Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes, actually. I know the OP personally. Nice guy, and actually trying to push forward the painting hobby globally. Possibly insane, but also a real ferret for news in the miniature painting / modelling / gaming hobby. He spends a great deal of time and money getting and putting out news. Edit: I think he posts on pretty much EVERY mini-related forum he can find. Pretty certain he was uploading GDUK footage while I was still on the stage and he was still recording.

Again, you're talking complete tosh.

Nope, Bogun and several others just announced this decision last week, it's fresh news. There were many who made the move early on like Matt Fontaine and others, but this latest wave represents a significant portion of the remaining European master houses and I assure you is of great interest to the painting community, and obviously by consequence those who are fans and those who are customers.

As for the rest, I have always been proud that Dakka gives everyone a chance and venue to promote their work and get some extra eyes on it. It's good for them, and if they are good, it's good for the community. Is it possible to abuse the fact we allow it? Yes it is, but the line has not been crossed here. Kan the op is welcome here at Dakka, even if be doesn't participate in his threads after the fact. Maybe some of us, like myself lol, could take a lesson to post and go instead of lurking!

At jah and winterdyne in particular, completely agree. Both those guys are award winning pro painters for at least 5 years... And as for me I have an award or two as well, though I wouldn't quite put myself in their company. I think winterdyne is very correct in his assessment. Hard to hear for some maybe but pretty demonstrably true none the less. Let experts be experts sometimes guys, it doesn't do anything good for them to then down commissions or sales, or not work on a model they like.

winterdyne wrote:
Yes, actually. I know the OP personally. Nice guy, and actually trying to push forward the painting hobby globally. Possibly insane, but also a real ferret for news in the miniature painting / modelling / gaming hobby. He spends a great deal of time and money getting and putting out news. Edit: I think he posts on pretty much EVERY mini-related forum he can find. Pretty certain he was uploading GDUK footage while I was still on the stage and he was still recording.

Again, you're talking complete tosh.

You're welcome to think that I'm doing nothing but "talking complete tosh"(a phrase I am going to have to completely start working into everyday conversation). But again, it's YOUR experience with him.

He can be the nicest guy you know--but how the heck would I know that?
I have no experience with him outside of Dakka, because I keep myself on just Dakka. I know my limitations and I know that posting on CMON is not what I would consider to be an experience for me. I know I'm going to be doing tabletop quality work, at best and as such I keep myself on a forum with a community that I like.
My experience with him is postings like this, this, this, and this.

And that experience has led me to have the perception that he behaves the way an attention seeking blogger (who admittedly has good taste in user names and reading material) who has no interest in Dakka beyond blog hits would.
Could my perception be completely wrong? It most certainly could, but without more interaction it's the perception I have.

I will most certainly apologize for having been a bit brazen and rude to begin with, but I like Dakka. I like the community that we have here. I like that we have individuals like yourself or Major Tom who have no problems calling people like myself to task when they do not have all the facts or what you consider to be the wrong viewpoint.
But I do ask that you at least try to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a big famous painter who enters competitions regularly or someone who even feels comfortable with posting most of the work he does online. Some of the names that you know personally or people you have rubbed elbows with at a convention's painting competition might not be readily recognizable to someone like myself.

Personally I've tried to steer clear of finecast as far as possible making it a point to track down a metal version for my commission jobs if possible. Its lead to me taking on more Warmachine/hordes commissions and from that the local community has grown.

No one got into wargaming for the rules sets. We all got in because it looks cool. We'll see if more commission work regarding other gaming systems begins to become more prevalent from the major studios.

I think his interest in Dakka is 'dump news, move on'. That's fine. Well, there's a bit more than that, but that's all there needs to be. I doubt he gets time for much else. He posts pretty much everywhere within minutes of getting news. Eager little beaver.

As an aside; I think his overall aim is to provide a central hub (via his blog) of reliable news from the mini painting world. That he cross posts any information at all is a credit to him, those of a more mercenary outlook might simply post just the link to their blog article. Of course there are plans in place to monetise (advertising his painting DVDs on there for example). This is no different from ITN/CNN etc allowing advert breaks in news programming.

In more direct response; the OP is pretty much bang on the money; name dropping simply specifies. These are some of the best and biggest commission guys in Europe (world class painters really) that we're talking about. I'm not a world class tennis player but if in a discussion about tennis players refusing to play with such-and-such balls, I might exercise the old google-fu and see what's what.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aosol wrote:
We'll see if more commission work regarding other gaming systems begins to become more prevalent from the major studios.

It already is for me. Reasonable size jobs from Black Scorpion, Mantic and uh, whoever does Infinity (not in studio right now).

I think a good analogue to this is the Xbox red ring of death event.

On the pro Xbox side, it was still a great console when it worked, had great exclusives, superior online and a superior controller. In short, it was worth it. Also of note were all the people posting its not that bad, my Xbox is fine and I've had it since launch, and all my friends too! As if that meant the problem didn't exist or was exaggerated.

On the against side people thought the flaw was completely unnaceptable, the weeks to month long wait for a fixed console too long, and better alternatives like the ps3 were there? Why risk buying a Xbox with a 40% chance of a dud?

Much like here two the camps were mostly divided between pro and against groups anyways, who had preformed opinions based on many other positive and negative factors alike.

There was no particular right or wrong, it was just where your values lay. One key difference though being Microsoft copped to the problems and then sorted it out.

I don't think winterdyne, myself or the others think people are idiots for liking finecast. If it makes you happy it makes you happy, fair enough. There are logical reasons to value the weight and ease of glueing over the finish and consistency. The thing that irks the crap out of people like us (forgive me for speaking for others) is the small percentage of people who deny there are issues at all against all the overwhelming evidence. Maybe the scale of the issue is up for the debate, but that there are notable issues shouldn't be. At that point it starts getting into tin foil hat territory for me lol.

Edited by Manchu

A name and shame isn't really called for. Could a mod please remove that; it's exactly what I didn't want to see. Rather than say 'you can't paint' at people, why not show and explain to them *how* to paint better? This is supposed to be a constructive and reasonably social hobby, not an elitist one.

Indeed, that is certainly not acceptable... it's a fairly tense subject already and there is absolutely no need to actively engage in that kind of behavior, nevermind that it breaks half the rules we have.

I apologize to anyone who read that post, and am thankful Manchu was here to moderate it in a timely manner.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Indeed, that is certainly not acceptable... it's a fairly tense subject already and there is absolutely no need to actively engage in that kind of behavior, nevermind that it breaks half the rules we have.

I apologize to anyone who read that post, and am thankful Manchu was here to moderate it in a timely manner.

I read it and almost stooped to his level and asked where his fantastically painted minis were because he also has 0 gallery images, and then my senses took hold

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.

Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

I'd gladly pay bit more if BFG ships came out in Finecast. Metal ships require just as much preparation, are bitch to paint because the paint keeps chipping off, nearly impossible to convert...

Play Tau. Buy from Forge World. Problem solved.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.

Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

I am willing to bet you used GW's weak-as-cat-piss glue. Don't blame the material if you use sub-par products to put it together.

How does the saying go about bad workmen and their tools?

 Breotan wrote:
Play Tau. Buy from Forge World. Problem solved.

Sure, but I don't really like FW Tau rules, and ship selection is small...

For those of you slamming metal because it 'chips too much' and 'it just won't stay put' when you try and glue it, consider using a decent primer and a pin vice. You can varnish a model until you're blue in the face but if the paint hasn't adhered to the surface it's never going to stay put.

As for the pinning, it keeps things in place while the glue is drying, so well that you can use slow-dry adhesives without going to to sleep with the model in your hands! (Removing grease with a quick toothbrush/soap scrub combo is also a great way to increase bond strength).

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.

Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

I haven't just built "a" metal Tyrant, I built a 3rd edition one It definitely wasn't one of the easier models to assemble, it was the model that taught me to use correct glue for the job. Using regular superglue wasn't good enough, but epoxy glue worked fine and it held together fine, from memory I didn't even pin it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't know how people can think Finecast is superior given its many issues. What's wrong with metal? It's a bit heavier and more difficult to file and cut. You've been spoiled on plastic kits being so easy to work with. Things being easy to cut isn't the be-all of miniatures. Overall, metal is more reliable, miscasts are far less frequent than Finecast. I've bought masses of metal figures and the miscasts are rare, if I want to see questionable casts of Finecast I only have to look at the rack in any shop. I think there's quite a correlation between the age of customers and enthusiasm for Finecast. The hatred of metal is largely from newer gamers.

Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

I am willing to bet you used GW's weak-as-cat-piss glue. Don't blame the material if you use sub-par products to put it together.

How does the saying go about bad workmen and their tools?

Nope. 2-part heavy duty Araldite epoxy resin. And it took 5 goes to get it to stick together. Pins, superglue of various brands, epoxy, even Uhu (don't ask me why, I was desperate)-I tried everything.

In the end, the answer turned out to be a mixture of Liquid Green Stuff and superglue. It works like a charm, for future reference. Just mix the 2 together, stick the parts together, and blam. Use an old brush though.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

...

Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

Yep, both the 3rd edition and 2nd edition ones. The tricks you may have been missing is to stuff body cavities with blu-tack, to file or clip off locating nubs where they're misaligned and put short pins in instead and to ensure your superglue is decent. An accelerator is also very useful. Epoxy adhesive works well in addition to superglue for an instant tack.

I paint Finecast models on commission, but some of the casts are hit-and-miss. They are WAY better now than when they first came out, however.

The worst model I've ever assembled was the Troolbloods Mountain King from Privateer Press. I'm painting it right now, but the cast was AWFUL! The back spine/rocks were too wide for the shoulder inset, there were huge gaps all over the model, misaligned details on the mold lines, large chunks of resin in weird places that didn't belong on the model, but were sure to snap off pieces of the model during removal...

Mind you, this was one of the recalled, opened, and inspected kits. Then the nearby store owner bought another one after I got mine, and it had a lot of the same problems. In fact, the Privateer Colossals/Gargantuans in general have been horrid. Mammoth came in that way, the Merc Colossal came with a cracked leg (and the replacement still couldn't hold the torso upright), and lots of WarmaHordes players in my area keep buying these models. 3 out of 3 (yes, 3 out of 3) have had problems.

My most recent Forgeworld purchase (Abaddon vs. Loken) had a lot of bubbles, miscasts, and weird flash too.

Resin lends itself to detail, but is difficult to mass produce for whatever reason.

Still, I absolutely HATE working with metal. If you get even a slightly miscast model, the mold line is irreparable without cutting detail off the figure. It's weighted poorly. If it tips against cardboard the pieces fall off. Pinning is an absolute pain in the ass (especially if not lined up perfectly), the details are chunkier, the paint flakes off if you look at it wrong...

I still paint metal figures on commission, but assembly is awful. Weight matters as much as ease of cleaning, and metal is just more difficult to transport as well.

winterdyne wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

...

Have you had the deep joy of assembling a metal Hive Tyrant?

Because nobody, I repeat, NOBODY, can convince me that metal is better than Finecast after the unspeakable...nightmare that was assembling that bastard. I swear, trying to glue the thing together made me want to punch a baby.

Yep, both the 3rd edition and 2nd edition ones. The tricks you may have been missing is to stuff body cavities with blu-tack, to file or clip off locating nubs where they're misaligned and put short pins in instead and to ensure your superglue is decent. An accelerator is also very useful. Epoxy adhesive works well in addition to superglue for an instant tack.

But look at everything you had to do just to get the metal to maybe hold together. Then there were weird scale issues (e.g. said Hive Tyrant had a head twice as large as the rest of the damn model). It takes longer to clean metal than resin, it's more difficult to clean metal than resin, and you still rely on hope that it will stay together once assembled. Forget if it ever tips over...

Hah! Have fun with the marketing ploys of a cheap company making bank on the ignorance of it's consumers. Finecast is nothing compared to pewter.

The only metal model I've ever had difficulty with was Urien Rackarth. Specifically, the extra arms. Could'a pinned, should'a pinned. Absolutely needed accelerator and a bit of putty to hold things together.

Don't get me wrong, I really really like resin as a material (a very nice example: http://rainingfrogsgarage.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/the-barbarian-dude.html - yes, I have one, nah na-nah nah. :-p). I do strongly disagree about it taking longer, or being more difficult to clean metal. It's different work, but case by case (with reasonable casts on both sides) it's roughly equivalent in terms of time.

One thing I will say resins have in their favour is light weight; but in truth I'm a great believer that mixed-medium kits are the optimum for many designs. Consider the Mangler Squigs - if the supporting leg were metal (not the whole thing!) then the kit as a whole would be much more stable. If a Zoanthrope body or tail were metal but the head resin, the same; you get a lower centre of gravity and a more stable result. Make large, potentially very heavy or overbearing parts of a light material, make structural components out of a rigid heavy material. Win. But what do I know?

When it first came out I had a terrible experience with it but after checking out other peoples tau crisis commanders on the internet I decided to get one and it didn't take too much work, although there is still a pretty bad air bubble problem.
I prefer it a lot more than metal but quality still isn't quite good enough.

 heartserenade wrote:
Let me just point out that 2 out of 20 models is still a pretty bad percentage. Even 3 out 60. That's 5-10% of the product you sell being defective. What company would sell a product that will turn out defective 5-10% of the time?

Well, since you mention it...

Ok, So lets me get this straight, If i like finecast, I must not be a good painter? Generalization much
I like finecast because it is so easy to work with. My first experience was less then steller. but every single model i got after it was just fine, nothing wrong, and i have roughly 15-20 finecast models.

I already made that comparrison a page or so ago Ouze

The point that a hive tyrant was a bastard to put together in metal is besides the point... of course large metal models are troublesome and need pinning...

The real point is that before ever opening the box, you have a predictable process to go through to get the model ready, and when you are done pinning and glueing, the model will be near perfect except maybe some gs gap filling. Predictable is the key word here, you can account for that in your cost, making it friendlier for commision work even if there is still prep to do. Consistency and Quality control are the issues with finecast, it's not even a question as to whether or not there are differences, of course there are.

BTW, if you think a hive tyrant was tough, you should try this bugger sometime... what an absolute nightmare, and I was way too young to understand pinning or have the right tools, I can't tell you how many times that ankle broke, the wings fell off or the thing tipped over by itself...

I have recently just given up on Finecast. I too hated working with metal models, but Finecast is so much worse. I know there are a bunch of gamers out there who are perfectly content with pulling a model out of the box, cutting it off the sprue, gluing it together, and slapping some paint on it. I'm not that type of gamer. Clean up on plastic models takes me time. I fix imperfections, I smooth rough edges, I green stuff minor gaps. After working with about 10 different cryptek models, I've finally given up. The fact that they needed to create liquid green stuff to specifically fix all the problems that Finecast has is a complete indication of the fail level of the product.

I now just convert plastic kits. I'm not wasting $20 on HQ choices that are going to take me a week to get right.

OK, one thing I don't understand from these "top painters", I have worked with several painters for higher and all of them adjust their pricing based on the size, complexity, and quality of the figs. I do know they have charged more for "difficult" figs. They adjusted their finecast quotes appropriately. Why these top painters aren't charging a premium extra for finecast? It takes up to an hour longer than normal for a fig? Charge an extra hour of labor. If the fig is fine, profit! If it is messed up, you have the time and money allocated.

If they can afford to turn away work, that means they are so in demand they can afford to charge an extra premium for finecast labor.

Sorry, this reeks of a PR stunt to drum up business for these painters. Both painters pointing to the same blurry pic as "proof" is questionable. If both had shown separate figs that were pocked marked and greenstuffed as proof of their frustration, I would have believe it more.

And yes, for the record, I think GW's finecast quality is crap. I love resin and plastic and hate metal. GW's stuff is such a crapshoot that I avoid it.

winterdyne wrote:
'What great exposure they're getting' derails your point. Especially when they really, really don't need the exposure.

The point is, that very high level painters are refusing to work on the material.

Now, an apology for those I may inadvertently insult; this is not intentional, not personal, merely an observation, and one from the point of view of a professional who takes pride in the standard their work.

Those that 'prefer Finecast', 'think it's OK', and 'don't have a problem with it' (paraphrased, any similarity to actual quotes unintended) are, on the whole and by all appearances, Not Very Good Painters or Modellers.

Poor focus, badly lit pictures of 'sharp detail' abound. Paintwork that ranges from childish to 'very basic tabletop'. Find me someone with an average CMON score of 7.5 or better who agrees with the 'it's not gak, really' standpoint and I will post a public retraction of this statement. Maybe it's lack of experience. Maybe it's poor eyesight. Poor judgement? Or simply a different idea of what is an acceptable standard.

We are fed pictures (in magazines / the web and by all manufacturers) of models finished to a high standard. Very often the painted examples (most of the time done by freelance commission guys - only GW use in house painters AFAIK) we see are preproduction casts and may be unrelated to the actual product we buy. This is false advertising.

If I bought a (modern) Ferrari and took it to the test track, I'd want it to go 120mph without vibrating itself to pieces, and without having to refit and rebalance the suspension myself. If I couldn't drive it myself, I wouldn't want to have to pay the driver I hire to do the suspension work either.

Okay... I am going to disagree here - even though I really, truly, and utterly do not like Finecast!

Some of the folks that do like Finecast are very good at preparing, painting, and presenting miniatures.

When the models come out of the molds in good shape then they are just fine, mostly. (That whole melting in the window thing aside.)

Other times the fix itself can be enjoyable - unless you are on a time table.

The problem is that with Finecast things go wrong in the mold too often for a professional (that is someone that paints for commissions - taking money for the job) to plan a timetable around.

When nothing goes wrong you can get the mini, prep, prime, paint, and post. A good resin miniature is better for this than a metal one.

But if you have a pock filled, peeling, gaparrific model then you have to order a replacement model, maybe have to wait for returning the original, and hoping that the replacement is problem free... by the time the replacement comes then you have lost a week or more.

GW could avoid a lot of this if they had reliable QA. This is something that they can fix. But as it stands....

So, not just that the folks that like Finecast are bad modelers - some are excellent modelers that enjoy the challenge.

But folks that need to prep, prime, paint, and post...? A whole different story.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Fixed some typos - because typing with a dislocated thumb is so much fun!

They dont just charge for an extra hour of labor because it isnt that simple...

One model they might end up having only flashing to clean up, another might need a face resculpted. They may need to spend an hour or three driving to the local game store to swap out figures and try to find one that isnt damaged. They might end up sitting on hold with GW for an hour while arranging a replacement figure.

If they are even reasonably busy, you have several months worth of projects in backlog, and waiting a week or two for a new figure to arrive and hoping it is useable (and if not...another week or two). If you have given timelines to customers...that is a good way to blow your entire work schedule.

Nothing in there says PR stunt. Just because they use the same photo, only indicates they used the same photo. It would be like not believing that my dog goes poo in the yard. We all know dogs go poo, I no longer require photographic evidence to support the claim. Quite often Finecast are poo...evidence only being needed if it is an amazingly large pile of poo.