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The technical term for a person that committed a tort is a "tortfeasor."

My law school had an IM basketball team that called themselves the Tortfeasors.

 Alpharius wrote:
Updated the title so that it is correct - please let me know if it isn't!

Thanks, Alpharius. It seems accurate to me.

I've picked up some battlefoam, and I like the product. It is expensive with expensive shipping, but good and sometimes the fit is funky on the models. I listen to 40K Radio; Romeo seems like a good guy to his friends (even if some would call him verbally abusive).
Blood of Kittens, and TasteyTaste, is 'hard hitting'... if 'hard hitting' is inflammatory. I stopped reading him a while back, because he doesn't match my tender sensitivities. I'm sure he's a nice guy if you know him.

This is a stupid fight between people who should be better than this. The whole situation makes me sad.

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Updated the title so that it is correct - please let me know if it isn't!

Thanks! I only put one point into Knowledge: Law.

That's not even a class skill for me!

Mohoc wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
Mh... the title is wrong..... Blood Of Kittens has sue Battlefoam, not the other way.

? I don't think you're reading it correctly.

"Battlefoam LLC has taken legal action against this site over a post made in March" and "I was lucky enough to procure a pro-bono defense" among other things.

No, I am not reading it wrong. TastyTaste got a C&D letter from Battle Foam and turned around and filed a lawsuit against them.

Here is the C&D:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Battlefoam-CD-Full.pdf

Here is the lawsuit TastyTaste filed:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Blood-of-Kittens-Battlefoam-Response.pdf

Thank you for the clarification, Mohoc.

If nothing else, both Blood of Kittens and Battlefoam have additional exposure. There's no such thing as bad publicity (or however that saying goes). Maybe it's a conspiracy.

Wow, I didn't know about this.

I am never buying a battlefoam product.

For me, the attitude of the company and the people running it does actually matter. It's the main reason why I don't buy GW.

Anpu-adom wrote:
This is a stupid fight between people who should be better than this. The whole situation makes me sad.

This is a pretty classic example of "nobody wins but the lawyers."

OTOH...

BoK isn't stupid. they're tangling with a guy that has a pretty nasty reputation. They might be trying to gain PR as being a good guy, fighting the "good fight." That they have pro-bono representation isn't shocking, First Amendment cases are like catnip to lawyers that work for free.

That he's asking for donations to help with legal fees after retaining pro-bono counsle and filing the suit to prove a point means something, but what is an exercise left to the reader.

 Polonius wrote:

Mohoc wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Mohoc wrote:
Mh... the title is wrong..... Blood Of Kittens has sue Battlefoam, not the other way.

? I don't think you're reading it correctly.

"Battlefoam LLC has taken legal action against this site over a post made in March" and "I was lucky enough to procure a pro-bono defense" among other things.

No, I am not reading it wrong. TastyTaste got a C&D letter from Battle Foam and turned around and filed a lawsuit against them.

Here is the C&D:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Battlefoam-CD-Full.pdf

Here is the lawsuit TastyTaste filed:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Blood-of-Kittens-Battlefoam-Response.pdf

Mohoc is actually right. While Battle Foam threatened legal action, BoK actually filed the complaint.

Good move - called the other guyy's bluff. he's also trying to pull JD to California.

 Polonius wrote:

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Time to go with Sabol instead.

Don't do it.

Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.

Sabol bags are garbage but the foam is pretty good. Cheaper than Romeo's, too, iirc.

KR foam is quite nice, too, and has custom-cut foam for Dropzone Commander. There are alternatives out there and a company the size of Battlefoam in a niche hobby like this honestly shouldn't be trying to throw their weight around so much.

 Lorek wrote:
If nothing else, both Blood of Kittens and Battlefoam have additional exposure. There's no such thing as bad publicity (or however that saying goes). Maybe it's a conspiracy.

Michael Jackson would disagree with you on that.

Polonius wrote:

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
...
Time to go with Sabol instead.

Don't do it.

Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.

I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.

In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?

I just found out that I have no idea what a "tort" is .. it sounds like something I'd eat for breakfast, or desert. Now I'm hungry.

Wish folks didn't have to throw lawyers around so much in the gaming world. Couldn't they just sit down and chat over a beer or 12 at the next con?

 Necros wrote:
I just found out that I have no idea what a "tort" is .. it sounds like something I'd eat for breakfast, or desert. Now I'm hungry.

Wish folks didn't have to throw lawyers around so much in the gaming world. Couldn't they just sit down and chat over a beer or 12 at the next con?

torte is the cake like breakfast thing you're thinking of

 Redbeard wrote:

Polonius wrote:

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
...
Time to go with Sabol instead.

Don't do it.

Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.

I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.

In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?

Because battlefoam did it first AM I RIGHT????

Seriously though I have used Sabol for over 5 years with no issues, still have my first case.

Cheaper product for the same job.

 Redbeard wrote:
[
I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.

In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?

How many models you can fit in a tray. Larger trays help, but I started buying Battlefoam for my Sabol bags. I was able to fit far more IG in each tray, plus trays for large kits was feasible.

I should amend that Sabol trays do their job of protecting just fine, and slightly better if you hot glue the pick and pluck properly. But BF is much more space effecient, and with specifically cut trays such as the WArmachine Heavy Jack trays, you have very snug fits for all of your big peices.

I've been using custom cut Outrider Hobbies trays in Portable Warfare bags for years now without issue, transporting models across the country by car and plane.

Custom/circle cut foam is definitely the way to go.

 Redbeard wrote:

Polonius wrote:

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
...
Time to go with Sabol instead.

Don't do it.

Unless your army is tiny, Sabol is a severly second class product. When you're trying to protect a huge investment of time and money, buy good stuff.

I've got close to 100,000 points worth of models in Sabol foam. I ride to games with a motorpool case on the back of my motorcycle, and have not had any problems with models breaking or arriving damaged. Sabol cases do the job they're designed to do, they protect your miniatures when you take them out of the house, and provide a convenient way to store them in the house.

In what way are battlefoam cases so superior as to warrant close to twice the price?

The bags are no where near as sturdy and neither is the foam. The foam doesn't become as worn and the bags last a lot longer as well. Of course anyones mileage may vary with any product and as always there will be differences of opinion. The fact is the foam and bags are a higher quality. Now, is it worth twice the price? Probably not, am I willing to pay it? Sometimes. If given a choice between both products, at a similar price, and taking personalities out of it I bet you would choose Battlefoam over Sabol. Then again the prices aren't near the same but the one product is clearly superior in design.

weeble1000 wrote:
Yea, but it is a DJ action. Battlefoam threatened legal action, and Mr. Hayden filed for declaratory judgment, which I suspect will be granted. It is a put-up-or-shut-up sort of thing. You threaten to sue me, I go to the court and say that you have no basis to file a lawsuit against me. If the Court finds that you don't, you can't follow through on your threat.

It may be technically true that Mr. Hayden filed the complaint, but it is an entirely appropriate response to Battlefoam's Cease and Desist letter, which threatened legal action. You can't threaten a lawsuit without having a legitimate basis to do so. That's why sending out a bunch of C&D letters is not always a good idea...

weeble1000, why do I feel like we dakkanaughts owe you a retainer? Where should I send my portion?

i've travelled the world for the last ten years with my Sabol Army Transport...
it's still in perfect condition, and my minis are always safe...

Battlefoam seems like a much slicker product, to be sure...
no need to replace something that works just fine, though...

cheers
jah

 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
I think the fact that Romeo can't stand his own business reputation and decided to do this instead of change his ways gives me enough of a reason not to order the XL i was looking at for my 30k Iron Warriors Project.

Time to go with Sabol instead.

The Black Label series of cases from Battlefoam are just Hardigg cases with BF stamped on them.

Find yourself a Hardigg case on the cheap from ebay or elsewhere and just get yourself some custom foam trays.


Compare:
BF
Black Label J-8 Case w/Trays @ 249
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.5W x 13L x 7H" (470W x 330L x 178H mm)

Ebay
Hardigg IM2450 case @ 135
Inside Case Dimensions - 18.00" x 13.00" x 8.40" (45.7 x 33 x 21.3 cm)

Roughly the same case, 100+ cheaper.

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The bags are no where near as sturdy and neither is the foam. The foam doesn't become as worn and the bags last a lot longer as well. Of course anyones mileage may vary with any product and as always there will be differences of opinion. The fact is the foam and bags are a higher quality. Now, is it worth twice the price? Probably not, am I willing to pay it? Sometimes. If given a choice between both products, at a similar price, and taking personalities out of it I bet you would choose Battlefoam over Sabol. Then again the prices aren't near the same but the one product is clearly superior in design.

I've been using Sabol cases since 2004. I haven't had one case or one piece of foam wear out on me. They may not feel as tough, but they do the job they're designed for, at a fraction the price. And, again, I travel with a case strapped to a motorcycle. For those of you unfamiliar, that means when I turn a corner, my case tips up to 30 degrees, unlike in a car where you're pretty much a stable platform. Sure, IF the price points were similar, I don't dislike the battlefoam product. But when comparing what you get for what you pay, Sabol is the superior product line. Cost IS a factor, especially when you have as many really large armies as I do. (I was at one of the GTs where Romeo had his personal foam cases, and was one of the people who encouraged him to try selling them. I think they're cool. But when I saw what he was charging, I simply couldn't make the switch.)

Polonius wrote:
How many models you can fit in a tray. Larger trays help, but I started buying Battlefoam for my Sabol bags. I was able to fit far more IG in each tray, plus trays for large kits was feasible.

Again, this depends on what kind of models you're talking about. I fit 67 ork boyz per 2.5" piece of sabol foam on the high side, but they're just ork boyz, so you know...

... But BF is much more space effecient, and with specifically cut trays such as the WArmachine Heavy Jack trays, you have very snug fits for all of your big peices.

Well, I guess if you never convert things to fit outside those initial dimensions. One of the problems I need to solve is that no army is ever really finished, so then I need to add another space for something new. Yeah, those laser-cut trays are awful space efficient if you're going for a fixed-size army and will never need to add another thing and can plan out all the space up front. But they're not flexible. If your model doesn't fit that pre-cut space just right, you need to take a knife to it, and that's not really optimal for something that costs so much, is it.

BF makes a good product, but I invested in Sabol yarens ago and I'm still using em to this day. My original Sabol bag is kinda worn, but my motorpool and division are in great shape. I actually used my division bag as my suitcase when I went to GenCon That makes me a nerd, right?

I have a few Sabol sized BF trays though.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Killionaire wrote:
Are we surprised really?

Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.

And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.

From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...

Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.

Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.

When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.

Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.

But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!

Look. I dislike Romeo's behavior as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend that most of the "criticism" was valid.

Statements which could be summed up as "Romeo's a moron/doesn't know what he's talking about/etc, why don't Tom and Kip just shut him up so that they can actually be interesting?" aren't what I would deem to be "criticism".
It's being a jerk to someone and expecting them to just take it on the chin, because hey "criticism".

I have to be honest.. in amongst all of the comments I have read, yours is pretty much the only one that has taken this viewpoint.

You know Kan.. you don't always have to be contrary, sometimes it's OK to go with the majority consensus on something when recognising what is or isn't acceptable?

Romeo saying that stuff (other than the obvious entertainment factor it provided) simply wasn't acceptable, in the context of what were after-all just some (fairly mild, from what I remember) comments on a forum - and he deserves to lose customers over it.

robertsjf wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Yea, but it is a DJ action. Battlefoam threatened legal action, and Mr. Hayden filed for declaratory judgment, which I suspect will be granted. It is a put-up-or-shut-up sort of thing. You threaten to sue me, I go to the court and say that you have no basis to file a lawsuit against me. If the Court finds that you don't, you can't follow through on your threat.

It may be technically true that Mr. Hayden filed the complaint, but it is an entirely appropriate response to Battlefoam's Cease and Desist letter, which threatened legal action. You can't threaten a lawsuit without having a legitimate basis to do so. That's why sending out a bunch of C&D letters is not always a good idea...

weeble1000, why do I feel like we dakkanaughts owe you a retainer? Where should I send my portion?

Sean_Obrien, Czakk, Polonius, and Janthkin deserve it more than I do, just off the top of my head. Sean in particular does a lot of rounding up of information in addition to stating his views. That takes a lot of effort.

I did see the article in question and it was just the usual vitriol.

I have met Romeo on numerous occasions on his travels to the UK and he is genuinely a great gamer, hobbiest and businessman. I consider him a mate so I'm likely to stick up for him but to be frank whether you like his product (BattleFoam is the best product on the market for the record and if you have custom models then just get custom foam) or not he's a nice guy and all I would say is unless you have met him and had a beer with him don't bother trying to assassinate his character.

I think losing some hate from the gaming fraternity can only be a good thing. Good bye Blood of Kittens I wonder if you will be missed... Nah.

..Hi Romeo?

I don't really think the character needs to be assassinated. One's own words and actions tends to do it without outside help.

This is sort of a trend, which is why I'm cynically looking at any 'new registry' that solely exists to bump up stuff related to battlefoam.

I mean. It's what happened on the Infinity Thread, where he (very obviously) created a new account to post (and was caught at it), as well as several cases on Dakka, when trying to plug Wild West Exodus.

Hi Romeo being my first thought too. Random new account popping up saying "Ok I just happen to know him, and Romeo is a cool guy. Like seriously hes smart handsome and the best person ever and and " It's like something out of a bad cartoon.

 Pacific wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Killionaire wrote:
Are we surprised really?

Battlefoam's sued two or three other foam manufacturers before, on grounds that the Judges have not only thrown out as frivilous, but also so outrageously stupid that they told Battlefoam to 'have sober reflection' on what they've done and tried to do.

And hell. Romeo did threaten to physically hunt down harm myself and other members of the Infinity Community for criticizing statements he made in a podcast.

From: Battle Foam
Title: You can hide, but not forever...

Hey clown, I'll tell you this one time and one time only. I will find out who you are and we will handle this like men. Not only are you full of gak and causing drama in all kinds of place but you have no fething clue who I am and what I am capable of doing.

Do me the biggest favor and tell me who you are. Tell me what your name is and what part of the world you live in. I'm guessing you'll continue to hide on forums and trash talk me.

When I find out who you are, and I will we will take care of this. I promise you that. You have pushed this to far and you are now my new hobby.

Tick, tick, tick, your time is coming.

But hey, guess physical threats of violence are alright, but speaking truthfully about bad business practices results in lawsuits. Way to keep it classy, fellows!

Look. I dislike Romeo's behavior as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend that most of the "criticism" was valid.

Statements which could be summed up as "Romeo's a moron/doesn't know what he's talking about/etc, why don't Tom and Kip just shut him up so that they can actually be interesting?" aren't what I would deem to be "criticism".
It's being a jerk to someone and expecting them to just take it on the chin, because hey "criticism".

I have to be honest.. in amongst all of the comments I have read, yours is pretty much the only one that has taken this viewpoint.

You know Kan.. you don't always have to be contrary, sometimes it's OK to go with the majority consensus on something when recognising what is or isn't acceptable?

Romeo saying that stuff (other than the obvious entertainment factor it provided) simply wasn't acceptable, in the context of what were after-all just some (fairly mild, from what I remember) comments on a forum - and he deserves to lose customers over it.

They were not "fairly mild" comments. I read the thread before it got deleted by the forum moderation team over at the Official Infinity Forums.

And really. Please read what I am posting here. I'm not defending Romeo, but he was not really the only one involved in that whole debacle.


I'm gonna bow out of this thread I think. I don't want to drag it off-topic any more than I already did.

Last time it was the Outlaw Kickstarter sockpuppets, and now they're again emerging from the metaphorical woodwork. Seriously, where does Romeo get these guys?

MickeyP2K wrote:
I did see the article in question and it was just the usual vitriol.

I have met Romeo on numerous occasions on his travels to the UK and he is genuinely a great gamer, hobbiest and businessman. I consider him a mate so I'm likely to stick up for him but to be frank whether you like his product (BattleFoam is the best product on the market for the record and if you have custom models then just get custom foam) or not he's a nice guy and all I would say is unless you have met him and had a beer with him don't bother trying to assassinate his character.

I think losing some hate from the gaming fraternity can only be a good thing. Good bye Blood of Kittens I wonder if you will be missed... Nah.