Here in Europe there is a(nother) big discussion about Citadel Finecast models going on right now.
Some of the best and best known commission painters have banned Finecast models from their commission work.
Even though Games Workshop had stated time and time again that now they have their 'Quality Control' in place, more and more people refuse to buy Finecast models.
Atacams banned all commissions as he is frustrated to have to "rectify the atrocious miscasts and bubbles in prep time". Top-Painter Arsies banned Finecast commissions because he "needs one extra day just to clean and repair the miniature" and Poland based Fantasygames
In the comments to the linked article, many other commission painters stated that they either don't like or don't accept Finecast miniatures anymore.
Some of the Gamers stated, that they "only get the stuff they need for their armies, but nothing more".
What are you experiences with Finecast models?
Did you ever have to return them for replacements?
Would you prefer an all-plastic range over the Finecast minis?
Finecast > metal by a long shot, despite the price of course but that's not related to the material. I fecking despise metal. It's the worse thing that could happen to your miniatures.
finecast is the shoddiest material i have ever seen. i refuse to buy it, thats why i only bought 1 new tau model and thats the broadside, if the crisis commander and or farsight were plastic or metal i probably would have bought them. It's disgusting and disingenuous for a massive, popular game company to use such a cheap shoddy material and claim its superior. every model i have seen has either had bubbles or is bent over, with horrendous mold lines.
I can understand someone saying - ok I like lightweight models that are easy to glue together - so Finecast could have been good. But to just categorically claim it's superior to metal? And to act as if it's some kind of universal truth that only dullards don't accept? Shenanigans - I call them.
Metal has issues but I've never opened up a metal blister and had the model pockmarked full of holes - or pieces so thin you could see through.
I've had metal models break - but usually they bend or come apart at the seams - finecast is so frail I've had several models break from minor falls - just pieces snapping off all over.
It's also telling to note that the worst metal models I've had in the last 4 years were all GW models - with trailings gallore and flash and mismatched pieces. Other people were/are doing metal just fine. GWs quality control isn't going to magically get better by switching to a ludicrously frail material.
I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
UltraPrime wrote: Never had a serious problem with Finecast. Much prefer it over metal.
This sums up my experience with Finecast, and if some painter banns it I hardly care to be honest.
This is merely a market dictating terms on how they handle commissions.
From their experience, Finecast appears harder to work with given that there are a few flaws (bubbles and miscasts, not like the whole thing is a riddled swiss cheese plastic husk). These commissioners are paid by the job and if these jobs take too long, it comes out of their bottom line by how many commissions they can accept.
So in short, it is not GW that has failed nor the painters, but merely a policy shift to help make it easier for paid work to be done on time and reasonably priced.
The white metal models were in this gamers opinion were far superior to the finecast crap, I've gone through 4 sets of Gondor Command sets that were absolutely atrocious and or completely broken. That and in my temperate, cool dry mini-storage closet I've had a finecast melt enough to droop, never had that issue with the white metal. Not to mention the white metal is not lead or the resin ie. detrimental to you health.
I grew up on metal figures, and have experience with several makers of metal and resin made figures, IMO finecast is crap, GW doesn't have a quality control, metal i harder to work with, but missing detail is rare.
Uhm, Warone, the commission guys are clearly saying that they can't trust finecast.
Doesnt surprise me really, its a subpar material and probably costs commission painters more time and hassle than its worth.
Also to all those people saying how its better than metal, lets be honest, its not. Ever bought a tau shield drone upgrade pack for example? tell me that was a worse kit in metal.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
So you're anecdotal evidence is stronger than others; and their probably children or newbs anyway? I think we'll park that one their then.
My own experience is that I've had 20 years of metal models that can be a pig to put together but only very minor flaws if any and one year of finecast models (4?) without any flaws but aren't that difficult to put together. I'm no having an issue with it, some of the other resins out there well that's another story.
UltraPrime wrote: Never had a serious problem with Finecast. Much prefer it over metal.
This sums up my experience with Finecast, and if some painter banns it I hardly care to be honest.
This is merely a market dictating terms on how they handle commissions.
From their experience, Finecast appears harder to work with given that there are a few flaws (bubbles and miscasts, not like the whole thing is a riddled swiss cheese plastic husk). These commissioners are paid by the job and if these jobs take too long, it comes out of their bottom line by how many commissions they can accept.
Yeah...that's not true at all. It's not even an extra ten minutes of repairs, and I don't do this for a living like they do.
This is just the OP(who runs "masterminis.blogspot.de") hawking his site and linking to advertisers/partners.
It happens quite often with this individual.
But on topic?
I haven't heard of these "commission painters" before. What great exposure they're getting now!
This is just the OP(who runs "masterminis.blogspot.de") hawking his site and linking to advertisers/partners.
It happens quite often with this individual.
But on topic?
I haven't heard of these "commission painters" before. What great exposure they're getting now!
So...no news at all other than to glint a bit of publicity?
The problem with Finecast is not the material, but GW's incredibly poor (or total lack of) quality control. It certainly says something about them when they clearly feel that it is easier and cheaper to just mail you a replacement model than to make sure the initial model is good before it even leaves the factory. Sure, metal can be a pain at times, too, but given the choice between GW's old metals or their current Finecast, I will go with metal every day.
I can live with Fincecast for the odd mini (ordered one today in fact - the Beastlord with 2 Axes), but I generally stick with plastic where possible.
I never ever enjoyed working with metal minis and putting aside the quality control issues, there can be no denying that a large finecast model is more likely to stay in one piece than it's metal equivalent.
Where Finecast really fails is on flimsy components, like swords and staffs. They're usually bent for starters and snap at the slightest provocation.
While I'm no fan of working with metal, all of my Finecast models have required extra work due to the shoddy nature of the project. It's a poor material, and Games Workshop have no real intent of controlling the quality. The prices (which have never changed in 10 years-source Kingsley) are also atrocious, but that's a whole other discussion.
It's also a very soft and 'bendy' material, which can lead to irreparable damage which I have no way of fixing.
I don't like metal. Even the slightest thing is hard to fix, the weight is fine for the model overall but when you have a metal banner or something you're never going to get it glued on without pinning it. It chips a lot easier too.
And yet I would still take it over finecast any time. In my climate I have had more than 1 sword bend past 90 degrees just on the ride to my FLGS on a warm day. Quality control is a joke, of the 13 models I have gotten each required more time to fix than metal or plastic, and about 2/3rds there just atrocious and have been returned/condemned to the bottom of my bitz box forever. Worst of all though is being told by the guy at my local GW that the 2 models I am holding are fine, and that fur has a texture like that anyway despite both models being terrible. Frankly I can understand how the problems could have been missed by the guys in the warehouse (in a hard to see place) but when these are the 3rd and 4th of the same model I am trying with the exact same problems and there are still bits of the mold attached to the model the passive aggressive attitude to me complaining about the 'best quality models in the world' is just insulting.
If other people aren't getting miscasts or having things melt on them then good for them. I've had that happen though and there is no saving grace other than them being easier to convert so I am done with finecast.
I can understand someone saying - ok I like lightweight models that are easy to glue together - so Finecast could have been good. But to just categorically claim it's superior to metal? And to act as if it's some kind of universal truth that only dullards don't accept? Shenanigans - I call them.
Metal has issues but I've never opened up a metal blister and had the model pockmarked full of holes - or pieces so thin you could see through.
I've had metal models break - but usually they bend or come apart at the seams - finecast is so frail I've had several models break from minor falls - just pieces snapping off all over.
It's also telling to note that the worst metal models I've had in the last 4 years were all GW models - with trailings gallore and flash and mismatched pieces. Other people were/are doing metal just fine. GWs quality control isn't going to magically get better by switching to a ludicrously frail material.
This.
I'm failing to see what the big problem with metal is. Most of people's problems I have found is them using gak glue. Use a good glue and metal models will go together just fine. If we believe the internet hyperbole brigade then metal models shatter into their component parts and more from either a stern look and/or a stiff breeze.
Nope. gak glue again.
Metal is great. Finecast is a great material in theory, but its crappy quality has tarnished GW's reputation forever in many people's eyes.
I've been assembling the Necron HQ's my wife got me when they were first released. I own all of them except Orikan, so that's what, 8? so To a one, they have require significant repairs and about half of them needed to have a replacement sent. The replacements weren't really better than the originals and in one case (the Overlord), the replacement was somewhat worse. As they were gifts I was in an awkward spot, since I couldn't keep returning them all over and over again.
The material itself is definitely superior to metals for some models (like Terminators, MANZ and other chunky models), but in my anecdotal experience, the awful way in which they are cast renders them garbage, and in cases where they have delicate details, such as staves and such, unfit for sale. I can't blame GWS though - obviously people are buying them, so why even make an effort? Why feet them steak when they'll eat shiat?
On the plus side, I've learned a lot about sculpting with replacing all the detail that was missing or unsalvageable.
Also, I'm not so sure "never gotten a miscast in metal" is true. I spotted a lucky auction on ebay recently for SM sergeants that seem to be OOP (I've never quite seen them anywhere else, they were GWS sealed blister pack so pretty sure legit) and one of those had some pretty significant mold slip as well, and of course in metal it was much harder to repair. I have a lot less experience with metal models than most of you so I'll defer to your experience. I do have a metal SAG and TFG and those both sucked super hard, i think repairing a finecast version of either of those would have been preferable.
@Grimtuff - I agree wholly about the reputation hit. Prior to Finecast I always considered GWS to be a very expensive brand, but also a real premium product where quality errors were rare and their customer services would swifty rectify those few mistakes. I have a lot less confidence in buying their stuff now, and I won't buy Finecast at all since I know it's likely to be messed up, and they may not have a better one to send out. I think a lot less of them over this then I do over all their litigation adventures and price hikes.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
So you're anecdotal evidence is stronger than others; and their probably children or newbs anyway? I think we'll park that one their then.
My own experience is that I've had 20 years of metal models that can be a pig to put together but only very minor flaws if any and one year of finecast models (4?) without any flaws but aren't that difficult to put together. I'm no having an issue with it, some of the other resins out there well that's another story.
Anecdotal yes, but given the huge amount of complaints online and the feedback of actual retailers who have handled a large volume of figures, it is possible to draw some conclusions as to overall product quality.
UltraPrime wrote: Never had a serious problem with Finecast. Much prefer it over metal.
This sums up my experience with Finecast, and if some painter banns it I hardly care to be honest.
This is merely a market dictating terms on how they handle commissions.
From their experience, Finecast appears harder to work with given that there are a few flaws (bubbles and miscasts, not like the whole thing is a riddled swiss cheese plastic husk). These commissioners are paid by the job and if these jobs take too long, it comes out of their bottom line by how many commissions they can accept.
Yeah...that's not true at all. It's not even an extra ten minutes of repairs, and I don't do this for a living like they do.
This is just the OP(who runs "masterminis.blogspot.de") hawking his site and linking to advertisers/partners.
It happens quite often with this individual.
But on topic?
I haven't heard of these "commission painters" before. What great exposure they're getting now!
I know all of them. Some of them do work for several major miniature manufacturers, not just private commissions. They've all been going for years. Their experience pretty much matches mine, and in terms of repair time, Finecast is usually (not always) much much more. When you're in the game of building / painting toy soldiers for a living, time is money. Time you have to spend on fixing stuff is time you either have to charge for or lose money on.
Well, the "it's just growing pains while they learn the new material" and "it's just the first wave that had problems" wells are both dry, so that leaves people who are inclined to whitewash issues with few cards left to play.
I've never heard of any of these guys, but literally the only person I could name who does commissions is Ifalna. So, not really in my wheelhouse either.
Ouze wrote: Well, the "it's just growing pains while they learn the new material" and "it's just the first wave that had problems" wells are both dry, so that leaves people who are inclined to whitewash issues with few cards left to play.
I've never heard of any of these guys, but literally the only person I could name who does commissions is Ifalna. So, not really in my wheelhouse either.
"Hey guys, we can't say the material is new anymore, and we can't say it was just initial wave problems, so what do we say?"
"Whats wrong with not using the same argument over and over again? These people are idiots, they will never know."
"It's been two years."
"Oh."
"Okay, new idea. We make pot shots at their credibility, making claims with no evidence they are simply doing this to get more money, instead of making points against their arguments with evidence."
You joke about "making claims with no evidence" and "doing things to get money", but one person here on Dakka really did go out of their way to accuse Finecast haters of digging around in GW's trash for flawed models just to badmouth them online, and were paid to do so by GW competitors like Mantic and PP.
Sidstyler wrote: You joke about "making claims with no evidence" and "doing things to get money", but one person here on Dakka really did go out of their way to accuse Finecast haters of digging around in GW's trash for flawed models just to badmouth them online, and were paid to do so by GW competitors like Mantic and PP.
Wasn't that the person who claimed Chinese people were paid by their government to support Chinese retailers?
First Finecast kit I got was the single worst quality kit I've Ever gotten. The replacement was one of the best. The two characters I've gotten were rather shoddy, but not as bad as that first unit box. Overall I do not like the material as I find it weak and brittle and quite prone to small/thin parts breaking off.
Would rather have metal than Finecast, but I'd MUCH rather have plastic than both.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
So you're anecdotal evidence is stronger than others; and their probably children or newbs anyway? I think we'll park that one their then.
My own experience is that I've had 20 years of metal models that can be a pig to put together but only very minor flaws if any and one year of finecast models (4?) without any flaws but aren't that difficult to put together. I'm no having an issue with it, some of the other resins out there well that's another story.
You're right, some of the other stuff out there is bad as well - the FoW tanks in particular (when they first moved production to Malaysia or wherever it was) had a real drop in quality, although I think there was enough of a stink about it that the new releases seem to have sorted this out.
Personally I've regarded Finecast as something of a mixed bag - it's not a complete disaster, but certainly a step down from metal in terms of the final quality of the product, and I think has done damage to GW within the industry at least, and probably for a lot of collectors. . Like many here, I grew up with metal and so I'm perfectly happy rolling my sleeves up and giving it a go. Ultimately you won't notice if a finished product is made from the stuff, but you will notice if it has bingo-wings (like an Asmodai miniature I saw a while ago had).
In any case - money talks. If these guys aren't taking FC on board any more, it must be sufficiently bad for them to be prepared to make such a statement. Money lost by having to spend time repairing shoddy production is obviously greater than the money they would make from creating commission pieces in FC in the first place.
Sigh... I am still in wonder that Finecast has people defending it... what are we? 2 years in? The opinion of both stores and the professional painting community is nearly universal that it adds hours of frustrating prep or returned product for little to no gain.
I am under the impression that people still loving finecast and claiming it is better than metal (barring models that were too heavy as metals to put together easily) have to be either:
A) Insanely, insanely lucky with their purchases
B) Completely and totally immune to evidence
C) The absolutely most amazing marketing audience ever and I should be taking their names down.
Yes you could say the above is condescending but we are well past the point in the evidence cycle in my opinion where the matter was particularly up for debate anymore. Finecast may have been good if it wasn't for the atrocious lack of QC and casting consistency, as it stands, the risk of getting a dud model even if the number is only 20% makes it a giant pain and a big risk to pros and stores, and frankly, if you have standards, the average gamer as well.
MajorTom11 wrote: Sigh... I am still in wonder that Finecast has people defending it... what are we? 2 years in? The opinion of both stores and the professional painting community is nearly universal that it adds hours of frustrating prep or returned product for little to no gain.
I am under the impression that people still loving finecast and claiming it is better than metal (barring models that were too heavy as metals to put together easily) have to be either:
A) Insanely, insanely lucky with their purchases
B) Completely and totally immune to evidence
C) The absolutely most amazing marketing audience ever and I should be taking their names down.
Yes you could say the above is condescending but we are well past the point in the evidence cycle in my opinion where the matter was particularly up for debate anymore. Finecast may have been good if it wasn't for the atrocious lack of QC and casting consistency, as it stands, the risk of getting a dud model even if the number is only 20% makes it a giant pain and a big risk to pros and stores, and frankly, if you have standards, the average gamer as well.
Finecast problems? Nahhhhh its a wonderful material that is competing for the last slot side by side with the worst blind bat garage casters outfit in the world... I think GW will win this one!
Well as a owner of a now useless Wrack army I can tell you that I had to trade up 18 boxes (90 models) of them in order to get the 28 of that werent flawed. Massive holes, missing parts and bubbles in areas that cannot be properly fixed were common. Then after I finally got my 28 good models I went through hell with weapons snapping.
Then I started with the grotesques, I got 3 and sent them back 4 times each with the problems above with the added plus of the fingers being so flimsy that I had several break while I was painting them....
I'd prefer finecast to metal for the weight difference alone, but I've only bought 2 models in it, and both had issues, coupled with other evidence, i've steered well clear.
Hell look at the prices of Metal models on Ebay, they're rocketing, because it seems to me, other folks are avoiding it too!?
A good idea, but flawed physcially.
I'd mention the daft pricing too, but that's given
I've only purchased 2 Finecast figures, Zahndrek and his buddy Obyron. Zahndrek was great except for the long bit that hangs from his arm had a weak connection to the arm. I snipped it off, filed down the end to give it a flat surface and glued it back on with no problems. Obyron was a different story. His warscythe was bent and nothing that I tried would straighten it out, making it useless. Fortunately, with the new Necron kits, I am able to kitbash the various HQ models and Royal Court members and not have to deal with Finecast crap for my army.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
Nice, you managed to insult both a person's choices AND the people themselves, both based on nothing more concrete than your own questionable opinions and prejudices. Impressive work.
Of course, back in Reality World, quite a few of us have hated metal for two or more decades now; it's harder to convert, thin parts bend ruining your paint job in the process, even the sort of small drops that happen as a result of moving minis around the tabletop can cause chipping of the paint or whole chunks of the model to break off, miscasts were ever-present despite the rose tinted view of metal some people have and made quite a few larger models a complete pain in the arse to assemble, not to mention the much longer cleanup times necessary to properly prep a metal model; flash and mould lines take longer to get rid of, you have to scrub the mini with an abrasive to minimise the chance of the paint chipping off later, you have to painstakingly bend any warped parts back into shape in case they snap off since most are too thin to be pinned properly, the massive gaping chasms to fill in at the joints, etc etc.
Restic has its own set of issues which were made worse for a long while by GW's shoddy quality control, and it's certainly not as nice to work with as hard resin or plastic, but I'll take it over a metal version of a mini any day of the week.
EDIT: And another, impressive.
MajorTom11 wrote: Sigh... I am still in wonder that Finecast has people defending it... what are we? 2 years in? The opinion of both stores and the professional painting community is nearly universal that it adds hours of frustrating prep or returned product for little to no gain.
I am under the impression that people still loving finecast and claiming it is better than metal (barring models that were too heavy as metals to put together easily) have to be either:
A) Insanely, insanely lucky with their purchases
B) Completely and totally immune to evidence
C) The absolutely most amazing marketing audience ever and I should be taking their names down.
Yes you could say the above is condescending but we are well past the point in the evidence cycle in my opinion where the matter was particularly up for debate anymore. Finecast may have been good if it wasn't for the atrocious lack of QC and casting consistency, as it stands, the risk of getting a dud model even if the number is only 20% makes it a giant pain and a big risk to pros and stores, and frankly, if you have standards, the average gamer as well.
Here's a tip mate, if you're about to type out "you could say the above is condescending"(a charitable characterisation, frankly), and you're a mod on a forum on which the number one rule is "be polite", that's probably the point to move your mouse away from the post button and close the tab.
It's a terrible material completely unsuited to the job.
Did you ever have to return them for replacements?
Yup, the one figure 7 times (+4 in-store replacements that weren't suitable). In the end I gave up and let the store guy fix the worst of the damage on the last one and I'll use it as a base for conversions. The other finecast figures haven't been returned but are disturbingly fragile. I'm not going to buy another one under any circumstances, and have been sourcing what I can find in metal.
Would you prefer an all-plastic range over the Finecast minis?
To be honest I'd prefer anything else, even if they moulded it in green-stuff or outsourced the work to the Chinese recasters. I don't think plastic is the ideal solution but it'd be nice if they went to proper resin or something like Reapers Bones, Trollforged or Restic like Mantic uses.
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Tannhauser42 wrote: The problem with Finecast is not the material, but GW's incredibly poor (or total lack of) quality control.
The quality control is certainly poor to the point of appearing non-existent, but a lot of the problems are with the material too; it's just too soft and inconsistent to use for minis, and there have been many reports of seemingly well cast minis collapsing on themselves after a while, due to weaknesses (probably caused by bad mixes). So even if it's cast properly there's no guarantee it's a good mini.
Yodhrin wrote: Of course, back in Reality World, quite a few of us have hated metal for two or more decades now; it's harder to convert, thin parts bend ruining your paint job in the process, even the sort of small drops that happen as a result of moving minis around the tabletop can cause chipping of the paint or whole chunks of the model to break off,
Except resin is an equally poor material for small thin parts. It sags and snaps far too easily. Granted I know how hard it is to straighten a metal bretonnian lance, I'd still rather have to straighten a metal lance than have a sagging resin lance that is prone to snapping off.
miscasts were ever-present despite the rose tinted view of metal some people have and made quite a few larger models a complete pain in the arse to assemble
Yes, miscasts were present, but rare. I had one miscast metal model, an Epic 40k Thunderhawk Gunship in the late 90s.
not to mention the much longer cleanup times necessary to properly prep a metal model; flash and mould lines take longer to get rid of, you have to scrub the mini with an abrasive to minimise the chance of the paint chipping off later,
I've spent more time having to prep the few finecast models than I have almost any equivalent metal model. If you are happy enough with tiny bubbles everywhere and bent parts, sure, finecast is easier to prep, but if you actually want to paint the model to a decent standard you will also waste time filling those bubbles and bending parts back. Now, metal parts would bend as well, but I didn't need to use hot water to bend them back and once they were bent back, they wouldn't rewarp over time like resin does. The "scrub with abrasive" is a bit extreme, just give them a wash with soap and water and you were good... I do the same for my resin parts.
since most are too thin to be pinned properly, the massive gaping chasms to fill in at the joints, etc etc.
"most" is a bit of an exaggeration, yes, thin metal parts were a pain to do right, but so are thin resin parts because they are typically warped and won't just hold their shape if you bend them back and are more prone to snapping.
but I'll take it over a metal version of a mini any day of the week.
It really depends on the model. I have some Forge World stuff I prefer as resin, I prefer my Zoanthrope as resin (because it's too unbalanced as metal), many things are good in neither metal nor resin.
The reason I hate finecast is poor quality control and resin sags and can warp irreversibly. The first is just a problem with GW quality control or manufacturing technique, the latter is a problem with the material itself.
I'd rather spend a few more minutes cleaning mold lines than having to re-sculpt missing parts of the model. Sagging is also an issue. I'd love that new Farsight model, even at the ludicrous price of $50, but I know that even if I get a perfect cast that thing will be kissing the ground when it gets warm enough, because of how top-heavy the model is and the tiny contact point to the base.
And what do these both tell you? Both of them, amongst others (in this thread alone, not to mention the brobdingnagian-sized thread on this very topic on Warseer for example) show that the general prevailing opinion of Finecrap is it is a steaming hunk of gak. Sure, you'll get good casts. But in practically every mature gamer I've met, their opinion of this material ranges from "meh" to "stay the hell away".
The only people who I have seen do they whole "ERMAGERD FINEKERST!" thing are younger gamers; just like Howard said.
Well if GW Q/A would do their proper job, it would get rid of the majority of cases when people open the box/blister to only find miscasts. (I've worked in the automotive industry and I can't tell you how many plastic parts are thrown away to be ground up again due to just minor details).
Then it comes to the material:
For GW they should just focus on plastic. First off you can get about the same detail in plastic as well as in finecast. Lol I really don't get why people are arguing about whether metal or finecast is better, it should be plastic vs. finecast. Mainly because GW is all about customizing your troops and such, which metal is not the best at. But I get the argument between metal and finecast, look at Infinity for example, great looking metal models, but like I said before metal can be hard to model with.
So I agree with the OP statement, for GW it should be all plastic.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
tons is wrong with metal. for a simple and small infantry model, sure metal is fine.
but when GW was selling giant dragons and vehicles made out of it it was pretty terrible.
paint also doesnt like to stick to metal, even primer slides off. after a few years of gaming, if you're not very very careful you can expect your metal paintjob to be chipped up.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
tons is wrong with metal. for a simple and small infantry model, sure metal is fine.
but when GW was selling giant dragons and vehicles made out of it it was pretty terrible.
paint also doesnt like to stick to metal, even primer slides off. after a few years of gaming, if you're not very very careful you can expect your metal paintjob to be chipped up.
The same can be said of Finecrap (but in the opposite direction). What is the point of making infantry out of it? With the larger models, they *should* make certain loadbearing parts and extremities out of metal (just like several other companies); but this would go against the "Finecast is the best in the world, it is the equivalent of the moon landing to tabletop gaming!" that GW touts.
As for the last comment. Well, that's just opinion man. All of my metal models dont explode when I look at them, nor does their paint rub off or get chipped. Good glue and good varnish can go a long way.
Oh no, someone has knocked my metal War Hydra off the table! Darn it, I'm going to have spend hours and hours assembling it again! If only there were an alternative....
Oh no, someone has knocked my metal War Hydra off the table! Darn it, I'm going to have spend hours and hours assembling it again! If only there were an alternative....
/patronising sarcastic tone
Oh no, someone has knocked my much lighter and will therefore fly further Finecrap War Hydra off the table! Darn it, before I even played this game I had to spend hours filling in the gaps that made this thing look like a fething aero bar and bending back the limbs with hot water as GW has crappy QC! If only there were an alternative!.
MajorTom11 wrote: Sigh... I am still in wonder that Finecast has people defending it... what are we? 2 years in? The opinion of both stores and the professional painting community is nearly universal that it adds hours of frustrating prep or returned product for little to no gain.
I am under the impression that people still loving finecast and claiming it is better than metal (barring models that were too heavy as metals to put together easily) have to be either:
A) Insanely, insanely lucky with their purchases
B) Completely and totally immune to evidence
C) The absolutely most amazing marketing audience ever and I should be taking their names down.
Yes you could say the above is condescending but we are well past the point in the evidence cycle in my opinion where the matter was particularly up for debate anymore. Finecast may have been good if it wasn't for the atrocious lack of QC and casting consistency, as it stands, the risk of getting a dud model even if the number is only 20% makes it a giant pain and a big risk to pros and stores, and frankly, if you have standards, the average gamer as well.
Here's a tip mate, if you're about to type out "you could say the above is condescending"(a charitable characterisation, frankly), and you're a mod on a forum on which the number one rule is "be polite", that's probably the point to move your mouse away from the post button and close the tab.
And here is a tip for you sir, you could say the above is condescending. It doesn't mean it is. I need no reminders from you about the rules of this forum thank you very much. The fact that you actually agreed with me, that restic in and of itself is not the problem in principle, it is GW's shoddy quality control, makes me laugh a bit, are you not then condescending yourself? I have a problem with people who 2 years in still think they can seperate the issues, restic and quality control, when it comes to finecast. We can no longer call it phase 1 or growing pains, so the quality control in my opinion must now be taken as an intrinsic, static issue with finecast until something changes. If finecast was well cast, and the models designed/converted to it were made with the material's strength in mind (both aesthetically and structurally) I would have absolutely not problem buying it. In fact it is much easier to convert which is great!
However, personally, I prefer metal if I don't plan on converting. Ya it has it's own liabilities but overall, at lest you were pretty much guaranteed to know exactly what you were getting into most of the time. That however of course is up for debate according to personal preference. I however don't think bubbled and misaligned casting are up for debate at all... they suck. Some people, not saying you mind, but some people defend it even with those flaws, and point to liquid GS and other things as if they were some kind of reason not to be annoyed that you have to either make a return or work for an hour or 3 just to get started on the model with a basecoat.
Just because there is a MOD tag next to my name doesn't mean I don't have personal opinions, and nor does it mean I am being extra rude or rude at all for giving a general opinion. There was no name calling, I simply expressed my disbelief that anyone, 2 years into this crap, would still either be pretending the issues don't exist and/or that they don't matter. I think that is a pretty objective observation at this point. Stores don't carry it, either because they got fed-up previously or because GW now wants to avoid sending finecast blisters due to the huge expenses of the multiple returns... Now GW wants to sell the blisters direct as much as possible so they can take a greater profit and absorb the return costs a bit better. A significant portion of the community (gamers) avoid it either by reputation or experience. Pro painters as we see are jumping ship at an astounding rate. All I'm saying is can we at least not pretend there is no issue here, even if you personally like the stuff lol!
For the record, I do use FC myself, usually when I will be hacking the model up for a lot of conversion (blood angels and space marines), if I plan to just do a simple tabletop and leave it at that (my necrons) or if I have no choice (Open day model 2012). So far, I would say about 30% of the 20 models I have were acceptable. 50% had relatively minor issues but took at least half an hour to correct them, and 20% were wtf happend bad. I know what I'm getting into when I make a purchase though, especially online. I can definitely say that I miss metal for the thinner bits like swords etc...
...
Of course, back in Reality World, quite a few of us have hated metal for two or more decades now; it's harder to convert
Not really, with correct tools. A dremel (milling bit, a few grind stones, brass brush, usual HSS jobber bits), good set of files, decent knife, decent snips.
, thin parts bend ruining your paint job in the process,
Far less chance of bending than most resins, and substantially less chance of snapping. Edit: High lead content alloys do bend easily, if left loose, rattling around in a box.
even the sort of small drops that happen as a result of moving minis around the tabletop can cause chipping of the paint
No. Prep surface correctly (wash, dry, prime), put on a protective coat with something decent (I like Future / Klear floor polish) and then finishing coats.
or whole chunks of the model to break off,
Not if assembled properly. Pins where necessary, *decent* superglue or epoxy adhesive.
miscasts were ever-present despite the rose tinted view of metal some people have
Over 25 years I've been collecting and painting. 'Ever present' implies constant. Bluntly false.
and made quite a few larger models a complete pain in the arse to assemble,
Yes, some models are problematic, but usually as a result of off-balance design rather than simple size. Oddly though the toughest metal model I ever had to mess with was Urien Rackarth. Larger models tended to be better suited for pinning. I'm currently working a 110mm Poste Militaire 'Sailor' Malan (WW2 Fighter Pilot). It's huge, it's metal, and it's not a problem. Same true for the old Marauder / Citadel metal giants.
not to mention the much longer cleanup times necessary to properly prep a metal model; flash and mould lines take longer to get rid of, you have to scrub the mini with an abrasive to minimise the chance of the paint chipping off later, you have to painstakingly bend any warped parts back into shape in case they snap off since most are too thin to be pinned properly, the massive gaping chasms to fill in at the joints, etc etc.
No:
Fixing a bent metal sword / lance / banner pole takes possibly 2 minutes of 'pinch/pull' straightening. Fixing a bent resin part (pre-cure pull warping) can be impossible.
Cleanup of flash on metal can be done VERY easily with a soft wire brush and dremel, even into recesses. Flash on plastics and resins can actually be much more difficult to remove due to the softness of the material. A good knife and set of needle files can also do wonders. On resins, files are often best avoided unless the resin is of the harder type. Home made emery sticks tend to work better. Finecast is a very soft material and does not handle abrasives at all well. Similarly, the PVC used by CMON does not handle abrasives well, however the amount of flash and cutting back on those in my limited experience of them seems far less to deal with. Especially when coupled with properly filled moulds and bubble-free material.
Gap filling is the same on any model, and is a factor of the engineering of the mould and casting process rather than the material.
Restic has its own set of issues which were made worse for a long while by GW's shoddy quality control, and it's certainly not as nice to work with as hard resin or plastic, but I'll take it over a metal version of a mini any day of the week.
Finecast is not a restic. It is a two-part urethane resin. 'Made worse for a long while' implies the issues have been fixed, or diminished in frequency. This does not appear to be the case. Restics (plastic/resin hybrids) as used by PP and Mantic seem to behave more similarly to a very hard PVC.
Any other complete nonsense you'd like me to refute?
Oh no, someone has knocked my metal War Hydra off the table!
You probably shouldn't let people do that. Or put large, expensive models like that so close to the table edge to begin with.
That said, I don't imagine very many large, expensive kits like dragons, vehicles etc. surviving a fall to the ground regardless of what they're made of. Anyone with a fleet of plastic valkyries want to let them dangle half-off the table edge and tell me what happens if/when they collide with the ground? I imagine the one thing they won't do is explode into several pieces and require hours of fixing, since plastic is such a fething wonder material that can survive nuclear blasts and won't even need a touch-up after the fact.
Also, what would happen to your Finecast hydra? I can imagine heads and tails breaking off much the same, and not just at the joins. That's going to take "hours and hours" to fix since you'll likely have to use some green stuff around the new cracks in the center of their necks, and then there's the possibility of little chunks breaking off the more brittle bits, like their giant spikes, noses, teeth, claws, other kinds of fiddly details. No, if I had to take a chance with models falling onto the floor I'd much rather have metal in that case, too. I'll risk wasting "hours and hours" gluing the fething heads back on and doing a little touching up over having to do much more painstaking repairs for a brittle-ass Finecast model.
Sounds like a reasonable policy. It's considerate really, commission painters don't want to charge more for required work with a lower-quality miniature.
Oh no, someone has knocked my metal War Hydra off the table! Darn it, I'm going to have spend hours and hours assembling it again! If only there were an alternative....
/patronising sarcastic tone
Oh no, someone has knocked my much lighter and will therefore fly further Finecrap War Hydra off the table! Darn it, before I even played this game I had to spend hours filling in the gaps that made this thing look like a fething aero bar and bending back the limbs with hot water as GW has crappy QC! If only there were an alternative!.
See I can do it too.
1) These are accidents, not people playing cricket. Neither is going to fly very far and the distance it does is completely irrelevant.
2) As someone who's assembled many finecast models since they've come out, I can tell you going to this extent is rarely necessary. True, it sometimes is, which brings me to point number...
3) Maybe you did spend hours filling in the gaps, but if someone knocks it off the table, you're not going to have to do it all again. Whereas, with a metal model, it will break and you will have to spend ages reassembling it.
Oh no, someone has knocked my metal War Hydra off the table!
You probably shouldn't let people do that. Or put large, expensive models like that so close to the table edge to begin with.
That said, I don't imagine very many large, expensive kits like dragons, vehicles etc. surviving a fall to the ground regardless of what they're made of.
Sadly, accidents do happen and, in fact, Hydras work well on the flanks. It's true that the size of the model isn't really that relevant. However, if I knocked a metal infantry model off the table, it would be far more likely to break than its finecast counterpart.
It seems to me the only people who absolutely hate metal are those who don't know how to work with it. Once you become even moderately competent with pinning, and use a decent glue (araldite for me), you'll be coming apart before that model does.
The only thing I'll say finecast has going for it is ironically enough the cleanup time. It can take an age to sand away all the mold lines on a metal mini, with finecast they're usually gone with a couple of scrapes.
V1ND4LOO wrote: It seems to me the only people who absolutely hate metal are those who don't know how to work with it. Once you become even moderately competent with pinning, and use a decent glue (araldite for me), you'll be coming apart before that model does.
The only thing I'll say finecast has going for it is ironically enough the cleanup time. It can take an age to sand away all the mold lines on a metal mini, with finecast they're usually gone with a couple of scrapes.
I much prefer finecast to metal because I would rather fill a few holes than have to resculpt (attempt to anyway) half the model.
V1ND4LOO wrote: It seems to me the only people who absolutely hate metal are those who don't know how to work with it. Once you become even moderately competent with pinning, and use a decent glue (araldite for me), you'll be coming apart before that model does.
The only thing I'll say finecast has going for it is ironically enough the cleanup time. It can take an age to sand away all the mold lines on a metal mini, with finecast they're usually gone with a couple of scrapes.
I much prefer finecast to metal because I would rather fill a few holes than have to resculpt (attempt to anyway) half the model.
Yes, because that is such a common occurrence in metal...
Sigvatr wrote: Finecast > metal by a long shot, despite the price of course but that's not related to the material. I fecking despise metal. It's the worse thing that could happen to your miniatures.
You must be new or something. EIther that or your going to have to explain that one.
Metal is durable. Lasts quite some time, forever. And has great detail in comparison, and less chance of miscast. Now its much harder to convert, but if you cut your teeth on kitbashing metal, its easy after a time.
Anyway, what are we supposed to discuss here? The lack of business sense coming out from a few miniature painting companies?
The only lack of business sense seems to be yours. When someone of a more professional caliber, who does it for money says finecast takes more time to prep, or comes to them badly AND cant get as great a paint job as with other materials like plastic or metal......I'd take their word over yours.
Anyway, what are we supposed to discuss here? The lack of business sense coming out from a few miniature painting companies?
The only lack of business sense seems to be yours. When someone of a more professional caliber, who does it for money says finecast takes more time to prep, or comes to them badly AND cant get as great a paint job as with other materials like plastic or metal......I'd take their word over yours.
Esp. coming from someone with HMV as their name criticizing business acumen.
Personnaly I have around 20 finecast models, nearly all characters and I have had to return 1 and have a few issues with another one, and that is it rest have been fine. The one returned (pedro) was missing his arm so mis packaged rather then other issues and belial has the tip of his sword missing.
I prefer finecast to metal, but you know what its my opinion from my experince .
The Shadow wrote: However, if I knocked a metal infantry model off the table, it would be far more likely to break than its finecast counterpart.
That depends entirely on the model. If the model is large but with small joins, then the joins are more likely to fail on a metal model... though realistically if you're using decent glue it takes a lot to break metal joins on infantry sized models.
If the model has any thin shafts or thin anything, metal is likely to bend where finecast is likely to snap. One of my friends who was very careless with his models was constantly dropping his metal models and the spears just bent and he'd bend them back again. Not great because the paint would come off where it was bent back and forth, but better than completely snapping IMO.
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MarkyMark wrote: Personnaly I have around 20 finecast models, nearly all characters and I have had to return 1 and have a few issues with another one, and that is it rest have been fine. The one returned (pedro) was missing his arm so mis packaged rather then other issues and belial has the tip of his sword missing.
I prefer finecast to metal, but you know what its my opinion from my experince .
You must have amazing luck or be very good at cherry picking models. I can randomly pick 20 models off the shelves at my local GW and see a significant proportion with serious flaws and pretty much all of them will have small bubbles if nothing else.
V1ND4LOO wrote: It seems to me the only people who absolutely hate metal are those who don't know how to work with it. Once you become even moderately competent with pinning, and use a decent glue (araldite for me), you'll be coming apart before that model does.
The only thing I'll say finecast has going for it is ironically enough the cleanup time. It can take an age to sand away all the mold lines on a metal mini, with finecast they're usually gone with a couple of scrapes.
I much prefer finecast to metal because I would rather fill a few holes than have to resculpt (attempt to anyway) half the model.
Yes, because that is such a common occurrence in metal...
Yeah I would call every larger than infantry model a common occurrence, wouldn't you?
Out of interest MarkyMark how much of your stuff is painted? I find I often don't notice stuff (especially spoiled minor details) until it actually comes to painting, of course the obvious one being mold-lines but sometimes missing detail also.
Taking a look at MajorTom's gallery of miniatures as well,you can see how it's possible to weigh different types of 'anecdotal' evidence from different commentators.
Krellnus wrote: Yeah I would call every larger than infantry model a common occurrence, wouldn't you?
Erm, no? I can only think of one significant metal miscast in the years I've been collecting and that was an Epic 40k Thunderhawk where the left and right sides of it didn't line up. That seems to be the main miscast you find in metal models, the two halves being misaligned.
Actually, there were some metal Tyranids that I bought 2nd hand that had some odd cracking of the metal in crevices and a couple of spots where the surface texture was randomly rougher (which it shouldn't have been). Those were indeed strange, I have no idea if they were GW miscasts, if the previous owner had done something crazy with them or maybe they were recasts, I really don't know. As I didn't buy them brand new, I can't blame GW as I don't know if the flaws originated from GW casting or something else.
The Shadow wrote: However, if I knocked a metal infantry model off the table, it would be far more likely to break than its finecast counterpart.
That depends entirely on the model. If the model is large but with small joins, then the joins are more likely to fail on a metal model... though realistically if you're using decent glue it takes a lot to break metal joins on infantry sized models.
If the model has any thin shafts or thin anything, metal is likely to bend where finecast is likely to snap. One of my friends who was very careless with his models was constantly dropping his metal models and the spears just bent and he'd bend them back again. Not great because the paint would come off where it was bent back and forth, but better than completely snapping IMO.
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MarkyMark wrote: Personnaly I have around 20 finecast models, nearly all characters and I have had to return 1 and have a few issues with another one, and that is it rest have been fine. The one returned (pedro) was missing his arm so mis packaged rather then other issues and belial has the tip of his sword missing.
I prefer finecast to metal, but you know what its my opinion from my experince .
You must have amazing luck or be very good at cherry picking models. I can randomly pick 20 models off the shelves at my local GW and see a significant proportion with serious flaws and pretty much all of them will have small bubbles if nothing else.
Cherry picking nope, all ordered online or in store at 4tk for a few of the models
I've had about 3 Finecast problems out of upwards of 60 Finecast models. Every model I own that was designed for Finecast looks great. Worst culprit was a short pour on a Jabberscythe that has less to do with the material and more to do with the pouring.
cincydooley wrote: I've had about 3 Finecast problems out of upwards of 60 Finecast models.
I suggest you start a swap shop thread, offering your model picking services to the Dakka community. I suspect quite a few people would be willing to subsidize what is, anecdotally, the best hand in the HHHobby at picking flawless models.
We've got a "2 out of 20 models messed up", now we've got a "3 out of 60 models messed up", do I hear a "4 out of 400"? Going once...
V1ND4LOO wrote: It seems to me the only people who absolutely hate metal are those who don't know how to work with it. Once you become even moderately competent with pinning, and use a decent glue (araldite for me), you'll be coming apart before that model does.
The only thing I'll say finecast has going for it is ironically enough the cleanup time. It can take an age to sand away all the mold lines on a metal mini, with finecast they're usually gone with a couple of scrapes.
I much prefer finecast to metal because I would rather fill a few holes than have to resculpt (attempt to anyway) half the model.
Yes, because that is such a common occurrence in metal...
Yeah I would call every larger than infantry model a common occurrence, wouldn't you?
You've had to resculpt most of any large metal model?
Okay, I'm not saying your a liar, but....
I don't believe you for a second.
Unless you took some time to slam a hammer of said model before you began to assemble it.
The amount of green stuffing I've had to do with Finecast is significantly less than I've had to do with metals. Additionally, large models like Ork Wyvern were just awful in metal and are significantly easier to deal with in Finecast.
It's not about them being flawless, Ouze, it's about them having the same amount of clean up as a metal mode, only easier to deal with. I expect to have to file mould lines on a model. With Finecast it's much easier, and IMO less prevalent.
I have both longstrike and Dark Strider and both look fantastic.
I have quite a few Metal infantry models, and I have NEVER had to add greenstuff. It's always the issue of filing down mold and vent lines. But I'd rather do that than try and sculpt back the fine detail of Asmodai's shoulderpad!!!
A well cast resin model is at least the equal of a well cast metal model.
It is easier to cut and to customize.
It is easier to glue.
It is a lot lighter, and a lot easier to tote around.
But it would not surprise me to find out that resin models have more miscasts by at least 50% - it needs more QA than metal miniatures do.
I do not think that Finecast is a good resin - soft, and more prone to bubbles, or the casters just don't know how to handle the material.
It is inconsistent in regards to hardness, and maybe melting point.
I do not much like it.
If anything it needs better QA than most other resins, more willingness to toss a bad cast into the dust heap.
Sadly, this does not happen.
More importantly, there are just some Finecast molds that need to be completely retooled, with better gates for resin flow.
There are certain Chaos Space Marines that seem to be missing the same bits over, and over, and over.
If I were relying on a consistent product for purposes of maintaining a painting business? I'd ban Finecast as well - not because it is always bad - it isn't, but because it is bad enough, often enough, to throw my schedule into a wood chipper. Until you see a model you have little idea as to how long it will take to prep the model, before you can even start to paint it.
It is very hard to plan around 'I don't know'.
I used to paint miniatures for money, even now I take some commissions. I am very, very glad that I do not need to depend on painting Finecast to buy my daily bread.
I definitely prefer resin in general over any other material.
That said, having bought a few Finecast items, the quality isn't great. What needs to be said about it, has already been said.
If GW upgraded their Finecast quality/quality control to Forgeworld standards at a minimum, then it might actually be great to work with.
Just look at resin from Kingdom Death, or Studio McVey - that's quality right there.
As for the artists in question, most of them rely on word-of-mouth to 'advertise'. If you haven't heard of them, that's likely because you've not had any cause to look for them, and they aren't hyper famous like Natalya Melnik, or Jennifer Haley, or Victoria Lamb, or anyone of those.
That doesn't mean they're bad. Atacam paints for Bushido, for instance, and that work isn't half bad.
Krellnus wrote: Yeah I would call every larger than infantry model a common occurrence, wouldn't you?
Erm, no? I can only think of one significant metal miscast in the years I've been collecting and that was an Epic 40k Thunderhawk where the left and right sides of it didn't line up. That seems to be the main miscast you find in metal models, the two halves being misaligned.
Actually, there were some metal Tyranids that I bought 2nd hand that had some odd cracking of the metal in crevices and a couple of spots where the surface texture was randomly rougher (which it shouldn't have been). Those were indeed strange, I have no idea if they were GW miscasts, if the previous owner had done something crazy with them or maybe they were recasts, I really don't know. As I didn't buy them brand new, I can't blame GW as I don't know if the flaws originated from GW casting or something else.
Ever had a great eagle? Good luck getting those wings to align.
Got something that comes in two parts? Have fun trying to get them to line up.
Oh that arm isn't a ball joint? Have fun trying to get a flat, even surface to line up the joint.
Oh you wanted a dragon for your army? Hey you want that joint to hold up under its own weight? Brake out your paperclips.
Krellnus wrote: Yeah I would call every larger than infantry model a common occurrence, wouldn't you?
Erm, no? I can only think of one significant metal miscast in the years I've been collecting and that was an Epic 40k Thunderhawk where the left and right sides of it didn't line up. That seems to be the main miscast you find in metal models, the two halves being misaligned.
Actually, there were some metal Tyranids that I bought 2nd hand that had some odd cracking of the metal in crevices and a couple of spots where the surface texture was randomly rougher (which it shouldn't have been). Those were indeed strange, I have no idea if they were GW miscasts, if the previous owner had done something crazy with them or maybe they were recasts, I really don't know. As I didn't buy them brand new, I can't blame GW as I don't know if the flaws originated from GW casting or something else.
Ever had a great eagle? Good luck getting those wings to align.
Have one, fit just fine - but I do not know which version of the Great Eagle you are writing about.
Got something that comes in two parts? Have fun trying to get them to line up.
I do - often. Generally no real problem.
Oh that arm isn't a ball joint? Have fun trying to get a flat, even surface to line up the joint.
I do, often, almost never a problem.
Oh you wanted a dragon for your army?
I do, lots, from many companies. Very, very seldom is there a problem.
Hey you want that joint to hold up under its own weight? Brake out your paperclips.
At last! A legitimate complaint! Yes, you do have to pin large metal models. Not exactly hard, but necessary, and does take time. But the time is predictable, since I can look at the number of joins and plan for what joins will need pinning.
After reading your post.... Where are you buying models if they are giving you that much trouble? 'Cause, really... I have painted a lot of models over the years, large and small, and I really can't say that most of any models, resin or metal need that much work in prep.
I can say that there are more resin models where I am more likely to go and send it back rather than try to salvage it, but aside from GW it is neither more nor less of a problem than with metals.
For the dozen or so Finecast models I have purchased (and let it be noted my love for metal minis could not be contained within a single Shakespearian sonnet) I have had to return each individual model (several of these kits were units such as the Farseer+Seer Council and Techmarine+Servitors) at least 3 times if not 4. This is for large models (Ogre Maneater Paymaster) all the way to smaller ones such as the Skink Priest with Feathered Cloak.
The material has no heft, sure it bounces like plastic but it also warps under even the smallest amount of pressure if it is in excess of a period of 24 hours. With a metal model, you just bend that into place and if you're smart, to stop the paint chipping you'll have applied some matte coating, with a finecast model you are required to put that in warm water (expanding the surface material and causing further damage to the paint even if overcoated) until it softens up.
It isn't exactly hard for temperatures in even the coastal regions of Australia to reach the point where the models in your case will soften and warp. If I want my character models to hold good detail, it will not be in a finecast medium. If you want all the benefits of plastic for your detailed characters, kitbash for the love of all that is holy. It is better than dealing with a material whose benefits are outweighed by a greater cost whilst maintaining the same number of faults as the more suitable metal medium.
As for cast sliding (where pieces don't line up and such due to the mold's wear over time). That issue is just as prevalent if not more so in finecast than in metal.
When you've put together old metal CD Flamers with their miniscule ball joints via pinning, we can talk about the issues of pinning. Clearing all the excess residue off a Finecast model takes just as long if not longer than the entire process.
Krellnus wrote: Yeah I would call every larger than infantry model a common occurrence, wouldn't you?
Erm, no? I can only think of one significant metal miscast in the years I've been collecting and that was an Epic 40k Thunderhawk where the left and right sides of it didn't line up. That seems to be the main miscast you find in metal models, the two halves being misaligned.
Actually, there were some metal Tyranids that I bought 2nd hand that had some odd cracking of the metal in crevices and a couple of spots where the surface texture was randomly rougher (which it shouldn't have been). Those were indeed strange, I have no idea if they were GW miscasts, if the previous owner had done something crazy with them or maybe they were recasts, I really don't know. As I didn't buy them brand new, I can't blame GW as I don't know if the flaws originated from GW casting or something else.
Sometimes with older metal models (unpainted) which are exposed to consistent handling/poor storage you tend to get something along the lines of acid wear which may explain the rougher surface. Regardless, I don't know if we'll be able to say that any finecast model will have even retained its basic shape after 20 years!
Oh, but there are problems with the material. It doesn't tolerate heat well at all. I had the 25th Anniversary model in a display case and the sunny summer day was enough to cause the banner pole to droop over so the banner was touching the base. Like all resin casts, it is prone to air bubbles and obliteration of detail. Unlike most resin casts, GW puts a heck of a lot of channels into their molds and this takes a lot of clean up in order to get them all (and not in a fun, Pokemon kind of way). Still, I prefer it to metal when the model isn't as susceptible to disfigurement from from heat .
It hasn't gotten any better, your standards have just grown gak glasses.
Since you've stopped buying GW products altogether, how would you know?
Not trying to start somethig, but when someone is vocal about giving up GW products and then comes and out says Finecast is still crap, I'm curious as to how they're making a claim like that outside of second or third hand information, which... isn't user experience.
It hasn't gotten any better, your standards have just grown gak glasses.
Since you've stopped buying GW products altogether, how would you know?
Not trying to start somethig, but when someone is vocal about giving up GW products and then comes and out says Finecast is still crap, I'm curious as to how they're making a claim like that outside of second or third hand information, which... isn't user experience.
Not to speak for him, but I actively look at products, even though I don't buy them...and from time to time I still get cornered into fixing finecast miscasts (and Forge World to boot). A lot of the issues could be dealt with, stronger resins that tolerate heat are easy to come by and not much more expensive than regular resins (I use resin for making my masters for making molds from...and those resins withstand the pressure and heat of vulcanizing...and that is the black organic molds, not the newer nicem low temperature rubber). Even regular Hobby Lobby, off the shelf Alumilite can withstand vulcanizing in a Nicem mold...I can only imagine what a Finecast model would look like following that process (something a kin to bubblegum off the bottom of my shoe I would guess).
The first 6 months were horrendous with Finecast...they improved some after that, in no small part due to consumer complaints. However, they are far from being trouble free. For a contract painter who is working with scheduling and possible deadlines, the extra time spent cleaning Finecast versus plastic or metal make it an undesireable material. If you need to exchange one of the many models that are direct only (or just not able to exchange locally for any number of reasons) then you knock a project back by a week or two, which messes with your scheduling even more. I can fully understand why some painters would rather just cut Finecast out. The pay for time for many of them is quite low, and many would rather not have to calculate fees per figure based on how much clean up might need to be done (not to mention the risks of shipping in hot summer months when a package might reach 150+ degrees in the back of a delivery truck).
Breotan wrote: Oh, but there are problems with the material. It doesn't tolerate heat well at all. I had the 25th Anniversary model in a display case and the sunny summer day was enough to cause the banner pole to droop over so the banner was touching the base
JFC. That's equal parts outlandish and horrible.
Is it, uh, in an attic or something? I mean, how hot can it get in Seattle?
Oh I'm not saying anything about commision painters - what they will and won't work with it entirely up to them.
Just the statement of 'finecast is still crap' from someone who quite proudly claims he doesn't play GW games or buys their products anymore.
As you said, Finecast improved after the first 6 months. Yes, I still see issues with it. I still see issues with other manufacturers as well. My Morgana from McVey studios has a miscast (which is odd considering it's a limited run model - you'd think they'd personally inspect them with such a small amount produced) - not enough that I'd complain about, because miscasts with resin just happen.
I remember a time when metal models were the only way to go that when someone got a miscast they would quite often keep them (because miscasts were so rare - and the ones that were around were quite often hilarious) and use them with a small modification as a more characterful version of the mini.
Sadly the advent of finecast seems to have changed this, but meh, I'm still using and buying 'whitish metal ' minis.
If detail is missing on miniatures due to bubbling , it is an unnaceptable mini. If it is happening on a regular basis it is an unnaceptable manufacturing/design process. It is that simple.
metal minis need pinning people, a small drill and a pin, that's all. (oh and glue )
If these professionals don't want to work with gak product i don't see why they should. I don't buy a box of tomatoes and find 20% of them are rubbish , i think the same should apply to miniatures.
i've said no Finecast since day 1...
miscasts aside even, the softness of the material and the strange droops and bends make me stay away...
as a painter charging top dollar, there is no way i am going to paint a mini that droops or bends of it's own accord...
i spend a lot of time prepping a mini already, so i don't need a mini looking like Swiss Cheese adding more time to the prep...
seeing all the guys who have heated parts, straightened them, and then had the bend come right back is my biggest issue...
it really sucks to have boycotted Finecast, since some of the sculpts are amazing...
i want the character models that have come out in the last two years, but if it's not plastic or metal GW doesn't get my money...
i've quit taking commissions, but all my minis will still be for sale, so now the issue is even bigger...
obviously, new releases sell well, but almost every cool new sculpt is coming out in Finecast, really limiting my market...
luckily i have 25 years worth of cool metal minis just waiting for paint...
unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
cheers
jah
p.s. both Atacam and Arsies are amazing painters...
check 'em out if you don't know their work...
jah-joshua wrote: unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
There is actually. Finecast has always been a stop gap to a full plastic range. That's why we're now seeing things like generic characters as single pose plastics. Granted, Fantasy is getting the lions share of these, but they're making their way to 40k every release.
It hasn't gotten any better, your standards have just grown gak glasses.
Since you've stopped buying GW products altogether, how would you know?
Not trying to start somethig, but when someone is vocal about giving up GW products and then comes and out says Finecast is still crap, I'm curious as to how they're making a claim like that outside of second or third hand information, which... isn't user experience.
For me it would be called 'looking into the blister, and seeing that there are still problems'....
This might even be a big portion of why the purchase does not take place....
Well regardless of the individual experience of dakka forumites, some professional painters have decided that finecast simply takes too much time to prepare.
Usually people that hate metal models simply use superglue instead of a good 2 part epoxy or do not have the skill or tools for pinning.
My metal models are going to last a hell of a lot longer than the finecrap versions.
jah-joshua wrote: unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
There is actually. Finecast has always been a stop gap to a full plastic range. That's why we're now seeing things like generic characters as single pose plastics. Granted, Fantasy is getting the lions share of these, but they're making their way to 40k every release.
The downside to this of course is that plastic, for all of its improvement over the years, is still not able to reach the heights of detail presented by resin or metal. I know you collect Infinity Loki and so know about the level of detail on those miniatures, I would say probably at least 50% (possibly bits on every model) wouldn't be possible in plastic. A lot of GW's character models are the same.
As has been mentioned also, there are technical constraints placed on the sculptor by plastic. Metal/resin offers a wider canvas for the sculptor in terms of realising their artistic vision rather than being constrained by the material.
Not to detract from your argument of course that GW might well be taking this route, and it would certainly explain why they have allowed Finecast to remain on sale for so long in its current state, if it is indeed just a stop-gap measure. I can also imagine mass-produced plastic sprues having a far lower production cost (once the sprues have been initially tooled), and the whole lot could just be made in the far East.
jah-joshua wrote: unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
There is actually. Finecast has always been a stop gap to a full plastic range. That's why we're now seeing things like generic characters as single pose plastics. Granted, Fantasy is getting the lions share of these, but they're making their way to 40k every release.
The downside to this of course is that plastic, for all of its improvement over the years, is still not able to reach the heights of detail presented by resin or metal. I know you collect Infinity Loki and so know about the level of detail on those miniatures, I would say probably at least 50% (possibly bits on every model) wouldn't be possible in plastic. A lot of GW's character models are the same.
As has been mentioned also, there are technical constraints placed on the sculptor by plastic. Metal/resin offers a wider canvas for the sculptor in terms of realising their artistic vision rather than being constrained by the material.
Not to detract from your argument of course that GW might well be taking this route, and it would certainly explain why they have allowed Finecast to remain on sale for so long in its current state, if it is indeed just a stop-gap measure. I can also imagine mass-produced plastic sprues having a far lower production cost (once the sprues have been initially tooled), and the whole lot could just be made in the far East.
In terms of detail retention, yes, plastic is just as good as metal or resin, I have some superb 1/48 Italeri ground crew to back that up. Funny that the corresponding Tamiya kit were pretty bad. This said, you are correct in that there are technical issues (meaning the models have to be cleverly cut) in terms of the design. This is made a lot easier to deal with by modern CAD and CNC machining methods. However, it still takes time and a particular skill set to do. For small run stuff, this sort of work is inefficient compared to meal/resin casting methods, where the sculpt can pretty much go straight to the mould room.
Pacific wrote: I can also imagine mass-produced plastic sprues having a far lower production cost (once the sprues have been initially tooled), and the whole lot could just be made in the far East.
MajorTom11 wrote: Sigh... I am still in wonder that Finecast has people defending it... what are we? 2 years in? The opinion of both stores and the professional painting community is nearly universal that it adds hours of frustrating prep or returned product for little to no gain.
I am under the impression that people still loving finecast and claiming it is better than metal (barring models that were too heavy as metals to put together easily) have to be either:
A) Insanely, insanely lucky with their purchases
B) Completely and totally immune to evidence
C) The absolutely most amazing marketing audience ever and I should be taking their names down.
Yes you could say the above is condescending but we are well past the point in the evidence cycle in my opinion where the matter was particularly up for debate anymore. Finecast may have been good if it wasn't for the atrocious lack of QC and casting consistency, as it stands, the risk of getting a dud model even if the number is only 20% makes it a giant pain and a big risk to pros and stores, and frankly, if you have standards, the average gamer as well.
Here's a tip mate, if you're about to type out "you could say the above is condescending"(a charitable characterisation, frankly), and you're a mod on a forum on which the number one rule is "be polite", that's probably the point to move your mouse away from the post button and close the tab.
And here is a tip for you sir, you could say the above is condescending. It doesn't mean it is. I need no reminders from you about the rules of this forum thank you very much. The fact that you actually agreed with me, that restic in and of itself is not the problem in principle, it is GW's shoddy quality control, makes me laugh a bit, are you not then condescending yourself? I have a problem with people who 2 years in still think they can seperate the issues, restic and quality control, when it comes to finecast. We can no longer call it phase 1 or growing pains, so the quality control in my opinion must now be taken as an intrinsic, static issue with finecast until something changes. If finecast was well cast, and the models designed/converted to it were made with the material's strength in mind (both aesthetically and structurally) I would have absolutely not problem buying it. In fact it is much easier to convert which is great!
However, personally, I prefer metal if I don't plan on converting. Ya it has it's own liabilities but overall, at lest you were pretty much guaranteed to know exactly what you were getting into most of the time. That however of course is up for debate according to personal preference. I however don't think bubbled and misaligned casting are up for debate at all... they suck. Some people, not saying you mind, but some people defend it even with those flaws, and point to liquid GS and other things as if they were some kind of reason not to be annoyed that you have to either make a return or work for an hour or 3 just to get started on the model with a basecoat.
Just because there is a MOD tag next to my name doesn't mean I don't have personal opinions, and nor does it mean I am being extra rude or rude at all for giving a general opinion. There was no name calling, I simply expressed my disbelief that anyone, 2 years into this crap, would still either be pretending the issues don't exist and/or that they don't matter. I think that is a pretty objective observation at this point. Stores don't carry it, either because they got fed-up previously or because GW now wants to avoid sending finecast blisters due to the huge expenses of the multiple returns... Now GW wants to sell the blisters direct as much as possible so they can take a greater profit and absorb the return costs a bit better. A significant portion of the community (gamers) avoid it either by reputation or experience. Pro painters as we see are jumping ship at an astounding rate. All I'm saying is can we at least not pretend there is no issue here, even if you personally like the stuff lol!
For the record, I do use FC myself, usually when I will be hacking the model up for a lot of conversion (blood angels and space marines), if I plan to just do a simple tabletop and leave it at that (my necrons) or if I have no choice (Open day model 2012). So far, I would say about 30% of the 20 models I have were acceptable. 50% had relatively minor issues but took at least half an hour to correct them, and 20% were wtf happend bad. I know what I'm getting into when I make a purchase though, especially online. I can definitely say that I miss metal for the thinner bits like swords etc...
Of course being a mod doesn't mean you can't have a personal opinion, what it does mean is that you should probably put a bit more thought into whether or not to post opinions which are confrontational, because that mod tag does mean that the rest of us have to be extremely wary about how we respond to you in comparison to any other poster. And as for your post, no, you didn't actually flat-out call anyone an idiot for disagreeing with you, you just implied that the only people who can disagree with you are irrational idiots who'd buy a polished turd if it had GW branding on it.
The "evidence" as you put it is still anecdotal, and while a large amount of anecdotal evidence deserves to be taken a bit more seriously, it doesn't change the fundamental nature of it; neither I nor anyone I game with has had significant issues with Finecast in over a year, but in that time I have seen several stuck-in-their-ways old metal-loving grognards march indignantly into the local GW and demand that they get their money back for models with issues so minor they would take minutes to deal with, certainly less time than the same people would be willing to spend scrubbing and filing and pinning and gap-filling the same miniature if it were in metal. So, the only "evidence" that I can actually confirm is A; I prefer restic to metal, even if I would prefer real resin, B; neither I nor anyone who's opinion I can confirm as valid through direct observation has had to return a Finecast model for some time, and C; many of the complaints I have seen about Finecast in situations where I can actually examine the miniature have been completely unreasonable.
Now, is it possible that I and my friends, who collect numerous different races and order Finecast models from both GW and online retailers in substantial numbers, have simply been miraculously untouched by the wave of horrifying blighted "Finecrap" miniatures that GW has been selling everywhere else but where we shop? Perhaps, but is that a more likely scenario than a substantial proportion of the online furor about Finecast being due to a mixture of pre-existing anti-GW sentiment, people viewing their favourite old metal models through rose-tinted glasses despite them being a right pig to assemble and prep, people who've never worked with resin/restic minis before being unwilling to learn new techniques, and people who were burned by Finecast early on and haven't touched it since or who have been inordinately unlucky? Well, you and quite some other have evidently already decided the answer to that question, and that I am a gullible fool if I disagree with you, so I don't suppose there's any point in trying to argue the point really is there.
The Shadow wrote: However, if I knocked a metal infantry model off the table, it would be far more likely to break than its finecast counterpart.
I've abused metal infantry figures for about 15 years now, some of which have lived in plastic bags and metal tins throughout 4 house moves. At worse they've lost a bit of paint or had a bent weapon which I can fix in about a second. With my finecast infantry I'm genuinely worried they'll break in my foam mini's case. Like for like I'd much rather be dropping metal figures than finecast.
Hmm, well, to be completely fair metal did have it's share of problems. The larger infantry models (especially for fantasy) were prone top having gaps that needed filling etc. There were miscasts aswell, clainming there weren't is just silly.
However, equally saying metal mistcasts were just as prevalant as with finecast is well, somewhat obtuse to say the least. Metal miscasts have increased at GW last few years, I'll admit to that, so part of the problem might not just be the medium but Quality Control in general that GW seems to not be able to do.
In the end, finecast is lighter, and metal is was more solid, resitant to the wear and tear on a battlefield that finecast can't really stand to much. Downside, yes it does chip easier, but to be completely honest, I've been playing for quite a long amount of years and after all that time the models I actually primed and varnished properly still proudly stand unchipped, so how much is that downside worth?
All in all, only one thing I keep on wondering with debates like this. Why are we even talking about finecast versus metal, rather than wondering why GW is so utterly incompetent that they can't do everythign is plastic? If Wyrd can make a box of what arguably are 6 character models in pretty dynamic poses as a small company, why the hell can't the producer of "the best toy soldiers" in the world follow suit.
I personally haven't really had any bad experiences with Finecast. So far I've had a DE Lhamaean and Archon with minor flaws such as warped weapons and horns (archon) but nothing a little heat won't fix. The DE wracks I got recently were spot on!
All in all, only one thing I keep on wondering with debates like this. Why are we even talking about finecast versus metal, rather than wondering why GW is so utterly incompetent that they can't do everythign is plastic? If Wyrd can make a box of what arguably are 6 character models in pretty dynamic poses as a small company, why the hell can't the producer of "the best toy soldiers" in the world follow suit.
I have been in the hobby for 15 years and I much prefer fine cast granted I only have 6 fc models but I have never had to return them. My biggest gripe with metal is chipping. And metal model that falls either on a plastic board like the realm of battle board or on the floor is guaranteed to chip. This happens even when I coat it with varnish. 2 nights ago my son knocked 60 plastic and 1 fc dark elf miniatures from my gaming table in a Godzilla moment and there was not a single scratch. My 15 executioners with varnish had edge chipping on the cloak, face, swords came off.
Breotan wrote: Oh, but there are problems with the material. It doesn't tolerate heat well at all. I had the 25th Anniversary model in a display case and the sunny summer day was enough to cause the banner pole to droop over so the banner was touching the base
JFC. That's equal parts outlandish and horrible.
Is it, uh, in an attic or something? I mean, how hot can it get in Seattle?
That's just it. It never got that hot. The figure was in a glass case exposed to direct sunlight during the day and, over the course of the summer, that's all it took. Still, the other stuff I've got in Finecast has held up rather well. The Skaven Doom-flayer was much easier to put together because it wasn't metal. But still, stay away from the Mangler Squig if you want to remain sane. There isn't enough pinning in the whole world that'll keep that thing upright.
Makes since to me. I avoid it like the plague were I can. Makes since that somebody that does this as a business would as well.
My problem with finecast is the quality. Non of my local stores will carry or support finecast becuase of the hassle involved. That's directly from the store owners mouths. I have to drive hours just to find a store that sells it. Once I'm there I have to rummage through a stack of blisters trying to find a fig that I feel confidant enough as a beginning hobbiest to repair and paint. Repairs and filling gaps is normal for any modeling hobby within reason.
My biggest problem with finecast though is it degrades very fast and ill explain. It gets very hot here in the spring and summer. Say I have a finecast and I've gone through the trouble of finding/fixing and painting it. All of that is worthless the first time it tops over 100f and the models wilts and is ruined. Metal won't do that. Yes it can chip and yes they can break but I would think it would be a very rare thing for a metal model to be ruined beyond salvage. The other issue is getting the models. With no locals stocking finecast I'm at the mercy of my local ham fisted postal service which combined whith finecast doesn't work out to well.
Ill stick with metal if of eBay were I can. And break down and do finecast when I have no choice. One example would be the ork big guns. Sure I can find them on eBay but I'm not will to pay 80$ for 1 gun model at a time. At that point I'd rather deal with finecast.
It hasn't gotten any better, your standards have just grown gak glasses.
And.. to metal? That.... gak is better?
No way. I'm calling you on it and I'd like some pictures of this fine quality gak on a stick.
Pretty much.
I have a theory on the finecast defenders but it wont be popular.
If you notice, good painters are saying finecast is crap where as bad painters will just prime and dry brush it and be happy with it, all the while calling everyone else whiners (or the like), essentially their standards for poor quality is non exsistent. Its like people telling me Mcdonalds is good for you as long as you portion it properly, sure you could, but the amount of effort involved is silly where as you can just go the easy route and just eat something healthy.
If anything this just adds more weight to the "battered gamer sydrome", where we just have become numb to how GW treats us as if its normal, and should be expected and accepted.
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Fenrir Kitsune wrote: I've never actually bought any finecast? Is the QA still as bad as it was when it first came out?
If its been two years, then that means no GW models purchased for at least two years! How time flies when yr having fun.
In my experience it has a 66% miscast rate, even now I find it hasnt gotten any better. What I have noticed is GW employees are getting more anal about returning it, and I know for certain fact they were handed a policy telling them to deter the return of finecast by attempting to sell and demostrate liquid green stuff, as well as down play how poor the quality is. I've personally seen a kid get out talked of returning his finecast because of how loud and obnoxious the employee was being.
MajorTom11 wrote: Sigh... I am still in wonder that Finecast has people defending it... what are we? 2 years in? The opinion of both stores and the professional painting community is nearly universal that it adds hours of frustrating prep or returned product for little to no gain.
I am under the impression that people still loving finecast and claiming it is better than metal (barring models that were too heavy as metals to put together easily) have to be either:
A) Insanely, insanely lucky with their purchases
B) Completely and totally immune to evidence
C) The absolutely most amazing marketing audience ever and I should be taking their names down.
Yes you could say the above is condescending but we are well past the point in the evidence cycle in my opinion where the matter was particularly up for debate anymore. Finecast may have been good if it wasn't for the atrocious lack of QC and casting consistency, as it stands, the risk of getting a dud model even if the number is only 20% makes it a giant pain and a big risk to pros and stores, and frankly, if you have standards, the average gamer as well.
Here's a tip mate, if you're about to type out "you could say the above is condescending"(a charitable characterisation, frankly), and you're a mod on a forum on which the number one rule is "be polite", that's probably the point to move your mouse away from the post button and close the tab.
And here is a tip for you sir, you could say the above is condescending. It doesn't mean it is. I need no reminders from you about the rules of this forum thank you very much. The fact that you actually agreed with me, that restic in and of itself is not the problem in principle, it is GW's shoddy quality control, makes me laugh a bit, are you not then condescending yourself? I have a problem with people who 2 years in still think they can seperate the issues, restic and quality control, when it comes to finecast. We can no longer call it phase 1 or growing pains, so the quality control in my opinion must now be taken as an intrinsic, static issue with finecast until something changes. If finecast was well cast, and the models designed/converted to it were made with the material's strength in mind (both aesthetically and structurally) I would have absolutely not problem buying it. In fact it is much easier to convert which is great!
However, personally, I prefer metal if I don't plan on converting. Ya it has it's own liabilities but overall, at lest you were pretty much guaranteed to know exactly what you were getting into most of the time. That however of course is up for debate according to personal preference. I however don't think bubbled and misaligned casting are up for debate at all... they suck. Some people, not saying you mind, but some people defend it even with those flaws, and point to liquid GS and other things as if they were some kind of reason not to be annoyed that you have to either make a return or work for an hour or 3 just to get started on the model with a basecoat.
Just because there is a MOD tag next to my name doesn't mean I don't have personal opinions, and nor does it mean I am being extra rude or rude at all for giving a general opinion. There was no name calling, I simply expressed my disbelief that anyone, 2 years into this crap, would still either be pretending the issues don't exist and/or that they don't matter. I think that is a pretty objective observation at this point. Stores don't carry it, either because they got fed-up previously or because GW now wants to avoid sending finecast blisters due to the huge expenses of the multiple returns... Now GW wants to sell the blisters direct as much as possible so they can take a greater profit and absorb the return costs a bit better. A significant portion of the community (gamers) avoid it either by reputation or experience. Pro painters as we see are jumping ship at an astounding rate. All I'm saying is can we at least not pretend there is no issue here, even if you personally like the stuff lol!
For the record, I do use FC myself, usually when I will be hacking the model up for a lot of conversion (blood angels and space marines), if I plan to just do a simple tabletop and leave it at that (my necrons) or if I have no choice (Open day model 2012). So far, I would say about 30% of the 20 models I have were acceptable. 50% had relatively minor issues but took at least half an hour to correct them, and 20% were wtf happend bad. I know what I'm getting into when I make a purchase though, especially online. I can definitely say that I miss metal for the thinner bits like swords etc...
Of course being a mod doesn't mean you can't have a personal opinion, what it does mean is that you should probably put a bit more thought into whether or not to post opinions which are confrontational, because that mod tag does mean that the rest of us have to be extremely wary about how we respond to you in comparison to any other poster. And as for your post, no, you didn't actually flat-out call anyone an idiot for disagreeing with you, you just implied that the only people who can disagree with you are irrational idiots who'd buy a polished turd if it had GW branding on it.
The "evidence" as you put it is still anecdotal, and while a large amount of anecdotal evidence deserves to be taken a bit more seriously, it doesn't change the fundamental nature of it; neither I nor anyone I game with has had significant issues with Finecast in over a year, but in that time I have seen several stuck-in-their-ways old metal-loving grognards march indignantly into the local GW and demand that they get their money back for models with issues so minor they would take minutes to deal with, certainly less time than the same people would be willing to spend scrubbing and filing and pinning and gap-filling the same miniature if it were in metal. So, the only "evidence" that I can actually confirm is A; I prefer restic to metal, even if I would prefer real resin, B; neither I nor anyone who's opinion I can confirm as valid through direct observation has had to return a Finecast model for some time, and C; many of the complaints I have seen about Finecast in situations where I can actually examine the miniature have been completely unreasonable.
Now, is it possible that I and my friends, who collect numerous different races and order Finecast models from both GW and online retailers in substantial numbers, have simply been miraculously untouched by the wave of horrifying blighted "Finecrap" miniatures that GW has been selling everywhere else but where we shop? Perhaps, but is that a more likely scenario than a substantial proportion of the online furor about Finecast being due to a mixture of pre-existing anti-GW sentiment, people viewing their favourite old metal models through rose-tinted glasses despite them being a right pig to assemble and prep, people who've never worked with resin/restic minis before being unwilling to learn new techniques, and people who were burned by Finecast early on and haven't touched it since or who have been inordinately unlucky? Well, you and quite some other have evidently already decided the answer to that question, and that I am a gullible fool if I disagree with you, so I don't suppose there's any point in trying to argue the point really is there.
I'll give you one last nibble, I see you are playing the old 'your evidence is anecdotal but my group of friends and our experience is valid' and also the classic 'I am going to give a 4 paragraph argument but throw in you will not change your mind and will be mean to me in your next post so I will just sit here and be the victim' card as well. The cherry on top, the 'I will say the precise opposite as you with as much conviction, but when I do it is moderate and not an attack' finishing move. Good for you lol.
Let me spell it out for you as I see it one last time:
1st - I don't think you think the Mod tag next to my name means you should be afraid of me, I think you think it means you can be a tough guy and attempt to bait me because you would love it if I went nuts so you could go 'see! look he is a tyrant'. I think you think you've got a win-win here lol, fight the power and all that. Unfortunately I am just participating in the discussion, offering an opinion, just because you don't like it and feel it is an attack doesn't make it so, though I am sure we are all impressed at you taking a stand against my horrible, terribly insulting and notably unique perspective. I note you choose to single me out when many, many others are saying the exact same thing, sometimes more strongly worded than mine.
2nd - The 2 groups with the highest standards, and massive experience with all manner of models in a professional capacity, shop owners and pro painters do hold more weight with me than you and your friends. It's not an insult, it's logic man. I will take the bonified expert opinion of people who deal with this stuff for a living over any average painter/gamer/hobbyist, and I think that is a completely objective and justifiable. This is the part that I knew may be taken as condescending by some. But if you think it is condescending to value superior experience, knowledge, statistics and business acumen on a much broader scale than an average person could bring to the table, then the problem is on your end. Sorry.
The fact of the matter is that I can only conclude, based on 2 years of evidence, that anyone who is having overwhelmingly positive finecast experiences is one of the three things I mentioned, incredibly lucky and got almost all good product, has lower standards or is particularly susceptible to marketing. Are these insulting? Again, only if you choose to make them so because of your own insecurity.
1. Incredibly lucky: Good for you, you have beaten the curve and not experienced any problems. You have a perfectly justified opinion based on personal experience that the product is good. However, you are still projecting your experience on many others and acting as if your good experience cancels out the horrible time others have had, and also disregarding outside data in the forming of your opinion. Reasonably speaking, taking all things into account, finecast should still be considered hit and miss. You didn't get any flaws to see personally though, and that has to be considered to as you can only form your opinion based on what you experience and learn...
2. You have lower standards than some: You are a tabletop kinda guy, a gamer first or you enjoy painting but are not willing to invest 30 hours into each model. This is completely ok. Not everyone is going to approach everything they paint with Golden Demon standards! Not everyone regards their minis as art, or display pieces. To some they are game models and that is perfectly, totally reasonable and fine. A bunch of bubbles or missed detail is not that big a deal... your models spend more time in foam travelling than in a display case, so light and chip resistant are extremely, extremely important to you. This makes total sense and is I think by far the most common scenario for finecast supporters. It's only an insult if you think you have Golden Demon standards... since the greater body of pro-painters say it is terrible for them, then you have to consider that you may indeed have lower standards then. You see the flaws but don't care too much, and think they are no big deal.
3. You are susceptible to marketing: Well, that is the whole point of marketing, to pre-form the opinion of the audience and also to take away obstacles to postive reception. There are points about finecast that in practice or in theory are superior. If you value the benefits over obvious flaws right in front of your face, you value system is skewed towards the theoretical positives rather than the practical ones you are holding in your hand. This is based on the assumption that you indeed have bad finecast, and still cannot really bring yourself to see the flaws as flaws, more that they are 'worthy sacrifices' to the theoretical quality altar. An entire industry exists all over the world, making billions a year because this can in fact work. Are you saying that people who are suceptible to marketing don't exist? I can assure you it is objectively provable this is not the case.
These 3 points are based on the supposition that you accept that the store-owners, public outcry and pro painters are not engaged in some kind of hysterical hallucination, or enacting a vendetta against GW. So obviously if you place no value on the evidence of the other side then there will be a deadlock of opinions. It happens lol, welcome to the internet. You don't need to attempt to make a witch-hunt out of it.
The Shadow wrote: However, if I knocked a metal infantry model off the table, it would be far more likely to break than its finecast counterpart.
That depends entirely on the model. If the model is large but with small joins, then the joins are more likely to fail on a metal model... though realistically if you're using decent glue it takes a lot to break metal joins on infantry sized models.
If the model has any thin shafts or thin anything, metal is likely to bend where finecast is likely to snap. One of my friends who was very careless with his models was constantly dropping his metal models and the spears just bent and he'd bend them back again. Not great because the paint would come off where it was bent back and forth, but better than completely snapping IMO.
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MarkyMark wrote: Personnaly I have around 20 finecast models, nearly all characters and I have had to return 1 and have a few issues with another one, and that is it rest have been fine. The one returned (pedro) was missing his arm so mis packaged rather then other issues and belial has the tip of his sword missing.
I prefer finecast to metal, but you know what its my opinion from my experince .
You must have amazing luck or be very good at cherry picking models. I can randomly pick 20 models off the shelves at my local GW and see a significant proportion with serious flaws and pretty much all of them will have small bubbles if nothing else.
Cherry picking nope, all ordered online or in store at 4tk for a few of the models
Curiously enough Mark and I live quite close together and as I've said earlier I haven't had any problems either. Perhaps we have conscientious retailers in this part of Southern England though I doubt it as the few I bought were from GW and a well know indie.
-Loki- wrote:
jah-joshua wrote: unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
There is actually. Finecast has always been a stop gap to a full plastic range. That's why we're now seeing things like generic characters as single pose plastics. Granted, Fantasy is getting the lions share of these, but they're making their way to 40k every release.
I think this will be the case but I can't help but remember most of the casting problems I have seen in the last decade has been mold slip on plastic sprues. Its all swings and roundabouts really.
I've never really had a problem with fine cast. It holds the paint better than metal does and the details are sharper (check the big mek in my gallery, for example).
Let me just point out that 2 out of 20 models is still a pretty bad percentage. Even 3 out 60. That's 5-10% of the product you sell being defective. What company would sell a product that will turn out defective 5-10% of the time?
I totally get why commission painters in those countries won't accept Finecast: it does take a lot of prep time if it is a defective product (and I personally wouldn't want to roll with that if there's a 10% chance of it being defective) and fiddly little bits won't do well. Fortunately for me no one has commissioned me to do Finecast yet, and I will make sure first that it's a good sculpt with little or no defects before accepting.
The Shadow wrote: However, if I knocked a metal infantry model off the table, it would be far more likely to break than its finecast counterpart.
That depends entirely on the model. If the model is large but with small joins, then the joins are more likely to fail on a metal model... though realistically if you're using decent glue it takes a lot to break metal joins on infantry sized models.
If the model has any thin shafts or thin anything, metal is likely to bend where finecast is likely to snap. One of my friends who was very careless with his models was constantly dropping his metal models and the spears just bent and he'd bend them back again. Not great because the paint would come off where it was bent back and forth, but better than completely snapping IMO.
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MarkyMark wrote: Personnaly I have around 20 finecast models, nearly all characters and I have had to return 1 and have a few issues with another one, and that is it rest have been fine. The one returned (pedro) was missing his arm so mis packaged rather then other issues and belial has the tip of his sword missing.
I prefer finecast to metal, but you know what its my opinion from my experince .
You must have amazing luck or be very good at cherry picking models. I can randomly pick 20 models off the shelves at my local GW and see a significant proportion with serious flaws and pretty much all of them will have small bubbles if nothing else.
Cherry picking nope, all ordered online or in store at 4tk for a few of the models
Curiously enough Mark and I live quite close together and as I've said earlier I haven't had any problems either. Perhaps we have conscientious retailers in this part of Southern England though I doubt it as the few I bought were from GW and a well know indie.
-Loki- wrote:
jah-joshua wrote: unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
There is actually. Finecast has always been a stop gap to a full plastic range. That's why we're now seeing things like generic characters as single pose plastics. Granted, Fantasy is getting the lions share of these, but they're making their way to 40k every release.
I think this will be the case but I can't help but remember most of the casting problems I have seen in the last decade has been mold slip on plastic sprues. Its all swings and roundabouts really.
All mine bar, 2 or 3 were from GW as they are special order models rather then those avaliable to the retailers with better discounts.
If it matters at all, I started 40k 7 or 8 months ago so all my buys have been in that time frame,
I have never had a problem with finecast. I also have not bought any because of the problems that I have seen. Just recently someone I know purchased a finecast hydra that was horribly miscast.
This being said, I do not quite understand why professional painters would turn down finecast. If someone paid me for something I would do it. Maybe they are not charging by the hour, or charging for prep. That, or the painters do not like to fix models. I think that it would be the customers prerogative to supply the painter with a model that they are satisfied with.
Some of it might have something to do with quality. If your paying some guy 1000's of dollars to paint your army and then your character models go all bendy in transits from heat, who are you going to blame? Not to mention it through a off their timing. You have to remeber that they do this as a job so try have to crank out these armies fast. If they have as much trouble getting good cast as we do the. Their projects keep getting stalled.
I said I wasn't going to buy any more finecast models, and then immediately went back on my word for the new Tau release, and I'm really regretting it now. I've spent hours filling in bubbles in Farsight, and I haven't even started on the crisis commander, but I'll have to call GW customer support at some point to get replacement thrusters, due to some very noticeable mold slip. If I was a less meticulous fellow I may prefer this to the metal, as bubbles are easier to overlook than the typical razor-sharp metal flash spikes that most GW metals have, but I'd rather pin and trim than re-sculpt details.
I can completely understand metal models being more expensive on ebay. I've bought a few used finecast models, and, personally, I'd have to do some serious thinking before I'd buy another one. Several of the ones I've got seem to be mixed badly in addition to the usual bubbles.The models are practically disintegrating as I work with them in some cases, sheets of resin sloughing off with a dusty layer underneath. That is not something I've ever had happen with a metal model, or even a decent resin one.
spaceelf wrote: I have never had a problem with finecast. I also have not bought any because of the problems that I have seen. Just recently someone I know purchased a finecast hydra that was horribly miscast.
This being said, I do not quite understand why professional painters would turn down finecast. If someone paid me for something I would do it. Maybe they are not charging by the hour, or charging for prep. That, or the painters do not like to fix models. I think that it would be the customers prerogative to supply the painter with a model that they are satisfied with.
The problem is you'd have to (generally) pay more for it. Most decent standard commission painters seem to aim for around 20 to 30 minutes time in prep and assembly per single figure, regardless of paint job standard. In most cases (metal, pressure cast resin, plastic, restic etc) this is on average all that's required.
An unpredictable material makes quoting for that very difficult. For example, I spent over six hours working on a single Finecast Captain Stern, which in turn was the best of NINE models I went through over the course of several weeks. If I had to charge for the time, you'd be looking at around (conservatively) £150 before the primer went on. The best Finecast I've handled did take around 30 minutes of work (over a couple of hours) in retraining the sword to be straight, and which was the first off the shelf. Unfortunately the first example seems to be the more common, but even by cherry picking in store (difficult now that much of the Finecast range is 'direct only') it is extremely easy to miss critical flaws that only become apparent when working on the model.
When running a business of any sort, this sort of unpredictability is not desirable. Not so much that people don't want to do that work (although it is equivalent to having to hammer out dents in a car you've been paid to paint), but that you can't easily say you need to do the work until you've booked the job. Customers tend not to like price changes after booking in the upward direction.
Metal has issues but I've never opened up a metal blister and had the model pockmarked full of holes - or pieces so thin you could see through.
I have. From a variety of companies. maybe not the translucent part, but that's more to properties of metal than anything else, I think I have seen some issues with completely missing thin pieces, as well as torn molds so casts have extra chunks on them, misaligned molds, and similar issues.
Haven't bought any FineCast myself, but I've heard the quality has been improving. Is this incorrect?
Resin-style processes seem to be a bit more finicky than metal cast, both of which are much more finicky than plastics molding....But plastics require a lot more 'up-front' design time and expense, which needs to be amortized over the entire project.
Metal has issues but I've never opened up a metal blister and had the model pockmarked full of holes - or pieces so thin you could see through.
I have. From a variety of companies. maybe not the translucent part, but that's more to properties of metal than anything else, I think I have seen some issues with completely missing thin pieces, as well as torn molds so casts have extra chunks on them, misaligned molds, and similar issues.
Haven't bought any FineCast myself, but I've heard the quality has been improving. Is this incorrect?
It's a mixed bag. I haven't seen too many problems with sculpts designed to be using the Finecast mixture but have seen problems with the metal ones that have been converted over.
Admittedly, I usually try to use up my own bits for characters and the like before resorting to a Finecast character/unit so I haven't had a huge exposure recently. The most recent one I worked on was Darkstrider from the Tau line and he was pretty clean. Two pockmarks on a part of his trousers that took a few minutes to fix (minus the drying time for the green stuff).
UltraPrime wrote: Never had a serious problem with Finecast. Much prefer it over metal.
This sums up my experience with Finecast, and if some painter banns it I hardly care to be honest.
This is merely a market dictating terms on how they handle commissions.
From their experience, Finecast appears harder to work with given that there are a few flaws (bubbles and miscasts, not like the whole thing is a riddled swiss cheese plastic husk). These commissioners are paid by the job and if these jobs take too long, it comes out of their bottom line by how many commissions they can accept.
Yeah...that's not true at all. It's not even an extra ten minutes of repairs, and I don't do this for a living like they do.
This is just the OP(who runs "masterminis.blogspot.de") hawking his site and linking to advertisers/partners.
It happens quite often with this individual.
But on topic?
I haven't heard of these "commission painters" before. What great exposure they're getting now!
I know all of them. Some of them do work for several major miniature manufacturers, not just private commissions. They've all been going for years. Their experience pretty much matches mine, and in terms of repair time, Finecast is usually (not always) much much more. When you're in the game of building / painting toy soldiers for a living, time is money. Time you have to spend on fixing stuff is time you either have to charge for or lose money on.
Kanluwen; you are talking utter tosh.
I have never heard of any of these commission painters. That's totally on me not doing some research--but it still does not change the key point I was attempting to convey: That the OP is yet another one of the people who use Dakka as traffic for his blog/website in the guise of "starting conversation". He dumps a post on Dakka riddled with links to his blog and a few other sites, then seemingly doesn't return until he has another post and needs a new surge of traffic.
That's a pet peeve of mine and I really dislike it. It shouldn't matter so much to me, but it gets quite irksome to see someone trying to use Dakka(or any forum for that matter) as their own personal captive audience without having to resort to actually advertising on the website.
Well then it's no surprise you haven't heard of them then is it? He has won tons of awards including demons... I don't think it's fair of you to say part of your annoyance is that never having heard of these commision painters lends an air of illegitimacy for you if they are actually quite famous as far as these things go lol. I don't call Stephen hawking a quack because I've never heard of him while at the same time taking part in a thread about eminent physisists lol...
Now, is it possible that I and my friends, who collect numerous different races and order Finecast models from both GW and online retailers in substantial numbers, have simply been miraculously untouched by the wave of horrifying blighted "Finecrap" miniatures that GW has been selling everywhere else but where we shop? Perhaps, but is that a more likely scenario than a substantial proportion of the online furor about Finecast being due to a mixture of pre-existing anti-GW sentiment, people viewing their favourite old metal models through rose-tinted glasses despite them being a right pig to assemble and prep, people who've never worked with resin/restic minis before being unwilling to learn new techniques, and people who were burned by Finecast early on and haven't touched it since or who have been inordinately unlucky? Well, you and quite some other have evidently already decided the answer to that question, and that I am a gullible fool if I disagree with you, so I don't suppose there's any point in trying to argue the point really is there.
Yes its a online furor, and top commission painters can have the luxury of banning what is probably one of their biggest source of income ( painting of GW products)... but then again you and your friends have a better perspective...
MajorTom11 wrote: Well then it's no surprise you haven't heard of them then is it? He has won tons of awards including demons... I don't think it's fair of you to say part of your annoyance is that never having heard of these commision painters lends an air of illegitimacy for you if they are actually quite famous as far as these things go lol. I don't call Stephen hawking a quack because I've never heard of him while at the same time taking part in a thread about eminent physisists lol...
You shouldn't call him a quack because you've never heard of him. You should call him a quack because he turns his speech synthesizer to 'Duck Mode' every Halloween. Crazy bastard that Stephen Hawking.
MajorTom11 wrote: Well then it's no surprise you haven't heard of them then is it? He has won tons of awards including demons... I don't think it's fair of you to say part of your annoyance is that never having heard of these commision painters lends an air of illegitimacy for you if they are actually quite famous as far as these things go lol. I don't call Stephen hawking a quack because I've never heard of him while at the same time taking part in a thread about eminent physisists lol...
I don't think you quite grasped what I was saying.
My annoyance isn't that "Oh I've never heard of these people!". It's that the OP has a history of doing exactly what he has done. He posts what amounts to a link to his blog and then leaves, without ever bothering to engage the forum in discussion unless it directly involves him and his site. Look at the posting history he has and you will see what I'm referring to.
I'll leave it alone now, but if you'd like to continue the discussion Tom--I'll gladly continue it in PMs. I'm not trying to derail the thread or start up a witch hunt. It's a pet peeve and it irks me to no end, no matter who does it.
Yes Khan we get it, its all a big obscure plan to give these "commission painters" (you never heard of before but are as famous as they can get) a big exposure... Makes sense.
It's newsworthy and worth discussion regardless of his continued participation Kan. You don't need to perpetually participate in a topic, even your own, to make it valid. So what if he links to his blog? He puts up a conversation starter, it's not like its just a link. Plenty of people and businesses promote here at dakka, it's one of the big pluses of the place in the community. Not sure what offends so much about that?
'What great exposure they're getting' derails your point. Especially when they really, really don't need the exposure.
The point is, that very high level painters are refusing to work on the material.
Now, an apology for those I may inadvertently insult; this is not intentional, not personal, merely an observation, and one from the point of view of a professional who takes pride in the standard their work.
Those that 'prefer Finecast', 'think it's OK', and 'don't have a problem with it' (paraphrased, any similarity to actual quotes unintended) are, on the whole and by all appearances, Not Very Good Painters or Modellers.
Poor focus, badly lit pictures of 'sharp detail' abound. Paintwork that ranges from childish to 'very basic tabletop'. Find me someone with an average CMON score of 7.5 or better who agrees with the 'it's not gak, really' standpoint and I will post a public retraction of this statement. Maybe it's lack of experience. Maybe it's poor eyesight. Poor judgement? Or simply a different idea of what is an acceptable standard.
We are fed pictures (in magazines / the web and by all manufacturers) of models finished to a high standard. Very often the painted examples (most of the time done by freelance commission guys - only GW use in house painters AFAIK) we see are preproduction casts and may be unrelated to the actual product we buy. This is false advertising.
If I bought a (modern) Ferrari and took it to the test track, I'd want it to go 120mph without vibrating itself to pieces, and without having to refit and rebalance the suspension myself. If I couldn't drive it myself, I wouldn't want to have to pay the driver I hire to do the suspension work either.
MajorTom11 wrote: It's newsworthy and worth discussion regardless of his continued participation Kan.
Is it really though? It boils down to "Hey guys, I have a new blog link. It's about something that stopped being newsworthy two years ago when Finecast was crap then and is still crap now. But hey, since some big names who I know personally started refusing to take commissions it's news!".
You don't need to perpetually participate in a topic, even your own, to make it valid. So what if he links to his blog? He puts up a conversation starter, it's not like its just a link.
Plenty of people and businesses promote here at dakka, it's one of the big pluses of the place in the community. Not sure what offends so much about that?
Sure, plenty of people and businesses promote here at Dakka.
How many of them just dump a news article whenever they feel like it in whatever damn forum they feel like? This was originally posted in News and Rumors. It's neither of those.
When he was doing a "giveaway", he posted it in the Swap Shop.
The fact that he has so few posts and almost all of them amount to blog plugging is what "offends me so much". If he can't be bothered to actually post here enough to develop a reputation beyond yourself, Winterdyne, and other individuals who do commission work/know of him (and his cohorts) from CMON or other forums?
Yes, actually. I know the OP personally. Nice guy, and actually trying to push forward the painting hobby globally. Possibly insane, but also a real ferret for news in the miniature painting / modelling / gaming hobby. He spends a great deal of time and money getting and putting out news. Edit: I think he posts on pretty much EVERY mini-related forum he can find. Pretty certain he was uploading GDUK footage while I was still on the stage and he was still recording.
Nope, Bogun and several others just announced this decision last week, it's fresh news. There were many who made the move early on like Matt Fontaine and others, but this latest wave represents a significant portion of the remaining European master houses and I assure you is of great interest to the painting community, and obviously by consequence those who are fans and those who are customers.
As for the rest, I have always been proud that Dakka gives everyone a chance and venue to promote their work and get some extra eyes on it. It's good for them, and if they are good, it's good for the community. Is it possible to abuse the fact we allow it? Yes it is, but the line has not been crossed here. Kan the op is welcome here at Dakka, even if be doesn't participate in his threads after the fact. Maybe some of us, like myself lol, could take a lesson to post and go instead of lurking!
At jah and winterdyne in particular, completely agree. Both those guys are award winning pro painters for at least 5 years... And as for me I have an award or two as well, though I wouldn't quite put myself in their company. I think winterdyne is very correct in his assessment. Hard to hear for some maybe but pretty demonstrably true none the less. Let experts be experts sometimes guys, it doesn't do anything good for them to then down commissions or sales, or not work on a model they like.
winterdyne wrote: Yes, actually. I know the OP personally. Nice guy, and actually trying to push forward the painting hobby globally. Possibly insane, but also a real ferret for news in the miniature painting / modelling / gaming hobby. He spends a great deal of time and money getting and putting out news. Edit: I think he posts on pretty much EVERY mini-related forum he can find. Pretty certain he was uploading GDUK footage while I was still on the stage and he was still recording.
Again, you're talking complete tosh.
You're welcome to think that I'm doing nothing but "talking complete tosh"(a phrase I am going to have to completely start working into everyday conversation). But again, it's YOUR experience with him.
He can be the nicest guy you know--but how the heck would I know that?
I have no experience with him outside of Dakka, because I keep myself on just Dakka. I know my limitations and I know that posting on CMON is not what I would consider to be an experience for me. I know I'm going to be doing tabletop quality work, at best and as such I keep myself on a forum with a community that I like.
My experience with him is postings like this, this, this, and this.
And that experience has led me to have the perception that he behaves the way an attention seeking blogger (who admittedly has good taste in user names and reading material) who has no interest in Dakka beyond blog hits would.
Could my perception be completely wrong? It most certainly could, but without more interaction it's the perception I have.
I will most certainly apologize for having been a bit brazen and rude to begin with, but I like Dakka. I like the community that we have here. I like that we have individuals like yourself or Major Tom who have no problems calling people like myself to task when they do not have all the facts or what you consider to be the wrong viewpoint.
But I do ask that you at least try to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a big famous painter who enters competitions regularly or someone who even feels comfortable with posting most of the work he does online. Some of the names that you know personally or people you have rubbed elbows with at a convention's painting competition might not be readily recognizable to someone like myself.
Personally I've tried to steer clear of finecast as far as possible making it a point to track down a metal version for my commission jobs if possible. Its lead to me taking on more Warmachine/hordes commissions and from that the local community has grown.
No one got into wargaming for the rules sets. We all got in because it looks cool. We'll see if more commission work regarding other gaming systems begins to become more prevalent from the major studios.
I think his interest in Dakka is 'dump news, move on'. That's fine. Well, there's a bit more than that, but that's all there needs to be. I doubt he gets time for much else. He posts pretty much everywhere within minutes of getting news. Eager little beaver.
As an aside; I think his overall aim is to provide a central hub (via his blog) of reliable news from the mini painting world. That he cross posts any information at all is a credit to him, those of a more mercenary outlook might simply post just the link to their blog article. Of course there are plans in place to monetise (advertising his painting DVDs on there for example). This is no different from ITN/CNN etc allowing advert breaks in news programming.
In more direct response; the OP is pretty much bang on the money; name dropping simply specifies. These are some of the best and biggest commission guys in Europe (world class painters really) that we're talking about. I'm not a world class tennis player but if in a discussion about tennis players refusing to play with such-and-such balls, I might exercise the old google-fu and see what's what.
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aosol wrote: We'll see if more commission work regarding other gaming systems begins to become more prevalent from the major studios.
It already is for me. Reasonable size jobs from Black Scorpion, Mantic and uh, whoever does Infinity (not in studio right now).
I think a good analogue to this is the Xbox red ring of death event.
On the pro Xbox side, it was still a great console when it worked, had great exclusives, superior online and a superior controller. In short, it was worth it. Also of note were all the people posting its not that bad, my Xbox is fine and I've had it since launch, and all my friends too! As if that meant the problem didn't exist or was exaggerated.
On the against side people thought the flaw was completely unnaceptable, the weeks to month long wait for a fixed console too long, and better alternatives like the ps3 were there? Why risk buying a Xbox with a 40% chance of a dud?
Much like here two the camps were mostly divided between pro and against groups anyways, who had preformed opinions based on many other positive and negative factors alike.
There was no particular right or wrong, it was just where your values lay. One key difference though being Microsoft copped to the problems and then sorted it out.
I don't think winterdyne, myself or the others think people are idiots for liking finecast. If it makes you happy it makes you happy, fair enough. There are logical reasons to value the weight and ease of glueing over the finish and consistency. The thing that irks the crap out of people like us (forgive me for speaking for others) is the small percentage of people who deny there are issues at all against all the overwhelming evidence. Maybe the scale of the issue is up for the debate, but that there are notable issues shouldn't be. At that point it starts getting into tin foil hat territory for me lol.
A name and shame isn't really called for. Could a mod please remove that; it's exactly what I didn't want to see. Rather than say 'you can't paint' at people, why not show and explain to them *how* to paint better? This is supposed to be a constructive and reasonably social hobby, not an elitist one.
Indeed, that is certainly not acceptable... it's a fairly tense subject already and there is absolutely no need to actively engage in that kind of behavior, nevermind that it breaks half the rules we have.
I apologize to anyone who read that post, and am thankful Manchu was here to moderate it in a timely manner.
MajorTom11 wrote: Indeed, that is certainly not acceptable... it's a fairly tense subject already and there is absolutely no need to actively engage in that kind of behavior, nevermind that it breaks half the rules we have.
I apologize to anyone who read that post, and am thankful Manchu was here to moderate it in a timely manner.
I read it and almost stooped to his level and asked where his fantastically painted minis were because he also has 0 gallery images, and then my senses took hold
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
I'd gladly pay bit more if BFG ships came out in Finecast. Metal ships require just as much preparation, are bitch to paint because the paint keeps chipping off, nearly impossible to convert...
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
I am willing to bet you used GW's weak-as-cat-piss glue. Don't blame the material if you use sub-par products to put it together.
How does the saying go about bad workmen and their tools?
For those of you slamming metal because it 'chips too much' and 'it just won't stay put' when you try and glue it, consider using a decent primer and a pin vice. You can varnish a model until you're blue in the face but if the paint hasn't adhered to the surface it's never going to stay put.
As for the pinning, it keeps things in place while the glue is drying, so well that you can use slow-dry adhesives without going to to sleep with the model in your hands! (Removing grease with a quick toothbrush/soap scrub combo is also a great way to increase bond strength).
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
I haven't just built "a" metal Tyrant, I built a 3rd edition one It definitely wasn't one of the easier models to assemble, it was the model that taught me to use correct glue for the job. Using regular superglue wasn't good enough, but epoxy glue worked fine and it held together fine, from memory I didn't even pin it.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.
Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
I am willing to bet you used GW's weak-as-cat-piss glue. Don't blame the material if you use sub-par products to put it together.
How does the saying go about bad workmen and their tools?
Nope. 2-part heavy duty Araldite epoxy resin. And it took 5 goes to get it to stick together. Pins, superglue of various brands, epoxy, even Uhu (don't ask me why, I was desperate)-I tried everything.
In the end, the answer turned out to be a mixture of Liquid Green Stuff and superglue. It works like a charm, for future reference. Just mix the 2 together, stick the parts together, and blam. Use an old brush though.
Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
Yep, both the 3rd edition and 2nd edition ones. The tricks you may have been missing is to stuff body cavities with blu-tack, to file or clip off locating nubs where they're misaligned and put short pins in instead and to ensure your superglue is decent. An accelerator is also very useful. Epoxy adhesive works well in addition to superglue for an instant tack.
I paint Finecast models on commission, but some of the casts are hit-and-miss. They are WAY better now than when they first came out, however.
The worst model I've ever assembled was the Troolbloods Mountain King from Privateer Press. I'm painting it right now, but the cast was AWFUL! The back spine/rocks were too wide for the shoulder inset, there were huge gaps all over the model, misaligned details on the mold lines, large chunks of resin in weird places that didn't belong on the model, but were sure to snap off pieces of the model during removal...
Mind you, this was one of the recalled, opened, and inspected kits. Then the nearby store owner bought another one after I got mine, and it had a lot of the same problems. In fact, the Privateer Colossals/Gargantuans in general have been horrid. Mammoth came in that way, the Merc Colossal came with a cracked leg (and the replacement still couldn't hold the torso upright), and lots of WarmaHordes players in my area keep buying these models. 3 out of 3 (yes, 3 out of 3) have had problems.
My most recent Forgeworld purchase (Abaddon vs. Loken) had a lot of bubbles, miscasts, and weird flash too.
Resin lends itself to detail, but is difficult to mass produce for whatever reason.
Still, I absolutely HATE working with metal. If you get even a slightly miscast model, the mold line is irreparable without cutting detail off the figure. It's weighted poorly. If it tips against cardboard the pieces fall off. Pinning is an absolute pain in the ass (especially if not lined up perfectly), the details are chunkier, the paint flakes off if you look at it wrong...
I still paint metal figures on commission, but assembly is awful. Weight matters as much as ease of cleaning, and metal is just more difficult to transport as well.
Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?
Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.
Yep, both the 3rd edition and 2nd edition ones. The tricks you may have been missing is to stuff body cavities with blu-tack, to file or clip off locating nubs where they're misaligned and put short pins in instead and to ensure your superglue is decent. An accelerator is also very useful. Epoxy adhesive works well in addition to superglue for an instant tack.
But look at everything you had to do just to get the metal to maybe hold together. Then there were weird scale issues (e.g. said Hive Tyrant had a head twice as large as the rest of the damn model). It takes longer to clean metal than resin, it's more difficult to clean metal than resin, and you still rely on hope that it will stay together once assembled. Forget if it ever tips over...
The only metal model I've ever had difficulty with was Urien Rackarth. Specifically, the extra arms. Could'a pinned, should'a pinned. Absolutely needed accelerator and a bit of putty to hold things together.
Don't get me wrong, I really really like resin as a material (a very nice example: http://rainingfrogsgarage.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-barbarian-dude.html - yes, I have one, nah na-nah nah. :-p). I do strongly disagree about it taking longer, or being more difficult to clean metal. It's different work, but case by case (with reasonable casts on both sides) it's roughly equivalent in terms of time.
One thing I will say resins have in their favour is light weight; but in truth I'm a great believer that mixed-medium kits are the optimum for many designs. Consider the Mangler Squigs - if the supporting leg were metal (not the whole thing!) then the kit as a whole would be much more stable. If a Zoanthrope body or tail were metal but the head resin, the same; you get a lower centre of gravity and a more stable result. Make large, potentially very heavy or overbearing parts of a light material, make structural components out of a rigid heavy material. Win. But what do I know?
When it first came out I had a terrible experience with it but after checking out other peoples tau crisis commanders on the internet I decided to get one and it didn't take too much work, although there is still a pretty bad air bubble problem.
I prefer it a lot more than metal but quality still isn't quite good enough.
heartserenade wrote: Let me just point out that 2 out of 20 models is still a pretty bad percentage. Even 3 out 60. That's 5-10% of the product you sell being defective. What company would sell a product that will turn out defective 5-10% of the time?
Ok, So lets me get this straight, If i like finecast, I must not be a good painter? Generalization much
I like finecast because it is so easy to work with. My first experience was less then steller. but every single model i got after it was just fine, nothing wrong, and i have roughly 15-20 finecast models.
I already made that comparrison a page or so ago Ouze
The point that a hive tyrant was a bastard to put together in metal is besides the point... of course large metal models are troublesome and need pinning...
The real point is that before ever opening the box, you have a predictable process to go through to get the model ready, and when you are done pinning and glueing, the model will be near perfect except maybe some gs gap filling. Predictable is the key word here, you can account for that in your cost, making it friendlier for commision work even if there is still prep to do. Consistency and Quality control are the issues with finecast, it's not even a question as to whether or not there are differences, of course there are.
BTW, if you think a hive tyrant was tough, you should try this bugger sometime... what an absolute nightmare, and I was way too young to understand pinning or have the right tools, I can't tell you how many times that ankle broke, the wings fell off or the thing tipped over by itself...
I have recently just given up on Finecast. I too hated working with metal models, but Finecast is so much worse. I know there are a bunch of gamers out there who are perfectly content with pulling a model out of the box, cutting it off the sprue, gluing it together, and slapping some paint on it. I'm not that type of gamer. Clean up on plastic models takes me time. I fix imperfections, I smooth rough edges, I green stuff minor gaps. After working with about 10 different cryptek models, I've finally given up. The fact that they needed to create liquid green stuff to specifically fix all the problems that Finecast has is a complete indication of the fail level of the product.
I now just convert plastic kits. I'm not wasting $20 on HQ choices that are going to take me a week to get right.
OK, one thing I don't understand from these "top painters", I have worked with several painters for higher and all of them adjust their pricing based on the size, complexity, and quality of the figs. I do know they have charged more for "difficult" figs. They adjusted their finecast quotes appropriately. Why these top painters aren't charging a premium extra for finecast? It takes up to an hour longer than normal for a fig? Charge an extra hour of labor. If the fig is fine, profit! If it is messed up, you have the time and money allocated.
If they can afford to turn away work, that means they are so in demand they can afford to charge an extra premium for finecast labor.
Sorry, this reeks of a PR stunt to drum up business for these painters. Both painters pointing to the same blurry pic as "proof" is questionable. If both had shown separate figs that were pocked marked and greenstuffed as proof of their frustration, I would have believe it more.
And yes, for the record, I think GW's finecast quality is crap. I love resin and plastic and hate metal. GW's stuff is such a crapshoot that I avoid it.
winterdyne wrote: 'What great exposure they're getting' derails your point. Especially when they really, really don't need the exposure.
The point is, that very high level painters are refusing to work on the material.
Now, an apology for those I may inadvertently insult; this is not intentional, not personal, merely an observation, and one from the point of view of a professional who takes pride in the standard their work.
Those that 'prefer Finecast', 'think it's OK', and 'don't have a problem with it' (paraphrased, any similarity to actual quotes unintended) are, on the whole and by all appearances, Not Very Good Painters or Modellers.
Poor focus, badly lit pictures of 'sharp detail' abound. Paintwork that ranges from childish to 'very basic tabletop'. Find me someone with an average CMON score of 7.5 or better who agrees with the 'it's not gak, really' standpoint and I will post a public retraction of this statement. Maybe it's lack of experience. Maybe it's poor eyesight. Poor judgement? Or simply a different idea of what is an acceptable standard.
We are fed pictures (in magazines / the web and by all manufacturers) of models finished to a high standard. Very often the painted examples (most of the time done by freelance commission guys - only GW use in house painters AFAIK) we see are preproduction casts and may be unrelated to the actual product we buy. This is false advertising.
If I bought a (modern) Ferrari and took it to the test track, I'd want it to go 120mph without vibrating itself to pieces, and without having to refit and rebalance the suspension myself. If I couldn't drive it myself, I wouldn't want to have to pay the driver I hire to do the suspension work either.
Okay... I am going to disagree here - even though I really, truly, and utterly do not like Finecast!
Some of the folks that do like Finecast are very good at preparing, painting, and presenting miniatures.
When the models come out of the molds in good shape then they are just fine, mostly. (That whole melting in the window thing aside.)
Other times the fix itself can be enjoyable - unless you are on a time table.
The problem is that with Finecast things go wrong in the mold too often for a professional (that is someone that paints for commissions - taking money for the job) to plan a timetable around.
When nothing goes wrong you can get the mini, prep, prime, paint, and post. A good resin miniature is better for this than a metal one.
But if you have a pock filled, peeling, gaparrific model then you have to order a replacement model, maybe have to wait for returning the original, and hoping that the replacement is problem free... by the time the replacement comes then you have lost a week or more.
GW could avoid a lot of this if they had reliable QA. This is something that they can fix. But as it stands....
So, not just that the folks that like Finecast are bad modelers - some are excellent modelers that enjoy the challenge.
But folks that need to prep, prime, paint, and post...? A whole different story.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* Fixed some typos - because typing with a dislocated thumb is so much fun!
They dont just charge for an extra hour of labor because it isnt that simple...
One model they might end up having only flashing to clean up, another might need a face resculpted. They may need to spend an hour or three driving to the local game store to swap out figures and try to find one that isnt damaged. They might end up sitting on hold with GW for an hour while arranging a replacement figure.
If they are even reasonably busy, you have several months worth of projects in backlog, and waiting a week or two for a new figure to arrive and hoping it is useable (and if not...another week or two). If you have given timelines to customers...that is a good way to blow your entire work schedule.
Nothing in there says PR stunt. Just because they use the same photo, only indicates they used the same photo. It would be like not believing that my dog goes poo in the yard. We all know dogs go poo, I no longer require photographic evidence to support the claim. Quite often Finecast are poo...evidence only being needed if it is an amazingly large pile of poo.
jah-joshua wrote: unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...
There is actually. Finecast has always been a stop gap to a full plastic range. That's why we're now seeing things like generic characters as single pose plastics. Granted, Fantasy is getting the lions share of these, but they're making their way to 40k every release.
The downside to this of course is that plastic, for all of its improvement over the years, is still not able to reach the heights of detail presented by resin or metal. I know you collect Infinity Loki and so know about the level of detail on those miniatures, I would say probably at least 50% (possibly bits on every model) wouldn't be possible in plastic. A lot of GW's character models are the same.
Different games, different products.
Infinity is small scale where every model is basically a character peice. It works for them having every model be multipart metal (which is a fething nightmare to work with - I do it for Infinity because Infinity). Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are mass battle games.
For GW games, I'll gladly take a lower detailed plastic over a higher detailed multipart metal or resin simply due to ease of construction. I'd gladly take a less detailed box of three Zoanthropes over even my Finecast Zoanthropes, because working with resin is only slightly less annoying than working with metal, and when I've got so many models on the table, I don't see the need to such levels of detail on models people aren't going to really scrutinize.
Conversely, I wouldn't want to see Corvus Belli go plastic with infinity. Each model is spectacular, which works for Infinity because it's a game where you'll have, at most, 20 models on the table. You have far less models, thus the time to spend on each one preparing the model, pinning (if you pin them), and spending time painting the much higher level of detail.
Games Workshop games benefit from plastic due to the nature of their games (mass battle, lots of models), and Corvus Belli benefits from metal due to the nature of Infinity (skirmish, not many models).
Sean_OBrien wrote: They dont just charge for an extra hour of labor because it isnt that simple...
One model they might end up having only flashing to clean up, another might need a face resculpted. They may need to spend an hour or three driving to the local game store to swap out figures and try to find one that isnt damaged. They might end up sitting on hold with GW for an hour while arranging a replacement figure.
If they are even reasonably busy, you have several months worth of projects in backlog, and waiting a week or two for a new figure to arrive and hoping it is useable (and if not...another week or two). If you have given timelines to customers...that is a good way to blow your entire work schedule.
Nothing in there says PR stunt. Just because they use the same photo, only indicates they used the same photo. It would be like not believing that my dog goes poo in the yard. We all know dogs go poo, I no longer require photographic evidence to support the claim. Quite often Finecast are poo...evidence only being needed if it is an amazingly large pile of poo.
Sean_OBrien wrote: They dont just charge for an extra hour of labor because it isnt that simple...
One model they might end up having only flashing to clean up, another might need a face resculpted. They may need to spend an hour or three driving to the local game store to swap out figures and try to find one that isnt damaged. They might end up sitting on hold with GW for an hour while arranging a replacement figure.
If they are even reasonably busy, you have several months worth of projects in backlog, and waiting a week or two for a new figure to arrive and hoping it is useable (and if not...another week or two). If you have given timelines to customers...that is a good way to blow your entire work schedule.
Nothing in there says PR stunt. Just because they use the same photo, only indicates they used the same photo. It would be like not believing that my dog goes poo in the yard. We all know dogs go poo, I no longer require photographic evidence to support the claim. Quite often Finecast are poo...evidence only being needed if it is an amazingly large pile of poo.
Yes, and that is part of the upfront charge for each model. You update customers that there are delays and are waiting for new figs. All part of time management. Then while you wait, you work on other projects. It is a little thing called multitasking. I'm pretty sure you have heard of it.
Companies in demand can charge the price they want. You want me to do a finecast model? That will be an extra $100-500 for potential hassle.
That they can't demand the extra hassle cost means they don't have enough demand and are trying to drum up business. Everyone has a price, people didn't want to meet theirs. For supposedly having to do deal with multiple bad models, there is a total lack of evidence. There are plenty of WIP shots by these artists and I'm pretty certain they have sent complaint pictures to customers showing potential delays due to defects. As they have clearly complained about the impact on schedule, there should be pictures to back it. All three sculptors doing the same thing around the same time smacks of coordination. It's nothing more that several actors suddenly saying they are skipping an award show. If Tom Cruise isn't going, then I better not go either or I will look bad. It has generated page hits and potentially drummed up business. Mission Accomplished.
It's really not that simple. It isn't just bubbles and the like, which have to be smoothed beyond the comprehension of 98% of the hobby populace in order to accomodate the blending and brushwork of the masters... it sounds nit-picky and 'come on!' but whether you believe it or not, it is true, it's that nit-picky a thing.
That can be dealt with, but as has been said may cost 8-10 hours of additional time to fix in some cases.
But there are irrecoverable finecast issues too, missing detail potentially one of them, but the big one is misaligned molds... I have had this on several models, including 3 necrons and the 25th anniversary marine. It is irrecoverable. You can't file of GS your way out of that, it is as fundamental a flaw as you can get.
If a commission painter receives a POS like this, they will need to return and wait for a replacement, which takes quite a bit of time, and is just another gamble when you get down to it, and you may have to repeat the entire process several times.
This is unnaceptable guys. When you run a business, you live and die by your ability to keep a schedule, maintain productivity and keep your costs predictable. It's not optional, it's not a joke, it's not an oh whatever, it's business. Finecast is russian roulette to those items, and there is no way to pretend even a 20% possibility of failiure is ok. Would you gamble 20% of your income on something completely unpredictable and out of your control? Didn't think so. In fact, enough FC problems could start giving a commission artist a bad rep through no fault of their own, it's a stretch, but it could potentially damage their careers in the field.
No, definitely not worth it if you have a shred of business acumen, it's just arithmetic, really that simple.
Sean_OBrien wrote: They dont just charge for an extra hour of labor because it isnt that simple...
One model they might end up having only flashing to clean up, another might need a face resculpted. They may need to spend an hour or three driving to the local game store to swap out figures and try to find one that isnt damaged. They might end up sitting on hold with GW for an hour while arranging a replacement figure.
If they are even reasonably busy, you have several months worth of projects in backlog, and waiting a week or two for a new figure to arrive and hoping it is useable (and if not...another week or two). If you have given timelines to customers...that is a good way to blow your entire work schedule.
Nothing in there says PR stunt. Just because they use the same photo, only indicates they used the same photo. It would be like not believing that my dog goes poo in the yard. We all know dogs go poo, I no longer require photographic evidence to support the claim. Quite often Finecast are poo...evidence only being needed if it is an amazingly large pile of poo.
Yes, and that is part of the upfront charge for each model. You update customers that there are delays and are waiting for new figs. All part of time management. Then while you wait, you work on other projects. It is a little thing called multitasking. I'm pretty sure you have heard of it.
Companies in demand can charge the price they want. You want me to do a finecast model? That will be an extra $100-500 for potential hassle.
That they can't demand the extra hassle cost means they don't have enough demand and are trying to drum up business. Everyone has a price, people didn't want to meet theirs. For supposedly having to do deal with multiple bad models, there is a total lack of evidence. There are plenty of WIP shots by these artists and I'm pretty certain they have sent complaint pictures to customers showing potential delays due to defects. As they have clearly complained about the impact on schedule, there should be pictures to back it. All three sculptors doing the same thing around the same time smacks of coordination. It's nothing more that several actors suddenly saying they are skipping an award show. If Tom Cruise isn't going, then I better not go either or I will look bad. It has generated page hits and potentially drummed up business. Mission Accomplished.
You can't blame a professional painters or studios for not wanting to deal with it. Just because they can whack on an extra $100 to account for up to 5 hours wasted doesn't mean they want to do that. They may want to maintain a certain quality of product for a certain price so don't want to be charging more than that, they may not want to risk finecast because even the best painters work for a very low hourly rate and can't can't afford lost hours, they may not want to interrupt their workflow dealing with it, they may rather spend those hours actually painting another model instead of dealing with flaws, they may be trying to maintain a certain public image of a company that sells X quality work for Y price.
Just because someone COULD work something in to their business doesn't mean they SHOULD or even want to do it. I took my car to a mechanic that I trust for a service and inspection a couple of weeks ago, a wheel well panel is cracked and they told me they don't do that sort of work and I'd have to take it elsewhere. They COULD do the work, it's not that they don't lack the expertise (I know more than one of the mechanics do bodywork on classic cars in their spare time, so it's not out of their depth), if they don't have the parts they COULD order them and charge me extra for them and hell I would have been happy if they did to save me the hassle. But they DIDN'T because that's not what they do. Most car repair places that specialise in one thing or another are fully capable of doing more and often the workers do actually do more in their spare time, that doesn't mean they want to get in to the business of it.
Based off from past experience it isn't even as simple as whacking on an extra $100 to account for it.
When you do something like that, you then have to deal with fielding all the questions from people who will offer to do the clean up for you, to find perfect finecast models and ship them to you, to somehow bargain away that extra PITA fee you are applying. If you don't - then they get off into their various corners of the internet and they complain that you are unreasonable in your rates and that you refuse to work with a customer who was more then willing to help.
The better business decision is quite often to just say no. What little extra work you might get is much better made up with actually having more time to work on more customers projects and not having to deal with the issues related to Fine Cast or customers complaining about how you choose to deal with Fine Cast.
for me, it isn't about the clean-up, and resculpting, as it is about the softness and memory of the material...
i simply do not want a client to be stuck with a mini that sags, especially when they are paying hundreds of dollars for my work...
at least i know that if i have to heat and bend a Forgeworld mini it will not just go back to the original state...
i have seen this with a lot of people's Finecast, which means i can't trust that i'll be able to deliver a perfect mini...
to be fair, i have had bad experiences with every company and material at one time or another...
buy enough minis, and you will see every possible hiccup at some point...
some are fixable, some are frustrating, and some end up at the bottom of a drawer...
oh, and MajorTom11, i think you mean Bohun, not bogun...
he is definitely one of my favorite painters in the world...
i didn't know he was banning Finecast, too, as the OP just mentioned Atacam and Arsies, unless he's painting for FantasyGames and i just missed that...
those guys are great, but Bohun is in his own world the last couple years...
his NMM and battle damage are insanely good...
BTW, if you think a hive tyrant was tough, you should try this bugger sometime... what an absolute nightmare, and I was way too young to understand pinning or have the right tools, I can't tell you how many times that ankle broke, the wings fell off or the thing tipped over by itself...
Omg! I've actually got one of those in my to-do pile of classic warhammer stuff. Missing one of the feet though.
spaceelf wrote: I have never had a problem with finecast. I also have not bought any because of the problems that I have seen. Just recently someone I know purchased a finecast hydra that was horribly miscast.
This being said, I do not quite understand why professional painters would turn down finecast. If someone paid me for something I would do it. Maybe they are not charging by the hour, or charging for prep. That, or the painters do not like to fix models. I think that it would be the customers prerogative to supply the painter with a model that they are satisfied with.
Another issue is with delivery; finecast is very fragile and even if you get a good cast, the risk of it being damaged by the time it arrives is pretty high (as some parts of the sculpts are impossibly delicate). So it may also be that the painters return-rate is too high for it to be worthwhile. Then there's the issue of sagging; if it's sagged then the buyer won't be happy either.
So it could be that some painters just feel bad about charging customers enough money to make finecast worthwhile, or charging customers lots of money for a figure that's so badly cast and likely to collapse on them.
Sean_OBrien wrote: They dont just charge for an extra hour of labor because it isnt that simple...
One model they might end up having only flashing to clean up, another might need a face resculpted. They may need to spend an hour or three driving to the local game store to swap out figures and try to find one that isnt damaged. They might end up sitting on hold with GW for an hour while arranging a replacement figure.
If they are even reasonably busy, you have several months worth of projects in backlog, and waiting a week or two for a new figure to arrive and hoping it is useable (and if not...another week or two). If you have given timelines to customers...that is a good way to blow your entire work schedule.
Nothing in there says PR stunt. Just because they use the same photo, only indicates they used the same photo. It would be like not believing that my dog goes poo in the yard. We all know dogs go poo, I no longer require photographic evidence to support the claim. Quite often Finecast are poo...evidence only being needed if it is an amazingly large pile of poo.
Yes, and that is part of the upfront charge for each model. You update customers that there are delays and are waiting for new figs. All part of time management. Then while you wait, you work on other projects. It is a little thing called multitasking. I'm pretty sure you have heard of it.
Companies in demand can charge the price they want. You want me to do a finecast model? That will be an extra $100-500 for potential hassle.
That they can't demand the extra hassle cost means they don't have enough demand and are trying to drum up business. Everyone has a price, people didn't want to meet theirs. For supposedly having to do deal with multiple bad models, there is a total lack of evidence. There are plenty of WIP shots by these artists and I'm pretty certain they have sent complaint pictures to customers showing potential delays due to defects. As they have clearly complained about the impact on schedule, there should be pictures to back it. All three sculptors doing the same thing around the same time smacks of coordination. It's nothing more that several actors suddenly saying they are skipping an award show. If Tom Cruise isn't going, then I better not go either or I will look bad. It has generated page hits and potentially drummed up business. Mission Accomplished.
They cant demand the extra hassle cost because 90% of people buying painted minis are cheap. they rarely if ever would want to offer up more money, they only want to offer up less.
Even the rich people still like hunting for deals and haggling when it comes to minis.
This is probably because commission painters have a nasty habit of selling themselves short.
Don't know about the rest of you but I've never had to replace a metal figure eight times because of miscast issues.
I've had metal models be miscast to the point of beyond salvageable but I've gotten a replacement that was fine. I've had roughly ten finecast kits (couple space marine, couple IG, a Necron or two) and while the sculpts that aren't miscast are fantastic, the ones that suffer from issues are horrendous.
I can understand that someone who makes their living based around painting and modeling not wanting to deal with the russian-roulette that is finecast. Honestly, people who don't do it for a living really don't have any basis for a counter-argument. "LOL, these guys must suck as hobbyists because they can't take ten minutes to fix a figure.", if they have to make half an army out of finecast models, that ten minutes turns into hours or days of repairs.
I don't envy guys who do this for a living, it's got to be infuriating.
There are really some things people are not putting on the table here regarding finecast shortcomings...
- A painter is not a sculptor, both charge differently because sculpting takes a different approach and timings etc in comparison to painting.
- Unreliable random models... How can you make a quote if you have no clue how things will get you your hands? It can be some bubbles filling or sculpting full faces... quite different.
- After all clean and painted there is another problem, model can snap with the smallest pressure, bend on shipping and even melt... these things are fragile so client in the end would ask for refund or redo all over again... Guess who is losing money here?
Winterdyne was a bit to explicit on the point but I believe he just wanted to separate common painters from top professional ones... there are just different levels of attention to detail here and that makes a difference.
NAVARRO wrote: There are really some things people are not putting on the table here regarding finecast shortcomings...
- A painter is not a sculptor, both charge differently because sculpting takes a different approach and timings etc in comparison to painting.
- Unreliable random models... How can you make a quote if you have no clue how things will get you your hands? It can be some bubbles filling or sculpting full faces... quite different.
- After all clean and painted there is another problem, model can snap with the smallest pressure, bend on shipping and even melt... these things are fragile so client in the end would ask for refund or redo all over again... Guess who is losing money here?
Winterdyne was a bit to explicit on the point but I believe he just wanted to separate common painters from top professional ones... there are just different levels of attention to detail here and that makes a difference.
I totally agree with all of this. Being fine for my own use doesn't mean that it is good for commissions. Some crazy models which are hard to assemble and ship are also not great for commissions. Painters should use their discretion and not taking on 'finecast' is a reasonable line IMHO.
Finecast is one of the reasons I started pulling away from Games Workshop; not only the lack of quality, but the price increase hit at the exact same time. And then, after all of that, they came out with products to sell you to fix the miniatures that you just opened. They replaced a miniature that I could've bought cheaper and without flaws in metal with an inferior product and asked me to pay more for it. After that, my wallet started closing up. It was all metal from eBay or nothing at all. I would proxy Finecast miniatures if I had to, or scratch-build them. Irrelevant now as they've completely turned me off as a customer.
puma713 wrote: And then, after all of that, they came out with products to sell you to fix the miniatures that you just opened.
That's been one of the biggest changes to my view on GW; when I took back a miscast the guys first solution was to try and sell me LGS to fix it, rather than to offer a replacement. I've never before encountered any other company who wants to charge to fix a defective product like that.
I was standing outside GW with Atacam The day finecast was released. After trying and failing to find a model without significant flaws he showed me a Mcvey resin peice to show what could be acheived with resin and why he was so disappointed with GWs efforts.
Needless to say the McVey peice was 1000x better than any thing from workshop, no flaws at all. Now obviously this is a showpeice model not a mass production gaming peice but even so.
I've not really spoken to Atacam recently about Finecast but i am well aware of his opinions of it. Now i havent looked through this thread all the way but one reason for the ban may be standards. These are all professional painters and you will want your work to look as good as possible. Finecast will definitely prohibit this. You can only polish a turd so much.
MajorTom11 wrote: It's really not that simple. It isn't just bubbles and the like, which have to be smoothed beyond the comprehension of 98% of the hobby populace in order to accomodate the blending and brushwork of the masters... it sounds nit-picky and 'come on!' but whether you believe it or not, it is true, it's that nit-picky a thing.
That can be dealt with, but as has been said may cost 8-10 hours of additional time to fix in some cases.
But there are irrecoverable finecast issues too, missing detail potentially one of them, but the big one is misaligned molds... I have had this on several models, including 3 necrons and the 25th anniversary marine. It is irrecoverable. You can't file of GS your way out of that, it is as fundamental a flaw as you can get.
This.
I've made one finecast purchase- a rock lobba. The mold was severely misaligned. I could have spent hours making it look how it did on the box, and based on how much it cost I should have returned it, but fortunately the lobba is supposed to look like crap, so I figured it wouldn't be too noticeable. If this was a commission piece it would have had to have been returned.
I want to like finecast, but my first purchase put me off. I've been buying used metal models on ebay rather than buying new finecast ones. I'm sure not every model has these issues, but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth.
More than a year after the Necron release, I bought a Finecast Anrakyr the Traveler... it looked like someone took a lighter to the accessory sprue. Called up GW and they sent out another... which looked just as bad. Besides, the warscythes on the sprue weren't sharp. I mean... they looked like the NERF version of the warscythe. Horrible.. I'm in the process of converting up the special characters I want. I won't buy another finecast model.
I have to agree, the painter is not a sculptor and doesn't have the time or inclination to deal with this....
I have a couple of problems with finecast.
1. I can accept that there are some limitations to resin however when I compare FW resin to Finecast resin, there is no comparison. Finecast is light crappy stuff that melts, bends, warps. The only problem I have had with FW resin is snapping of long slender pieces.
2. The bad bad salesmanship of GW. As I recall, they said this change had to happen because of the high cost of metal. OK fine but then this was accompanied by a 50% price hike. Add to that the initial quality problems and it was an auto fail.
I think they would have gotten better PR if they had left the choice to the buyer. 25$ for a metal version or 12:50 $ for a finecast version. Then people would have had nothing to blame but themselves... Instead GW decided to make the change, up the cost of 12$ models to 18$ and then perform little or no quality control.
It definitely wasn't one of the easier models to assemble, it was the model that taught me to use correct glue for the job. Using regular superglue wasn't good enough, but epoxy glue worked fine and it held together fine, from memory I didn't even pin it.
