted in perfectly with their 4th or 5th ed rules since they can't be seen at that range, but alas. Who would give the stealth units sniper rifles?

I wish my main opponent would pick Tau up again. He had an awesome Tau army in 3rd edition, but got rid of it when he got a hankering for power armour.

Now, he plays a Dark Eldar Wych army, and while fun to play against, is very similar in playstyle to my Tyranids. Fast moving and aggressive, only different in that its strong in melee while my Tyranids are strong at close range shooting.

Fighting a slower, more shooting focused army like Tau would be a fun break. And give me a reason to buy a few Biovores and a Mawloc.

Why can't I have fun playing Nidzilla versus Grey Knights? Ugh 40k sucks.

Well, I suppose you could be an arse about it and just bring a "Tide" list. Bunch of conscripts. Slow play your Tau opponent til he dies of boredom. Then burn all his models.

I always think this about gunlines. Any gun line. Tau, Space Marines, Imperial Guard. I've learned to just suck it up and play the game. I'll latch on to small little pieces of the battle that interest me, like close assaults or my few outflanking units digging into a soft and squishy backfield unit. That'll usually hold me over as I wait for the hour long shooting phase to conclude.

Aliaros, I feel your frustration. There's definitely armies that are fun to play against, and there's ones that are just a total pain in the butt. I feel about demons a lot like you do about Tau - doesn't matter what I do, I have to try and chew through 45 wounds of T5 before his bikes and DP and everything else hit my lines. And I've got *maybe* 1 turn to do it in, 2 if I'm lucky.

As a Tau player, I can understand that same kind of frustration. I despise gunline Tau with a passion, but they do a damn good job of it, there's no denying it. I feel that - even with the limits you generally place on yourself as far as list construction - there's easily ways to make it more fun.

It seems, based on what you've mentioned so far, that you're going up against Riptides with EWO and Ion Accelerators, probably 2-3 units of Markerlights, lots of FWs, and probably a couple Hammerheads. Given what I've seen of your playstyle, I'm willing to bet you're using a couple LR variants, some foot platoons / PCS / CCS, maybe some light armor. I'd suggest running 2 squadrons of LR variants, with a battery of artillery in the backfield. The strategy, then, would be to advance your infantry behind a wall of LRs, while your artillery lays waste to that squishy sushi behind his Aegis. One you're close enough, FRFSRF to your heart's content. You should be able to get enough plasma in range to take care of the Riptides and Hammerheads. Markerlights only have a 36" range, so camo netted artillery in ruins / behind an aegis should be relatively safe, especially if you can block LOS to it with your LRs at the same time. Other options include your old-school Send In The Next Wave conscript blobs, since killing those by the dozen doesn't matter. Even Deep Strikers are an option, assuming you're willing to eat a BS3 S8 pie plate and plan your drops accordingly (i.e. out of LOS / into cover / danger close to the Tau lines).

This would let you play your foot / tank lists, force your opponent to break up his gunline, and give you a reasonable chance of making the game interesting.

In short after far too many words, I feel that you have the tools to make it a more interesting game already. It's a matter of adjusting to a new meta, where cover isn't safe anymore, and you need to straight up block LOS to keep things from harm. Fortunately, as Guard, you've got AV14 options for that, where a lot of other armies don't. Guard have a lot of good counters for Tau, even without using Vendettas (which I personally feel are suboptimal against Tau) or trying to MechVet rush.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, I've been playing on and off again since 4th edition, so this is hardly new, but as they've got a new codex, I've found myself playing against Tau more frequently. I just played another game against them tonight, and it struck me, in all these years, I don't think I've ever had fun playing against a Tau army. Not once.

And the more I think about it, the less it's surprising, as this particular army for some time now has been shutting down your opponent's ability to do things as its primary style, but it seems even more egregious with the current codex.

For example, why does it matter how I move or deploy if my opponent's guns are basically always in range, and they basically always ignore cover now? What's the point of bringing high-mobility options when so many things get interceptor, and come with secondary weapons so they still get to shoot the next turn anyways? What's the point of the assault phase when you can eat an entire army of overwatch fire every time you charge? What's the point of the shooting phase if you stuff is either not in range, because their stuff has longer range and/or is more mobile, and because your opponents get to use the shooting phase but you don't, thanks to MSM and LOS-blocking terrain.

And don't get me wrong, it's not that Tau are just overpowered or anything. I can handle strong armies. It's more that I don't even want to win against Tau if it means I have to suffer through playing a game against them. It just feels like the special rules of this army have traditionally, and now moreso, just cheapen so much of the game that it's rather difficult to see it as more than my opponent doing virtually nothing (not likely moving that much, and never assaulting), and spending their time preventing me from doing virtually anything, what with making so many of my potential decisions irrelevant. Really, I might as well just watch someone play yahtzee with themselves.

And so this thread is in the general forum not because I need advice for how to beat Tau armies. What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

Or should I just take a little break until the next codex comes out and I can finally get some non-tau opponents to play against again?

Play it the Russian way, acknowledge that they will get favorable kill ratios. But don't give a single feth because you have more bodies than their space-utilitarianist arses have bullets. Few things are more satisfying than watching a Tau army try to dam the flow of my Tyranid swarm before the wall breaches and unleashes the flood. It's doubly fun when I'm using my Soviet style painted Tyranids, and well worth the odd looks people see me place a tyranid army painted red with a yellow hammer and sickle.

It's doubly worth the odd looks when they ask why the hell my Swarmlord has a Ushanka and I explain to them that Hive Fleet Babushka ate a ship with Lenin in it some time ago, and all became communist and roar in stereotypical Russian accents.

Hilarious.

Think about frying fish, or making some sushi. Then every dead fishman will make you laugh at least on the inside.

For me, it's often not the army but the opponent who makes it fun for me. If I have to actively think in order to pull off a victory, then it has been a fun game. If all in all it's too straightforward, then I get bored. My brother plays Tau (and is relatively new to 40k, only starting to play a wee bit before the release of 6th Ed), and the first few games we played, steamroll. But with time he understood his Tau better, and became more crafty and cunning making it more of a challenge for me to crush him. Frankly, with the new codex, I'm looking forward to battling him, seeing what new challenges he'll bring to the table and I'm always curious if he'll finally pull off a victory. The challenge is fun. Without it, this game is a bore.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
Think about frying fish, or making some sushi. Then every dead fishman will make you laugh at least on the inside.

I never got the fish thing with tau, doubly so since they lived on a hot planet. So they have no nose. They still look closer to humans than any fish. fish heads are just too dam long.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

You'd get a game where they unpack their minis and roll dice, and you unpack your minis and then pack them back up again and roll a few dice when your opponent's special rules allow you to roll them.

This is how I feel playing against IG.

Second.

Try it with some more LOS blocking terrain. We actually almost always have a big mountain in the middle of the board in most matches and it's not about gaining cover saves, it's much more about hiding your models completely and competing for proper fire lanes.

Incidentially, tried a daemons flying circus vs tau. Said mountain denies anything really effective getting into a fire ark on turn 1. Closed to assault by turn 2. Tabled tau by turn 5. Lost a blood thirster by the turn 2, but the 3 daemon princes with combination of iron arm/ warpspeed, endurance, life leech really eats suits alive along with lots of other infantry through multi-charging. Smash attacking to half your attacks to try and stay locked in combat helps.

As others have pointed above, vs a gunline is literally a puzzle box. Move your pieces to deny LOS completely. Wipe out a flank and pin others in place. While all your fears of army wide overwatch seems scary, it's really not that great. Well maybe not with 3+ armor saves and reroll 1's as tzeentch daemon princes and T5 lol. Just take out longshot hammerheads and profit.

If you don't enjoy puzzles or have any LOS blocking terrain, (which may explain your biggest issues) then ya, you probably won't enjoy fighting gunlines in general. Incidentially I'd have to wonder why play guard?

You are just as apt to build the puzzle but don't like people solving it?

 Ailaros wrote:
So, I've been playing on and off again since 4th edition, so this is hardly new, but as they've got a new codex, I've found myself playing against Tau more frequently. I just played another game against them tonight, and it struck me, in all these years, I don't think I've ever had fun playing against a Tau army. Not once.

And the more I think about it, the less it's surprising, as this particular army for some time now has been shutting down your opponent's ability to do things as its primary style, but it seems even more egregious with the current codex.

For example, why does it matter how I move or deploy if my opponent's guns are basically always in range, and they basically always ignore cover now? What's the point of bringing high-mobility options when so many things get interceptor, and come with secondary weapons so they still get to shoot the next turn anyways? What's the point of the assault phase when you can eat an entire army of overwatch fire every time you charge? What's the point of the shooting phase if you stuff is either not in range, because their stuff has longer range and/or is more mobile, and because your opponents get to use the shooting phase but you don't, thanks to MSM and LOS-blocking terrain.

And don't get me wrong, it's not that Tau are just overpowered or anything. I can handle strong armies. It's more that I don't even want to win against Tau if it means I have to suffer through playing a game against them. It just feels like the special rules of this army have traditionally, and now moreso, just cheapen so much of the game that it's rather difficult to see it as more than my opponent doing virtually nothing (not likely moving that much, and never assaulting), and spending their time preventing me from doing virtually anything, what with making so many of my potential decisions irrelevant. Really, I might as well just watch someone play yahtzee with themselves.

And so this thread is in the general forum not because I need advice for how to beat Tau armies. What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

Or should I just take a little break until the next codex comes out and I can finally get some non-tau opponents to play against again?

I don't want to sound mean to you or anything but I have to tell you that the Army you have been running for years does the exact same thing to Eldar armies that you are complaining about Tau doing to Imperial Guard.

For years now I have watched as Imperial Guard armies just tear Eldar into tiny little shreds by not allowing them to do anything at all.

Ig outrange Eldar by a long margin. The main tactic has been to punch the Eldar vehicles out of the sky (easy as pie with autocannon spam), then throw a cover ignoring AP 4 long ranged weapon on the survivors who stumble out of the blown up Wave Serpent and pretty much kill every single member of the squad.

If I happened to get anyone in close combat with anyone from an IG army it didn't matter either. The IG players would either feed a squad to my unit, wait for the squad to die, then light the close combat squad up with so much firepower that they had no hope of survival, or it would be a blob squad where attrition would just see my Eldar models die to the overwhelming number of attacks while the IG player just smacked my Eldar down with tons of power weapons on sergeants.

If that were happening to you it wouldn't sound like a lot of fun to play against would it?

But I finally came to realize that while I didn't think it was very fun, it was just the way the IG play. So I decided to think about things in a different way. I decided that no matter how many IG players I had to go against (at least 5 different players in my area), I was going to challenge myself to destroying their armies using everything at my disposal. So I started having fun picking new and unusual units for my Eldar to do the job. By challenging myself to destroying the IG, I have learned the fun of playing against armies like that. To me the fun is now in seeing how many different builds do against them. It is using unusual tactics that aren't normal for Eldar and seeing how the IG players react.

It has brought more enjoyment for me when playing them than I was having. Maybe a re-think is in order. After all, your opponent has no control over what you find fun. That's something you have to decide for yourself and no one else can make that decision for you.

After playing the new Tau I see where you are coming from. My orcs TAC list which had two dakka jets, two squads of 10 lootas and an aegis just folded the aegis was useless (talk about waste of 100 points) as were the dakka jets 1 squad of lootas died to one salvo of missiles and the others died to cover ignoring los ignoring shots no marker light needed. Suits dropped in and melta killed vehicles and flamed units (he had an assasin as well which popped out and flamed more.) Game really felt like terrain and positioning were pointless might as well have had a flat empty table. Actually flat and empty table might have helped my side as it would have allowed for faster closing in.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, I've been playing on and off again since 4th edition, so this is hardly new, but as they've got a new codex, I've found myself playing against Tau more frequently. I just played another game against them tonight, and it struck me, in all these years, I don't think I've ever had fun playing against a Tau army. Not once.

And the more I think about it, the less it's surprising, as this particular army for some time now has been shutting down your opponent's ability to do things as its primary style, but it seems even more egregious with the current codex.

For example, why does it matter how I move or deploy if my opponent's guns are basically always in range, and they basically always ignore cover now? What's the point of bringing high-mobility options when so many things get interceptor, and come with secondary weapons so they still get to shoot the next turn anyways? What's the point of the assault phase when you can eat an entire army of overwatch fire every time you charge? What's the point of the shooting phase if you stuff is either not in range, because their stuff has longer range and/or is more mobile, and because your opponents get to use the shooting phase but you don't, thanks to MSM and LOS-blocking terrain.

And don't get me wrong, it's not that Tau are just overpowered or anything. I can handle strong armies. It's more that I don't even want to win against Tau if it means I have to suffer through playing a game against them. It just feels like the special rules of this army have traditionally, and now moreso, just cheapen so much of the game that it's rather difficult to see it as more than my opponent doing virtually nothing (not likely moving that much, and never assaulting), and spending their time preventing me from doing virtually anything, what with making so many of my potential decisions irrelevant. Really, I might as well just watch someone play yahtzee with themselves.

And so this thread is in the general forum not because I need advice for how to beat Tau armies. What I want to know is how it's possible to have a game that's... well... a game against this particular army. How do you have fun against an army whose special rules strip what little strategy 40k has right out of the game?

Or should I just take a little break until the next codex comes out and I can finally get some non-tau opponents to play against again?

I have felt the same way about tank heavy IG since 3rd edition.

When I first started playing, I had a nearly all cc khorne demon/berzerker army. Playing against IG and its abundance of large blasts was not fun.

I'll bet there are people that feel the same way about every army.

Lots of armies sit and shoot. IG usually love it. Lots of GK armies sit and shoot as well. I don't think Tau are alone. JSJ is nice, but lots of units such as: FW, Broadsides and Tanks don't have it. So they can't move out of range. You can close on Tau pretty easily, that is why IMO they require strong bubble-wrapping.

1.)Start playing CSM, run plenty of khorne units.
2.)run many rhinos, defilers, land raiders, give them all Dirge casters.
3.) watch Tau cry since now they dont get any overwatch if one is within 6"
4.)????????????
5.) PROFIT

I recently played against Tau with Sisters. I turtled the Heavy Support slot behind my Aegis (1x Retributors w/ a Quad gun, 2x Exorcist) and then crammed ALL THE SISTERS down his throat turn one.

I went first, scouted up dominions, dumped them out at his gun line, lit up his commander's squad (it was night fightning) and then proceeding to pump every S8 shot I had in my army at it. The rest of the stuff did flat out moves. His command squad had a suit and a drone left, commander was dead.

I then started causing havok with 30 sisters and a battle conclave in his front ranks... and a Seraphim squad that deep struck inside a building lower level, obscuring them from a nasty riptide pie plate.

The Sisters withstood the volleys of pulse fire and started krak grenading the tanks. The battle conclave was a single Crusader, single DCA, and Uriah left after the torrent of fire and that alone killed an entire pathfinder squad in CC. My Seraphim melted pathfinder squads and then beatdown the Riptide that was locked in CC with my Sister Superior (it had already vaporized one squad and was 9/10s done with another!). My Seraphim ripped it apart with melta bombs and punching it to death! XD

It was an epic, bloody battle. I think you should try something unconventional with IG. Give the opposing player some super hard scrutiny. Go for the Ethereal first, if they have one. Breaking that Ld10 bubble will be massive!

The one time i really had fun was when I played Big Guns Never Tire as space marines. We had most of the objectives in the middle of the bord, on the extreme left. He had a mainly a crisis suit army, and I had some tanks and termies for my punch. The deepstrike and counter-thrusts resulted in a very see-saw game that ultimately resulted in a draw due to my LR camping on the middle objective.. Crisis armies are alot more entertaining to fight than gunlines

Use LOS-blocking terrain. Every problem with unfun gunline armies can pretty much be solved by having 1-3 good-sized LOS-blocking pieces of terrain somewhere near midfield.

My major issue is Tau is that it's simply a boring match up.

I play Necron and they just use me as a punching bag for most of the game if I try and move against them.

So far they have all deployed deep in their backfield and simply stayed put for the entirety of the match - sometimes jockeying a few units around.

Stand and shoot. Stand and shoot. Stand and shoot. It seems a bit boring to me. Can't hide the Wraiths - they're too big and once you charge them you get lit up like a Christmas tree.

So what do I do? How do I play a good game versus Tau? Not give them their obligatory 1-3 turns of simply shooting me while I advance. I turtle. I don't move and I hide every little thing I can from them and then come turn 4 I let all my Night Scythes come in and setup on objectives - meanwhile my Wraiths are finally close enough to charge in.

To me, it makes for a bit of a boring stalemate. As a mid range army fielding a bunch of melee units (Wraiths) I simply cannot match the ranged firepower, cannot abuse Night Fighting to my advantage, and my melee gets obliterated before it hits.

I'm going to keep playing the Tau - I don't gripe much during the actual games... it's just an annoyance I've had - I'll just bring Templates next time.

 Ascalam wrote:
I run horde orks.

They point at tau and larf

Granted not many tend to be standing sometimes to be enjoying that post battle larf, but it can be fun to see how many will survive long enough to get stuck in ...

My Friend plays tau (although we havnt played with the new dex yet) and everytime I go green tide he just keeps backing up and kiting me with fire warriors while shooting sub munition rounds out of his hammerhead. I can barely win in some cases, I would imagine that his strategy is even more powerful with the new dex....how would do I even get to him?

He can only back up so far, and can only fire so many pieplates a turn. Running 200+ orks at him full out should mean that enough will get through to cause some damage...

Usually i lose about half my boyz before i reach my usual Tau enemy's lines, as he backs up to his board edge while shooting the hell out of them. The other half then has the tau boxed in with nowhere to go, and can start krumping.

Of course sometimes his every pieplate is on target and i've not gotten my units properly spaced out, and then it will be a lot fewer orks that get through

 Budikah wrote:


My major issue is Tau is that it's simply a boring match up.

So far they have all deployed deep in their backfield and simply stayed put for the entirety of the match - sometimes jockeying a few units around.

Stand and shoot. Stand and shoot. Stand and shoot. It seems a bit boring to me. C.

Losing can be "boring". I guess. But what I will say is that Tau do NOT have to play stagnant to win. If they were VERY active and VERY mobile like mine, would you mind losing to them?

I promise you, not all Tau players play this way. Lots of IG are guilty of the same though and I never heard anyone make an especially big deal out of that. It isn't that they CANT play mobile and some do.

So maybe its the player thats boring. Not the army.

I think some valid points have been made so far. (A change of play style can help, a change of perception can help, etc, etc.) But, it's entirely possible that NOTHING is going to help.

I think that it's completely reasonable to find losing in a certain way to be unfun. (Or even winning in a certain way.) Personally, I can't stand to face Tyranids. I hate them with an undying passion. It doesn't seem far-fetched to me that someone could find the process of playing against an army that uses a Tau playstyle to be very unenjoyable.

I think at that point it becomes about damage mitigation. Don't let it turn you into a crappy person. If you come up against them in a tourney, don't throw the game or complain about their army. If a new player shows up to your club, then don't exclude him just because of his army. That being said, don't feel pressured to play friendly games against people who have other options, or who know you don't want to play against their Tau army.

You might want to seek alternatives. Personally, against power-house armies I feel I can't beat, or won't enjoy playing, I like to hamstring myself. If it's a 2000 point game, I will only field 1500 points. That way I'm not losing to the army I hate, I'm gaining valuable experience on how to work against the odds. (Like training at a hundred times normal gravity!) Since I know I was (probably) not going to win anyway, it takes a lot of the sting out.

In any event, I hope that you find serenity with the Tau, or at least that your local gaming scene comes to detest them as much as you do.

I play against Tau more than any other army, and have done so for years (best friend plays Tau). It's almost always guaranteed to be a bitter, bloody fight (which is good fun imo). I play aggressive, but also try to be surgical. If you hide (or try to) most of the game and then make last minute grabs, it's going to be boring...and that can be said of most any match up. Dive in, go for broke, sling some dice, and gleefully watch the (plastic) bodies fly on both sides.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Use LOS-blocking terrain. Every problem with unfun gunline armies can pretty much be solved by having 1-3 good-sized LOS-blocking pieces of terrain somewhere near midfield.

But this kindof unbalances the matchup in favor of guard for the same reason OP complained about in the first place. We have something (barrage weapons) that the tau doesn't, that neutralizes their defense (LOS blockers).

How to have fun against Tau?

Play to their weaknesses.

I prefer tanking with armour saves (Deathwing) or mass numbers (Orks) and beating them to death in cc.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Use LOS-blocking terrain. Every problem with unfun gunline armies can pretty much be solved by having 1-3 good-sized LOS-blocking pieces of terrain somewhere near midfield.

But this kindof unbalances the matchup in favor of guard for the same reason OP complained about in the first place. We have something (barrage weapons) that the tau doesn't, that neutralizes their defense (LOS blockers).

No, it doesn't unbalance the matchup. If you're playing 40k without 1-3 substantially-sized LOS blockers somewhere near midfield, your game is going to be unbalanced in favor of long range sit-back-and-shoot armies. LOS-blocking terrain makes fire lanes and avenues of covered approach, making the game more about maneuver, forcing shooty armies to include some mobility so they can swing around flanks and achieve enfilading fire. Tau have the tools to maneuver and shoot; it just forces them to spread out a little and not be in a perfect layered castle of interlocking Supporting Fire all the time. Which is the intent of the designers.

The variation of 1-3 pieces, and exactly where they are placed, allows plenty of variety in terms of how many fire lanes there are and how easy or difficult approaching the gunline army is.

Losing can be "boring". I guess. But what I will say is that Tau do NOT have to play stagnant to win. If they were VERY active and VERY mobile like mine, would you mind losing to them?

I promise you, not all Tau players play this way. Lots of IG are guilty of the same though and I never heard anyone make an especially big deal out of that. It isn't that they CANT play mobile and some do.

So maybe its the player thats boring. Not the army.

Same philosophy here. I never considered Tau a gunline army, as almost every unit in the old codex (which I have been using for five years) could fire effectively on the move. The Tau were meant to be maneuvering to engage, and not simply sit back in the corner and shoot.

Granted, this new codex seems to encourage static gunline armies with a lot of its units (I am looking at you Cadre Fireblade), and I am of the opinion that Vetock didn't fully understand the army when he wrote the new dex.

.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Pretend you hate all the models you've lovingly assembled and painted and want to watch them die to sushi in mechas.

I 1+'d.

Take about 5 deathstrike launchers and nuke em all! No seriously the op did make me laugh in agreement

Phanixis wrote:

Losing can be "boring". I guess. But what I will say is that Tau do NOT have to play stagnant to win. If they were VERY active and VERY mobile like mine, would you mind losing to them?

I promise you, not all Tau players play this way. Lots of IG are guilty of the same though and I never heard anyone make an especially big deal out of that. It isn't that they CANT play mobile and some do.

So maybe its the player thats boring. Not the army.

Same philosophy here. I never considered Tau a gunline army, as almost every unit in the old codex (which I have been using for five years) could fire effectively on the move. The Tau were meant to be maneuvering to engage, and not simply sit back in the corner and shoot.

Granted, this new codex seems to encourage static gunline armies with a lot of its units (I am looking at you Cadre Fireblade), and I am of the opinion that Vetock didn't fully understand the army when he wrote the new dex.

Hmm... I think he hit the nail on the head. I dont know what other codex's he was part of, but as far as THIS codex is concerned: awesome. EVERY unit now works like it "should" in my opinion. In the previous codex, you imagined how they were imvisioned easily enouh but they were 1 ingredient short of doing what you imagined they SHOULD be able to do. An example is the Stingwings. they just seemed like they would have been perfect with Hit and Run. I always said so. I used them anyways, but I just always thought "how cool would they be if...". And now they have it.

I always thought the drones should be able to take whatever "armament" they wanted. I thought "why should a drone squadron care what KIND of drone is in it?". And now they can. Just made sense.

Stealthsuits always seemed a LITTLE too expensive for 3 shots. I still loved using them but I always thought "man, those are torrent units. The Drons make sense but it would be NICE if the Burst cannon were cooler). I mean LOOK at the Burst cannon and ask youself: how many shots do you think that thing is firing? A LOT right? And on the Devilfish, it ALWAYS seemed like "wow, that should be a frigging GATLING gun of shots, better than a Heavy Bolter I would think!"

And it was done. Devilfish is still expensive BUT... Now at least you have the shots you should have had and it makes up for it a bit. A bit.

And why on earth did I HAVE to have a Commander suit? Sheesh. Ethereals are obviously the leaders of the force, so why force the command suit on me? Voila!

And Ethereals were dicey tosay the least, despite seeming so essential to the fluff. Why cant they ROCK? Well they do. A little. And that does not suck.

Skyrays...nuff said. Just..yah. Better now.

And the opponent NOW gts to see the full panoply of Tau technology doing what it should in battle. The enemy NOW gets to see VARIETY in Tau builds. Broadsides wont be an automatic, but many will have them. FIRE WARRIORS may be completely absent from some forces! Stealth Suit forces will crop up. Riptides will tower over the battlefield like giant Veritech Fighters in Battloid mode or mighty Gundam Stratus suits. You'll See Crisis suits...but every army wont have nine of them. You'll see Piranhas... Welll... You'll SEE Piranahs with BURST CANNONS on their noses! Whuuuuuuu. Yes. Yes you will!

Very cool.

He can only back up so far, and can only fire so many pieplates a turn. Running 200+ orks at him full out should mean that enough will get through to cause some damage...

Usually i lose about half my boyz before i reach my usual Tau enemy's lines, as he backs up to his board edge while shooting the hell out of them. The other half then has the tau boxed in with nowhere to go, and can start krumping.

Of course sometimes his every pieplate is on target and i've not gotten my units properly spaced out, and then it will be a lot fewer orks that get through

I like you sir! I believe you and I would get along quite well in real life! The answer is CLEARLY "BRING MOAR BOYZ!"

Hmm... I think he hit the nail on the head. I dont know what other codex's he was part of, but as far as THIS codex is concerned: awesome. EVERY unit now works like it "should" in my opinion. In the previous codex, you imagined how they were imvisioned easily enouh but they were 1 ingredient short of doing what you imagined they SHOULD be able to do. An example is the Stingwings. they just seemed like they would have been perfect with Hit and Run. I always said so. I used them anyways, but I just always thought "how cool would they be if...". And now they have it.

While I agree with many of your points on the new 'dex the issue at the heart of the matter is all of the mechanics that the units are using to interact with each other. I haven't built a list yet, but myself and several others at my club have run mobile "shoot 'n' scoot" Tau since 3rd ed. They are all playing gunlines now. Every one of them. A lot of the new rules/equipemnt upgrades they got seem to go to waste if you run them any other way but the static gunline.

The thing is, as others have pointed out, this is how many Guard players have played for years. Static line with equipment/rules/weapons to help ignore things like LOS blocking terrain so IDK how much room the average Guard player has to complain. That being said, I've found that my games tend to be more fun if I can think of ways to burn up all his pesky USRs. So if I know that the Tau I'm playing are going to slam down 3 units with interceptor, I try to bring a crap ton of DS units to try and overwhelm the Interceptors. If I'm playing a gunline with a ton of FW, I try to slam them huge amounts of armour saturation that role FORWARD at all times (which is something the OP can probably do if I'm remembering him correctly). I basically try to have one more *thing* than he has units that can go after that thing. I can go into more detail if this isn't making sense. Just let me know.

This sir is not how I play. Nor was it ever. here is the list (I posted it elsewhere) that I am currently using. Note how its used!

170pts 10 Kroot +7 Hounds+3 Krootox
170pts 10 Kroot +7 Hounds+3 Krootox
90pts 10 Fire Warriors
90pts 10 Fire Warriors

194pts 7 Pathfinders (3 x Rail rifles, Recon, Grav and Pulse Drones, EMP Grenades)
95pts Devilfish (Disruption Pod)

194pts 7 Pathfinders (3 x Rail rifles, Recon, Grav and Pulse Drones, EMP Grenades)
95pts Devilfish (Disruption Pod)

140pts 10 Marker Drones

150pts Commander (Flamer, Vectored Retro Thrusters, Drone Controller, Command and Control Node, Repulsor Impact Field, Neuroweb System Jammer, Puretide Engram NeuroChip, Onager Gauntlet)

235pts Riptide battle suit (Ion Accelerator, 1 Missile Drones, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override)
235pts Riptide battle suit (Ion Accelerator, 1 Missile Drones, Velocity Tracker, Early Warning Override)

139pts 3 Crisis Suits (TL Fusion Blaster, Flamer)


1999pts

I have FOUR Outflanking units (that actually outflank), I have a Deep Striking unit (that actually Deep Strikes),


So most of the time, i start with two Riptides on the table, a couple Fire Warrior Squads that aren't full squads, the Commander, and Drone Cloud. The Riptides are generally advancing so that terrain wont provide barriers later in the game once the enemy starts to TRY and retreat behind cover. Drones and Fire Warriors fire on the move to objectives behind the shadow of their protectors, sneaking in and amongst the rocks and generally trying to stay alive to plant the flag.

No stagnant gunline. Essentially 1-3 units at any time are standing generally in place and evn the Drone Sqarm moves forward often, to kep up with the army and provide its valuable services as the enemy crumples befoe the Tau onslaught.

It's been fun.

Now losing isn't ever going to feel "good" but I'm not so sure "bored" is the word I'd use to describe my opponents. Surprised maybe.

The new codex lets you do this.

Some things to add for me...

I play Necrons and I found my play style, the Av13 wall, just gums up Tau lines. The more they want to leverage their abilities in overwatch, the more I break them of that with Ann. Barges and Telsa arcing.

Plus, Tau Firewarriors are one of the few things that'd fold to a Necron warrior charge!

My planned Tau list of someday will not include the vehicle... just because I don't like the Tau vehicles ( how they look )! I know it won't be all mobile and fun... but it will be fun for me to build, paint, and sometimes throw on the table.

(Oh and Jancoran, you might want to drop those missile drones off your riptides. Kill one and you are now taking a leadership test due to a loss of over 25% of the unit!)

 TheKbob wrote:

(Oh and Jancoran, you might want to drop those missile drones off your riptides. Kill one and you are now taking a leadership test due to a loss of over 25% of the unit!)

Anyone not playing marines is quite familiar with how leadership works. 8 is nothing to be overly concerned about.

hmm... how to have fun playing against tau....

Not sure yet, as I'm the tau player in my group, but there has been no complaints so far. On the other hand, I spam nothing.
Other than running a farsight bomb, there's nothing that could be construed as OP or OTT.

My standard list right now is:
either farsight bomb or a commander and an ethereal
2 crisis squads (still running fireknives)
riptide IA VT
2*12 firewarriors
15 kroot 2 krootox
2*6 pathfinders w/ devilfish
2 hammerhead
1 broadside

in other words, a little of everything that I have

 TheKbob wrote:
Some things to add for me...
(Oh and Jancoran, you might want to drop those missile drones off your riptides. Kill one and you are now taking a leadership test due to a loss of over 25% of the unit!)

Yeah this is a WIP, and yeah, I probably should. The attractive thing is that my army has been hitting with 10 Markjerlights pretty much every time. So when I fire the Shielded Missile Drone, it's not missing. The added wound helps understate the wounds I'm giving myslf with the Reactor. But I want to add a Sniper Drone unit and the points are likely to come from those Missile Drones. After 9 games, I've had to run in one of those games because of the Drone but3having to snap Fire didn't matter because of the Markerdrones. Had i been any closer to the board edge though...coulda ended badly. That's another reason why i push the field with the Riptides: Damage control.

I don't want to misrepresent the OP here, but could it be that his only Tau opponent happens to be a very good player and/ or spams the best units [eg silly riptide spam]? Because that's a frustrating combination for anyone.. almost enough to make you write off an entire army as horrendously tiresome.

My only complaint with tau is the farsight bomb...it's single handedly beat my army x2 now. 1 turn they came in and split fire 2 grey knight squads. My assault comes up and charge with a dreadknight...overwatch dead. 1 games turn 3 units killed to one unit. That's bad lol. Long fangs would be good for them, but that's only if they survive the turn he drops in lol.

 BryllCream wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Run Rhinos up the board and LOS some units

imperial guard doesnt run up the board , nor does it have rhinos.

They have chimeras and deepstriking stormtroopers. I don't know the stats of Tau backfield units but I'm guessing that deepstriking stormies with plasma guns will do some damage, and three of them will break up the backfield nicely.

OP, I do see where you're coming from. Tau can be very boring to play against, but only if your army is mundane. A guard player will have Basilisks which will outrange his stuff, and deepstrikers/outflanking blob so that the Tau player doesn't have the option of simply sitting back and rolling dice.

Three units of stormtroopers? Are you on drugs?

And a lot of people seem to be missing the OP's point... he's not complaining about their power level, but rather the lack of tactical choices to be made when facing them.

KnowItAll wrote:

Three units of stormtroopers? Are you on drugs?

Probably the kind that wins games. Stormtroopers are fantastiawesome.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

KnowItAll wrote:

Three units of stormtroopers? Are you on drugs?

Probably the kind that wins games. Stormtroopers are fantastiawesome.

But not against Tau... not against 90% of your possible opponents actually.


If you want to have a fun game against Tau, then bring 31+" range weapons to the table en masse. It will be fun... for you . You Tau opponent won't enjoy it though.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Probably the kind that wins games. Stormtroopers are fantastiawesome.

You are the opposite of anything resembling right.

KnowItAll wrote:

You are the opposite of anything resembling right.

I disgaree, Knowitall. but that's fine. It has nothing to do with whether youcan have fun playing against Tau.

I have to empathize with Ailiaros a little. I was in a similar situation when playing against the old Chaos Demons. Their deployment rules were frustrating to play against because you basically had to deploy in a ridculious manner to ensure you didn't get tabled by turn 2. Every game played by daemons was determined how good his deep strikes went. Not a lot of fun for me.

The one thing I do like about the Tau codex is that it breaks up Aegishammer a bit. I am getting tired of seeing the Aegis lines every game. I play Guard and I have never once used them.

I do think the 5pt Interceptor upgrade is criminally undercosted, and the Ignores Cover markerlight ability needs to work like the last edition. 1 marker for each point of cover reduced. Other than that I think its a fine codex.