So new codex and as a long time Eldar player and fan (nearly 20 years!) I'm really unhappy with the new rules. I hate to start a thread so negatively but there are a number things which I think make this a poor release;

1. All random psychic powers - Eldar are reliant on these as force multipliers and the loss of certainty in gaining powers makes us a whole lot weaker.
2. Expensive units - With some exceptions, autarchs and bikes namely, everything is over priced for how fragile it is.
3. Wraith constructs everywhere - this seems to be the focus of the release, understandably to sell more models but I've always been non-plussed by them. The wraith knight seems like a missed opportunity, no doubt it will sell well but it doesn't do much for its points.

It's not all negative as I like the blade storm rule (ap2 small arms what's not to like!) but even that is soured by the ranges staying the same. Jetbikes are arguably the best scoring units in the game if they weren't before and the much maligned swooping hawks actually seem to be reasonably decent. Also the Vaul's wrath platforms look cost effective and dangerous barrage weapons, along with Serpents kicking out decent firepower too.

I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

I just had such hig hopes, probably raised my expectations too high after the awesome Tau book. So much of the Eldar powers and gear are very situational, expensive and on non-durable platforms, I know we're specialists and everything needs to work in concert but I fail to see how we won't get smashed off the table by other 6th ed armies.

Heres hoping the mini codi help to elevate the Eldar from mediocrity.

If you think the Iyanden codex is going to present you with a lot of new rules for units and characters I think you should prepare yourself for disappointment.

The real question, that is interesting is, how does this codex compare in general to the books for other armies. I am sure all long term players have their well fixed ideas and expectations but do you seriously expect GW is going to fullfill your personal and probably very specific wishes?

Can the Eldar compete? Do they have multiple decent builds? How do they synergize with available allies? These are the kind of questions that need to be answered before labelling the codex as a failure or success.

Every player has their own personal wishlist, which is not terribly interesting.

Everyone else gets their psychic powers at random and the design team likes the random table idea, its astonishing that people expected the Eldar to be able to pick their powers.

The Eldar received some nice buffs but the demon army received way more random crap than anyone should have to deal with. Have you even built a list or played a game yet? Do you think the general increase in BS to 4 is not any good. What about being able to shoot and run, or run and shoot?

I think your complaints are very premature.

Disagree strongly. I think you gloss over the massive positive changes - battle focus, shuriken rending, BS4 etc - and concentrate on things that are still weaknesses. Of course there are still weaknesses. If everything in the army was the best unit ever then every non-eldar player would (justifiably) be complaining.

Let's just experiment with new rules and armies and enjoy the excitement of fresh options+possibilities, before we go around bemoaning our fate.

djn wrote:
So new codex and as a long time Eldar player and fan (nearly 20 years!) I'm really unhappy with the new rules. I hate to start a thread so negatively but there are a number things which I think make this a poor release;

1. All random psychic powers - Eldar are reliant on these as force multipliers and the loss of certainty in gaining powers makes us a whole lot weaker.
2. Expensive units - With some exceptions, autarchs and bikes namely, everything is over priced for how fragile it is.
3. Wraith constructs everywhere - this seems to be the focus of the release, understandably to sell more models but I've always been non-plussed by them. The wraith knight seems like a missed opportunity, no doubt it will sell well but it doesn't do much for its points.

It's not all negative as I like the blade storm rule (ap2 small arms what's not to like!) but even that is soured by the ranges staying the same. Jetbikes are arguably the best scoring units in the game if they weren't before and the much maligned swooping hawks actually seem to be reasonably decent. Also the Vaul's wrath platforms look cost effective and dangerous barrage weapons, along with Serpents kicking out decent firepower too.

I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

I just had such hig hopes, probably raised my expectations too high after the awesome Tau book. So much of the Eldar powers and gear are very situational, expensive and on non-durable platforms, I know we're specialists and everything needs to work in concert but I fail to see how we won't get smashed off the table by other 6th ed armies.

Heres hoping the mini codi help to elevate the Eldar from mediocrity.

MOTHER OF THE EMPRAH.

You can still potentially get an Asurmen with re-rolls of 1 on both 2+ armor save and 4++ save, or in close combat re-rolls of 1 on 2+ armor save and 3++ save due to Shield of Grace power. It means non-AP 2 weapon hits have a 1/36 chance or only 2.78% chance of making it past the armor, and even when you have to rely on the invulnerable you have only 25% chance of failing ranged invulnerables and 11.11% of failing close combat invulnerables.

Also, do the Shining Spears and Warp Spiders finally have a phoenix lord?

And has Maugan-Ra solo'd another hive fleet/chaos host/waaagh/tomb world/imperial crusade yet?

Seriously, how do you solo a hive fleet!?!

Where do you keep the ammo?!

WS oh only 1 in 6 pens are actually pens

So your problems are:
1. Something literally every army has had, and will continue to have
2. Things got cheaper or became better values from a points perspective
3. Your personal preference

Yeah, I'm not really seeing these problems at all. They seem like they'll be a decently strong, middle of the road army that still requires some finesse to use correctly. They also reduced the reliance on Scatter Lasers and Fire Dragons by making Brightlances cheaper across the board, so now there are a few more viable anti-tank weapons in the army. They even got a good air-to-air fighter. Eldar are well off.

djn wrote:
I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

The main complaint here seems to be that you can't find a guarunteed I-Win unit after a day of reading the codex. A bloo bloo bloooo.

Virtually everything in the codex either got cheaper, got buffed, or more likely, both. Here's a quick comparison of the Fast Attack page between the last 2 Eldar codexes:

Shining Spears cheaper by 10pts each
Warp Spiders cheaper by 3pts each, plus huge buffs to mobility and firepower
Swooping Hawks cheaper by 5pts each, plus mobility and firepower boosts
Vypers are the same base price, but with BS4 and cheaper weapon upgrades (some of which are also buffed)

That's just one page. You don't have to look very far for more. Unless of course you were hoping for Avatars at 5pts each that could be taken as Troops choices and automatically grant an invulnerable save to everything within 48". Then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

 Brother SRM wrote:
So your problems are:
1. Something literally every army has had, and will continue to have
2. Things got cheaper or became better values from a points perspective
3. Your personal preference

Yeah, I'm not really seeing these problems at all.

Don't we end up reading something similar to this everytime a new codex drops? First ita complaining about how they acrewed up your old army, then the xomplaints about new books being unbalanced or overpowered.

Give it six months.

Yeah I'm used to orks having random psychic powers, that makes sense. but I would think an eldar would be able to prepare his spells before a fight.

 Icculus wrote:
Yeah I'm used to orks having random psychic powers, that makes sense. but I would think an eldar would be able to prepare his spells before a fight.

You'd also think a Marine Librarian or Hive Tyrant would too. Decades of training, direct access to the hive mind, etc, etc.

However GW has decided that extra randomness makes the game more entertaining, so it's something everyone needs to put up with.

Well having more randomness also prevents people from developing a perfect army and encourages people to buy more models to try out different tactics

As a long time eldar player, this codex makes me happy. A lot of the things i want along with toning down of some of the OP stuff (eldrad). Wraith stuff is very cheesy as it fits with no part of the fluff until now (most craftworlds dont even use wraith constructs at all).

I do wish pathfinders werent so expensive
I do wish powers for eldrad could be rerolled or something (are you telling me one of the oldest characters in the universe doenst know how to use the most essential eldar powers?)
I do wish eldar had a assault transport for our melee units
I do wish our fliers were at all useful
I do wish guardians became useful
I do wish the wraithknight had 5A WS5 for that cost or lance on his weapons
But i dont need any of those. The army has enough things in each slot to keep me happy. Running the old codex for so long i am comfortable with a lot of the play of each unit. This edition just buffed the same playstyle and make a few units that had no purpose cost effective. I can deal with that.

 zephoid wrote:
As a long time eldar player, this codex makes me happy. A lot of the things i want along with toning down of some of the OP stuff (eldrad). Wraith stuff is very cheesy as it fits with no part of the fluff until now (most craftworlds dont even use wraith constructs at all).

Wrong on that point. Spirit host formations have always been available to all craftworlds ever since 2nd edition Epic (i.e. 1990's). All craftworlds will use wraith constructs. Iyanden is just noted for doing so in greater frequency since they were attacked by Kraken.

Also:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320010_Swordwind_Part_3_-_Baran_War.pdf

Biel-Tan, using wraithguard and wraithlords.

Wraithguard are only used in the defense of the craftworld or for missions of great importance. The loss of a eldar is regretable. The loss of a wraith construct is essentially stripping souls from the infinity circuit. I think every codex that i have read has included something to the likes that using wraithguard is essentially tomb robbing. Iyaden uses wraith constructs more often due to the smaller population and out of necessity. Current in-game eldar tactics is throwing them at the enemy as much as possible. Its like making 5 point horde guardians.

 zephoid wrote:
Wraithguard are only used in the defense of the craftworld or for missions of great importance. The loss of a eldar is regretable. The loss of a wraith construct is essentially stripping souls from the infinity circuit. I think every codex that i have read has included something to the likes that using wraithguard is essentially tomb robbing. Iyaden uses wraith constructs more often due to the smaller population and out of necessity. Current in-game eldar tactics is throwing them at the enemy as much as possible. Its like making 5 point horde guardians.

And that is a backtrack from your earlier claim other craftworlds didn't use wraith constructs at all.

Wraith constructs are also durable. The spirit stone within can often survive the destruction of the construct and then be re-used.

In other words, there is no grounds to criticize another player as not fluffy if they choose to include wraith constructs.

1. I do agree with the random psychic powers being nerfed. we rely too much on force multipliers and to lose the certainty of getting fortune or others is terrible.
2. I made a list for an upcoming tournament with the old codex then when I got the new one I substituted the old points costs for the new ones and the same army was about 150 points CHEAPER than the other one
3. I don't really a problem with there being so many wraith constructs. personally, I like wraithgrard.

 I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
Disagree strongly. I think you gloss over the massive positive changes - battle focus, shuriken rending, BS4 etc - and concentrate on things that are still weaknesses. Of course there are still weaknesses. If everything in the army was the best unit ever then every non-eldar player would (justifiably) be complaining.

Let's just experiment with new rules and armies and enjoy the excitement of fresh options+possibilities, before we go around bemoaning our fate.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly said it well: you glossed over the positive changes and concentrate on the weaknesses

 zephoid wrote:
Wraithguard are only used in the defense of the craftworld or for missions of great importance. The loss of a eldar is regretable. The loss of a wraith construct is essentially stripping souls from the infinity circuit. I think every codex that i have read has included something to the likes that using wraithguard is essentially tomb robbing. Iyaden uses wraith constructs more often due to the smaller population and out of necessity. Current in-game eldar tactics is throwing them at the enemy as much as possible. Its like making 5 point horde guardians.

Well fluff and rules do not always translate 1 to 1. There needs to be a variety of units available to make the army interesting, I think you are fighting an uphill losing battle here.

Good bye jetbike Seer council, Hello Guardian Jetbikes and Warp Spiders!

I feel sorry for the poor fellows that bought and converted Jetbike Seers. that's gotta hurt

You can still take a jetseer council.

:edit:

They are actually cheaper now, if you count in the psychic powers, which you no longer have to pay for.
Just done the maths on it, it's 130pts cheaper for a similarly equipped 10 warlock/1 farseer unit.
Yup, they've been nerfed to death...

 marv335 wrote:
You can still take a jetseer council, Granted, they have gone up 5 pts/model, but you can still do it.

And I'd still throw a fit if you did because of my bad memories of how hard they are to kill and how much hurt they can unleash.

 Smarteye wrote:
Good bye jetbike Seer council, Hello Guardian Jetbikes and Warp Spiders!

I feel sorry for the poor fellows that bought and converted Jetbike Seers. that's gotta hurt

What's going to interesting is when people begin to realize that this army, like the Tau army will make excellent allies. Standing on it's own merits? Give it few months for additional FAQ's to tone it down if any.

I've gone over the book and with some odd decisions and so on, I can only spot one single item that got nerfed. Hard. Into the crust of whatever asteroid 6th edition placed them on in the last codex. It's not Howling Banshees, which still languish in a twilight realm where they need a transport that doesn't exist. It's...

Fire Dragons.

Fuegan, on the other hand, stick him in a 10 man Warlock Council and with some careful manipulation of Look Out Sir! you'll be able to make an absolute monster.

Fire dragons are still pretty good, being okayishly tough and very reliable meltagun spammers. When you spam special weapons in those kinds of quantities they become drastically more effective. See burnaboyz for further proof and how they've become virtually unassaultable due to all the overwatch they can put out.

 Mahtamori wrote:
I've gone over the book and with some odd decisions and so on, I can only spot one single item that got nerfed. Hard. Into the crust of whatever asteroid 6th edition placed them on in the last codex. It's not Howling Banshees, which still languish in a twilight realm where they need a transport that doesn't exist. It's...

Fire Dragons.

If this is true, then Dire Avengers should be absolutely rubbish.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
I've gone over the book and with some odd decisions and so on, I can only spot one single item that got nerfed. Hard. Into the crust of whatever asteroid 6th edition placed them on in the last codex. It's not Howling Banshees, which still languish in a twilight realm where they need a transport that doesn't exist. It's...

Fire Dragons.

If this is true, then Dire Avengers should be absolutely rubbish.

And they're not at all.

 Mahtamori wrote:
I've gone over the book and with some odd decisions and so on, I can only spot one single item that got nerfed. Hard. Into the crust of whatever asteroid 6th edition placed them on in the last codex. It's not Howling Banshees, which still languish in a twilight realm where they need a transport that doesn't exist. It's...

Fire Dragons.

Are you high? They went up by 2 points and got a 3+ save for the trouble. Not to mention Battle Focus to help get into perfect 2D6 Melta range and more survivable Wave Serpents to get them there.

If anything, the only downside to Fire Dragons now is that there are actually affordable alternatives in the codex in other slots, since we're no longer paying 40pts for each Bright Lance.

I think that Fire dragons and bright lances will make monstrous creature spammers have a very bad day indeed. They won't care about your T6 or armor save and the Eldar can bring enough of them to bring down just about any MC in the game in one round of shooting, fire dragons can even do it with just a single unit.

 Kain wrote:

djn wrote:
So new codex and as a long time Eldar player and fan (nearly 20 years!) I'm really unhappy with the new rules. I hate to start a thread so negatively but there are a number things which I think make this a poor release;

1. All random psychic powers - Eldar are reliant on these as force multipliers and the loss of certainty in gaining powers makes us a whole lot weaker.
2. Expensive units - With some exceptions, autarchs and bikes namely, everything is over priced for how fragile it is.
3. Wraith constructs everywhere - this seems to be the focus of the release, understandably to sell more models but I've always been non-plussed by them. The wraith knight seems like a missed opportunity, no doubt it will sell well but it doesn't do much for its points.

It's not all negative as I like the blade storm rule (ap2 small arms what's not to like!) but even that is soured by the ranges staying the same. Jetbikes are arguably the best scoring units in the game if they weren't before and the much maligned swooping hawks actually seem to be reasonably decent. Also the Vaul's wrath platforms look cost effective and dangerous barrage weapons, along with Serpents kicking out decent firepower too.

I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

I just had such hig hopes, probably raised my expectations too high after the awesome Tau book. So much of the Eldar powers and gear are very situational, expensive and on non-durable platforms, I know we're specialists and everything needs to work in concert but I fail to see how we won't get smashed off the table by other 6th ed armies.

Heres hoping the mini codi help to elevate the Eldar from mediocrity.

MOTHER OF THE EMPRAH.

Quite possibly one of the most amusing things ever, lol

 xttz wrote:

djn wrote:
I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

The main complaint here seems to be that you can't find a guarunteed I-Win unit after a day of reading the codex. A bloo bloo bloooo.

Virtually everything in the codex either got cheaper, got buffed, or more likely, both. Here's a quick comparison of the Fast Attack page between the last 2 Eldar codexes:

Shining Spears cheaper by 10pts each
Warp Spiders cheaper by 3pts each, plus huge buffs to mobility and firepower
Swooping Hawks cheaper by 5pts each, plus mobility and firepower boosts
Vypers are the same base price, but with BS4 and cheaper weapon upgrades (some of which are also buffed)

That's just one page. You don't have to look very far for more. Unless of course you were hoping for Avatars at 5pts each that could be taken as Troops choices and automatically grant an invulnerable save to everything within 48". Then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

Shut up and marry me already.

 Kain wrote:
I think that Fire dragons and bright lances will make monstrous creature spammers have a very bad day indeed. They won't care about your T6 or armor save and the Eldar can bring enough of them to bring down just about any MC in the game in one round of shooting, fire dragons can even do it with just a single unit.

My poor riptide does not like this news. I might have to actually start using the nova reactor for the 3++ save...

I look at it as an extension of the Winds of Magic idea from Warhammer Fantasy.

In Fantasy, Wizards are able to cast spells to a greater or lesser effect based on how much latent magic is on the field each turn. In 40k, psykers could be limited in what powers they can draw on based on the tides of energy from the warp. My understanding is the Warp is like, emotions and stuff ~ so as the various emotions ebb and flow in any area of warpspace the powers a psyker can draw on, that are reliant on different types of warp energy, are changed.

Then again, I give zero feths about the canon background of 40k and just look at it in a superficial way, filling in the gaps or the stuff I don't like with what makes sense or seems cool.

 Dakkamite wrote:
I look at it as an extension of the Winds of Magic idea from Warhammer Fantasy.

In Fantasy, Wizards are able to cast spells to a greater or lesser effect based on how much latent magic is on the field each turn. In 40k, psykers could be limited in what powers they can draw on based on the tides of energy from the warp. My understanding is the Warp is like, emotions and stuff ~ so as the various emotions ebb and flow in any area of warpspace the powers a psyker can draw on, that are reliant on different types of warp energy, are changed.

Then again, I give zero feths about the canon background of 40k and just look at it in a superficial way, filling in the gaps or the stuff I don't like with what makes sense or seems cool.

It would have been nice if instead of powers being random, their strength was. So you rolled to generate warp points based on mastery level and that made the power more effective, such as certain witchfires getting +1S / more shots per point, or Endurance giving 4+ / 5+ / 6+ FNP. If they balanced the points generation right, it would mean you'd need to be very lucky to get the strong bonuses.

They could also open up the chance for more risk/reward here. Say you can roll between 1 and 3 D3's to generate warp points, but if you roll any double the psyker suffers Perils. Would make you question if you really need that extra dice.

Ive gone other this thread and read my codex over a few times. As a whole the codex is stronger, however the toughest part of playing eldar is that you have to be so very damn careful about where you place it takes a while to make sure your doing the right thing because were so squishy. That was with fortune, oh wait now we dont even have it for sure >.< psychic powers are awesome in this codex and eldar would be Op if you could pick. You could have a 8 man wraithguard squad with a farseer and spirit seer, guarded with a wraithlord and wraithknight. You could re roll armour saves with fortune, re roll to hit with guide, you could give them a 2+ save with the runes of battle skill and heal your wraithlord or wraithknight behind you with your other spell from spiritseer, ontop re roll ones from spirit marker LOL This wraith combo would powerhouse through everything.

Also farseers have 3 psychic powers with guide as a primarus youll probably end up getting fortune and doom quite often.

Jain zar Karandras and meugan ra all have anywhere from 5-10 strength ap 2 attacks at initiative 7. They are boss in close combat and Zain jar is one of the best melee fighters now imo.

Eldar weapon platforms are OP also lol!

Long time eldar player and looser but with this new codex i think well stand a better chance with Laser lock and cheaper brightlances we may have a chance. Oh and Wraithknights are amazing, you have two heavy wraithcannons, a starcannon and a scatter laser, so all your cannons arw twinlinked because nobody missed with 4 shots. Why are you complaing, on 6's its instant death as if S10 ap 2 wasent enough? laughable. The wraithknight is the staying power we needed.

JWhex wrote:If you think the Iyanden codex is going to present you with a lot of new rules for units and characters I think you should prepare yourself for disappointment.

More disappointment!? Perhaps, I suspect there may be more though; Ulthwe said-hann etc.

JWhex wrote:The real question, that is interesting is, how does this codex compare in general to the books for other armies. I am sure all long term players have their well fixed ideas and expectations but do you seriously expect GW is going to fullfill your personal and probably very specific wishes?

Not at all. I just want a competitive and externally balanced codex. Example; autarch wargear mandiblasters costs 5x as much as the infinitely superior Tau neuroweb jammer.

JWhex wrote:Can the Eldar compete? Do they have multiple decent builds? How do they synergize with available allies? These are the kind of questions that need to be answered before labelling the codex as a failure or success.

Sounds reasonable but from my pov it is a failure. Cheap hq or hq with a specific skillset plus two min bike squads as someone's allies maybe?

JWhex wrote:Every player has their own personal wishlist, which is not terribly interesting.

I'm not wish listing or attempting to pique your personal interest tbh. The random elements just smack of a way around balancing the powers. I can run the bike council with 2 farseers and 10 warlocks, more often than not I'd have a 2+ fortuned squad I just don't like that random unreliable factor, be interesting to know the odds of getting the powers and them working every turn.

JWhex wrote:Everyone else gets their psychic powers at random and the design team likes the random table idea, its astonishing that people expected the Eldar to be able to pick their powers.

Primaris powers take the randomness out of psychic powers and allow you pick them so not so astonishing really. When farseers have access to divination and prescience why would you want guide? For a dying race wouldn't fortune make more sense?

JWhex wrote:
The Eldar received some nice buffs but the demon army received way more random crap than anyone should have to deal with. Have you even built a list or played a game yet? Do you think the general increase in BS to 4 is not any good. What about being able to shoot and run, or run and shoot?

I've built lists but no games played yet, it's my initial reaction and time will tell if I'm on the right track. BS4 is ok and takes the reliance on seers away especially for vehicles that can twin link with scatters anyway. 1-6 inch extra movement again ok but if you're running foot eldar I think you'd be in trouble due to the lack of durability.

JWhex wrote:I think your complaints are very premature.

Fair enough, we're all entitled to our opinion. Thanks for taking the time to make your counter points.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Disagree strongly. I think you gloss over the massive positive changes - battle focus, shuriken rending, BS4 etc - and concentrate on things that are still weaknesses. Of course there are still weaknesses. If everything in the army was the best unit ever then every non-eldar player would (justifiably) be complaining.

I mentioned shuriken rending as a positive and I disagree that in the 6th ed landscape battle focus and BS4 for an army with twin linking and psychic equivalents so readily available are massively positive.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Let's just experiment with new rules and armies and enjoy the excitement of fresh options+possibilities, before we go around bemoaning our fate.

Fair enough, one of the reasons I posted was to see if it was just my own expectations which were too high. However I've not seen anything yet to convince me that its not a poor release. I do hope I'm wrong.

I'm on the fence with the OP. Like any Kelly dex, there are some very big misses and the good things aren't Wardian good... just 'ok'. I mean I agree with most here that things have improved, but you have to consider how bottom tier the codex (which he wrote prior...) was to begin with.

And just like the Dark Eldar book, a great deal of what's in this one is useless. A lot of the old problems still exist. And a lot of the new things aren't great.

 xttz wrote:

djn wrote:
I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

The main complaint here seems to be that you can't find a guarunteed I-Win unit after a day of reading the codex. A bloo bloo bloooo.

Virtually everything in the codex either got cheaper, got buffed, or more likely, both.

While true pretty much everything got some sort of buff (holy gak wave serpents) or remains very good (Eldrad will still be in every Eldar list I face...), it doesn't mean what they got was useful. Banshees are still awful, Vypers are still far too expensive for AV10 open topped gun platforms, shining spears aren't exactly going to wow anyone for 25ppm and only being effective in the first round of close combat and a great whopping A1, Guardians still lack the range and resiliency to be effective and cost almost twice what guardsmen do without offering twice as much value, etc.


And I'm primarily a Guard player

As a Russ heavy guard player this news of cheap lances is worrying.

Nvs wrote:
I'm on the fence with the OP. Like any Kelly dex, there are some very big misses and the good things aren't Wardian good... just 'ok'. I mean I agree with most here that things have improved, but you have to consider how bottom tier the codex (which he wrote prior...) was to begin with.

And just like the Dark Eldar book, a great deal of what's in this one is useless. A lot of the old problems still exist. And a lot of the new things aren't great.

The Codex is fine, it's on the same power-level as the previous 6th ed Codices. I don't even see it suffering the DE "useless units" problem, unless we're talking about the special characters or something.

I had my first game with the new codex today and I wasn't disappointed at all! Wave serpents are very durable with their shield, and the scatter lasers making your shuriken cannons twin linked is brutal. Battle focus is also a way bigger deal than I thought it would be. It allowed my dire avengers to get out of a serpent and then run over and shoot a unit of cultists, an allowed a unit of fire dragons to do the same to a daemon prince and then run over an kill a predator the next turn.

Illic nightspear is pretty nasty as well, especially with Farseer support, and him and his unit of 10 pathfinders killed six fnp noise marines in a single turn of shooting. I did get lucky with my powers though. I rolled both fortune and doom, and swapped eldritch storm for guide, which while worse than prescience is still a decent power. I would say rolling all 3 powers on the eldar table gives you a very good chance of getting at least one power that you want, and guide is still far from the worst power you could end up with.

I know it's still early, but based on this game, the eldar dex seems pretty capable if you watch your movement and play to your army's strengths. We ended up calling the game at the top of turn 5 because all my opponent had left was 5 cultists and a las pred with 2 hps left. Facing 3 scatter laser/cannon/holo serpents, 5 rangers, 4 pathfinders, an unwouded illic and Farseer, 4 hairlines, 7 dire avengers and 5 warp spiders.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I had my first game with the new codex today and I wasn't disappointed at all! Wave serpents are very durable with their shield, and the scatter lasers making your shuriken cannons twin linked is brutal. Battle focus is also a way bigger deal than I thought it would be. It allowed my dire avengers to get out of a serpent and then run over and shoot a unit of cultists, an allowed a unit of fire dragons to do the same to a daemon prince and then run over an kill a predator the next turn.

Illic nightspear is pretty nasty as well, especially with Farseer support, and him and his unit of 10 pathfinders killed six fnp noise marines in a single turn of shooting. I did get lucky with my powers though. I rolled both fortune and doom, and swapped eldritch storm for guide, which while worse than prescience is still a decent power. I would say rolling all 3 powers on the eldar table gives you a very good chance of getting at least one power that you want, and guide is still far from the worst power you could end up with.

I know it's still early, but based on this game, the eldar dex seems pretty capable if you watch your movement and play to your army's strengths. We ended up calling the game at the top of turn 5 because all my opponent had left was 5 cultists and a las pred with 2 hps left. Facing 3 scatter laser/cannon/holo serpents, 5 rangers, 4 pathfinders, an unwouded illic and Farseer, 4 hairlines, 7 dire avengers and 5 warp spiders.

Very nice. I'm thinking just taking Divination or Telepathy is going to be the best way to go with Farseer powers. There are just too many dudes on the Fate lore, to my liking.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:


Jain zar Karandras and meugan ra all have anywhere from 5-10 strength ap 2 attacks at initiative 7. They are boss in close combat and Zain jar is one of the best melee fighters now imo.

The Maugetar is AP 3 in assault.

Long time eldar player and looser but with this new codex i think well stand a better chance with Laser lock and cheaper brightlances we may have a chance. Oh and Wraithknights are amazing, you have two heavy wraithcannons, a starcannon and a scatter laser, so all your cannons arw twinlinked because nobody missed with 4 shots. Why are you complaing, on 6's its instant death as if S10 ap 2 wasent enough? laughable. The wraithknight is the staying power we needed.

The Knight can only fire two weapons though. So you'd have to give one wraith cannon up for the chance to twin link the other.

Hopefully an FAQ changes it, maybe?

 xttz wrote:

djn wrote:
I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

The main complaint here seems to be that you can't find a guarunteed I-Win unit after a day of reading the codex. A bloo bloo bloooo.

Hardly, I've set out my issues with the codex, the above is frustration with random powers and the fate primaris. I'm just expressing my disappointment with the codex whilst trying to have an intelligent and reasonable conversation. Thanks for your input...

 xttz wrote:

Virtually everything in the codex either got cheaper, got buffed, or more likely, both. Here's a quick comparison of the Fast Attack page between the last 2 Eldar codexes:

Shining Spears cheaper by 10pts each
Warp Spiders cheaper by 3pts each, plus huge buffs to mobility and firepower
Swooping Hawks cheaper by 5pts each, plus mobility and firepower boosts
Vypers are the same base price, but with BS4 and cheaper weapon upgrades (some of which are also buffed)

That's just one page. You don't have to look very far for more. Unless of course you were hoping for Avatars at 5pts each that could be taken as Troops choices and automatically grant an invulnerable save to everything within 48". Then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

Looking at the units in a vacuum between the last codex and the new one doesn't make them effective in the current meta.

Spears are still very expensive and have no grenades.
Warp spiders are admittedly a high light, I've really liked them since 4th ed but T3 3 up isn't going to last long.
Swooping hawks I mentioned in my OP. small 6 man harassing/line breaker squad could be useful.
Vypers suck, Tau piranhas are superior IMO. Av10 goes down to small arms.

I'm struggling to understand how these expensive, elite units can compete against the likes of torrent of fire armies or drakes. Eldar could mech up but serpents whilst they seem effective and durable are still expensive. 3 glances or a lucky one shot later though...

These "expensive elite units" compete via being taken alongside other units that complement them. Eldar have never been an army that you can just rely on one unit or two to carry the day; they've always been a glass cannon army, and frankly the comment about "T3 3+" not lasting long suggests that you don't understand this.

I'm sorry, but if you can't build a list that covers for each unit's weaknesses correctly, then you're clearly not playing the right army.

 Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
These "expensive elite units" compete via being taken alongside other units that complement them. Eldar have never been an army that you can just rely on one unit or two to carry the day; they've always been a glass cannon army, and frankly the comment about "T3 3+" not lasting long suggests that you don't understand this.

I'm sorry, but if you can't build a list that covers for each unit's weaknesses correctly, then you're clearly not playing the right army.

Well said sir!

djn wrote:

Vypers suck, Tau piranhas are superior IMO. Av10 goes down to small arms.

War Walkers have the same statline and they are widely considered a solid unit. So do Vypers 'suck'? Let's take a look!

For 60pts you can get either a Vyper or a War Walker with dual Shuriken Cannons. The War Walker has a 5+ invuln, while the Vyper gets a 5+ Jink save as it moves around (4+ for flat out). The main difference comes down to flexibility. War Walkers can fit a wider selection of weapons, whilst one of the Vyper's options can only ever be a Shuriken cannon. In exchange for less choice, the Vyper can instead move 30" per turn compared to the Walkers 6+D6". This offers great opportunities to reposition and respond to threats all over the board, or escape from potentially crippling melee encounters that Walkers may have trouble avoiding.

Also the Vypers use a slightly-less in demand FA slot, so if your HS is full they're a viable alternative weapons platform.

djn wrote:

I'm struggling to understand how these expensive, elite units can compete against the likes of torrent of fire armies or drakes. Eldar could mech up but serpents whilst they seem effective and durable are still expensive. 3 glances or a lucky one shot later though...

You must have missed the post earlier in this thread where someone worked out that it takes an average 27 lascannon hits to drop a holo-field equipped Wave Serpent moving flat-out (which can cross the battlefield on 1 turn). The interesting thing is that it only takes 21 hits to do the same thing to a Land Raider... which costs twice as much.

 Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:

Warp spiders are admittedly a high light, I've really liked them since 4th ed but T3 3 up isn't going to last long.

These "expensive elite units" compete via being taken alongside other units that complement them. Eldar have never been an army that you can just rely on one unit or two to carry the day; they've always been a glass cannon army, and frankly the comment about "T3 3+" not lasting long suggests that you don't understand this.

I'm sorry, but if you can't build a list that covers for each unit's weaknesses correctly, then you're clearly not playing the right army.

Gorskar has hit the nail on the head here. Your comment about Warp Spiders shows exactly how little you understand Eldar.

In basically every incarnation of their rules, in every format (including BFG, Epic, etc), Eldar have been a fast, hard-hitting army that relies on speed to stay alive because they can't weather much damage. The new Battle Focus rule is the perfect demonstration of that, as you can now get units into perfect position to wipe out the enemy (such as Fire Dragons running into Melta range for the extra pen dice), or being able to take your shots then get out back into cover (most Shuriken units).
Warp Spiders are by far the best example of this trend, as they can move 6+2D6" ignoring terrain, shoot/run or run/shoot, then jump back 2D6" away again (again ignoring terrain). Why is T3 3+ are problem now? To be any tougher they'd effectively be a space marine, and marines certainly can't move like that.

By trying to make Eldar into a durable force, you're just trying to make apple pie out of oranges.

 xttz wrote:



By trying to make Eldar into a durable force, you're just trying to make apple pie out of oranges.

Or perhaps an even more suitable metaphor is trying to make a pound cake with cream cheese instead of flour? Cause...those belong in cheesecakes, which are softer but are enjoyed for different reasons.

......mmm...cheesecake.

So we're still talking about Eldar?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eldar-Army-Seer-Council-on-Jetbikes-15-Models-Pro-Converted-/261217422061?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item3cd1c58aed

This guy could be out of luck lol

Well, fortune like others is now one of the powers to roll on a table. That could be forseen when looking at the previously released codices, and it make a Seer Council less playable in the new ed.

The sheer amount of ranged AP2 or better in this codex is borderline insane. Bright Lances, Wraithcannon, Suncannon, Fusion Gun, Starcannon, Shurikat weapons w/Bladestorm, D-weapons, Sniper weapons, and Monofilimant weapons.

Add to that the various close combat options, such as Harlequin rending, Scorpion Claw, most of the attacks from Phoenix Lords, and the Avatar, you have an army that laughs at MEQ and TEQ armies. My poor Crimson Fists are NOT looking forward to having to play against the new Eldar.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, fortune like others is now one of the powers to roll on a table. That could be forseen when looking at the previously released codices, and it make a Seer Council less playable in the new ed.

Indeed, however one of the main Space Elf power builds recently was the DE Beaststar, hinging off Eldrad and Invisibility, which is the same chance roll as Fortune is now. But the thing is the Warlock powers, with 8-10 rolls should yield at least one of each and they work as De-buffs too. So the council goes from 3+/4++ ld rerolled to 2+, 2-3+ cover, 4++, Fearless (both from the power and from a Shardseer in combat), with potentially the enemy fighting at -1s, -1i, -1ws, -1sv, -3ld.... there is a potential there for a hell of a lot more damage, for not much more costs (once you factor in not paying 5-15pts per power).

Equally, Beaststar benefits as when taken as an ally its now point efficient to take two farseers, rather than Eldrad, as for the same points they're combined ML6 and can tag along on jetbikes, again kitted out with Shard of Anaris (esp when rolling lucky on Invisibility on one seer first and the second snags Death Mission)

Either way I see continued potential for both super fast Eldar/Deldar deathstars.

I was hoping there'd be some option to take aspect warriors as troops if you take their respective Phoenix Lord.

I only skimmed through the codex in the shop to try to find something about it and couldn't. No eldar for me!

I've always wanted a swooping hawk army or striking scorpions or something cool.

 foxyfennec wrote:
I was hoping there'd be some option to take aspect warriors as troops if you take their respective Phoenix Lord.

I only skimmed through the codex in the shop to try to find something about it and couldn't. No eldar for me!

I've always wanted a swooping hawk army or striking scorpions or something cool.

I gave that some thought but I could picture Striking Scorpions just being annoying that way, and it would seem odd to have Aspects like those being so heavily featured. They're good as it is now, imho.

 foxyfennec wrote:
I was hoping there'd be some option to take aspect warriors as troops if you take their respective Phoenix Lord.

I only skimmed through the codex in the shop to try to find something about it and couldn't. No eldar for me!

I've always wanted a swooping hawk army or striking scorpions or something cool.

Always a possiblity with future sub-dexes like the upcoming Ilyanden book that will almost certainly include WG as troops without taking a spiritseer, and probably put WL in the Elites chart.

 Farseer_Kaiser wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, fortune like others is now one of the powers to roll on a table. That could be forseen when looking at the previously released codices, and it make a Seer Council less playable in the new ed.

Indeed, however one of the main Space Elf power builds recently was the DE Beaststar, hinging off Eldrad and Invisibility, which is the same chance roll as Fortune is now. But the thing is the Warlock powers, with 8-10 rolls should yield at least one of each and they work as De-buffs too. So the council goes from 3+/4++ ld rerolled to 2+, 2-3+ cover, 4++, Fearless (both from the power and from a Shardseer in combat), with potentially the enemy fighting at -1s, -1i, -1ws, -1sv, -3ld.... there is a potential there for a hell of a lot more damage, for not much more costs (once you factor in not paying 5-15pts per power).

Equally, Beaststar benefits as when taken as an ally its now point efficient to take two farseers, rather than Eldrad, as for the same points they're combined ML6 and can tag along on jetbikes, again kitted out with Shard of Anaris (esp when rolling lucky on Invisibility on one seer first and the second snags Death Mission)

Either way I see continued potential for both super fast Eldar/Deldar deathstars.

Deathstars relying on powers are a gamble. I'd stay away from them. If constructed correctly, Eldar can put out an insane number of shots thanks to bladestorm and laserlock.

 foxyfennec wrote:
I was hoping there'd be some option to take aspect warriors as troops if you take their respective Phoenix Lord.

I only skimmed through the codex in the shop to try to find something about it and couldn't. No eldar for me!

I've always wanted a swooping hawk army or striking scorpions or something cool.

I was thinking this as well, but upon further consideration I've realized it probably would have been pretty over the top.

 foxyfennec wrote:
I was hoping there'd be some option to take aspect warriors as troops if you take their respective Phoenix Lord.

I heard a rumour that if you take Asurmen, you can use Dire Avengers are troops! But keep it quiet, it'll be too abused if everyone knows...

 xttz wrote:

 foxyfennec wrote:
I was hoping there'd be some option to take aspect warriors as troops if you take their respective Phoenix Lord.

I heard a rumour that if you take Asurmen, you can use Dire Avengers are troops! But keep it quiet, it'll be too abused if everyone knows...

Nice try. Dire Avengers are already troops as they were in the previous edition.

 xttz wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
I've gone over the book and with some odd decisions and so on, I can only spot one single item that got nerfed. Hard. Into the crust of whatever asteroid 6th edition placed them on in the last codex. It's not Howling Banshees, which still languish in a twilight realm where they need a transport that doesn't exist. It's...

Fire Dragons.

Are you high? They went up by 2 points and got a 3+ save for the trouble. Not to mention Battle Focus to help get into perfect 2D6 Melta range and more survivable Wave Serpents to get them there.

If anything, the only downside to Fire Dragons now is that there are actually affordable alternatives in the codex in other slots, since we're no longer paying 40pts for each Bright Lance.

Read the codexes before you insult people. You are wrong and I won't tell you how, just compare the relevant 4th and 6th edition codex entries (or read below for a hint).

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
I've gone over the book and with some odd decisions and so on, I can only spot one single item that got nerfed. Hard. Into the crust of whatever asteroid 6th edition placed them on in the last codex. It's not Howling Banshees, which still languish in a twilight realm where they need a transport that doesn't exist. It's...

Fire Dragons.

If this is true, then Dire Avengers should be absolutely rubbish.

Completely inaccurate analogy. Dire Avengers went up 1 point in price and gained Battle Focus, Bladestorm and Counter-Attack as well as benefiting more from Shimmershield (if you take it). Fire Dragons gained an armour save and battle focus at a grossly disproportionate expense, while not changing the fact that they are a specialized unit that are optimal in size of 5 or 6 specifically without an exarch. Each additional Fire Dragon you purchase will contribute a declining amount to the unit's effectiveness which is something you do not see with most units.
Someone used the example of Burnas, this is a bad analogy since the Burna operates in a completely different way and is all about wound saturation, not to mention that a flamer's secondary job is to protect against assaults. Even leaving this example behind, Fire Dragons specialize in taking care of a problem that is becoming more and more rare. It should also be noted that Fire Dragons in 3rd edition were 17 points and not very commonly used for exactly the same reasons - mech is not so common as in end of 4th and all of 5th.
Their current point cost and abilities are more appropriate for 5th edition (although I'd argue that initial cost is right, but extras should be cheaper), not 6th edition.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:These "expensive elite units" compete via being taken alongside other units that complement them. Eldar have never been an army that you can just rely on one unit or two to carry the day; they've always been a glass cannon army, and frankly the comment about "T3 3+" not lasting long suggests that you don't understand this.

Really? From previous editions; Seer councils, harlequins, holo skimmers.
Lets look at spiders against some current ‘top tier’ match ups (imo). Now I’m well aware of using los blocking terrain, focus fire, multiple threats and distance to reduce return fire but even with shooting then running back and the jetpack move you will be lucky to get out of the threat range of fire warriors or psybolt ammo GK.
What about Mr Helldrake too? Yes our fighter (lovely model btw) has a good chance to take it down but a vector strike and a flamer later means a lot of dead spiders.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I'm sorry, but if you can't build a list that covers for each unit's weaknesses correctly, then you're clearly not playing the right army.

Apology accepted. You don't know me or my playing experience, just as I don’t know yours (other than my nearly 20 years experience if you digested my OP). It’s very naive to assume I've been playing the wrong army for all that time because I have some criticism for the codex and our pov differs.

xttz wrote:

djn wrote:

Vypers suck, Tau piranhas are superior IMO. Av10 goes down to small arms.

War Walkers have the same statline and they are widely considered a solid unit. So do Vypers 'suck'? Let's take a look!

For 60pts you can get either a Vyper or a War Walker with dual Shuriken Cannons. The War Walker has a 5+ invuln, while the Vyper gets a 5+ Jink save as it moves around (4+ for flat out). The main difference comes down to flexibility. War Walkers can fit a wider selection of weapons, whilst one of the Vyper's options can only ever be a Shuriken cannon. In exchange for less choice, the Vyper can instead move 30" per turn compared to the Walkers 6+D6". This offers great opportunities to reposition and respond to threats all over the board, or escape from potentially crippling melee encounters that Walkers may have trouble avoiding.

Also the Vypers use a slightly-less in demand FA slot, so if your HS is full they're a viable alternative weapons platform.

Shuriken walkers aren’t considered solid by me. Scatter walkers with reliable fortune were however. If you’re a 24 inch range av10 platform you’re needing to be in small arms threat range to put shots out and that really isn’t a good place to be.

xttz wrote:

djn wrote:

I'm struggling to understand how these expensive, elite units can compete against the likes of torrent of fire armies or drakes. Eldar could mech up but serpents whilst they seem effective and durable are still expensive. 3 glances or a lucky one shot later though...

You must have missed the post earlier in this thread where someone worked out that it takes an average 27 lascannon hits to drop a holo-field equipped Wave Serpent moving flat-out (which can cross the battlefield on 1 turn). The interesting thing is that it only takes 21 hits to do the same thing to a Land Raider... which costs twice as much.

I did miss that and it is interesting. As is when Tau strip your cover save and put 3 missile-sides into you that’s statistically 3 glances. Thats not including odds for a pen.
Also when your serpents need to get our close range units into action they could well be in assault range; 9 krak grenades or 27 S4 attacks vs rear av10 should deliver the requisite 3 glances. Again not including the odds for a pen.

Mech was the solution in 5th, I’m not sure it is in sixth unless you can really spam it.

xttz wrote:

 Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:

Warp spiders are admittedly a high light, I've really liked them since 4th ed but T3 3 up isn't going to last long.

These "expensive elite units" compete via being taken alongside other units that complement them. Eldar have never been an army that you can just rely on one unit or two to carry the day; they've always been a glass cannon army, and frankly the comment about "T3 3+" not lasting long suggests that you don't understand this.

I'm sorry, but if you can't build a list that covers for each unit's weaknesses correctly, then you're clearly not playing the right army.

xttz wrote:
Gorskar has hit the nail on the head here. Your comment about Warp Spiders shows exactly how little you understand Eldar.

You’re entitled to your opinion and it’s not about understanding Eldar which really I do. Honest. See the paragraph above regarding spiders, Its about understanding them in the meta. Now I’m willing to admit I could be wrong but I’m yet to see any convincing arguments.

xttz wrote:
In basically every incarnation of their rules, in every format (including BFG, Epic, etc), Eldar have been a fast, hard-hitting army that relies on speed to stay alive because they can't weather much damage. The new Battle Focus rule is the perfect demonstration of that, as you can now get units into perfect position to wipe out the enemy (such as Fire Dragons running into Melta range for the extra pen dice), or being able to take your shots then get out back into cover (most Shuriken units).

I don’t disagree with any of this, but we have always had reliable and durable elements, see the examples I gave above; harlequins which could engineer charges and consolidate into combat (4th), seer councils have always been reliable (3rd onwards - till this codex anyway), serpents and holo skimmers (4th and 5th).

xttz wrote:
Warp Spiders are by far the best example of this trend, as they can move 6+2D6" ignoring terrain, shoot/run or run/shoot, then jump back 2D6" away again (again ignoring terrain). Why is T3 3+ are problem now? To be any tougher they'd effectively be a space marine, and marines certainly can't move like that.
I think I covered this above.
By trying to make Eldar into a durable force, you're just trying to make apple pie out of oranges.

I'm trying to figure out how Eldar can be competitive, reliably.

I'm trying to figure out how Eldar can be competitive, reliably.

The quest has begun yesterday and it seems that its not over yet.

djn wrote:
-snip-

Yeah, I get it. You're mad because, when you put up a thread positing an opinion, people disagreed with you and gave perfectly logical reasons.
Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army. Your playing experience doesn't matter to me, nor does the length of time you've been playing Eldar. There are plenty of people who have demonstrated that your concerns are unfounded, and that, good sir, is that. Just because the army didn't get disproportionate Wardian updates doesn't mean they aren't competitive, you've clearly just not spent enough time examining the codex for the right builds and unit combos.

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how Eldar can be competitive, reliably.

The quest has begun yesterday and it seems that its not over yet.

Apparently a claim to 20 years of experience grants one license to shrug off all disagreement and assess a codex within a day.

 Mahtamori wrote:

Read the codexes before you insult people. You are wrong and I won't tell you how, just compare the relevant 4th and 6th edition codex entries (or read below for a hint).

...

Fire Dragons gained an armour save and battle focus at a grossly disproportionate expense, while not changing the fact that they are a specialized unit that are optimal in size of 5 or 6 specifically without an exarch. Each additional Fire Dragon you purchase will contribute a declining amount to the unit's effectiveness which is something you do not see with most units.
...
Even leaving this example behind, Fire Dragons specialize in taking care of a problem that is becoming more and more rare. It should also be noted that Fire Dragons in 3rd edition were 17 points and not very commonly used for exactly the same reasons - mech is not so common as in end of 4th and all of 5th.

So your argument is that they're over-costed because not everyone uses mech lists anymore, so we'll rarely need to kill more than a couple of tanks in a game? It's not like that's the only unit type Fire Dragons are good at killing. You may have noticed that the mech trend has been replaced (at least in part) by increasingly durable MC's. Daemon Princes, Dreadknights, Wraithknights, Riptides, and of course the ubiquitous Tervigon. Lots of things that can no longer be one-shotted into exploding, and are often dangerous to counter in melee. In this situation those extra Dragons definitely do not offer diminishing returns, as you need to be landing up to 6 wounds at a time.If anything it means we shift away from the 5e approach of 2-3 minimal Fire Dragon squads in Serpents to just 1 squad with a couple more members to chip away those wounds.

But thanks for this gem! I'll save it for when I want to be condescending to someone without needing to backup my points!

 Mahtamori wrote:
You are wrong and I won't tell you how

I've never been a huge fan of Eldar...

But I got an army NIB really cheap. I found that what I have is useless.

Howling Banshees are complete crap. Mainly because there isn't a vehicle for them to charge out of.

Falcons.... my god... Why the hell aren't these Dedicated Transports?! They're fething Razorback equivilents!

Eldrad... Had to say if he's worth taking. His points cost is so high in an army that needs to conserve points. I think 2 Farseers may be better.

I think a common build we might see at first will have an Autarch, Spiritseer, Jetbikes and Wraithguard.

The Autarch will try to keep the jetbikes in reserve for later objective grabbing and spiritseers to gain the wraithguard as troops.

The Wraithguard seem way better than Firedragons imho. If monsters are more common than armour I think the S10 will be better than S8 melta.

And S10 flamers?! Good luck charging that.

I spent a lot of the day yesterday reading and speaking with a long-time Eldar player, and I came away with being really hyped for Eldar even though I don't play them. Their stuff seems really interesting and has the potential for a lot of fun combinations. If anything I'm disappointed that I'm going to have a tougher fight on my hand when I play Eldar. Yes some things got a big nerf like runes of warding but for the most part everything got cheaper or if it did get more expensive, it came equipped with enough gear to make it worth the extra expense.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:
-snip-

Yeah, I get it. You're mad because, when you put up a thread positing an opinion, people disagreed with you and gave perfectly logical reasons.
Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army. Your playing experience doesn't matter to me, nor does the length of time you've been playing Eldar. There are plenty of people who have demonstrated that your concerns are unfounded, and that, good sir, is that. Just because the army didn't get disproportionate Wardian updates doesn't mean they aren't competitive, you've clearly just not spent enough time examining the codex for the right builds and unit combos.

That's right I'm fuming! Or in reality I'm also making counterpoints which you gloss over with the equivalent of 'my friend said its true so there'. I'm enjoying the dialogue to be honest when something meaningful and substantial is being posted.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Titan Atlas wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how Eldar can be competitive, reliably.

The quest has begun yesterday and it seems that its not over yet.

Apparently a claim to 20 years of experience grants one license to shrug off all disagreement and assess a codex within a day.

If by 'shrugging off' you mean raising salient points.

djn wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:
-snip-

Yeah, I get it. You're mad because, when you put up a thread positing an opinion, people disagreed with you and gave perfectly logical reasons.
Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army. Your playing experience doesn't matter to me, nor does the length of time you've been playing Eldar. There are plenty of people who have demonstrated that your concerns are unfounded, and that, good sir, is that. Just because the army didn't get disproportionate Wardian updates doesn't mean they aren't competitive, you've clearly just not spent enough time examining the codex for the right builds and unit combos.

That's right I'm fuming! Or in reality I'm also making counterpoints which you gloss over with the equivalent of 'my friend said its true so there'. I'm enjoying the dialogue to be honest when something meaningful and substantial is being posted.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Titan Atlas wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how Eldar can be competitive, reliably.

The quest has begun yesterday and it seems that its not over yet.

Apparently a claim to 20 years of experience grants one license to shrug off all disagreement and assess a codex within a day.

If by 'shrugging off' you mean raising salient points.

Yup, nothing but salient points here.

djn wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:
-snip-

Yeah, I get it. You're mad because, when you put up a thread positing an opinion, people disagreed with you and gave perfectly logical reasons.
Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army. Your playing experience doesn't matter to me, nor does the length of time you've been playing Eldar. There are plenty of people who have demonstrated that your concerns are unfounded, and that, good sir, is that. Just because the army didn't get disproportionate Wardian updates doesn't mean they aren't competitive, you've clearly just not spent enough time examining the codex for the right builds and unit combos.

That's right I'm fuming! Or in reality I'm also making counterpoints which you gloss over with the equivalent of 'my friend said its true so there'. I'm enjoying the dialogue to be honest when something meaningful and substantial is being posted.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Tell me, then, in the twenty years or so of you playing Eldar, is this the first time you've ever looked at your codex and said to yourself "blimey! My army is toughness 3!"
I ask because, insofar as I can see, your point is that your army isn't "durable" enough. Well, fine, maybe there's a point in that. After all, we all know Eldar glass-cannon capabilities and such, and we know that randomisation of psychic powers has hamstrung the psychic support of Eldar - as it has every other army, but whatever. However, when put to an examination, it seems hard to substantiate the claim that Eldar aren't competitive in any way. Wave Serpents are hard to put down and thus are very effective transports, War Walkers, while flimsy - as they have always been - are still very capable fire support platforms, Banshees.... are sadly as they ever have been, and generally speaking any unit's weaknesses can be offset with the right choice of supporting units, who in turn are covered (in terms of weaknesses) by the unit they're supporting.

Now, let's talk about that twenty-year thing. So you've been in the hobby a long time; good for you, I applaud your dedication. It's rare to see people with that kind of pedigree.
However, do not presume to come on here and wave that around like it makes your opinions that much more valid. The game changes constantly, with every new edition of the main rulebook and every new codex shifting the balance of power. In such a fluid game, being a longtime player has a surprisingly small effect, and frankly, while it may not have been your intent, it came across as elitist and arrogant to try and use it as "proof" that you can judge a codex's worth a mere 24 hours after it's release, a case of "well, I wuz doin' this afore you were even born, youngin!"
Naturally, that wasn't going to sit well.

So, then, now that we've both said how we feel, shall we actually discuss the topic, or shall we carry on with the verbal fistfight?
I leave it up to you.
.

djn wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Kina reminds me of...

 DeffDred wrote:

djn wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Kina reminds me of...

Spoiler:

Preeeeeetty much. I would probably spoiler that image though, just in case an overzealous poster (or butthurt neckbeard) reports it for being an off-topic shot. But spoilering seems to get around that problem

 DeffDred wrote:

djn wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Kina reminds me of...

I actually know someone who looks like that, which is weird. No, it's not me.

 Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

djn wrote:
-snip-

Yeah, I get it. You're mad because, when you put up a thread positing an opinion, people disagreed with you and gave perfectly logical reasons.
Clearly, if you think this codex is bad, you ARE playing the wrong army. Your playing experience doesn't matter to me, nor does the length of time you've been playing Eldar. There are plenty of people who have demonstrated that your concerns are unfounded, and that, good sir, is that. Just because the army didn't get disproportionate Wardian updates doesn't mean they aren't competitive, you've clearly just not spent enough time examining the codex for the right builds and unit combos.

That's right I'm fuming! Or in reality I'm also making counterpoints which you gloss over with the equivalent of 'my friend said its true so there'. I'm enjoying the dialogue to be honest when something meaningful and substantial is being posted.

My experience and time playing the Eldar was raised for the specific point that you made that I may be playing the wrong army. I think I'm probably more qualified to know which armies are right or wrong for me to play!

Tell me, then, in the twenty years or so of you playing Eldar, is this the first time you've ever looked at your codex and said to yourself "blimey! My army is toughness 3!"
I ask because, insofar as I can see, your point is that your army isn't "durable" enough. Well, fine, maybe there's a point in that. After all, we all know Eldar glass-cannon capabilities and such, and we know that randomisation of psychic powers has hamstrung the psychic support of Eldar - as it has every other army, but whatever. However, when put to an examination, it seems hard to substantiate the claim that Eldar aren't competitive in any way. Wave Serpents are hard to put down and thus are very effective transports, War Walkers, while flimsy - as they have always been - are still very capable fire support platforms, Banshees.... are sadly as they ever have been, and generally speaking any unit's weaknesses can be offset with the right choice of supporting units, who in turn are covered (in terms of weaknesses) by the unit they're supporting.

Now, let's talk about that twenty-year thing. So you've been in the hobby a long time; good for you, I applaud your dedication. It's rare to see people with that kind of pedigree.
However, do not presume to come on here and wave that around like it makes your opinions that much more valid. The game changes constantly, with every new edition of the main rulebook and every new codex shifting the balance of power. In such a fluid game, being a longtime player has a surprisingly small effect, and frankly, while it may not have been your intent, it came across as elitist and arrogant to try and use it as "proof" that you can judge a codex's worth a mere 24 hours after it's release, a case of "well, I wuz doin' this afore you were even born, youngin!"
Naturally, that wasn't going to sit well.

So, then, now that we've both said how we feel, shall we actually discuss the topic, or shall we carry on with the verbal fistfight?
I leave it up to you.
.

Were going to have to agree to disagree on a lot of this. It certainly wasn't my intention to be arrogant or wave my time in the hobby about as a badge of honour. More to illustrate I am invested in and familiar with the army. There are no doubt people much more qualified (longer serving too) and able to make an assessment of the codex, hence starting a discussion with my initial feelings about the release to see if I could be persuaded otherwise. As you say lets leave it there.

djn wrote:


Were going to have to agree to disagree on a lot of this. It certainly wasn't my intention to be arrogant or wave my time in the hobby about as a badge of honour. More to illustrate I am invested in and familiar with the army. There are no doubt people much more qualified (longer serving too) and able to make an assessment of the codex, hence starting a discussion with my initial feelings about the release to see if I could be persuaded otherwise. As you say lets leave it there.

Can't say fairer than that. -internet handshake-

Ok, so I've looked through the new codex and I really don't see what there is to complain about.
The whole random psychic powers should not have bee a surprise to anyone. I know there are a lot of people who rely on fortune like it's the freakin bible, but really look at the the damage eldar can dish out now!

Look, there is a unit to suit every need in this codex just like the eldar should be. You want durability? Use wraith units. You want anti vehicle? The fire prism has a nice little S9 lance now. Or maybe a BS 4 falcon would suit you better. You want something that can soak up fire? The wraith knight is toughness 8 with six wounds! Sure it can't pump out shots but it makes an amazing distraction that is bound to draw a majority of your opponents fire. You see, eldar might be a little random when it comes to psychic powers and they might also have quite a bit of T3, but the fact is that there are plenty of clever ways to deal with these weaknesses.

I don't think it's as clear cut as saying it's good or bad. I think that a number of Eldar players, myself included, had ideas about how to revise the Eldar codex for 6th edition. As it turns out, GW did things their own way, and it's too soon to say for sure whether the changes they made are good or bad.

I think the Battle Focus rule is a good one, and properly catches the flavor of older Eldar codices, where Eldar were distinguished partially by having Fleet of Foot and being able to run when no one else could. Battle Focus gives a nice boost to the effective range of Eldar weaponry and offensive output. (Why don't Harlequins get it, though?)

A lot of the Warlock abilites are really nice, and I think there'd be a lot less gnashing of teeth if GW clarifies that you can determine what your Warlock psyker abilities are BEFORE you assign them to Squads. It makes much more sense to have Quicken on a Storm Squad rather than a Vaul's Wrath Battery.

There are also some units which REALLY needed some tweaks and didn't get the love they deserved. The Banshee fluff is that their masks paralyze the opposition, guaranteeing them first strike in combat. But with the mask nerf, and no plasma grenades, there are actually situations where the Banshees could strike second. There are changes that could have made them more effective, and I think the Acrobatic ability DOES help, but you could make the argument that they got worse, and they already weren't used much in the overwatch-heavy 6th Ed.

I think there are lots of reasons in this codex to be upset that the fluff has been disregarded, or not implemented as well as it could have been. But there's also a lot of good items in the codex, both fluff-wise and in game terms, and I'm glad that the army has been revitalized somewhat.

I think the idea of 6th edition is to rebalance the armies some, giving them all both strengths and weaknesses. I think the latest codices, from Chaos to Eldar, have been pretty well in line with each other. It's not strictly a rock-paper-scissors system, but there are unequivocally some armies which will struggle with some specific other armies. This preserves a certain balance without requiring every army to be exactly identical in effect. I think this is a reasonable goal IF they stick with it, but I'm very aware that they did the exact same thing with the 4th Ed Dark Angel and Eldar codices before abandoning that and boosting the power levels for every other codex to come.

Eldar will always be heavily mobile and specialized, but also expensive and fragile. The new codex does feel like Eldar to me, in all of those ways. We also are getting some nice nods to previous codices, like infiltrating, stealthed Scorpions and the Wave Serpent shield.

It just feels like they missed some golden opportunities. Would Banshees have been unbalanced with grenades, or an ability that allowed them to charge without suffering from overwatch? Why not distinguish the craftworlds with some FOC shenanigans?

It's not BAD, strictly speaking, what GW did come up with, but I can certainly understand what the OP means by disappointing.

Had some time today to read the eldar dex. Some stuff is nice and it is possible to build an semi ok army with it. What I dont understand is the forcing of weave serpents on people . bikers are nice in a void , but without a +2sv they will always be sub par in an edition where helldrakes are played . the battle trance ability is very nice , when it works . when it doesnt you the unit that fails the roll is almost as bad as melee unit that fails a charge roll.
In a counter to what other people say , I think the 4 las eldar flyer is very good . Sure it costs no vendetta , but 4 lance for less then 200pts is still ok and if quad guns are a problem , just place a large LoS blocking building in front of it durning deployment in friendly games and bring necrons for tournaments.

Am very interested how the second codex works , if eldar and second eldar can battle brother , there maybe utilities we dont know about . At first glance a spirit seer from a normal dex is a bad HQ , but if I can ally 1-5 from the second eldar dex , he could be ok .

It is a bit sad that guardians suck , but I understand that with the new models and a 2 new codex GW wants to sell other models.

I think the random psy rolls for Eldar while maybe not popular to some is maybe they are going for a more story driven theme with rules. It also tones down psy powers which from what i have experienced can be fairly game changing in their own rights and making it random makes other units more viable in some games etc (I am talking all armies not just Eldar here). From what i saw Fritz on youtube discussing about Eldar i think they sound pretty well off with jetbike armies and even the wave serpent/tanks being more survivable... i cant wait to get a codex and see for myself... still waiting til i get some funds... sigh...

Eldar, I love them! They were my first army two years ago and I still play them to this day I also played my first games on Saturday when the Codex first came out and let me tell you It is amazing. Dire Avengers have become even awesomer with the new BladeStorm rule WraithBlades with an 4++ are amazing they drew away my friends gun fire they became the DISTRACTION CARNIFEX to the Eldar a squad of 10 of them WILL kill almost anything in CQC. My WraithKnight (Princton) dropped awesome Pie plates that killed Tau. Eldrich Storm is just PHEW amazing. Now see what I am doing here? I am looking at the awesome things in the DEX yes I admit it is not flawless like Banshees but meh no Codex is perfect. Right? I mean this one comes into a close second when my friend wants to jump over the table and shove the terrain down my neck

 Kain wrote:
Also, do the Shining Spears and Warp Spiders finally have a phoenix lord?

And has Maugan-Ra solo'd another hive fleet/chaos host/waaagh/tomb world/imperial crusade yet?

Seriously, how do you solo a hive fleet!?!

Where do you keep the ammo?!

In your brain. Mind-bullets. Bullets from your MIND.

Overall I think the book is nice, and I'm, actually exited about Eldar first time sine second edition.

However, about random psychic powers. Yes, everyone has them, and I'm OK with that, but there is on crucial difference with the Eldar that bugs me. Psykers in other armies are pretty much always independent characters* so you can assign them into squads after rolling the powers. For some reason they decided that Warlocks have to roll their powers when they're already assigned to their squads, and that's bloody annoying. I just wish that Warlocks would have similar flexibility to join squad that best suits their abilities like psykers of the other armies have.

(*Unless they're MCs that can't join squads to begin with, or squads of psykers with fixed powers. Yes, I know, Broodlord, but it can rip things with or without powers.)

The biggest disappointment are the Banshees.
I also have a distaste for warlocks being LD8.
Other than that I'm happy.

I only play "fun lists" within a closed group so power builds do not concern me that much.

milo wrote:
I think the Battle Focus rule is a good one, and properly catches the flavor of older Eldar codices, where Eldar were distinguished partially by having Fleet of Foot and being able to run when no one else could. Battle Focus gives a nice boost to the effective range of Eldar weaponry and offensive output. (Why don't Harlequins get it, though?)

That's easy. Battlefocus is clearly meant as a trait of the Craftword Eldar, to represent their sense of duty/dedication to the protection of the race. Harlequins flit about the webway doing whatever, and owe no particular allegiance to either of the Eldar kin. As such, they don't have the same level focus that the Craftword Eldar have when it comes to battle, and thus don't have the Battlefocus rule.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

milo wrote:
I think the Battle Focus rule is a good one, and properly catches the flavor of older Eldar codices, where Eldar were distinguished partially by having Fleet of Foot and being able to run when no one else could. Battle Focus gives a nice boost to the effective range of Eldar weaponry and offensive output. (Why don't Harlequins get it, though?)

That's easy. Battlefocus is clearly meant as a trait of the Craftword Eldar, to represent their sense of duty/dedication to the protection of the race. Harlequins flit about the webway doing whatever, and owe no particular allegiance to either of the Eldar kin. As such, they don't have the same level focus that the Craftword Eldar have when it comes to battle, and thus don't have the Battlefocus rule.

Granted, if you are in shurikan pistol range, I don't think battlefocus would come into play as you'd want to charge. Maybe for the Deathreaper, but nobody takes those in a Harlequin squad.

 Crimson wrote:
Overall I think the book is nice, and I'm, actually exited about Eldar first time sine second edition.

However, about random psychic powers. Yes, everyone has them, and I'm OK with that, but there is on crucial difference with the Eldar that bugs me. Psykers in other armies are pretty much always independent characters* so you can assign them into squads after rolling the powers. For some reason they decided that Warlocks have to roll their powers when they're already assigned to their squads, and that's bloody annoying. I just wish that Warlocks would have similar flexibility to join squad that best suits their abilities like psykers of the other armies have.

(*Unless they're MCs that can't join squads to begin with, or squads of psykers with fixed powers. Yes, I know, Broodlord, but it can rip things with or without powers.)

That's still saying 'Eldar should be different because they're Eldar'.

All psykers roll for powers before the game starts but after list creation. It's just how psykers work now. A Warlock can roll a power that doesn't suit his squad just the same as I can roll Iron Arm and Warp Speed on my Zoanthrope. Bad powers can and will happen, for anyone.

I think the Codex is great and am actually going to start them. I think.

The new Codex is really impressive and I'm pleased with the changes. On the subject of disappointments though:

Harlequins:
They simply don't match up in terms to fluff. They're meant to be what Grey Knights are to Space Marines, yet their statlines and equipment are marginally better, if not worse, than standard Eldar equipment.

Banshees:
I'm actually fine with the masks, but the lack of proper transport options is troubling. Seems viable in certain situations, but definitely not a TAC list.

War Walkers / Wraith Blades:
Not competitive with other choices in the same slot for what they bring, save for tailored situations.

Yriel.

Wraithknight I'm up and down about.
The laser and sun or wraith combo seems pretty good,
but you can't make a unit with that physical gravitas and fluff but still treat it the same as every other unit in the codex (Fulfilling a single, specific purpose well but being otherwise lackluster or mundane).

You have a model and storyline that elicits awe and power - but whose statline is marginally better than its much smaller, more common cousins, and whose ability to cause damage or sustain damage is economically inefficient for the point cost to those same alternatives.

Personally I don't like the Wraithknight. It makes me want to pump my fist and watch my opponent cower, but nothing about its presence in-game does that. It doesn't fit the army, it doesn't fit its story, and it doesn't fit in its own damn shoes.

I am however excited for the supplemental Craftworld Codexes and think by and large this Codex was a huge boost, renewing my interest in the army.

 xttz wrote:

djn wrote:
I hoped a 2+ fortuned bike council with attached Tau super commander would be viable but if you don't roll up some key powers its likely to be game over before its even begun.

The main complaint here seems to be that you can't find a guarunteed I-Win unit after a day of reading the codex. A bloo bloo bloooo.

Virtually everything in the codex either got cheaper, got buffed, or more likely, both. Here's a quick comparison of the Fast Attack page between the last 2 Eldar codexes:

Shining Spears cheaper by 10pts each
Warp Spiders cheaper by 3pts each, plus huge buffs to mobility and firepower
Swooping Hawks cheaper by 5pts each, plus mobility and firepower boosts
Vypers are the same base price, but with BS4 and cheaper weapon upgrades (some of which are also buffed)

That's just one page. You don't have to look very far for more. Unless of course you were hoping for Avatars at 5pts each that could be taken as Troops choices and automatically grant an invulnerable save to everything within 48". Then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

Yeah that didnt happen which is why I quit 40k. Maybe ill be back for 10th edition. Screw it man. Im outtie. lol

 xttz wrote:

But thanks for this gem! I'll save it for when I want to be condescending to someone without needing to backup my points!

 Mahtamori wrote:
You are wrong and I won't tell you how

Very well, since you didn't bother fact checking your earlier statement now, either, I'll tell you exactly how your argument was wrong and why you shouldn't insult people when standing on shaky grounds.

You claimed that Fire Dragons went up only 2 points when in fact the correct number is 6 points.

And yes, my argument is that a unit that is good at solving a specific problem that isn't common and poor at solving most other problems shouldn't pay a premium for it. But this is not the reason why you were wrong since that is an argument which can be met with debate, you were wrong because you made a rather huge factual error and based an insult on that error.

On the topic of my gripe about Harlequins, anyone else wish that their Veil of Tears ability should be replaced with something better and the ability a part of their Holo-suits?

If someone is a shimmering kaleidoscope of colors, it should be pretty damn hard to hit them from range.

Additionally, I wish it was boosted (ala a certain female Dark Eldar unit) in melee. If all you can see is shimmering colors, it should be damn hard to land a blow.

And their weapons having almost zero AP are a bit ridiculous. How are you the elite caretakers of the Eldar race, at home with any of your brethren, with access all the equipment your race can fathom but you can't even pierce Necron armor.
-Who I would imagine are pretty "up there" in terms of foes.

I have to say I have been very impressed with Eldar as of late. I run a mechanized list with 3 Wave Serpents 3 Fire Prisms and a squad of Guardian Jetbikes, a Warlock and Farseer. The prisms hold nothing fancy - Guardians, Dire Avengers and Wraithguard. I've won 4 out of the 5 games I've played with the new codex; the other was a draw. These weren't close games, either. Most games were called by turn 3. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just saying I've had a very positive experience with the new book.

 evildrspock wrote:
I have to say I have been very impressed with Eldar as of late. I run a mechanized list with 3 Wave Serpents 3 Fire Prisms and a squad of Guardian Jetbikes, a Warlock and Farseer. The prisms hold nothing fancy - Guardians, Dire Avengers and Wraithguard. I've won 4 out of the 5 games I've played with the new codex; the other was a draw. These weren't close games, either. Most games were called by turn 3. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just saying I've had a very positive experience with the new book.

You bumped a thread called Eldar Disappointment.....to tell us you aren't disappointed?

There are only two disappointments to the new codex IMO.

1. Wraithknight has underwhelming weapon options. Nothing to affect fliers or hoards. Two awesome S10 blast templates but I can achieve that with other options so this is a build but not play option.

2. Totally random psychic powers. I would have paid up to 30 points to be able to select a power. 50% chance of getting power needed is just not good.

Other than that, battle focus has restored the mobility that the elder depend on and bladestorm is just a bonus.
Laserlock is nice as it opens up new loadouts. Serpent shield is a nice improvement. Other options are nice also.

No auto include but a lot of viable builds is good in my book.

I used to run a Alaitoc theme in 5th, with lots of Rangers and Pathfinders. I'm worried about the Rangers survivability with only a 4+ the majority of the time. I'm yet to get a game with the new dex in however, and am looking forward to Eldar just having a different feel.

Now that the GW versus Chapterhouse is settled, all those wasted boardroom salaries should be used for product development.
GW should simply get off their high horse and release new armies & FAQ the old.

This way little Billy's toy soldiers can forever be the bees knees.


I aint an authority of any kind, just a gamer who is content play-testing 4 codexs coz roling dice is what we do.
flame on < if you are looking to be on the pinnacle of cutting edge powerhouse builds please go play magic... DGAF > flame off

 zephoid wrote:
Wraithguard are only used in the defense of the craftworld or for missions of great importance. The loss of a eldar is regretable. The loss of a wraith construct is essentially stripping souls from the infinity circuit. I think every codex that i have read has included something to the likes that using wraithguard is essentially tomb robbing. Iyaden uses wraith constructs more often due to the smaller population and out of necessity. Current in-game eldar tactics is throwing them at the enemy as much as possible. Its like making 5 point horde guardians.

Given that the Eldar can see the future, the defense of a Craft-world is often a pre-emptive strike on another world. Therefore, a good offense is the best defense

Eldar Disappointment? Some people I will never understand...


Here is someone I agree with.

I am a little disappointed, but that's due to the models. The rules seem fine.

I was hoping for some improved aspect warrior models and jetbikes. Instead we only got stuff I have no interest in. I've never been into the Wraith portion of the Eldar, so IMO the only model that appeals to me at all is the sniper guy (Illic?). So to me, kind of a wasted release, as it leaves me with no desire to add Allies to my Dark Eldar.
As a guy that paints/models more than plays, its the models that make the release.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
I am a little disappointed, but that's due to the models. The rules seem fine.

I was hoping for some improved aspect warrior models and jetbikes. Instead we only got stuff I have no interest in. I've never been into the Wraith portion of the Eldar, so IMO the only model that appeals to me at all is the sniper guy (Illic?). So to me, kind of a wasted release, as it leaves me with no desire to add Allies to my Dark Eldar.
As a guy that paints/models more than plays, its the models that make the release.

Some of the tau players feel the same way - awesome codex...but where are the new sculpts?

Personally, I speculate that with the rapid release of books, gw will run out of things to sell in about a year or so (other than a random expansion or two) and THEN we will see new models for old kits.

I base this upon the fact they always need new product to keep up a revenue stream - and I suspect the codexes will be done long before we get a new edition....so that leaves, potentially - new models.

Or is could be supplemental / expansion books (a kroot book, an imperial fists book, etc.) in waves with new models. Anyway...we will see, I would be very surprised we don't get new jetbikes and crisis suits and a few other goodies in about a year.

I tried Illic in my first game and was just really sad afterwards. Look Out Sir makes the ability the character has just kinda... limited. AP 2 Distort has potential for coolness but where do you even hide him to make the potential matter?

In my game a Dreadnought simply showed up and flamed my unit and I spent most of the time running. Hell, the Hexrifle for the Dark eldar is a better option, and it can be allied.

So yeah... I like the codex, but illic... Oh man how i want Illic to work... But it seems kinda iffy. I can get a lot MORE distortion with those points from much tougher units.

I think the rules are pretty good, in a vacuum. I feel like there are lots of viable lists that let you play the army in a bunch of different ways. I'm generally pretty satisfied with the codex.

Some of the rules changes are effective, fun to play, and fluffy - Battle Focus is great, and BS4 on everything was a long time coming. But some of the rules feel really off, from a fluff perspective.

I still don't understand 5+ saves on Guardians; I have no idea why the Eldar would do that. I realize that they have to be differentiated from Dire Avengers, but, really, who's idea was it to give semi-civilian forces the guns with the shortest range and the lightest armor, and then also give them a single long-range artillery piece per unit? Sometimes it's pretty obvious why they're a dying race.

Psykers are screwy. I wasn't really hoping they would do something about the randomness, as that complaint applies more or less equally to every other psyker in the game, but it's still annoying. About half of the Runes of Fate powers are terrible. Warlock psychic tests make them a lot less useful, and Warlocks can't trade places if the powers they roll work out better in each other's units. I don't understand why regular Farseers lack a Force Weapon option - one would think that would be a no-brainer after coming up with Death Mission.

Autarchs are a bit off too. They don't really feel like commanders. They get a pretty crappy reserves bonus which is blown out of the water by a power Farseers can get about 50% of the time if they want it. And they can become excellent solo harassers, which is just weird. Shouldn't they work more like Ethereals?

I dont agree on Autarchs. Autarchs are good. Its not like they are uber expensive!

I still don't understand 5+ saves on Guardians; I have no idea why the Eldar would do that. I realize that they have to be differentiated from Dire Avengers, but, really, who's idea was it to give semi-civilian forces the guns with the shortest range and the lightest armor, and then also give them a single long-range artillery piece per unit? Sometimes it's pretty obvious why they're a dying race.

Because

1: The aspects have all the good guns, the civilians are making due with basic weaponry to defend themselves

2: The Eldar don't want them getting close, thus the long range artillery, the basic guns are backup.

3: Tradition, some Worlds believe in the death god theory, while others (Biel-Tan) believe in having huge aspect warrior armies to defend themselves.

I'm not saying Autarchs are bad. I'm saying they feel off. One of the most popular setups right now seems to be giving them a Jetbike, a laser lance, and a Mantle. You're making a super- Shining Spear. That's just weird; if that's what the designers want then you should just be able to take various Exarchs as HQ choices. The Autarch is on the Path of Command, but the only thing he does that has anything to do with that is basically just worse than a 20 point upgrade to an Aegis defense line.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Because

1: The aspects have all the good guns, the civilians are making due with basic weaponry to defend themselves

2: The Eldar don't want them getting close, thus the long range artillery, the basic guns are backup.

3: Tradition, some Worlds believe in the death god theory, while others (Biel-Tan) believe in having huge aspect warrior armies to defend themselves.

Of course you're going to be able to come up with some kind of story to justify any weird rule, but it just doesn't seem consistent. The Eldar are seriously limited in their ability to manufacture 24" guns and carapace armor? They build frickin' wraith constructs from the ground up. They build Titans. Yes, you can just say "the Eldar are terminally stupid as a society and have set things up in incredibly silly ways that lead to them taking lots more casualties than they need to", but there's not much indication that that's the case. They're pretty practical-minded when it comes to using wraith constructs.

Of course you're going to be able to come up with some kind of story to justify any weird rule, but it just doesn't seem consistent. The Eldar are seriously limited in their ability to manufacture 24" guns and carapace armor? They build frickin' wraith constructs from the ground up. They build Titans. Yes, you can just say "the Eldar are terminally stupid as a society and have set things up in incredibly silly ways that lead to them taking lots more casualties than they need to", but there's not much indication that that's the case. They're pretty practical-minded when it comes to using wraith constructs.

Considering Wraith-Constructs are usually Last Resorts (With exception of Iyanden, and that's because it's Near Death in terms of numbers). They are never a front-line unit until the defense of a Craft-world is Necessary or in area's with plenty of death. What with them being soul-empowered and not wanting their souls to be lost outside of the Wraith-gate.

And considering that their 24" inch guns are Shuriken Cannons, considering Dire Avengers get 18" variants.

Also they don't produce things normally, considering they technically "Grow" their weapons from wraithbone due to the Bone-Singers, it's hard to understand exactly how that would work in actuality..

And of course the Eldar find the time to build jetbikes for Guardians. You're telling me that whatever effort goes into making a jetbike couldn't instead equip four or five Guardians with equipment equivalent to a Fire Warrior's? I want to stress that I'm not saying "Guardians should be Fire Warriors" and certainly not "Guardians are a bad Troops choice". I'm saying that the rules don't fit the fluff, even though it seems like the game has the toolbox to do a better job here.

I think you're missing the point about wraith constructs. The point is that a whole lot of work goes into each one, and the Eldar really hate using them. The Eldar are presumably very concerned with minimizing their casualties. Whatever effort they have to expend to grow a wraithguard can't be used to make some pretty large number of Guardians significantly more effective (and less likely to die horribly)?

But like I said, yeah, you can invent stories about how Eldar manufacturing works such that that shuriken weapons and mesh armor can be produced at hundreds of times the rate of anything else. But that's just a weird thing to assume. The Dark Eldar don't seem to have any trouble arming everybody with 24" guns. The Imperial Guard do it fine, and they don't care at all about individual lives. The Tau don't have the relative industrial base of the Imperium, and their Fire Warriors get what you'd think would be pretty ideal toys for Guardians. Craftworld Eldar can't just make Swooping Hawk lasblasters for everyone?

And of course the Eldar find the time to build jetbikes for Guardians. You're telling me that whatever effort goes into making a jetbike couldn't instead equip four or five Guardians with equipment equivalent to a Fire Warrior's

And those jetbikes are still equipped with 12" Shurikens, except for the one who can be equipped with a cannon.

I think you're missing the point about wraith constructs. The point is that a whole lot of work goes into each one, and the Eldar really hate using them. The Eldar are presumably very concerned with minimizing their casualties. Whatever effort they have to expend to grow a wraithguard can't be used to make some pretty large number of Guardians significantly more effective (and less likely to die horribly)?

The same logic could go into Every Other Single Race. Why aren't IG equipped with bolters and carapace armor instead? The thing of the matter is, the Shuriken Catapult is the Basic Weapon of the Eldar, and before it's downgrade in 3rd edition, was able to horribly maim even power armor (It kinda can now, with it's AP2 pesudo rending) The thing of the matter is, is that in the fluff, it's far more effective (Just like how bolters can beat near everything)

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Yeah, for just about every three jetbikes made for Guardians, the Eldar manufacture apparently not only three jetbike chassis but also four shuriken catapults and a shuriken cannon. How does that help your side in this argument?

The IG aren't equipped with bolters and carapace armor because that stuff is expensive, presumably. The Imperium doesn't care about individual lives to nearly the extent the Eldar do, and have much less manufacturing capacity per capita. They're willing to sacrifice a whole bunch of lives in order to have a slightly stronger tank. It doesn't make sense for Eldar to make a similar tradeoff, for really obvious reasons.

And I don't understand saying "shuriken weapons don't match the fluff". Well then the rules don't match the fluff, and in this case they fail to match in a way that makes the game play oddly. I care that Guardians on the tabletop don't feel at all like what they should, given that the Eldar think each life is precious. Don't write fluff about a single Guardian shredding a squad of Space Marines with a shuriken catapult and the problem you bring up is solved, right?

IG also get a fighting chance since their lasguns are 24".

Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't any Eldar buildings in the new codex?

It seems like G-dubs missed a golden opportunity to sell "Webway Portals" or an Eldar equivalent of an Aegis line.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't any Eldar buildings in the new codex?

It seems like G-dubs missed a golden opportunity to sell "Webway Portals" or an Eldar equivalent of an Aegis line.

Not really. Were there buildings in the other 6th ed dexes?

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't any Eldar buildings in the new codex?

It seems like G-dubs missed a golden opportunity to sell "Webway Portals" or an Eldar equivalent of an Aegis line.

Nobody got buildings in any other codex.

DAaddict wrote:
There are only two disappointments to the new codex IMO.

1. Wraithknight has underwhelming weapon options. Nothing to affect fliers or hoards. Two awesome S10 blast templates but I can achieve that with other options so this is a build but not play option.

2. Totally random psychic powers. I would have paid up to 30 points to be able to select a power. 50% chance of getting power needed is just not good.

Other than that, battle focus has restored the mobility that the elder depend on and bladestorm is just a bonus.
Laserlock is nice as it opens up new loadouts. Serpent shield is a nice improvement. Other options are nice also.

No auto include but a lot of viable builds is good in my book.

Regarding the WK, how do you not consider 3 S6 AP2 blasts and 4 S6 AP- shots anti-horde? Against most horde armies, you could potentially wipe out half a max-sized squad in one round of firing. Do you honestly expect any unit to completely wipe a max horde unit in one turn?

As for random powers, yeah, you and everybody else with a 6th edition book would absolutely pay an extra 30 points to pick and choose your powers. Hell, that is a freakin' bargain!

I disagree with the auto-includes for this book. Warpspiders=auto-include. Wave Serpents=auto-include. Jetbikes=auto-include. Farseers=auto-include. Many would also consider Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions, Wraithguard, Warwalkers, and Fire Prisms as auto-includes as well.

davethepak wrote:
Personally, I speculate that with the rapid release of books, gw will run out of things to sell in about a year or so (other than a random expansion or two) and THEN we will see new models for old kits.

I base this upon the fact they always need new product to keep up a revenue stream - and I suspect the codexes will be done long before we get a new edition....so that leaves, potentially - new models.

Or is could be supplemental / expansion books (a kroot book, an imperial fists book, etc.) in waves with new models. Anyway...we will see, I would be very surprised we don't get new jetbikes and crisis suits and a few other goodies in about a year.

I got this impression when I saw the release pace at the start of 6th, well before Iyanden. Though I wouldn't say within a year - I'd say we'll have a good year and a half to two years after the last codex drops to the end of 6th edition, which is plenty of time to fill with supplements. And I'd be shocked if that isn't where we see the lions share of resculpts and completely new units that don't fit the giant walker/flyer trend. Plastic Aspect Warriors? Biel Tan supplement. New jetbikes? Saim Hann supplement. New Chaos cult troops and cult terminators? Legions supplement. New Space Marine bikes and attack bikes? White Scars supplement.

The only reason Iyanden hit now was because the majority of the Eldar initial release was related to Iyanden. There was literally never going to be a better time to release that supplement, because they blew Iyandens load with the codex release. If they had plastic Aspects ready and released them alongside the Eldar codex, we'd be seeing a Beil Tan supplement instead.

I am a new player and I have built an Eldar army.

They are a fun, mobile army to play.

There are three small changes I would like to see made:

I would have liked to see the Falcon as an Assault vehicle. It would give Scorpions, Banshees, Harlequins, and some other non-bulky units a lot more list options.

I would like to see the Firestorm come into the Codex and be priced in line with Night Spinners, Prisms, and Falcons.

The Crimson Hunter/Wraithfighter should have Shrouded, a 5+ invulnerable save, or should have its Jink save without losing its BS.

Daner0023 wrote:
I would have liked to see the Falcon as an Assault vehicle. It would give Scorpions, Banshees, Harlequins, and some other non-bulky units a lot more list options.

Banshees and Scorpions don't need a transport to get them into combat. Banshees are definitely fast enough on foot, and Scorpions are tougher than normal Eldar with Infiltrate and Move through Cover. They're fine.

Daner0023 wrote:
I would like to see the Firestorm come into the Codex and be priced in line with Night Spinners, Prisms, and Falcons.

GW don't do that anymore. They did with a few units, like the Trygon, but they've stated they won't cannibalise FW for units anymore, and GW won't put FW made resin kits in codices. You'll just have to buy the Imperial Armour book with the units you want.

Daner0023 wrote:
The Crimson Hunter/Wraithfighter should have Shrouded, a 5+ invulnerable save, or should have its Jink save without losing its BS.

May I ask why? Is this one of those 'they should be better than everyone else BECAUSE ELDAR' things?

Granted I haven't heard people talking about the Eldar flyers, but that's generally a good thing. No whining means people aren't finding them too powerful or too weak, which is good.

Daner0023 wrote:
I am a new player and I have built an Eldar army.

I would have liked to see the Falcon as an Assault vehicle. It would give Scorpions, Banshees, Harlequins, and some other non-bulky units a lot more list options.

.

Tbh, Eldar are already too damn mobile as they are. The ability to Shoot and Run or Run and Shoot has to be one of the best abilities in 40k yet. Their normal troops have the possibility of moving out of cover, shoot and cover again to avoid LOS like a cursed Battle suit. Or just cross the board full speed while being able to shoot.

Seriously, just for that I feel the Eldar Codex is just

 Kain wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't any Eldar buildings in the new codex?

It seems like G-dubs missed a golden opportunity to sell "Webway Portals" or an Eldar equivalent of an Aegis line.

Nobody got buildings in any other codex.

While this is true, it doesn't really make me less disappointed. Those other codecies should have buildings as well. Why does every building have to be imperial? But OK - maybe the buildings don't need rules. What I really want is models. GW is missing out on money! Necron pylons, Eldar web gates, Ork bastions.

Seriously. If GW could produce this
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1250232a
and this
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1250013a
Then there's no reason that they couldn't make good plastic kits for Xenos buiidings. Having rules for the new buildings in the new codecies would just be a marketing ploy to convince people to buy them. How long were the "Imperial Bastion" and "Aegis Defense Line" kits out there before anyone actually bought one?

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed that there aren't any Eldar buildings in the new codex?

It seems like G-dubs missed a golden opportunity to sell "Webway Portals" or an Eldar equivalent of an Aegis line.

Nobody got buildings in any other codex.

While this is true, it doesn't really make me less disappointed. Those other codecies should have buildings as well. Why does every building have to be imperial? But OK - maybe the buildings don't need rules. What I really want is models. GW is missing out on money! Necron pylons, Eldar web gates, Ork bastions.

Seriously. If GW could produce this
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1250232a
and this
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1250013a
Then there's no reason that they couldn't make good plastic kits for Xenos buiidings.

It'll probably come in some separate game supplement that you'll have to buy for fifty quid.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Regarding the WK, how do you not consider 3 S6 AP2 blasts and 4 S6 AP- shots anti-horde? Against most horde armies, you could potentially wipe out half a max-sized squad in one round of firing. Do you honestly expect any unit to completely wipe a max horde unit in one turn?
For 200+ points? No thanks. I can do it a lot cheaper.

As for random powers, yeah, you and everybody else with a 6th edition book would absolutely pay an extra 30 points to pick and choose your powers. Hell, that is a freakin' bargain!
OK make it 50 I don't care. Point is the best psykers in the universe have a 50/50 chance of not benefitting the army.
I disagree with the auto-includes for this book. Warpspiders=auto-include. Wave Serpents=auto-include. Jetbikes=auto-include. Farseers=auto-include. Many would also consider Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions, Wraithguard, Warwalkers, and Fire Prisms as auto-includes as well.
Only one I mis-spoke on was a farseer. Otherwise the point is options, Prism, walkers, reapers are all viable(and a reason why I will never field a Knight). I like scorpions an spiders but I don't have to have them. Bikes or wave serpent mounted troops are both viable but not necessary. WRAITHGUARD are good but also pricey again I can build a viable list without fielding them..