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 Killionaire wrote:
Are we surprised really?

Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.

And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.

From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...

Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.

Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.

When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.

Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.

But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!

Wow, this is incredibly ridiculous. 100% unprofessional. I don't care if the Infinity posters were making gak up to slander Battlefoam, such a threat from anyone, let alone a company owner, is never acceptable. I personally had considered battle foaming out all of my miniatures for the pure convenience factor once I had more time for tournaments and traveling, but I would feel morally corrupt if I supported someone that acts as Romeo does. I am a 21st century person with access to the internet and a commercial shop that offers laser cutting service, I will take the 3 hours and save myself 100s of dollars and just custom cut foam myself. I will certainly not be buying Battlefoam.

Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?

There's no suit, yet.

Battlefoam issued a takedown notice to BoK for slander threatening legal action.
BoK refused to back down and decided to assemble a lawyer to defend themselves. They're calling the challenge and seeing if Battlefoam will follow through with their threat.

Killionaire wrote:..Hi Romeo?

I don't really think the character needs to be assassinated. One's own words and actions tends to do it without outside help.

This is sort of a trend, which is why I'm cynically looking at any 'new registry' that solely exists to bump up stuff related to battlefoam.

I mean. It's what happened on the Infinity Thread, where he (very obviously) created a new account to post (and was caught at it), as well as several cases on Dakka, when trying to plug Wild West Exodus.

doc1234 wrote:Hi Romeo being my first thought too. Random new account popping up saying "Ok I just happen to know him, and Romeo is a cool guy. Like seriously hes smart handsome and the best person ever and and " It's like something out of a bad cartoon.

To be fair, TasteyTaste himself has said that Romeo the gamer is a great guy to hangout and drink with... it's Romeo the Businessman he finds issue with. Though granted he wrote those words like 3 years ago, so things may have changed

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?

Same here but as it stands it appears to be a suit over the projectile fecal matter being thrown around by bok (legitimate or not)

Wait really? You're putting a piece of work for the world to see and getting upset when people hate on it? Dealing with criticism, warranted or not, is part of the game. If you can't deal with it, stay away from the comments or the reviews. It's something every writer, blogger, podcaster, etc. has to deal with, and being mature about handling negative feedback is huge. This is entirely ridiculous, can't believe anyone would take something said online this far.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Killionaire wrote:..Hi Romeo?

I don't really think the character needs to be assassinated. One's own words and actions tends to do it without outside help.

This is sort of a trend, which is why I'm cynically looking at any 'new registry' that solely exists to bump up stuff related to battlefoam.

I mean. It's what happened on the Infinity Thread, where he (very obviously) created a new account to post (and was caught at it), as well as several cases on Dakka, when trying to plug Wild West Exodus.

doc1234 wrote:Hi Romeo being my first thought too. Random new account popping up saying "Ok I just happen to know him, and Romeo is a cool guy. Like seriously hes smart handsome and the best person ever and and " It's like something out of a bad cartoon.

To be fair, TasteyTaste himself has said that Romeo the gamer is a great guy to hangout and drink with... it's Romeo the Businessman he finds issue with. Though granted he wrote those words like 3 years ago, so things may have changed

Oh no i'm sure he could well be in his personal life. Even if he DOES have a few anger issues doesn't make him a bad person. It was more internet toughguy act/ This commenter popping up randomly with 0 previous posts just to praise Romeo that made me chuckle.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry, I'm still struggling to work out what this suit is over?

Quick summation, from what I can tell...

Blood of Kittens (BoK) posted an article/editorial about what they viewed as dodgy Battlefoam (BF) business practises.

BF noticed said article, and got bent out of shape about it, to the degree of paying a lawyer to send a C&D letter to the guy behind BoK. Said letter indicated that unless certain actions were taken within 7 days of the date the letter was written - including BoK sending a cheque for $2,500 of legal fees to BF's lawyer - BF would sue for defamation of character.

BoK, understandably, were somewhat taken aback by this, but contacted one of the interweb free speech groups and got pro bono representation.

BoK have since filed in their state's court to get a judgement to say that what they posted wasn't defamatory, and possibly to get monies from BF for the shenanigans. In the meantime, they have taken down the offending post until it gets ruled on.

*EDIT* - Sheesh, that was a lot of ninja-ing while I was typing. Maybe my summation, it was not so quick...

Thread terminated.

Folks, NOTHING is gained by dragging conversations off-topic to discuss how your opinions of one party or another were formed by rumors you read on the Internet this one time. If we're going to discuss this topic (and we're welcome to do so), it's going to be under the same constraints as the long-running ChapterHouse thread - discussion is limited to the specifics of pending litigation, and check your emotional baggage at the door.

It'd be good to start with a factual subject line, too. As was noted, this is a declaratory judgment action - BoK filed suit.

Ok, now that there has been a bit of time to cool off, I am going to move this thread to discussions as it is still a noteworthy topic in the industry.

That being said, exactly as Janthkin says above.

If we're going to discuss this topic, it's going to be under the same constraints as the long-running ChapterHouse thread -

Discussion is limited to the specifics of pending litigation, and check your emotional baggage at the door. Slinging mud at specific individuals based on nothing but heresay will result in action

Remember the rules and stick to them people.

I have a ton of Battlefoam foam & bags.

I was a supporter of Romeo buying (or whatever) 40k Radio, until they did the show about the GW price hike a few years ago. Clearly, Romeo wanted to be the "official" bag / foam supplier to GW and his take on why the Australian prices were out of whack were biased by his desire to secure GW's business.

You almost did it right, but I am editing out a single sentence that made a definitive statement on character as if it was fact. Do not attack the person. You can certainly offer your views on their opinions, but you can't be outright rude. MT11

Which brings us to this and some questions:
1) Why the lag in sending the C&D to BoK?

2) Doesn't Romeo need to show damages caused by BoK's posting?

3) If BoK gets the ruling they want, does that mean this matter is closed or does Romeo have other options?

The guy to get covering this would be Ken over at http://www.popehat.com/. He's a free speech attorney and blogger and a certified geek, so it might be interesting enough for him to look into.

I don't think Romeo has a leg to stand on, and he's picked a fight that's uphill at best.

Ah.

Just finished reading through the statement of claim.

Battlefoam is in for a rough rough ride. Mark J Randazza is a certified badass (well, legally speaking).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

evancich wrote:


3) If BoK gets the ruling they want, does that mean this matter is closed or does Romeo have other options?

The matter is effectively closed. Romeo could appeal to a higher court of course.

If you send a threatening cease and desist letter to someone they typically have the option to go to their local courthouse and say "Hey, this guy is threatening to sue me. I'm tired of his posturing, let's settle this here and now." There wouldn't be much point to the filing if it didn't have some finality.



Also, in the statement of claim, BoK asserts that Battlefoam / Romeo are limited public figures (mini celebrities / well known folks). If successful in this characterization this will up the burden of proof on Battlefoam:

www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice-and-negligence

Celebrities, politicians, high-ranking or powerful government officials, and others with power in society are generally considered public figures/officials and are required to prove actual malice. Unlike these well-known and powerful individuals, your shy neighbor is likely to be a private figure who is only required to prove negligence if you publish something defamatory about her. Determining who is a public or private figure is not always easy. In some instances, the categories may overlap. For example, a blogger who is a well-known authority on clinical research involving autism may be considered a public figure for purposes of controversies involving autism, but not for other purposes.

Battlefoam has a pretty long history of doing this, its not just BoK, they hit Outrider, Sabol, I remember reading a case where they went after people with a sister company Diablo Bats.

Sabol and KnR have great products, there is no reason to patron a patent troll. Whether or not you want to buy Battlefoam or not has no bearing on the legal merits of this case. Maybe you missed my warning earlier.

STAY ON TOPIC PEOPLE. THE TOPIC IS THE LEGAL CIRCUMSTANCES BETWEEN BATTLEFOAM AND BLOOD OF KITTENS.

NOT WHOSE FOAM YOU LIKE

NOT PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ROMEO FILIP. RULE #1 STILL APPLIES.

IF YOU GUYS CAN'T STAY ON TOPIC THIS THREAD WILL BE CLOSED, WHICH WILL BE A SHAME.

warning issued, I'm not messing around man. MT11

As far as I can tell, this is all pretty standard stuff... it's just that we are reading about it on a blog in the gaming industry.

I don't think this is anything too odd.

A little bit about the lawyer on the other side:

http://maypotenza.com/News/NewsDetail.aspx?categoryId=0&a=6708

Mr. Sreecharana is what we in Canada would call a 1 year call – an extremely junior lawyer who would only be assigned basic of tasks under close supervision. Not knocking him, and perhaps things are different in Arizona, but it up here it would be a sign that the law firm either:

a) didn’t expect any resistance from BoK,

and / or

b) were being extremely cost conscious on behalf of their client.


All that said, the scholarship (Kennedy Scholar) he is listed as having is (I believe) a full 3 year scholarship worth about $150k given to the top student(s) at his law school (which admitting is a second law tier school). So he's probably one of the best juniors in Arizona.

Perhaps they'll hand this off to another more senior lawyer if it goes to trial.

But... but what?

Don't leave us hanging! Finish your sentences! Otherwise you

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But... but what?

Don't leave us hanging! Finish your sentences! Otherwise you

Heh sorry. I finished marking exams and I've been drinking some celebratory beers.



He could have just been hired to draft the demand letter, they could have a more heavyweight lawyer to do the actual trial. Normally up here you would have the junior draft the letter and the senior sign it (cause it's scarier).

He could also have brought in Battlefoam as a new client and have carriage of the case all to himself. In a small firm you start doing real work on your own faster than in a big one.

I'll go check recap and see who battlefoam hired in the past as lawyers.

czakk wrote:
A little bit about the lawyer on the other side:

http://maypotenza.com/News/NewsDetail.aspx?categoryId=0&a=6708

Mr. Sreecharana is what we in Canada would call a 1 year call – an extremely junior lawyer who would only be assigned basic of tasks under close supervision. Not knocking him, and perhaps things are different in Arizona, but it up here it would be a sign that the law firm either:

a) didn’t expect any resistance from BoK,

and / or

b) were being extremely cost conscious on behalf of their client.

It's a C&D letter; that's exactly the sort of work you hand to a junior associate. I wouldn't read too much into that part.

Yep, no suit from either side yet, just BF sending a C&D and BoK going to a lawyer to get a DJ.

Essentially, Blood of Kittens telling Battlefoam to put up or shut up.

I do not see Romeo having much of a chance of winning this. The only thing that I can think of... maybe he saw other, larger companies *Cough* GW *Cough, Cough* doing similar things and thought that if it worked for them it could work for him as well?

Given GW's own legal problems right now... it does seem ill advised. And given that BF itself is nowhere near the size of GW... any legal duel is going to hurt them enough that it just does not seem worthwhile.

Hopefully Romeo's own lawyer will advise backing away.... This is not a situation where taking things over the top and out of the trenches is going to win him any ground.

The Auld Grump

Battlefoam's previous lawyer (in the outrider hobbies case http://archive.recapthelaw.org/nhd/35017/ ) is now a Patent Judge:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-daniels/7/108/b28


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Janthkin wrote:
It's a C&D letter; that's exactly the sort of work you hand to a junior associate. I wouldn't read too much into that part.

Yup yup. Just up here we'd have the junior draft it and someone more senior sign it if it was a serious matter. The senior is going to have to review it before it goes out anyways*, might as well have him/her sign it.

*So that you don't end up getting your client dragged into a different jurisdiction for instance.


It might be a firm culture thing up here though. We are staid and stuffy compared to american lawyers.

There's several reasons I've never bought BF product. (and never will)

1: I see more class in an episode of Jersey Shore than I do in Romeo's online antics. Of course all that matters is what somebody is like in face time right? Having spoken with him in person at conventions I can attest that he in fact has all the alluring charm of a snake oil salesman.

2: It's friggin expensive. Something is wrong when you can buy an already overpriced $100 GW army case and feel like you're getting it for a song compared to BF pricing.

3: Rage nutting. Its unprofessional and while Romeo later backtracks and apologizes for flying off the handle it shouldn't be occuring in the first place; especially when your name is driving your business. Nobody likes the internet tough guy, it puts a very poor image on your business and will cost sales.


The above is of course all personal opinion. I feel sorry for those who can't seem to grasp the concept that somebody out on the internet may dislike what you have to say. Heaven forbid.



I will now begin my slow clap for BoK, you certainly have my support.



.

If this reaches court, would this be a big drawn out case costing thousands of Dollars, or a quick open and shut curbstomp of justice?

Ah man Foam Wars is back - Love it!

Foam Wars V: this time it's legal!

I don't read BoK or have much need for Battle Foam products (KR rules btw) and while Romeo's rep (good and bad) is well known I am having difficulty on who to bet on. A viewing of the article in question would help.

Am a looking a getting some BF Zombiecide trays; I dnot think anything here will make a difference in that unless KR decide to make a Zombiecide tray (can you say Foam Wars VI!).

 BrookM wrote:
If this reaches court, would this be a big drawn out case costing thousands of Dollars, or a quick open and shut curbstomp of justice?

I wish curbstompings were a legal punishment in our country

Post redacted. Posting useful information is fine; mixing it with rude statements about other users, even in illustrative form, is not. --Janthkin

Standard disclaimer: While I am technically a lawyer, I'm not your lawyer. I'm not anybody's lawyer, but I'm certainly not yours. My thoughts here are not legal advice. Seek counsel if you have a specific question.

 BrookM wrote:
If this reaches court, would this be a big drawn out case costing thousands of Dollars, or a quick open and shut curbstomp of justice?

Depends on what you mean by "reaches court." It's already in court, BoK filed a complaint.

At this point, the length/expense is up to BF. If they respond, and say they can prove their case, then it becomes a pretty standard defamation suit. If the judge rules that Romeo is a limited public figure, than BoK will probably win on summary judgement, as having nearly any supprot for a statement against a public figure is enough to avoid defamation.

If the judge rules that Romeo is not a public figure (and I can't even begin to guess on that factor), then Romeo needs to prove that BoK said some thing false that hurt his reputation. Since BoKs statements were about his business, he doesn't need to show actual damages (which are a list of how he's actually hurt), but can instead ask for damages perscribed by law.

As for an actual trial, that likely wouldn't take long. But the lead up can be lenghty and costly. BoK will no doubt present the sworn affadavits, which means BF will want to depose them all.

If you're reading at home, and thinking that BF needs a lot of things to break their way to win, you are correc.t Defamation is a pretty tough tort to win on in the US.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

czakk wrote:


Also, in the statement of claim, BoK asserts that Battlefoam / Romeo are limited public figures (mini celebrities / well known folks). If successful in this characterization this will up the burden of proof on Battlefoam:

www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice-and-negligence

Celebrities, politicians, high-ranking or powerful government officials, and others with power in society are generally considered public figures/officials and are required to prove actual malice. Unlike these well-known and powerful individuals, your shy neighbor is likely to be a private figure who is only required to prove negligence if you publish something defamatory about her. Determining who is a public or private figure is not always easy. In some instances, the categories may overlap. For example, a blogger who is a well-known authority on clinical research involving autism may be considered a public figure for purposes of controversies involving autism, but not for other purposes.

Huh, I'd forgotten that one of the "prongs" for the limited public figure test is "•The depth of the person's participation in the controversy. " Meaning, a person that is flinging mud of his own can't complain as much when some gets on him.

By all accounts, Romeo has not remained above the fray. He seems to participate, willingly, in pretty heated debate. That could show that he's not just helpless victim of slander, but a legitimate figure of discussion.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

I do not see Romeo having much of a chance of winning this. The only thing that I can think of... maybe he saw other, larger companies *Cough* GW *Cough, Cough* doing similar things and thought that if it worked for them it could work for him as well?

Given GW's own legal problems right now... it does seem ill advised. And given that BF itself is nowhere near the size of GW... any legal duel is going to hurt them enough that it just does not seem worthwhile.

This doesn't seem to really be all that similar to what's going on with GW right now (at least the items which I'm aware of, faeit and CHS.) Both of those are getting into trademark and copyright issues, which I don't think is the case (this time) with Battlefoam. The BoK/BF thing is just a good old fashioned 'Oh god they said something mean on the internet!' situation.

Other than both being game companies that are getting into a legal situation and the internet somehow being involved, there doesn't seem to be much more similarity. I suppose in both cases, the game company (BF/GW) are making actions which are ill-founded and quite possibly not in their best interests. *Both* cases make me less willing to give the company money.