Three young women who vanished about a decade ago in the US state of Ohio have been found and are in hospital in a fair condition, officials have said.
Amanda Berry disappeared aged 16 in 2003, while Gina DeJesus went missing at the age of 14 a year later.
They and Michele Knight, 32, who vanished in 2002 at the age of 20, were found in a house in the city of Cleveland, police confirmed.
Three brothers have been arrested in connection with the case.
Cleveland police said the suspects are Hispanic, aged 50, 52 and 54, and one of them had lived at the house on Seymour Avenue.
Gina DeJesus' uncle said they were in shock but very grateful for her discovery.
"In all this time, 10 years, nobody never figured nothing about where she was at and this has come to an end and it's right here on Seymour," he said.
Meanwhile, a doctor confirmed the three women were being kept in hospital for observation.
"This isn't the ending we usually hear to these stories," said Dr Gerald Maloney in a brief news conference outside Metro Health hospital in Cleveland. "We're very happy."
Speaking amid cheers from spectators, he added the women were able to speak to hospital staff but he declined to give further details.
The BBC's Jane Little says it was assumed the girls were dead, and the mother of one victim said she believed her daughter had been sold into slavery.
At least one of the women is reported to have a baby.
'Here a long time'
In a frantic call to police released to the news media, Ms Berry identified her captor as Ariel Castro. She said she had escaped after he had left the house.
Local news stations say Mr Castro is one of the men in police custody.
"I am thankful that Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight have been found alive," Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson said.
"We have many unanswered questions regarding this case and the investigation will be ongoing."
A neighbour said he had seen a woman screaming for help at the front door of the house.
Photos of Berry (left) and DeJesus were distributed widely after they went missing
Charles Ramsey said he suggested the woman open the door and exit, but she told him it was locked.
"We had to kick open the bottom," he said. "Lucky on that door it was aluminium. It was cheap. She climbed out with her daughter."
Mr Ramsey then sheltered the woman, who said there were others in the house.
Ms Berry was last heard from when she called her sister on 21 April 2003 to say she would get a lift home from work at a Burger King restaurant.
In 2004, Ms DeJesus was said to be on her way home from school when she went missing.
Their cases were re-opened last year when a prison inmate tipped off authorities that Ms Berry may have been buried in Cleveland. He received a four-and-a-half-year sentence in prison for the false information.
Amanda Berry's mother, Louwana, died in March 2006, three years after her daughter's disappearance.
Although much is still not yet known about this case, it recalled a series of recent high-profile child abduction cases.
Jaycee Lee Dugard was 11 years old when she was dragged into a car as she walked to a bus stop near her home in South Lake Tahoe, California in 1991.
She was discovered in August 2009, having spent 18 years held captive in the backyard of Phillip and Nancy Garrido in Antioch, some 170 miles from South Lake Tahoe. She had two children.
In Austria, Natascha Kampusch was abducted on her way to school at the age of 10. She was held for eight years by Wolfgang Priklopil in the windowless basement of a house in a quiet suburb of Vienna.
She managed to escape in 2006 while Priklopil was making a phone call. He committed suicide hours after she had fled.
Elizabeth Smart was 14 when she was taken from the bedroom of her Utah home in June 2002 and repeatedly raped during nine months of captivity.
She was rescued in March 2003 less than 20 miles from her home. Her abductor, Brian David Mitchell, was jailed for life in 2011.
Gina DeJesus and Amanda Berry (2 of the 3 girls) have been in the local news at least once a year, hoping that something positive would come of the case...
To give some humor to the situation... the Neighbor that helped "find" them has become an overnight internet sensation as "Dead Giveaway Guy"...
Snrub wrote: Sons of bitches... I'm not normally in favour of the death penalty but i think i'd make an exception for these scum suckers.
Nice to see the 3 women were ok (within reason that is).
Apparently one of them had a 6 year old kid... Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus were under 18 when abducted... Edit: Apparently it's Amanda Berry's child, a 6yr old girl.
Snrub wrote: Sons of bitches... I'm not normally in favour of the death penalty but i think i'd make an exception for these scum suckers.
Nice to see the 3 women were ok (within reason that is).
Apparently one of them had a 6 year old kid... Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus were under 18 when abducted... Edit: Apparently it's Amanda Berry's child, a 6yr old girl.
Yes on 2nd thought that was a rather silly assumption. I'd imagine you would be anything but ok after 10 years locked in a basement or something. I might just remove that....
I have no idea what the penalty for this should be, but it should be... severe.
You know a more fitting punishment might be to lock them in the dankest, darkest hole available and let them rot there for the rest of their worthless exsistance. They certainly don't deserve an easy way out.
I'm glad the ladies are finally free, but I can't help but feel sorry for the mother who died without knowing her daughter's fate.
No punishment will ever be equal to the harm inflicted on the ladies and their families, but that should not stop these responsible from being punished severely.
It was pretty heart-wrenching to read that story this morning. I'm glad to know those women are safe. I just hope that they can find some peace now. Frazz sums up my further thoughts nicely:
Sad... kidnapped for the prime years of their young lives, they'll have problems integrating in to society again...
reds8n wrote: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/amanda_berry_is_dead_psychic_t.html
query then :
can this mother now sue the "psychic" who told her that her daughter was dead ? ... I assume then that the psychic concerned will enlighten us all as to why she was wrong.. any time now...
I sure as hell hope so.
So-called "psychics" are nothing more than charlatans preying upon the unfortunate. No exception.
That's... disturbing to say the least. I disagree with Frazz though. The needle's too good for'em. Feed them to something large, angry and carnivorous.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: That's... disturbing to say the least. I disagree with Frazz though. The needle's too good for'em. Feed them to something large, angry and carnivorous.
Do you want to wait until we make Jurassic Park a reality?
KalashnikovMarine wrote: That's... disturbing to say the least. I disagree with Frazz though. The needle's too good for'em. Feed them to something large, angry and carnivorous.
Do you want to wait until we make Jurassic Park a reality?
We could chain them to the raised platform that draws the T-Rex out.
One of the most horrifying thoughts of this world is the idea of being held captive in a basement or someone's house for years at another persons else's mercy, with dozens of people walking by each day completely ignorant of your plight.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: That's... disturbing to say the least. I disagree with Frazz though. The needle's too good for'em. Feed them to something large, angry and carnivorous.
How about small, angry, and bitey... I hear the Legionnes Wiennes are available for hire... the Great Wiene's Angels of Death.
While normally I am a jokester, not on this thread. Best wishes to them and their relatives. Best curses to the vermin that kidnapped them. May they reap what they have sown.
Frazzled wrote: While normally I am a jokester, not on this thread. Best wishes to them and their relatives. Best curses to the vermin that kidnapped them. May they reap what they have sown.
I'm not joking either... I'm trying to find something crueler than a small horde of angry dachsund ripping you apart...
Frazzled wrote: While normally I am a jokester, not on this thread. Best wishes to them and their relatives. Best curses to the vermin that kidnapped them. May they reap what they have sown.
I'm not joking either... I'm trying to find something crueler than a small horde of angry dachsund ripping you apart...
Sometimes Dakka can scare me with the punishments they think of. You all cant be serious? Can you? Isnt "Cruel and unusual punishment" part of the constitution? Y'know the thing this country if founded on.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Sometimes Dakka can scare me with the punishments they think of. You all cant be serious? Can you? Isnt "Cruel and unusual punishment" part of the constitution? Y'know the thing this country if founded on.
daedalus wrote:People are so horrible to each other.
To be fair though, some people are horrible enough that it invites to others the desire to be horrible back onto them.
Those people could have the worst happen to them, and it still be better than they deserve.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Sometimes Dakka can scare me with the punishments they think of. You all cant be serious? Can you? Isnt "Cruel and unusual punishment" part of the constitution? Y'know the thing this country if founded on.
What punishment would be cruel and unusual for someone who locked away 2 children and a woman for 10 years to keep for their own depraved use, whatever that may have been? These three adult males (I won't call them men) have caused over 36 years of torment to these 3 women, and the child born in captivity. Stacked up against that it is very hard to think of a fitting punishment. That poor 6 year old has never known a life outside of captivity! I find it even harder to conceive of anything that would be regarded as cruel and unusual in comparison to the crime.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Sometimes Dakka can scare me with the punishments they think of. You all cant be serious? Can you? Isnt "Cruel and unusual punishment" part of the constitution? Y'know the thing this country if founded on.
Cruel and unusual punishment applies to the government. We're not limited. I'll note the needle is current practice in Texas, or just dying of old age on death row.
We let the justice system take its course.
Vigilante justice is NOT justice, it is colored perceptions acting out on mob mentality.
And how does immolation not make you cruel? Because it is justified?
hotsauceman1 wrote: We let the justice system take its course.
Vigilante justice is NOT justice, it is colored perceptions acting out on mob mentality.
And how does immolation not make you cruel? Because it is justified?
Well yeah. Obviously.
You don't actually think the posters here are going to try to drag these men out of their jail cells and hang them or something, do you? It's just people venting.
I don't think any of these men will be free again. Life in prison. Hell, even a 20 year sentence is a life sentence for 50 year olds.
hotsauceman1 wrote: We let the justice system take its course.
Vigilante justice is NOT justice, it is colored perceptions acting out on mob mentality.
And how does immolation not make you cruel? Because it is justified?
I've got nothing against being cruel to evil people. Please wake me up when you have a point.
hotsauceman1 wrote: We let the justice system take its course. Vigilante justice is NOT justice, it is colored perceptions acting out on mob mentality. And how does immolation not make you cruel? Because it is justified?
Well yeah. Obviously.
You don't actually think the posters here are going to try to drag these men out of their jail cells and hang them or something, do you? It's just people venting.
I don't think any of these men will be free again. Life in prison. Hell, even a 20 year sentence is a life sentence for 50 year olds.
Well I have some time tomorrow evening if somone could ship them over to the park behind my Houston house. There's a lovely nature spot there and connecting bayou. Are they allergic to fire ants? How about a few thousand of them?
hotsauceman1 wrote:Sometimes Dakka can scare me with the punishments they think of. You all cant be serious? Can you? Isnt "Cruel and unusual punishment" part of the constitution? Y'know the thing this country if founded on.
I was always amused by that phrase. So, in order to legitimize a cruel punishment, all we need to do is inflict on enough people that it's not considered unusual.
hotsauceman1 wrote: We let the justice system take its course.
Vigilante justice is NOT justice, it is colored perceptions acting out on mob mentality.
And how does immolation not make you cruel? Because it is justified?
I blame it on the Dexter phenomenon.
Current incarceration is NOT enough to disincentivize these actions... current incarceration's role is to just keep the convict out of the public.
Punishments need to fit the crimes...and what punishment do we have on the books that befits this crime, locking them up, and giving them all the standard entitlements that any other prisoner gets, 3 hots and a cot.
These men kidnapped and held 3 young girls for YEARS, submitting them to god knows what, and scarring them for the rest of their lives.
The justice system will merely lock these guys up in the same place that a car thief will go.
So what is justice? And who is allowed to carry it out? Some Joe Schmo with a love of molotov cocktails?
And the death penalty isn't enough to stop killers, there are and always will be horrible crime, you CANT stop people from wanting to do it because they always will.
In cases where there is no shadow of a doubt, and crimes are premeditated and deliberate, we as a society should treat it like any other predator , remove it in the most effective and permanent method possible, with the least impact on the population at large.
You don't hang someone for shoplifting, but what amounts to kidnapping and sexual slavery....I will start tying the noose for that one.
I thought the whole reason we left the jungle was so that we didnt act like other predators?
And what if we had some highly sadistic fether in the position to decide punishments? they might choose overly high punishments.
TBH alot of this sounds like justice before we where civilized.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I thought the whole reason we left the jungle was so that we didnt act like other predators?
And what if we had some highly sadistic fether in the position to decide punishments? they might choose overly high punishments.
TBH alot of this sounds like justice before we where civilized.
Predators are still predators, just because they wear a suit and have concrete under their feet does not change the fact.
There is never one person that gets to spin a wheel or decide random punishments,
Since when have criminals ever been civilized in their actions.
The only reason that punishments have become more "Humane" is to allow people to feel better about the enacting of them, has the crime rate reduced as we became a modern culture, have people stopped murdering each other now that we don't string them up from a tree..
Use to be there was not a concept of a repeat offender of a capitol crime, now we do have that.
You want to know what's cruel and unusual hotsauceman...
Gina Dejesus, the youngest of the three women was forced to be impregnated several times over the past decade, but was beaten to the point she lost the babies...
The fething donkey-caves deserve the worst punishment possible...
Chains hanging from the ceiling... these guys are sick...
And the death penalty isn't enough to stop killers, there are and always will be horrible crime, you CANT stop people from wanting to do it because they always will.
The death penalty is enough to stop repeat offenders. Countries with an active death penalty have a 0% repeat offence rate for crimes that received the death penalty.
I agree, Life in prison. What I dont agree in is becoming ust as bad as the donkey caves.
Lets say someone went out(Maybe the parents of the victims) and kidnapped the suspects. Now lets say they did horrible things to them, like IDk, shocked their genitals, Cut off pieces of skin, or drowned them. What would you think then? Would they be justified in their actions?
We should not become just as bad as them
hotsauceman1 wrote: I agree, Life in prison. What I dont agree in is becoming ust as bad as the donkey caves.
Lets say someone went out(Maybe the parents of the victims) and kidnapped the suspects. Now lets say they did horrible things to them, like IDk, shocked their genitals, Cut off pieces of skin, or drowned them. What would you think then? Would they be justified in their actions?
We should not become just as bad as them
Do you know how much it costs to incarcerate someone for a year, let alone the rest of their life? Society shouldn't be forced to endure a tax burden because some people are too squeamish to kill. Any crime that results in a life sentence should be a death penalty.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I agree, Life in prison. What I dont agree in is becoming ust as bad as the donkey caves.
Lets say someone went out(Maybe the parents of the victims) and kidnapped the suspects. Now lets say they did horrible things to them, like IDk, shocked their genitals, Cut off pieces of skin, or drowned them. What would you think then?
This isnt about being squimish to kill, this is ABOUT how it would make us just as bad as them. And as a society we have to come to terms, what do we want, a civilized society where we do not go towards acts of vendettas against some, because like i said, those acts are clouded by hate and anger. Ot a free for all society where punishment is death? Why not kill everyone for a crime? If you are not willing to pay for 20 years why pay for 1?
hotsauceman1 wrote: I agree, Life in prison. What I dont agree in is becoming ust as bad as the donkey caves. Lets say someone went out(Maybe the parents of the victims) and kidnapped the suspects. Now lets say they did horrible things to them, like IDk, shocked their genitals, Cut off pieces of skin, or drowned them. What would you think then?
I would buy them a ing beer.
God, I am glad i live no where near Texas. You think they would be justified? Despite doing horrible things?
Someone punishing a criminal can NEVER be as bad as a person that committed a crime on a innocent person, same actions..completely different motivations, soldiers kill the enemy in combat does that make them murderers, maybe so if you apply that logic.
Sorry buddy, some people on this big world need to be removed when their sick demented tendencies come to light.
your rose colored ideas of how things should be are naïve at best, go spend some time at a prison or sit in on some court cases, and watch our wonderful legal system at work..or not work as the case may be, we have child rapists and repeat offenders constantly being shown the door, 5 years good behavior on a 30 year sentence.
Do you know how much it costs to incarcerate someone for a year, let alone the rest of their life? Society shouldn't be forced to endure a tax burden because some people are too squeamish to kill. Any crime that results in a life sentence should be a death penalty.
They don't just inject someone and call it a day. Most people on death row tend to be there for a very long time, requiring the same tax burden of any other criminal, and then there's the massive amount of appeals involved which end up costing more than lifetime incarceration.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Someone punishing a criminal can NEVER be as bad as a person that committed a crime on a innocent person, same actions..completely different motivations, soldiers kill the enemy in combat does that make them murderers, maybe so if you apply that logic.
Sorry buddy, some people on this big world need to be removed when their sick demented tendencies come to light.
your rose colored ideas of how things should be are naïve at best, go spend some time at a prison or sit in on some court cases, and watch our wonderful legal system at work..or not work as the case may be, we have child rapists and repeat offenders constantly being shown the door, 5 years good behavior on a 30 year sentence.
Then they move in 2 doors down from you....
I have read court cases. I have read horrible books(One moment will always stay with me is reading a book about dehumanizing, where Japanese soldier pput explosives in pregnant womens wombs). I know what im talking about, But what im scared of is a society where we fall in love with the killing, the death and the execution of these prisoners, where we become so blood thirsty that we may not even care about the trial or a system, wher they kill you on the spot, Which is what people here are proposing. I think your ideas of killing people for crimes is sick.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Someone punishing a criminal can NEVER be as bad as a person that committed a crime on a innocent person, same actions..completely different motivations, soldiers kill the enemy in combat does that make them murderers, maybe so if you apply that logic.
Sorry buddy, some people on this big world need to be removed when their sick demented tendencies come to light.
your rose colored ideas of how things should be are naïve at best, go spend some time at a prison or sit in on some court cases, and watch our wonderful legal system at work..or not work as the case may be, we have child rapists and repeat offenders constantly being shown the door, 5 years good behavior on a 30 year sentence.
Then they move in 2 doors down from you....
I have read court cases. I have read horrible books(One moment will always stay with me is reading a book about dehumanizing, where Japanese soldier pput explosives in pregnant womens wombs). I know what im talking about, But what im scared of is a society where we fall in love with the killing, the death and the execution of these prisoners, where we become so blood thirsty that we may not even care about the trial or a system, wher they kill you on the spot, Which is what people here are proposing. I think your ideas of killing people for crimes is sick.
Ot a free for all society where punishment is death? Why not kill everyone for a crime? If you are not willing to pay for 20 years why pay for 1?
Ah now you're starting to come around at last.
But I'll go with life if you so desperately want it, in the Black Hole of Calcutta.
Here is an idea, Bring back penal colonies. Get Dubai to make us some islands from sand in the middle of the ocean, put the worst there. That way we all win. They re stuck on an island where thye cant get out, so we wont support them. And we dont have to kill them.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Someone punishing a criminal can NEVER be as bad as a person that committed a crime on a innocent person, same actions..completely different motivations, soldiers kill the enemy in combat does that make them murderers, maybe so if you apply that logic.
Sorry buddy, some people on this big world need to be removed when their sick demented tendencies come to light.
your rose colored ideas of how things should be are naïve at best, go spend some time at a prison or sit in on some court cases, and watch our wonderful legal system at work..or not work as the case may be, we have child rapists and repeat offenders constantly being shown the door, 5 years good behavior on a 30 year sentence.
Then they move in 2 doors down from you....
I have read court cases. I have read horrible books(One moment will always stay with me is reading a book about dehumanizing, where Japanese soldier pput explosives in pregnant womens wombs). I know what im talking about, But what im scared of is a society where we fall in love with the killing, the death and the execution of these prisoners, where we become so blood thirsty that we may not even care about the trial or a system, wher they kill you on the spot, Which is what people here are proposing. I think your ideas of killing people for crimes is sick.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Someone punishing a criminal can NEVER be as bad as a person that committed a crime on a innocent person, same actions..completely different motivations, soldiers kill the enemy in combat does that make them murderers, maybe so if you apply that logic.
Sorry buddy, some people on this big world need to be removed when their sick demented tendencies come to light.
your rose colored ideas of how things should be are naïve at best, go spend some time at a prison or sit in on some court cases, and watch our wonderful legal system at work..or not work as the case may be, we have child rapists and repeat offenders constantly being shown the door, 5 years good behavior on a 30 year sentence.
Then they move in 2 doors down from you....
I have read court cases. I have read horrible books(One moment will always stay with me is reading a book about dehumanizing, where Japanese soldier pput explosives in pregnant womens wombs). I know what im talking about, But what im scared of is a society where we fall in love with the killing, the death and the execution of these prisoners, where we become so blood thirsty that we may not even care about the trial or a system, wher they kill you on the spot, Which is what people here are proposing. I think your ideas of killing people for crimes is sick.
Sorry kid, but reading a book is not the same as watching a rapist slip through punishment because of a technicality on the arrest, or hear a criminal brag about beating a old woman half to death for her welfare check, I did bailiff duty in my younger days, and it started turning my stomach.
nobody is advocating some kinda pol pot regime, but when its beyond even a shadow of a fact, why give these animals a chance to do it to someone else again, and don't say "MY" ideas of killing people for crimes, its a concept of punishment matches the crime where possible.
what I find sick is people that allow criminals to be caught, tried incarcerated ( for tens of thousands of dollars in costs) released, and commit the same crimes again on new innocents...and these same people that call that justice..pat themselves on the back and say.."My look at how civilized we are."
I'm done here the level of bleeding heart is at bucket deep.
I'd say for the criminals, they deserve the death penalty, but it should be done as quickly as possible. The objective would be to:
1: Remove them from the world as soon as possible, They can't touch anyone anymore six feet underneath the ground.
2: Do it with minimum cost to the public
If you're going to go for the mutilation thing, (granted they deserve it) but who's going to do such a severe thing in the end? you lot lol? Big talk.... And even if someone did step up and do the deed, let's say said individual disembowelled him on national television < it'd raise some questions about the executioner himself and his own state of mind.
As tempting as it might be for some people, torture executions should not be the way to go, as responsible citizens we're better than that. Personally I just want these people gone, as quickly as possible.
Kill them the rational way, remove the threat with minimum cost and spectacle, put the sickos up against the wall and shoot them then bill their relatives for the bullets (if they have them) quick and simple, problem solved.
hotsauceman1 wrote:This isnt about being squimish to kill, this is ABOUT how it would make us just as bad as them.
I disagree that the clinical disposal of individuals who pose a threat to society is as bad as posing a threat to society.
And as a society we have to come to terms, what do we want, a civilized society where we do not go towards acts of vendettas against some, because like i said, those acts are clouded by hate and anger. Ot a free for all society where punishment is death? Why not kill everyone for a crime? If you are not willing to pay for 20 years why pay for 1?
I agree. The US incarcerates a higher percentage of its citizens than any other country. A lot of this is because there is a huge industry around keeping people in jail. Many prisons are privatized and provide jobs in communities, both of which provide political capital for keeping the system as is. Three-strikes laws, mandatory sentencing and so forth have created an overcrowded prison system in which people who shouldn't be locked up (relatively harmless drug offenses) are, and people who shouldn't be let go (those who have committed violent crimes) are released early. It's quite counter-intuitive if you examine it.
I think all violent criminals should be executed, and all non-violent criminals should be seen as redeemable, not locked up indefinitely.
But there's a saying, "No one ever got elected running on prison reform".
They don't just inject someone and call it a day. Most people on death row tend to be there for a very long time, requiring the same tax burden of any other criminal, and then there's the massive amount of appeals involved which end up costing more than lifetime incarceration.
That's because it's poorly implemented. That wasn't the case 100 years ago. Follow the money - there's a reason it costs a lot to execute someone today - because there's an industry getting rich off of it. It doesn't need to. Once upon a time, all you needed was a gallows, and that was even reusable.
Of course, you'll spew some nonsense about the chance that someone innocent is accidentally executed without all these checks and balances. And, I'll even grant you - yes, that might happen. However, the odds still favor doing it because the chances are pretty low, compared to the very high chances of a repeat offender committing a violent crime against an innocent person. It's simple math really. Some innocent people are going to die. Fewer innocent people die if you execute criminals than if you don't.
Im not a bleeding heart, I have not sympathy for the fethers like i said. What i do not want is out society to become so hellbent on revenge we loose ourselves in it. And why is you seeing it different from me reading it? It both happened, one just saw it in person. And here is why i do not like the death penalty either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham
hotsauceman1 wrote: What i do not want is out society to become so hellbent on revenge we loose ourselves in it.
Why do you insist it is revenge? It's a pragmatic solution that removes dangerous elements from society so that they no longer pose a threat, at a reasonable cost. It could even be argued that it is more humane to kill someone than to lock them in a cage for 40+ years.
Care to provide the statistics for the number of innocent people killed by repeat offenders every year, or a heart wrenching empirical story about the single mother of three who got killed by some junkie released from an overcrowded jail after being locked up for a prior violent crime?
It can easily slip into revenge is what I'm saying. Or could also turn into systemized revenge where people see those who committed the crimes so lowly that they can abuse them all they want with w/o care because they are so lowly, threfore becoming horriblee people themselves.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Someone punishing a criminal can NEVER be as bad as a person that committed a crime on a innocent person, same actions..completely different motivations, soldiers kill the enemy in combat does that make them murderers, maybe so if you apply that logic.
Sorry buddy, some people on this big world need to be removed when their sick demented tendencies come to light.
your rose colored ideas of how things should be are naïve at best, go spend some time at a prison or sit in on some court cases, and watch our wonderful legal system at work..or not work as the case may be, we have child rapists and repeat offenders constantly being shown the door, 5 years good behavior on a 30 year sentence.
Then they move in 2 doors down from you....
I have read court cases. I have read horrible books(One moment will always stay with me is reading a book about dehumanizing, where Japanese soldier pput explosives in pregnant womens wombs). I know what im talking about, But what im scared of is a society where we fall in love with the killing, the death and the execution of these prisoners, where we become so blood thirsty that we may not even care about the trial or a system, wher they kill you on the spot, Which is what people here are proposing. I think your ideas of killing people for crimes is sick.
This is such a sad story, I hope those girls can get back to a normal life if that's possible after their torment. Their captors are monsters, they should be shown no remorse, just as they have shown none.
The death penalty, as it stands, is neither pragmatic nor cost effective. Using an imaginary 'oh if it were this way' standard for it doesn't really do much to further the discussion because we can only deal with the reality of the death penalty, not a fantasy of it. Even then it is still problematic as saying killing is so terrible the only solution is killing makes little sense. Even more so when no one is killed. Add in an imperfect system and really the only good reason for such a thing is that it satiates some lizard brain desire in us for retribution, not justice.
Frazzled wrote: OK. Supermax. They never interact with another person ever again. Solitary forever with 30 minutes in a solitary enclosed space for exercise.
Can we also put them in like a "supermax" farm so they have to provide for their own stuff?
I think we need to reform the death penalty with a fast track for executions. You get two appeals, and it's best two out of three. So if two juries back to back find you guilty on all charges, do not pass go, do not collect $100 dollars, here's your last meal, you die at dawn. Toss some built in safe guards and overwatch to double check evidence and overzealous prosecutors and go from there.
I do not understand objections to "cruel and unusual" punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment---and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense. As for "unusual', punishment Must be unusual or it serves no purpose.
When it comes to killing people, we ignore the Founding Fathers and the Constitution in favor of sci-fi authors, but when it comes to background checks for firearms the Founding Fathers are sacrosanct and their foresight and wisdom beyond reproach.
Ahtman wrote: When it comes to killing people, we ignore the Founding Fathers and the Constitution in favor of sci-fi authors, but when it comes to background checks for firearms the Founding Fathers are sacrosanct and their foresight and wisdom beyond reproach.
Does the Constitution say anything about Capital punishment? I didn't think so, but it's been a while since I read it all. We ignore a lot of what the Founding Fathers said anyway. We don't own slaves anymore, do we? Treating them like mythical infallible beings is a mistake, they too were humans, and humans who happened to live over 200 years ago.
And why is you seeing it different from me reading it? It both happened, one just saw it in person.
Well, reading a penthouse forums letter, while entertaining, is not nearly as awesome was watching Chesty Laroo in action.
I don't even know who chesty laroo is i assume someone from the early 80's by the name, but damn that made me laugh...thanks Kronk
In regard to punishing these guys, I am generally against corperal punishment and torture but in this case I think I'll support continuous waterboarding. I think that would give the felon a good comparison to the fear, discomfort and powerlessness these abductees felt.
Founding fathers? Isn't that the statement someone trots out in the US when they want to evoke some huge emotive response?
Do you know how much it costs to incarcerate someone for a year, let alone the rest of their life? Society shouldn't be forced to endure a tax burden because some people are too squeamish to kill. Any crime that results in a life sentence should be a death penalty.
Supposedly it costs more if you give them the death penalty because of all the appeals and what not.
And before you say that they shouldn't be allowed to appeal or should have a limited number of appeals you have to remember that there are always those death row inmates whom are later exonerated when new evidence comes to light. Also minors can be sentenced to life, so if we were to change life in jail to death then you would have instances were kids as young as 15 would be getting death sentences.
Then you have to consider the number of people whom are currently serving life sentences which this article http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/us/23sentence.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 by the NY time’s states is 140,000 or 1/10 of the prison population. So to save money the “not squeamish” people would have to kill 140,000 people some of whom might be innocent and some of whom are minors.
Now I’ll admit there are some people who really should be put down like the rabid dogs they are and if these guys are convicted I wouldn’t bat an eye if they got the death penalty. However I find your willingness to kill 140,000 of the current prison population a little bloodthirsty and unsettling.
Now I’ll admit there are some people who really should be put down like the rabid dogs they are and if these guys are convicted I wouldn’t bat an eye if they got the death penalty. However I find your willingness to kill 140,000 of the current prison population a little bloodthirsty and unsettling.
I think your estimate of how many I think deserve to die is low. It has nothing to do with bloodthirst, it has to do with being pragmatic.
Seriously, if you were given the option to spend the rest of your life in a tiny cell, isolated from friends and family, under observation 24/7, with no privacy, or other human rights - or you could die, why would you choose to live in those conditions? I know I wouldn't. I don't get the aversion to death without quality of life that our society seems to cling to. We'll grant our pets a humane death if they're badly injured or sick, but will keep grandma on a ventilator for years. Life in a cell is no life, and the only reason that we have all these appeals and delays is because the prison-industrial complex profits from it.
Yes, there are a handful of cases where someone innocent is executed that keep getting dragged out as empirical evidence, but they're statistically inconsequential. The vast majority of prisoners on death row are there because they deserve to be. Again, it's a numbers game. The idiot saying goes something like "better 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man is killed", but if 1000 guilty men go free, that's 1000 more innocent victims. If the goal is to minimize the number of innocent people harmed, then it's far more reasonable to let the occasional mistake happen than to let known criminals go free.
Now I’ll admit there are some people who really should be put down like the rabid dogs they are and if these guys are convicted I wouldn’t bat an eye if they got the death penalty. However I find your willingness to kill 140,000 of the current prison population a little bloodthirsty and unsettling.
I think your estimate of how many I think deserve to die is low. It has nothing to do with bloodthirst, it has to do with being pragmatic.
Seriously, if you were given the option to spend the rest of your life in a tiny cell, isolated from friends and family, under observation 24/7, with no privacy, or other human rights - or you could die, why would you choose to live in those conditions? I know I wouldn't. I don't get the aversion to death without quality of life that our society seems to cling to. We'll grant our pets a humane death if they're badly injured or sick, but will keep grandma on a ventilator for years. Life in a cell is no life, and the only reason that we have all these appeals and delays is because the prison-industrial complex profits from it.
Yes, there are a handful of cases where someone innocent is executed that keep getting dragged out as empirical evidence, but they're statistically inconsequential. The vast majority of prisoners on death row are there because they deserve to be. Again, it's a numbers game. The idiot saying goes something like "better 1000 guilty men go free than one innocent man is killed", but if 1000 guilty men go free, that's 1000 more innocent victims. If the goal is to minimize the number of innocent people harmed, then it's far more reasonable to let the occasional mistake happen than to let known criminals go free.
So in your mind by killing those 140,000 people you're really doing them a favor?
Redbeard wrote: Seriously, if you were given the option to spend the rest of your life in a tiny cell, isolated from friends and family, under observation 24/7, with no privacy, or other human rights - or you could die, why would you choose to live in those conditions?
I would choose to live, so to I think would most people.
These innocent people you are so blaze about are only inconsequential if you look at them from a statistical basis. They are all people, some ones' son, sister, father ect. I totally agree with the "idiot" saying, having one innocent person die as a result of a justice system feth up is too many. These feth ups happen too often in my opinion, in my country it has a lot to do with sloppy police work, it is one of the reasons I'm glad we don't have a death penalty.
Killing some one is cheaper yes, but when you kill the wrong person in a litigious culture, I imagine the costs skyrocket, how much do you pay a persons family who the state murdered?
I think you've got a tinfoil hat on in regard to the "prison/industrial complex profits from it". In my country we do not have that many private prisons and our greatest penalty is life in prison , losing 20 years of your life to that kind of enviroment is truly a penalty , and we hand out life for truly henious crimes, sadly murder can get you only 7 years. Our state prisons make no money off these prisoners.
If your government decides to save money by outsourcing prisons you cannot turn around and say it's all a scam to make money. You had incarceration before private prisons, private prisons did not change your legal system at all.
In regard to people choosing not to live in a prison enviroment, what a load of tosh. People choose to live all the time, even in concentration camps *gasp* It is a human imperitive to struggle to live.
Bullockist wrote: These innocent people you are so blaze about are only inconsequential if you look at them from a statistical basis.
You misread what I said. I'm not blaze about innocent people. I want to save as many as possible. That means going with the high probability method of removing known threats to innocent people (criminals). Victims of crime are innocent people. Victims of repeat offender crimes are innocent people that could have been prevented.
I think you've got a tinfoil hat on in regard to the "prison/industrial complex profits from it". In my country we do not have that many private prisons
I'm not talking about your country then, am I. You've got blinders on if you think that privatized prisons don't lobby in favor of longer minimum sentences, longer appeals processes and banning the death penalty. They're a business, primarily concerned with their bottom line.
...sadly murder can get you only 7 years.
So, when the murderers walk free after seven years, and kill someone else, how much do you pay that victim's family?
If your government decides to save money by outsourcing prisons you cannot turn around and say it's all a scam to make money. You had incarceration before private prisons, private prisons did not change your legal system at all.
You should do some research before making such claims. Since the privatization of many prisons, average sentences have gone up. Mandatory minimums have been increased. "Three strikes" laws have been implemented that impose harsh sentences for minor drug violations. No politician will say anything about this, because their opponent will attack them for being weak on crime. There's a reason that the US has a greater percentage of their population incarcerated than any other nation - people are making money off the prisoners. Be happy that isn't the case in your country, but don't say it isn't happening here.
In regard to people choosing not to live in a prison enviroment, what a load of tosh. People choose to live all the time, even in concentration camps *gasp* It is a human imperitive to struggle to live.
Which explains high prison suicide rates, right? It is a human imperative not to live in a cage too. Unfortunately, our litigious society exacts penalties on prisons where inmates have killed themselves, claiming the prison is to blame for not preventing it. Is it so hard to believe that people don't actually want to spend their life in jail though?
Police Visit Cleveland House of Horrors Several Times, Fail to Note Horrors
In new news from Cleveland's horrific kidnapping case, neighbors are alleging that they called the police multiple times to the home where Ariel Castro and his two brothers held Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, and Amanda Berry hostage for ten years. Neighbors claim that even though their calls described chilling scenarios — naked women on leashes crawling on all fours and women pounding on windows — they were either ignored, or the police completed very cursory check-ins.
According to neighbors, the situation at Ariel Castro's house was far from non-stop super fun barbecue parties.
Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away, said her daughter once saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several years ago and called police. "But they didn't take it seriously," she said.
Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of the doors of Castro's house, which had plastic bags on the windows, in November 2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door, but no one answered. "They walked to the side of the house and then left," he said.
Neighbors also said they would sometimes see Ariel Castro walking a little girl to a neighborhood playground. And Cintron said she once saw a little girl looking out of the house's attic window.
Israel Lugo said he, his family and neighbors called police three times between 2011 and 2012 after seeing disturbing things at the home of Ariel Castro. Lugo lives two houses down from Castro and grew suspicious after neighbors reported seeing naked women on leashes crawling on all fours behind Castro's house.
Lugo said about two years ago his sister told him she heard a woman pounding on a window at Castro's home as if she needed help. When his sister looked up, she saw a woman and a baby standing in a window half covered with a wooden plank. His sister told him and Lugo called the police.
But wait, there's more!
A third call came from neighborhood women who lived in an apartment building. Those women told Lugo they called police because they saw three young girls crawling on all fours naked with dog leashes around their necks. Three men were controlling them in the backyard. The women told Lugo they waited two hours but police never responded to the calls.
However, Cleveland officials said they have no record of any calls about criminal activity at the house, but that they are "still combing their records". Ugh.
This is especially heinous news as we learn about the conditions in the house. According Khalid Samad, a former assistant safety director for the city who now works for a crime prevention non-profit, told USA Today law enforcement officials told him the women were beaten while pregnant, with unborn children not surviving, and that there was a dungeon of sorts with chains. All the shudders, forever.
In another intense revelation from this story, Emily Castro, Ariel's daughter, is currently serving 25 years in prison for allegedly slashing her 11-month-old daughter's throat four times in 2007. She then cut her own neck and wrists and attempted to drown herself in a nearby creek. She suffers from manic depression diagnosed when she was 13, the court record says.
Ariel Castro's 31-year-old son Anthony, a journalism student who bizarrely/coincidentally wrote an article about Gina DeJesus' disappearance in 2004, says "This is beyond comprehension ... I'm truly stunned right now."
This case just gets more and more mind-blowing and heartbreaking.
This thread has taught me that all Americans LOVE the consitutition, unless it gets in the way of their feelings.
This is a horrible, horrible crime. However, it must still be treated as a crime, investigated, prosecuted, and the ruling of the court enforced as a crime per our American and Constitutionally enacted laws.
Right now, we don't have Journalism or much investigation; we have a media circus.
This is a horrible, horrible crime. However, it must still be treated as a crime, investigated, prosecuted, and the ruling of the court enforced as a crime per our American and Constitutionally enacted laws.
Right now, we don't have Journalism or much investigation; we have a media circus.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, so get off your freaking high horse.
This is a horrible, horrible crime. However, it must still be treated as a crime, investigated, prosecuted, and the ruling of the court enforced as a crime per our American and Constitutionally enacted laws.
Right now, we don't have Journalism or much investigation; we have a media circus.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, so get off your freaking high horse.
It gives me a better view from up here. It's like driving an SUV.
This isn't a "Taken" movie, and I think the problem of modern human slavery should be handled a bit more maturely than the ususal Fraz "Kill them all and let God sort them out" policy.
Police Visit Cleveland House of Horrors Several Times, Fail to Note Horrors
In new news from Cleveland's horrific kidnapping case, neighbors are alleging that they called the police multiple times to the home where Ariel Castro and his two brothers held Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, and Amanda Berry hostage for ten years. Neighbors claim that even though their calls described chilling scenarios — naked women on leashes crawling on all fours and women pounding on windows — they were either ignored, or the police completed very cursory check-ins.
According to neighbors, the situation at Ariel Castro's house was far from non-stop super fun barbecue parties.
Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away, said her daughter once saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several years ago and called police. "But they didn't take it seriously," she said.
Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of the doors of Castro's house, which had plastic bags on the windows, in November 2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door, but no one answered. "They walked to the side of the house and then left," he said.
Neighbors also said they would sometimes see Ariel Castro walking a little girl to a neighborhood playground. And Cintron said she once saw a little girl looking out of the house's attic window.
Israel Lugo said he, his family and neighbors called police three times between 2011 and 2012 after seeing disturbing things at the home of Ariel Castro. Lugo lives two houses down from Castro and grew suspicious after neighbors reported seeing naked women on leashes crawling on all fours behind Castro's house.
Lugo said about two years ago his sister told him she heard a woman pounding on a window at Castro's home as if she needed help. When his sister looked up, she saw a woman and a baby standing in a window half covered with a wooden plank. His sister told him and Lugo called the police.
But wait, there's more!
A third call came from neighborhood women who lived in an apartment building. Those women told Lugo they called police because they saw three young girls crawling on all fours naked with dog leashes around their necks. Three men were controlling them in the backyard. The women told Lugo they waited two hours but police never responded to the calls.
However, Cleveland officials said they have no record of any calls about criminal activity at the house, but that they are "still combing their records". Ugh.
This is especially heinous news as we learn about the conditions in the house. According Khalid Samad, a former assistant safety director for the city who now works for a crime prevention non-profit, told USA Today law enforcement officials told him the women were beaten while pregnant, with unborn children not surviving, and that there was a dungeon of sorts with chains. All the shudders, forever.
In another intense revelation from this story, Emily Castro, Ariel's daughter, is currently serving 25 years in prison for allegedly slashing her 11-month-old daughter's throat four times in 2007. She then cut her own neck and wrists and attempted to drown herself in a nearby creek. She suffers from manic depression diagnosed when she was 13, the court record says.
Ariel Castro's 31-year-old son Anthony, a journalism student who bizarrely/coincidentally wrote an article about Gina DeJesus' disappearance in 2004, says "This is beyond comprehension ... I'm truly stunned right now."
This case just gets more and more mind-blowing and heartbreaking.
[USA Today]
Jesus, dude. These men will be spending the rest of their lives in prison. These women will never have normal lives again.
This is a horrible, horrible crime. However, it must still be treated as a crime, investigated, prosecuted, and the ruling of the court enforced as a crime per our American and Constitutionally enacted laws.
Right now, we don't have Journalism or much investigation; we have a media circus.
I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, so get off your freaking high horse.
It gives me a better view from up here. It's like driving an SUV.
This isn't a "Taken" movie, and I think the problem of modern human slavery should be handled a bit more maturely than the ususal Fraz "Kill them all and let God sort them out" policy.
SUVs are for idiots, just saying.
I'm advocating full and complete trials, then execution as the appropriate punishment if that is permitted in that state. Your nattering about "violations of the constitution" is just that. Again get off your high horse.
Police Visit Cleveland House of Horrors Several Times, Fail to Note Horrors
In new news from Cleveland's horrific kidnapping case, neighbors are alleging that they called the police multiple times to the home where Ariel Castro and his two brothers held Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, and Amanda Berry hostage for ten years. Neighbors claim that even though their calls described chilling scenarios — naked women on leashes crawling on all fours and women pounding on windows — they were either ignored, or the police completed very cursory check-ins.
According to neighbors, the situation at Ariel Castro's house was far from non-stop super fun barbecue parties.
Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away, said her daughter once saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several years ago and called police. "But they didn't take it seriously," she said.
Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of the doors of Castro's house, which had plastic bags on the windows, in November 2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door, but no one answered. "They walked to the side of the house and then left," he said.
Neighbors also said they would sometimes see Ariel Castro walking a little girl to a neighborhood playground. And Cintron said she once saw a little girl looking out of the house's attic window.
Israel Lugo said he, his family and neighbors called police three times between 2011 and 2012 after seeing disturbing things at the home of Ariel Castro. Lugo lives two houses down from Castro and grew suspicious after neighbors reported seeing naked women on leashes crawling on all fours behind Castro's house.
Lugo said about two years ago his sister told him she heard a woman pounding on a window at Castro's home as if she needed help. When his sister looked up, she saw a woman and a baby standing in a window half covered with a wooden plank. His sister told him and Lugo called the police.
But wait, there's more!
A third call came from neighborhood women who lived in an apartment building. Those women told Lugo they called police because they saw three young girls crawling on all fours naked with dog leashes around their necks. Three men were controlling them in the backyard. The women told Lugo they waited two hours but police never responded to the calls.
However, Cleveland officials said they have no record of any calls about criminal activity at the house, but that they are "still combing their records". Ugh.
This is especially heinous news as we learn about the conditions in the house. According Khalid Samad, a former assistant safety director for the city who now works for a crime prevention non-profit, told USA Today law enforcement officials told him the women were beaten while pregnant, with unborn children not surviving, and that there was a dungeon of sorts with chains. All the shudders, forever.
In another intense revelation from this story, Emily Castro, Ariel's daughter, is currently serving 25 years in prison for allegedly slashing her 11-month-old daughter's throat four times in 2007. She then cut her own neck and wrists and attempted to drown herself in a nearby creek. She suffers from manic depression diagnosed when she was 13, the court record says.
Ariel Castro's 31-year-old son Anthony, a journalism student who bizarrely/coincidentally wrote an article about Gina DeJesus' disappearance in 2004, says "This is beyond comprehension ... I'm truly stunned right now."
This case just gets more and more mind-blowing and heartbreaking.
[USA Today]
That is shocking. Sadly if the police were called I can see their hands being tied a little if they went out and couldn't see anything that gave them probable cause.
Frankly i find myself agreeing with frazzled. These....... scum - i cannot bring myself to call them men - should be executed without hesitation. if this is not an option then have them live the rest of their lives in isolation, no external contact, denada. I dont care what others say these scum are not even worth the trial. Shoot them and be done with it. Or better yet, announce that you are going to place them in the centre of the town they lived in, and you are going to leave them there and let the public do the rest. Mob justice is good justice.
Police Visit Cleveland House of Horrors Several Times, Fail to Note Horrors
In new news from Cleveland's horrific kidnapping case, neighbors are alleging that they called the police multiple times to the home where Ariel Castro and his two brothers held Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, and Amanda Berry hostage for ten years. Neighbors claim that even though their calls described chilling scenarios — naked women on leashes crawling on all fours and women pounding on windows — they were either ignored, or the police completed very cursory check-ins.
According to neighbors, the situation at Ariel Castro's house was far from non-stop super fun barbecue parties.
Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away, said her daughter once saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several years ago and called police. "But they didn't take it seriously," she said.
Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of the doors of Castro's house, which had plastic bags on the windows, in November 2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door, but no one answered. "They walked to the side of the house and then left," he said.
Neighbors also said they would sometimes see Ariel Castro walking a little girl to a neighborhood playground. And Cintron said she once saw a little girl looking out of the house's attic window.
Israel Lugo said he, his family and neighbors called police three times between 2011 and 2012 after seeing disturbing things at the home of Ariel Castro. Lugo lives two houses down from Castro and grew suspicious after neighbors reported seeing naked women on leashes crawling on all fours behind Castro's house.
Lugo said about two years ago his sister told him she heard a woman pounding on a window at Castro's home as if she needed help. When his sister looked up, she saw a woman and a baby standing in a window half covered with a wooden plank. His sister told him and Lugo called the police.
But wait, there's more!
A third call came from neighborhood women who lived in an apartment building. Those women told Lugo they called police because they saw three young girls crawling on all fours naked with dog leashes around their necks. Three men were controlling them in the backyard. The women told Lugo they waited two hours but police never responded to the calls.
However, Cleveland officials said they have no record of any calls about criminal activity at the house, but that they are "still combing their records". Ugh.
This is especially heinous news as we learn about the conditions in the house. According Khalid Samad, a former assistant safety director for the city who now works for a crime prevention non-profit, told USA Today law enforcement officials told him the women were beaten while pregnant, with unborn children not surviving, and that there was a dungeon of sorts with chains. All the shudders, forever.
In another intense revelation from this story, Emily Castro, Ariel's daughter, is currently serving 25 years in prison for allegedly slashing her 11-month-old daughter's throat four times in 2007. She then cut her own neck and wrists and attempted to drown herself in a nearby creek. She suffers from manic depression diagnosed when she was 13, the court record says.
Ariel Castro's 31-year-old son Anthony, a journalism student who bizarrely/coincidentally wrote an article about Gina DeJesus' disappearance in 2004, says "This is beyond comprehension ... I'm truly stunned right now."
This case just gets more and more mind-blowing and heartbreaking.
[USA Today]
That is shocking. Sadly if the police were called I can see their hands being tied a little if they went out and couldn't see anything that gave them probable cause.
Some things to note, as someone that grew up minutes from this neighborhood...
1) Cops generally don't hang out on calls if they don't see what was going on.
2) Boarded up houses are not uncommon in the area
a) This should have been amended by the fact that people actually knew a legal resident lived in that house, so he should have been cited for violating city ordinances for having his door nailed shut (fire hazard), and windows boarded up (detracts from the value of surrounding homes)
3) The investigation will reveal if such things like Elise Clinton's call actually did occur, if they did, then the cops that dealt with her call should be reprimanded
master of ordinance wrote: Frankly i find myself agreeing with frazzled. These....... scum - i cannot bring myself to call them men - should be executed without hesitation. if this is not an option then have them live the rest of their lives in isolation, no external contact, denada. I dont care what others say these scum are not even worth the trial. Shoot them and be done with it. Or better yet, announce that you are going to place them in the centre of the town they lived in, and you are going to leave them there and let the public do the rest. Mob justice is good justice.
Cleveland would probably sooner lynch the coach of the Cleveland Browns for having a bad football season... :-\
Though I'm sure they could clear up their schedules, it's not like anyone works in my city D:
Alfndrate wrote: Some things to note, as someone that grew up minutes from this neighborhood...
1) Cops generally don't hang out on calls if they don't see what was going on.
2) Boarded up houses are not uncommon in the area
a) This should have been amended by the fact that people actually knew a legal resident lived in that house, so he should have been cited for violating city ordinances for having his door nailed shut (fire hazard), and windows boarded up (detracts from the value of surrounding homes)
3) The investigation will reveal if such things like Elise Clinton's call actually did occur, if they did, then the cops that dealt with her call should be reprimanded
Thank you for the information.
The boarded up houses would not strike me as a red flag, and the violation of city ordinances - is that handled by the police or a civil body?
Police Visit Cleveland House of Horrors Several Times, Fail to Note Horrors
In new news from Cleveland's horrific kidnapping case, neighbors are alleging that they called the police multiple times to the home where Ariel Castro and his two brothers held Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus, and Amanda Berry hostage for ten years. Neighbors claim that even though their calls described chilling scenarios — naked women on leashes crawling on all fours and women pounding on windows — they were either ignored, or the police completed very cursory check-ins.
According to neighbors, the situation at Ariel Castro's house was far from non-stop super fun barbecue parties.
Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away, said her daughter once saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several years ago and called police. "But they didn't take it seriously," she said.
Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of the doors of Castro's house, which had plastic bags on the windows, in November 2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door, but no one answered. "They walked to the side of the house and then left," he said.
Neighbors also said they would sometimes see Ariel Castro walking a little girl to a neighborhood playground. And Cintron said she once saw a little girl looking out of the house's attic window.
Israel Lugo said he, his family and neighbors called police three times between 2011 and 2012 after seeing disturbing things at the home of Ariel Castro. Lugo lives two houses down from Castro and grew suspicious after neighbors reported seeing naked women on leashes crawling on all fours behind Castro's house.
Lugo said about two years ago his sister told him she heard a woman pounding on a window at Castro's home as if she needed help. When his sister looked up, she saw a woman and a baby standing in a window half covered with a wooden plank. His sister told him and Lugo called the police.
But wait, there's more!
A third call came from neighborhood women who lived in an apartment building. Those women told Lugo they called police because they saw three young girls crawling on all fours naked with dog leashes around their necks. Three men were controlling them in the backyard. The women told Lugo they waited two hours but police never responded to the calls.
However, Cleveland officials said they have no record of any calls about criminal activity at the house, but that they are "still combing their records". Ugh.
This is especially heinous news as we learn about the conditions in the house. According Khalid Samad, a former assistant safety director for the city who now works for a crime prevention non-profit, told USA Today law enforcement officials told him the women were beaten while pregnant, with unborn children not surviving, and that there was a dungeon of sorts with chains. All the shudders, forever.
In another intense revelation from this story, Emily Castro, Ariel's daughter, is currently serving 25 years in prison for allegedly slashing her 11-month-old daughter's throat four times in 2007. She then cut her own neck and wrists and attempted to drown herself in a nearby creek. She suffers from manic depression diagnosed when she was 13, the court record says.
Ariel Castro's 31-year-old son Anthony, a journalism student who bizarrely/coincidentally wrote an article about Gina DeJesus' disappearance in 2004, says "This is beyond comprehension ... I'm truly stunned right now."
This case just gets more and more mind-blowing and heartbreaking.
[USA Today]
That is shocking. Sadly if the police were called I can see their hands being tied a little if they went out and couldn't see anything that gave them probable cause.
I can. Naked people being taken around on leashes is at best a public nuisance.
People pounding to get out of a house? Sounds like a fire emergency.
Frazzled wrote: I can. Naked people being taken around on leashes is at best a public nuisance.
People pounding to get out of a house? Sounds like a fire emergency.
Perp 1 "Sorry officer, I didn't realise that our consensual activities were visible to the public. We'll try and not disturb the neighbours next time. Thanks for letting us know, sorry for the inconvenience"
If there's no smoke and no indication of fire or any other probable cause, and no one makes a complaint when the police arrive then can they still enter the premises?
Of course if any officers were negligent in the exercise of their duties they should be reprimanded.
Perp 1 "Sorry officer, I didn't realise that our consensual activities were visible to the public. We'll try and not disturb the neighbours next time. Thanks for letting us know, sorry for the inconvenience"
If there's no smoke and no indication of fire or any other probable cause, and no one makes a complaint when the police arrive then can they still enter the premises?
Of course if any officers were negligent in the exercise of their duties they should be reprimanded.
Certainly sir, if I could speak to the lady in question to ascertain your statement?
Alfndrate wrote: Some things to note, as someone that grew up minutes from this neighborhood...
1) Cops generally don't hang out on calls if they don't see what was going on.
2) Boarded up houses are not uncommon in the area
a) This should have been amended by the fact that people actually knew a legal resident lived in that house, so he should have been cited for violating city ordinances for having his door nailed shut (fire hazard), and windows boarded up (detracts from the value of surrounding homes)
3) The investigation will reveal if such things like Elise Clinton's call actually did occur, if they did, then the cops that dealt with her call should be reprimanded
Thank you for the information.
The boarded up houses would not strike me as a red flag, and the violation of city ordinances - is that handled by the police or a civil body?
Both I believe... Someone I believe would have to report the violation, and then the city sends someone out to give them time to fix it, and if they don't fix it, they cite you until it's fixed.
I know Lakewood (a suburb of Cleveland where I live now) will cite you if your grass is too long. If it's still too long after x number of days, they cite you, cut the grass, and then bill you for the grass cutting.
I also forgot number 4...
4) People in Cleveland from w.100th street all the way over to the east side... tend to not like talking to cops.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Certainly sir, if I could speak to the lady in question to ascertain your statement?
Sadly there are plenty of replies to that;
"I'm sorry, she's not home at the moment"
"She is a casual partner. She left X ago"
etc.
Or if the lady is produced given her brutal and inhumane treatment, not to mention psychological abuse, she may be too scared to say anything to the police that is contrary to what her captor has said
It's easy to play Monday Morning DA after something like this.
They'll be investigating these reports to see if there was a feth up. If so, the officers in questions will not only be punished, but will have to live with that feth up for the rest of their lives.
I don't know about the US, but in some places (the UK comes to mind, unless they've changed the law by now) activities of that nature are illegal even if they're consensual.
Perp 1 "Sorry officer, I didn't realise that our consensual activities were visible to the public. We'll try and not disturb the neighbours next time. Thanks for letting us know, sorry for the inconvenience"
If there's no smoke and no indication of fire or any other probable cause, and no one makes a complaint when the police arrive then can they still enter the premises?
Of course if any officers were negligent in the exercise of their duties they should be reprimanded.
Certainly sir, if I could speak to the lady in question to ascertain your statement?
Exactly. Per the wife, after some experiences, I know in Austin that in incidents of this nature, the other parties were always interviewed. This was policy put in place to make sure the BGs weren't covering up a crime.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: It's easy to play Monday Morning DA after something like this.
They'll be investigating these reports to see if there was a feth up. If so, the officers in questions will not only be punished, but will have to live with that feth up for the rest of their lives.
Guys I'd be willing to be NO ONE knew or made those calls. Remember what all the neighbors said day one? Even Mr. Ramsey, the hero of the day who lived next door and BBQ'd with the perps had no idea. So me personally, I'll let the cops investigate those claims of multiple calls and visits, but my gut reaction is that someone wants their "15 minutes".
If that makes me a savage, hand me a stone axe and a loincloth and point me to the nearest cave.
So Fraz, can I get on my High Horse again?
Only if its a hobby horse. He, like most here, are saying "try them."
Perhaps you forgot where we can not inflict cruel and unusual punishment int he Constitution? That doesn't per se mean the Death penalty, but it sure does mean you can't:
Burn at the Stake
Torture them
Drag them behind your truck
Draw an quarter
etc, etc, etc.
My comment was not about trial, it was about punishments.
Executions were common when the Consitituion was written, have been repeatedly upheld as nonviolative, and have been duly made law. Your personal view is irrelevant.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Guys I'd be willing to be NO ONE knew or made those calls. Remember what all the neighbors said day one? Even Mr. Ramsey, the hero of the day who lived next door and BBQ'd with the perps had no idea. So me personally, I'll let the cops investigate those claims of multiple calls and visits, but my gut reaction is that someone wants their "15 minutes".
This is exactly my feelings as well... The news story doesn't have any evidence behind what people are saying. When the investigation happens, they'll look into it.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Guys I'd be willing to be NO ONE knew or made those calls. Remember what all the neighbors said day one? Even Mr. Ramsey, the hero of the day who lived next door and BBQ'd with the perps had no idea. So me personally, I'll let the cops investigate those claims of multiple calls and visits, but my gut reaction is that someone wants their "15 minutes".
This is exactly my feelings as well... The news story doesn't have any evidence behind what people are saying. When the investigation happens, they'll look into it.
I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
The young Twilight Sparkle avatar makes the hardship line humorous Don't mind me man, it's just an interesting dichotomy.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
The young Twilight Sparkle avatar makes the hardship line humorous Don't mind me man, it's just an interesting dichotomy.
he's a fragile flower that thinks the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. Someone get him a kleenex!
As I stated before. We aren't talking about the Death Penalty per se. However, the way the punishment of a duly tried and convicted criminal is carried out.
Granted the wording of the Consititution is a bit vague:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
However, I think most of us can understand that some of the punishments advocated in this thread do not fit this criteria. A legal execution by lethal injection (or some other means based on State Laws) is NOT what he is talking about. It has nothing to do with being a "fragile Flower" but everythign to do with the rule of law.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
The young Twilight Sparkle avatar makes the hardship line humorous Don't mind me man, it's just an interesting dichotomy.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
The young Twilight Sparkle avatar makes the hardship line humorous Don't mind me man, it's just an interesting dichotomy.
Indeed, we all know purple Bronies are the wussies of the Bronie world. Now red Bronies, they're positively Russian. They KNOW hardship. For the Motherland!
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hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
Thats not cruel thats a up. By that argument no one could be punished, because there's always the chance of an innoicent women and therefore all modes of punishment are cruel.
he's a fragile flower that thinks the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment. Someone get him a kleenex!
As I stated before. We aren't talking about the Death Penalty per se. However, the way the punishment of a duly tried and convicted criminal is carried out.
Granted the wording of the Consititution is a bit vague:
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
However, I think most of us can understand that some of the punishments advocated in this thread do not fit this criteria. A legal execution by lethal injection (or some other means based on State Laws) is NOT what he is talking about. It has nothing to do with being a "fragile Flower" but everythign to do with the rule of law.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
The young Twilight Sparkle avatar makes the hardship line humorous Don't mind me man, it's just an interesting dichotomy.
Indeed, we all know purple Bronies are the wussies of the Bronie world. Now red Bronies, they're positively Russian. They KNOW hardship. For the Motherland!
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
Thats not cruel thats a up. By that argument no one could be punished, because there's always the chance of an innoicent women and therefore all modes of punishment are cruel.
You can ALWAY say *Whoops* and give compensation for time loss with prison.
Not with death penalty.
And no, Purple=Manly, Remember Fulgrim?
I personally do encourage working within the law whenever possible, and feel the laws certainly do have punishment for this type of crime, but since the victims were not transported across state lines, this is not a federal case, and so the 8th Amendment would not apply. The federal government will not be punishing these individuals at all. Thus, even if the good state of Ohio chose to immolate its newfound celebrity criminals, it would not be at all related to the Constitution or constitutional rights.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
Thats not cruel thats a up. By that argument no one could be punished, because there's always the chance of an innoicent women and therefore all modes of punishment are cruel.
You can ALWAY say *Whoops* and give compensation for time loss with prison.
Not with death penalty.
And no, Purple=Manly, Remember Fulgrim?
really, you can give compensation for years of your life, for potentially nonvoluntary funtime with your cellmate, etc. etc?
If you want to say you're opposed to the death penalty on the grounds its permanent, thats one thing and a valid argument. Saying its unconstitutional and going off like you're morally superior is another.
Frazzled wrote: No he's arguing executiion itself falls under 'cruel and unusual.' Evidently you seem to be as well.
You are right. He was arguing that any execution is bad. My mistake.
However, I am not. I'm arguing that many of the methods advocated for execution in this thread are clearly unconstitutional. People love to advocate for these types of unconstitutional things. Meanwhile they are also advocating for the overarching immutability of other Amendaments to the constitution. Hence, perhaps some of these peopel don't value the constitution as much as they thought they did?
That is why i oppose it, it is permanent. I think i may e getting my arguments mixed up
I think the death penalty is ok, FOR cases of murder only.
I also think that anyform of administaring it that is painful in anyway(Which IMO is cruel) is wrong and makes us just as in the wrong at them.
I do think Immolating, castrating and many other suggested methods of execution in this thread are cruel.
Frazzled wrote: No he's arguing executiion itself falls under 'cruel and unusual.' Evidently you seem to be as well.
You are right. He was arguing that any execution is bad. My mistake.
However, I am not. I'm arguing that many of the methods advocated for execution in this thread are clearly unconstitutional. People love to advocate for these types of unconstitutional things. Meanwhile they are also advocating for the overarching immutability of other Amendaments to the constitution. Hence, perhaps some of these peopel don't value the constitution as much as they thought they did?
I think you're taking this internet thing too seriously. I don't think people are advocating unconstitutional methods of execution, just venting at the horror. So again, getteth off thine high horse.
hotsauceman1 wrote: That is why i oppose it, it is permanent. I think i may e getting my arguments mixed up
I think the death penalty is ok, FOR cases of murder only.
I also think that anyform of administaring it that is painful in anyway(Which IMO is cruel) is wrong and makes us just as in the wrong at them.
I do think Immolating, castrating and many other suggested methods of execution in this thread are cruel.
So what do you think the penalty for robbing 36 years of life and freedom?
I don't disagree. Thankfully they also included a process to change the Constitution if it was needed.
Feel free to start the process of getting the 8th Amendment struck from the document.
You should stop appealing to their infallibility then.
I didn't. I just pointed out that it is the law of the land, and there are some states that allow execution by certain means. These means have been legally approved. If we are a country of laws, then we follow should follow the laws we created.
Otherwise, why bother with this whole society business? I would have to wear the loin cloth and wield a stone axe right with you.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do think it is cruel because it is one that can never e reversed. If you screw up and execute the wrong person, it can never be taken back.
And i am no flower, I have had my share of hardship.
The young Twilight Sparkle avatar makes the hardship line humorous Don't mind me man, it's just an interesting dichotomy.
Indeed, we all know purple Bronies are the wussies of the Bronie world. Now red Bronies, they're positively Russian. They KNOW hardship. For the Motherland!
Yes, yes it is... Somewhere I may also have that image with a santa hat (Ouze definitely has it since he photoshopped it for me).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Good news! The state saves on incarceration! The police have determined that Ariel Castro's brothers had nothing to do with this.
I didn't. I just pointed out that it is the law of the land, and there are some states that allow execution by certain means. These means have been legally approved. If we are a country of laws, then we follow should follow the laws we created.
Otherwise, why bother with this whole society business? I would have to wear the loin cloth and wield a stone axe right with you.
I recall a self-professed Vampire that ran for office, and part of his platform was to condemn child molesters to death by impaling. Not sure why this thread reminded me of that.
I may, based on this conversation, write my congressman and ask if we can burn people at the stake in instances such as the ones being discussed in this thread. I'm sure it would pass the house of representatives.
Capital punishment is gak it's more expensive than being sentenced to life in prison, has little to no effect on deterring crime, innocent people are sometimes killed because of it, it's barbaric and you're potentially getting rid of a person who if rehabilitated properly might have become a
Cheesecat wrote: Capital punishment is gak it's more expensive than being sentenced to life in prison, has little to no effect on deterring crime, innocent people are sometimes killed because of it, it's barbaric and you're potentially getting rid of a person who if rehabilitated properly might have become a law-abiding contributing member of society.
It ends up being more expensive because of the many legal appeals, clemency appeals etc. that take place before the execution. Also many of those sentenced to death would be serving life without parole in the alternative, so I don't see how they can be a "law-abiding contributing member of society".
Monster Rain wrote: Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.
The fact that america has so bad a prison policy that many people who do come in just get trained by criminals for more crime. Like it or not, We cant lock someone up for life or kill them for stolen good. You have to rehabilitate them or they will come back.
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people
Monster Rain wrote: Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.
The fact that america has so bad a prison policy that many people who do come in just get trained by criminals for more crime. Like it or not, We cant lock someone up for life or kill them for stolen good. You have to rehabilitate them or they will come back.
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people
I don't suppose the fact that there is an application process to go to that prison has any bearing on the numbers stated in that article.
Ignoring the biases of the publication you quoted you might like to note the different social, political, legal and cultural landscape of Norway.
The Guardian's position on US prisons, the death penalty and life on parole can be summed up as follows;
States that execute people, a process that takes years after jumping through every legal loophole, are cruel and barbaric and its far too costly.
&
States that imprison people for lengthy periods because they committed a crime (usually when someone else has lost their life) is far too expensive and a drain on society.
Not to mention that their opinion pieces are often littered with inconsistencies, incorrect or just downright misleading information that the community routinely calls them out on
Citation needed, although I should have been more specific in my initial post, rehab where possible not everyone can properly reintegrate into society.
Monster Rain wrote: Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to see you attempt to support that claim.
The fact that america has so bad a prison policy that many people who do come in just get trained by criminals for more crime. Like it or not, We cant lock someone up for life or kill them for stolen good. You have to rehabilitate them or they will come back.
Norway does it pretty well
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-inmates-treated-like-people
I don't suppose the fact that there is an application process to go to that prison has any bearing on the numbers stated in that article.
Cheesecat wrote: Capital punishment is gak it's more expensive than being sentenced to life in prison, has little to no effect on deterring crime, innocent people are sometimes killed because of it, it's barbaric and you're potentially getting rid of a person who if rehabilitated properly might have become a law-abiding contributing member of society.
It ends up being more expensive because of the many legal appeals, clemency appeals etc. that take place before the execution. Also many of those sentenced to death would be serving life without parole in the alternative, so I don't see how they can be a "law-abiding contributing member of society".
I think capital punishment has to be expensive as you're sentencing someone to death so you want the best resources available. But the second part is true but still I would rather have people locked for life then have them executed only to find out later that they were innocent..
These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.
I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.
Violence begets more violence. You killing people for "Justice(I refuse to call it that because killing isn't justice) is just a disgusting. You are looking to see these men dead to satisfy your urge to see harm inflicted on them. Not justice, HARM. do they deserve it? In all likelyhood, yes they do. But you need to take a stand and say "No, I will not harm another person for my perverted sense of justice. I will be better then these men"
timetowaste85 wrote: These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.
I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.
Satisfy my urge to see harm? Best check your tone. I'd be happy to see nobody in life get hurt, but unfortunately men like these exist. It's not out of bloodthirstiness, it's out of pragmatism. Nowhere do I mention lighting them on fire, ripping them apart, feeding them to sharks, or anything else-just that they need to be removed. I don't care how they do it, but it's something that needs to be done. I hope that you'd feel differently if it was your sister they held in captivity for a decade. I direct you back to the final sentence of my first paragraph.
The second we rationalize killing people out of pragmatism is the second we stop seeing people as people and as animals. These people may be scum. But we will start seeing ALL humans as animals if we go down this path.] And I hate my sister.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The second we rationalize killing people out of pragmatism is the second we stop seeing people as people and as animals.
These people may be scum. But we will start seeing ALL humans as animals if we go down this path. Like the nazis.
timetowaste85 wrote: These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.
I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.
Overwhelming proof of their innocence was not presented at their original trial. Their original trial was a miscarriage of justice, and the fact that they weren't executed is what gave them time to prove their innocence.
I'm absolutely certain that many people felt equally strongly that "vengeance" was justified against them for being child killers, despite the truth being that they were innocent.
Many people believe that the death penalty is inherently unjust, in large part because there are many cases where guilt is not so clear, or only initially appears clear, and death is something you can't take back. I might like to see a given scumbag criminal dead, or might personally feel that vengeance is justified, as a society we've got an obligation to attempt to be better than our desire for vengeance.
Opining that people who disagree with the death penalty are spineless is pretty insulting, and I'd like to ask that my fellow Dakkanauts try to be a little more respectful and open-minded than that. If you can't argue your position and attempt to convince people that you're correct without insulting them, then you shouldn't be posting in OT.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The second we rationalize killing people out of pragmatism is the second we stop seeing people as people and as animals. These people may be scum. But we will start seeing ALL humans as animals if we go down this path. Like the nazis.
And I hate my sister.
That's a slippery slope.
He wants to pretend he lives in a land of sunshine and sparkles.
And Hotsauce, even if you hate your sister, I hope you'd have the decency to be extremely enraged if something like this happened to her. If you didn't, then that's even more disgusting of you.
I do, I would be pissed. But i would be more concerned with her well being to care about the scum.
Let me put it why i think the execution idea is wrong.
I think, that by use wanting to kill someone out of vengeance is a slippery slope. I do not think it comes out of pragmatism in the slightest, I think it comes from a primal urge to see harm inflicted on others for wrong doings. I do not think this is different from what the criminals did or do. Because it is from a "Justice" standpoint does not mean it is excusable. Lots of horrible horrible things have been done in the name of justice, war. The path to hell is paved with good intentions.
timetowaste85 wrote: These three males (I agree, and refuse to call them men) are disgusting and don't deserve the life they were given. They should not have been put on this earth, and in reality, need to be sent back off of it. For those 2 or 3 of you in the thread getting squeamish, grow up: nobody is talking about going around, senselessly killing people and reverting to cavemen times: we're talking about permanently getting rid of life-threatening creatures so that nobody else will chance suffering at their hands. Is there vengeance involved? Yes, nobody here will deny that. But the fact that you want to take a stand and look appalled at everyone looking out for their fellow man (or in this case, woman) by having these living pieces of garbage not removed...it's you guys who are disgusting. I won't name names-you each know who you are. Accept the fact that these guys deserve to visit the great beyond. I'm like Frazzled-I love to joke in my posts, but here, I'm not. These creatures need to go, and you guys need a spine.
I'm also not in favor of auto death penalties as RITides brought up-check out the West Memphis 3 case: three innocent guys, almost given the death penalty despite overwhelming proof of their innocence. Finally went free last year after 15+ years on death row. However, in this Ohio case there's overwhelming proof of guilt-these filthy mongrels don't deserve to continue living.
Apparently there isn't. Overwhelming proof, that is, for at least two of the three.
I'm sure you mean Rehab for those who commit heinous crimes is a fantasy and you're not talking about things like white-collar crimes. Right?
I dunno have you seen your tax statements recently? I should have limited my statement to violent offenders/kidnappers. The truly fethed up individuals.
As to humans being animals, hotsauce we are animals. An extremely smart, ruthless animal that has dominated it's planet against all comers despite possessing no natural advantage except walking on two legs, thumbs and a larger then average brain. An animal all the same. So I have no problem with putting down a member of our species that has proven it cannot live healthily amongst us. Murderers, rapists, child molesters, the guy who's the subject of this thread. They deserve their day in court, maybe even a couple, with all the best investigative techniques, newest forensic technology and all the evidence that can be found for or against their innocence and to be tried by a jury of their peers. If it's then determined that they need to be "removed" then good. Make it quick, painless and efficient, death has proven to be 100% effective in preventing repeat offenders. If the family takes some small satisfaction in vengeance from the execution good for them, I wish them peace and solace as they continue on without what they've lost. It has no bearing to me, or the belief that certain crimes warrant the highest punishment we can give as a species that dies.
And I disagree, and animals with rational thought, We should not revert to old patterns.But there is not point, we are beating a dead pony, no one is going to convince the other.
Remember, Onil and Pedro Castro have been cleared of any charges in relation to this situation. The police have determined that they had no idea as to what their brother was doing. Granted they will probably still see some time behind bars because they had other warrants out for their arrest
I didn't. I just pointed out that it is the law of the land, and there are some states that allow execution by certain means. These means have been legally approved. If we are a country of laws, then we follow should follow the laws we created.
Otherwise, why bother with this whole society business? I would have to wear the loin cloth and wield a stone axe right with you.
I recall a self-professed Vampire that ran for office, and part of his platform was to condemn child molesters to death by impaling. Not sure why this thread reminded me of that.
I may, based on this conversation, write my congressman and ask if we can burn people at the stake in instances such as the ones being discussed in this thread. I'm sure it would pass the house of representatives.
For some reason I read that as "bum people at the stake".
I didn't. I just pointed out that it is the law of the land, and there are some states that allow execution by certain means. These means have been legally approved. If we are a country of laws, then we follow should follow the laws we created.
Otherwise, why bother with this whole society business? I would have to wear the loin cloth and wield a stone axe right with you.
I recall a self-professed Vampire that ran for office, and part of his platform was to condemn child molesters to death by impaling. Not sure why this thread reminded me of that.
I may, based on this conversation, write my congressman and ask if we can burn people at the stake in instances such as the ones being discussed in this thread. I'm sure it would pass the house of representatives.
For some reason I read that as "bum people at the stake".
Let me put it why i think the execution idea is wrong.
I think, that by use wanting to kill someone out of vengeance is a slippery slope. I do not think it comes out of pragmatism in the slightest, I think it comes from a primal urge to see harm inflicted on others for wrong doings.
Well, I'm glad your predetermination into others motivations are settled then. You're wrong, of course, but keep telling yourself that.
By the way, just another example of how imprisoning someone forever is worse than death, Jodi Arias stated, after being convicted, "I said years ago that I'd rather get death than life, and that still is true today, I believe death is the ultimate freedom, so I'd rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it."
It seems to me that forcing someone to live 25+ years in a cage is far crueler and less humane than just killing them. Of course, when she said this, you know what the authorities did? They put her on suicide watch. Because clearly we need to punish her in a way of our choosing, rather than allow her to be done with it.
American Prisons are really worthless at rehabilitation, because there is no incentive to rehabilitate. The incentive is to keep prisoners coming back, because repeat customer = big $$$$ for the prison system.
I'm sure you mean Rehab for those who commit heinous crimes is a fantasy and you're not talking about things like white-collar crimes. Right?
I dunno have you seen your tax statements recently? I should have limited my statement to violent offenders/kidnappers. The truly fethed up individuals.
As to humans being animals, hotsauce we are animals. An extremely smart, ruthless animal that has dominated it's planet against all comers despite possessing no natural advantage except walking on two legs, thumbs and a larger then average brain. An animal all the same. So I have no problem with putting down a member of our species that has proven it cannot live healthily amongst us. Murderers, rapists, child molesters, the guy who's the subject of this thread. They deserve their day in court, maybe even a couple, with all the best investigative techniques, newest forensic technology and all the evidence that can be found for or against their innocence and to be tried by a jury of their peers. If it's then determined that they need to be "removed" then good. Make it quick, painless and efficient, death has proven to be 100% effective in preventing repeat offenders. If the family takes some small satisfaction in vengeance from the execution good for them, I wish them peace and solace as they continue on without what they've lost. It has no bearing to me, or the belief that certain crimes warrant the highest punishment we can give as a species that dies.
Instead of all these clever ways of executing them, perhaps I have a better solution... just put him/them in GenPop. And before he/they end up there have the tv's on the news channels showing these thing's faces... and which prison they're going to. Death is too good for people who do things like this. I've dealt first hand with women who've been raped, and never as badly as this... what those poor women were forced to go through... there is no punishment severe enough to fit a crime like this. But in a way Hotsauce is right. We're better than all this. I would fully support the death penalty in cases like this, and others where there is 110% proof that they did this. From a confession and the further evidence to go with it, or simply the sort of evidence that can't be denied. And as sad as it is that people get jailed and executed for crimes they didn't commit, to me it's just as sad, if not more so, when someone get's 'let out on good behaviour' and re-offends. Often with the added bonus of more dead bodies, broken families and destroyed victims. Compare the violent re-offence rates with dead or raped victims to 'poor bastards getting the shaft' rate. Then double the innocent person executed. I'll be willing to bet that you still won't get close to as many innocent men jailed/killed as victims from people who should have been executed in the first place.
Let's get off of the three guys that did this. It was and always been 1 guy, Ariel Castro. His brothers had nothing to do with this. Please, let's amend and focus our hate.
Alfndrate wrote: Let's get off of the three guys that did this. It was and always been 1 guy, Ariel Castro. His brothers had nothing to do with this. Please, let's amend and focus our hate.
Alf-
How far is Lakewood from where this happened? I know it's up there in the Cleveland burbs but wasn't sure how far outlying it was.
Alfndrate wrote: Let's get off of the three guys that did this. It was and always been 1 guy, Ariel Castro. His brothers had nothing to do with this. Please, let's amend and focus our hate.
Alf-
How far is Lakewood from where this happened? I know it's up there in the Cleveland burbs but wasn't sure how far outlying it was.
It's like 4 miles from 2200 Seymour Ave (the block that this took place on) to the border of Lakewood. It's 2 miles from where I grew up (the W. 98th area of Cleveland).
I still go down by Seymour every Thanksgiving at my cousin's house (he lives about 10 streets away).
It's pretty close. Lakewood is literally surrounded by Cleveland in terms of suburbs.
Farthest left is roughly the neighborhood I live in now. The next 2 along W. 117th is the border of Cleveland and Lakewood, the next one moving right is right around where I grew up as a child, and the farthest mark to the right is the 2200 block of Seymour Ave.
Murdering 5 of your own children by beating their mother while they are in the womb and starving her actually is, in my mind, more horrible than the 3 girls being imprisoned and raped for that long. And short of it happening to even more girls, I didn't think anything could top that.
Every time I think this is the most disgusting story I've ever read, it just goes and gets worse.
Ohio prosecutors may seek execution for Ariel Castro
Ohio prosecutors have said they plan to seek aggravated murder charges that could carry the death penalty against the man suspected of imprisoning three women for about a decade.
The charges relate to alleged forced miscarriages suffered by one victim.
Ariel Castro, 52, was arraigned in court earlier for the kidnap and rape of Amanda Berry, 27, Gina DeJesus, 23 and Michelle Knight, 32.
Ms Berry escaped on Monday and was able to raise the alarm.
'Torture chamber'
On Thursday, Cuyahoga County prosecutor Tim McGinty said the murder charges were based on evidence from Michelle Knight that Mr Castro had impregnated her, then physically abused and starved her in order to induce five miscarriages while she was being held captive in his house in Cleveland.
"I fully intend to seek charges for each and every act of sexual violence, rape, each day of kidnapping, every felonious assault, all his attempted murders, and each act of aggravated murder he committed by terminating pregnancies that the offender perpetuated against the hostages," Mr McGinty told a news conference.
"My office will also engage in a formal process in which we evaluate to seek charges eligible for the death penalty.
"This child kidnapper operated a torture chamber and private prison in the heart of our city," he added.
Earlier in the day, Mr Castro appeared in court in Cleveland, handcuffed and dressed in blue overalls. He did not enter a plea.
He is charged with four counts of kidnapping, covering the three initial abduction victims and Jocelyn, Ms Berry's six-year-old daughter, who was apparently conceived and born in captivity.
The former school bus driver also faces three counts of rape, one against each woman.
'Sick son'
Bail was set at $8m (£5.1m), meaning he will remain in custody.
He has been placed on suicide watch and will be kept in isolation, his court-appointed lawyer Kathleen DeMetz told reporters.
According to CBS News, Mr Castro confessed to his crimes in a long, hand-written letter found in the house, which investigators believe may have been intended as a suicide note.
In the 2004-dated letter he said he had been raped as a child by his uncle and was also abused by his parents, a law enforcement source told the US network.
Mr Castro reportedly called himself a "sexual predator", but he also asked to donate all his money to his victims after his death.
Meanwhile, Mr Castro's mother asked for forgiveness from her son's alleged victims.
"I have a sick son who has committed something very grave. I'm suffering very much," Lillian Rodriguez told reporters on Thursday. "May those young ladies forgive me."
Ariel Castro's two brothers, Pedro and Onil, also appeared in court on unrelated charges. They had been arrested, but police found no evidence linking them to the crime.
Pedro Castro was fined $100 for public drinking, while two minor counts against Onil Castro were dropped.
On Thursday, Mr Castro's daughter, Arlene, who was one of the last people to see Gina DeJesus before she disappeared in 2004 aged 14, wept during a TV interview.
Describing herself as "disappointed, embarrassed, mainly devastated", she apologised to Ms DeJesus
The three women were all abducted after accepting rides from Mr Castro, according to a leaked police report.
They told officials they could only remember being outside twice during their time in captivity.
Cleveland City Councilman Brian Cummins said the women had told police they had only gone as far as a garage on the property, disguised in wigs and hats.
Mr Cummins, citing police information, said the victims had been kept apart inside the house until their captor felt he had enough control to allow them to mingle.
Ms Berry, whose disappearance in 2003 the day before her 17th birthday was widely publicised in the local media, returned to her sister's home on Wednesday.
A few hours later, Gina DeJesus, who went missing in 2004 at the age of 14, was also brought home.
Ms Knight, who was 20 when she disappeared in 2002, remains in hospital, in a good condition.
Wonder how hard the burden of proof will be for those forced miscarriages. Are doctors able to tell that? Or is is basically her word? Not that I doubt it...but the whole reasonable doubt thing could come into play.
Can he even get murder charge from that?
Something like that(Forced miscarriage) happened around here, but the most the man got was an "Unlawful Abortion" charge because they couldnt prove that it was when the fetus was viable.
Still, that poor girl, I wonder how many times he did that to her, I wish her the best.
WTH can go through some mens minds I dont know.
I remember that case. But wasnt that when the baby was proveen to be viable(8 months).
I guess we will have to see, Different places=Different Laws and precedents.
Bit of an update:
Onil and Pedro Castro are idiots . They admitted last night in an interview that when they would visit their brother (at the house where these girls were being kept), they were only allowed into the kitchen, and he would always be playing loud music. Not once did these two question their brother....
I do, simply because these guys don't seem smart enough to inquire about why they are only EVER allowed in the kitchen and why they only ever drink a little booze and listen to loud music. I believe the same thing was corroborated by Ariel Castro's daughter too.
Alfndrate wrote: Bit of an update:
Onil and Pedro Castro are idiots . They admitted last night in an interview that when they would visit their brother (at the house where these girls were being kept), they were only allowed into the kitchen, and he would always be playing loud music. Not once did these two question their brother....
Sure, I might be like (This guy is up to smomething shady) but I would not expect it to be kidnapping and slavery! I would think, he's growing Pot in the basement, got illegal chickens, or possibly some sort of small time crime. Unless I had something real solid, I wouldn't do much about it either. He's my brother after all.
You don't keep chickens in the basement. At the Houston house the neighbor behind us keeps chickens that range around. occasionally one flies into our yard. Thats when Rusty the tank dog puts on the hockey mask and says "welcome to the Terrordome." Its not pretty after that.
ing beer.
