Is the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability susceptible to Kharn the Betrayer’s Deny 2+ deny the witch?
Leech life is 3D6 (leadership or morale??) If it is morale then kharne and his unit are also fearless so auto pass.. Correct?

And when Kharne and the are within 6" leech life (shooting and close combat) they get to roll a burn da witch?
So i assume Spirit Leech is a Nova Type Psycher ability. When doom casts a blessing (FNP or something) on himself, it does not get to use a Second pyscher power in the shooting phase?

FAQ 1.2:
Q: When a Tyranid model with the regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)
A: No. When rolling to regenerate woundsroll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds.

I do not understand this.. So if Doom is gaining WOUNDS from my Kharne unit affected by leech life.. How many can he gain back. Kharne and the Beserker champ through shooting and 3 turns of assault dealt 7+ wounds. (Doom never lost his final wound.)

Doom of Malan’tai considered to be a Zoanthrope for the purposes of Warp Field.
Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

You are mixing up a lot of rules.

The special rule that the Doom has (Spirit Leech), is no Psychic power. You get no deny the witch against it. Also, this is not a regenerate power, so the FAQ quote you gave doesn't comment on the Doom's power.

The Doom is also a level 1 psycker, so you can give it the codex power or one power from Biomancy, Telepathy or Telekinesis. These powers are psychic powers, so your enemy will get deny the witch against them.

 Pause Game wrote:
Is the Doom of Malan’tai’s Spirit Leech ability susceptible to Kharn the Betrayer’s Deny 2+ deny the witch?
Leech life is 3D6 (leadership or morale??) If it is morale then kharne and his unit are also fearless so auto pass.. Correct?

And when Kharne and the are within 6" leech life (shooting and close combat) they get to roll a burn da witch?
So i assume Spirit Leech is a Nova Type Psycher ability. When doom casts a blessing (FNP or something) on himself, it does not get to use a Second pyscher power in the shooting phase?

FAQ 1.2:
Q: When a Tyranid model with the regeneration biomorph (including Old One Eye’s Rapid Regeneration) rolls to recover lost wounds, can it attempt to recover wounds suffered in the battle that have already been regenerated? (p84)
A: No. When rolling to regenerate woundsroll a number of dice equal to the difference between the model’s current number of Wounds and its starting number of Wounds.

I do not understand this.. So if Doom is gaining WOUNDS from my Kharne unit affected by leech life.. How many can he gain back. Kharne and the Beserker champ through shooting and 3 turns of assault dealt 7+ wounds. (Doom never lost his final wound.)

Doom of Malan’tai considered to be a Zoanthrope for the purposes of Warp Field.
Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

Spirit Leech is not a Psychic Power, it is a special rule. So no Deny the Witch or Burn the Witch. Spirit Leech is not Leech Life, nor is it a Nova power. Nor is it a Regeneration biomorph.

If you are withink 6" of the Doom at the start of Shooting, you take a 3D6 Leadership (not morale) test. Each point you fail by is a wound on that unit, with no armour saves (cover and invuln are allowed). Each wound caused by Spirit Leech, the Doom gains, up to a max of 10.

And as far as I know, Spirit Leech still affects units that are locked in combat if they are within 6" of the Doom, even if they are in combat WITH the Doom.

Thank you,
So special rule (Spirit leech) causes units within 6 inches to take a ...
3d6 leadership test subtracted from leadership (10). The number of wounds in this case are rolls above 10. these wounds ... grant Doom +1 Wounds

Doom and Kharne are in a challenge.. Are the wounds inflected between challenger and challengee?

 Pause Game wrote:
Thank you,
So special rule (Spirit leech) causes units within 6 inches to take a ...
3d6 leadership test subtracted from leadership (10). The number of wounds in this case are rolls above 10. these wounds ... grant Doom +1 Wounds

Doom and Kharne are in a challenge.. Are the wounds inflected between challenger and challengee?

Indeed. Each point above your LD10 you are on 3D6 = a wound for the Doom.

Im not sure if the Doom is a Character off the top of my head. But if he is, and therefore can be challenged, then any units with 6" will still be affected anyway, so this would still affect Kharn and his unit (as far as I know)

 Pause Game wrote:
[...]When doom casts a blessing (FNP or something) on himself, it does not get to use a Second pyscher power in the shooting phase?[...]

Since the Doom is a level 1 psycker, it generates 1 warp charge per turn. As such, it can never use two psychic powers per turn. Again, the Spirit Leech power is not a psychic power.

 Pause Game wrote:
Thank you,
So special rule (Spirit leech) causes units within 6 inches to take a ...
3d6 leadership test subtracted from leadership (10). The number of wounds in this case are rolls above 10. these wounds ... grant Doom +1 Wounds

Doom and Kharne are in a challenge.. Are the wounds inflected between challenger and challengee?

Kharne's unit would still have to roll and suffer wounds - Spirit Leech has nothing to do with close combat.

It'd be useful to read the ability from the Tyranid codex - if you don't have one, ask to borrow your opponents.

Im not sure if the Doom is a Character off the top of my head. But if he is, and therefore can be challenged, then any units with 6" will still be affected anyway, so this would still affect Kharn and his unit (as far as I know)

Doom is not a character, so he can't be challenged. only tyrants, tervigons, PoM and warrior/trygon primes are characters in the nids codex.

Quite a few people now switch out the blasty-blas power for telepathy now adays, so expect to take a fair amount of hurting from the doom. He is without a doubt the best model in the game that costs <100 pts. If you want to get real technical, he costs 140 points, because every nid player with their salt puts him in a pod with a tl-deathspitter.

 StarHunter25 wrote:

Im not sure if the Doom is a Character off the top of my head. But if he is, and therefore can be challenged, then any units with 6" will still be affected anyway, so this would still affect Kharn and his unit (as far as I know)

Doom is not a character, so he can't be challenged. only tyrants, tervigons, PoM and warrior/trygon primes are characters in the nids codex.

That's false. As a special character he is a character and can be challenged.

 StarHunter25 wrote:
Only tyrants, tervigons, PoM and warrior/trygon primes are characters in the nids codex.

To add on to this list: Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Doom of Malan'tai, Broodlords, and Old One Eye.

@rigeld - as his opponent for said game, I did give him my codex so he could review the rule. I then explained that the Doom only has 1 power - Cataclysm, which I swapped out for a roll on Biomancy, getting Endurance.

^^^ whats up buddy ??!?!? This did not make sense to me so ive been digging. check out the barrage rule


Tyranid 5E codex page 33: Tyranid Psykers. ... .."They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather harness a fraction of the Hive Mind gestalt will. This makes no difference for game purposes and these models still follow all normal rules for psykers.. peril of warp.... The rules and descriptions of the different psychic abilities are described in the tyanid psychic powers section which can be found on page 62."

Tyranid Codex pg 58: Doom of Malan'tai - ......"The Doom of Malan'tai focused its considerable psychic might and absorbed the life-energy of all those around it."
BRB Special Rules page 32: " ......What special rules do i have? > "..special rules are given to a model in the relevant entry in its codex. > "Similarly a model might "get special rules as the result of psychic powers, > where this is the case the rule that governs this psychic power, scenario, terrain will be clear
FAQ 1.2 Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

Special Rule > "Psychic Attach" > Spirit Leech:(abbreviated) at the beginning of every shooting phase including foes, applicable units w/in range of doom takes a 3D6 Leadership test, deal wounds no armor saves allowed

BRB page 68: Types of Psychic Powers > Powers without a type > "Powers without a Type" if a psychic power does not have a type the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry.

<Aside...."IMO Spirit Leech sounds like the NOVA type" -> Auto hits all units within psychic power max range regardless locked in combat, intervening toy soldiers, otherwise is treated as shooting attack. .... Sounds familiar to me.
There is no question that doom does NOT have to use a warp charge for spirit leech, coz because it is specifically stated the it can use more powers each turn that it actually knows.(pg 66. establishing a mastery level). >

Regardless of type -> at any shooting attack phase, units are affected by psychic special rule spirit leech

Independent character:
BRB page 63 (small DV rulebook): Characters > Character types > Independent Characters " some characters have the endependent character spectial rule, which allows them to join other units(see page 39)
Doom > Unit Type: infantry

Argument: That the word psychic is impossible to spell...

1. Deny the witch
Kharn & attached/joined Khorne Bezerker unit receive the special rule: Blessing of the Blood God "Kharn and his unit always pass their Burn do Witch roll on established result... (found in codex)" CSM code 59.

2. Kharn and entire unit can strike blows upon Doom, coz this infantry unit (Doom also FAQ as zoanthrope) is not an independent character.
Karn has special rule "independent character" his unit has a Skull champ of chaos ..... The Doom of Malan'tai does not mention the independent character special rule.


Gonna go watch Monty Python after all this "is it a witch thinking."

 Pause Game wrote:
Tyranid 5E codex page 33: Tyranid Psykers. ... .."They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather harness a fraction of the Hive Mind gestalt will. This makes no difference for game purposes and these models still follow all normal rules for psykers.. peril of warp.... The rules and descriptions of the different psychic abilities are described in the tyanid psychic powers section which can be found on page 62."

Which is irrelevant because it's not a psychic power...

Tyranid Codex pg 58: Doom of Malan'tai - ......"The Doom of Malan'tai focused its considerable psychic might and absorbed the life-energy of all those around it."

Fluff description.

BRB Special Rules page 32: " ......What special rules do i have? > "..special rules are given to a model in the relevant entry in its codex. > "Similarly a model might "get special rules as the result of psychic powers, > where this is the case the rule that governs this psychic power, scenario, terrain will be clear
FAQ 1.2 Q: What Psychic Mastery Level is the Doom of Malantai? (p58) A: Mastery Level 1.

Yup. What is Spirit Leech listed as?

Special Rule > "Psychic Attach" > Spirit Leech:(abbreviated) at the beginning of every shooting phase including foes, applicable units w/in range of doom takes a 3D6 Leadership test, deal wounds no armor saves allowed

That's not what it says. It says "Special Rules: stuff, blah, Spirit Leech: blahblah".

BRB page 68: Types of Psychic Powers > Powers without a type > "Powers without a Type" if a psychic power does not have a type the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry.

Page 58 of the Tyranid codex - there's a large difference between Special Rules and Psychic Powers.

<Aside...."IMO Spirit Leech sounds like the NOVA type" -> Auto hits all units within psychic power max range regardless locked in combat, intervening toy soldiers, otherwise is treated as shooting attack. .... Sounds familiar to me.

It's similar to a Nova. It's not a Psychic Power.

Independent character:
BRB page 63 (small DV rulebook): Characters > Character types > Independent Characters " some characters have the endependent character spectial rule, which allows them to join other units(see page 39)
Doom > Unit Type: infantry

He's not an independent Character. He's a special character. Page 110 BRB.

1. Deny the witch
Kharn & attached/joined Khorne Bezerker unit receive the special rule: Blessing of the Blood God "Kharn and his unit always pass their Burn do Witch roll on established result... (found in codex)" CSM code 59.

If Spirit Leech was a psychic power yes you could deny it on a 2+.

2. Kharn and entire unit can strike blows upon Doom, coz this infantry unit (Doom also FAQ as zoanthrope) is not an independent character.
Karn has special rule "independent character" his unit has a Skull champ of chaos ..... The Doom of Malan'tai does not mention the independent character special rule.

It is not an Independent Character, it is a special character like Mephiston.

Simply put Pause Game... Spirit Leech is NOT a psychic power.

Now .... carry on.

And all wounds caused by Doom regains him wounds, not just the ones from spirit leech.

I hate the Doom... if you don't bring ID weapons or S8, sucks to be you!

And yes, it'd not a Psychic power. And woe be the player who has to fight Doom that has Iron Arm.

How often do you have a whole army without at least a couple s8 weapons?

short answer. no.

I don't understand why everybody complains about the Doom.. It's one of the few good models in the Nid codex. Suck it up and deal with it!

It doesn't need to be nerfed, and it's not overpowered. It's only TRULY amazing in certain situations. You think people would just accept it by now, it's not like its new or anything.

 Bookwrack wrote:
How often do you have a whole army without at least a couple s8 weapons?

Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, ... a lot of the current "Meta" armies focus on S7 fire power saturation vs higher (S8+) shots.

 Adamantium wrote:
I don't understand why everybody complains about the Doom.. It's one of the few good models in the Nid codex. Suck it up and deal with it!

It doesn't need to be nerfed, and it's not overpowered. It's only TRULY amazing in certain situations. You think people would just accept it by now, it's not like its new or anything.

Except when you're always playing against it and it eats Grey Hunter squads like no tomorrow. *sigh* I have this proposition to make: Nerf Doom, make the rest of the Codex better! (I want to run a Genestealer / Warrior army!)

 TheKbob wrote:

Except when you're always playing against it

If you're "always playing against it" and haven't figured out how to deal with, the problem would seem to be you...

helotaxi wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Except when you're always playing against it

If you're "always playing against it" and haven't figured out how to deal with, the problem would seem to be you...

Yea, if you mean I have to hide in Rhinos or area terrain, separate out my forces so they are thinned, less effective just because of one model in the opponents army that doesn't scatter on DS very much.

TOTALLY WITH ME, YO. I absolutely have no idea what I'm talking about....

*sigh* Thing also has a 3++, so it can shrug off all the S8 I put into it. The only thing that can remotely lock it in combat is one of my Lone Wolves, and even then, 3++ save, the dude has to GET THERE (which my opponent is not going to DS the Doom near my Chainfist hug-buddies).

It's an extremely overpowered single model that does a lot for what it does with no down side or counter. I could get an Icarus Lascannon and hope to one shot it... oh wait, they hide the doom behind the pod and I can't see it. Nevermind!

There would be no advatangeous reason for Kharn to challenge the Doom other than he or possibly another Champion of Chaos would have to if Doom did count as a character. Everybody gets to swing at him in melee which is what you want,

H is a character so Kharn (or someone else) would have to lock him up in CC. Which is exactly what the Doom wants. Yummy souls.

'H'?

He. Stupid iPad keyboard.

Heh. Okay.

All of the above is absolutely spot on. You can't Deny the Witch it because it's not a psychic attack. This comes up all the time on these forums and doesn't need any more FAQ's to clear up. Spirit Leech is a Special Rule, it's used automatically every turn unless you choose not to or forget (which would be silly) and you can then cast your psychic power, too. Simples.

Yes he can be a nightmare to deal with if you didn't bring the tools but that's half the fun of it, it presents a tactical challenge. If you come to the table without any S8+ weapons then how do you ever propose to take down Land Raiders or Monoliths? A T4 single model should be the least of your worries.

I've had the dude fielded against me on numerous occasions and although he can be a huge threat if left unchecked, I make sure that he very rarely makes any real impact before he's removed from play. Generally he'll make his points cost back upon arrival, immediately leeching wounds straight out of his pod, but after that he's a sitting duck for my Plasma Cannons, CC Dreadknights and pretty much every other model in my army who are all wielding Force Weapons.

The last time he was fielded against me my opponent forgot about my ADL with Quad Gun and his Doom promply died upon arrival. He was an angry panda.

You'd have to be Lucky, or he has to be really unlucky, to take down Doom with a Quad gun...

Starting on 4 wounds, you'd need to hit 4 times, wound 4 times and have Doom fail all 4 of his 3++ Saves.

Bloodhorror wrote:
You'd have to be Lucky, or he has to be really unlucky, to take down Doom with a Quad gun...

Starting on 4 wounds, you'd need to hit 4 times, wound 4 times and have Doom fail all 4 of his 3++ Saves.

Hitting and wounding is not the tough part as the gun is Twin Linked and wounds on a 2+

The tough part is getting the doom to fail 4 3up saves.

A Icarus Lascannon can do it if the Doom fails 1 3up save though, so it has a slightly better chance of it.

Enceladus wrote:

Yes he can be a nightmare to deal with if you didn't bring the tools but that's half the fun of it, it presents a tactical challenge. If you come to the table without any S8+ weapons then how do you ever propose to take down Land Raiders or Monoliths? A T4 single model should be the least of your worries.

How? Necrons can rock out a Land Raider or other Av14 without having S8+ weapons. Guass, S6 + Rending, S7 + Armour Bane. Actually most Necron comp lists are lacking in S8+.

However, they are Ld10 and less scared of the Doom.

 TheKbob wrote:

helotaxi wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Except when you're always playing against it

If you're "always playing against it" and haven't figured out how to deal with, the problem would seem to be you...

Yea, if you mean I have to hide in Rhinos or area terrain, separate out my forces so they are thinned, less effective just because of one model in the opponents army that doesn't scatter on DS very much.

TOTALLY WITH ME, YO. I absolutely have no idea what I'm talking about....

*sigh* Thing also has a 3++, so it can shrug off all the S8 I put into it. The only thing that can remotely lock it in combat is one of my Lone Wolves, and even then, 3++ save, the dude has to GET THERE (which my opponent is not going to DS the Doom near my Chainfist hug-buddies).

It's an extremely overpowered single model that does a lot for what it does with no down side or counter. I could get an Icarus Lascannon and hope to one shot it... oh wait, they hide the doom behind the pod and I can't see it. Nevermind!

What do you mean it doesn't scatter on DS very much? Mycetic Spores scatter the full distance. (apart from reducing to avoid mishaps exactly like drop pods)

Yeah, 3+ saves sure are terrible, imagine playing an army with no AP 3 vs an army that's got entirely 3+ armour.

It's definitely points-effective, but I wouldn't call it overpowered, it certainly has a lot of damage potential vs low leadership armies and there will be the odd game where your opponent just fails all their leadership tests horribly, the primary role of the Doom is as a diversion, not a damage dealer, taking a bunch of high strength shots and dying so that my expensive MCs can live.

Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)

 TheKbob wrote:

Enceladus wrote:

Yes he can be a nightmare to deal with if you didn't bring the tools but that's half the fun of it, it presents a tactical challenge. If you come to the table without any S8+ weapons then how do you ever propose to take down Land Raiders or Monoliths? A T4 single model should be the least of your worries.

How? Necrons can rock out a Land Raider or other Av14 without having S8+ weapons. Guass, S6 + Rending, S7 + Armour Bane. Actually most Necron comp lists are lacking in S8+.

However, they are Ld10 and less scared of the Doom.

But they have the option to take S8, it's not like the army is lacking in them.
If you choose to leave them out then you take the chance of something like the Doom doing damage to you and live with the consequences.

The argument that nails are hard to deal with when you use a screwdriver is invalid if you don't bother to take the hammer out of your tool box.

Well, as a Tyranid player, I take him in almost every game I have ever played. It is definitely a unit based on the luck of the die roll. Sometimes my opponents roll very bad, and sometimes I fail every 3++ save on it in the first Shooting Phase. That's what I like about it so much, it's effectiveness and outcome are completely left to the Dice Gods...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)

And it gets a 6" disembark move now, so can correct for most bad scatters.

 Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)

And it gets a 6" disembark move now, so can correct for most bad scatters.

Just like any unit from any other army with a drop pod equivalent.

The Infinite wrote:

But they have the option to take S8, it's not like the army is lacking in them.
If you choose to leave them out then you take the chance of something like the Doom doing damage to you and live with the consequences.

The argument that nails are hard to deal with when you use a screwdriver is invalid if you don't bother to take the hammer out of your tool box.

That's not a valid statement. I play Necrons. There is a great many limit in their shooting above S8. It's either one shot weapons, large (ineffective, usually) blasts, an overcosted flyer and the Triarch Stalker. Oh, and one variant of Crypteks.

Compared to a Space Marine variant, IG, Tau, etc... getting S8 is tough for crons. I gave you an example of an army that ROUTINELY has little to no S8+ and it's not for bad list building, either. That's just how the army runs.

 TheKbob wrote:
an overcosted flyer

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaaaaa...

Sorry, I just found that amusing.

I think the point he's making is you have the option to strength 8 if you want to be able to instant kill toughness 4, and that while choosing not to may make good tactical sense, you have to accept the inherent weaknesses of doing so, just like any other army. I could choose to take a horde Tyranid list with no Flyrants, which would be quite weak to Valkyries, and I'd have to accept that, rather than complain about it on a forum.

Touche

 TheKbob wrote:

The Infinite wrote:

But they have the option to take S8, it's not like the army is lacking in them.
If you choose to leave them out then you take the chance of something like the Doom doing damage to you and live with the consequences.

The argument that nails are hard to deal with when you use a screwdriver is invalid if you don't bother to take the hammer out of your tool box.

That's not a valid statement. I play Necrons. There is a great many limit in their shooting above S8. It's either one shot weapons, large (ineffective, usually) blasts, an overcosted flyer and the Triarch Stalker. Oh, and one variant of Crypteks.

Compared to a Space Marine variant, IG, Tau, etc... getting S8 is tough for crons. I gave you an example of an army that ROUTINELY has little to no S8+ and it's not for bad list building, either. That's just how the army runs.

Necron defense against the Doom is mindshackle scarabs.

DexKivuli wrote: Necron defense against the Doom is mindshackle scarabs.

Go on... when the doom wounds itself what happens : )

Depends how many souls he has eaten, doesn't it?

Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
an overcosted flyer

I think the point he's making is you have the option to strength 8 if you want to be able to instant kill toughness 4, and that while choosing not to may make good tactical sense, you have to accept the inherent weaknesses of doing so, just like any other army. I could choose to take a horde Tyranid list with no Flyrants, which would be quite weak to Valkyries, and I'd have to accept that, rather than complain about it on a forum.

Yes, thank you that was a much better way of putting across my point, sorry if I came across a little snarky.

Options and choices are fun, they are integral to what makes the game worth playing in the first place and they start right at the list building stage. If you go for maximum efficiency you have to make a great deal of assumptions about what you're likely to be facing, any opponents that field forces that lie outside of your maximum-efficiency-window will cause problems that you will have to overcome or neutralise. Simply put, choose to be ready for the unexpected or not, but if you pick the latter, you've got no-one to blame but yourself.

I do hate the doom!.

As said it may or may not be a psyhic power but as there is no psyhic test it cannot be DTW.

Played against the doom on Sunday, failed one test by 4 which my TH SS tanked all four and the other squad passed and proceeded to put four krak missiles into his squishy head he died then the rest of the Nid force soon followed.

Doom really put a crapper on me the first time I played him, not relising it is every shooting phase (opponent 'forgot' to mention this as I move my libby away from the squad he was with to charge the doom), and not relising I could get cover saves, my poor techmarine in bolstered ruins was pretty screwed without cover saves!, again my opponent didnt bother telling me, at that point I had been playing for little over a month.

 Happyjew wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

Hm, trying for Iron Arm against standard tournament Necron lists might actually be a good idea if you don't think they'd be able to kill the Doom the turn it arrives, on the other hand it's only a 1 in 6 chance so you'd normally end up defaulting to Smite which doesn't hold a candle to cataclysm.

 Happyjew wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

Why would you switch out his normal power? It's a pretty amazing offensive weapon even at S8.

Tyragorn wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mindshackle Scarabs and the Doom are hilarious, either the Doom regains all the wounds it causes to itself with less than 8 strength or instakills itself with strength 8+.

Not if he has Iron Arm

Why would you switch out his normal power? It's a pretty amazing offensive weapon even at S8.

I do all the time. Cataclysm is good but I'd rather try for Enfeeble (to help out the rest of the army) or Iron Arm. Smite as a fallack still gets me wounds.

Iron Arm - grants EW
Enfeeble - knocks down enemies Toughness
Endurance - FNP and IWND
Life Leech - deals Wounds and regenerates wounds lost
Warp Speed - Extra attacks
Haemorrhage - has done more damage then Spirit Leech...

Life Leech, WS, and Haem I'll usually drop for Smite, but yeah. That's normally why I roll on the BRB tables. Cataclysm is fun, but the other stuff is normally more useful.

how does Life Leech work and It Will not die work for Wound Regeneration on doom?

At the end of his turn, if the Doom is below 4 Wounds (starting) he can regenerate one wound via IWND.
For Life Leech, since there are 2 effects happening concurrently (regenerating wounds, gaining wounds from Absorb Life, the current player whose turn it is chooses order. So if the Doom was down to 2 Wounds, and Life Leech caused 2 wounds, you could either apply life leech first (regenerating 2 Wounds) and then AL (leaving you at 6), or you could apply AL first, raising you to 4, and then Life Leech does nothing.

Life Leech doing normal wounds can add to his wound total. It cannot "Leech" a wound if he's above his starting wounds however.

(example - Doom is at 2 wounds and hits and wounds once with Life Leech. That wound caused gives him 1 wound for being the Doom and 1 wound for being caused with Life Leech, so Doom is at 4 wounds now)

I was running the Doom in my list a few games back when the FAQ hit about models in a unit that are outside of the max range of a shooting attacking not been able to have wounds allocated to them.

Does this apply to the small range on the Dooms Life Leech? or does that only apply to shooting attacks? I couldn't see him been very effective if it does.

 vossyvo wrote:
I was running the Doom in my list a few games back when the FAQ hit about models in a unit that are outside of the max range of a shooting attacking not been able to have wounds allocated to them.

Does this apply to the small range on the Dooms Life Leech? or does that only apply to shooting attacks? I couldn't see him been very effective if it does.

It applies to the dooms attack as well.

This is because you have to use the shooting rules to resolve the wounds on the target unit if the ability is going to work at all.

Happyjew wrote:At the end of his turn, if the Doom is below 4 Wounds (starting) he can regenerate one wound via IWND.
For Life Leech, since there are 2 effects happening concurrently (regenerating wounds, gaining wounds from Absorb Life, the current player whose turn it is chooses order. So if the Doom was down to 2 Wounds, and Life Leech caused 2 wounds, you could either apply life leech first (regenerating 2 Wounds) and then AL (leaving you at 6), or you could apply AL first, raising you to 4, and then Life Leech does nothing.

How are you gaining 2 wounds from Life Leech?

vossyvo wrote:I was running the Doom in my list a few games back when the FAQ hit about models in a unit that are outside of the max range of a shooting attacking not been able to have wounds allocated to them.

Does this apply to the small range on the Dooms Life Leech? or does that only apply to shooting attacks? I couldn't see him been very effective if it does.

As it's not a shooting attack, rules about shooting attacks are irrelevant, so the FAQ doesn't apply.

Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

RAW, yes. But as that's stupid, a reasonable opponent would allow you to allocate wounds (which of course then brings up the question of how) It's pretty much the same situation Vector Strikes used to be in.

Yes, so a rasonable opponent should also expect you to use ALL the shooting rules, not just the ones you WANT to use - meaning Out of Range and Out of Sight would also apply

 Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except in a pod he will reduce scatter if he would mishap (apart from off table)

And it gets a 6" disembark move now, so can correct for most bad scatters.

Is it not still 2" for disembark from a pod?

Nope, FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, so a reasonable opponent should also expect you to use ALL the shooting rules, not just the ones you WANT to use - meaning Out of Range and Out of Sight would also apply

But what is the "range" of Spirit Leech? All it says is units within 6" take the Leadership test.

So if I had a unit of 8 Boyz in a congo line exactly 2" apart, with the closest being exactly 6" away, and they roll a 15 for their Leadership test how many suffer wounds (assuming no cover or invulnerable saves)?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, so a rasonable opponent should also expect you to use ALL the shooting rules, not just the ones you WANT to use - meaning Out of Range and Out of Sight would also apply

Just came from a tournament where the TOs who have been running and playing for years played it differently. Ruled it can wound past 6 and hit oos, based on it being a special rule.

Using the shooting rules is something people do to make their own life's easier and while I agree the FAQ allowing cover saves seems to back that up, there is no RAW past cover saves.

The Doom debate will rage on till Janruary when a new codex drives us to models we don't own.

Happyjew - its range is "units within 6"" - it just defines the range differently to normal ranges (like range: template for a flamer is different to range: 8")

Edit: as for TOs ruling differently, that is fine, as essentually Doom to function requires a houserule

RAW it does not function at all, as you have no permission to roll to-wound a non-shooting, non-CC attack.

However 6th has brought back LOS and Range as being key elements in assigning wounds to models, so as a TO myself, playing for years, I rule it can only wound models in range (which is the whoel unit) and in LOS of the doom.

And I'd rule, based on The Soul Blaze precedent, that its a special rule causing the wounds and doesn't need LoS or range to the whole unit.

No deny witch, Burn it with fire, (shooting is the best way to kill it fast.

rigeld2 wrote:
And I'd rule, based on The Soul Blaze precedent, that its a special rule causing the wounds and doesn't need LoS or range to the whole unit.

The main difference being Soulblaze does not emanate from a model like the Doom's ability does. The range of the Doom's attack is similar to a Nova Psychic power.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And I'd rule, based on The Soul Blaze precedent, that its a special rule causing the wounds and doesn't need LoS or range to the whole unit.

The main difference being Soulblaze does not emanate from a model like the Doom's ability does. The range of the Doom's attack is similar to a Nova Psychic power.

I can see that argument, even if I disagree with it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

The ability doesn't roll to wound.

 Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

The ability doesn't roll to wound.

Uh Oh.

 Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

The ability doesn't roll to wound.

Then you have no ability to allocate wounds, as it isnt a shooting attack

The point stands

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then you have no ability to roll to wound, and then allocate wounds, as these are all under the Shooting section.

The ability doesn't roll to wound.

Then you have no ability to allocate wounds, as it isnt a shooting attack

The point stands

Erm, no. He was saying that you cited a requirement to use the shooting rules to roll to wound. Spirit Leech doesn't roll to wound as it has no STR value. The only thing it's "missing" is a method of allocating wounds.

...which is the same overall point. You need a method to allocate wounds, which is under the shooting rules.

I mistakenly thought it was missing TWO things, as I'd forgotten the lack of one, however you still need ONE thing that is missing. One or two things missing still results in a requirement to use the shooting rule, hence "the point stands"

It's not a requirement to use the shooting rule - it just needs a method.

The Soul Blaze precedent is a perfectly valid method. I could see them going either way really.

Oh definitely, however given it has come from a model, in a fixed position, which doesnt have the issues of vector strike et al, Random Allocation isnt as pertinent. I think LOS shoudl come into play.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh definitely, however given it has come from a model, in a fixed position, which doesnt have the issues of vector strike et al, Random Allocation isnt as pertinent. I think LOS shoudl come into play.

Soul Blaze doesn't use Random Allocation.

It uses the "sufferer chooses" method of allocation. page 42 BRB. Soul Blaze even must roll to wound and doesn't refer to the shooting rules at all.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a requirement to use the shooting rule - it just needs a method.

The Soul Blaze precedent is a perfectly valid method. I could see them going either way really.

Soul blaze also doesnt allow cover saves, the dooms ability does though there is where another connection to shooting attacks comes from, no other attacks in any phase allows cover saves iirc?

Soul Blaze specifically doesn't allow them... which doesn't mean anything really.

All wounds from any source allow cover saves unless otherwise specified - shooting phase, movement phase, even Assault phase (if it's not from a CC attack) wounds can be saved by cover.

Which other method inflicts wounds outside of the shooting phase that allows cover saves rigeld?, interested as I couldnt think of any?.

I know overwatch does but then it is treated as a shooting phase.

The closest power fluff wise is Mind War, which rquires LOS, so I dont think that requiring LOS (so Out of Sight applynig) is that far fetched.

MarkyMark wrote:
Which other method inflicts wounds outside of the shooting phase that allows cover saves rigeld?, interested as I couldnt think of any?.

I know overwatch does but then it is treated as a shooting phase.

Vehicle Explodes results.

Bombs also "allow" cover saves, and theyre performed in the movement phase

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The closest power fluff wise is Mind War, which rquires LOS, so I dont think that requiring LOS (so Out of Sight applynig) is that far fetched.

I don't think it's far fetched but I do think that it
a) neuters the ability more than it should
b) is a significant change from 5th (in a bad way) and therefore should be clarified
c) isn't a "shoe in" for requiring LoS.

Like I said, I have no problems playing it either way - I just don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

As much as I hate the Doom, I think this portion is getting a little on the crazy side. It's a psychic blast and Tyranids already have abilities that ignore LOS.

I'll still complain about the Doom, but I won't worry about LOS with it.

 TheKbob wrote:
As much as I hate the Doom, I think this portion is getting a little on the crazy side. It's a psychic blast and Tyranids already have abilities that ignore LOS.

I'll still complain about the Doom, but I won't worry about LOS with it.

We're talking about Spirit Leech (which is not a psychic power) not Cataclysm.

 Happyjew wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
As much as I hate the Doom, I think this portion is getting a little on the crazy side. It's a psychic blast and Tyranids already have abilities that ignore LOS.

I'll still complain about the Doom, but I won't worry about LOS with it.

We're talking about Spirit Leech (which is not a psychic power) not Cataclysm.

Oh, then I dunno then.

Quick question, can FNP be used for wounds caused by the Spirit Leech ability? I'm assuming it can as it's not instant death.

Tyragorn wrote:
Quick question, can FNP be used for wounds caused by the Spirit Leech ability? I'm assuming it can as it's not instant death.

you just answered your own question :-)

At least taking Feel No Pain makes sense than cover saves, how does a tree being in the way possibly save you from having your soul eaten? Does it get caught in the branches or something?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
At least taking Feel No Pain makes sense than cover saves, how does a tree being in the way possibly save you from having your soul eaten? Does it get caught in the branches or something?

Hippies, thats how.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
At least taking Feel No Pain makes sense than cover saves, how does a tree being in the way possibly save you from having your soul eaten? Does it get caught in the branches or something?

Well The rules are an abstraction.

They need to have a certain amount of abstractness to make the game playable.

The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

Rigeld - a) is a litlte too subjective, surely?

A *lot* changed in 6th,and one is that LOS is CRITICAL to hurting units. and models within it

Prince - Mind War. Has allowed cover saves for 3 editions now.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
At least taking Feel No Pain makes sense than cover saves, how does a tree being in the way possibly save you from having your soul eaten? Does it get caught in the branches or something?

I find its best not to think about it....

HA! Take that Doom! All this rubble on the floor is stopping you from leeching my soul ! Ready to fire the Melta gun guys? Guys...? Oh Gak...

Bloodhorror wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
At least taking Feel No Pain makes sense than cover saves, how does a tree being in the way possibly save you from having your soul eaten? Does it get caught in the branches or something?

I find its best not to think about it....

HA! Take that Doom! All this rubble on the floor is stopping you from leeching my soul ! Ready to fire the Melta gun guys? Guys...? Oh Gak...

The rules are an abstraction, that is how "a tree being in the way [can] possibly save you from having your soul eaten"

Just like moving through difficult terrain, sometimes you move and it does not hinder you at all, sometimes you barely shift position.

On Top of that it could be tendrils so that cover would actually block the anime tentacles.

It could even be more powerful if the Doom can see you to focus his ability.

Those would make sense with cover saves.

 Mythra wrote:
On Top of that it could be tendrils so that cover would actually block the anime tentacles.

It could even be more powerful if the Doom can see you to focus his ability.

Those would make sense with cover saves.

Except, if you're reaching for fluff to explain, you have to remember that Zoanthropes have no eyes.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
On Top of that it could be tendrils so that cover would actually block the anime tentacles.

It could even be more powerful if the Doom can see you to focus his ability.

Those would make sense with cover saves.

Except, if you're reaching for fluff to explain, you have to remember that Zoanthropes have no eyes.

No eyes that a human can conceive as being eyes.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
On Top of that it could be tendrils so that cover would actually block the anime tentacles.

It could even be more powerful if the Doom can see you to focus his ability.

Those would make sense with cover saves.

Except, if you're reaching for fluff to explain, you have to remember that Zoanthropes have no eyes.

No eyes that a human can conceive as being eyes.

And, as humans, since we can not understand what or where their ocular cavities are, we have no way of drawing line of sight from their eyes as they do not have eyes " that a human can conceive as being eyes."...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

 Mythra wrote:
On Top of that it could be tendrils so that cover would actually block the anime tentacles.

It could even be more powerful if the Doom can see you to focus his ability.

Those would make sense with cover saves.

Except, if you're reaching for fluff to explain, you have to remember that Zoanthropes have no eyes.

No eyes that a human can conceive as being eyes.

And, as humans, since we can not understand what or where their ocular cavities are, we have no way of drawing line of sight from their eyes as they do not have eyes " that a human can conceive as being eyes."...

Well played sir, well played.

Although which contridiction do we go for...

Page 8 Line of Sight
For one model to have line of sight to another, you must
be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its eyes to
any part of the target's body (the head, torso, arms or legs).


Page 10 TURNING AND FACING
As you move the models in a unit, they can be turned on the
spot to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they
are able to cover, whilst the direction a model's facing won't
impact its ability to shoot or charge into combat later in the
turn, it's always better to have it facing towards the enemy, just
as it would on a real battlefield.

I have painted the eyes a glowey green on Zoanthropes. Why do they put eyes on the models if they don't have any?


Edit:

Even if they don't have eyes it doesn't mean what ever sense they use isn't interrupted by something intervening.

There are no eyes on the Zoanthrope model.