+++EDIT+++
Funded!
Into the stretch goals now.


DEFEAT IN DETAIL

Troublemaker games are looking for funding on a 6mm plastics sprue campaign – called DEFEAT IN DETAIL.

These would be good for games like Future War Commander and, of course, GW's Epic. With the plug finally pulled on my favourite 6mm line, this is good news to see a potential future.

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/6mm-scale-armies
It's currently a dual army sprue of little army guys and axe-wielding brutes. With sufficient funds, Troublemaker want to split the sprue into two, one for each army.

Stretch goals will:

Ideally, as pledges grow, I'd like to start swapping figures. So three aliens will become little slaves, three will become leaders, two will aquire heavy guns, etc. Also, plastic scenery & metal tanks. :-)

...and there will be metal additions to increase the versatility of the vehicles on the sprue:

Oh, on additional turret options, that's definitely inline to happen - the human IFV has been designed so that other weapons (cast in metal) can be plugged on to it, so artillery versions, AA vehicles, flame tanks, etc, all are possible.

My idea was that if we hit the initial target, I'll unlock those metal addons, both as separate purchases, and as combined sets.
For example (prices plucked at random from the air, I've not run the numbers on them yet):
- £6 - 5x Artillery addons for the human IFV
- £15 - 3x Artillery addons for the human IFV & 3x Plastic Sprues
- 1 only - £40 - 5x Artillery addons for the human IFV & 5x Plastic sprues, plus you get naming rights for the Artillery vehicle.

A future stretch goal includes this rather spiffy tank:


...and another is a set of rules based on their fantastic Timeline 300 game, designed for their cool 10mm Steampunk range.

Good to see people stepping up to the plate to serve the 6mm fans, who'd have thought there'd be a market for stuff like this?

Very interesting. The base pledge is actually quite appealing.
140 infantry and 10 tanks for 35 bucks or so.

From the discussion thread on Tactical Command (http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=25146), it looks like there's some exciting stuff coming up

Also, the campaign's been updated with stretch goal pathways.

Stretch Goals Pathway

Here's our current pathway for funding:

- £2250 - Initial Goal.
- £3500 - Plastic Terrain.
- £8000 - Create three separate new Sprues (one human, one alien, and a third sprue of just bases - we'll also keep the original combined sprue available too).
- £onwards - Extra model types.

If as we unlock further stretch goals, you want to change your pledge over from the early mixed sprue to a different plastic sprue, you'll be able to do that.

We'll probably be scattering in a few smaller goals as we go along, too.

And finally, if we get to at least the Plastic Terrain stage, we'll be releasing a boxed game set, with a rules system, dice, lots of models (including a few metal ones) & plastic scenery, all in one combined bundle.

Sounds great to me – and plastic scenery is a great surprise!

This was already posted, but your OP is a lot better and you seem more interested in keeping the thread updated as the campaign progresses, so lets stick with this one.

I'll copy my post over from the other thread:

Wow, really cool kickstarter, and only £22 to get a decent little army pack.

Thanks for sharing, this is awesome.

Not often you see something with hard plastic sprues, especially at this scale!

I see from the description that these are the people who did all the 3d sculpts for Mantic lately (the deadzone terrain, men-at-arms, dreadball robots), which is awesome.. they're great sculptors.

This has over 40 days to run, so I'm pretty sure I'll be able to find at least £22 for this at some point.

The £150 pledges to name the human and alien factions have massive potential for trolling. :p

Interesting. I'm not entirely sure it's worth buying into for what you get, but it might be worth funding just to get more 6mm stuff being made. I'll have to keep an eye on it.

This was already posted, but your OP is a lot better and you seem more interested in keeping the thread updated as the campaign progresses, so lets stick with this one.

(This one was up first – if only barely! )

+++

Interesting. I'm not entirely sure it's worth buying into for what you get, but it might be worth funding just to get more 6mm stuff being made. I'll have to keep an eye on it.

That's very much my view of it at the moment.

I like the models, but I'm mainly pledging to show my support for the concept. Current discussion on the TacComms thread (and the Indiegogo site) seems to imply that if the target is met, the first stretch will be for a separate base sprue.

This will mean that the space on the model sprue will be replaced with many more models. Judging from the space there, it'll double the models you receive, which will go a long way to improving the value of the initial buy-in.

What I'm more excited by are the bolt-ons – Troublemaker are talking about small metal sprues with different sculpts on. These'll be available as add-ons to pledges, but with sufficient funding, might find themselves on the main sprue.

Apparently, it's £600 to get a single sculpt on to the sprue; but then free to duplicate it as many times as you wish – hence the monopose models. If sufficient stretches are reached, additional sculpts – like small alien slaves, heavy weapons and the like – will find themselves on the sprue. The potential value's great, and I've got a lot of good experience in buying from Troublemaker.

As scarletsquig says:

I see from the description that these are the people who did all the 3d sculpts for Mantic lately (the deadzone terrain, men-at-arms, dreadball robots), which is awesome.. they're great sculptors.

+++Edit+++
From the horse's mouth:

We’ll have info on splitting off the bases from the sprue on the page tonight, but the short version is that if we hit £3500 funding, the Defeat In Detail box will contain more infantry & tanks, plus separate bases, for no extra cost to you.

I like the idea.

I am not sure how it costs 'more' to add a sculpt to a sprue. Tooling a sprue should cost the same regardless of how varied the design is it seems. Machining a sprue off a 3D design should care how varied the computer model is.

I was a bit confused by that, too. Here's the explanation from Ben at Troublemaker, replying to the same query on the TacComms forum:

Quote:
Really!? What's the reason for that initial cost? Just tooling the mould? Does it involve addition to the 14 already there or simply replacing some of them with the new pose?

Allow me to clarify- £600 to setup the machine to cut the tool with a particular sculpt, and then you can cut that sculpt into the tool as many times as you like. So £600 (after paypal fees etc.) would let us do 7x pose A & 7x pose B, instead of 14x pose A.

We could also cut that sculpt onto a completely different sprue tool, and it wouldn't cost anything above and beyond what the basic tool costs. So we could do a tool of 40x Pose A and 40x Pose B at some point down the line for a (relatively) low setup cost.

Or indeed, a tool of 20x Pose A, 25x Pose B, & 4x IFV's... and that's the point at which we invest in a totally separate sprue of bases.

But yeah, after a while you definitely get diminishing returns and you're better off setting up a new tool than you are trying to add one more infantry pose type onto a sprue that already has 10 poses on it.

So I guess it isn't machine time or wear, but the cost of programming the machine to do complex cutting into the metal.

Still seems odd to me. But I may get a few for my orks.

So I guess it isn't machine time or wear, but the cost of programming the machine to do complex cutting into the metal.

Yup - it's all about setting the machine up to do the complex micro-surgery-like motions to cut the steel.
Once that's been done once, we can tell the machine to do it as many times as we want until we run out of metal to cut... then it's only a few thousand more to get an entirely new piece of metal treated & prepared and we can cut it again...

...we have our Stretch Goal #1 sorted out now - At £3500 we can do both the separate bases sprue, and this improved infantry & tanks sprue:


Meaning everyone who pledges for the basic sprue, will get 20% more miniatures for no extra cost if we pass £3500.

Two thirds of the way to the target now.
Hopefully the weekend will see £2250 reached, so we can see the stretch goals

Very cool, will definitely be behind this one!

It's hard to tell exactly, but the human troopers look perhaps something similar to a scaled down Mantic Corporation trooper (or by extension, the old Epic IG, and Rogue Trooper-era IG)?

Quite funny reading the Tactical Command thread, about people having spent all of their hobby money this month on buying the last of the officially sold Epic stuff. If true, a good move making it a slightly longer running time for the campaign, and you would have to expect pledges to jump up dramatically towards the end of June!

The campaign passed 80% funding this morning, and the (as-yet-unnamed) alien vehicle has received a facelift to make it look a bit more rough-and-ready.





Troublemaker games have also shuffled around the perks, so have a look and see if there's one that catches your fancy:

£22/$34 – One box (remember that the number of figures for everyone jumps up once the first stretch goal is reached)
£42/$63 – Two boxes
£63/$94 – One box and three resin copies of a custom human or alien figure, that you design in consultation with Troublemaker.
£82/$125 – Four boxes
£122/$186 – Six Boxes
£125/$190 – Four boxes, and you get to name either the human or alien vehicle.
£150/$228 – Four boxes, and you get to name either the human or alien faction, plus three resin copies of a custom human or alien figure, as in the £63/$94 pledge.

+++
There are currently 49 funders. If Troublemaker can find around a dozen more to go in at the lowest pledge level, then the community will get its first plastic 6mm sprue since the mid-90s. Go on – help out

News from the front!
Latest update from the campaign:

Last night we passed £2000 in funding, and as I write this missive we’re currently sitting at slightly over 92% funding for our initial project goal!

To celebrate, we’re unlocking the “Alien Slaves” for purchase with two new Perks – one that simply gives you 80 metal Alien Slaves, and another that gives you 80 metal Alien Slaves, a custom-sculpted Alien Slave Leader, and naming rights for the Alien Slaves’ species… if pre-orders continue to rise high enough, we hope to be able to add an Alien Slave or three to the plastic sprue, too.

Thanks for your continued support, everyone!

You can get these as a perk already – £12 ($18) for eighty of them including UK P&P (+£3 [$4.50] for international postage.)


Really looking forward to seeing what the other perks are. I've seen some very cool previews of this Lanky bomber:

The plane looks good overall, but I feel like the fuselage / body needs more detail to match the tons 'o detail on the wings

 Necros wrote:
The plane looks good overall, but I feel like the fuselage / body needs more detail to match the tons 'o detail on the wings

My initial reaction was 'Holy crap, are they actually going to be able to fit all those details onto a 6mm scale figure?' I suppose it depends on how big the actual miniature is though. Now that you've pointed out the lack of detail on the fuselage, though, that does stand out as a bit odd on contrast to the wings. If they're dealing with a limited number of triangles for their model (I'm not sure what kind of limitations you have with turning 3d models into actual sculpts,) it'd probably be worth shifting some. Then again, it's just a preview. They're probably planning on working on the thing some more.

Here's a more up to date version, with some additional detail on the fuselage:


Having bought some of Troublemaker games' sutff before, I can vouch for their ability to retain the detail of the 3D images. Not quite sure how big this aeroplane is, but looks pretty cool

 Lansirill wrote:

 Necros wrote:
The plane looks good overall, but I feel like the fuselage / body needs more detail to match the tons 'o detail on the wings

... it's just a preview. They're probably planning on working on the thing some more.

Yep, we are planning on adding more detail. In fact we've added extra detail even since the new preview shot that Apologist has posted above.

Not quite sure how big this aeroplane is, but looks pretty cool

Currently it has a length of 7.3cm and a wingspan of 9cm.

Just gone in on this for a box. The one thing that was making me hold off was the fact that I've got no interest in the 'humanoid aliens', but I do really want some human stuff to finally start putting together my Epic IG (had the tanks for years). Is there any word on whether the humans and humanoid aliens will be split onto their own sprues?

Really glad this has funded already, looking forward to seeing what comes next.

Also happy that it has another month to run since I'm totally spent out on other stuff currently.

I might try doing some games of mini-Warpath with the models just for fun. The humans look a *lot* like warpath corporation.

 Riquende wrote:
Is there any word on whether the humans and humanoid aliens will be split onto their own sprues?

One of the later stretches, apparently – though what that stretch goal actually is, is not yet known. Hopefully there'll be an update over the next day or two; I think breaking £3000 (£3184, as I'm posting) deserves an update

Personally, I'm hoping for metal human sprue variants to pop up as buy-ins like the alien slaves – some command figures or alternative riflemen poses, or something. What would you like to see?

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/6mm-scale-armies
+++EDIT+++
Stretch goals reached and announced

Separate base sprue, so if you've ever wanted round plastic bases for 6mm figures, you can get 80 for £15.


Alien bikers


Alien slaves


Updated alien vehicle


Human tanks – £22 for 10!



Human bomber


Advanced sprue
Three of these to a box

New stuff!




£22 gets you 8x AA vehicles, plus 22x bases of plastic infantry. Cool huh?

I feel like I'm going to be adding a bit more to my pledge at some point. I just wish you didn't have to select individual pledges each time with Indiegogo. I bought a single infantry box, and now I'd feel silly buying a second one for another 22 pounds (so total of 44) when there's a 2 for 42 combo. It creates an awkward inertia where I'm reluctant to pledge early, because something better might come along.

Hey Lansirill, let us know if you plump for a second box - and we'll refund you the £2 extra, as if you'd bought the £42 pledge level in the first place. :-)

Are they still planning to make separate human and ork sprues as a stretch goal? It looks like they've stopped mentioning that idea in favor of metal vehicle add ons.

I really don't want to pledge if half of my money is going to be wasted on a faction I don't want.

Are they still planning to make separate human and ork sprues as a stretch goal?

If we get enough pledges, yes.
We'd need to get to about £10k to afford that. If we keep up the average daily pledge to the same level we've achieved so far, we would hit that mark.

We're also planning on offering a (slightly more expensive) Pledge option where we cut up the sprues and send you just 6x the halves you want (rather than 3x complete sprues), if it looks like we're not going to make it to the "split the sprues" funding level.

From the latest Campaign Update:

INCOMING!

Here comes our biggest campaign update to date!

First of all, we’d just like to say thankyou for your continued support, without your financial backing this project would have failed at the first hurdle, and for that vote of confidence we can only be grateful.

Well, I suppose we could send you some toy soldiers, too…

Speaking of toy soldiers, here are our latest Product Additions, all of which are now available as Pledges:

Product Addition: Lancastrian Medium Bomber
They have a length of 7.3cm, and a wingspan of 9.1cm.

Product Addition: Beast Class Superheavy Mobile Bastion
They have a length of 6.1cm, and come with multiple configuration options of Transport, Laser Cannon, and Macro-Howitzer.

Product Addition: Heavy Guns Set
This set will contain two Infantry and IFV plastic sprues, 22x plastic bases, four Braveheart Artillery upgrades, two Alien Laser Cannons, and two Alien Macro-Howitzers.

All in all, a huge update, I think you’d have to agree!

As a final little tidbit, we’ve attached concept art for the “Ultimate” version of the Alien half of the plastic sprue. If we get enough funding, we’d like to add the extra sculpts and poses that can be seen on this sample sprue layout… indeed, we could think up a few more sculpt types we’d like to add too!

As ever, the final variety of figures found on the plastic Infantry & Vehicles sprue will be dependent on the level of funding we receive in this crowdfunding campaign.

Thanks for your time, your consideration, and your continued support.

- The Team @ Troublemaker Games

2x Lancastrians for £18



2x Beast Class Superheavies for £16 (includes one of each superheavy weapon type)





4x Braveheart artillery, 2x Laser Cannon Flatbeds, 2x Macro-Howitzer Flatbeds, and 22x bases of plastic infantry, for £22

Hm... this looks interesting. You could order some vehicles, and then switch the turrets with some Epic Ork stuff from the various generations and have a truly unique Kult of Speed...

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

As the guy who added Timeline 300 to BoardGameGeek's listing, it's good to see TroubleMaker doing this sort of thing.

Epic 40k/Armageddon fans will be happy to see this, too

Now we need crossover rules for them to fight veritechs and Zentradi.

privateer4hire wrote:
As the guy who added Timeline 300 to BoardGameGeek's listing, it's good to see TroubleMaker doing this sort of thing.

Thanks for the thumbs up privateer4hire. :-)

We'll have a rulebook based on our Timeline 300 rules system ready for Beta testing around the time of product launch... we'd love feedback on that when it comes out!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are they still planning to make separate human and ork sprues as a stretch goal? It looks like they've stopped mentioning that idea in favor of metal vehicle add ons.

I really don't want to pledge if half of my money is going to be wasted on a faction I don't want.

We've opened up two new pledge levels today that'll make you happy - the "six half sprues" option.
So now for a modest extra fee that covers our potential to stack up a lot of dead stock, you can Pledge for just Humans or Aliens.

Cheers!

Evil & Chaos wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are they still planning to make separate human and ork sprues as a stretch goal? It looks like they've stopped mentioning that idea in favor of metal vehicle add ons.

I really don't want to pledge if half of my money is going to be wasted on a faction I don't want.

We've opened up two new pledge levels today that'll make you happy - the "six half sprues" option.
So now for a modest extra fee that covers our potential to stack up a lot of dead stock, you can Pledge for just Humans or Aliens.

Cheers!

Okay, see now *that* might get me to pledge, as all I want are the Orks.

...

Just looked again. I want to support this, but 27 British Pound Sterling equals 42 dollars USD! For six sprues, really three because I want the orc halves.

Usually kickstarters give some kinda discount to ordering.

Is there something I'm missing, or are they really this much? I thought plastic was supposed to bring DOWN the cost of figures. This seems more expensive that what Epic stuff goes for on ebay.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 chris_valera wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are they still planning to make separate human and ork sprues as a stretch goal? It looks like they've stopped mentioning that idea in favor of metal vehicle add ons.

I really don't want to pledge if half of my money is going to be wasted on a faction I don't want.

We've opened up two new pledge levels today that'll make you happy - the "six half sprues" option.
So now for a modest extra fee that covers our potential to stack up a lot of dead stock, you can Pledge for just Humans or Aliens.

Cheers!

Okay, see now *that* might get me to pledge, as all I want are the Orks.

...

Just looked again. I want to support this, but 27 British Pound Sterling equals 42 dollars USD! For six sprues, really three because I want the orc halves.

Usually kickstarters give some kinda discount to ordering.

Is there something I'm missing, or are they really this much? I thought plastic was supposed to bring DOWN the cost of figures. This seems more expensive that what Epic stuff goes for on ebay.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Six half sprues of the aliens, not three.

 chris_valera wrote:


Just looked again. I want to support this, but 27 British Pound Sterling equals 42 dollars USD! For six sprues, really three because I want the orc halves.

Usually kickstarters give some kinda discount to ordering.

Is there something I'm missing, or are they really this much? I thought plastic was supposed to bring DOWN the cost of figures. This seems more expensive that what Epic stuff goes for on ebay.
[/url]

That's 12x vehicles, thirty-two bases of infantry, and 12x cannons. Price includes UK postage; Please add £3 for international postage.

Please find me the auctions on ebay that will give you that much for £27, especially over the last few months! (and TBH I think most will say the sprue-bound aliens, and smaller guys, look much better than the old equivalent GW equivalents)

Think that's pretty reasonable..

I'm sorry but we can't price ourselves primarily to compete with the second hand market. No company in the world can do that.
(And as noted above, few eBay auctions for other 6mm armies are going to match our price level in any case)

If you're looking at buying models new, however, 32x bases of infantry (including plastic bases), 12x vehicles and 12x field guns, would cost you well over £27, more like £40-£50 really.

And it'd certainly cost over £25.
Which is what I just dropped the pledge price to, in response to a single (potential) customer's feedback. ;-)


.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
I'm sorry but we can't price ourselves primarily to compete with the second hand market. No company in the world can do that.
(And as noted above, few eBay auctions for other 6mm armies are going to match our price level in any case)

If you're looking at buying models new, however, 32x bases of infantry (including plastic bases), 12x vehicles and 12x field guns, would cost you well over £27, more like £40-£50 really.

And it'd certainly cost over £25.
Which is what I just dropped the pledge price to, in response to a single (potential) customer's feedback. ;-)


.

I meant that ebay auctions for Epic stuff are expensive, and this stuff is as well.

Can we chose to not take the base sprue, and get an extra sprue of infantry instead? That would up the value, as I have no use for the circular base sprues.

The fact that all the add-ons are metal as well is annoying. The grots and bikers would be a must-have in plastic, in metal they're not even worth considering.

Considering what Reaper's kickstarter gave you, and what the various coolminiornot kickstarters gave you, I'm just not seeing the value here.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Can we chose to not take the base sprue, and get an extra sprue of infantry instead? That would up the value, as I have no use for the circular base sprues.

Sure we'd be happy to swap those out for you, just email us as the crowdfunder ends to identify your order and we'll do the swap.

The fact that all the add-ons are metal as well is annoying. The grots and bikers would be a must-have in plastic, in metal they're not even worth considering.

If you have a spare £5000 available, we can do a sprue of plastic bikers for you. :-)

And I don't know if you've noticed, but we're already doing our best to add plastic Gobblers (not "grots") to the sprue (have you seen the new sprue preview on the gallery?).

Considering what Reaper's kickstarter gave you, and what the various coolminiornot kickstarters gave you, I'm just not seeing the value here.

The Reaper kickstarter raised 3.4 million dollars, you can offer a lot with that kind of funding (economies of scale). We have not raised 3.4 million dollars. If we raise 3.4 million dollars, I'm sure we'll give you more freebies. Heck, we'll do that if we reach ten thousand pounds.

Nor are we taking *any* profit from this crowdfunder, in fact we're currently scheduled to make a multi-thousand pound loss in the short term - we're comfortable with that because we believe in the awesomeness of 6mm scifi.

 chris_valera wrote:
I'm just not seeing the value here.

I'm seeing some value in having people producing 6mm figures, which why I've pledged for this.

Also, my primary interest out of this is a batch of plastic ~IG infantry, which I've so far been unable to find anywhere else for a reasonable price. This seems perfect.

Question: I've already pledged and paid for a box of mixed infantry, but now the faction-specific levels are there how do I go about changing to that? Or does Indigogo not support that as you have to pay up front?

If you'd like to upgrade your pledge, add the additional funds as a pledge-free donation, and email us to let us know which upgraded pledge you'd prefer, cheers!

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Sure we'd be happy to swap those out for you, just email us as the crowdfunder ends to identify your order and we'll do the swap.

Alright, cool.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
And I don't know if you've noticed, but we're already doing our best to add plastic Gobblers (not "grots") to the sprue (have you seen the new sprue preview on the gallery?).

I saw it now, yeah, but if you get it as part of your order, it should be displayed on the main page.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
The Reaper kickstarter raised 3.4 million dollars, you can offer a lot with that kind of funding (economies of scale). We have not raised 3.4 million dollars. If we raise 3.4 million dollars, I'm sure we'll give you more freebies. Heck, we'll do that if we reach ten thousand pounds.

Do you guys think you'll reach ten thousand pounds? I want to pledge for this, but the cost just seems egregious. Maybe GW was right to drop Epic, maybe the gamers just aren't there anymore and there's not enough players to support a 6mm game anymore.

Is Exodus Wars really doing that well?

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I'd put some cash into this, but strongly dislike using indiegogo.

*ignores Chris in the hopes that he will go away... *

Also, my primary interest out of this is a batch of plastic ~IG infantry, which I've so far been unable to find anywhere else for a reasonable price. This seems perfect.

Absolutely! Think they have all kinds of uses..

Evil & Chaos - Now that the £6000 has been reached, how soon are we likely to see any new stretch goals?

 Pacific wrote:
*ignores Chris in the hopes that he will go away... *

Heh, that'd be quite rude of me to do the same!

Being serious, I don't think he's being annoying, I just think he doesn't seem to be aware how much 6mm models tend to cost, and he's assuming they should cost 1/5th the price that they really do, or something. :-)

 Pacific wrote:

Evil & Chaos - Now that the £6000 has been reached, how soon are we likely to see any new stretch goals?

I think our major stretch goal at this point can only be to add extra sculpts to the plastic sprue, to offer as much value as possible to our existing pre-order customers.

As to where those extra sculpts exactly get paid for, we're trying to pin that down right now with the factory, and will let everyone know just as soon as they've finished processing our CAD master files. It's my personal belief that we've already achieved and unlocked a few extra sculpts, but I can't confirm anything just yet

 chris_valera wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
And I don't know if you've noticed, but we're already doing our best to add plastic Gobblers (not "grots") to the sprue (have you seen the new sprue preview on the gallery?).

I saw it now, yeah, but if you get it as part of your order, it should be displayed on the main page.

While it remains technically aspirational, we can't afford to promise an unknown quantity of extra investment. We've already put in several thousand pounds worth of investment behind the scenes to get the ball rolling.

There's always been a line about our aspiration to add extra sculpts on the page, but until we get hard numbers locked down we can't offer as confirmed something that may or may not cost us several thousand pounds more than we've already committed to the project. Hope that makes sense.

 chris_valera wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
The Reaper kickstarter raised 3.4 million dollars, you can offer a lot with that kind of funding (economies of scale). We have not raised 3.4 million dollars. If we raise 3.4 million dollars, I'm sure we'll give you more freebies. Heck, we'll do that if we reach ten thousand pounds.

Do you guys think you'll reach ten thousand pounds?

Not a clue. Maybe. Not if everyone remaining who's interested but hasn't pledged to date sits it out waiting for free stuff to appear, heh!

 chris_valera wrote:
I want to pledge for this, but the cost just seems egregious.

Honestly, I think our prices compare very well to every other 6mm manufacturer on the market, as well as second hand prices for 6mm scifi from eBay, even.

For example, buying 32x bases of infantry, 32x plastic bases, 10x APC's, from Exodus Wars, would cost over £40.

On the other hand, our set comes with 32x bases of infantry, 32x plastic bases, 12x APC's, and 6x field guns... and we're selling that for £22, including postage. More, for much less.

If you think that our pricing is egregious, I'm sure I cannot convince you otherwise, but it's good to look at what other companies are asking for the same amount of models - two or even three times the price (once you factor in postage).

 chris_valera wrote:
Maybe GW was right to drop Epic, maybe the gamers just aren't there anymore and there's not enough players to support a 6mm game anymore.

Maybe.
We're funded, though, and that's not nothing.
Any extra funding now means help towards adding extra sculpts to the plastic sprue, which means benefits for everyone.

Is Exodus Wars really doing that well?

No idea.
I've done some freelance sculpting for them, but I'm not privvy to their sales figures.

 scarletsquig wrote:
I'd put some cash into this, but strongly dislike using indiegogo.

Mind if I ask why?
We could arrange a "private pledge" directly via paypal if you'd prefer?
.
.
.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Being serious, I don't think he's being annoying, I just think he doesn't seem to be aware how much 6mm models tend to cost, and he's assuming they should cost 1/5th the price that they really do, or something. :-)

Most kickstarters give you quite the discount, the Reaper kickstarter had crazy value, like $400-500 for a $100 vampire pledge. The Zombicide kickstarters nailed you for full price for the cost of the basic game, but included all sorts of add-ons and a discount on the first "season" of zombicide. Most kickstarters are either a pre-order, or a 50% discount.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Honestly, I think our prices compare very well to every other 6mm manufacturer on the market, as well as second hand prices for 6mm scifi from eBay, even.

For example, buying 32x bases of infantry, 32x plastic bases, 10x APC's, from Exodus Wars, would cost over £40.

But is that plastic or metal? Isn't the cost of plastic supposed to bring prices down?

Evil & Chaos wrote:
On the other hand, our set comes with 32x bases of infantry, 32x plastic bases, 12x APC's, and 6x field guns... and we're selling that for £22, including postage. More, for much less.

If you think that our pricing is egregious, I'm sure I cannot convince you otherwise, but it's good to look at what other companies are asking for the same amount of models - two or even three times the price (once you factor in postage).

But again, is it plastic or metal? And again, for generic, non-GW figures.

The bases mean nothing to me, since I don't like them, other than the fact that I want to trade them out for more infantry.

My point being is that yeah, there's a discount, but it's about on par with what the old 1998 prices on Epic used to be. Which I am okay with paying, sorta. I'd like to pay less, given that it's generic and non-GW, and that plastic is supposed to bring down the cost of figures.

You're nailing customers for the full cost, up front.

The metal molds run basically forever. Would it be so difficult to just run the machine a few extra times and give customers value for their money?

And that before you get into the fact that the aliens and the humans are on the same sprue, the vehicles and infantry are on the same spruie, there's no variation in weapons... etc etc etc.

It seems you guys might have gotten farther if you had thought this through a little more, and had better sprues. Or run off more of them with a pledge.

I like this idea, I really do. I'd like to see a "battlewagon" sprue and an "big guns" sprue and a "warbuggy" sprue. But I'd like the basic sprue to be more well thought out.

You may wanna take the money you make off this, and restart it on kickstarter with a more well thought out sprue design.

Say whatever you want about liberty and union league, but they discuss stuff so endlessly, the end product is very well thought-out.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 chris_valera wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Being serious, I don't think he's being annoying, I just think he doesn't seem to be aware how much 6mm models tend to cost, and he's assuming they should cost 1/5th the price that they really do, or something. :-)

Most kickstarters give you quite the discount, the Reaper kickstarter had crazy value, like $400-500 for a $100 vampire pledge. The Zombicide kickstarters nailed you for full price for the cost of the basic game, but included all sorts of add-ons and a discount on the first "season" of zombicide. Most kickstarters are either a pre-order, or a 50% discount.

Those kickstarters aren't doing plastics, and metals, on an external budget that most companies use for metals alone.
Furthermore, we're actually swallowing much of the postage cost ourselves, so a modest discount is built in for the crowdfunding pre-orders.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Honestly, I think our prices compare very well to every other 6mm manufacturer on the market, as well as second hand prices for 6mm scifi from eBay, even.

For example, buying 32x bases of infantry, 32x plastic bases, 10x APC's, from Exodus Wars, would cost over £40.

But is that plastic or metal? Isn't the cost of plastic supposed to bring prices down?

Plastic does bring down prices, that's why you're getting more models if you buy from us, than if you buy from other companies.

The bases mean nothing to me, since I don't like them, other than the fact that I want to trade them out for more infantry.

Which we've offered you already, so I'm not sure why you're raising the topic of bases, again.

140x human infantry, 140x Alien infantry, 10x human APC's, 10x Alien flatbeds, 10x Alien field guns, £22. (or double the amount of one faction's models for £25).
If you want to pre-order that, awesome, we'd really appreciate your support.

[My point being is that yeah, there's a discount, but it's about on par with what the old 1998 prices on Epic used to be. Which I am okay with paying, sorta. I'd like to pay less, given that it's generic and non-GW, and that plastic is supposed to bring down the cost of figures.

If you want GW models, eBay has plenty of them.

You're nailing customers for the full cost, up front.

Hardly. We've put thousands of pounds into this project behind the scenes.
Do you think that you can get two plastics production tools cut, plus a brace of metal moulds, matter printing of master models, production and distribution costs, within the crowdfunding money raised so far? ***
If you can, you should definitely open a miniatures company of your own.

And that before you get into the fact that the aliens and the humans are on the same sprue, the vehicles and infantry are on the same spruie, there's no variation in weapons... etc etc etc.

Adding extra sculpts costs money (about £600 per sculpt, which works out at more like £1000 in pre-orders for each sculpt when you take out production costs).
We're hoping to add extra sculpts, even so, and have likely unlocked a few already (we're discussing this with the factory right now).

I like this idea, I really do. I'd like to see a "battlewagon" sprue and an "big guns" sprue and a "warbuggy" sprue.

That'd cost a good fifteen thousand pounds to tool (you can add the same again in production & distribution costs before we break even).
I don't think it's reasonable or realistic to be asking for thirty thousand pounds for our first crowdfunder - heck, we started off asking for £2250 and the support we've received that has (so far) tripled that ask has been far beyond our expectations (and it means we likely get to deliver more sculpts on the sprue than we originally hoped to fund).

You may wanna take the money you make off this, and restart it on kickstarter with a more well thought out sprue design.

No, we're going to deliver the very best sprue we can, at a private cost of around four thousand pounds, because we respect our customers who have pre-ordered on the understanding that they'll get their sprues in the next few months.

With future plastics projects, we may aim higher, or lower, but we think that this initial foray is something we can realistically and rapidly achieve, and which will pay itself back in the long term.


***Actually, more like 92% of the crowdfunding money raised so far. IGG & Paypal take healthy bites from crowdfunding campaigns (kickstarter takes even more, incidentally).

From the latest Campaign Update:

Hello everyone!

And so the final week begins.

The last month has amazed us at every step, we are incredibly grateful for all the incredible financial support we’ve received so far.

We’re currently dedicating all the funds we can from new pre-orders towards improving the plastic sprue (adding extra poses & sculpts), but that doesn’t mean we can’t offer a cool bonus stretch goal in the final week…

So, without further prevarication, hesitation, delaying, pontificating, mis-direction, concealment, waffle (etc)…

If we hit £8000, every pledge of £45 or more will receive one free infantry & IFVs plastic sprue, and every pledge of £90 more more will receive two free plastic infantry & IFVs sprues.

Thankyou for your continued support!

FREE STUFF, WOOP!

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/6mm-scale-armies

Those vehicle renders look better and better as the campaign progressed. I hope they can achieve most of the detail in plastic... if so, these will be really great for the scale.

Sweet logo!

Do you want a sketch for my mini me, Ben?

 RiTides wrote:
Those vehicle renders look better and better as the campaign progressed. I hope they can achieve most of the detail in plastic... if so, these will be really great for the scale.

Thankyou. Part of what's good about a crowdfunding campaign is that we can respond to customer feedback as we go along, improving the designs according to feedback rather than just putting the sculpts out there and wondering why nobody likes them. :-)

We're confident about getting a lot of detail on there.

fattdex wrote:
Sweet logo!

Aye, it's gonna be on the front of our rulebook & packaging. :-)

Do you want a sketch for my mini me, Ben?

Yup. :-)

Evil & Chaos wrote:

If you want GW models, eBay has plenty of them.

Zing!

I think some of the comments above show how the common perception of crowdfunding has changed to a "massive discount preorder" one, and it's unfair to expect that of all projects, some of whic are actually from newer or smaller companies who don't have the flexibility or cash reserves to over-promise stuff, and are looking instead to quietly generate a small sum to get a product line on the go. I'll be honest and say I wouldn't put the sort of money into this that I have done into projects like Dreadball and Deadzone, and part of that is large discounts on the higher levels, but I still want this project to succeed and I'm happy to contribute a small amount to keep 6mm from dying (further). The fact I get a healthy reward of useful miniatures for the pledge level is obviously a massive plus.

The big 'headline' Kickstarters do have their place in the hobby, but it's unrealistic (and unfair) to expect all project creators to have the setup to match them.

 Riquende wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:

If you want GW models, eBay has plenty of them.

Zing!

I think some of the comments above show how the common perception of crowdfunding has changed to a "massive discount preorder" one, and it's unfair to expect that of all projects, some of whic are actually from newer or smaller companies who don't have the flexibility or cash reserves to over-promise stuff, and are looking instead to quietly generate a small sum to get a product line on the go. I'll be honest and say I wouldn't put the sort of money into this that I have done into projects like Dreadball and Deadzone, and part of that is large discounts on the higher levels, but I still want this project to succeed and I'm happy to contribute a small amount to keep 6mm from dying (further). The fact I get a healthy reward of useful miniatures for the pledge level is obviously a massive plus.

The big 'headline' Kickstarters do have their place in the hobby, but it's unrealistic (and unfair) to expect all project creators to have the setup to match them.

You say Zing, but ebay doesn't have these models, or at the very least, has them at double what the 1998 price was.

You have a fair enough point, but running off a few extra sprues wouldn't be that big of a deal. These sprues cost like 50 cents to make. Running off a few extra wouldn't cost that much. Giving customers value for their money wouldn't be that big of a deal.

I just bought two metal Reaper spiders 9I wanted them in metal) and plan on buying lots of Reaper Bones spiders because they're so cheap ($2.50 for one. versus $10.99 for two metal ones) I just bought a d20 book used on amazon (Vigil Watch Warrens of the Ratmen) for $2.50, which is half-off, and another used book on film-making for a penny + $3.99 shipping. I bought a pack of magnetic bases ($9.99) at full price from a store that's in a bad neighborhood, and could use the money.

I'm looking at epic Ork stuff (like support stuff) on ebay, and at my local stores now, and if I could find any, I'd pledge for this.

I'll probably put in a Reaper order for those Bones spiders, with a few extra figures tossed in to get it to $25 so I can get free shipping.

But it's interesting seeing what's worth my money and what isn't.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 chris_valera wrote:

You say Zing, but ebay doesn't have these models, or at the very least, has them at double what the 1998 price was.

You're looking for discontinued product and your point of reference for prices is 1998?

 frozenwastes wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:

You say Zing, but ebay doesn't have these models, or at the very least, has them at double what the 1998 price was.

You're looking for discontinued product and your point of reference for prices is 1998?

The 1998 prices were considered to be waaay to high at the time, and helped kill the game. The then-new Epic stuff was detailed, but it wasn't worth that much to most customers. Remember this was when GW was raising prices by an incredible amount. GW pushed too hard, customers revolted, and that was really the beginning of the end of Epic as a core game for GW.

When they released Epic Armageddon much later, the prices were actually cheaper than the 1998 prices. They realized they made a mistake.

GW charges ridiculous prices, 30 bucks for a blister pack that would have cost $8,99 back in 1998.

With Epic stuff being rare the 1998 prices are "correct" but stuff usually sells on ebay for 2x the 1998 price. That seems to be the going rate, and could also be considered the "correct" price, as it is what people are willing to pay for it.

I do keep in mind inflation though. A $40 D&D player's handbook released in 2000 costs $50 today But since these kickstarter figures are generic figures, it cancels out. I can buy Mantic skeletons or Wargames factory zombies for about the same discount versus the GW stuff.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I wish there was a cheaper pledge level for just a single sprue to try out. I've never played 6mm and the only 6mm models I have are plastic Epic pieces I bought to use as statuary on my BFG ships. After the Robotech Kickstarter, 6mm is starting to look more appealing, but I'm just not willing to pay as much as they are asking for a single box, especially since the poses look unvaried. Maybe the prices don't seem so high in pounds, but the price in dollars is just too high for an impulse purchase to "try out" a new line. As Chris pointed out, there are other companies out there with plastic kits in the "why not?" price range that serve as a deterrent for jumping into this campaign right now.

Hi Bob. I'll set you up a single sprue (plus bases?) pledge this evening. :-)

We figured that most people wouldn't be interested in a single sprue because postage is going to be the same as a full 5 sprue set.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chris_valera wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:

You say Zing, but ebay doesn't have these models, or at the very least, has them at double what the 1998 price was.

You're looking for discontinued product and your point of reference for prices is 1998?

When they released Epic Armageddon much later, the prices were actually cheaper than the 1998 prices. They realized they made a mistake.

Good thing that our sprues are cheaper than GW sprues, then.

GW charge £15 + postage for two sprues + bases (or four half sized sprues + bases, which amount to the same thing but with less variety).
That's £7.50 each.

We're charging £20 + postage for three sprues + bases or five sprues with no bases.
That's £6.66 each, or £4 each if with no bases. And ours come with tanks, not just infantry.


EDIT: I just checked and GW have started to take their 6mm plastics OOP, so your only point of ccomparison now is metal and resin models from other companies, and you can bet we're much cheaper than them!

Thank you. I appreciate it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there it is.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Good thing that our sprues are cheaper than GW sprues, then.

Yes, but they're generic space aliens, with generic vehicles, but your charging a GW-esque price.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
EDIT: I just checked and GW have started to take their 6mm plastics OOP, so your only point of ccomparison now is metal and resin models from other companies, and you can bet we're much cheaper than them!

That's not a great sales pitch. Oh the GW stuff is long-gone, so we're your only option, tee hee!

And stuff does sell online. This is an old, mint condition infantry box that sold for $37, and there was another auction that sold for a similar price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200934642664?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

The question is, did the guy get it for cheap, or expensive because the GW stuff is out of print.

As I told another poster by PM, I want to pledge to this, but I just don't see the value in this. Most kickstarters give crazy discounts. It doesn't cost hardly anything to keep running the machines. The sprue costs like fifty cents to make. It really looks like you're trying to sell GW-esque product, at GW prices. I think there's a reason these pledges haven't gone anywhere.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 chris_valera wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Good thing that our sprues are cheaper than GW sprues, then.

Yes, but they're generic space aliens, with generic vehicles, but your charging a GW-esque price.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
EDIT: I just checked and GW have started to take their 6mm plastics OOP, so your only point of ccomparison now is metal and resin models from other companies, and you can bet we're much cheaper than them!

That's not a great sales pitch. Oh the GW stuff is long-gone, so we're your only option, tee hee!

And stuff does sell online. This is an old, mint condition infantry box that sold for $37, and there was another auction that sold for a similar price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200934642664?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

The question is, did the guy get it for cheap, or expensive because the GW stuff is out of print.

As I told another poster by PM, I want to pledge to this, but I just don't see the value in this. Most kickstarters give crazy discounts. It doesn't cost hardly anything to keep running the machines. The sprue costs like fifty cents to make. It really looks like you're trying to sell GW-esque product, at GW prices. I think there's a reason these pledges haven't gone anywhere.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Honestly Chris, if you don't want to buy the £22 box set, E&C just added an option for a sample plastic sprue for £7 that has Infantry & IFV's sprue (56 infantry models, 2x Alien Cannons, 2x human IFV's, 2x Alien Flatbed trucks) plus £3 shipping. I think that is much affordable and won't break the bank to pledge and support consider how a plastic box was about $20 or so for epic 40k IG or SM infantry plastic sprue when they still had it on the GW store.

Sometimes you can score some great deals with Ebay like that example you posted but I think it was mention before that Ebay is never a constant price setting shop like the GW online store, sometimes the person selling doesn't know or care about the true price of the item and just want to get rid of it for a decent price according to that person's opinion. I got 100+ epic 40k IG infantry for like $5 on Ebay 3 months ago but I doubt I will ever get a good deal like that again.

Also if you do know how to produce 50 cent 6mm plastic sprue of infantry and tanks that is GW standard and sell them for less than E&C, please please please do so! It would be a great service for the gaming community especially epic and stick it to GW for getting rid of the specialist games miniatures. Unfortunately, I think E&C has to consider cost of machinery and tool cutting as well as material as he stated a few times since they don't pay for themselves. Honestly, machinery to make the sprues are pretty expensive otherwise GW wouldn't be the sticking us with the high prices for their stuff and 3D printers would be in every house. I seen Shapeways has 3D print 6mm miniatures but if you want detail, it's way more costly.

I plan to pledge if E&C add some more poses for the human sprue. If he does, great he got another supporter. If he doesn't, well I would be a bit disappointed but I wouldn't rant for several weeks why I won't pledge.

I post because I'm on the fence about it, though as my friend said over PM, perhaps they don't realize the disparity in the exchange rates.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Evil & Chaos wrote:
EDIT: I just checked and GW have started to take their 6mm plastics OOP, so your only point of ccomparison now is metal and resin models from other companies, and you can bet we're much cheaper than them!

That's not a great sales pitch. Oh the GW stuff is long-gone, so we're your only option, tee hee!

No, we're one of dozens of options. And we're the cheapest.
Forget about GW, they're in the process of making 6mm scifi OOP; We're charging considerably less than any other 6mm scifi manufacturer.

And stuff does sell online. This is an old, mint condition infantry box that sold for $37, and there was another auction that sold for a similar price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200934642664?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I've told you before, no company that wants to actually survive can price itself against the second hand market.

Furthermore, you're comparing a sprue that contains 1 infantry sculpt and 1 vehicle sculpt, to a sprue that contains at minimum 2 infantry sculpts and 2 vehicle sculpts (and in the next couple of days the factory will tell us whether we've actually raised enough to have more like 6-8 infantry sculpts - it's my belief we have raised enough for several more sculpts at least).

The question is, did the guy get it for cheap, or expensive because the GW stuff is out of print.

The question is, do you want to buy second hand models that have been OOP for 20 years, or do you want to buy new models from a company that's actively trying to support 6mm scifi gaming.

If what you want is OOP GW Epic figures, go to eBay.

As I told another poster by PM, I want to pledge to this, but I just don't see the value in this. Most kickstarters give crazy discounts.

Those kickstarters are working with 28mm scale models, and can be sure of raising not £8,000 but £80,000 or even £800,000.
The market for 6mm is comparatively tiny. If you're expecting us to be able to afford to give you a 50% discount then I'm sorry, we're too poor to afford that and the market for 6mm scifi is too small to support that.

Nevertheless, we have put a "free stuff" stretch goal in place - if we make it to £8000 (and we should, at the current rate of pledges) then every person who's pledged £45 or more gets one free plastic sprue, and every person who's pledged £90 or more gets two free plastic sprues.

If that's not "crazy" enough for you, go to eBay.
No 28mm company matches eBay prices, and no 6mm company matches eBay prices.
We're not going to sell you models at eBay prices.
I'm really sorry but we can't afford more than the thousands of pounds that we've already put in as start-up investment, and we can't afford to sell you our brand new 6mm scifi models for less than our current offer (which is already cheaper than any other 6mm scifi manufacturer on the market).

It doesn't cost hardly anything to keep running the machines. The sprue costs like fifty cents to make.

Actually, all-in it's costing us slightly over twice that per sprue.
.
We also have about £5500 in tooling costs to pay for.
And £3000 in metal moulding and production to pay for.
And postage and packaging that will cost us the best part of £1000.
And other costs besides.

If you can find cash in our figures to give you "crazy" discounts, then I encourage you to start your own 6mm scifi company and sell your products at "crazy" prices; We'll buy from you!

It really looks like you're trying to sell GW-esque product, at GW prices. I think there's a reason these pledges haven't gone anywhere.

We asked for £2250. We're at £7150 and rising. Our campaign has been a massive and amazing success that has smashed our expectations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daemonknight wrote:
I plan to pledge if E&C add some more poses for the human sprue. If he does, great he got another supporter. If he doesn't, well I would be a bit disappointed but I wouldn't rant for several weeks why I won't pledge.

I've asked the factory to quote me for adding a missile launcher trooper to the human side of the sprue, and alternate rifleman poses will come after that if we can afford it. :-)

My favorite thing about this campaign is that it really is a by-gamers-for-gamers independant raising of funds to make a specific project a reality and NOT a unnecessary preorder at discount prices.

Evil & Chaos, I appreciate the sample pledge level. I pledged for it and look forward to sampling your product.

I feel bad that I bugged you earlier in the thread for a "just humans" option and didn't claim it, but it will be nice to have that option if I buy more of your product when it hits general release. It's just that the pledge is high enough ($42ish) that every time I tried to pull the trigger, i ended up looking at my 12 completed 15mm guys next to their myriad besprued companions and the many other 6mm guys too ugly or boring to grace a venerable Battle Barge or Shrineship, and then I looked at your 1 human pose and 1 vehicle...and I just couldn't do it in good conscience. $42 would buy me two boxes of minis I would love to have for sure and a 6mm clone army might not get me the same utility, unless they strike my fancy. But I wanted to support you and to give your products a chance. Thank you for making a sample pledge and responding so enthusiastically to my feedback. I really hope you can get those extra sculpts on the sprue!

Thanks for your support Bob, we are a small company and every pledge helps!

Hopefully when you get your sprue in the post, you'll find it has more variety. If we get to our £8k stretch goal I think there's a good chance of getting a decent variety on there.

BobtheInquisitor, you might like to have a look at these. I think Evil & Chaos is still awaiting final confirmation on costings from the factory, but it's looking like a funding total of £8000 will see these chaps on the sprues.

Oh geez. They'd be absolutely dorky looking at 28mm, but at 6mm those things are pretty nice looking. I need to hurry up and figure out about what I'd need to get in order to flesh out a modest IG or Ork army for my Space Marines to beat on.

Don't worry Bob, I've upped my pledge to switch to just Humans, so we'll just say I've got yours! Also added on a little bit more for 10 "Churchill-Pattern Leman Russes".

 Lansirill wrote:
Oh geez. They'd be absolutely dorky looking at 28mm, but at 6mm those things are pretty nice looking.

Aye, the sculpting requirements are really very different for 28mm!

Thanks for your interest!

I like the idea and I'm prepared to back it (first I've heard of it), but am I the only one who's a little off-put by the sponson and hull weapons on this? They look dangerously similar to a few GW products (by dangerous, I mean the way we understand GW on this website.)

Anyway. Looks exciting. I'm going to back if I can, in the morning.

Hi Scipio Africanus,

We have drawn from historical and common scifi/fantasy tropes for this project.

The Churchillian tank for example is based very closely on the WWII Churchill tank, with added sponsons.

The sponson guns are based on a variety of real world shotguns

The hull weapon is based on my favourite gun, The Jackhammer Shotgun.


Thanks for your interest, as an aside we're looking good at the current uptake rate to hit £8k, at which point everyone who's pledged at least £45 gets a free sprue, and everyone who's pledged £90 gets two free sprues!

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Hi Scipio Africanus,

We have drawn from historical and common scifi/fantasy tropes for this project.

The Churchillian tank for example is based very closely on the WWII Churchill tank, with added sponsons.

The sponson guns are based on a variety of real world shotguns

The hull weapon is based on my favourite gun, The Jackhammer Shotgun.


Thanks for your interest, as an aside we're looking good at the current uptake rate to hit £8k, at which point everyone who's pledged at least £45 gets a free sprue, and everyone who's pledged £90 gets two free sprues!

Okay, I do - like - the design I'm looking at quite a lot, (I like the concept for the games, too.) I hope you can understand where the concern comes from, however.

 Apologist wrote:
BobtheInquisitor, you might like to have a look at these. I think Evil & Chaos is still awaiting final confirmation on costings from the factory, but it's looking like a funding total of £8000 will see these chaps on the sprues.

Those would be awesome. A bit of variety like that means I can make statues out of the figure...but also troops! When the Robotech stuff arrives, I might just get an entire conventional army for them to stomp. Hopefully by then, there will be some stock in the US at my FLGS or the War Store to make shipping and paying less of a hassle.

Hey Bob: Feel free to ask your FLGS or the Warstore to contact us and ask for trade terms... local customers asking to buy a box or three will definitely have more weight in getting DiD into FLGS's than us just emailing them out of the blue.

Here's our latest campaign update:

Holy wow!
We made it to £8000!

Can we (dare we say it) get to “Over 9000”?!

If we pass £9000, we’re prepared to DOUBLE our £8000 stretch rewards, so everyone who has pledged £45 or more will receive TWO free Infantry & IFV’s plastic sprues, and everyone who has pledged £90 or more will receive FOUR free plastic infantry & IFV’s sprues.

And if not, well, we’re still overwhelmed by the incredible support we’ve received.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
Here's our latest campaign update:

Holy wow!
We made it to £8000!

Can we (dare we say it) get to “Over 9000”?!

If we pass £9000, we’re prepared to DOUBLE our £8000 stretch rewards, so everyone who has pledged £45 or more will receive TWO free Infantry & IFV’s plastic sprues, and everyone who has pledged £90 or more will receive FOUR free plastic infantry & IFV’s sprues.

And if not, well, we’re still overwhelmed by the incredible support we’ve received.

I must admit, this new goal, and the new unlockables, has moved me closer than ever to ordering.

edit: Oh wait, just checked it again; you have to pledge £45 or more? Why can't you just toss it in with the purchase of a box?

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Oh wait, just checked it again; you have to pledge £45 or more? Why can't you just toss it in with the purchase of a box?

We want to put profits into making the plastic sprue better (adding more sculpts & poses), thereby giving a better product to everyone (everyone who pledges for a box containing the plastics, at the least).

If we get to £10k, maybe everyone will get something for free. We'll see how our finances look if we make it that far.

As it stands right now we're still on course to put £3-£4k of our own money into the project ourselves to make sure the sprue is as great as we can afford it to be, which means there's not a great deal of "spare" cash floating around!

From the campaign :

35 Hours To Go!

The £9000 stretch goal point is nearly within reach, it’s so close that we can almost taste the free plastic sprues for contributors who’ve pledged £45 or more… so what happens when you go “over 9000”?

Well, if we pass £9000 and end up hitting the mighty £10,000, we’ll give a free metal Human Supreme Commander and a free metal Alien Supreme Commander to every pledger who’s contributed £50 or more.

We love you guys; This funding campaign has been amazing.

Here’s to the next 35 hours!

Evil & Chaos wrote:
From the campaign :

35 Hours To Go!

The £9000 stretch goal point is nearly within reach, it’s so close that we can almost taste the free plastic sprues for contributors who’ve pledged £45 or more… so what happens when you go “over 9000”?

Well, if we pass £9000 and end up hitting the mighty £10,000, we’ll give a free metal Human Supreme Commander and a free metal Alien Supreme Commander to every pledger who’s contributed £50 or more.

We love you guys; This funding campaign has been amazing.

Here’s to the next 35 hours!

Meh, I'd rather get an extra sprue of infantry, or have the point of entry lowered to where you get the extra sprues with the purchase of a box.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Well, sorry Chris, we ran the numbers and just couldn't afford to give free stuff to everyone just yet; we can only afford to give free things to our above-average pledgers.

Anyone who spends over £45 at this point gets two free plastic sprues, and over £90 and you get four free plastic sprues.

For yourself, if you spent:

£25 - Box of only Humans (or was it Aliens you wanted? I forget)
£18 - Lancastrian Bomber Squadron
£3 - International postage

Well that'd be £46 and you'd nab yourself two more Infantry & IFV's plastic sprues for free. Thanks for your interest.

If we get to £11k we'll be able to do a free sprue (or a free "something else", see below....) for everyone who spent over £25. I doubt we'll make it that high, but you never know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And speaking of rewards for larger contributors, we've just upped the £10k reward, DOUBLING it for £100+ pledgers and TRIPLING it for £150+ pledgers.

And we have a little sneaky hint as to what the £11k reward may be...

the sprue is starting to look GREAT actually :

I'd note we can't 100% confirm the contents of the sprue just yet as it's dependent on funding, but we're pretty confident about what we can deliver.

Yes, sorry i got carried away, but IT DOES look good, much better than where it started from for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Closing in on 10K. That would make each 45£ plege get 2 additional sprues, plus a free metal leader !

I think the value is quite nice.

Athmos wrote:
Yes, sorry i got carried away, but IT DOES look good, much better than where it started from for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Closing in on 10K. That would make each 45£ plege get 2 additional sprues, plus a free metal leader !

I think the value is quite nice.

£50 is needed for the free metal leader. £45 for the 2 additional sprues.

Yeah, true. Still, the 10K are in, that's still quite a bit of free stuff for 50£


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, it's starting to look like the 12K bar will be passed. That would mean free stuff for everyone !

 chris_valera wrote:
So I checked in on this kickstarter over today, and to my surprise, it's up to £11,523 with just eight hours remaining.

Honestly I'm torn on this. I want to pledge, but what you get for your money is ludicrous, to the point where I almost think you're trolling me.

Well there's irony. Pot, meet the kettle...

 chris_valera wrote:


I wanted to pledge like $70-100 on this, and would have, if you guys had been just a little more generous. But seeing what this kickstarter has to offer just makes me want to pass completely..

I even considered dropping my pledge down to get just the grots, but then I realize the entire effort isn't worth it.

Now it seems your stretch rewards are ludicrous, to the point where they are insulting.

You never had any intention of pledging Chris. You're the proverbial empty can that rattles the loudest. Most of your posts in this thread have been complaining about the offering and asking for something else. You wanted only one faction - an option was provided. You bitched that the price was too high - it was lowered. You complained about the bases and you were offered the option to swap them out for more infantry - but you kept complaining about the bases and you did it again in this post...

I'm surprised you haven't asked Troublemaker Games to pay YOU in return for graciously allowing them to send you product

 chris_valera wrote:

"Pledge £30 or more and receive a free hardcopy rulebook?" Wow great, a hardcopy rulebook of a game, where I'm just going to use the figures for Epic or Exodus Wars, and a good many other people will as well. I have no interest in this, and I'll wagers other won't as well.

"Pledge £100 or more and receieve two sprues of plastic bases?" What the feth is this?! You're just trolling us at this point. What the feth am I going to do with round plastic bases, if I play Epic?! For that matter, what am I going to do with plastic bases, with no figures to put on them? This is some masterful trolling.

The free metal Human and Alien Supreme Commander models being given away at the higher stretch goals don't interest me either.

They interest plenty of other people. It's pretty obvious you're in a minority here. Maybe Troublemaker Games is aiming higher than just providing figures for GW's game. Complaining about something being offered free - to other people because you haven't even pledged a penny - surely YOU'RE the troll.

 chris_valera wrote:

Seriously, you couldn't just toss in an extra sprue with the purchase of a box? That's it? It would have cost you almost nothing, an extra buck per sprue, you mentioned? How can that possibly cost less than a freaking rulebook? Not everyone will want a rulebook for a game they're not even sure they will like, but everyone wants more models.

What do you care? You haven't even pledged for the box in the first place.

The point of the rewards in a crowfunder is to get people to buy more than just the minimum by rewarding people who've bought done just that. By offering an incentive, you get people to increase their bids. I'd have thought you knew this, since you give the appearance of knowing everything.

The rulebook is an opportunity for Troublemaker Games to bring their new product to a large audience. Maybe no-one will buy a rulebook from a small company of their own accord, and for sure not everyone involved in this will be interested either, but a certain percentage of people funding this project will give it a look, and they'll be converted. Troublemaker Games will increase its customer base - and interestingly for the customer, won't have done it by charging extra. He's obviously taking a financial risk by doing this (because we're not paying for it) but I think it's a smart move and hope it brings him more customers long term.

Again, I'd have thought you'd know this since it's so blindingly obvious to me, but your rage-quit post may be alcohol-fueled and you probably can't think straight.

 chris_valera wrote:

Plastic sprues are supposed to cost *less* than metal models, but you crow about how your prices are the same, and the fact that they're generic figures at that should bring the price down as well.

Zombicide Season 2 can get away with charging fans full price for the second edition of the game, because they discounted Season 1 and they give away *so* much stuff, and have the option to buy exclusive figures. There's a LOT of value there. Here, none.

As I've said before, it seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, charging GW-esque prices, for non-GW models.

It's like you can't read. It's been explained to you before that this is essentially a one-man project. He's not making the vast quantities of money you think he is. He's not rolling in the cash because he's stiffed you out of one extra sprue in your non-existent box. The costs have been laid out transparently for everybody who's literate.

 chris_valera wrote:

With these latest stretch rewards it just seems like your willfully trolling us at this point.

Get bent, I will NOT be pledging to this kickstarter.

There was never any doubt in my mind that you weren't going to pledge anyway - thank you for not failing to disappoint, as usual.

There's only one troll in this thread and it's you.

angryboy2k wrote:
You never had any intention of pledging Chris.

I like your magic mind-reading powers, where can I get mine?

angryboy2k wrote:
You're the proverbial empty can that rattles the loudest. Most of your posts in this thread have been complaining about the offering and asking for something else. You wanted only one faction - an option was provided. You bitched that the price was too high - it was lowered. You complained about the bases and you were offered the option to swap them out for more infantry - but you kept complaining about the bases and you did it again in this post...

I'm surprised you haven't asked Troublemaker Games to pay YOU in return for graciously allowing them to send you product

I love you so much. I wish I could box you up and take you home.

angryboy2k wrote:
They interest plenty of other people.

Show me this mad rush of people that are just so overjoyed to receive bases, with no figures to put on them.

angryboy2k wrote:
What do you care? You haven't even pledged for the box in the first place.

I care because I want to pledge, duh. But oh wait, thanks to your magic mind-reading powers I, er, wasn't going to pledge. Makes perfect sense!

angryboy2k wrote:
By offering an incentive, you get people to increase their bids. I'd have thought you knew this, since you give the appearance of knowing everything.

A free sprue of bases?! That's an incentive? Maybe if I'm a good boy, and pony up even more cash, they'll even throw in some free pocket lint! OH BOY!

angryboy2k wrote:
but a certain percentage of people funding this project will give it a look, and they'll be converted.

Or maybe they're just giving customers what they want to give, and not something what they could actually use, which is more sprues. Maybe these are just Ork knock-offs, and they know damn well people are just going to use them for Epic. Maybe they know this and they're doing everything in their power to give away anything except more sprues.

angryboy2k wrote:
Troublemaker Games will increase its customer base - and interestingly for the customer, won't have done it by charging extra.

No, they've have done it by forcing the customer to accept something of little value (a rulebook) versus something of much greater value; more figures.

angryboy2k wrote:
He's obviously taking a financial risk by doing this (because we're not paying for it) but I think it's a smart move and hope it brings him more customers long term.

Amazing how every incentive doesn't involve giving away an extra sprue.

angryboy2k wrote:
Again, I'd have thought you'd know this since it's so blindingly obvious to me, but your rage-quit post may be alcohol-fueled and you probably can't think straight.

Nope, stone sober. Wrong again. Maybe your magic mind-reading powers are on the fritz.

angryboy2k wrote:
It's like you can't read. It's been explained to you before that this is essentially a one-man project. He's not making the vast quantities of money you think he is. He's not rolling in the cash because he's stiffed you out of one extra sprue in your non-existent box. The costs have been laid out transparently for everybody who's literate.

He's said himself that the sprue only costs an extra buck to make. Yet he's charging ten, which is a woeful price, and higher than GW was charging for their sprues.

angryboy2k wrote:
There was never any doubt in my mind that you weren't going to pledge anyway - thank you for not failing to disappoint, as usual.

There's only one troll in this thread and it's you.

Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of buying official Ork sprues on ebay. I may also spend that $75 on a discounted box set of Escape from Goblin Town, to add to the three sets I already own. The Thorin's company models become redundant past the first set, but you can trade them for other figs (like say, the Empire figs I'm looking for in my sig as well as some Epic Orks)

But I guess your magic mind-reading power missed that.

But you see? Customers shop for things that have value, and they have choices in the market place. A $75 set of Escape from Goblin Town (normally $125) is a good deal. This kickstarter... is not. I was interested in this kickstarter because I really did need 6mm scale Orks (and make no mistake, they are Ork knock-offs) But creating a kickstarter and charging customers full price for for unofficial Ork knock-offs that they could easily get on discount at a local hobby shop if they waited is pretty poor value indeed.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh hey, speak of the devil, look what I just bought:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251296396295&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Gee $12.73, shipped, for a sprue of official Games Workshop-brand figures. Only three dollars less than what TG is offering, and you know it's a fair price because Epic sprues sell for about fair value on ebay. Even when you account for the vehicles on the TG sprue, it's a better value because they are official figures, and TG's not-Orks should sell for slightly less, because they are generic.

It's almost like what I'm saying is true, they're selling a GW knock off product at a GW price.

I'd love to see what Troublemaker's knock-offs sell for on ebay once they're released. Even Mantic sells their product at a slight discount to GW's.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

 chris_valera wrote:


Show me this mad rush of people that are just so overjoyed to receive bases, with no figures to put on them.

I happen to like the bases. 30 out of 470 pledges have been for bases, so I guess other people like them too. They are actually great for putting Epic command units on and keeping them separate from the units they're attached too. An entire Epic force based on round bases also looks pretty good (yes, they're legal by the rules, and yes, I've seen such an army before).

And no, you were never going to pledge - unless you could be given product for less than it costs to produce, distribute and manufacture. You've made it abundantly clear that your point of comparison is second hand GW product on eBay.

 chris_valera wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:
Troublemaker Games will increase its customer base - and interestingly for the customer, won't have done it by charging extra.

No, they've have done it by forcing the customer to accept something of little value (a rulebook) versus something of much greater value; more figures.

They could have offered nothing at all. There's nothing obliging them to do this. The goals of the project have already been met, people didn't buy with the expectation of more stuff so there's no room for disappointment by not offering more. Offering anything is a nice gesture that costs TG money and costs the customers nothing. The fact that YOU are not happy about getting free stuff doesn't mean everyone else will be.

 chris_valera wrote:


Gee $12.73, shipped, for a sprue of official Games Workshop-brand figures. Only three dollars less than what TG is offering, and you know it's a fair price because Epic sprues sell for about fair value on ebay. Even when you account for the vehicles on the TG sprue, it's a better value because they are official figures, and TG's not-Orks should sell for slightly less, because they are generic.

You picked up a single sprue of figures plus some bases for ten bucks plus shipping? Am I supposed to be impressed by that? You could have picked up a sample sprue from this crowdfunder for 15 bucks and it would have had about the same number of infantry while including vehicles.

Anyway, I don't see how the figures are "better value" for being "official". Being official is meaningless when the game is dead.

The only things that count now are quality, quantity, and how much I like the figures. I've already got lots of GW orks. I don't need more of them. I think TG's not-orks are nice, they will add variety to my army, and by buying them I'm supporting someone who's going to keep producing new models that are compatible with Epic, which long term means more variety and more enjoyment for me.

I don't have any IG, so TG's offering gives me a small human force that I can lend to someone else to try the game, or give to my friend who does have an IG force. Alternatively I get the option to try them out with a different ruleset that might be better than Epic. I don't have enough rectangular bases for these models, but luckily these come with bases so I can use a bunch of round bases for my Space Marines (they'll look great on the round bases) and then I will have enough rectangular ones to base up these not-orks (having them match with the rest of my orks) while still leaving enough round bases for the humans.

You're throwing out a lot of vitriol towards this. You seem to be unhappy because you aren't being offered exactly what you want - which seems now to be second-hand GW figures (notwithstanding that you've already moved the goalposts several times in this thread). You've already exercised your option not to buy so what's the point in throwing a temper tantrum?

The success of this project so far shows that you're in a minority, so I for one am glad that TG didn't choose to bankrupt itself by bending to your every whim expressed in this thread. You're a perfect example of how the customer isn't always right - except you're not even a customer.

Good morning everybody!

Thanks to Chris for keeping our thread at the top of the news & rumour section for the last few hours.


Here are our final offers for the last hour!

- £8000 - Everyone who has pleged £45 or more will receive a free plastic infantry & IFV's sprue. Everyone who has pledged £90 or more will received two free plastic infantry & IFV's sprues - ACHIEVED!

- £9000 - We'll DOUBLE the £8000 pledge level, so that everyone who has pleged £45 or more will receive two plastic infantry & IFV's sprues. Everyone who has pledged £90 or more will received four free plastic infantry & IFV's sprues - ACHIEVED!

- £10,000 - Everyone who has pledged £50 or more will receive a free Human Supreme Commander and a free Alien Supreme Commander - Everyone who has pledged £100 or more will receive two of each free Supreme Commander - Everyone who has pledged £150 or more will receive three of each free supreme commander - ACHIEVED!

- £11,000 - pledge £30 or more and receive a free hardcopy rulebook. Pledge £100 or more and receieve two sprues of plastic bases. - ACHIEVED!

- £12,000 - The free metal Human and Alien Supreme Commander models, previously only available to pledgers who spent £50 or more, will now be sent out to everyone who has made a Pledge (Ie we are extending the free leaders reward all the way down to people who only Pledge for a Sample sprue). - IN PROGRESS!

We're just £170 off of 12k now!

There's also a 13k stretch goal should a whole bunch of people jump on it at the last minute:

- £13,000 - The free Human and Alien Supreme Commander models will be joined by a free Gobbler High (low?) Commander model, who will also be sent out free to every single Pledger. - READY!

This particular project is the very definition of what a crowdfunding project is for and I am happy to have supported it.

Thankyou angryboy2k, and everybody else who pledged.

Thankyou for your financial and oratory support.
Let's take this game into the future and do great things.

We just passed 12,000, and that means free metal Human and Alien leaders for everybody! Woop! Woop!

Hooray - loads of really cool stuff, and in plastic, too
Well done E&C - a really fun campaign. I hope it sets off the Defeat in Detail game with a bang, you deserve it.

Evil & Chaos wrote:


We just passed 12,000, and that means free metal Human and Alien leaders for everybody! Woop! Woop!

Excellent news! It's been an exciting (and surprising) finish!

Congrats guys, looking forward to getting my awesome cheap 6mm guys and cool looking tanks.

Oh, and cheers for the free sprues/commanders.

We made it to 12k, and everybody got themselves free Human & Alien supreme commander figures!!

Now the hard work begins!

Thankyou for your support everybody!

For further updates, keep an eye on our Facebook page.... https://www.facebook.com/TroublemakerGames

 chris_valera wrote:

Amazing how every incentive doesn't involve giving away an extra sprue.

Well, I don't know about you, but I will get 4 free sprues for sure.

 chris_valera wrote:

He's said himself that the sprue only costs an extra buck to make. Yet he's charging ten, which is a woeful price, and higher than GW was charging for their sprues.

You know what ? GW sprue are still available

That's 15£ for 36 stands. the Orks are OOP, but the price point and number of figures was the same.
the DiD starter box is 22£, you get 32 stands and 12 vehicles.

The DiD sprue is also of significantly higher interest, more comparable in variety with the E40K era sprue. I challenge you to find some E40K era IG sprues at a competitive price.

 chris_valera wrote:

Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of buying official Ork sprues on ebay. I may also spend that $75 on a discounted box set of Escape from Goblin Town, to add to the three sets I already own. The Thorin's company models become redundant past the first set, but you can trade them for other figs (like say, the Empire figs I'm looking for in my sig as well as some Epic Orks)

No problems man, From the beginning you sound like you highly value having "official" GW miniatures, and thinks that basically all other SF miniatures are knock-offs that should be offered at a huge discount.
The thing is that even if the production cost of plastics is low, the setup certainly isn't. There is a level of discount no one will offer you, because no one can. People still run companies to make money, you know, unlike GW . Before one can offer "free" stuff because the production price is low, you still have to pay for the setup. That's called an investment. That's what crowdfunding campaign are for. That's why the crowd DID fund it.

 chris_valera wrote:

But you see? Customers shop for things that have value, and they have choices in the market place.

You know, I get that you're not interested in non-GW official stuff, but man you can't begrudge people who are not GW for not being GW.

What is striking to me in your posts is that you're actually the only person here speaking in the name of "the people". I actually don't think that E&C from TMG is too commercially talented, but his production is definitely on par with what can be expected of 6mm plastics.
And from what are now facts, there were actually enough customers to fund this project in excess of 500%. Please refrain from using the "people want" argument when your voice is isolated and people actually showed support. It makes you sound quite whiny, while I don't think this is you're intention.

Nobody forced or prevented you from doing anything. You apparently wanted to participate but don't regret that you didn't, you were on the brink of backing the project but never did. You actually said several time that somehow, TMG was "insulting" you.

I don't know if you realise it, but you never sounded like someone just wanting a perk (several of those you asked for were granted) or wanting to give feedback or an opinion.

You sounded like someone haggling without end. Then you started to sound like someone whining.

You don't like these figures, they're not GW stuff and all... You know what ? It's OK, there are also plenty of people here who don't give a gak either, be it because they have no use for theses miniatures in their armies, because they only like 28mm or because the have a grudge against brits because of GWs prices, who knows ? and who cares ?

You think it's not good enough value for you, no problems friend ! Nobody is going to block your ebay account or force you to buy DiD miniatures with your hard earned money.

But seriously, stop making claims in the name of "the people" and "the customers", and say "I" like grown-ups.