Ok. So assuming EVERY legion were able to join in the assualt/defense of Terra do you think it would have made a difference in the outcome? Perhaps more Primarchs dead, the Emperor not being interred into the golden throne? Sanguinis living? And then I also want to see some speculation as to which legions on which side would have made a bigger effect on the outcome. Iron Warriors being Loyalists and Imperial Fists traitors? World Eaters staying loyal and maybe the Thousand Sons turning to Chaos without the Wolves attacking them? I want to stimulate minds and engage in an in depth conversation that explains intelligently who would do what, and why (Or why not for that matter) it may have helped. Even if it involves Sanguinis being the arch traitor instead of Horus. SPECULATE!
IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...
+ If SW and TS were not bickering, their combined forces would would kick Horus so hard that the Empy wouldn't have to left the chair.....
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
DarthMarko wrote: IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...
Nah the IF is the reason of why the HH ended in defeat. Their defensive genius is the sole reason as it enabled a mere Imperial Guardsman to go on equal footing with Superman.
The fact the Ultramarines couldn't make it to the party is one of the reasons you still see Chaos Marines today. Size-wise, I'd give the advantage to the loyalists, solely because of the Ultras.
DarthMarko wrote: IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...
+ If SW and TS were not bickering, their combined forces would would kick Horus so hard that the Empy wouldn't have to left the chair.....
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them. lol
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TheDiscoSpider wrote: The fact the Ultramarines couldn't make it to the party is one of the reasons you still see Chaos Marines today. Size-wise, I'd give the advantage to the loyalists, solely because of the Ultras.
The Ultramarines may have made a HUGE difference, but I think that just would have been offset by the Alpha Legion. Alpharius would know Gulliman would be the biggest threat initially, and would have done very subtle things to sap his army or even his legions morale itself. I think that is one of the biggest disadvantages the Ultramrines have. Gulliman is inside the box, where as Alpha Legion is outside of it. Gulliman follows war as it "should" be while Alpharius makes his own rules.
DarthMarko wrote: IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...
Nah the IF is the reason of why the HH ended in defeat. Their defensive genius is the sole reason as it enabled a mere Imperial Guardsman to go on equal footing with Superman.
I'm not sure. that decision would require ALOT of analysis. While Dorn is a genius so was Perturabo. Yes Dorn focused on Defense while Perturabo was all out offense, they were quite a few IW who were very defense oriented. I'm not sure it the poster before is referring to the one that made the underground castle structure (I forget which book. one of the short stories) He defended his structure with VERY few men compared to the traitor IW. his fortress stood up months against Titans, air strikes, and raids that drove deeper and deeper. yet every time he had the perfect defense, a tertiary plan to his secondary plan. and in the end gave them all the finger by dropping it straight into lava. HE could have made a huge difference alone I'm sure.
As far as legions staying loyal it would've been the Word Bearers that would've had the greatest impact. The 2nd largest legion that is also are fanatically loyal would've ended the thing very quickly.
With Horus at the head of the traitors there isn’t much room for the big guys like Sanguinis , Dorn or the Lion in the mix. Horus doesn't seem to be the sharing type and would've come to blows or downright eliminated them as competitors. Horus has a following of the more downtrodden primarchs who seem more willing to just fulfill a role rather than be the guy in charge. This leads me to believe Horus would've only accepted one of the loyalists who were out of the limelight more like Vulcan or the Khan. While still powerful they don't have the numbers or the personality of someone like Dorn, Gulliman, The Lion or Sanguinis to affect things that greatly. I know this’ll probably start a who’s primarch is better discussion but this is just my opinion.
eviltrout wrote: As far as legions staying loyal it would've been the Word Bearers that would've had the greatest impact. The 2nd largest legion that is also are fanatically loyal would've ended the thing very quickly.
With Horus at the head of the traitors there isn’t much room for the big guys like Sanguinis , Dorn or the Lion in the mix. Horus doesn't seem to be the sharing type and would've come to blows or downright eliminated them as competitors. Horus has a following of the more downtrodden primarchs who seem more willing to just fulfill a role rather than be the guy in charge. This leads me to believe Horus would've only accepted one of the loyalists who were out of the limelight more like Vulcan or the Khan. While still powerful they don't have the numbers or the personality of someone like Dorn, Gulliman, The Lion or Sanguinis to affect things that greatly. I know this’ll probably start a who’s primarch is better discussion but this is just my opinion.
Oh yeah! Well my primarch is better than yours! lol. jk. I like your points though. In Fear to Tread it's pretty much agreed on that Horus would never share the limelight. Chaos was busy trying to win over Sanguinis using the Red Thirst, while Horus wanted him dead (Also because it was alluded to the fact that Sanguinis may have become Chaos's new champion were he able to be corrupted) but like I said. it's all a what if scenario. if the Word Bearers were still loyal then yes. they would have put their EVERYTHING into that fight. Their zeal would be unmatched even against superior enemies.
In audio "Warmaster" Horus basically contemplates (read : bitches) about how could he use Bobby G ( if he had him ) or any of the loyalist primarchs...He even calls Perturabo a degenerate IIRC:-) and would trade Corax for Alpharious...
But the fun part of audio is how narrator pronounces Roboute: "Row - bu - teey..."
Seems like Horus ended with wrong crowd and he was pretty pissed because of that....
The Lion seems to be the only loyalist that would've even considered switching sides. He probably wouldn't have fared to well with his personality though. All the other loyal primarchs seem pretty set in their ways and would stay loyal.
The title of this thread should be “What if the Emperor hadn't be a complete moron", because the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons could have all been kept loyal without much action taken. The Word Bearers by accepting that he is a god, which ended up happening anyways. The Thousand Sons by trusting Magnus, who seemed to be the most loyal, until the emperor sent Russ after him, and the Iron Warriors by just paying attention to them and giving them something other than the crap jobs.
Horus seems to get the primarchs that don't have any skills beyond killing things it seems. Although the loyalists have a few just killers the others have skills that would've been useful at the end of the crusade when things need to be managed and run. Magnus and Lorgar are the exception for the traitors.
If Russ had refused to allow Horus to override direct Imperial orders, then the Heresy's course would have changed drastically. The Thousand Sons and the Wolves on Terra; it would have derailed everything, as sheer proximity to the Emperor (who would have probably imposed a subconscious block/influence on the Thousand Sons upon arrival on Terra to ensure their powers would not be influenced by Tzeentch) would probably have overturned Tzeentch's hand on the former (plus with the gene-labs so close, the defects in their gene-seed might have been solved right then and there). As for the latter being on Terra...two words: the Rout.
It would also have ensured the Imperial Webway's completion. Assuming the Imperial Webway being completed, and Magnus and Russ reconciled (given the former had apparently seen the error of his ways) would have been back-to-back badasses.
EDIT: If Tzeentch's hold on the Thousand Sons is so absolute, why would Horus fear them as the 'Emperor's sorcerers'? Because its not absolute.
Guilliman rated Dorn, Sanguinius, Leman Russ, and Ferrus Manus. He referred to them as "the dauntless few", and pronounced that he could win any war, outright, if he had those four and their Legions at his side.
If every legion was at Terra then the loyalists would have one. Why? At the battle of Terra there were, wait for it, 3 loyalist legions, plus Custodes, one and a half million soldiers of the Imperial Army and 3 Titan Legions. Horus had nine Traitor Legions, plus Dark Mechanicus Titans, traitor Imperial Army units and lots and lots of Deamons. When Horus found out that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarines were on their way, he knew he had to end it quickly, thus lowering the shields on his ship, the Emperor teleported over and the rest, as they say, is history. Imperial Palace was too well fortified for Horus to take if there were more loyalists there, that's why he had the Ultras attacked at Calth, the Alpha Legion were supposed to delay the Space Wolves and the rest were isolated by warp storms. To recap: Horus had essentially nine legions, minus the Word Bearers at Calth, etc. He was fighting the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars on Terra. He knew he would lose if the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines reached Terra in time, that would make it 6 loyalists to 9 traitor legions. The Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands were rendered ineffective at Istvaan. So yeah., if they were all at Terra, Horus would have lost.
Magnus, warns the Emperor through less illegal means. The seals on the webway are never broken. The Emperor leads the counter attack against Horus' forces. The Heresy never even makes it to Terra.
Roboute wonders whether the events at Nikaea were just one step in what was now looking like a much larger plan. He said that without the Librarius they had been stripped of their protection against this new enemy (Chaos!) therefore would have been a massive bonus having The Thousand Sons stay Loyal
I reckon if it were a straight up loyalists vs traitors, the loyals would win. The fortress of Terra stod up against the full force of the Iron Warriors, World Eaters (including Daemon-mode Angron), Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Daemons, with only the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars to defend them.
If the Ultramarines had have joined it would seriously tip the scales, though the joining of Alpha Legion as a reult would reduce that. If the Dark Angels had have come, along with their Death Guard foes, it would realign the scales.
However, the loyalists were down 3 Legions (Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders) and Ferrus Manus, and Horus and Angron were on completely new levels.
If the Wolves had have joined however it would be something different. They might actually tip the scales slightly in favour.
However, the reason I say Loyals win is because even Horus was afraid of the reinforcements. He knew he would be defeated, and needed a solution. So he lowered his ship's shields, the Emeporer teleports onboard, blah blah blah.
I discount the Titans and humans because they were equally matched as far as this discussion goes
Deadshot wrote: I reckon if it were a straight up loyalists vs traitors, the loyals would win. The fortress of Terra stod up against the full force of the Iron Warriors, World Eaters (including Daemon-mode Angron), Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Daemons, with only the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars to defend them.
If the Ultramarines had have joined it would seriously tip the scales, though the joining of Alpha Legion as a reult would reduce that. If the Dark Angels had have come, along with their Death Guard foes, it would realign the scales.
However, the loyalists were down 3 Legions (Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders) and Ferrus Manus, and Horus and Angron were on completely new levels.
If the Wolves had have joined however it would be something different. They might actually tip the scales slightly in favour.
However, the reason I say Loyals win is because even Horus was afraid of the reinforcements. He knew he would be defeated, and needed a solution. So he lowered his ship's shields, the Emeporer teleports onboard, blah blah blah.
I discount the Titans and humans because they were equally matched as far as this discussion goes
Yeah. screw the Imp guard and mechanicum. lol
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eviltrout wrote: The Lion seems to be the only loyalist that would've even considered switching sides. He probably wouldn't have fared to well with his personality though. All the other loyal primarchs seem pretty set in their ways and would stay loyal.
The title of this thread should be “What if the Emperor hadn't be a complete moron", because the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons could have all been kept loyal without much action taken. The Word Bearers by accepting that he is a god, which ended up happening anyways. The Thousand Sons by trusting Magnus, who seemed to be the most loyal, until the emperor sent Russ after him, and the Iron Warriors by just paying attention to them and giving them something other than the crap jobs.
Horus seems to get the primarchs that don't have any skills beyond killing things it seems. Although the loyalists have a few just killers the others have skills that would've been useful at the end of the crusade when things need to be managed and run. Magnus and Lorgar are the exception for the traitors.
They make it look like the Lion woul dhave switched but one of the short story books (Can't remember which one) absolves him of that. Curze taunts him saying "what will history think? The Primarch who didn't make it. was he contemplating switching sides?" To which the Lion pretty much tells him he doesn't care what history thinks and to feth off. lol (Yes I'm a little bit of a Dark Angels fanboy)
I think that the Raven Guard would have been the deciding factor, personally. I think that their stealth tactics would have been key in bringing home a victory for the loyalist forces. (Since we are assuming the Isstvan massacres never happened, and I'm under the impression that without those early victories, Horus would have been smashed utterly by the time he got to Terra.)
I don't know about Raven Guard being the deciding factor. If all 9 loyalists were there as well as all 9 traitors (and Isstvan Massacre never happened, yada yada), I'd imagine that the Night Lords would be able to possibly pull off a deadlock, which would be perhaps almost certain with possibly the assistance of the Alpha Legion.
I don't see how it could be anyone but the Ultramarines. Many like to hate on them, but the Legion was over twice the size of an 'average' Legion, whilst their Primarch was at least (if not more so IMHO) as good a tactician as the others.
To go off Jimsolo's example; the Ultramarines are over 3 times the size of the Raven Guard - that's huge.
I'm going to echo and say the Ultramarines. Even Horus knew that they'd be a headache during the siege of Terra if he hadn't tied them up beforehand. There was just so many of the blue boys.
If isstvan never happened I think luther would have remained loyal. The full da legion will then have gone to get that machine that lets them do precision warp jumps journeyed to terra emerged from the warp in terras orbit cut through the traitor fleet like a knife through butter made planetfall brought terror to the night lords the lion would kill curze. The da would make the difference the lion and luther would be unstoppable.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: If isstvan never happened I think luther would have remained loyal. The full da legion will then have gone to get that machine that lets them do precision warp jumps journeyed to terra emerged from the warp in terras orbit cut through the traitor fleet like a knife through butter made planetfall brought terror to the night lords the lion would kill curze. The da would make the difference the lion and luther would be unstoppable.
I definitely believe the Lion would have remained faithful to the big E regardless of his other flaws.
Luther though had deteriorated mentally and emotionally independent of the events on Istvaan so that ship had sailed already. You had the whole civil war thing on Caliban regardless of Istvaan. Also, the Lion had been ignoring Luther for decades so they were not exactly the super team of Batman and Robin anymore, nor could they become it again.
The Ultramarines may have made a HUGE difference, but I think that just would have been offset by the Alpha Legion. Alpharius would know Gulliman would be the biggest threat initially, and would have done very subtle things to sap his army or even his legions morale itself. I think that is one of the biggest disadvantages the Ultramrines have. Gulliman is inside the box, where as Alpha Legion is outside of it. Gulliman follows war as it "should" be while Alpharius makes his own rules.
I hear this alot, I try to refute it every time.
I really don't understand why people think that just because Gulliman wrote the codex he seems incapable of thinking outside the box. Lets go with what we know, first up, the man was an absolute genius, and this has never been in contention. Not as given to rage or childishness to many of his brothers, logical, tactically brilliant, sensible, circumspect, why on earth wouldnt he think outside the box if needs be?
I can do that, and I'm merely intelligent.
Seriously, the Israelis wrote the book on tactical training for combating suicide bombers. I've read it, I've absorbed it, I had to do so much bloody OPTAG training before all of my tours of Iraq and Afghanistan I can never forget it. Inappropriate clothing, A robotic walk, irritability, sweating, tics, nervous behavior, freshly shaved, mumbled prayers... Its all right there, but do I still listen to my gut and ignore it all if needs be? Sure I do.
Al-Qaeda read it as well. Warfare out in Ganners with civvies everywhere became like a giant game of scissor paper rock. The Taliban knew what we looked for cars with low suspension for IEDs, so they stopped loading them up so heavily, they knew we looked for freshly shaved guys, so they started keeping their beards, or they sent a child pushing an IED in a wheelbarrow and he blew two of my buddies out of their boots.
Its a big game of bluff, or double bluff, or triple bluff, such is war. Writing a big ass book doesn't mean you won't ignore the book. It just means you are a clever bastard in the first place. All militaries have big ass books with tactics in, they aren't like the bible.
Gulliman also mentioned ignoring it personally. As does Titus in SM, as does Uriel Ventris.
Personally, I would happily wager a bet on Guilliman against any of the Primarchs, he is the ultimate all rounder, plus his combat prowess is hugely underrated, he does pretty good against both Angron and Lorgar, and did he not (possibly) kill Alpharius anyway? Precisely because he did what the Primarch of the Alpha Legion didn't expect? The UM then were pushed back because the Legion to their credit didn't crumble, but that initial spear thrust was performed because Guilliman entirely abandoned the codex, something he would clearly do if he thought it would make sense during a skirmish.
As any mortal soldier would. Follow the rules, don't follow the rules, whatever you think it takes to win.
Point is, a guy who tries that hard has got to be bad-ass. Studious, professional, not given to rage like many of his brothers, and rage means mistakes. Not given to petulant tempers, just quiet and calm and professional, the consummate soldier.
If you haven't guessed, from reading all of the HH books, I have decided he is easily my favourite primarch. He is one of the few (maybe with Sanguinius, Vulcan, Corax) who actually seems a really nice bloke as well, good to his men, humble. I worked for many more arrogant and haughty officers, and none of them were walking Gods like Robutte.
Had Istvaan not happened and it turned into a straight fight on Terra then the shock tactics would probably go to Horus, Dorn wouldn't have time to put up such a great defence and the Iron Warriors would trash it anyway. But on the flip side with the hit and run tactics of both Corax and Khan with backup from the remaining loyalists then Chaos would be on the back foot. I doubt Horus would be able to keep Angron on a leash and the Emperor would put him down quickly. Magnus and the Iron Warriors would be the biggest problems for the Imperial defence.
Istvaan had to happen, the traitor legions at Istvaan III had lost roughly 50% of their strength through the protracted fight to destroy the loyalist elements.
Horus was trying to balance the scales, thank the Emperor in the end it failed.
Endriu Death Coy wrote: Istvaan had to happen, the traitor legions at Istvaan III had lost roughly 50% of their strength through the protracted fight to destroy the loyalist elements.
Horus was trying to balance the scales, thank the Emperor in the end it failed.
This.
People often mistake the story as 9 full legions versus 9 full legions. But the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children purged large, large amounts of their forces on Istvaan III and lost more in the fighting. Without Istvaan IV, Horus would have been at a numerical and strategic disadvantage more than he already was. Indeed, much of the seven years prior to the landings on earth were to try to take the loyalist legions out of the fight to even the odds.
Loyalist Casualties and Conflicts:
Dark Angels: Tied up by the Night Lords to no avail and were well sized at the time of the siege of earth (SoE). Space Wolves: Already a smallish legion and sent to deal with Magnus but seemed to have come out of it in okay fihgting strength for its size. Blood Angels: A large legion that had to be tied up in the Signus cluster and still survived at large strength for the SoE. Iron Hands: The elite leadership and primarch were killed on Istvaan III but much of the legion was not present and thus survived to harass the traitors in groups. Salamanders: Virtually annihilated on Istvaan V and already a small legion. Raven Guard: Virtually annihilated on Istvaan V. Ultramarines: Largest legion that lost a 1/3 of it's fighting strength at Calth (and most of its fleet), but even after the event was still the largest legion. White Scars: Tied up by Alpha Legion but as far as story goes was still at or near full strength as of the SoE. Imperial Fists: Lost much of the retribution force at Phall but also damaged the Iron Warriors heavily. Much of their force still on Terra and survived.
* So in sum even after the conflicts Horus had to contend with nearly full sized or battle ready legions of 7 (arguably 6 if the Iron Hands were truly useless) of the 9 legions by the time of the SoE. Lets look at the traitors.
Traitor Casualties and Conflicts:
Sons of Horus: Lost a good part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III. Death Guard: Lost a large part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III. World Eaters: Lost a large part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III. Emperor's Children: Lost a large part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III. Alpha Legion: Seems to have been in good fighting strength as of the SoE. Thousand Sons: Devastated on Prospero. Night Lords: Lost a good part of their legion to their battles with the Dark Angels. Iron Warriors: Seem to have been in good fighting strength as of the time of the SoE less the battle of Phall losses which may or may not have significant. Word Bearers: Lost a significant part of their legion in the failed attack on Calth.
* Other than the Thousand Sons, Horus had only seemingly 2 legions with full or near full battle strength with the rest capable (not trying to diminish that) but significantly depleted. Indeed, this doesn't take into account any purges that the other 5 traitor legions might have performed. This gives Horus 8 legions of the 9 that are functional but all but 2 (maybe not even that) are very depleted.
What this means, at least for the story, was that time was against Horus as his rebellion had fewer troops to call on. Istvaan III was likely a foolish endeavor in terms of depleting their forces and only the victory on Istvaan V could have even allowed the heresy to proceed with any sane measure of success.
In specific reference to this thread, I think the word bearers could have decided it for the traitors if they had won at calth. As the largest traitor force they had the best opportunity to tip the scales as by taking out the UMs they could have focused on taking out another legion, such as the DAs and possibly changed the balance.
If he kept the Night Lords and Iron Warriors in his good graces. The Iron Warriors would have defended his palace and the Night Lords would have waged the Guerrilla war Corax wanted.
The Battle of Terra and the assault on the Imperial Palace was more about an all out assault than it was a traditional fight (from everything I've seen and read of the battle). So the subtlety of the Alpha Legion or the stealth of the Raven Guard ect. ect. wouldn't have really mattered. What mattered most was numbers. More men for the meat grinder.
The Battle of Terra and the assault on the Imperial Palace was more about an all out assault than it was a traditional fight (from everything I've seen and read of the battle). So the subtlety of the Alpha Legion or the stealth of the Raven Guard ect. ect. wouldn't have really mattered. What mattered most was numbers. More men for the meat grinder.
Traitors had Daemons. Infinite numbers of daemons IIRC. Or at least, the Word Bearers had.
I was answering about the battle of Terra and the powers of the hypocrites known as the Space Wolves could have won Empy the battle, but then again they were away trying to butcher the Thousand Sons.
Yeah because they would have closed the gates of demons pouring in. It's logical by subtraction. I must admit the Ultras was second to me, but the Space Wolves had the power to power down the gates that gated in demons.
And since when have I been anything but respectful to you JustDave?
@Dave if you belive Hawser's deamonic visions I would say yes...They would be perfect fe for taking down a primarch - but all around UM are more useful IMHO....
Spoiler:
‘I am clearing the board for the game to
come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my
ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the
only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the
only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The
Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up
a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging
events to turn them upon each other.’
On the other hand sheer number of UM on Terra would be awesome...
Angron would die from happines :-)
Beaviz81 wrote: Yeah because they would have closed the gates of demons pouring in. It's logical by subtraction. I must admit the Ultras was second to me, but the Space Wolves had the power to power down the gates that gated in demons.
And since when have I been anything but respectful to you JustDave?
So are you saying that, through their continued use of psykers, the Wolves would've been the greater asset?
Not a bad thought. Certainly hard to argue against (assuming they'd get away with it), but as to whether its superior to a Legion approximately three times their size? Personally, I'd say not.
The Space Wolves are a clear case of the hypocrite is right, and as mentioned I said they could have closed the demon gates, nothing more nothing less. They would have hindered Chaos gaining the foothold on Terra as they are known to be spanners in the works since they were operational, Empy himself had them as his loyal attack-dog, and they tends towards being hypocrites.
I don't mind at all, why do you? They would be addition by subtraction. Nothing more nothing less.
Wait, how would they have been able to close the mess that Magnus made in the Imperial Webway? The Emperor was forced to stay on the Golden Throne to even manage to hold the hordes at bay as it was a matter of the psychic and physical structures having been irrevocably damaged and ruined. If the Emperor wasn't able to fix it by the time the traitors came to Terra how would the Wolves fare any better? It wasn't simply a matter of closing a few doors/gates it was having to repair entire tears and holes in their section of the Webway from which the Daemons spurted out from like blood coming out of a severed jugular vein. If it was as simple as just utilizing military might to close the gates then Imperial Fists/another legion should have been able to close it without fuss, especially if the Emperor rescinded the Edict of Nikea in this case for the Librarians to use their powers to "close it"; seeing how this didn't occur this is clearly not the case. Furthermore, if a powerful psyker like Malcador wasn't able to hold off the hordes of daemons but for a few hours before he died what would make the Wolves able to do it? If anything it's more likely the Wolves would give the loyalists the edge in terms of military prowess and ferocity to throw back and possibly reclaim several strategic points from the traitors.
Also I don't get how them being hypocrites has anything to do with them being able to seal off the Imperial Webway.
I don't understand how you made the conclusion that the Space Wolves would have closed all of chaos' warp gates and won the battle that way. Horus even said he was afraid of them because of their military prowess. If they could pose that much of a threat to his armies through magic, then why would Hours say they are a military threat, not the magic one?
Yeah...I've kind of gotten that vibe from him since the last time we talked about them. Though in a weird way he seems to be adamant in their defense as far as mutations/thunderwolf speculations go with him waving their codex as absolute truth (with no citations may I add) while completely disregarding the nature of the setting and other "canon" Horus Heresy/otherwise fluff.
Regardless, back on topic I think it's pretty clear that militarily it would likely be the Ultramarines (due to sheer numbers and Roboute's ability to manage the defenses alongside the other Primarchs) or the Thousand Sons potentially to be honest. Because if they were still in the game as loyalists not only would Magnus be sitting on the Golden Throne holding the daemons at bay (if they were managed to be taken in properly as planned with little fuss from Russ/Horus assuming Magnus had still wrecked the Imperial Webway) which would allow the Emperor to actually be proactive in his defense beyond Terra but also give the crucial psychic/sorcery needed to combat the warp-based foes that Horus and the Word Bearers in particular deployed from previous sacrificial rituals. Their ensured loyalty by extension also means the Wolves would be freed up to defend Terra as well, setting up the very scenario that Horus dreaded facing. This also of course likely includes the Emperor somehow circumventing their flesh change/pact with Tzzentch in some way (soul binding, etc. to get rid of corruptive tutelaries) and even in the case where this doesn't happen I could still see the Thousand Sons wreaking havoc among the foe while succumbing to the flesh change before they are consumed with power.
I don't think (or at least I hope not) he's referring to them closing the webway, but rather any rifts etc. that spring up during the siege, and generally just fighting Daemons.
The Emperor practically can't do anything about the webway it seems: the wolves wouldn't make much of a difference with this.
But having psykers is a truly valuable asset, but then, under the OP's stipulations, the loyalists could just have the Thousand Sons instead: who would clearly be superior. And even then, would the Thousand Sons be a better asset than 25 times as many Ultramarines? I'd say no, again, myself.
I think labelling Space Wolves repeatedly as hypocrites is just @Beaviz81's way of showing that he REALLY doesn't like the Space Wolves.
I actually do like them. It's just that in this case the hypocrite is right. It's in the well-known god is not nice territory which so many guys in the IOM falls under.
The Space Wolves Rune Priests seems to have a purer connection to the warp, where as the rest doesn't have that purity. And I also reffed to the TT-fact that they can do anti-psychic-things to other guys. You know the 3+ thingy against other psykers.
Seeing a full Iron Hands legion and primarch at the siege of terra would have been interesting, as their primarchs way of war is woefully underdeveloped
Just Dave wrote: I don't think (or at least I hope not) he's referring to them closing the webway, but rather any rifts etc. that spring up during the siege, and generally just fighting Daemons.
The Emperor practically can't do anything about the webway it seems: the wolves wouldn't make much of a difference with this.
But having psykers is a truly valuable asset, but then, under the OP's stipulations, the loyalists could just have the Thousand Sons instead: who would clearly be superior. And even then, would the Thousand Sons be a better asset than 25 times as many Ultramarines? I'd say no, again, myself.
The rift idea is spot on along with that the Space Wolves seems to have been created to curtail other Space Marine-chapters and to be able to banish any demons, which can't be denied would be a tremendous asset for the siege. Even so the best asset was on Empy's side the unbreakable and dour Imperial Fists the ultimate defenders in this dark galaxy.
But then again having the mighty jack of all trades the Ultramarines there would be good, as they do good in all situations of any battlefield and they have the manpower to one-up the traitors.
Assuming everything elses happend as in cannon and we can only change one thing, id have to say the ultras showing up would have done the damage.
As has been mentioned even after the fight a calath they were still by far the biggest legion, and you need to remeber back then a legion wasnt just the marines each chapter (pre heresey chapter ie company equivialnt) had several imperial army regiments assigned to them so for every extra 1000 marines you have several thousand normal troops plus associated ordinace.
On top of that from alot of the HH short storys and such we see ultramarines picking up loyalist comands from the traitor legions further bolstering the numbers but more importantly bringing with them there chapters ways of war.
i dont care how many deomns you have if the sky turns blue and starts raining smurfs and leman russ battle tanks your screwed
Just Dave wrote: I don't think (or at least I hope not) he's referring to them closing the webway, but rather any rifts etc. that spring up during the siege, and generally just fighting Daemons.
The Emperor practically can't do anything about the webway it seems: the wolves wouldn't make much of a difference with this.
But having psykers is a truly valuable asset, but then, under the OP's stipulations, the loyalists could just have the Thousand Sons instead: who would clearly be superior. And even then, would the Thousand Sons be a better asset than 25 times as many Ultramarines? I'd say no, again, myself.
The rift idea is spot on along with that the Space Wolves seems to have been created to curtail other Space Marine-chapters and to be able to banish any demons, which can't be denied would be a tremendous asset for the siege. Even so the best asset was on Empy's side the unbreakable and dour Imperial Fists the ultimate defenders in this dark galaxy.
But then again having the mighty jack of all trades the Ultramarines there would be good, as they do good in all situations of any battlefield and they have the manpower to one-up the traitors.
How exactly would the Space Wolves be able to seal any warp rifts simply by being there? I can see Russ having anti-psyker ability but by and large the Legion itself is not made of blanks/pariahs so I don't understand where you're getting the idea that they have innate anti-Daemon abilities. At most their innate faith in their talismans/fetishes might give them some sort of resistance to psychic attacks but as "A Thousand Sons" demonstrates on Shrike they are just as vulnerable to any other marine to direct psychic attacks/abilities and this false idea of their anti-daemon prowess is further shown when they attacked Prospero. If they were so anti-daemonic/psychic they wouldn't have to had to bring Sisters of Silence to provide an edge against the Thousand Sons psychic abilities. Further evidence they don't simply have anti-daemonic powers ala Grey Knights is how they weren't able to do anything on Signus Prime when the Blood Angels were ambushed by Ka'Bandha and Kyriss in the HH novel "Fear to Tread"; yes they were a small contingent but according to you they would have been able to waltz through most of the daemonic hordes and promptly banish the greater daemon that even Sanguinis had trouble dealing with...of course that never happened and they instead got torn to shreds by Blood Angels who went mad from the Black Rage unlocked from Ka'Bandha slaughter of the Blood Angels.
Could you provide some sources of them being able to banish any daemons? And to be a bit clear, no, runic weapons/tabletop rules don't really count considering that rules don't necessarily translate well into fluff. (Even then it's one special rule versus the plethora of specific rules the GK have against them so I don't necessarily think that one "anti-daemon" weapon is sufficient enough to say the entire Space Wolf legion was anti-daemonic as an army in any real sense).
Beaviz81 wrote: I'm pointing to that the Rune Priests could close rifts popping up as Just Dave mentioned. I actually considered the discussion finished tbh.
But where have they done that explicitly and easily in fluff better than any other Librarian/Imperial Psyker? Considering Malcador was able to rescind the Edict of Nikea for his Knights Errant group (including allowing Ultramarines Librarian Tylos Rubio to use his powers) I'm pretty sure they would have allowed the Librarians/psykers left on Terra to handle this problem. Furthermore, if this is the case then wouldn't the Thousand Sons be more effective than the Rune Priests given that the vast majority of their legion were psykers including Magnus who was second only to the Emperor himself in psychic mastery? Just Dave made the same conclusion/argument with which you didn't bother replying to as well as my previous arguments. The whole "purity" of the source of the Rune Priests power wouldn't matter much either given the fact that if the Thousand Sons had stayed loyal the Emperor would have most likely at some level stabilized or at least hindered the flesh change and possibly banish the tutelaries from screwing things up from his massive psychic presence like in "A Thousand Sons".
Again, providing some legitimate sources to back yourself up would be greatly appreciated just to prevent yourself from looking like you're hiding behind other people's arguments and deliberately avoiding hard evidence so you can prevent making your argument look weaker.
Rune Priests carry graven weapons covered from end to end in ancient runes that glow red-hot when power is channeled through them. It is with these runes that the psykers of the Space Wolves control and direct the fury of the elements. Rune Priests also carry talismans and totems with them, potent weapons against the powers of the Warp. With these tools it is the duty of the Rune Priest to banish the most terrifying of Daemons, those whoose hide is proof against the steel of lesser men. This and more the Rune Priests perform without hesitation or complaint. Such is their legend that many Space Wolves believe to fight alongside a Rune Priest is to witness the ancient sagas come to life.
Beaviz81 wrote:Here is the page-quote in the Space Wolves codex
Spoiler:
Rune Priests carry graven weapons covered from end to end in ancient runes that glow red-hot when power is channeled through them. It is with these runes that the psykers of the Space Wolves control and direct the fury of the elements. Rune Priests also carry talismans and totems with them, potent weapons against the powers of the Warp. With these tools it is the duty of the Rune Priest to banish the most terrifying of Daemons, those whoose hide is proof against the steel of lesser men. This and more the Rune Priests perform without hesitation or complaint. Such is their legend that many Space Wolves believe to fight alongside a Rune Priest is to witness the ancient sagas come to life.
Hopes you are happy.
Grimskul wrote: I don't necessarily think that one "anti-daemon" weapon is sufficient enough to say the entire Space Wolf legion was anti-daemonic as an army in any real sense).
Grimskul wrote:But where have they done that explicitly and easily in fluff better than any other Librarian/Imperial Psyker? Considering Malcador was able to rescind the Edict of Nikea for his Knights Errant group (including allowing Ultramarines Librarian Tylos Rubio to use his powers) I'm pretty sure they would have allowed the Librarians/psykers left on Terra to handle this problem. Furthermore, if this is the case then wouldn't the Thousand Sons be more effective than the Rune Priests given that the vast majority of their legion were psykers including Magnus who was second only to the Emperor himself in psychic mastery? Just Dave made the same conclusion/argument with which you didn't bother replying to as well as my previous arguments.
That's a good start but that still doesn't answer how the runic weapons are any more effective than normal force weapons (seeing as how both are effective weaponry against the beings of Chaos like Nemesis Force Weapons) besides the extra "propaganda" of the Rune Priest being expected to take Daemons which other Librarians (i.e. Mephiston taking down M'kar the Reborn) have also done.
You also still have to take into account how a handful of Rune Priests in comparison to the vast amounts of highly skilled sorcerers/psykers in the Thousand Sons ranks ala people like Ahriman/Magnus would not make these runic weapon defenses look paltry in comparison. Again there are only so many Rune Priests in the Space Wolf Legion whereas the Thousand Sons have at least 3 psykers or more for every one of them. The numbers game does not favour them nor have they shown greater psychic mastery or prowess than the Thousand Sons. Again, as previous people have said already, if Horus was worried about the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves defending the Emperor then why did he state that the Thousand Sons were the ones he feared for their witchcraft/sorcery and not the Space Wolves?
Can't you just flip open page 36 at the Space Wolves codex instead of playing contrary?
Spoiler:
Runic Weapon: Runic Weapons are the signature tools of the Rune Priests, often taking the form of staffs or wickedly bladed axes. Carved with protective sigils and canticles of banishment, the weapon affords excellent protection against the Warp. A Runic Weapon is a Force Weapon. Furthermore whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychich test within 24" of the bearer roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified. A runic weapon always wound Daemon models on the of a 2+. This special ability has no effect on vehicle models.
Beaviz81 wrote: Can't you just flip open page 36 at the Space Wolves codex instead of playing contrary?
Spoiler:
Runic Weapon: Runic Weapons are the signature tools of the Rune Priests, often taking the form of staffs or wickedly bladed axes. Carved with protective sigils and canticles of banishment, the weapon affords excellent protection against the Warp. A Runic Weapon is a Force Weapon. Furthermore whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychich test within 24" of the bearer roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified. A runic weapon always wound Daemon models on the of a 2+. This special ability has no effect on vehicle models.
Again rules don't necessarily transfer very well over into fluff. For example Guardsmen are S3 and Orks are S3, despite fluff saying that the muscle mass and strength of an Ork is typically much higher than an average human. However for the sake of simplicity and with the addition of furious charge this discrepancy in fluff is foregone for the sake of "balance". The limitations of the D6 system are shown through this because if this was shown in a more detailed way through dice with sides more than a D6 like a D10 or so then the humans would be at 3 while an Ork would be at a 3.5-4 and a Space Marine at a 4.5-5. Similarly, do you think Heavy Bolters actually only shoot a round of 3 shots? Of course not! The game is an abstract of the actual fluff so to use it as evidence in a fluff-based argument is like me using WoW game statistics (i.e. class stats and abilities in the current patch) as a determiner of which class is the best in combat in WoW in the realm of fluff, even though game stats doesn't carry over to fluff due to things like patches and game design/balance which doesn't accurately represent the fluff to its fullest extent. Because in that case the hunter would be the strongest class in fluff through a significant portion of the time of the expansion The Burning Crusade and that Rogues can actually turn transparent when they sneak around.
You also have to realize that this doesn't change the ultimate question as to how Rune Priests would be more adept than the Thousand Sons at defending Terra from the threats of the empyrean as both in terms of numbers and psychic expertise the Rune Priests are outmatched by them. And I have to bring up again how runic weapons in the long run would make any more significant difference against daemons than literal anti-warp beings like Pariahs (which they had to use against the Thousand Sons which already implies that the runic weaponry and its effectiveness are exaggerated by poorly written rules) through the previous examples that you have ignored such as the Space Wolf contingent that accompanied the Blood Angels to Signus Prime as well as no actual historical fight scenes where the Rune Priest used his runic weapon as a decisive tool to defeat something like a Greater Daemon, even Njal Stormcaller only defeated a Bloodthirster through normal psychic means (i.e. conjuring a blizzard/storm) rather than in close combat.
Assuming everything went normally I would say the attack on Terra would have been decided by the Imperial Fists going traitor. They would have been able to easily destroy the imperial palace as they made it. The Emperor wouldn't have been able to attack the vengeful spirit without the veterans. I just think they would have swayed it.
Really Grimskul, I think you could've just quoted me quoting you as a response (albeit with the tabletop =/= fluff mention)...
Just Dave wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:Here is the page-quote in the Space Wolves codex
Spoiler:
Rune Priests carry graven weapons covered from end to end in ancient runes that glow red-hot when power is channeled through them. It is with these runes that the psykers of the Space Wolves control and direct the fury of the elements. Rune Priests also carry talismans and totems with them, potent weapons against the powers of the Warp. With these tools it is the duty of the Rune Priest to banish the most terrifying of Daemons, those whoose hide is proof against the steel of lesser men. This and more the Rune Priests perform without hesitation or complaint. Such is their legend that many Space Wolves believe to fight alongside a Rune Priest is to witness the ancient sagas come to life.
Hopes you are happy.
Grimskul wrote: I don't necessarily think that one "anti-daemon" weapon is sufficient enough to say the entire Space Wolf legion was anti-daemonic as an army in any real sense).
Grimskul wrote:But where have they done that explicitly and easily in fluff better than any other Librarian/Imperial Psyker? Considering Malcador was able to rescind the Edict of Nikea for his Knights Errant group (including allowing Ultramarines Librarian Tylos Rubio to use his powers) I'm pretty sure they would have allowed the Librarians/psykers left on Terra to handle this problem. Furthermore, if this is the case then wouldn't the Thousand Sons be more effective than the Rune Priests given that the vast majority of their legion were psykers including Magnus who was second only to the Emperor himself in psychic mastery? Just Dave made the same conclusion/argument with which you didn't bother replying to as well as my previous arguments.
Emphasise mine.
Grimskul wrote:Pariahs (which they had to use against the Thousand Sons which already implies that the runic weaponry and its effectiveness are exaggerated by poorly written rules)
Although, regarding the use of the Sisters of Silence as a reflection of the Space Wolves abilities; I think it's a case of using the best weapons available and "better safe than sorry". The Space Wolves had/have a reputation for thoroughness, effeciency and even over-compensation, and I think the application of the Sisters of Silence is a reflection of this, rather than their own abilities.
Even IF the Space Wolves were superb anti-psykers/anti-daemons, why not bring the Sisters of Silence along to make sure the job gets done thoroughly, with minimum casualties and/or to make sure Magnus couldn't use any psychic mojo if apprehended?
As for the weapons, I guess the best way of dealing with demons should be artillery or air-strikes. Especially with the Greater ones, but that would make for not very cool fluff.
Skarbrand and his followers are approaching the Imperial line. "Fire on position Alpha-Lima-Foxtrot!" Churs the colonel into the vox. Next Skarbrand's red ass is banished back to the warp as two dozen Manticores hit him and his followers.
Simple
SW are good vs psykers - hell NO, they are just like any marine
SW are good vs chaos corruption - hell YES (*insert protective runes with their superstition and canix helix *)...
With Horus attacking Terra they would be perfect for s.w.a.t. missions (taking down a primarch, blowing up some crucial objects), pack going for the throat, like ADB said...For general defense I pick UM...
Just imagine if Russ and Magnus kissed and made peace...
Combined forces of TS and SW :
- Wolves single chanel bezerking, TS warping and hindering them magicaly + Russ and Magnus attacking Horus...
...bye, bye brightest star.....
I had actually already referenced you beforehand and because Beaviz didn't deign to provide a legitimate rebuttal to our similar mindset of how the Thousand Sons would have been a greater asset mystically/psyker wise than the Space Wolves. He ignored it so I had to repeat myself in a more semantic matter.
Also Beaviz, does this mean you concede? I don't really get what you mean by "Well I just posted it all".
Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:
DarthMarko wrote: I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’ I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully. ‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.
You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.
But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.
DarthMarko wrote: I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’ I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully. ‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.
You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.
But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.
Except, seemingly, Horus didn't say that: a Daemon did. He was getting all threats out of the way; same as what happened (or tried to happen) to almost every other Legion: such as the Ultramarines at Calth, the Blood Angels at Signus, etc. He didn't want any of them there, Blood Angels and White Scars included, not just the Space Wolves (and Thousand Sons).
Yes, the Space Wolves are bad-ass, of course they are. But are they any more potent psychically or against Daemons than other Librarians/Legions? I'd say no. Are they more of a military threat than a Legion that outnumbers them approximately three-to-one; the Ultramarines? Again, I'd say no.
Personally, I think the key thing for the Wolves isn't that they are any more of a threat than other Legions, but that they were unquestionably loyal and that Horus wouldn't be able to afford to have the Wolves get the drop on him, or fight him on their terms (moreso than most others IMHO).
DarthMarko wrote: I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.
You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.
But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.
Horus wasn't willing to tangle with those three, thats just how it turned out and he decided to attack anyways. In Fear to Tread it is obvious that Horus and the Chaos Gods see Sanguinius as a serious threat, which is why the Signus trap was designed specifically for him and his legion. On that note, if the Signus trap had succeeded either in destroying or turning Sanguinius then Chaos would have won at Terra. Regardless of what his legion adds to the party, Sanguinius himself was an absolute beast during the Siege and it would have turned out very differently had he not been there.
To be honest most people are going to find justification for their favorite legion to be the one that really made a difference, so take all of this with a grain of salt. In reality, any one of the legions changing sides would have been a huge factor.
DarthMarko wrote: I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.
You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.
But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.
Horus wasn't willing to tangle with those three, thats just how it turned out and he decided to attack anyways. In Fear to Tread it is obvious that Horus and the Chaos Gods see Sanguinius as a serious threat, which is why the Signus trap was designed specifically for him and his legion. On that note, if the Signus trap had succeeded either in destroying or turning Sanguinius then Chaos would have won at Terra. Regardless of what his legion adds to the party, Sanguinius himself was an absolute beast during the Siege and it would have turned out very differently had he not been there.
To be honest most people are going to find justification for their favorite legion to be the one that really made a difference, so take all of this with a grain of salt. In reality, any one of the legions changing sides would have been a huge factor.
This. But Sanguinius would have made an incredible difference.
DarthMarko wrote: I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.
You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.
But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.
Except, seemingly, Horus didn't say that: a Daemon did. He was getting all threats out of the way; same as what happened (or tried to happen) to almost every other Legion: such as the Ultramarines at Calth, the Blood Angels at Signus, etc. He didn't want any of them there, Blood Angels and White Scars included, not just the Space Wolves (and Thousand Sons).
Yes, the Space Wolves are bad-ass, of course they are. But are they any more potent psychically or against Daemons than other Librarians/Legions? I'd say no. Are they more of a military threat than a Legion that outnumbers them approximately three-to-one; the Ultramarines? Again, I'd say no.
Personally, I think the key thing for the Wolves isn't that they are any more of a threat than other Legions, but that they were unquestionably loyal and that Horus wouldn't be able to afford to have the Wolves get the drop on him, or fight him on their terms (moreso than most others IMHO).
Except you are missing the point...completely
Chaos (who pretty much controls Horus) directly intervened to clash SW and TS (insert Amon & Horus ) - so this vision of future Horus/deamon isn't really wrong.... and also this was after TS were out of the chess board...
Same thing about BA, except they wanted them on their side....
No, I nailed the point: they wanted every obstacle removed. The Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons, the Blood Angels, the Ultramarines, the White Scars, the Dark Angels...
Chaos intervened to stop the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, of course; just as they intervened with the Dark Angels, with the Ultramarines, with the Blood Angels.
The Space Wolves were not the only Legion that represented a genuine military threat. As I said, of course they're dangerous, but to suggest the White Scars or Ultramarines weren't military threats...?
DarthMarko wrote: I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.
You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.
But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.
Except, seemingly, Horus didn't say that: a Daemon did. He was getting all threats out of the way; same as what happened (or tried to happen) to almost every other Legion: such as the Ultramarines at Calth, the Blood Angels at Signus, etc. He didn't want any of them there, Blood Angels and White Scars included, not just the Space Wolves (and Thousand Sons).
Yes, the Space Wolves are bad-ass, of course they are. But are they any more potent psychically or against Daemons than other Librarians/Legions? I'd say no. Are they more of a military threat than a Legion that outnumbers them approximately three-to-one; the Ultramarines? Again, I'd say no.
Personally, I think the key thing for the Wolves isn't that they are any more of a threat than other Legions, but that they were unquestionably loyal and that Horus wouldn't be able to afford to have the Wolves get the drop on him, or fight him on their terms (moreso than most others IMHO).
Except you are missing the point...completely
SW are not UM - fact (but they can always try to be UM )...For overal battle (sector wise) UM would be great, while for taking down a target (fe: battle-barge, primarch) pack tactic is no.1....hands down...
Chaos (who pretty much controls Horus) directly intervened to clash SW and TS (insert Amon & Horus ) - so this vision of future Horus/deamon isn't really wrong.... and also this was after TS were out of the chess board...
Same thing about BA, except they wanted them on their side....
And Sanguinius was also crucial IMHO...If he had turned, Terra would be fethed...and maybe even Horus...
... and have seemingly reduced the idea of "genuine military threat" to only the ability to take down a specific target; something the Space Wolves are not alone in being able to do. The Ultramarines proved themselves capable of as much as Eskrador, the White Scars in taking the Lion's Gate Space Port, and the Blood Angels at Signus.
And even then, that doesn't represent the nature of a siege that the OP referred to, or the general concept of a "genuine military threat".
... and have seemingly reduced the idea of "genuine military threat" to only the ability to take down a specific target; something the Space Wolves are not alone in being able to do. The Ultramarines proved themselves capable of as much as Eskrador, the White Scars in taking the Lion's Gate Space Port, and the Blood Angels at Signus.
And even then, that doesn't represent the nature of a siege that the OP referred to, or the general concept of a "genuine military threat".
Yep - I messed them up pretty bad ...
on topic - I don't wanna sound like a fanboy (really), but wolves were really made specially for taking down a big boy (like ADB nicely put)...
If they were more like a UM (like generals) I wouldn't like them so much....Anyway my two cents on that....
Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...
... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway; for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too? And did I not just outline other Legions as being capable of doing the same?
AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.
Just Dave wrote: Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...
... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway (for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too?). AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.
NO..big fat NO...Don't even go there please.....That was Kharn's ranting....On FB he said that he supports them as Ex, just not the dumb anti astartes gene theory, rather pack tactics and loyalty (+insert a dog joke here+)....
Just Dave wrote: Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...
... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway (for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too?). AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.
NO..big fat NO...Don't even go there please.....That was Kharn's ranting....On FB he said that he supports them as Ex, just not the dumb anti astartes gene theory, rather pack tactics and loyalty (+insert a dog joke here+)....
His reference to the pack tactics was really only against the World Eaters though, as they were the only legion to not follow the "brotherhood" mentality of Astartes. That is the strength of the Astartes versus say, the Custodes. They train and fight alongside each other for decades, even centuries as brothers. The pack mentality really doesn't give any advantage over this.
Horus was a master tactician. He worked long and hard at spreading his brothers across the galaxy so they would not be in viable positions when his strike came.
While some legions were tied up with difficult tasks or seperated over multipule theaters he commanded the Ultramarines to head to the farthest reaches of the the farside of the galaxy.
I don't think their is any doubt as to who would destroy the traitors. The Ultramarines outnumbered all other legions combined... barring the Word Bearers.
The WBs were sent to stop the Ultras before they could regroup and... WIN. So Horus need the other largest legion to take the Ultras on.
The Ultras had to be taken by surprise, suggesting that the even the WBs with egual numbers was not a force capable of defeating the Ultras on even ground.
They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.
And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.
Just Dave wrote: Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...
... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway (for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too?). AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.
NO..big fat NO...Don't even go there please.....That was Kharn's ranting....On FB he said that he supports them as Ex, just not the dumb anti astartes gene theory, rather pack tactics and loyalty (+insert a dog joke here+)....
His reference to the pack tactics was really only against the World Eaters though, as they were the only legion to not follow the "brotherhood" mentality of Astartes. That is the strength of the Astartes versus say, the Custodes. They train and fight alongside each other for decades, even centuries as brothers. The pack mentality really doesn't give any advantage over this.
Tell that to Phosis T'kar who was toying with them :-) Kidding
But also agree with you, they are Emps personal body guards after all......
Also you have to see different portrayal of Custodians, I mean they are sometimes SM+1, and sometimes not....
They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.
And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.
???
DA and SW arival was imminent IIRC....
They even went toe to toe with traitors in the imperial palace...
DeffDred wrote: Horus was a master tactician. He worked long and hard at spreading his brothers across the galaxy so they would not be in viable positions when his strike came.
While some legions were tied up with difficult tasks or seperated over multipule theaters he commanded the Ultramarines to head to the farthest reaches of the the farside of the galaxy.
I don't think their is any doubt as to who would destroy the traitors. The Ultramarines outnumbered all other legions combined... barring the Word Bearers.
The WBs were sent to stop the Ultras before they could regroup and... WIN. So Horus need the other largest legion to take the Ultras on.
The Ultras had to be taken by surprise, suggesting that the even the WBs with egual numbers was not a force capable of defeating the Ultras on even ground.
They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.
And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.
True, but a change to the situation of any of the legions would have had a huge impact on the outcome. What if the White Scars didn't make it to Terra, leaving only the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels to hold against the Traitor Legions? What if the Salamanders escaped Isstvan and made it to Terra? No matter what legion we're talking about, any one of them could have tipped the balance either way.
DeffDred wrote: Horus was a master tactician. He worked long and hard at spreading his brothers across the galaxy so they would not be in viable positions when his strike came.
While some legions were tied up with difficult tasks or seperated over multipule theaters he commanded the Ultramarines to head to the farthest reaches of the the farside of the galaxy.
I don't think their is any doubt as to who would destroy the traitors. The Ultramarines outnumbered all other legions combined... barring the Word Bearers.
The WBs were sent to stop the Ultras before they could regroup and... WIN. So Horus need the other largest legion to take the Ultras on.
The Ultras had to be taken by surprise, suggesting that the even the WBs with egual numbers was not a force capable of defeating the Ultras on even ground.
They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.
And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.
True, but a change to the situation of any of the legions would have had a huge impact on the outcome. What if the White Scars didn't make it to Terra, leaving only the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels to hold against the Traitor Legions? What if the Salamanders escaped Isstvan and made it to Terra? No matter what legion we're talking about, any one of them could have tipped the balance either way.
Yes, but I was talking about what DID happen. Not a "what if". The Salamanders din't escape because they weren't a match for the traitor forces... even with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard to help.
The White Scars don't have a lot of stories about their actions on Terra. When I think about it, all I remember is them rushing out the front gates at some point.
I imagine it must have been hard to keep them cooped up in the palace.
DeffDred wrote: Yes, but I was talking about what DID happen. Not a "what if". The Salamanders din't escape because they weren't a match for the traitor forces... even with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard to help.
The White Scars don't have a lot of stories about their actions on Terra. When I think about it, all I remember is them rushing out the front gates at some point.
I imagine it must have been hard to keep them cooped up in the palace.
Fair enough, but by the same token the Ultramarines DIDN'T make it to Terra in time.
DeffDred wrote: Yes, but I was talking about what DID happen. Not a "what if". The Salamanders din't escape because they weren't a match for the traitor forces... even with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard to help.
The White Scars don't have a lot of stories about their actions on Terra. When I think about it, all I remember is them rushing out the front gates at some point.
I imagine it must have been hard to keep them cooped up in the palace.
Fair enough, but by the same token the Ultramarines DIDN'T make it to Terra in time.
DarthMarko wrote: What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...
He couldn't. The 2nd and the 11th were respectively lost and purged IIRC.
You could always just read Battle of the Fang and see that even the Thousand Sons feel that the SWs make really good anti warp wards. Imagine those scibbled all over the palace.
Please, don't compare WBs and UMs. WB weren't so strong, they're force was and still is number superiority. The Ultras had the same strong point, but they were better in this case. Empy whined about Lorgar and the fact that he was slow and wasn't getting gak done quickly enough. The Ultras, despite the hate, got and still get gak done.
DarthMarko wrote: Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
Well, their force is the fact that they can summon FUCKHUGE amounts of Daemons. But I think that, without them, the Ultras are far superior.
My two cents.
Orblivion wrote:True, but a change to the situation of any of the legions would have had a huge impact on the outcome. What if the White Scars didn't make it to Terra, leaving only the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels to hold against the Traitor Legions? What if the Salamanders escaped Isstvan and made it to Terra? No matter what legion we're talking about, any one of them could have tipped the balance either way.
I think it's worth assuming, for the sake of the thread/debate, that the sides would be balanced somewhat.
So, say there was the Space Wolves at Terra, they'd replace the Blood Angels for example. Or if the Thousand Sons were loyalist, then the Space Wolves would take their place, that kinda thing.
Just helps the debate; same as ignoring the ol' "no canon" shtick.
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
I at least typically refer to Legions/Primarchs pre-heresy/pre-Chaos; makes things more balanced and informed for the sake of debate IMHO, as a lot of stuff goes up in the air when Chaos gets involved, as ever.
DarthMarko wrote: Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
Well, their force is the fact that they can summon FUCKHUGE amounts of Daemons. But I think that, without them, the Ultras are far superior.
My two cents.
Hey not disputing that, but WB can summon all kinds of devils and they have their uses...
But in Mark of Calth they do get embarrassed by UM....Which I really hate...
DarthMarko wrote: What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...
He couldn't. The 2nd and the 11th were respectively lost and purged IIRC.
HeraldofDisease wrote:The Ultramarines may have made a HUGE difference, but I think that just would have been offset by the Alpha Legion. Alpharius would know Gulliman would be the biggest threat initially, and would have done very subtle things to sap his army or even his legions morale itself. I think that is one of the biggest disadvantages the Ultramrines have. Gulliman is inside the box, where as Alpha Legion is outside of it. Gulliman follows war as it "should" be while Alpharius makes his own rules.
This is a fairly inaccurate assessment of the Ultramarines, and a common misconception with fans not familiar with the fluff. There was very little "inside the box" about Guilliman. He was regarded, in the fluff as fact, not speculation, as the most brilliant overall general among the Primarchs. While Alpharius was always testing out new tactics and strategies, it has always been suggested in the fluff that it was never anything truly innovative, nor anything Guilliman hadn't already thought of.
In fact, in one of the more applicable bits of fluff, Guilliman chastised Alpharius for drawing out one of his campaigns unnecessarily and calling it a waste of time and bolter shells. This suggests that Alpharius wasn't always looking for the best, or most efficient way of doing things, but only that he was looking for a way to prove that he was a great general, and could humiliate his opponents if he wanted to. It is easily inferred that Guilliman could have come up with the same plan Alpharius did, he just wouldn't because it wasn't a very good one. Guilliman was always about doing things the best way. That didn't mean he couldn't adapt or improvise, In fact, anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that all of the greatest generals in real world history have been masters of those very things. "Writing the book on war" wouldn't mean Guilliman was creating a list of instructions for how to fight war, instead it would be offering up the wisdom and experience of countless campaigns mated to basic tenets of maneuver and strategy. In fact, it would be impossible for the Codex Astartes to be an instruction manual on war with set scenarios and solutions for everything, because every battle is different and has hundreds, if not thousands of variables that would make having one way of doing things be impossible.
"I were to sum up what I've learned in 35 years of service, it's improvise, improvise, improvise." - General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC. And Mattis only has 35 years of experience, lol.
Guilliman was one the most successful of the Primarchs, militarily. And on top of that, he was able to build the largest Legion with little effort, create the most stable and productive sectors of the Imperium, and operate with the lowest casualty rates. All of that suggests an incredibly shrewd mind. While I rarely point to the Heresy novels for evidence, Abnett did a fairly good job with Guilliman in KNF.
They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.
And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.
???
DA and SW arival was imminent IIRC....
They even went toe to toe with traitors in the imperial palace...
It was all three of them. In the "original" version of the Heresy, Horus made sure the Ultramarines were too far away from Terra to take part in the battle. However, the fluff disagrees on who did what or was where. In fact, all the original Chaos Codex books listed it as "Nobody knows why" Horus lowered his shields. Other fluff from 2nd and 3rd Edition suggests that it was because the Ultras, Dangels, and Wolves were closing in on Earf (though in no specific order). Don;t recall any fluff about the Wolves or Dangels actually fighting in the battle, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. The Black Library's Collected Visions book also explicitly mentions all three as approaching Terra as being why Horus lowered his shield to bait the Emprah.
Depends on how you look at efficiency. Waste of time and bolter shells? Sure. Waste of lives? I don't believe so. Guess it depends on what you think is more valuable.
And I believe that that particular incident and those leading up to it reflect more on the arrogance and pride on both the part of Guilliman and Alpharius Omegon. Guilliman with his "you can never hope to accomplish that which I have and will," and Alpharius Omegon rising up to the occasion to try to prove his(their) worth as a commander in the eyes of his brothers (at least Dorn admitted it was an impressive feat of Alpharius, though he labelled it cowardly, unmanly which I suppose reflects upon his arrogance and pride as well).
DarthMarko wrote: What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...
He couldn't. The 2nd and the 11th were respectively lost and purged IIRC.
They were purged and forgotten respectively.
Or they could both have been purged and forgotten, rather than respectively.
In the old fluff, where the Alpha legion were fighting the Ultra Marines just after the heresy - The Alpha's were doing really well against the Ultras. They were using the standard 'we've read your codex so we know all your rules' tactic that used to be the way to beat the Ultras. Then Guilliman got annoyed, thought outside the box and surprised Alpharius by just going straight round to Alph's house and killing him in a decapitative strike. The hallmark of the Alphas was that they were still able to function even after the loss of their primarch. This showed that the Alpha legions tactics were valid and that Alpharius severely underestimated Guilliman.
I think the Ultramarines get underestimated in the fluff because of the TT game. In the TT game they are the standard space marines. In the heresy, they were arguably the best legion to have on your side. I think if the Ultras had made it to terra, they would have been the most decisive factor in the battle. The largest, best equipped, possibly the most efficient and highly trained legion would have made the most difference.
Spoiler:
Mind you, Guilliman then tried the same 'cut off the head' tactic on Fulgrim and ended up completely screwed.
Spoiler:
And now it wasn't Alpharius that he killed, it was Omegon. But it might not have been either. There are times I hate retcons.
Here is the story when Russ nad Johnson reached Terra:
Spoiler:
The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels dropped into the fighting around the ruins of the Emperor's Palace. Joining forces with the remnants of the White Scars and the Blood Angels they swiftly drove the forces of Chaos from the rubble. Howling his warcry, Russ battled his way into his father's throne-room, slaying every enemy that came within range of his bolter of within reach of his axe. By his side were his wolves, guarding his back, howling warnings of hidden enemies and lamentations for fallen brothers. Through the shadowy halls Russ battled and one by one his bodyguards fell away, slain by their fearsome foes. Russ feared not. THere were monsters in the most sacred hall in the Universe and Russ vowed he would slay every one of them if need be.
Two-headed mutants fell to his blade. Great formless spawn erupted and these he flamed. Daemons stalked the halls, howling in terror, for the Emperor had slain Horus and in turn taken a mortal wound. Russ showed no foe mercy. Hatred was in his heart and death was in his hand.
Russ came at last to the audience chamber. Fallen stone angels lay on the marble floor. The bodies of dead men and monsters were strewn everywhere. Over everything lay an eerie quiet and even the great wolves fell silent. Russ called aloud for the Emperor and his cry echoed, answerless, round the great chamber. He stood alone, at the centre of the world, and wept. He knelt before the Emperor's empty throne and prayed for guidance. In the distance, brazen horns sounded their victorious note. Word of the death of Horus and the arrival of Russ and Jonson had spread and the forces of Chaos fled in full retreat. The dark will that had bound them was gone. For the first time Russ felt no joy in victory and saw no glory in his deeds. In the empty hall, all seemed meaningless and dark, and despair threatened to overtake him.
The air shimmered and Rogal Dorn, stern Primarch of the Imperial Fists appeared. In his arms he carried the broken body of the Emperor. Behind him his men reverently carried the corpse of the eagle-winged Sanguinius. He would fly no more. Russ looked wearily at Dorn. Silently Dorn shook his head. Both men knew that it was over. Horus's treachery had left the Imperium in ruins. The band of brothers was sundered forever. The dream that they had fought for was dead. This was no victory. Russ let out a great howl of grief and rage, and turned and stalked from the Hall.
...
