One thing that has always irked me is when people talk about Imperial Guard, they always say that the Imperial Guard is nothing more then a future ww1 unit that does nothing but charge and die and then send in the next wave
In the books, they do use tactics and they do do what many modern day armies do today, of course there are going to be some differences with the doctrine
While this may be true for some specific regiments(anything under Commander Chenkov's command, though the writers that made him up are a bunch of 40 year old men with the mind of a 13 year old writing a LOTR fanfiction)
Casualties may be high, but high causalities does not mean millions of men lost in a single minute; for example, the Elysian Drop Troops lost 2000 men in Kastorel Novem, though that is high, its far from the billions that people keep putting out. Also high casualties does not mean incompetent either
Would you say the high number of army rangers killed on D-Day make them or their commanders incompetent?
Just think about, if the Imperial Guard loses millions of men PER battle, that must mean they brought 10s,100s, if not billions more guardsmen per battle; if that was true, imagine how much of a logistical clusterfeth that would be
Remember that the biggest ship can carry only about 500,000 at most and they aren't exactly the most plentiful either
Also, just because you're in the regular non superhuman military, doesn't mean you're a puny human
just watch this video to see what infantry men have to go through in real life
Cadians have to do that for their entire lives!
You gotta remember that its the Imperial Guard thats doing the majority of the work in the Imperium
Compared to almost every other faction in the universe, which features massive Xeno brutes, massive dudes in power armor tearing tanks apart with their bare hands, Nightmares From Beyond, or Massive Robo-Death Machines...
... they are just puny humans. Yeah, Infantry School is tough... it's nothing compared to being a member of the Adeptus Sororitas or the Adeptus Astartes. Or an Ork. Or a member of a Chaos Warband.
Being a member of the Astartes is going through Infantry School at the age of ten. Being a member of the Sororitas is going through Infantry School at the age of 14 while someone is beating you with a stick.
Your failure in logic is that you're trying to equate 40K to real life. Don't. It doesn't work.
In the fantasy that is the year 40,000 humans are innumerable and expendable en mass. They are based on WW1 with slow infantry, tractor like tanks and inaccurate artillery. If you want an army that's more like today's infantry, the space marines are just that.
The Monolith dwarfs a Land Raider, and a Megalith is bigger than an Imperator Titan. And a single one has destroyed three regiments of Catachans and a force of Imperial Fists. In one battle.
Because boot camp doesn't quite help you when the enemy vomits a womb that regurgitates a twelve foot tall psychic death machine with scythes for arms in your face.
Put the average real world army in say; the battle of Iyanden or the first war of armageddon, and it'd be obliterated in moments clawing it's eyes out screaming in terror before messily dying. Comparing the IG to real world militaries is useless.
Griddlelol wrote: Your failure in logic is that you're trying to equate 40K to real life. Don't. It doesn't work.
In the fantasy that is the year 40,000 humans are innumerable and expendable en mass. They are based on WW1 with slow infantry, tractor like tanks and inaccurate artillery. If you want an army that's more like today's infantry, the space marines are just that.
Real life soldiers dont drop in with only a single squad and engage the enemy with chainswords
Remember that ig regiments hail from the best of the pdf regiments
Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap
I agree that 40k isnt real life, but the ig regiments are based on real life armies
Drakka77 wrote: I was still thinking of IG armor cause the artillery has range to spare and a bane blade or a leman Russ squadron on the battle field are nasty.
And then a Carnifex drops from DEEP SPEHSS and eats your tanks and picks it's adamantium tusks with your bones.
Drakka77 wrote: I was still thinking of IG armor cause the artillery has range to spare and a bane blade or a leman Russ squadron on the battle field are nasty.
And then a Carnifex drops from DEEP SPEHSS and eats your tanks and picks it's adamantium tusks with your bones.
And it dies before it hits the ground thanks to Hydras
The Imperial Guard may be the best of the best (Of standard human infantry anyway) but they are only huma and Games Workshop has gone out it's way to show that being a human in the Warhammer universe is like being a grot amongst Nobz.
Thankfully, they have big guns. They also have the support of a space navy with even bigger guns. There isn't a single thing in the 40k universe that can't be destroyed without the application of enough force (If it has yet to be destroyed despite several tries, that means no one has tried hard enough yet!).
Compared to a lot of the monstrous units on the battlefield, and the enormous size of a standard infantry unit from certain other armies - humans are puny.
The armies have an attitude that can match the toughest, biggest baddies in the galaxy though, that's all that matters ha ha.
PresidentOfAsia wrote: Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap
I agree that 40k isnt real life, but the ig regiments are based on real life armies
Nobody says the IG is incompetent, it's just that every other faction is either a) heckuva lot more technologically advanced, b) bioengineered killing machines, c) supernatural daemonic entities, or a combination of all three. It's hard to look very threatening when you look at the alternatives.
Griddlelol wrote: Your failure in logic is that you're trying to equate 40K to real life. Don't. It doesn't work.
In the fantasy that is the year 40,000 humans are innumerable and expendable en mass. They are based on WW1 with slow infantry, tractor like tanks and inaccurate artillery. If you want an army that's more like today's infantry, the space marines are just that.
Real life soldiers dont drop in with only a single squad and engage the enemy with chainswords
Remember that ig regiments hail from the best of the pdf regiments
Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap
I agree that 40k isnt real life, but the ig regiments are based on real life armies
They are still only human. They may be the "best" but when put up against giant monstrous creatures breed only for war; massive, genetically altered, chaos afflicted, power armor wearing beasts of a man; humanoid fungi that only love to kill and the more you kill them the more appear; etc etc. the humans are just puny. Seriously. They are supposed to be the puny, weak force that relies on numbers and superior firepower to overwhelm the enemy. I don't know where you get the "Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap" from, because that's total BS. Anyone can admit that the IG are a force to be reckoned with because we can pound pretty much any enemy force to death with more artillery guns than they have soldiers.
"Humans aren't the top of the food chain because we are the strongest, because we are the fastest, or because we are the stealthiest. We are the top of the food chain because we are very good at coming up with weapons to kill things easier."
War changes a lot in 38k years, stop trying to make the IG act like modern armies do on the battlefield because they kind of tactics are going to get them slaughtered because they are up against things that are just flat out better than them at it in a 1 on 1 engagement. Fortunately, it's very rarely a 1 on 1 battle with the IG
PresidentOfAsia wrote: Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap
I agree that 40k isnt real life, but the ig regiments are based on real life armies
Nobody says the IG is incompetent, it's just that every other faction is either a) heckuva lot more technologically advanced, b) bioengineered killing machines, c) supernatural daemonic entities, or a combination of all three. It's hard to look very threatening when you look at the alternatives.
PresidentOfAsia wrote: One thing that has always irked me is when people talk about Imperial Guard, they always say that the Imperial Guard is nothing more then a future ww1 unit that does nothing but charge and die and then send in the next wave
In the books, they do use tactics and they do do what many modern day armies do today, of course there are going to be some differences with the doctrine
While this may be true for some specific regiments(anything under Commander Chenkov's command, though the writers that made him up are a bunch of 40 year old men with the mind of a 13 year old writing a LOTR fanfiction)
Casualties may be high, but high causalities does not mean millions of men lost in a single minute; for example, the Elysian Drop Troops lost 2000 men in Kastorel Novem, though that is high, its far from the billions that people keep putting out. Also high casualties does not mean incompetent either
Would you say the high number of army rangers killed on D-Day make them or their commanders incompetent?
Just think about, if the Imperial Guard loses millions of men PER battle, that must mean they brought 10s,100s, if not billions more guardsmen per battle; if that was true, imagine how much of a logistical clusterfeth that would be
Remember that the biggest ship can carry only about 500,000 at most and they aren't exactly the most plentiful either
Also, just because you're in the regular non superhuman military, doesn't mean you're a puny human
just watch this video to see what infantry men have to go through in real life
Cadians have to do that for their entire lives!
You gotta remember that its the Imperial Guard thats doing the majority of the work in the Imperium
Regardless of how much you train, you are still a puny human in a galaxy filled with Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Daemons, and countless other hostile races.
And a ship not being plentiful is only relative. There will still be thousands and thousands of them.
Nobody is equating high casualties with incompetence. High casualties is merely a by product of one Imperial tactic, which is to throw the most plentiful resource the Imperium has(human life) at a problem till it goes away.
Training is all well and good, but the best trained an unaugmented human can get in 40k is WS4 BS4 while still being Str3 and T3. WS4 and BS4 would be something like a Navy SEAL or Green Beret level of training. It still can't compare to alien life, or a human that's been turned into a super human soldier with technology and science bordering on magical.
Hospy wrote: Nobody says the IG is incompetent, it's just that every other faction is either a) heckuva lot more technologically advanced, b) bioengineered killing machines, c) supernatural daemonic entities, or a combination of all three. It's hard to look very threatening when you look at the alternatives
It may be hard for an individual Guardsman to look threatening but that's probably due to it being hard to see them behind their colossal steel balls.
I suppose it comes down to 'humans are boring' when compared to all of the other species/races in 40k, whilst I personally find the opposite to be true. Humans in 40k are fascinating and contribute 95% of my interest in the background. The enormous range of emotions humans have compared to other races/species, what drives them on, that they stand up and fight against species/races/armies that consist of your worst nightmares and they hold the line and prevail, is all of great interest. Yes, yes Space Marines are super-awesome soldiers being super-strong, super-tough etc, etc, but they lack the full set of human emotions (notably fear) and are, well, boring. They can be epic, I'll grant you, but my interest in them waxes and wanes very easily. Xenos have never been my sort of thing and whilst I can get into Chaos, through Slaanesh, it's about the regular humans who turn to Chaos rather than the daemons & Chaos Marines that grab my interest.
In order to make the other races/species sound even more awesome people have applied a stigma to the Guard that they're useless and only get anything done by having lots of soldiers. Whilst this is true to an extent, the number of soldiers thing, our ingenuity & brilliance as a species makes us incredibly dangerous. Do people -really- think that Guard commanders are willing to throw away large parts of their forces by getting them to advance against the enemy willy-nilly, lose the battle or achieve victory at a great cost and then have few forces to fight the next battle? The role of an officer is not just to use their unit(s) as a weapon, but to keep their soldiers alive - a dead soldier kills no-one. The Tactica Imperium, the tome stuffed full of advice & wisdom for officers, says the following;
"Do not throw your forces blindly into battle. Before committing your forces, examine the situation. Review your own strength, and that of your enemy. Remember your own objectives, and try to anticipate those of your opponent. Then select those of your troops best suited to the task in hand. "
Anyway, whilst there'll be people out there who will look down on the Guard with a sneer, there'll be those of us who know who the real defenders of the Imperium are and how capable/competent they are as a fighting force.
I'll just finish off with another excerpt from the Tactica Imperium for those who believe the Guard just throw men into battle willy-nilly;
"Preservation of life for its own sake is not to be commended where sacrifice offers a reasonable chance of gain. None the less, the purposeless waste of life is equally to be avoided. The loss of trained personnel implies the loss of resources, equipment and knowledge. A true warrior does not belittle his value as a resource. The duty of the commander is to judge what means should be undertaken to achieve each objective. He must be aware of what is to be gained and what may be lost. A commander who places his troops in a position where he may likely lose more than he may likely gain risks more than the lives of his men. He risks far more: he risks failure. Loss is acceptable, failure is not. Imperial record COM 07/580.f402.P6
Real life soldiers dont drop in with only a single squad and engage the enemy with chainswords
Nor do they throw wave after wave of people at an enemy. Nor do they have tanks that look like they'd topple over if they shot. Nor do they have aircraft that couldn't take off. They also don't use gun lines or plasma weapons or commissars that kill troops who are too scared to fight.
Remember that ig regiments hail from the best of the pdf regiments
Remember that PDF regiments don't stand a chance against any sort of alien attack. Being the best out of the PDF isn't saying much.
Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap
Don't know where you're getting this from. No one has said imperial guard are incompetent. They win plenty in the fluff and plenty on the table top. You just seem to be highly confused between the fantasy and reality.
I agree that 40k isnt real life, but the ig regiments are based on real life armies
Lol barely. They're based on a mix of ww1 and ww2 archetypes. With a huge amount of fantastical weapons and characters throw in. I suppose they are based on real armies, if by based you mean they're humans and they use guns.
In many instances the fluff just needs a punching bag/whipping boy, and instead of the golden boy Spehse Mahreens it's the Imperial Guard. Whenever another faction needs to look "zomgamazing", they defeat some ridiculous number of completely incompetent idiot guardsmen and high-five themselves because cool factor.
Griddlelol wrote:
Nor do they throw wave after wave of people at an enemy.
Most of the time the IG don't either.
commissars that kill troops who are too scared to fight.
Commissars are generally there to enforce discipline, only in very specific circumstances are they going around executing cowards.
Remember that PDF regiments don't stand a chance against any sort of alien attack. Being the best out of the PDF isn't saying much.
That's actually their entire point, to repel alien attacks, at least until off-world forces can arrive. Many PDF's are massive military garrisons chocked full of advanced weaponry and veteran troops. Not all are weekend warriors with a stick for a weapon.
Yes, the IG is based off of modern day armies, but look at the modern day armies compared to the IG. (I'm going to use the US Army because that's what I know) How often do our troops fight in melee? Despite what CoD would have you believe, CC is used only as a last resort. Present day tanks have a range proportionally greater than a Basilisk. We also go to war with overwhelming airpower. Aircraft are starting to be integrated into 40k and they're having a powerful effect. If the US Army fought with the tactics used by IG during a 40k tabletop battle (ie only line of sight and without close air support) they would do terribly.
I don't see the IG as being weak puny humans. One on one against many other races, they're physically inferior. What they lack in physical strength they make up for in numbers and firepower. The IG is what keeps the Imperium as powerful as it is, not the SM or SoB.
Flanker wrote: Present day tanks have a range proportionally greater than a Basilisk.
Technically speaking, I believe that it's insinuated that the range of a basilisk is roughly equivalent to our modern arty, but it really depends on which source you're using.
Vaktathi wrote: In many instances the fluff just needs a punching bag/whipping boy, and instead of the golden boy Spehse Mahreens it's the Imperial Guard. Whenever another faction needs to look "zomgamazing", they defeat some ridiculous number of completely incompetent idiot guardsmen and high-five themselves because cool factor.
Griddlelol wrote:
Nor do they throw wave after wave of people at an enemy.
Most of the time the IG don't either.
commissars that kill troops who are too scared to fight.
Commissars are generally there to enforce discipline, only in very specific circumstances are they going around executing cowards.
Remember that PDF regiments don't stand a chance against any sort of alien attack. Being the best out of the PDF isn't saying much.
That's actually their entire point, to repel alien attacks, at least until off-world forces can arrive. Many PDF's are massive military garrisons chocked full of advanced weaponry and veteran troops. Not all are weekend warriors with a stick for a weapon.
Yeah, but of course we never hear about the stories where the PDF were successful in throwing back the invasion. Otherwise there would be no story to tell. No, you only ever hear about when the PDF are brutally killed to a man. Or reduced to defending the last Imperial stronghold on the planet for months before the IG and/or Space Marines show up to push the enemy back.
Flanker wrote: Present day tanks have a range proportionally greater than a Basilisk.
Technically speaking, I believe that it's insinuated that the range of a basilisk is roughly equivalent to our modern arty, but it really depends on which source you're using.
You're right, but I'm also saying that an Abrams could move faster and shoot farther more accurately than a LR.
Flanker wrote: Present day tanks have a range proportionally greater than a Basilisk.
Technically speaking, I believe that it's insinuated that the range of a basilisk is roughly equivalent to our modern arty, but it really depends on which source you're using.
In-game ranges and distances shouldn't be used to extrapolate the actual range of the weapons fluff-wise.
In-universe, a Basilisk is a long range indirect artillery piece. A self-propelled howitzer. A long range artillery piece is represented by the absurdly long range it has.
Now, many modern day tanks do have the ability to fire over the horizon. But that is more because of having extra computers and software that can handle that sort of thing, plus a gun that can traverse to the required angles.
That extra equipment is expensive, and when you are making millions of these tanks to go across the galaxy you sometimes need to cut corners. How often are LRBTs going to operate without artillery support while also needing it? Or be required to operate as artillery support for a unit that doesn't have any?
Not very often, and as such its not worth it to toss resources at adding a feature that's only going to come up maybe once every few hundred years. The resources you saved can go into making that many more LRBTs, or artillery pieces, or whatever else you need.
Flanker wrote: Present day tanks have a range proportionally greater than a Basilisk.
Technically speaking, I believe that it's insinuated that the range of a basilisk is roughly equivalent to our modern arty, but it really depends on which source you're using.
You're right, but I'm also saying that an Abrams could move faster and shoot farther more accurately than a LR.
You can't know that for sure. We don't know what in-game stats translate into in the real world.
It could be that the Abram's armor is only equivalent to armor 12. And who knows about the track system.
Accuracy is all well and good, but who knows if a 155mm shell(or SABOT) could harm AV14.
Flanker wrote: Present day tanks have a range proportionally greater than a Basilisk.
Technically speaking, I believe that it's insinuated that the range of a basilisk is roughly equivalent to our modern arty, but it really depends on which source you're using.
You're right, but I'm also saying that an Abrams could move faster and shoot farther more accurately than a LR.
And it'd also run out of fuel faster (the Abrams eats fuel faster than TFG goes through a bag of cheetos), not hit anywhere NEAR as hard, and have less armor as well, and it's one of the most expensive tanks we can put out where the LRBT is very, very cheap.
True that, you all make very good points on the technology, firepower, and mobile range of the Abrams that I didn't consider.
I'd like to rephrase then what I was thinking but not what I wrote down. I wanted to say that IG tabletop tactics are completely different from how the modern armies of today fight. We wouldn't wait until the enemy were that close before engaging them. I realize most battles in 40k tabletop gaming can represent a much smaller portion of a larger battle. People see the IG as weak because they picture the tabletop IG of a few platoon squads versus, say, some squads of big bad Orks. Yes, the Orks will chop through them in CC and lose boyz to enemy fire, but behind the first IG squads would be thousands more guardsmen and tanks. I guess think Soviet Union-style military thinking: quantity over quality. The weight of numbers wins out. I imagine the IG would commit with thousands of aircraft and artillery support that we can't see in our small picture of the current battle.
The Imperial Guard are just mere men and women this is true. and its an inescapable fact as well.
But at thier command are mechanized gods of war and untold numbers of troops, each with a standard issue wheel barrow for there giant balls of steel. Because, These mere human beings, with nothing but a flak jacket ("armor"), and a weapon that is often compared to a mere flashlight. They still fight, some fight out of fear. Others fight because they know perfectly well there going to die. others know that if they don't fight and give everything they have then everything they know will cease to exist.
Tactics in some cases are crude. Others involve tactics that would make a real general proud, flanking maneuvers that guerrilla fights would know well, tactical insertions that the best spec op teams would cringe at doing, armored blitzkriegs that would make Rommel proud and more.
Compared to what the IG fight on a daily basis, they are the most badass guys and gals in the universe, they don't need cowar armor to fight with, they don't need rocket propelled automatic grenade launchers, they don't need biological/chemical/cybernetic enhancments, They just need a T-shirt and a lasgun.
the imperial guard are puny humans no matter how you twist or turn it.
they are just regular humans, nothing special about them most of the time they are men and women just drafted into the guard.
their weapons might be inferior one on one to any other race their equivalent but they are used en masse.
high casualty numbers are to be expected in the imperial guard it doesnt mean they are incompetent nor that they are weak, it just means they are facing vastly superior technology in suffecient enough numbers to kill so many of guards.
the imperial guard are puny humans no matter how you twist or turn it.
they are just regular humans, nothing special about them most of the time they are men and women just drafted into the guard.
their weapons might be inferior one on one to any other race their equivalent but they are used en masse.
high casualty numbers are to be expected in the imperial guard it doesnt mean they are incompetent nor that they are weak, it just means they are facing vastly superior technology in suffecient enough numbers to kill so many of guards.
The thing is that all of those super powerful and scary aliens, daemons and everything are rarely ever faced, you gotta remember that 99% of the time, the Imperial faces planetary rebellions with rebels armed with vastly inferior weapons
And they usually beat those rebellions.
The Imperial Guard are for the most part a professional and well equipped force.
Unfortunately for them they are in the 40k universe so they end up fighting all kinds of crap eventually...
"The enemy thinks they have the gods on their side. Let them think that. We have the tanks on ours."
Humans are rather insignificant individually in the 41st Millenium. As has been said, it's a simple fact. At the same time, they overcome incredible odds through determination, intelligence or plain single-minded bigoted zealotry. If anything, the Imperial Guard are an example of "Ain't humanity grand?" with mere every-day humans fighting alien murderbeasts and achieving victory no matter the cost.
Some regiments are poorly led and equipped, some exist on the cutting edge, and everything in between. There's no archetype for the Imperial Guard save for their own fragile humanity.
Drakka77 wrote: I was still thinking of IG armor cause the artillery has range to spare and a bane blade or a leman Russ squadron on the battle field are nasty.
And then a Carnifex drops from DEEP SPEHSS and eats your tanks and picks it's adamantium tusks with your bones.
And it dies before it hits the ground thanks to Hydras
Hydras don't have interceptor so all they can do is stare at the Carnifex like derps before getting eaten.
Sure they are puny and individually insignificant. Seeing as I only play against IG - don't own any - I will speak about facing them.
If all I had to worry about was IG and even veterans, I would wipe the table each and every time. They are only S3 T3 and I3. A tactical marine is going to kill them as is a fleshgaunt which are pretty low on the totem pole of what I can field.
The problem is all the vendettas, manticores , and LR that they have. Because they can afford to field a lot of infantry AND all the specials, I am going to have a rough time dealing with the puny humans and ignore the other stuff.
The other problem is the numbers mean edge-to-edge IG, no maneuver it is going to be a head-on charge.
Invariably when I play the guard, I slaughter them in number of casualties but it is going to be 50-50 whether I can actually win the scenario. That is the strength of the guard.
I have read the fluff, so I am aware of how switched on the guard are, gak..their training and conditioning will be better than modern puny infantry school by a long shot considering that modern recruits have rights and all that pansy nonsense!
But they ARE puny in the strictest sense. Not stupid and not a pushover in a war because they are well trained and well armed, but certainly puny considering what they go up against.
Unaugmented humans are weak as piss when compared to every other race no matter how many push ups they do!
Well..except Eldar..but they are faster and more graceful. .so they would kick our asses as well.
Many have said it, but it bears repeating: Saying that guardsmen are just puny humans doesn't have to mean they are looked down upon. It's part of their appeal. It means you can sympathise with them, it means their bravery is far more significant when they stand and fight, even though they run away more than any other faction. It means they have to win by other means.
I hate the aesthetics of most IG models. I'm not a fan of horde or mechanised armies. I feel no need to plonk down more than three tanks. And even though I like artillery, I don't exactly need it. And yet the IG is my favorite faction. Because a bunch of guys with Lasguns being send into some god forsaken warzone unimaginably far from home. With no idea where they are and almost no idea why, fighting horrors we can't even imagine facing. That gets. Because it's awesome and horrible.
On the matter of human wave and "we have reserves" tactics. They are just a facet of the IG doctrine, but one of the more over the top and ridiculous ones at that. And like all armies, the background likes to highlight and exaggerate this element. Like Space Marines trolling other factions with over the top displays of heroic badass, like eldar skrewing everyone over with their deceit and trickery, dark eldar being ultimate SM freaks (mostly the S part at that), orks making things work because they believe it should, Tau being naive etc. etc. It's a part of WH40k grimdark and dark humor (a lot of background blunders aren't as bad when you remember that, in it's own way, WH40k has always been quite funny)
Looking deeper though, it's not as clear cut. Yes, the IoM tend to show a blatant disregard for human lives and human rights. And a high lord of Terra, an imperial gouvernor, a beaurocrat of the Adeptus Munitorum or a dogmatic Kommisar will be of the oppinion "If they loose, we'll just sent in another wave. We have reserves ".
This aditude will extend to a fair amount of IG officers and Space Marine leaders, whith some extreme cases like Chenkov and the Death Korps of Krieg. But many high ranks will not think that way. I doubt Creed considers his Cadians fodder. Straken and other Catachen officers (remember, they come from the rank and file) certainly don't. Dante of the Blood Angels and Grimnar of the Space Wolves seem to have a good oppinion of guardsman and value their lives.
There are countless worlds whose military send out regiments to the IG, all with their own tradition, mentality and doctrine. Some just send their criminals, poor and gutter skum offworld to die. Some are made of cavemen taught how to use lasguns lead byoffworlder who consider them little more than animals. Some are religious fanatics eager to sacrifice themself. Others are savvy skirmishers and guerilias, like the Tallarn and Catachans. Some come from proud warrior castes and knightly orders, valueing honor and skill at arms, not senseless sacrifice. Some are taught actual tactics and strategy. Some are sneaky gits, who weasel out of every attempt to use them as fodder. Some just want to go back to their families or make it to retirement, hopefully being granted a small strip of land on a newly freed agriworld. And believe it or not, they might have officers who share those dreams and want to keep as many of their men alive to see it fulfilledas possible.
Kain wrote: Hydras don't have interceptor so all they can do is stare at the Carnifex like derps before getting eaten.
Hydra batteries destroy spore pods before they get to the ground. The rules may not represent this, but that's a failure of the rules, not of the lore.
I don't think many people really do think this. The Guard have got some good fluff, especially from BL.
It feels to me like the whole "raaargh grimdark bury them under mountains of dead Guardsmen" thing doesn't have much to back it up. Even the Codex pays lip service to this, when even a casual scan of it or the IGs fluff shows they're one of the most versatile and heavily armed forces in the 40K galaxy, if not the most. They'd probably lose more than win if every commander was as bad as Chenkov.
Kain wrote: Hydras don't have interceptor so all they can do is stare at the Carnifex like derps before getting eaten.
Hydra batteries destroy spore pods before they get to the ground. The rules may not represent this, but that's a failure of the rules, not of the lore.
Kain wrote: Hydras don't have interceptor so all they can do is stare at the Carnifex like derps before getting eaten.
Hydra batteries destroy spore pods before they get to the ground. The rules may not represent this, but that's a failure of the rules, not of the lore.
Then you drop more Spores than they have shells!
That's the only way that TYranids can win, not thorugh quality of troop[s, but quantity.
Kain wrote: Hydras don't have interceptor so all they can do is stare at the Carnifex like derps before getting eaten.
Hydra batteries destroy spore pods before they get to the ground. The rules may not represent this, but that's a failure of the rules, not of the lore.
Then you drop more Spores than they have shells!
That's the only way that TYranids can win, not thorugh quality of troop[s, but quantity.
And frequently, they simply don't have enough.
A single Trygon broke the back of Chaos at Forgefane. The Iron Warriors warsmith wasn't expecting for the Tremorbeast to open up a hole in his defenses and eat him, destroying the entire grand company in a few hours.
And the Doom of Malan'tai and Swarmlord would like to have a word with you.
Kain wrote: A single Trygon broke the back of Chaos at Forgefane.
You realize of course that I will take this as proof of the inferiority of the servants of Chaos, rather than proof of the Tyranids being strong ,right?
It should be noted that the Iron Warriors held off the Tyranids for quite some time, felling Bio-Titans, Harridans, Gargoyles and gods know how many lesser Tyranid creatures before the Tervigons (yes, plural) tunneled their way under the defense line, and appeared in multiple places to sever supply lines and isolate teams of defenders. The Tervigons themselves did not win the battle, not without the help of the hordes of Gaunts coming in behind them, and the presence of multiple Tervigons that allowed the Hive to attack isolated pockets of the IW en masse.
Kain wrote: A single Trygon broke the back of Chaos at Forgefane.
You realize of course that I will take this as proof of the inferiority of the servants of Chaos, rather than proof of the Tyranids being strong ,right?
^lol
In the Tyranids codex it has plenty of stories saying they invade planets with vast numbers of spore pods. That is just how most nids get to the surface.
Then the northern laser fell silent. Thousands of gargoyles had mindlessly thrown themselves into its throat, clogging the massive beam projector...
Remember that IG are the *only* human faction in the game (except for possibly Sisters, I'm not that familiar with them) - Space Marines are no longer truly Human.
Being weaker than a Space marine is like crying because your 20-year-old brother could beat you up when you were 5. It may be true, but it doesn't make you a wimp.
IG are well trained. Remember that, even Eldar Guardians - one of the closest to them statwise - have the advantage of each one probably having trained or fought (yes, even the Guardians) longer than any given IG member has been alive.
Humans aren't that puny when they fight other humans. Break out Biomutants, overly violent Space Fungus that never truly dies, Sadistic Space Elves, Giant, all-consuming Insects, and the creepy creatures of the warp, Humans kinda start looking pretty bad in comparison.
I'm not sure any amount of training is enough for that, but the Guard somehow do it.
whoever said that the failure is trying to compare reality to 40k is right. that being said the coolness of guard is that they are puny humans. the guard is just guys with wimpy lasguns fighting space monsters and sometimes they win. there is something epic and poetic about a normal-ass human facing down a tide of crazy angry Orks or evil fearless space robots. one on one a guardsmen is going to get crushed by almost every other basic troop in the game but if your butt-hurt that your five point guardsmen didnt punch out that eight foot tall 800 pound super space warrior then youre doing it wrong. I send waves (blobs) of guards men at other units knowing my troopers have one good fight in them until they are combat ineffective, thats just how it is and I like it that way.
One guardsman is puny. One hundred thousand of them is not. The vast majority of those puny guardsman do receive at least some military training anyways (and some of them have been militarily training since birth, like Catachans or Cadians). The Imperium has survived for ten-thousand years despite all the crap the galaxy throws at it, which is like, a thousand times longer than most empires and governments today have lived. So its main army must be doing something right.
Many IG regiments are trained while in warp transit to the warzone they will be deployed in. This is in addition to whatever training they receive on their home world.
When you factor that it, most IG have a longer training period than our modern military does. Excluding special forces.
TiamatRoar wrote: One guardsman is puny. One hundred thousand of them is not. The vast majority of those puny guardsman do receive at least some military training anyways (and some of them have been militarily training since birth, like Catachans or Cadians). The Imperium has survived for ten-thousand years despite all the crap the galaxy throws at it, which is like, a thousand times longer than most empires and governments today have lived. So its main army must be doing something right.
The thing is that they're not always deployed 100,000 at a time; the typical regiment has about 2000-3000 men, and not all of them are combatants(support crews, crew chiefs, etc)
Though it is true that many guardsmen do go up against the worst horrors in the galaxy like the Chaos Space Marines, it should also be noted that such is a very rare occurrence
imagine this: meeting space marines is a very rare occurrence, now lets look at chaos space marines which have even lesser numbers
Really, majority of conflicts the IG gets into is no more worse then being stationed in Afghanistan or Somalia
"“The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them.”
- Maor the Scarred, Siege-Champion of the Scargivers
Well the IG really are the best in the galaxy because they are the only group in the game that has a chance at a reasonable sex life.
Space Marines: It is not even known if their man parts even work after they mutate from human to space marine. Maybe they dont even have weenies anymore, GW wont say.
Sisters of Battle: Seriously repress their urges and sublimate sexual desire into worshipping the emperor
Chaos Space Marines: Same as marines except for slaaneshi types which must be hermaphrodites
Eldar: Too much sex led to their whole civilization blowing up.
Dark Eldar: Bunch of demented perverts.
Orks: Asexual fungus, complete fail there.
Tyranids: They are animals so who cares.
Necrons: Gave up sex 60 million years ago.
So then, puny they may be, they are the only faction that can score on a Saturday night!
Well the IG really are the best in the galaxy because they are the only group in the game that has a chance at a reasonable sex life. ... Dark Eldar: Bunch of demented perverts. ... So then, puny they may be, they [humans] are the only faction that can score on a Saturday night!
The Orks have something to say about it. Taken from the Tyranid codex, an Ork boss commenting on war with a real foe (Tyranids) and not some busted IG army he describes as exactly what the thread alleges:
"Dis ain't no stinkin' scrap where da puny gits run an' hide behind walls when da killin' starts. 'Dis is proper fightin'."
It is perhaps also worth noting that when the Tomb World on Ka'Mais' moon woke up, the invading Tyranid fleet which was massacring the Tau was destroyed in a hours.
Void__Dragon wrote: It is perhaps also worth noting that when the Tomb World on Ka'Mais' moon woke up, the invading Tyranid fleet which was massacring the Tau was destroyed in a hours.
An outnumbered splinter fleet of an already small hive fleet.
So lone Lictor crippling Ecclesiarchy world = Awesome
But a Phoenix Lord, among the mightiest individuals in the galaxy, defending a single world from Tyranids = Bad?
And is it now? Care to prove that statement? Because the Orks have proven to be a far longer-lasting foe, a single Necron Dynasty conquered a hundred or so Imperial worlds in a matter of months, and Abaddon is having far more troops sent to defend Cadia from him than any Hive Fleet ever has.
Also, that video is of a world already heavily infested by the Tyranids. Maugan Ra never let it get to that point, obviously.
But a Phoenix Lord, among the mightiest individuals in the galaxy, defending a single world from Tyranids = Bad?
And is it now? Care to prove that statement? Because the Orks have proven to be a far longer-lasting foe, a single Necron Dynasty conquered a hundred or so Imperial worlds in a matter of months, and Abaddon is having far more troops sent to defend Cadia from him than any Hive Fleet ever has.
Also, that video is of a world already heavily infested by the Tyranids. Maugan Ra never let it get to that point, obviously.
The Tyranids are a billions year old species who have crushed multiple galaxies. Ra's what? Ten thousand years old? Ones more reasonable than the other.
As for proof. Check the map of Hive Fleet leviathan's assault and see how the tendrils of a single fleet are rampaging through the Imperium, with death and defeat spread liberally across the entire galaxy.
And Abaddon's fleet got smashed at Cadia. He's not going anywhere anytime soon. Meanwhile Leviathan is described as a desparate threat to the Imperium, Tau, and Eldar simultaneously. Furthermore, the Imperium does not believe it can survive the entire Tyranid race without essentially destroying itself through over militarization.
Call me when Abaddon gets a strategic conclave informing the high lords of terra that to stop him they'd need to halt their entire economy to draft everyone into the army.
The Tyranids are a billions year old species who have crushed multiple galaxies. Ra's what? Ten thousand years old? Ones more reasonable than the other.
So what you are saying is that Tyranids just should be far more awesome than everyone else because they are awesome?
As for proof. Check the map of Hive Fleet leviathan's assault and see how the tendrils of a single fleet are rampaging through the Imperium, with death and defeat spread liberally across the entire galaxy.
Yet they are always routed by the Necrons, in every battle.
And Abaddon's fleet got smashed at Cadia. He's not going anywhere anytime soon. Meanwhile Leviathan is described as a desparate threat to the Imperium, Tau, and Eldar simultaneously. Furthermore, the Imperium does not believe it can survive the entire Tyranid race without essentially destroying itself through over militarization.
Yes yes, I know what the Tyranid codex says, just like I know how the core rulebook explicitly states that the Emperor's death will mean Chaos floods the galaxy, and that the Emperor is dying.
Call me when Abaddon gets a strategic conclave informing the high lords of terra that to stop him they'd need to halt their entire economy to draft everyone into the army.
The Imperium sent more troops to a single world to fight Abaddon than it has sent to battle Leviathan in its entirety.
I'd be hypocrtical if I denied it but yes, I do think the Tyranids should be painted as the greatest threat as that makes the most sense. They've already destroyed dozens of other galaxies, they're older than every other faction combined, and they cannot be reasoned or bargained with to even the smallest degree. Everyone else wants to enslave or conquer the galaxy, the Tyranids are the only one who want to destroy it, and traditionally, the conqueror and the hero unites to fight the destroyer.
You can't prove they are the oldest race though, though they should only have competition from the Necrons (The C'tan, before the retcon, were also far older).
It is frankly hypocritical IMO for you to sing praise toward sole Lictors devastating a world, but bashing Maugan Ra, who is far, far, far more formidable personally than Deathleaper is for doing the same to Tyranids.
Void__Dragon wrote: You can't prove they are the oldest race though, though they should only have competition from the Necrons (The C'tan, before the retcon, were also far older).
It is frankly hypocritical IMO for you to sing praise toward sole Lictors devastating a world, but bashing Maugan Ra, who is far, far, far more formidable personally than Deathleaper is for doing the same to Tyranids.
Didn't the retcon definitively set the Necrons at sixty million years instead of maybe billions ("near the start of the galaxy's formation" would put them at around ten billion or so)?
Now let's consider the differences, the Lictor recognized that the Cardinal was the lynchpin of the morale for the Ecclesiarchy world and it's sisters of battle and PDF. So if it broke him, it broke the planet's defense. It kept on killing his friends and advisors until by the time the world was descended upon by the fleet he was left a stark raving lunatic who couldn't coordinate a marching band, much less an army.
Maugan Ra apparently just gunned down and chopped up a tendril that the blood ravens and ultramarines had to devote a super cunning and irrepeatable (the 5e Tyranid codex says the trick that Ventris and Force Commander Hairgel pulled no longer works) plan to stopping.
PresidentOfAsia wrote: The thing is that they're not always deployed 100,000 at a time; the typical regiment has about 2000-3000 men, and not all of them are combatants(support crews, crew chiefs, etc)
Though it is true that many guardsmen do go up against the worst horrors in the galaxy like the Chaos Space Marines, it should also be noted that such is a very rare occurrence
imagine this: meeting space marines is a very rare occurrence, now lets look at chaos space marines which have even lesser numbers
Really, majority of conflicts the IG gets into is no more worse then being stationed in Afghanistan or Somalia
Not true, I'm afraid. We have evidence of regiments ranging from a few thousand to several hundred thousand Guardsmen (up to 750,000 in the Abnettverse). The Siege Regiments of the Death Korps are noted for their enormous size because of the amount of manpower Krieg is able to produce thanks to the Vitae Womb (no, it's not cloning before anyone jumps on that AGAIN) and the way the Siege Regiments, as well as the Death Korps infantry regiments, prefer to wage war, through attrition - wearing down opponents numbers until there is nothing left to oppose the Krieg units. The Guard is noted as having regiments losing thousands of men each day in large scale conflicts, as in across an entire world.
Numbers are heavily inflated across 40k to give a greater sense of scale and what has more of an impact, an army of 2 million Guardsmen facing off against a horde of Tyranids that block out the horizon with their numbers or 3,000 Guardsmen facing a few thousand Tyranids?
I agree that the majority of conflicts the Guard face tend to involve separatists, renegades & so on, whilst the actual conflicts against Xenos (besides Orks) tend to be very rare.
Kain wrote:Now let's consider the differences, the Lictor recognized that the Cardinal was the lynchpin of the morale for the Ecclesiarchy world and it's sisters of battle and PDF.
It was unstoppable and had impossible "instinct". It should have just been called intelligent, but no, apparently it's not sapient but can still knows how best to break the morale of an intelligent species. Great logic. But mainly I think it's the unstoppable thing.
It's not as if the Imperium couldn't just pull the Dominus Astra trick again. All it takes is some wards and a crew willing to die (and the Mechanicus being willing to sacrifice the vessel) and there goes a large chunk of the Hive Fleet. I'm going to assume that the reason this isn't used in a lot of engagements is because most ships are protected against the Warp and can re-emerge whereas the Tyranid ships aren't and so die or get corrupted or somesuch).
PresidentOfAsia wrote: The thing is that they're not always deployed 100,000 at a time; the typical regiment has about 2000-3000 men, and not all of them are combatants(support crews, crew chiefs, etc)
Though it is true that many guardsmen do go up against the worst horrors in the galaxy like the Chaos Space Marines, it should also be noted that such is a very rare occurrence
imagine this: meeting space marines is a very rare occurrence, now lets look at chaos space marines which have even lesser numbers
Really, majority of conflicts the IG gets into is no more worse then being stationed in Afghanistan or Somalia
Not true, I'm afraid. We have evidence of regiments ranging from a few thousand to several hundred thousand Guardsmen (up to 750,000 in the Abnettverse). The Siege Regiments of the Death Korps are noted for their enormous size because of the amount of manpower Krieg is able to produce thanks to the Vitae Womb (no, it's not cloning before anyone jumps on that AGAIN) and the way the Siege Regiments, as well as the Death Korps infantry regiments, prefer to wage war, through attrition - wearing down opponents numbers until there is nothing left to oppose the Krieg units. The Guard is noted as having regiments losing thousands of men each day in large scale conflicts, as in across an entire world.
Numbers are heavily inflated across 40k to give a greater sense of scale and what has more of an impact, an army of 2 million Guardsmen facing off against a horde of Tyranids that block out the horizon with their numbers or 3,000 Guardsmen facing a few thousand Tyranids?
I agree that the majority of conflicts the Guard face tend to involve separatists, renegades & so on, whilst the actual conflicts against Xenos (besides Orks) tend to be very rare.
Your fascination with the DKoK just made me spend 5 minutes reading their entry on Lexicanum.. they sound like they would be the ultimate badasses!
Nothing like rigorous nuclear fire, training from birth, and endless Religious programming to make people utterly utterly dogmatic and unflinching in their every waking hour. They would make the Taliban look like a punch of whoopsies.
I think the IG's status as "regular humans" is actually part of the appeal of the army. They don't have chaos demons, they're not a genetically engineered killing machine in power army,they're not millenia-old robots. Just regular old guys with guns.
Generally speaking there are two depictions of the Guard:
1.) Desperate poorly trained/equipped cannon fodder sent to their deaths by the hundreds of thousands in a hopeless battle against superior enemies. Retreat, and they will meet a traitor's end at the barrel of a Commissar's pistol
2.) Elite soldiers, the best of their worlds PDF's, equipped with the extraordinarily powerful lasgun. Well-motivated, independent thinking, competent. Have a professionalized feel to them. Inflict enormous casualties on their enemies, who can only break them by weight of numbers or clever trickery. Why have Space Marines anyway?
Generally speaking, direct GW studio/codex publications prefer #1, dakka/many Black Library books (most notably the Cain series) #2
One of the reasons I decided to start an IG force is precisely because of the allure of an army that simply has incalculable numbers (seemingly endless stream of fighting me) who I can identify with readily. They aren't engineered, they aren't mutants or anything like that. They're just men like myself who have been slung into the hell of warfare and either adapt or die - usually against foes who are superior in some way or another. They fear the conflict but have no choice but to press onward or face their commissars. Bullets from the enemy or the ally, except one of them allows you a chance at survival.
Sort of reminds me of the brutal conflict in the Eastern theater during WW2. A titanic clash of 5 million men unparalleled by anything else in history. War is madness. Now I'm gonna go make people wish they were never born in BF2142.
Kain wrote: Didn't the retcon definitively set the Necrons at sixty million years instead of maybe billions ("near the start of the galaxy's formation" would put them at around ten billion or so)?
As I recall, the number given is 4 billion, and some time apparently shortly thereafter they go to sleep and wake up after sixty million years, which is about now because Mat Ward accidentally a whole math.
The whole argument of "well, the Guard have numbers, so that's why they win" is rather silly, when in almost every instance they're going to outnumbered, as their primary enemies in descending order of size are: PDF traitors/chaos cultists/mutants, Orks, and Tyranids. Everything else is so rare as to be completely negligible (for instance, there are, going off the canonical numbers, in excess of one thousand regiments of Guard per Space Marine - not per chapter, per individual marine).
That the Guard forms the single largest coherent fighting force in the setting is irrelevant when in nearly every fight they're the smaller, elite force with the best weapons and strategy.
Kain wrote: Didn't the retcon definitively set the Necrons at sixty million years instead of maybe billions ("near the start of the galaxy's formation" would put them at around ten billion or so)?
As I recall, the number given is 4 billion, and some time apparently shortly thereafter they go to sleep and wake up after sixty million years, which is about now because Mat Ward accidentally a whole math.
The whole argument of "well, the Guard have numbers, so that's why they win" is rather silly, when in almost every instance they're going to outnumbered, as their primary enemies in descending order of size are: PDF traitors/chaos cultists/mutants, Orks, and Tyranids. Everything else is so rare as to be completely negligible (for instance, there are, going off the canonical numbers, in excess of one thousand regiments of Guard per Space Marine - not per chapter, per individual marine).
That the Guard forms the single largest coherent fighting force in the setting is irrelevant when in nearly every fight they're the smaller, elite force with the best weapons and strategy.
Well Chenkov is the most stereotypical guardsman commander.
Pity the fool if he has to fight Tyranids with his usual tactics though.
I think Imperial Guard suffer from being used for two very different purposes by GW.
1. The Imperial Guard is used as a contrast against which to set the more Super Human, sci-fantasy elements of 40K. To give you a sense of the physical strength of a Space Marine, you contrast him against the "puny" strength of regular human. To give you a sense of the military/tactical brilliance of a Space Marine, you contrast their actions against the "inept" military/tactical approach of the Imperial Guard.
Of course, no Codex or Black Library author actually knows how the "tactical brilliance" of an army made from genetically superhumans bred for war from birth and with 500+ years of battlefield-experience each would actually be. To short-cut the problem, you give Space Marines "good" military tactics that you can actually research by reading up on actual "real life" modern military and exaggerate the difference by attribution obviously bad military tactics to the "contrast-counterpoint" of the Imperial Guard.
2. The Imperial Guard is used to lure in people from the historical wargaming/military wargaming, (real)-tank-modelling side of the hobby. There's a huge segment of the market. Whole games like Flames of War and/or whole Miniature companies like Revell thrive on it. The Imperial Guard is GW's mantrap to get these people into 40K, as they tend not to be interested in Space-Elf-Sorcerers-on-Flying-Bikes so much.
Of course, to make the Imperial Guard interesting and appealing to the second type of people, you cannot use the "contrast" approach used under 1), but have to describe it as competent military that is "cool" in its own right. Ironically, the second kind of "border-line-historical-gamers" are likely more interested and versed in the actual military/tactical stuff than the first crowd.
GW caters to both 1) and 2), and by and large, the kitchen-sink of 40K allows for both. But every-time a person into 40K, and specifically into Imperial Guard, from 2) stumbles upon a piece of fluff meant for the crowd in 1) (or a player from the first crowd retelling his perception of the Imperial Guard), the paradox in it is painfully revealed.
"Puny" is a fairly relative term; the Imperial Guard are "puny" in the sense that they're normal, if well-trained, human beings with laser rifles and combat armor in a setting where they're fighting evil eight-foot power-armored genetically-engineered superhumans wielding fully-automatic armor-piercing rocket-propelled grenade launchers, centuries-old powerfully-psychic space elves with technology beyond humanity's wildest dreams and a working knowledge of the future, millennia-old self-repairing immortal metal robots that use guns and engines that completely override humanity's knowledge of physics, endless swarms of alien insect things whose corpses just get melted down to make more alien insect things if you kill them conventionally, and the like.
The Imperial Guard are probably more hardcore than any fighting force in the modern world, simply because of all the overpowered crap they have to fight, but that doesn't make them not "puny" in the context of the overpowered crap they have to fight.
Pity the fool if he has to fight Tyranids with his usual tactics though.
He has. He won. Crushed them under the boots of half a million men as I recall. Considering his Codex entry says that he leads from the front, he must be doing something right.
Void__Dragon wrote:It hasn't, but I wouldn't count an extinct race in the running.
I see. Not sure I'd count them as extinct if most of them are still partially conscious and some may well be partially free.
Pity the fool if he has to fight Tyranids with his usual tactics though.
He has. He won. Crushed them under the boots of half a million men as I recall. Considering his Codex entry says that he leads from the front, he must be doing something right.
Void__Dragon wrote:It hasn't, but I wouldn't count an extinct race in the running.
I see. Not sure I'd count them as extinct if most of them are still partially conscious and some may well be partially free.
Because that's what they are when you compare them to the other races of 40k. You have genetically enhanced supermen who wear enough armour to protect a tank going up against 10 feet tall demons.
The individual human is puny against everything the rest of the galaxy can throw at it, what can one person do against genetically enhanced super warriors or a carnifex with scythes that can tear though solid metal?
Give a man a lasgun though and lump him in an galaxy-wide fighting force made up of trillions like him with a ton of powerful tanks to back him up and you'll find that the "puny little human" and his peers can become quite a dangerous thing indeed. Imperium would be nothing without them.
"Spit at them alone and you can't change a thing, but if you spit together you can drown the b******s."
Ardaric_Vaanes wrote: The individual human is puny against everything the rest of the galaxy can throw at it, what can one person do against genetically enhanced super warriors or a carnifex with scythes that can tear though solid metal?
Give a man a lasgun though and lump him in an galaxy-wide fighting force made up of trillions like him with a ton of powerful tanks to back him up and you'll find that the "puny little human" and his peers can become quite a dangerous thing indeed. Imperium would be nothing without them.
"Spit at them alone and you can't change a thing, but if you spit together you can drown the b******s."
The problem arises when you meet Orks and Tyranids and possibly Necrons who can very easily outnumber the Imperial Guard.
Ardaric_Vaanes wrote: The individual human is puny against everything the rest of the galaxy can throw at it, what can one person do against genetically enhanced super warriors or a carnifex with scythes that can tear though solid metal?
Give a man a lasgun though and lump him in an galaxy-wide fighting force made up of trillions like him with a ton of powerful tanks to back him up and you'll find that the "puny little human" and his peers can become quite a dangerous thing indeed. Imperium would be nothing without them.
"Spit at them alone and you can't change a thing, but if you spit together you can drown the b******s."
The problem arises when you meet Orks and Tyranids and possibly Necrons who can very easily outnumber the Imperial Guard.
Yeah, they can be outnumbered by these races but that's why they have Marines to call in (like when the Praetors of Orpheus showed up to back the IG in 'Fear the Alien') when they are too overpowered by the foe. The IG are also able to stand up for a good long while because of their weaponry I suppose. Against Necrons not much has a hope anyway, but against Nids it's a war of attrition and Orks - well it's the same thing, just look at Armageddon as a great example.
The allies matrix has done a lot for fluffy battles for 40Kimo (even though some of the alliances on that matrix are just absurd fluff-wise). Now we can have awesome battles like in the books where two forces work together.
If we were to actually scale the power and numbers of certain races to real-life measurements, the end-result would be Tyranids vs. Necrons. If Necrons all awoke from their slumber at once and united utterly, they would wipe out humanity and most life, thereby ending the fuel that powers Chaos and just defend their galactic empire from the external (and lightly peppered internal) threat of the Tyranid hive fleets and main fleets in the galactic void. A race with unimaginably powerful and advanced technology against a race with incredible numbers, tenacity, and unshakeable morale. Although one wonders, if the Necrons scoured the galaxy of life, would the main fleet know this and simply re-direct its course to another galaxy?
I'd just like to see the look on his face if he ever has to fight anything that can play his game better than he can.
Tyranids play the numbers game better than Chenkov can. They still lost. Probably because he doesn't always just throw men at the enemy like the assumption seems to be. He may sacrifice soldiers but he apparently does so for a purpose, even if it's just to save time on taking an objective. One would imagine that against the Orks and Tyranids he wouldn't try to match casualty for casualty.
I'd just like to see the look on his face if he ever has to fight anything that can play his game better than he can.
Tyranids play the numbers game better than Chenkov can. They still lost. Probably because he doesn't always just throw men at the enemy like the assumption seems to be. He may sacrifice soldiers but he apparently does so for a purpose, even if it's just to save time on taking an objective. One would imagine that against the Orks and Tyranids he wouldn't try to match casualty for casualty.
And then he gets murdered by Lictors/Kommandos/Deathmarks.
Just to mention: Tau Firewarriors are just better armed than a normal IG, and they are even worse in melee... ( Considering a firewarrior dont really need to be a Tau at all, a few novels have humans in those armors )
I'd just like to see the look on his face if he ever has to fight anything that can play his game better than he can.
Tyranids play the numbers game better than Chenkov can. They still lost. Probably because he doesn't always just throw men at the enemy like the assumption seems to be. He may sacrifice soldiers but he apparently does so for a purpose, even if it's just to save time on taking an objective. One would imagine that against the Orks and Tyranids he wouldn't try to match casualty for casualty.
And then he gets murdered by Lictors/Kommandos/Deathmarks.
Well if we're doing it that, way, the Necron Lord/Hive Tyrant/Boss all get assassinated by stormtroopers...
This topic reminds me of a quote from the Space Wolves Primarch Leman Russ;
"Only in the Space Marines of the Legiones Astartes are courage and expertise perfectly blended. In other troops they are present in varying degrees and proportions, and many scholars have debated their relative merits.
For my own part, I come down on the side of courage. For courage can sometimes make a virtue of inexperience. I myself have commanded Imperial Guard troops whose probitor units have achieved great things, because they were too inexperienced to realise that their goal was impossible."
- (Leman Russ on the military use of Whiteshields, De Natura Belli, Book XIV)
In Wahammer 40k the vast majority of Imperial Guard units are completely expendable as far as the high command of humanity is concerned, but they vastly out number even the combined entirety of all the Adeptus Astartes chapters, all 1000+ of them combined. But the former being said they both contrast and complement Adeptus Astartes, as I've seen it said they form the "Hammer and Scalpel" of the Imperium respectfully.
The Imperial Guard are the hammer as the simple crush through enemies of the Imperium with sheer overwhelming superiority in numbers, batter their foes into submission, wave after wave, artillery bombardment after artillery bombardment, not giving up until either they or their foe lives broken and beaten.
In opposite to the Imperial Guard the Space Marines are meant to be like a scalpel, striking pinpoint targets and locations, to cripple the enemy by hitting them where they are most vulnerable, said places being the most well guarded on the battlefield, places only the war build and battle hardened fearless Astarte would dare to tread.
But just because they are mean to be expendable doesn't mean a handful of them can't achieve great things, just look at Lieutenant Mira from Warhammer 40k: Space Marine! Through charisma, cunning and sheer force of will she keep a not in sizable group of Imperial Guard units not only alive but fighting back even after the majority of Graia's PDF had been utterly destroyed by the Orks, including all of her superiors.
Though the Space Marines under Captain Titus where the ones to finish the fight they could not have done it without the Imperial Guard, and to that extent the tireless work of Lieutenant Mira keeping them alive and fighting.
Basically, the guardsmen are just puny humans. Comparing them to different races, they completely useless individually. From the hundreds of IG novels Ive read, it always appears as if they have trouble fighting mere cultists and insurgencies. In the book Flesh and Iron, the Riverine Guard companies struggled to fight off a bunch of mutated cultists and 2 Chaos Space Marines. In Dan Abnett's The Saint, Tanith First would die left, right and centre mostly against poorly equipped cultists. Thats why I love them though.
Griddlelol wrote: Your failure in logic is that you're trying to equate 40K to real life. Don't. It doesn't work. In the fantasy that is the year 40,000 humans are innumerable and expendable en mass. They are based on WW1 with slow infantry, tractor like tanks and inaccurate artillery. If you want an army that's more like today's infantry, the space marines are just that.
Real life soldiers dont drop in with only a single squad and engage the enemy with chainswords
Remember that ig regiments hail from the best of the pdf regiments
Seriously im fething tired of this space marines aré the only competent force crap
I agree that 40k isnt real life, but the ig regiments are based on real life armies
I can see your point and why you are annoyed. Often anybody wanting to say a Guardsman can think of a good way to attack an enemy on the spot must go to great lengths to explain why that Guardsman is smart enough. Though most other races being clever is never questioned.
I find the same reaction with Tyranids. Any form of Tyranid intellect, strategy or bio-tech must be explained and rationalised in real world terms in extreme detail. However humans with warpdrives? How do those things work and how could they ever make them. Explanations for this and other fancy stuff is never need for humans, Eldar, Necrons or even Tau. Even then many will say Tyranids can't do this or that and ignore that Tyranids are the most adaptive and fast advancing race around, they even put the Tau to utter shame with how fast they develop new tech. Not to mention Tyranid bio-tech is well beyond what the Emperor used to create the Marines. Marines need years to be trained and require huge amounts of equipment to be useful compared to the hours it takes to spawn a Hive Tyrant which is superior to any Marine but also more easily replaced.
Not to mention half of the Primarchs and their legions became traitors, deeply flawed in a human military sense and a Tyranid bio-tech sense. However no one mentions this when bashing Guard and Nids.
I can see your point and why you are annoyed. Often anybody wanting to say a Guardsman can think of a good way to attack an enemy on the spot must go to great lengths to explain why that Guardsman is smart enough. Though most other races being clever is never questioned.
I find the same reaction with Tyranids. Any form of Tyranid intellect, strategy or bio-tech must be explained and rationalised in real world terms in extreme detail. However humans with warpdrives? How do those things work and how could they ever make them. Explanations for this and other fancy stuff is never need for humans, Eldar, Necrons or even Tau. Even then many will say Tyranids can't do this or that and ignore that Tyranids are the most adaptive and fast advancing race around, they even put the Tau to utter shame with how fast they develop new tech. Not to mention Tyranid bio-tech is well beyond what the Emperor used to create the Marines. Marines need years to be trained and require huge amounts of equipment to be useful compared to the hours it takes to spawn a Hive Tyrant which is superior to any Marine but also more easily replaced.
Not to mention half of the Primarchs and their legions became traitors, deeply flawed in a human military sense and a Tyranid bio-tech sense. However no one mentions this when bashing Guard and Nids.
Well said. I had this same conversation with a friend who thought it was outragous to say that a species created living ships that could not only survive and travel space but also jump galaxies. Would it be easy? no. Would it be possible? given enough time i think naturecan do whatever it likes.
Here here to the Guardsmen and Tyranids! wave after wave of awesomeness
swagmasteryolo wrote: Basically, the guardsmen are just puny humans. Comparing them to different races, they completely useless individually. From the hundreds of IG novels Ive read, it always appears as if they have trouble fighting mere cultists and insurgencies. In the book Flesh and Iron, the Riverine Guard companies struggled to fight off a bunch of mutated cultists and 2 Chaos Space Marines. In Dan Abnett's The Saint, Tanith First would die left, right and centre mostly against poorly equipped cultists. Thats why I love them though.
That's the thing about guns: they're excellent combat equalizers.
Whether you're from a dirt-poor country or an extremely, fantastically wealthy one, a small bit of metal flung through you at hyper-velocity kills you just as dead.
What people got to realize is that the Imperial Guard does use tactics
Only problem is that most GW writers tend to be fat neckbeards who know little of the military and/or lack creativity and thus can't write a proper military story
The ones that do know(Imperial Armour writers for example) make the best Imperial Guard media
Seriously, I hate "DURRR ITS GRIMDARK, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR TACTICS, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN STUPID FICTION EVERYBODY JUST CHARGES DIES THEN WINS" excuse, its like those whiny deviantartlets who can't take critique because its they claim "ITS MY STYLE"
Thats why I believe Halo's lore is much better then 40k, its grimdark and yet, makes a lot more ense and doesn't hide behind, "DURR ITS SCIENCE FICTION JUST DEAL WITH IT"
Of course the Imperial Guard use tactics. But it's not always the same tactics that people today consider to be sane, humane, or competent.
At the highest levels, the people who are making military strategy are, at least in theory, attempting to wage their war in such a way as to make the most optimal use of their resources. In many of the cultures that we consider more 'developed' there exists a pervasive notion that human life is worth more than money. However, in the dystopian future that is 40k, much like in several real world cultures that still exist today, human life has a definite value, and the higher-ups are all too willing to sacrifice men if that's the cheaper and, to them, more effective tactic.
That's not saying that the Imperial Guard doesn't use tactics similar to what we consider 'modern military tactics.' They do. When it suits the situation. They also use orbital strikes, artillery bombardments, armored deployments, or surgical strikes by teams of trained specialists, depending on what the situation calls for. Depending on how ruthless an officer is, then sacrificing loads and loads of expendable people is considered a perfectly acceptable strategy.
It may help to remember that there is some implication that high casualty rates among the Imperial Guard is one of the many strategies utilized by the Imperium to ensure its survival. Given the appalling rate of overpopulation on some of them, enforced conscription (and a resulting astronomic casualty rate) is one of the methods which conserves resources and keeps the human race of the future alive.
PresidentOfAsia wrote: What people got to realize is that the Imperial Guard does use tactics
Only problem is that most GW writers tend to be fat neckbeards who know little of the military and/or lack creativity and thus can't write a proper military story
The ones that do know(Imperial Armour writers for example) make the best Imperial Guard media
Seriously, I hate "DURRR ITS GRIMDARK, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR TACTICS, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN STUPID FICTION EVERYBODY JUST CHARGES DIES THEN WINS" excuse, its like those whiny deviantartlets who can't take critique because its they claim "ITS MY STYLE"
Thats why I believe Halo's lore is much better then 40k, its grimdark and yet, makes a lot more ense and doesn't hide behind, "DURR ITS SCIENCE FICTION JUST DEAL WITH IT"
The Halo books are complete garbage with the exception of those written by Greg Bears. And the story of the games is an incredibly generic space opera that fanboys seem to think is the LOTR of scifi (hint, that title belongs solely to the Culture books written by the now deceased Iain M Banks).
Read some Dan Abnett or Alex Stuart/Sandy Mitchell or ADB for more realistic tactics.
You also have to remember that the Imperium holds no intristic value towards human life, a tank takes more effort to make than a human, so most Imperial Generals will gladly sacrifice soldiers to protect their tanks. It's abhorrent to us, but we don't have a population in the quadrillions comprised out of fanatics who would gladly sacrifice themselves to the god emperor.
I mean, what would you sacrifice if you only saw the military value of humans? A soldier you can train up in a month or two and have more replacements than there are stars in the galaxy by orders of magnitude or a tank declared sacred by your only real engineering group?
PresidentOfAsia wrote:What people got to realize is that the Imperial Guard does use tactics
"People" also need to realise that, at least according to GW's own writing, there is no Imperial Guard as in = a single uniform body of troops with comparable expertise and equipment. This is why regimental sizes depend on the planet, after all - with the Departmento Munitorum's tithe set to balance a lack of quality with quantity. The 5E Guard Codex goes into a bit of detail regarding this.
Anyways, I'd assume that a nobleborn and academy-trained Cadian officer's tactics differ considerably from those employed by a, say, Warchief Cohan of the 1982nd Hyborian Broadswords. The Imperial Guard is one of the places in 40k where it can be exactly what you want it to be, simply because every planet's culture is different, therefore every planet's PDF is different, and so will be the Guard regiments raised from them.
Because they're not Fungus-Hulk, Captain Imperium, Elf Widow, Aliens(TM), or Iron-Zombie?
I mean, essentially they're just normal people with sub-par flashlight guns the Imperium gave them for cheap. Their strength lies in heavy weapons, superior numbers, and an amazing array of Mechs and Vehicles.
the story of the games is an incredibly generic space opera that fanboys seem to think is the LOTR of scifi
The Lotr of sci-fi?
If you mean the cliched and contrived worldview written by complete hacks, I agree with you. (Whilst Halo was hardly original, neither was lotr. Tolkien pillaged norse and more legends and folk tales and mashed them into his melange - I'm the rare gamer who is not a fan of either).
And I couldn't stand Bank's stuff.
When it comes to realistic battle writing, you can't go past someone who WAS a soldier, writing it. If it makes you NOT want to be there, then it served its purpose.
I prefer David Drake to any of GW/BL stable of writers. 40kBL fiction is as bad as the Halo stuff - worse in many cases. Marine mary-sue fanwank bolterporn. That includes stuff written by Dan Abnett - whom I regard as one of their better ones because he tends NOT to focus on the marines (because they are boring).
The Guard looses millions of troopers per day, all across the Galaxy: it also gain millions of new recruits every day all across the Galaxy as well.
Keep in mind, in the grimdark future of 40k the end justifies the mean (of course, except if you commit heresy, treason or sedition) to loosing let's say, 100k troops in an assault if that means the day is yours and the planet you're on remains to the Emperor, then all's well that ends well. Plus with the technology being what it is, you'd better send those 2000 guys to their death to save the Leman Russes, it's not like there's actual reliable logistics, or that the Tech-Priest won't simply put his foot down and be trouble (what with them not really being under your command, more cooperating at his own discretion)
Let's not mention the Commissars who's quite inquisitive about when will Objective X be taken, scrutinizing your every decisions, but always reminding you that you are in command and responsible for the success, of failure of the mission/campaign/crusade
And again all depends on who you are: a Cadian does not fight as a Mordian or a Catachan or a Steel Legionnaire or a Feudal inbred with a laslock, any of them will not approach a situation with the same tactical acumen...but at the end of the day, the orders come from high up and you'd better have that Hill/crossroad/spaceport by 1800 or someone will have to answer for the delay.
TheCustomLime wrote: (If it has yet to be destroyed despite several tries, that means no one has tried hard enough yet!).
This is going to be my life code. On the battlefield, my Necrons are losing badly... What's that? It can't be beaten? Well, if you try really hard, you could beat it! LOGIC yea!
the story of the games is an incredibly generic space opera that fanboys seem to think is the LOTR of scifi
The Lotr of sci-fi?
If you mean the cliched and contrived worldview written by complete hacks, I agree with you. (Whilst Halo was hardly original, neither was lotr. Tolkien pillaged norse and more legends and folk tales and mashed them into his melange - I'm the rare gamer who is not a fan of either).
What are you a fan of then? Most art draws inspiration from previous works, often taking parts from various sources to create something entirely new. If you discount anything that draws inspiration from somewhere else, and isn't a completely original work, you're limiting yourself to probably <1% of all art/media.
While I haven't read any David Drake, I did find this little snippet about his work
Drake based the Hammer's Slammers on his service with the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment in Vietnam and Cambodia in 1970,[1] however Drake also borrows plots from historical or mythological sources for many of the Hammer's Slammers stories as with his other work. For example, he retells the story of Jason and the Argonauts in The Voyage, and part of the Odyssey in Cross the Stars.
Don't read BL if you want to read about realistic tactics, operations, or strategy. I read some of the books for what they are: fun warporn.
I've heard many people argue "But the IG fight just like the Russians, ready to lose millions but they have millions more!"
Eh, kind of. In WW1, the Russian Empire lost millions and left the war. In WW2, they lost millions because of incompetent commanders. In the latter half of the war, competent commanders were able to turn the tide. They still lost more men than the Germans, but their tactics and strategies were better than that of the Germans. (Look up each sides tactics and operations at Kursk and Operation Bagration to highlight this).
So, when I see IG, I do kind of see some of them as Soviets, but of the later WW2 variety; still taking higher casualties than the enemy, but with superior tactics, massive firepower, and most importantly of all, airpower!
^ Yet during the battle for Berlin the Russians took far more casualties than necessary because every commander's reputation and livelihood was on the line.
Think of humans as army ants - individually they may seem weak but when amassed they are a formidable adversary. Even Tyranids with their endless variety of combat organisms don't qualify because they have so many larger variants. Being 'puny' is only in the eye of the beholder.
Flanker wrote: Don't read BL if you want to read about realistic tactics, operations, or strategy. I read some of the books for what they are: fun warporn.
I've heard many people argue "But the IG fight just like the Russians, ready to lose millions but they have millions more!"
Eh, kind of. In WW1, the Russian Empire lost millions and left the war. In WW2, they lost millions because of incompetent commanders. In the latter half of the war, competent commanders were able to turn the tide. They still lost more men than the Germans, but their tactics and strategies were better than that of the Germans. (Look up each sides tactics and operations at Kursk and Operation Bagration to highlight this).
So, when I see IG, I do kind of see some of them as Soviets, but of the later WW2 variety; still taking higher casualties than the enemy, but with superior tactics, massive firepower, and most importantly of all, airpower!
Their strategies in some cases yes (especially at the end of the war where the German forces basically had no strategy thanks to an irrational leader), though tactics and tactical level communication was generally their failing and what led to the massive casualties. The Germans still almost broke through at Kursk in the south (though they were rather more quickly stopped in the North), quickly learning the new Russian methods, had it not been for massive operational reserves that the Red Army had been allowed to build up it's entirely possible that Kursk would have had a different ending, and that's with the operation having been delayed and repeatedly fuddled with by intervention from the top on the German side. While Bagration was very well planned out, the Red Army outnumbered the Wehrmacht's Army Group Center several times over, 5-1 in personnel, 8-1 in tanks and assault guns, nearly 10-1 in anti-tank guns and artillery, and nearly 9-1 in terms of aircraft.
That said I don't necessarily disagree with your characterization of the Imperial Guard
Flanker wrote: Don't read BL if you want to read about realistic tactics, operations, or strategy. I read some of the books for what they are: fun warporn.
I've heard many people argue "But the IG fight just like the Russians, ready to lose millions but they have millions more!"
Eh, kind of. In WW1, the Russian Empire lost millions and left the war. In WW2, they lost millions because of incompetent commanders. In the latter half of the war, competent commanders were able to turn the tide. They still lost more men than the Germans, but their tactics and strategies were better than that of the Germans. (Look up each sides tactics and operations at Kursk and Operation Bagration to highlight this).
So, when I see IG, I do kind of see some of them as Soviets, but of the later WW2 variety; still taking higher casualties than the enemy, but with superior tactics, massive firepower, and most importantly of all, airpower!
Their strategies in some cases yes (especially at the end of the war where the German forces basically had no strategy thanks to an irrational leader), though tactics and tactical level communication was generally their failing and what led to the massive casualties. The Germans still almost broke through at Kursk in the south (though they were rather more quickly stopped in the North), quickly learning the new Russian methods, had it not been for massive operational reserves that the Red Army had been allowed to build up it's entirely possible that Kursk would have had a different ending, and that's with the operation having been delayed and repeatedly fuddled with by intervention from the top on the German side. While Bagration was very well planned out, the Red Army outnumbered the Wehrmacht's Army Group Center several times over, 5-1 in personnel, 8-1 in tanks and assault guns, nearly 10-1 in anti-tank guns and artillery, and nearly 9-1 in terms of aircraft.
That said I don't necessarily disagree with your characterization of the Imperial Guard
I can go on and on about this subject, but I'd rather not for the sake of your boredom or fear of developing carpal tunnel. Essentially: Defense in depth was the key to fighting against the Blitzkrieg. Russians learned it the hard way! On the German side, you know you're screwed when you're in the 18th German Army going up against the 42nd, 54th, and 67th Soviet armies! That's how I like to think the enemies of the Imperial Guard feel.
What are you a fan of then? Most art draws inspiration from previous works, often taking parts from various sources to create something entirely new. If you discount anything that draws inspiration from somewhere else, and isn't a completely original work, you're limiting yourself to probably <1% of all art/media.
While I haven't read any David Drake, I did find this little snippet about his work
Congratulations, you seem to have stumbled upon Sturgeon's law all by yourself. 99% of everything is crap.
I try to restrict myself to the remaining 1% that isn't.
I don't watch a lot of TV, movies or anime. I don't read comics anymore, either (mainly because it's next to impossible to get what I used to read here without pre-ordering a year's worth. With a full prepayment.). Not going to spend $200 on a single comic for a year.)
Yes, pretty much all stuff is derivative of the seven classic plots. However, I found the Snorri eddas to be a much better read than Tolkien.
Even Drake had a go at them - with one of his trilogies. It was still better written than either tolkien's camp retreads OR Blergh library.
And by giving what I don't like silly nicknames, I sound more credible! Because you did that too, you've now convinced me of your sound judgment in what constitutes good reading material! [/end horrific sarcasm her]
In all seriousness, throwing around things like "tolkien's camp retreads" and "blergh library" simply does not improve credibility. It's all opinion in these cases, but an opinion that does not essentially resort to name calling(of inanimate objects in this case) to reason itself out holds much more water.
It really depends on the guard regiment, there are some that use tactics more like today's military, and some that just throw bodies at the enemy WW1 style. Most Guard regiments are composed of the elite of the elite from a planet, hardened veterans who've volunteered for service... so in a way it's like having an entire army of Navy Seals. And yes the well trained and equipped ones are capable of taking out space marines, but it's not an easy fight by any means.
Even then compared to what they are fighting, they are still squishy and weak. But they do have big guns and numbers. It's just, what are we comparing them to? Space Marines are superhuman monstrosities, only the rarest mortals will ever come close to doing what a space marine does and never with the same strength and physical ability.... Orks are pretty much like Gorillas in terms of their physique... except harder to kill...
The only race that are actually more puny than humans are the Tau. All told, the Guard is probably the most powerful military force in the galaxy, due to numbers, except perhaps if the Orks stopped fighting each other, they would outnumber even the Guard.
The IG certainly aren't just puny humans, they are (mostly) well-trained, well-armed puny humans. Some of the better regiments are probably even capable of holding their own against against some of the fiercest enemies of the IoM... provided, of course, they outnumber that enemy 100's if not 1000's to one (which they usually do). When they don't have the numbers, or are surprised, or lack orbital/air superiority, they get stomped to varying degrees.
Now, the PDF's, on the other hand, those are real meat shields.
It was coined by a writer. A science fiction writer called Theodore Sturgeon. Look him up and discover that SF exists outside of 40k and a lot of it - even at its worst - is still better written than GW/BL.
You may want to be careful you're starting to sound like one of those needlessly contrarian hipster guys who subtly insinuates he's better than the helpless sheeple for disliking popular things.
What are you a fan of then? Most art draws inspiration from previous works, often taking parts from various sources to create something entirely new. If you discount anything that draws inspiration from somewhere else, and isn't a completely original work, you're limiting yourself to probably <1% of all art/media.
While I haven't read any David Drake, I did find this little snippet about his work
Congratulations, you seem to have stumbled upon Sturgeon's law all by yourself. 99% of everything is crap.
I try to restrict myself to the remaining 1% that isn't.
I don't watch a lot of TV, movies or anime. I don't read comics anymore, either (mainly because it's next to impossible to get what I used to read here without pre-ordering a year's worth. With a full prepayment.). Not going to spend $200 on a single comic for a year.)
Yes, pretty much all stuff is derivative of the seven classic plots. However, I found the Snorri eddas to be a much better read than Tolkien.
Even Drake had a go at them - with one of his trilogies. It was still better written than either tolkien's camp retreads OR Blergh library.
Wow, insulted by a hipster. I'll let you to get back to listening to music none of us have ever heard of, and even if we have, we probably don't "get" it.
OT: IG are regarded as puny humans, because well, they're puny humans.
It was coined by a writer. A science fiction writer called Theodore Sturgeon. Look him up and discover that SF exists outside of 40k and a lot of it - even at its worst - is still better written than GW/BL.
You missed the rest of my post there bud, I wasn't referring to Sturgeon. I even clarified it, and ya still missed it. You also fail to realize I'm well aware of SF outside of 40k; your assumptions are quite silly. Each author, including each author for the BL, has a different writing style. It's a matter of realizing that instead of, as others have pointed out, trying to be a hipster.
asimo77 wrote: You may want to be careful you're starting to sound like one of those needlessly contrarian hipster guys who subtly insinuates he's better than the helpless sheeple for disliking popular things.
I'm TOO old to be a hipster. I'm so old I didn't like most of this stuff the LAST time it came around. The only reason I still have a fixie is because I STILL have it from when I first bought in the 80s. It's not out of some retro-hipster thing - I just can't be arsed to throw it out.
I'm just a contrarian grumpy old guy.
With a long 'ignore list' that gets longer by the day.
I agree IG get a lot of unfair criticism. Its true that a sinlge IG conscript is just a puny human. But the same would go for just a single ork or a single tyranid gaunt. Thats how the horde races wok right? you send unending waves of "puny infantry" that eventually overwhelm anything. This strategy seems to work well for the IG and i can definitely say its been used to defeat me and my orks on more then one occasion
asimo77 wrote: You may want to be careful you're starting to sound like one of those needlessly contrarian hipster guys who subtly insinuates he's better than the helpless sheeple for disliking popular things.
I'm TOO old to be a hipster. I'm so old I didn't like most of this stuff the LAST time it came around.
The only reason I still have a fixie is because I STILL have it from when I first bought in the 80s.
It's not out of some retro-hipster thing - I just can't be arsed to throw it out.
I'm just a contrarian grumpy old guy.
With a long 'ignore list' that gets longer by the day.
You definitely sound hip slagging off Tolkien. Nobody who knows much about Tolkien claims he was James Joyce, and his long and over flowery descriptions can be a little much, but you cant say the guy sucked.. thats just... crazy talk!
One of the appeals of collecting an imperial guard army is that the soldiers don't have wussy power Armour or bionic enhancements or super strength and agility. Out of all the models one can field a guardsmen is certainly the most heroic. Fighting terrifying things with little more then a gun, a helmet and some grenades. Sure guard armies always take plenty of causalities (understatement), but that sacrifice probably isn't that large when you consider that if the guard won they may have saved a planet (thus billions of people) from a tyranid infestation etc,etc.
Anyway tell this poor ork the guardsmen are puny. Got that model sitting under my bed unpainted. Will do it soon.
WE Drake Man wrote: I agree IG get a lot of unfair criticism. Its true that a sinlge IG conscript is just a puny human. But the same would go for just a single ork or a single tyranid gaunt. Thats how the horde races wok right? you send unending waves of "puny infantry" that eventually overwhelm anything. This strategy seems to work well for the IG and i can definitely say its been used to defeat me and my orks on more then one occasion
A single ork boy is stronger than a single guardsman on average overall, though. Thus the guardsman is punier (on average. Single guardsmen can still win sometimes and sometimes you just find exceptional individuals, as shown by the above pic). I don't know how a single gaunt compares. I'd think a single gaunt is even punier than a single (armed, not caught off-guard) guardsman, but I could be wrong. However, I'm not sure it'd apply much since individual gaunts are even less sentient than unsentient animals and thus in most players' eyes not worth sympathizing with or really comparing a guardsman to it.
*the "exceptional individuals" thing applies to real life too. Some soldiers killed an insane amount of enemy soldiers in battle and consistently in some cases, too. So it's actually realistic to have the odd guardsman here or there capable of killing orks like that every once in a while.
What do the tabletop stats look like? I haven't done the math. One guardsman vs one ork boy, at some arbitrary amount of distance (but not right next to each other)? Say.... the max range of a lasgun? Which would have better odds of winning? (let's say each one gets "first turn" an equal amount of times and then run a best 2 out of 3 or something)
Turn 1: Guardsmen is in range, the Ork is not. Its best for the ork to not shoot till he is well within assault range, better to just run.
24" apart. 1 lasgun shot. .138889 unsaved wounds.
Ork moves and runs to get closer. Now a minimum of 17" apart.
Guardsmen moves into rapidfire range. 2 shots. .277778 unsaved wounds. The ork has already take roughly .416667 unsaved wounds.
Ork boy advances, shoots, and assaults. slugga shot. .148148 unsaved wounds on the guardsmen. Overwatch. 2(1/6)(1/3)(5/6)=.092593 unsaved wounds. Combining with previous shots to a total of .509259 unsaved wounds. So a roughly 50/50 chance of the Guardsmen killing the ork before he manages to assault.
Now in melee they go simultaneously.
Guardsmen: 1(.5)(1/3)(5/6)=.13889 unsaved wounds.
Ork Boy: 4(.5)(2/3)(2/3)=.888889 unsaved wounds.
Overall, I'd say an Ork boy vs a Guardsmen on open terrain is a roughly equal chance. Either the Guardsmen manages to kill the Ork at range or he gets caught and clobbered in melee. With a possibility of them killing each other.
Hunh. So the guardsman has equal odds of winning or not even before the Ork has a chance whatsoever. Then still has a slight chance of winning once the Ork does get into range. Which means overall a guardsman will win more than lose.
Guess they really aren't THAT puny. At least, when you include weaponry advantages (obviously unarmed the Ork would win a lot more often)
Well, compared to everything else in the fluff, they are puny. But the courage they have, that is one thing that is not. See, space marines "know no fear", but guardsmen do know fear, and most choose to ignore it, and throw themselves in the meat grinder regardless.
What are you a fan of then? Most art draws inspiration from previous works, often taking parts from various sources to create something entirely new. If you discount anything that draws inspiration from somewhere else, and isn't a completely original work, you're limiting yourself to probably <1% of all art/media.
While I haven't read any David Drake, I did find this little snippet about his work
Congratulations, you seem to have stumbled upon Sturgeon's law all by yourself. 99% of everything is crap.
I try to restrict myself to the remaining 1% that isn't.
I don't watch a lot of TV, movies or anime. I don't read comics anymore, either (mainly because it's next to impossible to get what I used to read here without pre-ordering a year's worth. With a full prepayment.). Not going to spend $200 on a single comic for a year.)
Yes, pretty much all stuff is derivative of the seven classic plots. However, I found the Snorri eddas to be a much better read than Tolkien.
Even Drake had a go at them - with one of his trilogies. It was still better written than either tolkien's camp retreads OR Blergh library.
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, even if it makes you sound like a contrarian hipster. I on the other hand can't stand these "literary classic" authors and universally hate them all, from Homer to Poe. I even found Citizen Kane to be the third worst movie I have ever seen (don't get me started on oscarbait movies). Give me genre fiction any day.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: The guardsman hits first in assault, the Ork gets an Init of 2.
Right, forgot Furious Charge doesn't give +1I anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TiamatRoar wrote: Hunh. So the guardsman has equal odds of winning or not even before the Ork has a chance whatsoever. Then still has a slight chance of winning once the Ork does get into range. Which means overall a guardsman will win more than lose.
Guess they really aren't THAT puny. At least, when you include weaponry advantages (obviously unarmed the Ork would win a lot more often)
No, its just that its roughly 50/50 to kill the ork before it hits melee. At which point the Ork is almost assured of killing the guardsmen.
So overall its an even fight. half the time, the ork will die before reaching melee. The other half of the time he won't.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: The guardsman hits first in assault, the Ork gets an Init of 2.
Right, forgot Furious Charge doesn't give +1I anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TiamatRoar wrote: Hunh. So the guardsman has equal odds of winning or not even before the Ork has a chance whatsoever. Then still has a slight chance of winning once the Ork does get into range. Which means overall a guardsman will win more than lose.
Guess they really aren't THAT puny. At least, when you include weaponry advantages (obviously unarmed the Ork would win a lot more often)
No, its just that its roughly 50/50 to kill the ork before it hits melee. At which point the Ork is almost assured of killing the guardsmen.
So overall its an even fight. half the time, the ork will die before reaching melee. The other half of the time he won't.
50% chance to win before melee even starts.
10% chance to win after melee starts, if it does happen to start.
50% + 10% * (50% chance of melee happening in the first place) = 55% chance to win.
Therefore odds are slightly in the guardsman's favor.
...well, actually, 52% chance to win and 5% chance of them both dying, with Ork having a 43% chance of outright winning. Still technically guardsman's favor.
EDIT OOps, guardsman has initiative. 57% chance of guardsman winning vs 43% chance of ork winning.
I find it ironic that the "puny human" has a lot more to fear from an Ork if the situation involves cover. That sounds so... unorky. You'd think it'd be the other way around (with the puny human wanting to hide behind cover)
chromedog wrote: I'm TOO old to be a hipster. I'm so old I didn't like most of this stuff the LAST time it came around.
The only reason I still have a fixie is because I STILL have it from when I first bought in the 80s.
It's not out of some retro-hipster thing - I just can't be arsed to throw it out.
I'm just a contrarian grumpy old guy.
With a long 'ignore list' that gets longer by the day.
So you've been hipstering about way before hipsters made it cool eh?
starraptor wrote: And also guardsman may not be geneticlly enhanced super soldiers or anything but at least they can get laid.
Give the man a hand!
They can do that too.
This is the kind of thing that should be included in the uplifting primer.
'concern your self not with the honoured Astartes, they may be the Imperiums finest, the finest weapons and armour the Emperor can provide. But you can get laid. '
GW has never actually stated whether or not SM can be laid. The protagonist of the Space Wolves series Ragnar still pined for his old girlfriend according to the Wiki, but it's possible the feelings could have been entirely just romantic and non-sexual.
Poor Slaanesh with his sex-less (and also non-Tzeentchian) marines can look so one-dimensional compared to the Dark Eldar sometimes.
TiamatRoar wrote: GW has never actually stated whether or not SM can be laid. The protagonist of the Space Wolves series Ragnar still pined for his old girlfriend according to the Wiki, but it's possible the feelings could have been entirely just romantic and non-sexual.
Poor Slaanesh with his sex-less (and also non-Tzeentchian) marines can look so one-dimensional compared to the Dark Eldar sometimes.
I'm fairly sure Noise Marines have modifications to engage in non consensual sex with hapless Imperials...and Xenos...and Daemons...and nonsapient animals...and inanimate objects...and abstract concepts.
That's right, somewhere in the eye of terror, there is a noise marine humping communism.
TiamatRoar wrote: GW has never actually stated whether or not SM can be laid. The protagonist of the Space Wolves series Ragnar still pined for his old girlfriend according to the Wiki, but it's possible the feelings could have been entirely just romantic and non-sexual.
Poor Slaanesh with his sex-less (and also non-Tzeentchian) marines can look so one-dimensional compared to the Dark Eldar sometimes.
I'm fairly sure Noise Marines have modifications to engage in non consensual sex with hapless Imperials...and Xenos...and Daemons...and nonsapient animals...and inanimate objects...and abstract concepts.
That's right, somewhere in the eye of terror, there is a noise marine humping communism.
Yea, I didn't convey the meaning very well. I suppose to put things specifically, GW's purposeful ambiguity of space marine sex even ends up applying to Slaanesh marines, if to a lesser degree. I imagine they do sexual things, but we never actually see it. They don't even get a ton of double entendres like the Dark Elder do. The closest thing we had to an implication was the Violators warband introducing a prison of convicts to a bunch of "pleasures" that those prisoners weren't really expecting. GW's just really scared to have people see Space Marines in a sexual light, I suppose.
The whole thing makes Slaanesh look like a red-headed step child compared to Dark Eldar. Who are like, Slaaneshi characters (in terms of personality) that actually have more complex (yet still selfish and Slaaneshi-esque) motivations besides trying to get an extra high on noise.
Its hard comparing the horde races like you guys are doing. Guard can out shoot most races (definitely orks) and orks can win an assault against most races (definitely guard), with the exception of blood angels which will make an ork player want to curl up into a ball and die. If they get up close an ork boy will tear apart a "puny human" guard. But that puny human will probably las-blast the ork before he can say squig. But thats one race, i dont know how guard would fair against chaos space marines or tau for example because ive only faced them with my orks.
TiamatRoar wrote: GW has never actually stated whether or not SM can be laid. The protagonist of the Space Wolves series Ragnar still pined for his old girlfriend according to the Wiki, but it's possible the feelings could have been entirely just romantic and non-sexual.
Poor Slaanesh with his sex-less (and also non-Tzeentchian) marines can look so one-dimensional compared to the Dark Eldar sometimes.
I'm fairly sure Noise Marines have modifications to engage in non consensual sex with hapless Imperials...and Xenos...and Daemons...and nonsapient animals...and inanimate objects...and abstract concepts.
That's right, somewhere in the eye of terror, there is a noise marine humping communism.
Guess the Emp didnt need to create sm then. Or ally himself with mars. Well the mars one's debatable as to weather they're human. The puny humans and their tanks shall conquer the universe for him
the ancient wrote:Guess the Emp didnt need to create sm then. Or ally himself with mars. Well the mars one's debatable as to weather they're human. The puny humans and their tanks shall conquer the universe for him
To be fair, at the start of the Great Crusade, there was just Earth alone, which means a massively lower number of "heads" (as well as means of transportation). Once you have conquered a million worlds, all of which will raise men and women to fight in your name, this first army of supersoldiers that is so much more difficult to create and control becomes more and more redundant.
It may well be that this was part of the reason for why the Imperium opted to dismantle the Legions and put the Astartes in more of an auxiliary role - in addition to the obvious minimising of the risk and potential consequences of further revolts. At the very least the Imperium's leaders were convinced that its military would not suffer much from this step.
Okay I can see where all the hate is coming from and it seems like the SM's are bullying the IG. Now, I am a fellow marine (disregard how I have no pictures) and I feel that the IG are actually not so puny. Yes, they may be small compared to Orks (Obviously not rocketboys or however you say that) and many chaos but look at eldar and tau infantry compared to the IG. They are pretty much the same size and both use tactics that are relative.
Something that is usually disregarded is that humans are quite brave. Obviously marines being the aggressive type but IG can hold positions and other tactics just as well as any other army. You say they charge with incompetence? Well you have to be damn brave to charge...well...anything!
So PUNY is not a very good word to use. Compared by sight they look weak, but they don't give up which probably sounds silly to a lot of you but to me that sounds pretty heroic.
Please excuse how I don't use quotes or refer to books but im not a huge buff on everything yet. Im still trying to finish Hunt for Voldorius. But the Author just needs a bit of encouragement for the army he picked is all. (I assume you picked IG).
Welcome to the Guards boys. It is in this prestigios intituion where you will be learning how to defend humanity from the horrors of the universe. From everything like alien zeno scum to chaos horros that will make you shat yourselves. You will not be getting any genetic super human modifications here, if you thought you were, well you signed up for the wrong program. But what you will get is a crazy commisar that will shoot your head off if you are a coward, if you are a traiter, if you even think about joining up with those chaos punks. But do not fear once you get out of boot camp you will have nerves of steel, a flashlight laser, and 1 up on those space marine astares wusses, you will be able to get laid after a tough mission hurah.
I started 40k about 10 years ago and i played ultramarines, and after going through several armies after ultra marines, ( black templar, deathwing, chaos, orks, etc ) i settled down on im perial guard, i was never interested in any of the backroud or fluff for 40k until i explored into imperial guard. with imperial guard its nt mindless bugs or daemons that arent scared of anything, its a standard soldier with his rifle up against these monstrous creatures and beasts and all he has is himself and the men to his sides. You cant even imagine the fear and courage it takes to stand your ground when fate weaver lands in front of you.... Honestly in the game i feel it would make it more realistic ( but also broken) if my cadian infantry squads had to take an leadership test when a monstrous beast came within 12 inches... but they dont, they stand their ground and fight.
I aslo feel it depends on which guard army your running... like someone said before, if chenkov is in charge of a regiment of Valhallans there is a high chance of a charge that includes many men running across an open field into undeniable death, in the upcoming battle... there will also be many commissars following close behind to make sure this does happen to! But then you take tallarn who dont have nearly as many men and use outflanking, ambushes and fast cavalry to defeat their enemy, and steel legion who use chimeras and armour to preform a blitzkrieg if you will against its enemies. But the newest army i have picked up, Death Korps of Krieg, who, yes, send wave after wave after wave of troops over no mans land to usually take an insignificant objective ( to grand scheme or strategy) and take high amount of casualties to do so, but that is what they have, and death korps of krieg are kinda mindless or brainwashed in their own way. their loyalty goes so deep that giving their life for the emperor is the highest recognition they can receive! but yes their is tactics that go into that, we have engineers that burrow beneath enemy and plant explosives, massive smoke barrages to blind the enemy, preliminary barrages to weaken defenses and they build extensive trench systems that surround and choke an enemy army to death by attrition and siege.
Imperial guard can easily be used tactically or can d heroic things and when a single guardsmen does something epic like kill a warboss or carnifex ,i feel, it makes it even that more special, i dont mind my men being called puny by my friends i play against, they usually vcant beat me anyway... haha I have had a single guardsmen platoon lt kill abadon in close combat 1v1 it was crazy but it happened ( he rolled alot of ones.... alot) and it made the game epic! i love playing my guard and i always build apon them and learn more about them and there backround.
So i said alot and i kinda rambled, but the main thing i want to get across is guard dont have to do the whole endless mass infantry assualt, they can be tactical and still follow fluff and take minimal casualties.
But in the end compared to the monsters and xenos in the 40k universe a single guardsmen is small no matter what training he goes through or how strong he gets, ( yarrick base strength 3 ) but i feel it makes it that much more epic and awesome when a single guardsmen does accomplish something on his own without the genetic upgrades, power armour, daemonic powers or extra strength. just a man his rifle and a a whole lot of courage.
movies to look at that show a good representation to guardsmen in battle rather than comparing them to modern soldiers
Starship troopers: there are 3 but the 1st one is the best great example, i watch the 1stI watch it at least once a month.
Aliens: sequel to Alien shows how humans can be tactical and do huge things with very little, also shows how emotion and fear affect are a factor in battle and how humans can be ripped to shreds by xenos very easily hahaha
and as always starwars.... in the clone wars pay less attention to the jedis fighting for a sec and look at the clone troopers. haha
Thanks for taking an intrest!
Tony A
The whole thing makes Slaanesh look like a red-headed step child compared to Dark Eldar. Who are like, Slaaneshi characters (in terms of personality) that actually have more complex (yet still selfish and Slaaneshi-esque) motivations besides trying to get an extra high on noise.
Dark Eldar are very tame compared with Slaanesh, I'm not sure where you are getting this info from.
Dark Eldar are mostly interested in power, sensation, pleasure is not their sole reason for living. I have the original Slaves to Darkness book where Slaanesh was first detailed. Slaanesh was properly defined and details of his worship given. Slaanesh is vastly more depraved in every way. Today this must be edited to make the game reasonable for youngsters. The Dark Eldar appear extreme only because describing what Slaaneshi followers get up to is too adult for GW and far worse than what the Dark Eldar do.
