20774
Post by: pretre
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/05/01/network-news-battlefoam-v-blood-kittens/ , and Mr. Hayden filed for declaratory Tastytaste wrote:This is the official announcement by Blood of Kittens that Battlefoam LLC has taken legal action against this site over a post made in March.
Everything in that post I believe is true, gathered from sources and material available from the Internet, and since being threatened with legal action, I have done subsequent research and gotten sworn statements from witnesses that further prove its truth. For the time being, while certain aspects of the case are pending, the original post in question has been taken down.
However, it will be back up as soon as possible, and in no way should the fact that I took it down be viewed as an admission of any wrong doing. I took it down to try and facilitate a constructive dialogue with the party who made the legal threat, Romeo Filip of Battlefoam. It has not seemed to help, but I don’t want it to be said that I did not try everything in my power to maintain the high ground. Romeo and Battlefoam seem to insist upon forcing me to prove my statements were true, in a court of law. Once I do, not only will I put the article back up, but I will put the judgment there too, as the ultimate proof of the truth of my statements.
To better understand what is going on here is Battlefoam’s original C&D and my legal response to it.
Battlefoam C&D Full
Blood of Kittens Battlefoam Response
These documents are matter of public record and because lawyers are now involved, I cannot go into as much detail as I would like, but let these documents reflect exactly what this case is about.
Blood of Kittens takes its ability to present hard hitting news and information very importantly, and this site will continue to do so for as long as possible.
I was lucky enough to procure a pro-bono defense, but that didn’t stop me from incurring a sizable amount of legal costs. The money I would normally use for the hosting Blood of Kittens has been effected. In order for Blood of Kittens to operate I have to do something I thought I would never need to do, and ask the community for help with donations.
In light of a completely unrelated site take downs, I think it is essential, more than ever, to keep on doing what this site does, be it rumors, news, or blunt commentary about all aspects within our community. So, if you like to support that continuation please donate whatever you can, I don’t expect the donations to reach the level to pay back the money I have invested, but anything will help.
Your Donation Amount:
Your total amount is : 0.00 (Currency: USD)
If by some miracle I get donations exceeding the funds lost, the overage will go to the organization that made it possible for me to get the amazing lawyers defending the site today.
The Online Media Legal Network.
OMLN provides an invaluable legal referral service, with their main goal to find pro-bono or reduce rate lawyers to defend online journalists and bloggers. So, if you don’t like Blood of Kittens at least consider donating to them, because defending journalism and freedom of speech is something everyone can get behind.
Discussion is limited to the specifics of pending litigation, and check your emotional baggage at the door. Slinging mud at specific individuals based on nothing but heresay will result in action
Remember the rules and stick to them people. MT11   
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Post by: Redbeard
Nice. Good to see GW's industry leading practices are making their way through the rest of the hobby.
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Post by: pretre
 Redbeard wrote:Nice. Good to see GW's industry leading practices are making their way through the rest of the hobby.
Hasn't BF been sue happy well before the recent spat of GW legal fun?
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Post by: Desubot
What was the original post about?
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Post by: Alfndrate
Anyone got a copy of the post in question? Edit: The C&D from Battle Foam's attorney may have it. Edit: While he said it to me at AdeptiCon, it's nice to see "official" and "legal" documents saying that he owns Outlaw Miniatures 
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Post by: nkelsch
So this is a slander case? This should be fun for the armchair lawyers to talk about.
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Post by: ironicsilence
what was the post about that made battlefoam grumpy? Was it just general anti battlefoam postings?
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Post by: pretre
Someone could use a web archive to look at this page:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/07/meat-meta-bad-battlefoam-practices/
It has since been pulled down and archivers are blocked for me at work.
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Post by: Mohoc
Mh... the title is wrong..... Blood Of Kittens has sue Battlefoam, not the other way.
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Post by: kronk
Mohoc wrote:Mh... the title is wrong..... Blood Of Kittens has sue Battlefoam, not the other way.
? I don't think you're reading it correctly. "Battlefoam LLC has taken legal action against this site over a post made in March" and "I was lucky enough to procure a pro-bono defense" among other things.
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Post by: BrookM
The article in question has been taken down, does anybody know of the contents of the pulled article?
20774
Post by: pretre
 BrookM wrote:The article in question has been taken down, does anybody know of the contents of the pulled article?
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Post by: weeble1000
nkelsch wrote:So this is a slander case? This should be fun for the armchair lawyers to talk about.
Not really. From what I understand it is a pretty darn cut and dry situation. Defamation is going to be very hard to prove in this case, and I expect that it will get tossed pre-trial with little fuss. True statements are true, and the First Amendment is pretty powerful in the US.
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Post by: Neronoxx
Redbeard wrote:Nice. Good to see GW's industry leading practices are making their way through the rest of the hobby.
This hardly seems the same.
If it is true that BoK posted articles in such a manner as described, then he had it coming. It's one thing to not like a business, and another to publically lie about them. That said, if the claims provided by battlefoam are false, why take down the article if he intended to fight it anyways?
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Post by: Mohoc
 kronk wrote:Mohoc wrote:Mh... the title is wrong..... Blood Of Kittens has sue Battlefoam, not the other way.
? I don't think you're reading it correctly.
"Battlefoam LLC has taken legal action against this site over a post made in March" and "I was lucky enough to procure a pro-bono defense" among other things.
No, I am not reading it wrong. TastyTaste got a C&D letter from Battle Foam and turned around and filed a lawsuit against them.
Here is the C&D:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Battlefoam-CD-Full.pdf
Here is the lawsuit TastyTaste filed:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Blood-of-Kittens-Battlefoam-Response.pdf
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Post by: pretre
Looks like the original post is not in Google Cache or Wayback.
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Post by: BrookM
Exactly.
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Post by: Polonius
Mohoc is actually right. While Battle Foam threatened legal action, BoK actually filed the complaint.
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Post by: Cyporiean
I remember seeing the article during the Outlaw Miniatures Kickstarter, everything in it seemed true.
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
 Cyporiean wrote:I remember seeing the article during the Outlaw Miniatures Kickstarter, everything in it seemed true.
Can't anyone paraphrase what it said? There seems to be no way to currently see the original article.
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Post by: pretre
Finding tidbits:
"Then you have the case of Romeo promising a lifetime discount for anyone tattooing Battlefoam on their body. Well one sad individual did such a thing and Romeo denied ever making the offer. So, with email trail in hand the tattooed man got into a haggling argument over the percentage of the discount, with I think a final agreement settling at 30% off."
“BE WARNED. Outlaw Minatures is actually Battlefoam. Be warned in case if you were buying into their Kickstarter. ”
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Those two deserve each other.
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Post by: Danny Internets
While I'm no big fan of legal bullying, it's hard to feel sympathy for TastyTaste with all of the gak-slinging that he does on his site. Perhaps he'll learn a valuable lesson about inventing controversy.
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Post by: pities2004
weeble1000 wrote:nkelsch wrote:So this is a slander case? This should be fun for the armchair lawyers to talk about.
Not really. From what I understand it is a pretty darn cut and dry situation. Defamation is going to be very hard to prove in this case, and I expect that it will get tossed pre-trial with little fuss. True statements are true, and the First Amendment is pretty powerful in the US.
Romeo does a great job of Defamation on himself, met this dude at Empire Games plenty of times.
Walking DB syndrome.
Throws lawsuits at everyone, Karma will catch up to him sometime just wait. His rip off gaming store "saloon" is a joke.
booo
But thats enough out of me, he might try to sue me too.
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Post by: weeble1000
 Polonius wrote: Mohoc is actually right. While Battle Foam threatened legal action, BoK actually filed the complaint.
Yea, but it is a DJ action. Battlefoam threatened legal action, and Mr. Hayden filed for declaratory judgment, which I suspect will be granted. It is a put-up-or-shut-up sort of thing. You threaten to sue me, I go to the court and say that you have no basis to file a lawsuit against me. If the Court finds that you don't, you can't follow through on your threat. It may be technically true that Mr. Hayden filed the complaint, but it is an entirely appropriate response to Battlefoam's Cease and Desist letter, which threatened legal action. You can't threaten a lawsuit without having a legitimate basis to do so. That's why sending out a bunch of C&D letters is not always a good idea...
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Post by: Noir
Polonius wrote:
Mohoc is actually right. While Battle Foam threatened legal action, BoK actually filed the complaint.
If you lived in CA would you want to fight it in AZ. He just making sure the fight is were he lives.
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Post by: Absolutionis
Wow, hot on the tails of the recent GW C&D on blogs comes the most recent Romeo Rage.
I wonder if he threatened to physically beat up the Blood of Kittens owner like he did during the Infinity Podcast Romeo Rage incident.
Does anyone else remember when he sent something along the lines of a C&D to Sabol warning them that even though they pretty much founded the miniatures foam idea, that they shouldn't copy the Battlefoams?
Romeo is scum yet his rages are entertaining. It's disappointing that people actually get harmed in the process.
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Post by: weeble1000
Noir wrote: Polonius wrote:
Mohoc is actually right. While Battle Foam threatened legal action, BoK actually filed the complaint.
If you lived in CA would you want to fight it in AZ. He just making sure the fight is were he lives.
That is an excellent point.
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Post by: Pacific
Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
 Pacific wrote:Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
Which is too bad because I actually like his products a lot.
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Post by: ironicsilence
 OverwatchCNC wrote: Pacific wrote:Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
Which is too bad because I actually like his products a lot.
i believe GW has proven that a company can be successful despite itself
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Post by: Alfndrate
OverwatchCNC wrote: Pacific wrote:Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
Which is too bad because I actually like his products a lot.
General consensus amongst the people I talked to at AdeptiCon, Battlefoam is an awesome product... Romeo is not...
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Post by: BrookM
Pacific wrote:Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
Who did he rage at? Another foam competitor who, heaven forbid, isn't as expensive as their stuff, or another baseball bat supplier that called him on his business.
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Post by: Alfndrate
BrookM wrote: Pacific wrote:Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
Who did he rage at? Another foam competitor who, heaven forbid, isn't as expensive as their stuff, or another baseball bat supplier that called him on his business.
Look up the Warstore, Sabol, and Battlefoam Foam Wars, there was also some issues with an Infinity podcast... but Pacific seems to know more than I.
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Post by: Kanluwen
BrookM wrote: Pacific wrote:Was going to mention the Infinity business before. At this risk of getting sued (or beaten up), I'll just say that I don't think this guy helps to sell his products..
Who did he rage at? Another foam competitor who, heaven forbid, isn't as expensive as their stuff, or another baseball bat supplier that called him on his business.
Without going into a huge amount of the details:
He raged at people on the official Infinity forum who were veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrry critical of the Infinity O-12 Podcast. Some of the criticisms were completely valid, but quite a few of them were just silly criticisms.
Following that he did put an apology in the podcast for his behavior, which doesn't excuse it or lessen the issue, but it's not something most people would necessarily do after having an internet tough guy blowup.
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Post by: Kirasu
Romeo seems to have a severe anger problem. That is not a good quality in a business owner.
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Post by: ph34r
I've never been given a great impression of Romeo as an individual. Battlefoam seems like a good product but from this he seems to do it a disservice.
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Post by: Killionaire
Are we surprised really?
Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.
And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!
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Post by: Baldsmug
I remember reading the article. It was about the poor business practices of the dude that owned battle foam and how he promised prize support and didn't deliver and if he did it would be just the case and not the foam. And how he pitched a fit about something or another here and there and was kind of a dick in general. The way the post was written it seemed like it may have been personal or something. It was not anymore derogatory or libelous than anything anyone else would write about GW on a normal tuesday lol. but i guess since it was a featured article of BoK it must have rubbed someone the wrong way.
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Post by: warboss
Sigh.. someone apparently took the final part of Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back waaaaaay too seriously.
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Post by: unmercifulconker
Hahaha dat physical threat, 'you dont know what im capable of herp derp derpy herp derp.'
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Post by: Kanluwen
 Killionaire wrote:Are we surprised really?
Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.
And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!
Look. I dislike Romeo's behavior as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend that most of the "criticism" was valid.
Statements which could be summed up as "Romeo's a moron/doesn't know what he's talking about/etc, why don't Tom and Kip just shut him up so that they can actually be interesting?" aren't what I would deem to be "criticism".
It's being a jerk to someone and expecting them to just take it on the chin, because hey "criticism".
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Post by: jah-joshua
this is why my case is a Sabol...
cheers
jah
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
 Alfndrate wrote:
General consensus amongst the people I talked to at AdeptiCon, Battlefoam is an awesome product... Romeo is not...
Let me echo that sentiment.
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Post by: newbis
 Kanluwen wrote: Killionaire wrote:Are we surprised really?
Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.
And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!
Look. I dislike Romeo's behavior as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend that most of the "criticism" was valid.
Statements which could be summed up as "Romeo's a moron/doesn't know what he's talking about/etc, why don't Tom and Kip just shut him up so that they can actually be interesting?" aren't what I would deem to be "criticism".
It's being a jerk to someone and expecting them to just take it on the chin, because hey "criticism".
All of that is valid criticism. Fox news(?) does worse every day. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it actionable.
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Post by: Absolutionis
For further scummy business by Romeo, this was my first encounter of the product and one of the first times I posted on Dakka:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/279792.page#1362344
He basically hijacks a rival company's thread and trash-talks them in public. He later goes on to sue Outrider for being a rival or something.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I did enjoy the stickers in the elevator at Adepticon though 
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Post by: Kanluwen
 newbis wrote:
All of that is valid criticism. Fox news(?) does worse every day. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it actionable.
"Valid criticism" does not require you to resort to namecalling or to be critical of the person rather than the work that they have put forward.
Again though, let me reiterate.
I don't think Romeo is in the right. I don't think anyone who was involved in that clusterfeth of ridiculousness can come out of it and pretend that they were completely innocent.
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Post by: Alfndrate
I was trying to find a picture of those stickers to post in this thread
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Post by: Flashman
Strikes me as an extreme weather front in a small china drinking vessel.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
I have two Sabol cases: the motor pool (worth a damn) and the Division (which moves like a drunken sailor on the first day of shore leave). I regret the second purchase entirely.
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.
Time to go with Sabol instead.
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Post by: Polonius
 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.
Time to go with Sabol instead.
Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
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Post by: tyllon
haha the title is wrong. Is BoK suing Battleform. Battleform just send a C&D letter, a demand letter. A demand letter don't mean you suing someone. Is just a legal threat that all. Nick is the one filed the law sue.
Haha but i think the title is intended to be wrong. I will have to agree this is the "correct" title.
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
 Baldsmug wrote:I remember reading the article. It was about the poor business practices of the dude that owned battle foam and how he promised prize support and didn't deliver and if he did it would be just the case and not the foam. And how he pitched a fit about something or another here and there and was kind of a dick in general. The way the post was written it seemed like it may have been personal or something. It was not anymore derogatory or libelous than anything anyone else would write about GW on a normal tuesday lol. but i guess since it was a featured article of BoK it must have rubbed someone the wrong way.
Let me preface: I am not a Tasty hater.
If the article was written in Tasty's normal manner than I can almost guarantee it was written on the verge of being called a personal attack. He, Tasty, does push the envelope of slander quite a bit in his blog posts and even writes some clearly erroneous statements. That said it would appear Romeo is no better.
Either way I will continue to read Tasty's blog and I will continue to buy Battlefoam products. Someone further up said these two deserve each other and it certainly appears that way. Lucky for us it will all be a matter of public record if it goes to trial so I plan on pulling up a chair, popping some pop corn, and cracking open a beer. 
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Post by: Alpharius
Updated the title so that it is correct - please let me know if it isn't!
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Post by: OverwatchCNC
Polonius wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.
Time to go with Sabol instead.
Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
I agree. I was a Sabol user for years, the Battlefoam stuff (though insanely expensive) is a massively superior product. I love my two PACK AIR bags but hate my 2 Sabol cases Motor Pool and the small one its name escapes me...
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Post by: Breotan
I know I was reading it wrong but when I got to the part about, "Battle Foam has incurred significant damages as a result of your tortious acts" I started laughing thinking of poor Romeo in an orange jumpsuit being escorted by BoK goons to his new "home" in Guantanamo. 
Seriously, lawyers need to come up with a new word for alleged violations of tort law.
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Post by: pretre
 Alpharius wrote:Updated the title so that it is correct - please let me know if it isn't!
Thanks! I only put one point into Knowledge: Law.
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Post by: Polonius
The technical term for a person that committed a tort is a "tortfeasor."
My law school had an IM basketball team that called themselves the Tortfeasors.
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Post by: Anpu-adom
Alpharius wrote:Updated the title so that it is correct - please let me know if it isn't!
Thanks, Alpharius. It seems accurate to me.
I've picked up some battlefoam, and I like the product. It is expensive with expensive shipping, but good and sometimes the fit is funky on the models. I listen to 40K Radio; Romeo seems like a good guy to his friends (even if some would call him verbally abusive).
Blood of Kittens, and TasteyTaste, is 'hard hitting'... if 'hard hitting' is inflammatory. I stopped reading him a while back, because he doesn't match my tender sensitivities. I'm sure he's a nice guy if you know him.
This is a stupid fight between people who should be better than this. The whole situation makes me sad.
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Post by: Alfndrate
 pretre wrote: Alpharius wrote:Updated the title so that it is correct - please let me know if it isn't!
Thanks! I only put one point into Knowledge: Law.
That's not even a class skill for me!
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Post by: kronk
Thank you for the clarification, Mohoc.
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Post by: Lorek
If nothing else, both Blood of Kittens and Battlefoam have additional exposure. There's no such thing as bad publicity (or however that saying goes). Maybe it's a conspiracy.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Wow, I didn't know about this.
I am never buying a battlefoam product.
For me, the attitude of the company and the people running it does actually matter. It's the main reason why I don't buy GW.
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Post by: Polonius
Anpu-adom wrote:This is a stupid fight between people who should be better than this. The whole situation makes me sad.
This is a pretty classic example of "nobody wins but the lawyers."
OTOH...
BoK isn't stupid. they're tangling with a guy that has a pretty nasty reputation. They might be trying to gain PR as being a good guy, fighting the "good fight." That they have pro-bono representation isn't shocking, First Amendment cases are like catnip to lawyers that work for free.
That he's asking for donations to help with legal fees after retaining pro-bono counsle and filing the suit to prove a point means something, but what is an exercise left to the reader.
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Post by: Frazzled
Polonius wrote:
Mohoc is actually right. While Battle Foam threatened legal action, BoK actually filed the complaint.
Good move - called the other guyy's bluff. he's also trying to pull JD to California.
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Post by: Breotan
Polonius wrote:Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
Sabol bags are garbage but the foam is pretty good. Cheaper than Romeo's, too, iirc.
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Post by: RiTides
KR foam is quite nice, too, and has custom-cut foam for Dropzone Commander. There are alternatives out there and a company the size of Battlefoam in a niche hobby like this honestly shouldn't be trying to throw their weight around so much.
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Post by: Frazzled
 Lorek wrote:If nothing else, both Blood of Kittens and Battlefoam have additional exposure. There's no such thing as bad publicity (or however that saying goes). Maybe it's a conspiracy.
Michael Jackson would disagree with you on that.
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Post by: Redbeard
Polonius wrote:
Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.
In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?
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Post by: Necros
I just found out that I have no idea what a "tort" is .. it sounds like something I'd eat for breakfast, or desert. Now I'm hungry.
Wish folks didn't have to throw lawyers around so much in the gaming world. Couldn't they just sit down and chat over a beer or 12 at the next con?
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Post by: Alfndrate
 Necros wrote:I just found out that I have no idea what a "tort" is .. it sounds like something I'd eat for breakfast, or desert. Now I'm hungry.
Wish folks didn't have to throw lawyers around so much in the gaming world. Couldn't they just sit down and chat over a beer or 12 at the next con?
torte is the cake like breakfast thing you're thinking of
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Post by: pities2004
Redbeard wrote:Polonius wrote:
Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.
In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?
Because battlefoam did it first AM I RIGHT????
Seriously though I have used Sabol for over 5 years with no issues, still have my first case.
Cheaper product for the same job.
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Post by: Polonius
Redbeard wrote:[
I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.
In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?
How many models you can fit in a tray. Larger trays help, but I started buying Battlefoam for my Sabol bags. I was able to fit far more IG in each tray, plus trays for large kits was feasible.
I should amend that Sabol trays do their job of protecting just fine, and slightly better if you hot glue the pick and pluck properly. But BF is much more space effecient, and with specifically cut trays such as the WArmachine Heavy Jack trays, you have very snug fits for all of your big peices.
9883
Post by: Cyporiean
I've been using custom cut Outrider Hobbies trays in Portable Warfare bags for years now without issue, transporting models across the country by car and plane.
Custom/circle cut foam is definitely the way to go.
28365
Post by: OverwatchCNC
Redbeard wrote:Polonius wrote:
Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.
In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?
The bags are no where near as sturdy and neither is the foam. The foam doesn't become as worn and the bags last a lot longer as well. Of course anyones mileage may vary with any product and as always there will be differences of opinion. The fact is the foam and bags are a higher quality. Now, is it worth twice the price? Probably not, am I willing to pay it? Sometimes. If given a choice between both products, at a similar price, and taking personalities out of it I bet you would choose Battlefoam over Sabol. Then again the prices aren't near the same but the one product is clearly superior in design.
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Post by: robertsjf
weeble1000 wrote:Yea, but it is a DJ action. Battlefoam threatened legal action, and Mr. Hayden filed for declaratory judgment, which I suspect will be granted. It is a put-up-or-shut-up sort of thing. You threaten to sue me, I go to the court and say that you have no basis to file a lawsuit against me. If the Court finds that you don't, you can't follow through on your threat.
It may be technically true that Mr. Hayden filed the complaint, but it is an entirely appropriate response to Battlefoam's Cease and Desist letter, which threatened legal action. You can't threaten a lawsuit without having a legitimate basis to do so. That's why sending out a bunch of C&D letters is not always a good idea...
weeble1000, why do I feel like we dakkanaughts owe you a retainer? Where should I send my portion?
3488
Post by: jah-joshua
i've travelled the world for the last ten years with my Sabol Army Transport...
it's still in perfect condition, and my minis are always safe...
Battlefoam seems like a much slicker product, to be sure...
no need to replace something that works just fine, though...
cheers
jah
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.
Time to go with Sabol instead.
The Black Label series of cases from Battlefoam are just Hardigg cases with BF stamped on them.
Find yourself a Hardigg case on the cheap from ebay or elsewhere and just get yourself some custom foam trays.
Compare:
BF
Black Label J-8 Case w/Trays @ 249
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.5W x 13L x 7H" (470W x 330L x 178H mm)
Ebay
Hardigg IM2450 case @ 135
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.00" x 13.00" x 8.40" (45.7 x 33 x 21.3 cm)
Roughly the same case, 100+ cheaper.
465
Post by: Redbeard
OverwatchCNC wrote:
The bags are no where near as sturdy and neither is the foam. The foam doesn't become as worn and the bags last a lot longer as well. Of course anyones mileage may vary with any product and as always there will be differences of opinion. The fact is the foam and bags are a higher quality. Now, is it worth twice the price? Probably not, am I willing to pay it? Sometimes. If given a choice between both products, at a similar price, and taking personalities out of it I bet you would choose Battlefoam over Sabol. Then again the prices aren't near the same but the one product is clearly superior in design.
I've been using Sabol cases since 2004. I haven't had one case or one piece of foam wear out on me. They may not feel as tough, but they do the job they're designed for, at a fraction the price. And, again, I travel with a case strapped to a motorcycle. For those of you unfamiliar, that means when I turn a corner, my case tips up to 30 degrees, unlike in a car where you're pretty much a stable platform. Sure, IF the price points were similar, I don't dislike the battlefoam product. But when comparing what you get for what you pay, Sabol is the superior product line. Cost IS a factor, especially when you have as many really large armies as I do. (I was at one of the GTs where Romeo had his personal foam cases, and was one of the people who encouraged him to try selling them. I think they're cool. But when I saw what he was charging, I simply couldn't make the switch.)
Polonius wrote:
How many models you can fit in a tray. Larger trays help, but I started buying Battlefoam for my Sabol bags. I was able to fit far more IG in each tray, plus trays for large kits was feasible.
Again, this depends on what kind of models you're talking about. I fit 67 ork boyz per 2.5" piece of sabol foam on the high side, but they're just ork boyz, so you know...
... But BF is much more space effecient, and with specifically cut trays such as the WArmachine Heavy Jack trays, you have very snug fits for all of your big peices.
Well, I guess if you never convert things to fit outside those initial dimensions. One of the problems I need to solve is that no army is ever really finished, so then I need to add another space for something new. Yeah, those laser-cut trays are awful space efficient if you're going for a fixed-size army and will never need to add another thing and can plan out all the space up front. But they're not flexible. If your model doesn't fit that pre-cut space just right, you need to take a knife to it, and that's not really optimal for something that costs so much, is it.
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Post by: Necros
BF makes a good product, but I invested in Sabol yarens ago and I'm still using em to this day. My original Sabol bag is kinda worn, but my motorpool and division are in great shape. I actually used my division bag as my suitcase when I went to GenCon That makes me a nerd, right?
I have a few Sabol sized BF trays though.
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Post by: Pacific
Kanluwen wrote: Killionaire wrote:Are we surprised really?
Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.
And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!
Look. I dislike Romeo's behavior as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend that most of the "criticism" was valid.
Statements which could be summed up as "Romeo's a moron/doesn't know what he's talking about/etc, why don't Tom and Kip just shut him up so that they can actually be interesting?" aren't what I would deem to be "criticism".
It's being a jerk to someone and expecting them to just take it on the chin, because hey "criticism".
I have to be honest.. in amongst all of the comments I have read, yours is pretty much the only one that has taken this viewpoint.
You know Kan.. you don't always have to be contrary, sometimes it's OK to go with the majority consensus on something when recognising what is or isn't acceptable?
Romeo saying that stuff (other than the obvious entertainment factor it provided) simply wasn't acceptable, in the context of what were after-all just some (fairly mild, from what I remember) comments on a forum - and he deserves to lose customers over it.
35671
Post by: weeble1000
robertsjf wrote:weeble1000 wrote:Yea, but it is a DJ action. Battlefoam threatened legal action, and Mr. Hayden filed for declaratory judgment, which I suspect will be granted. It is a put-up-or-shut-up sort of thing. You threaten to sue me, I go to the court and say that you have no basis to file a lawsuit against me. If the Court finds that you don't, you can't follow through on your threat.
It may be technically true that Mr. Hayden filed the complaint, but it is an entirely appropriate response to Battlefoam's Cease and Desist letter, which threatened legal action. You can't threaten a lawsuit without having a legitimate basis to do so. That's why sending out a bunch of C&D letters is not always a good idea...
weeble1000, why do I feel like we dakkanaughts owe you a retainer? Where should I send my portion?
Sean_Obrien, Czakk, Polonius, and Janthkin deserve it more than I do, just off the top of my head. Sean in particular does a lot of rounding up of information in addition to stating his views. That takes a lot of effort.
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Post by: MickeyP2K
I did see the article in question and it was just the usual vitriol.
I have met Romeo on numerous occasions on his travels to the UK and he is genuinely a great gamer, hobbiest and businessman. I consider him a mate so I'm likely to stick up for him but to be frank whether you like his product (BattleFoam is the best product on the market for the record and if you have custom models then just get custom foam) or not he's a nice guy and all I would say is unless you have met him and had a beer with him don't bother trying to assassinate his character.
I think losing some hate from the gaming fraternity can only be a good thing. Good bye Blood of Kittens I wonder if you will be missed... Nah.
68764
Post by: Killionaire
..Hi Romeo?
I don't really think the character needs to be assassinated. One's own words and actions tends to do it without outside help.
This is sort of a trend, which is why I'm cynically looking at any 'new registry' that solely exists to bump up stuff related to battlefoam.
I mean. It's what happened on the Infinity Thread, where he (very obviously) created a new account to post (and was caught at it), as well as several cases on Dakka, when trying to plug Wild West Exodus.
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Post by: doc1234
Hi Romeo being my first thought too. Random new account popping up saying "Ok I just happen to know him, and Romeo is a cool guy. Like seriously hes smart handsome and the best person ever and and " It's like something out of a bad cartoon.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Pacific wrote: Kanluwen wrote: Killionaire wrote:Are we surprised really?
Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.
And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!
Look. I dislike Romeo's behavior as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend that most of the "criticism" was valid.
Statements which could be summed up as "Romeo's a moron/doesn't know what he's talking about/etc, why don't Tom and Kip just shut him up so that they can actually be interesting?" aren't what I would deem to be "criticism".
It's being a jerk to someone and expecting them to just take it on the chin, because hey "criticism".
I have to be honest.. in amongst all of the comments I have read, yours is pretty much the only one that has taken this viewpoint.
You know Kan.. you don't always have to be contrary, sometimes it's OK to go with the majority consensus on something when recognising what is or isn't acceptable?
Romeo saying that stuff (other than the obvious entertainment factor it provided) simply wasn't acceptable, in the context of what were after-all just some (fairly mild, from what I remember) comments on a forum - and he deserves to lose customers over it.
They were not "fairly mild" comments. I read the thread before it got deleted by the forum moderation team over at the Official Infinity Forums.
And really. Please read what I am posting here. I'm not defending Romeo, but he was not really the only one involved in that whole debacle.
I'm gonna bow out of this thread I think. I don't want to drag it off-topic any more than I already did.
25300
Post by: Absolutionis
Last time it was the Outlaw Kickstarter sockpuppets, and now they're again emerging from the metaphorical woodwork. Seriously, where does Romeo get these guys?
MickeyP2K wrote:I did see the article in question and it was just the usual vitriol.
I have met Romeo on numerous occasions on his travels to the UK and he is genuinely a great gamer, hobbiest and businessman. I consider him a mate so I'm likely to stick up for him but to be frank whether you like his product (BattleFoam is the best product on the market for the record and if you have custom models then just get custom foam) or not he's a nice guy and all I would say is unless you have met him and had a beer with him don't bother trying to assassinate his character.
I think losing some hate from the gaming fraternity can only be a good thing. Good bye Blood of Kittens I wonder if you will be missed... Nah.
11
Post by: ph34r
Killionaire wrote:Are we surprised really?
Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.
And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!
Wow, this is incredibly ridiculous. 100% unprofessional. I don't care if the Infinity posters were making gak up to slander Battlefoam, such a threat from anyone, let alone a company owner, is never acceptable. I personally had considered battle foaming out all of my miniatures for the pure convenience factor once I had more time for tournaments and traveling, but I would feel morally corrupt if I supported someone that acts as Romeo does. I am a 21st century person with access to the internet and a commercial shop that offers laser cutting service, I will take the 3 hours and save myself 100s of dollars and just custom cut foam myself. I will certainly not be buying Battlefoam.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
25300
Post by: Absolutionis
 H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
There's no suit, yet.
Battlefoam issued a takedown notice to BoK for slander threatening legal action.
BoK refused to back down and decided to assemble a lawyer to defend themselves. They're calling the challenge and seeing if Battlefoam will follow through with their threat.
36184
Post by: Alfndrate
Killionaire wrote:..Hi Romeo?
I don't really think the character needs to be assassinated. One's own words and actions tends to do it without outside help.
This is sort of a trend, which is why I'm cynically looking at any 'new registry' that solely exists to bump up stuff related to battlefoam.
I mean. It's what happened on the Infinity Thread, where he (very obviously) created a new account to post (and was caught at it), as well as several cases on Dakka, when trying to plug Wild West Exodus.
doc1234 wrote:Hi Romeo being my first thought too. Random new account popping up saying "Ok I just happen to know him, and Romeo is a cool guy. Like seriously hes smart handsome and the best person ever and and " It's like something out of a bad cartoon.
To be fair, TasteyTaste himself has said that Romeo the gamer is a great guy to hangout and drink with... it's Romeo the Businessman he finds issue with. Though granted he wrote those words like 3 years ago, so things may have changed
61618
Post by: Desubot
H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
Same here but as it stands it appears to be a suit over the projectile fecal matter being thrown around by bok (legitimate or not)
23071
Post by: MandalorynOranj
Wait really? You're putting a piece of work for the world to see and getting upset when people hate on it? Dealing with criticism, warranted or not, is part of the game. If you can't deal with it, stay away from the comments or the reviews. It's something every writer, blogger, podcaster, etc. has to deal with, and being mature about handling negative feedback is huge. This is entirely ridiculous, can't believe anyone would take something said online this far.
56050
Post by: doc1234
Alfndrate wrote:Killionaire wrote:..Hi Romeo?
I don't really think the character needs to be assassinated. One's own words and actions tends to do it without outside help.
This is sort of a trend, which is why I'm cynically looking at any 'new registry' that solely exists to bump up stuff related to battlefoam.
I mean. It's what happened on the Infinity Thread, where he (very obviously) created a new account to post (and was caught at it), as well as several cases on Dakka, when trying to plug Wild West Exodus.
doc1234 wrote:Hi Romeo being my first thought too. Random new account popping up saying "Ok I just happen to know him, and Romeo is a cool guy. Like seriously hes smart handsome and the best person ever and and " It's like something out of a bad cartoon.
To be fair, TasteyTaste himself has said that Romeo the gamer is a great guy to hangout and drink with... it's Romeo the Businessman he finds issue with. Though granted he wrote those words like 3 years ago, so things may have changed
Oh no i'm sure he could well be in his personal life. Even if he DOES have a few anger issues doesn't make him a bad person. It was more internet toughguy act/ This commenter popping up randomly with 0 previous posts just to praise Romeo that made me chuckle.
21358
Post by: Dysartes
H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
Quick summation, from what I can tell...
Blood of Kittens (BoK) posted an article/editorial about what they viewed as dodgy Battlefoam ( BF) business practises.
BF noticed said article, and got bent out of shape about it, to the degree of paying a lawyer to send a C&D letter to the guy behind BoK. Said letter indicated that unless certain actions were taken within 7 days of the date the letter was written - including BoK sending a cheque for $2,500 of legal fees to BF's lawyer - BF would sue for defamation of character.
BoK, understandably, were somewhat taken aback by this, but contacted one of the interweb free speech groups and got pro bono representation.
BoK have since filed in their state's court to get a judgement to say that what they posted wasn't defamatory, and possibly to get monies from BF for the shenanigans. In the meantime, they have taken down the offending post until it gets ruled on.
*EDIT* - Sheesh, that was a lot of ninja-ing while I was typing. Maybe my summation, it was not so quick...
1406
Post by: Janthkin
Thread terminated.
Folks, NOTHING is gained by dragging conversations off-topic to discuss how your opinions of one party or another were formed by rumors you read on the Internet this one time. If we're going to discuss this topic (and we're welcome to do so), it's going to be under the same constraints as the long-running ChapterHouse thread - discussion is limited to the specifics of pending litigation, and check your emotional baggage at the door.
It'd be good to start with a factual subject line, too. As was noted, this is a declaratory judgment action - BoK filed suit.
22687
Post by: MajorTom11
Ok, now that there has been a bit of time to cool off, I am going to move this thread to discussions as it is still a noteworthy topic in the industry.
That being said, exactly as Janthkin says above.
If we're going to discuss this topic, it's going to be under the same constraints as the long-running ChapterHouse thread - Discussion is limited to the specifics of pending litigation, and check your emotional baggage at the door. Slinging mud at specific individuals based on nothing but heresay will result in action
Remember the rules and stick to them people.
19069
Post by: evancich
I have a ton of Battlefoam foam & bags.
I was a supporter of Romeo buying (or whatever) 40k Radio, until they did the show about the GW price hike a few years ago. Clearly, Romeo wanted to be the "official" bag / foam supplier to GW and his take on why the Australian prices were out of whack were biased by his desire to secure GW's business.
You almost did it right, but I am editing out a single sentence that made a definitive statement on character as if it was fact. Do not attack the person. You can certainly offer your views on their opinions, but you can't be outright rude. MT11
Which brings us to this and some questions:
1) Why the lag in sending the C&D to BoK?
2) Doesn't Romeo need to show damages caused by BoK's posting?
3) If BoK gets the ruling they want, does that mean this matter is closed or does Romeo have other options?
61721
Post by: czakk
The guy to get covering this would be Ken over at http://www.popehat.com/. He's a free speech attorney and blogger and a certified geek, so it might be interesting enough for him to look into.
6292
Post by: Valhallan42nd
I don't think Romeo has a leg to stand on, and he's picked a fight that's uphill at best.
61721
Post by: czakk
Ah.
Just finished reading through the statement of claim.
Battlefoam is in for a rough rough ride. Mark J Randazza is a certified badass (well, legally speaking).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
evancich wrote:
3) If BoK gets the ruling they want, does that mean this matter is closed or does Romeo have other options?
The matter is effectively closed. Romeo could appeal to a higher court of course.
If you send a threatening cease and desist letter to someone they typically have the option to go to their local courthouse and say "Hey, this guy is threatening to sue me. I'm tired of his posturing, let's settle this here and now." There wouldn't be much point to the filing if it didn't have some finality.
Also, in the statement of claim, BoK asserts that Battlefoam / Romeo are limited public figures (mini celebrities / well known folks). If successful in this characterization this will up the burden of proof on Battlefoam:
www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice-and-negligence
Celebrities, politicians, high-ranking or powerful government officials, and others with power in society are generally considered public figures/officials and are required to prove actual malice. Unlike these well-known and powerful individuals, your shy neighbor is likely to be a private figure who is only required to prove negligence if you publish something defamatory about her. Determining who is a public or private figure is not always easy. In some instances, the categories may overlap. For example, a blogger who is a well-known authority on clinical research involving autism may be considered a public figure for purposes of controversies involving autism, but not for other purposes.
33774
Post by: tgf
Battlefoam has a pretty long history of doing this, its not just BoK, they hit Outrider, Sabol, I remember reading a case where they went after people with a sister company Diablo Bats.
Sabol and KnR have great products, there is no reason to patron a patent troll. Whether or not you want to buy Battlefoam or not has no bearing on the legal merits of this case. Maybe you missed my warning earlier.
STAY ON TOPIC PEOPLE. THE TOPIC IS THE LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCES BETWEEN BATTLEFOAM AND BLOOD OF KITTENS.
NOT WHOSE FOAM YOU LIKE
NOT PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ROMEO FILIP. RULE #1 STILL APPLIES.
IF YOU GUYS CAN'T STAY ON TOPIC THIS THREAD WILL BE CLOSED, WHICH WILL BE A SHAME.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
warning issued, I'm not messing around man. MT11
4727
Post by: Makaleth
As far as I can tell, this is all pretty standard stuff... it's just that we are reading about it on a blog in the gaming industry.
I don't think this is anything too odd.
61721
Post by: czakk
A little bit about the lawyer on the other side:
http://maypotenza.com/News/NewsDetail.aspx?categoryId=0&a=6708
Mr. Sreecharana is what we in Canada would call a 1 year call – an extremely junior lawyer who would only be assigned basic of tasks under close supervision. Not knocking him, and perhaps things are different in Arizona, but it up here it would be a sign that the law firm either:
a) didn’t expect any resistance from BoK,
and / or
b) were being extremely cost conscious on behalf of their client.
All that said, the scholarship (Kennedy Scholar) he is listed as having is (I believe) a full 3 year scholarship worth about $150k given to the top student(s) at his law school (which admitting is a second law tier school). So he's probably one of the best juniors in Arizona.
Perhaps they'll hand this off to another more senior lawyer if it goes to trial.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
But... but what?
Don't leave us hanging! Finish your sentences! Otherwise you
61721
Post by: czakk
H.B.M.C. wrote:But... but what?
Don't leave us hanging! Finish your sentences! Otherwise you
Heh sorry. I finished marking exams and I've been drinking some celebratory beers.
He could have just been hired to draft the demand letter, they could have a more heavyweight lawyer to do the actual trial. Normally up here you would have the junior draft the letter and the senior sign it (cause it's scarier).
He could also have brought in Battlefoam as a new client and have carriage of the case all to himself. In a small firm you start doing real work on your own faster than in a big one.
I'll go check recap and see who battlefoam hired in the past as lawyers.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
czakk wrote:A little bit about the lawyer on the other side:
http://maypotenza.com/News/NewsDetail.aspx?categoryId=0&a=6708
Mr. Sreecharana is what we in Canada would call a 1 year call – an extremely junior lawyer who would only be assigned basic of tasks under close supervision. Not knocking him, and perhaps things are different in Arizona, but it up here it would be a sign that the law firm either:
a) didn’t expect any resistance from BoK,
and / or
b) were being extremely cost conscious on behalf of their client.
It's a C&D letter; that's exactly the sort of work you hand to a junior associate. I wouldn't read too much into that part.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
Yep, no suit from either side yet, just BF sending a C&D and BoK going to a lawyer to get a DJ.
Essentially, Blood of Kittens telling Battlefoam to put up or shut up.
I do not see Romeo having much of a chance of winning this. The only thing that I can think of... maybe he saw other, larger companies *Cough* GW *Cough, Cough* doing similar things and thought that if it worked for them it could work for him as well?
Given GW's own legal problems right now... it does seem ill advised. And given that BF itself is nowhere near the size of GW... any legal duel is going to hurt them enough that it just does not seem worthwhile.
Hopefully Romeo's own lawyer will advise backing away.... This is not a situation where taking things over the top and out of the trenches is going to win him any ground.
The Auld Grump
61721
Post by: czakk
Battlefoam's previous lawyer (in the outrider hobbies case http://archive.recapthelaw.org/nhd/35017/ ) is now a Patent Judge:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-daniels/7/108/b28
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Janthkin wrote:It's a C&D letter; that's exactly the sort of work you hand to a junior associate. I wouldn't read too much into that part.
Yup yup. Just up here we'd have the junior draft it and someone more senior sign it if it was a serious matter. The senior is going to have to review it before it goes out anyways*, might as well have him/her sign it.
*So that you don't end up getting your client dragged into a different jurisdiction for instance.
It might be a firm culture thing up here though. We are staid and stuffy compared to american lawyers.
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Post by: paulson games
There's several reasons I've never bought BF product. (and never will)
1: I see more class in an episode of Jersey Shore than I do in Romeo's online antics. Of course all that matters is what somebody is like in face time right? Having spoken with him in person at conventions I can attest that he in fact has all the alluring charm of a snake oil salesman.
2: It's friggin expensive. Something is wrong when you can buy an already overpriced $100 GW army case and feel like you're getting it for a song compared to BF pricing.
3: Rage nutting. Its unprofessional and while Romeo later backtracks and apologizes for flying off the handle it shouldn't be occuring in the first place; especially when your name is driving your business. Nobody likes the internet tough guy, it puts a very poor image on your business and will cost sales.
The above is of course all personal opinion. I feel sorry for those who can't seem to grasp the concept that somebody out on the internet may dislike what you have to say. Heaven forbid.
I will now begin my slow clap for BoK, you certainly have my support.
.
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Post by: BrookM
If this reaches court, would this be a big drawn out case costing thousands of Dollars, or a quick open and shut curbstomp of justice?
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Post by: notprop
Ah man Foam Wars is back - Love it!
Foam Wars V: this time it's legal!
I don't read BoK or have much need for Battle Foam products (KR rules btw) and while Romeo's rep (good and bad) is well known I am having difficulty on who to bet on. A viewing of the article in question would help.
Am a looking a getting some BF Zombiecide trays; I dnot think anything here will make a difference in that unless KR decide to make a Zombiecide tray (can you say Foam Wars VI!).
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Post by: Alfndrate
BrookM wrote:If this reaches court, would this be a big drawn out case costing thousands of Dollars, or a quick open and shut curbstomp of justice?
I wish curbstompings were a legal punishment in our country 
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Post redacted. Posting useful information is fine; mixing it with rude statements about other users, even in illustrative form, is not. --Janthkin
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Post by: Polonius
Standard disclaimer: While I am technically a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer. I'm not anybody's lawyer, but I'm certainly not yours. My thoughts here are not legal advice. Seek counsel if you have a specific question.
BrookM wrote:If this reaches court, would this be a big drawn out case costing thousands of Dollars, or a quick open and shut curbstomp of justice?
Depends on what you mean by "reaches court." It's already in court, BoK filed a complaint.
At this point, the length/expense is up to BF. If they respond, and say they can prove their case, then it becomes a pretty standard defamation suit. If the judge rules that Romeo is a limited public figure, than BoK will probably win on summary judgement, as having nearly any supprot for a statement against a public figure is enough to avoid defamation.
If the judge rules that Romeo is not a public figure (and I can't even begin to guess on that factor), then Romeo needs to prove that BoK said some thing false that hurt his reputation. Since BoKs statements were about his business, he doesn't need to show actual damages (which are a list of how he's actually hurt), but can instead ask for damages perscribed by law.
As for an actual trial, that likely wouldn't take long. But the lead up can be lenghty and costly. BoK will no doubt present the sworn affadavits, which means BF will want to depose them all.
If you're reading at home, and thinking that BF needs a lot of things to break their way to win, you are correc.t Defamation is a pretty tough tort to win on in the US.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
czakk wrote:
Also, in the statement of claim, BoK asserts that Battlefoam / Romeo are limited public figures (mini celebrities / well known folks). If successful in this characterization this will up the burden of proof on Battlefoam:
www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice-and-negligence
Celebrities, politicians, high-ranking or powerful government officials, and others with power in society are generally considered public figures/officials and are required to prove actual malice. Unlike these well-known and powerful individuals, your shy neighbor is likely to be a private figure who is only required to prove negligence if you publish something defamatory about her. Determining who is a public or private figure is not always easy. In some instances, the categories may overlap. For example, a blogger who is a well-known authority on clinical research involving autism may be considered a public figure for purposes of controversies involving autism, but not for other purposes.
Huh, I'd forgotten that one of the "prongs" for the limited public figure test is "•The depth of the person's participation in the controversy. " Meaning, a person that is flinging mud of his own can't complain as much when some gets on him.
By all accounts, Romeo has not remained above the fray. He seems to participate, willingly, in pretty heated debate. That could show that he's not just helpless victim of slander, but a legitimate figure of discussion.
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Post by: Lansirill
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I do not see Romeo having much of a chance of winning this. The only thing that I can think of... maybe he saw other, larger companies *Cough* GW *Cough, Cough* doing similar things and thought that if it worked for them it could work for him as well?
Given GW's own legal problems right now... it does seem ill advised. And given that BF itself is nowhere near the size of GW... any legal duel is going to hurt them enough that it just does not seem worthwhile.
This doesn't seem to really be all that similar to what's going on with GW right now (at least the items which I'm aware of, faeit and CHS.) Both of those are getting into trademark and copyright issues, which I don't think is the case (this time) with Battlefoam. The BoK/ BF thing is just a good old fashioned 'Oh god they said something mean on the internet!' situation.
Other than both being game companies that are getting into a legal situation and the internet somehow being involved, there doesn't seem to be much more similarity. I suppose in both cases, the game company ( BF/ GW) are making actions which are ill-founded and quite possibly not in their best interests. *Both* cases make me less willing to give the company money.
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Post by: tgf
 Breotan wrote: Polonius wrote:Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
Sabol bags are garbage but the foam is pretty good. Cheaper than Romeo's, too, iirc.
Hey mod's why is it only the people that like Sabol got the red text? Is Battlefoam a sponsor or honest mistake?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
It seems to me that the fact that we are four pages into a thread about the case would indicate that Romeo Filip is a public figure within the little world of tabletop wargaming, which is his area of business.
If he were not, no-one would be interested in discussing things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: tgf wrote: Breotan wrote: Polonius wrote:Don't do it.
Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.
Sabol bags are garbage but the foam is pretty good. Cheaper than Romeo's, too, iirc.
Hey mod's why is it only the people that like Sabol got the red text? Is Battlefoam a sponsor or honest mistake?
I could make a joke and say that no-one likes Battlefoam.
However the fact is that the thread is about Battlefoam versus Blood of Kittens, so that discussion of Sabol is off topic.
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Post by: Polonius
 Kilkrazy wrote:It seems to me that the fact that we are four pages into a thread about the case would indicate that Romeo Filip is a public figure within the little world of tabletop wargaming, which is his area of business. If he were not, no-one would be interested in discussing things.
The public's interest in a person isn't the test though. It's the validity of the public's interest. To over simplify: gossip is not protected, but public debate is. An FLGS owner in Des Moines would not be a public figure, even if he did all kinds of outrageous things. He might qualify as a limited public figure withint he local business community, but not nationally. What makes Romeo's status as a public figure more likely is his ubiquityy: he goes to all the cons, makes his own videos, runs a podcast, engages people online, and in general is not only the owner of a national (if niche) business, but is an active participant in community discussion. The courts generally hold that a person that eagerly seeks the spotlight has to take the good with the bad. To draw contrast: the guy that owns Sabol is not a public figure. He doesn't do a lot of promotion, he's not a loud figure, and while I've met the man a couple of times I can't even remember his name. He's a private figure.
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Post by: CaulynDarr
czakk wrote:
The guy to get covering this would be Ken over at http://www.popehat.com/. He's a free speech attorney and blogger and a certified geek, so it might be interesting enough for him to look into.
One of the attorney's listed in Tasty's filling is Marc Randazza, who's name I've seen pop up on Popehat a few times. I think he has a bit of a name in 1st Amendment cases and Anti-SLAPP suits. So getting Ken's help would just lead to getting somebody like Randazza to take the case.
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Post by: czakk
I meant cover in the blogger sense - gather the various filings, comment on their merits, etc... This is in state court not federal which means we need someone local in order to get court documents. Can't just fire up PACER.
The fact that Randazza is involved does increase the chances he'll have a post or two.
Speaking of anti-SLAPP - does filing for a declaratory judgement preclude the use of the anti-SLAPP statute?
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Polonius wrote: he goes to all the cons, makes his own videos, runs a podcast, engages people online, and in general is not only the owner of a national (if niche) business, but is an active participant in community discussion. The courts generally hold that a person that eagerly seeks the spotlight has to take the good with the bad.
A minor point of order, BF is an international business, as he does have warehouses outside the states, and both ships and distributes internationally. Which, of course, only reinforces your statement.
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Post by: Inquisitor_Malice
Yeah - and of course the stickers caused issues that AdeptiCon and Westin staff had to deal with since they were placed on other vendor booths and throughout different areas in the hotel. Westin staff were not happy with this and neither were some of the other vendors that we work with.
 So a message to the person / people who did this. Please find a different method of protest. Because while you may have achieved some personal satisfaction, all you did was cause problems for an overworked volunteer AdeptiCon staff and an hotel that tries to bring you a wonderful atmosphere to meet up with other enthusiasts.
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Post by: Marcus Scipio
 Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
Yeah - and of course the stickers caused issues that AdeptiCon and Westin staff had to deal with since they were placed on other vendor booths and throughout different areas in the hotel. Westin staff were not happy with this and neither were some of the other vendors that we work with.
So a message to the person / people who did this. Please find a different method of protest. Because while you may have achieved some personal satisfaction, all you did was cause problems for an overworked volunteer AdeptiCon staff and an hotel that tries to bring you a wonderful atmosphere to meet up with other enthusiasts.
As someone who did not attend Adepticon I have not seen the stickers and would be interested to know what they said/displayed. If you don't want to give them anymore publicity could you at least PM me?
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Post by: notprop
Okay I'll ask - stickers?
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Post by: Alfndrate
Marcus Scipio wrote: Inquisitor_Malice wrote: Yeah - and of course the stickers caused issues that AdeptiCon and Westin staff had to deal with since they were placed on other vendor booths and throughout different areas in the hotel. Westin staff were not happy with this and neither were some of the other vendors that we work with. So a message to the person / people who did this. Please find a different method of protest. Because while you may have achieved some personal satisfaction, all you did was cause problems for an overworked volunteer AdeptiCon staff and an hotel that tries to bring you a wonderful atmosphere to meet up with other enthusiasts.
As someone who did not attend Adepticon I have not seen the stickers and would be interested to know what they said/displayed. If you don't want to give them anymore publicity could you at least PM me?
It was a simple white sticker that said, "Romeo is a Douche". Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone was placing stickers around the convention that said what I said in the above part of my post
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Post by: notprop
It's all about timing my man.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
I'm sorry I didn't see that.
I think I'll have to get that engraved in my next BF tray I order.
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Post by: Alfndrate
The first time I saw them it was in a picture, and from what I heard, it was humorous, but as they started to appear in more and more places, it did become a little annoying knowing the hotel staff, which was very accomodating to the convention goers, had to keep cleaning up the stickers... If they were placed on fliers, paper, and basically something that would be thrown away at the end of the convention, it wouldn't be as big of a dick move.
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Post by: Aldonis
So while a bit of drama in the GW world has been lacking of late - this one is kind of sad. We are guys playing a hobby. We have Battlefoam that makes a good product for our hobby. Either buy it and support them - or if you don't like their business practices - buy from someone else.
While full of humor for me - a lawsuit over a post on a blog in our hobby is a sad state of affairs. It's really bad that we've had our hobby turn from guys getting together and having fun at tournaments - into lawsuits, flame wars, etc. Seems to have started about the time that the "competitive" bent to 40K started - but that's my opinion. In a niche hobby we should encourage each other vs. tear it down. The fact we have a company that even makes products like Battlefoam is really cool.
Didn't see the stickers at Adepticon personally - but heard about them from a few of the Organizers I know. Pretty juvenile thing to do. Also heard it really made the Westin staff upset. If you don't like a guy's way he does business - don't buy from him. If asked your opinion for a review - state it but don't make it personal.
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Post by: Alfndrate
So, in interest of keeping this bad boy on topic,
has anyone actually managed to get the text of that article?
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Post by: Lansirill
 Aldonis wrote:So while a bit of drama in the GW world has been lacking of late - this one is kind of sad. We are guys playing a hobby. We have Battlefoam that makes a good product for our hobby. Either buy it and support them - or if you don't like their business practices - buy from someone else.
While full of humor for me - a lawsuit over a post on a blog in our hobby is a sad state of affairs. It's really bad that we've had our hobby turn from guys getting together and having fun at tournaments - into lawsuits, flame wars, etc. Seems to have started about the time that the "competitive" bent to 40K started - but that's my opinion. In a niche hobby we should encourage each other vs. tear it down. The fact we have a company that even makes products like Battlefoam is really cool.
Didn't see the stickers at Adepticon personally - but heard about them from a few of the Organizers I know. Pretty juvenile thing to do. Also heard it really made the Westin staff upset. If you don't like a guy's way he does business - don't buy from him. If asked your opinion for a review - state it but don't make it personal.
If you don't like how someone does business, certainly, don't buy from him. Also, feel free to offer your opinion even if you aren't asked. If your dislike of the way a person does business is personal (I don't buy Coke products anymore because the CEO kicked my mother and gave my dog cancer when I told him I enjoy Pepsi as well.) then, well, you might just have to call a spade a spade. If you don't let people know about this unsavory business practice, then they may end up buying a product which they will later regret.
Now, yes, plastering stickers all over the place where people need to scrape them off isn't exactly the height of good manners. A 'RiaD' t-shirt, however, could be hilarious.
Christ almighty riding shotgun in a Pinto, there's nothing wrong with sharing an opinion.
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Post by: Shepherd23
I really do hope that this case gets tossed. Random internet banter about a guy who seems to have never left the military and treats everyone who disagrees with him as an enemy that must be destroyed is just laughable. He doesn't need lawsuits, he needs therapy and anger management. He seems like a very high energy type that has way to many redbulls in the morning with his coffee. He invites conflict like it is a long lost relative.
I can only hope that with this lawsuit, he doesn't try any of the silly antics that he attempted during his failed Foamwars lawsuit. If any of that info is available to the judge, Romeo will have a very uphill battle just trying to prove that the case is legit.
At least it provides entertaining reading material to the rest of us. Romeo has always been consistent with that regard.
Regarding the stickers at Adepticon...I giggled often, but sticking them to the hotel itself was rather uncool. I agree 100% with the sticker content, though, so maybe BoK could make a shirt and sell it to help defer their legal expenses. Future Cons would get interesting indeed as we watched the police come and go.
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Post by: warboss
I have no problem with people expressing their opinion by placing the stickers on their own booths, items, and trapper keepers (hey, it reminds me of a late 80's/early 90's junior high protest!) but the line should be drawn at doing so at the time and expense of others. Feel free to sticker up all of your own stuff and then goo-gone clean it off in your free time.... don't force others to do the latter just so you can express your opinion louder.
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Post by: Necros
Yeah, that sounds pretty crappy.. weather you like the guy or not, putting stickers about it all over walls of someone's business and stuff is pretty juvenile, heck it almost sounds like vandalism in a way. Hopefully the hotel didn't charge the adepticon folks for the cleanup.
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Post by: Shepherd23
Necros wrote:Yeah, that sounds pretty crappy.. weather you like the guy or not, putting stickers about it all over walls of someone's business and stuff is pretty juvenile, heck it almost sounds like vandalism in a way. Hopefully the hotel didn't charge the adepticon folks for the cleanup.
By its definition, The stickers were a form of vandalism. Defacement of property is what happened, and that is the basic definition of vandalism. Now, back to the pointless litigation!
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Post by: BrookM
Polonius wrote:What makes Romeo's status as a public figure more likely is his ubiquityy: he goes to all the cons, makes his own videos, runs a podcast, engages people online, and in general is not only the owner of a national (if niche) business, but is an active participant in community discussion. The courts generally hold that a person that eagerly seeks the spotlight has to take the good with the bad./quote] He's also a big name in the baseball bat industry, or did that come to an end?
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Post by: Mr. Burning
Shepherd23 wrote: Necros wrote:Yeah, that sounds pretty crappy.. weather you like the guy or not, putting stickers about it all over walls of someone's business and stuff is pretty juvenile, heck it almost sounds like vandalism in a way. Hopefully the hotel didn't charge the adepticon folks for the cleanup.
By its definition, The stickers were a form of vandalism. Defacement of property is what happened, and that is the basic definition of vandalism. Now, back to the pointless litigation!
It isnt pointless litigation.
BoK has responded to BF's shenanigans by calling them out on it. BF thought they could roll BoK over. BoK just got the first blow it seems.
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Post by: Shepherd23
 Mr. Burning wrote:Shepherd23 wrote: Necros wrote:Yeah, that sounds pretty crappy.. weather you like the guy or not, putting stickers about it all over walls of someone's business and stuff is pretty juvenile, heck it almost sounds like vandalism in a way. Hopefully the hotel didn't charge the adepticon folks for the cleanup.
By its definition, The stickers were a form of vandalism. Defacement of property is what happened, and that is the basic definition of vandalism. Now, back to the pointless litigation!
It isnt pointless litigation.
BoK has responded to BF's shenanigans by calling them out on it. BF thought they could roll BoK over. BoK just got the first blow it seems.
You are correct in this. What I meant by saying that it is pointless, is that this should never have come to a court in the first place. The whole C&D nonsense was pointless.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Edit: whoops, missed all the red text on page 4. 
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Post by: Polonius
BrookM wrote: Polonius wrote:What makes Romeo's status as a public figure more likely is his ubiquityy: he goes to all the cons, makes his own videos, runs a podcast, engages people online, and in general is not only the owner of a national (if niche) business, but is an active participant in community discussion. The courts generally hold that a person that eagerly seeks the spotlight has to take the good with the bad.
He's also a big name in the baseball bat industry, or did that come to an end?
as a limited public figure, the the statements made have to relate somehow to the reason the person is a public figure.
For a general public figure, that is not true.
So, for somebody like, say, Lebron James, a person could publish a report that he was some sort of sexual deviant or criminal, as long as they did it without malice or knowledge that it was false.
for a limited public figure, it cannot be slander if the statement relates to their fame. So, calling out Romeo on his actions as the owner of BF is protected, as that's why he's known. That he is also well known in another community has probably little impact on this. Also, you couldn't, say, accuse Romeo of perversion, as his sexual mores are not part of his status as a public figure.
The law basically divides people into three piles:
private figures: people that are only known personally
Public figures: people that are generally known to many people across a broad spectrum of people
Limited Public Figures: people that are known, but either to a smaller group, location, or community or are known almost entirely because of their involvement in a specific controversy.
The mayor of a town would be a public figure: most people know who he/she is.
A housewife married to a mechanic would be a private figure: only friends, family, and those she does business with know who she is.
A pastor that is heavily involved in charity work and frequently speaks on the topic of poverty would be a limited public figure. A lot of people know who he is, but only because of his involvement in a discussion.
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Post by: weeble1000
 Absolutionis wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
There's no suit, yet.
Battlefoam issued a takedown notice to BoK for slander threatening legal action.
BoK refused to back down and decided to assemble a lawyer to defend themselves. They're calling the challenge and seeing if Battlefoam will follow through with their threat.
There is a suit, filed by BoK. BF sends a C&D making certain allegations and threatening legal action. The recipient engages a lawyer and files a suit seeking declaratory relief. The potential defendant essentially preempted the threatened lawsuit by bringing the allegations before the Court. If the Court finds that the allegations are without merit, the threatened lawsuit is essentially decided, and the entity that made the threat could be liable for damages.
The allegations are now before the Court, but importantly it is a court of BoK's choosing, so he was essentially able to secure venue in his backyard.
Note, however, that the allegations were made by Battlefoam. I cannot stress that enough. The allegations are before a Court, but they were made by Battlefoam in a C&D that threatened to bring them before a court. So, even though BoK is technically the plaintiff, the allegations the suit is seeking to get a declaration from the Court about originated from the defendant.
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Post by: Polonius
Shepherd23 wrote: You are correct in this. What I meant by saying that it is pointless, is that this should never have come to a court in the first place. The whole C&D nonsense was pointless.
A C&D is like asking a girl for her phone number: it doesn't cost much, and sometimes you get lucky.
alas, sometimes her boyfriend is there, and kicks your ass. In this case, they got hit with a complaint for DJ, which meant they couldn't file suit locally, and now have to respond.
Of course, if the statements made by BoK are not true, then a C&D is actually not a bad thing to do. Based on what I've heard, they were pretty inflamatory. Of course, BoK has multiple affirmative defenses...
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Post by: Shepherd23
So lets say a judge somehow determines that Romeo has a case. Does this mean that another case will follow or will it be determined by this judge as well?
If it is not this judge that will handle it, Does Romeo then get choice of venue?
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Post by: weeble1000
Polonius wrote:Shepherd23 wrote: You are correct in this. What I meant by saying that it is pointless, is that this should never have come to a court in the first place. The whole C&D nonsense was pointless.
A C&D is like asking a girl for her phone number: it doesn't cost much, and sometimes you get lucky. alas, sometimes her boyfriend is there, and kicks your ass. In this case, they got hit with a complaint for DJ, which meant they couldn't file suit locally, and now have to respond. Of course, if the statements made by BoK are not true, then a C&D is actually not a bad thing to do. Based on what I've heard, they were pretty inflamatory. Of course, BoK has multiple affirmative defenses...
Not that I think you would disagree, but inflammatory does not equal defamation. This is a tough road to climb, especially in the US. The only thing that is on Battlefoam's side is, I think, that the article concerned Romeo's business. Truth is the ultimate defense, but evidence of Romeo's vitriolic participation in such public debates and his arguably considerable efforts to be a public figure will probably end the case before it starts. I do not see any money changing hands over this. My guess is that the Judge will grant the declaratory relief or Romeo's lawyers will have a friendly chat with the plaintiff's big guns and this whole thing will get settled out behind the scenes in a couple of weeks.
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Post by: Devoted-to-the-machine
An ongoing issue is that it’s rare that the gaming community votes with its wallet. We bitch a moan about "New Coke" but keep buying "New Coke" and choking it down. If only we knew that "Coke Classic" was just around the corner and all we had to do was not buy "New Coke." This reference is probably lost on the foreign members and might be too old for the younger ones but it’s just a good example of how we doom ourselves to be abused by bad business practices. We buy the product.
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Post by: weeble1000
Shepherd23 wrote:So lets say a judge somehow determines that Romeo has a case. Does this mean that another case will follow or will it be determined by this judge as well?
If it is not this judge that will handle it, Does Romeo then get choice of venue?
You know how on Law and Order: SVU the episode always begins with a crime that at least seems to be sexual, but even if it is just a vanilla murder the SVU team keeps investigating it anyway?
That is sort of the situation here. The allegations are before a Court. The facts are what they are, and once a Court starts working on something, it wastes time and money to make someone else start all over. The suit will remain before that Court and that Judge unless someone tries to move it, unless I am missing something.
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Post by: czakk
http://www.popehat.com/2013/05/02/battlefoam-learns-why-legal-threats-can-be-dangerous/
Popehat has a post up about this now. Nothing particularly in depth, but hopefully if the case moves forward he'll post more.
A bit more hidden in the comments, which I'll post up because lots of folks skip comments in blog posts:
WRT the C&D being over done:
Here's a few of the things that make it blustery:
1. They demand removal of all mentions of Battlefoam et al, but "at a minimum" the allegedly defamatory article. There's no basis to remove anything but the defamatory article.
2. The demand for attorney fees within one week.
3. The demand to post an attorney-provided affidavit (which, by the way, is a trick; any affidavit admitting the statements were false could be used against Hayden later, because the promise not to sue in the letter is inadequate).
4. A one-week deadline.
WRT some of the defamation stuff:
Also, with respect to Battlefoam's claim that it is defamatory to say that Filip threatened customers, a search turned up this claim.
If it is true that Filip sent a message like this:
From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever…
Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.
Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.
When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.
Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.
. . . then it will be very difficult to prove it's defamatory to say he threatened someone.
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Post by: jbunny
 Kirasu wrote:Romeo seems to have a severe anger problem. That is not a good quality in a business owner.
My only experience with Battle foam is great product, terrible customer service.
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Post by: Frazzled
40k-noob wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.
Time to go with Sabol instead.
The Black Label series of cases from Battlefoam are just Hardigg cases with BF stamped on them.
Find yourself a Hardigg case on the cheap from ebay or elsewhere and just get yourself some custom foam trays.
Compare:
BF
Black Label J-8 Case w/Trays @ 249
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.5W x 13L x 7H" (470W x 330L x 178H mm)
Ebay
Hardigg IM2450 case @ 135
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.00" x 13.00" x 8.40" (45.7 x 33 x 21.3 cm)
Roughly the same case, 100+ cheaper.
Expect a C&D letter shortly... 
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Post by: Hulksmash
Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
Yeah - and of course the stickers caused issues that AdeptiCon and Westin staff had to deal with since they were placed on other vendor booths and throughout different areas in the hotel. Westin staff were not happy with this and neither were some of the other vendors that we work with.
So a message to the person / people who did this. Please find a different method of protest. Because while you may have achieved some personal satisfaction, all you did was cause problems for an overworked volunteer AdeptiCon staff and an hotel that tries to bring you a wonderful atmosphere to meet up with other enthusiasts.
I just found them amusing. At the same time I hope they caught the person doing as I love the Westin who has been very accomodating to me personally and it seems the convention as a whole.
Basically I laughed then winced. Knowing it was going to cause issues with the Adepticon Staff and the Hotel. I do feel for you guys, it would only have made it a longer weekend.
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Post by: Frazzled
H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
When a boy foam company and a girl foam company get together, they share a special kiss. Sometimes another girl foam company doesn't like this, and cooks their pet rabbit.
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Post by: Saldiven
 Frazzled wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?
When a boy foam company and a girl foam company get together, they share a special kiss. Sometimes another girl foam company doesn't like this, and cooks their pet rabbit.
Your weiner dog taught you that, didn't he? I knew they were smart....
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Post by: Darth Bob
I've never dealt with Battlefoam personally, but I know others who have and I have heard nothing but bad things about their customer service. I also have a friend who met Romeo and was told that he is a complete donkey-cave. I'm quite interested to see how this turns out. I foresee it ending very badly for Romeo. Oh no, Romeo, please don't send a C&D at me too. 
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Post by: Frazzled
Polonius wrote:Shepherd23 wrote: You are correct in this. What I meant by saying that it is pointless, is that this should never have come to a court in the first place. The whole C&D nonsense was pointless.
A C&D is like asking a girl for her phone number: it doesn't cost much, and sometimes you get lucky.
alas, sometimes her boyfriend is there, and kicks your ass. In this case, they got hit with a complaint for DJ, which meant they couldn't file suit locally, and now have to respond.
Of course, if the statements made by BoK are not true, then a C&D is actually not a bad thing to do. Based on what I've heard, they were pretty inflamatory. Of course, BoK has multiple affirmative defenses...
Polonius wins for acquainting a legal document with dating advice. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Darth Bob wrote:I've never dealt with Battlefoam personally, but I know others who have and I have heard nothing but bad things about their customer service. I also have a friend who met Romeo and was told that he is a complete donkey-cave. I'm quite interested to see how this turns out. I foresee it ending very badly for Romeo.
Oh no, Romeo, please don't send a C&D at me too.
Too late. C&D and threatening email incoming.
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Post by: Darth Bob
I'm expecting him to send me an email asking me to tell him where I live while he elaborates on how 'I don't know what he's capable of'.  /sarcasm Who would have thought that the maker of miniature storage could be such a scary guy. /sarcasm
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Post by: 40k-noob
Frazzled wrote:40k-noob wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.
Time to go with Sabol instead.
The Black Label series of cases from Battlefoam are just Hardigg cases with BF stamped on them.
Find yourself a Hardigg case on the cheap from ebay or elsewhere and just get yourself some custom foam trays.
Compare:
BF
Black Label J-8 Case w/Trays @ 249
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.5W x 13L x 7H" (470W x 330L x 178H mm)
Ebay
Hardigg IM2450 case @ 135
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.00" x 13.00" x 8.40" (45.7 x 33 x 21.3 cm)
Roughly the same case, 100+ cheaper.
Expect a C&D letter shortly...
I have Family in Arizona. If he threatens me to meet and settle it like a man, I will make that happen next time I visit Az.
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Post by: czakk
Another little update in the popehat comments, re california's anti-SLAPP statute:
California's anti-SLAPP statute wouldn't apply to the complaint. But it could apply to any cross-complaint Battlefoam files.
Info about California's anti-SLAPP statute:
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/anti-slapp-law-california
Quick summary:
Hearing gets scheduled within 30 days. (the matter could be resolved very quickly).
No discovery.
Costs award.
Possibility of a SLAPPback suit which lets you collect damages for abuse of process.
-------
How to get information from the courthouse on this case (for those interested)
This link should work:
http://icms.cc-courts.org/tellme/tellme/topics.asp?language=ENGLISH&courtcode=A&casetype=CIV&casenumber=MSC13-00674
To get actual copies of the documents filed I think we have to either write the courthouse or go in person unfortunately.
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Post by: Aerethan
Should be interesting to see Romeo try and dig his way out of this.
My experience with BF is rather limited, but this thread has brought to light many claims and statements from Romeo that just shut down any thought of buying his product.
He's lucky his company is privately owned, as I could damn near guarantee that stock holders would demand his removal from active roles in the company with behavior like this. Quite unprofessional.
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Post by: Lint
I am subscribing to this thread with great interest.
Definitely seems like a case of BattleFoam getting their bluff called.
It also seems like a lot of tit-for-tat pettiness.
Finally, I find it hilarious that BattleFoam now has to travel to CA to respond.
I'd like to see this thread continue in much the same way the CHS v. GW thread has, i.e. with updates and facts about the suit.
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Post by: ProtoClone
Seriously, why?
What's there to prove? So some dude said some crap about you, so what...from the sounds of it many people say many things. My thought has always been in most of these cases, that unless there is some truth to it why give it power? Granted there is over-the-line and without having seen the blog post in question, I can only say this; You throw rocks at a wasp nest, you will get results...that goes for both parties involved.
Who would have thought miniature wargaming would turn in to such a legal battlefield?
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Post by: DrLegend
I'll probably receive some flak for this but I'm siding with Romeo on this one from a purely business perspective.
I had the opportunity to move to AZ about 2 years ago and went to all of the local hobby shops. Out of all of them, Romeo and the Battlefoam Gaming Saloon accepted me with open arms and made me feel like I was their best customer every time I walked through those doors. Even though I was only a "customer" in the other local shops, Romeo was very friendly and helpful. I've seen him working in his office for countless hours (well beyond the normal grind of the 9-5er). Romeo has a clear and dedicated passion for this business which is why I can see why he would take something like that article to heart.
I haven't read the article but judging by the bits and pieces I put together I can counter a few of the "potential" claims being made. For starters, I've never seen Romeo raise his voice let alone yell at any of his customers (potential or current). He always sounds very humble when he's on the phone. The amount of professionalism I see from him on a daily basis is a testament to why his business has done so well. He takes pride in what he puts his name on and isn't trying to merely sell something to you to make a quick buck. This business isn't an easy one. If it was, there'd be a whole lot more companies trying to do the same thing. I've played a few games in the Saloon and even with Battlefoam logos and product on 50% of the walls, not once did Romeo or the BF staff ever give crap to someone who came in to play some games that brought in a competitor's bag/foam. I made a joke about it once and Romeo just casually said "It's all good. We're here to hobby and have fun. If he sees something he likes here maybe he'll buy it." I've never once seen or heard Romeo deface any competitors in front of an audience or just between myself and him.
From a business standpoint, Romeo has a right to protect his and his company's image from these claims. Reputation is a key selling factor. If you were told something horrendous about a company you support, wouldn't you consider doing business elsewhere even if their product is superior? And why would they do that? Guilt by association. That is why Romeo is justifiably doing everything in his power to defend himself. These claims are not only affecting Battlefoam but any other company that he carries a license for (Privateer Press, Mantic, ect). I'm sure those companies wouldn't want to associate themselves with another based on claims made in a blog so I fully support Romeo's actions in this matter. He has the right to protect his business. Something like this could be potentially devastating so he needs to take the best course of action in order to protect himself, his business, and his partners.
I know I don't have much of a dog in this fight but I feel like I owe it to the man who welcomed me so warmly when I first arrived.
61721
Post by: czakk
 DrLegend wrote:That is why Romeo is justifiably doing everything in his power to defend himself. These claims are not only affecting Battlefoam but any other company that he carries a license for (Privateer Press, Mantic, ect). I'm sure those companies wouldn't want to associate themselves with another based on claims made in a blog so I fully support Romeo's actions in this matter. He has the right to protect his business. Something like this could be potentially devastating so he needs to take the best course of action in order to protect himself, his business, and his partners.
It would be good to see the allegedly defamatory article. It doesn't seem to be cached anywhere. I'm not sure why it wasn't included with the released complaint (it was filed with it as exhibit A).
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Post by: Balance
My personal relationship with Battlefoam is best described as 'neutral'... I use and like their product, but have had some CS issues that diminish the overall rating.
However, here's the thing: Complaining about negative reviews rarely, if ever does much positive. It often ends like this, with continued comments about the incident that can have a much wider and more negative impact than the original comment.
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Post by: pretre
It is very possible to be a nice guy in person and very professional and a donkey-cave on the internet. I'm living proof! Automatically Appended Next Post: czakk wrote: I'm not sure why it wasn't included with the released complaint (it was filed with it as exhibit A).
Because it was removed since it was being complained about. It wouldn't be bright to include a link to it right on BOK.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Regardless of how valid or in-valid the BF claims are vs BoK, there is zero to be gained by BF by advancing this suit.
If BF presses on and wins, the article is taken down, and BF is seen as an oppressor of free speech and a legal bully.
If BF presses on and loses, BoK becomes insufferable*, BF is on the hook for legal fees, and still suffers the reputation losses from above.
The best move? Eat crow. Try something akin to this: "We were overzealous in defending our reputation. I still maintain that that TastyTaste's accusations are false, and I will defend my company's reputation for innovative, high-quality war-gaming accessories with every fiber of my being, but I will do it outside of the US legal system. I'm passionate about the quality my products and my customer service, as you all well know, and for that, I will never apologize."**
That way, we know he's aware of the level of backlash, we know that he's a grown-up who can recognize when he's gone too far, and the damage to BF's reputation is minimized.*** BoK will crow for a bit, but people will care less, because there's no on-going circus side show in court. That's the best move, IMHO.
*well, more insufferable.
**Not an actual quote, but it gets the point across.
***I doubt this will happen
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Post by: Aerethan
 Balance wrote:My personal relationship with Battlefoam is best described as 'neutral'... I use and like their product, but have had some CS issues that diminish the overall rating.
However, here's the thing: Complaining about negative reviews rarely, if ever does much positive. It often ends like this, with continued comments about the incident that can have a much wider and more negative impact than the original comment.
I agree. I had no knowledge of Romeo's douchebaggery prior to this thread and incident. Had he left well enough alone, I had planned on buying a case for my paint collection.
So thanks Romeo, for freeing up some of my money for other things.
61721
Post by: czakk
I could be wrong, but don't court filings avoid the whole defamation issue? They are considered to have absolute privilege up here and you can post, discuss, and debate about court documents as much as you like. Outside of a publication ban that is.
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Post by: Janthkin
You guys had your chance. A number of you held to the restrictions properly, but at least half the posts on this page alone are at least off-topic, and many are also rude.
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