I've played a few games with the new codex. I'm feeling...underwhelmed with it. I know we have units everyone just goes nuts over, heldrakes oblits what have you. Maybe the way I'm playing the army isn't correct for the units I have?
I'm running units of 20 marines with a daemon prince with a squad of 20 cultists some termis some bikes and obliterators. I'm only playing at 1500 max atm, and I know that's a lower points value than 2k and 2k is where everything ramps up. But I feel like the units themselves are underwhelming. My last game I ran 2 heldrakes a maulerfiend 2 units of 2 obliterators a nurgle lord some rhinos and a bunch of plague marines. Had my dice almost not been perfect on both sides of offense and defense the tau player could have tabled me easily. Only a dirge caster saved me, which was poor target choice by my opponent. If I wouldn't have gotten that 1 5 point upgrade he would have either overwatched or intercepted every unit of termis oblits or even my heldrakes that came in. I never feel like I have a proper unit for the situation I'm in when every unit is designed to be a swiss army knife or that's the idea of the army. I feel like we're the orks of the MEQ world, we have everything but it only works because we're 10,000 yrs old and mad about it.
Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete? I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?
I'm having decent luck with the army. You just need to learn what has value and what doesn't. Things like the Boon table are a fun bonus, but should never be relied on, and the only time you should ever pay points for rolls on it is in an army built around Dark Apostles. I've been running a big blob of Marines, mobs of cultists, and the same Marines in Rhinos and Vindicators I used to run, and I'm doing pretty well. I pretty handily steamrolled my opponent tonight, and had him almost tabled by the end of turn 3. The new codices have been around the same power level, and while Chaos might have suffered a little from being first to the party, it's a good codex.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How does Belial beat Typhus? Typhus has a Force Weapon, Belial's sword isn't even AP2. What am I missing?
The sword of silence? Something with fleshbane, like I said it could very well be some TERRIBLE dice rolls. I'm just...bleh lol I haven't seen a heldrake come in before turn 3 yet maybe even turn 4 =/
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Brother SRM wrote: I'm having decent luck with the army. You just need to learn what has value and what doesn't. Things like the Boon table are a fun bonus, but should never be relied on, and the only time you should ever pay points for rolls on it is in an army built around Dark Apostles. I've been running a big blob of Marines, mobs of cultists, and the same Marines in Rhinos and Vindicators I used to run, and I'm doing pretty well. I pretty handily steamrolled my opponent tonight, and had him almost tabled by the end of turn 3. The new codices have been around the same power level, and while Chaos might have suffered a little from being first to the party, it's a good codex.
I honestly feel like it has power and I see that, but it seems like if you're not playing everything nurgle or even marked with it you're handicapping yourself. I'm playing iron warriors and I'm looking at a very daemon engine heavy list and I played deathwing, just didn't feel like I could get enough high strength on the table to do anything to that army. I dunno, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but it feels like with this army if the dice are against you you are well and truly boned more so than my orks were.
Gharron wrote: I've played a few games with the new codex. I'm feeling...underwhelmed with it. I know we have units everyone just goes nuts over, heldrakes oblits what have you. Maybe the way I'm playing the army isn't correct for the units I have?
I'm running units of 20 marines with a daemon prince with a squad of 20 cultists some termis some bikes and obliterators. I'm only playing at 1500 max atm, and I know that's a lower points value than 2k and 2k is where everything ramps up. But I feel like the units themselves are underwhelming. My last game I ran 2 heldrakes a maulerfiend 2 units of 2 obliterators a nurgle lord some rhinos and a bunch of plague marines. Had my dice almost not been perfect on both sides of offense and defense the tau player could have tabled me easily. Only a dirge caster saved me, which was poor target choice by my opponent. If I wouldn't have gotten that 1 5 point upgrade he would have either overwatched or intercepted every unit of termis oblits or even my heldrakes that came in. I never feel like I have a proper unit for the situation I'm in when every unit is designed to be a swiss army knife or that's the idea of the army. I feel like we're the orks of the MEQ world, we have everything but it only works because we're 10,000 yrs old and mad about it.
Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete? I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?
Just because you lost a challenge/game doesn't mean the list/codex was bad... that's why there's dice in this game after all.
I run the following at 1500 for club play... its not optimized, yet still wrecks face and wins repeatedly
Huron
Level 3 Sorcerer with Familiar, Meltabombs (Telepathy)
24 Slaanesh Cultists with Flamers and 8 or so autoguns
10 Cultists with Heavy stubber and 5 autoguns
x2 Baledrakes
5 Tzeentch Terminators with a Landraider (dozer and combimelta)
1 Mutilator (stupid unit, but usually denies an objective behind the quad while I go take the others)
ADL Quad
Giggles and wins all the time... depending on my infiltrate rolls and whether I'm going first or not, Terminators, Cultist mob, etc can be coming from who knows where.
I've only used this 4 times, but all ended with a tabled opponent before the game ended on turns.
In my 2.5k games (normal for my club), I've ran BMace DP, JuggerLords with Spawn (awesome pairing), havoc campers, Defilers with an ADL, melta or PG raptors, all to great effect. There's some good lists in their son. 39 games without a loss against over 20 different opponents who weren't newbs can't be that bad of a book (played against every dex but the new Eldar and new Daemons).
I honestly feel like it has power and I see that, but it seems like if you're not playing everything nurgle or even marked with it you're handicapping yourself.
Well, at least you realize this now. There is a very good reason why I called this abomination of a book "codex: nurgle or go home" because nurgle will almost always be the best mark. At least you're not using 1k sons!
Hopefully forgeworld will release the forgeworld supplement with iron warriors so you can play something inspired instead of a hack job by a hack writer.
In the meantime just spam heldrakes and plague marines and you should be fine!
No Chaos Codex will likely ever again rivel the simple brilliance of the 4.0 Codex. 6th edition is clearly a more cluttered throwback to the atrocious earlier Chaos books.
That said, it does the "basic" 40K game (5 objective missions out of six) rather well by giving you cheap stuff to sit on your own (yes, Nurgle is the easy-choice to toughen up Cultists, but they are good without Nurgle too) and clear the troops from your opponents objectives (Heldrake, famously)
It's a Kelly Codex, so the internal balance is atrocious. It's not quite as bad as Space Wolves or Dark Eldar though, and the ability to take allies kinda helps hide Kelly's shortcomings as a Codex writer.
Gharron wrote: I've played a few games with the new codex. I'm feeling...underwhelmed with it. I know we have units everyone just goes nuts over, heldrakes oblits what have you. Maybe the way I'm playing the army isn't correct for the units I have?
I'm running units of 20 marines with a daemon prince with a squad of 20 cultists some termis some bikes and obliterators. I'm only playing at 1500 max atm, and I know that's a lower points value than 2k and 2k is where everything ramps up. But I feel like the units themselves are underwhelming. My last game I ran 2 heldrakes a maulerfiend 2 units of 2 obliterators a nurgle lord some rhinos and a bunch of plague marines. Had my dice almost not been perfect on both sides of offense and defense the tau player could have tabled me easily. Only a dirge caster saved me, which was poor target choice by my opponent. If I wouldn't have gotten that 1 5 point upgrade he would have either overwatched or intercepted every unit of termis oblits or even my heldrakes that came in. I never feel like I have a proper unit for the situation I'm in when every unit is designed to be a swiss army knife or that's the idea of the army. I feel like we're the orks of the MEQ world, we have everything but it only works because we're 10,000 yrs old and mad about it.
Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete? I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?
Just because you lost a challenge/game doesn't mean the list/codex was bad... that's why there's dice in this game after all.
I run the following at 1500 for club play... its not optimized, yet still wrecks face and wins repeatedly
Huron
Level 3 Sorcerer with Familiar, Meltabombs (Telepathy)
24 Slaanesh Cultists with Flamers and 8 or so autoguns
10 Cultists with Heavy stubber and 5 autoguns
x2 Baledrakes
5 Tzeentch Terminators with a Landraider (dozer and combimelta)
1 Mutilator (stupid unit, but usually denies an objective behind the quad while I go take the others)
ADL Quad
Giggles and wins all the time... depending on my infiltrate rolls and whether I'm going first or not, Terminators, Cultist mob, etc can be coming from who knows where.
I've only used this 4 times, but all ended with a tabled opponent before the game ended on turns.
In my 2.5k games (normal for my club), I've ran BMace DP, JuggerLords with Spawn (awesome pairing), havoc campers, Defilers with an ADL, melta or PG raptors, all to great effect. There's some good lists in their son. 39 games without a loss against over 20 different opponents who weren't newbs can't be that bad of a book (played against every dex but the new Eldar and new Daemons).
I mean, I see that the list works and I get it, but it just seems like every other army has the ability to build a certain list for a certain playstyle and it seems...difficult to find an all comers balance. I feel like if I feel a ton of this I'm going to run into an army that uses a ton of that and then it's an uphill battle and god help you if the dice go badly. I'm not trying to gripe, just say I'm...confuzzled as to where the ideas for this army came from...
I have really been enjoying the New Chaos Book, and I don't even use Nurgle or Heldrakes. I focus mainly on Slaanesh, and theme my list around that. I will say that I play Eldar when I want to be more competitive (even before the update ), and I also am currently boycotting Heldrakes because I believe that they are stupid and over centralizing. Even still I usually win with my CSM although its often a close affair.
if you are curious, my 1850 list usually looks like this. Its not tournament worthy or anything, but its a very fun list that plays pretty well against most opponents. It won't do well vs double or tripple drake, but whatever. Thats not why I built this army, I built this army because honestly its the most fun I've had playing warhammer since I first started.
I have had a lot of fun every time I use this list, and it generally punches through most opponents I face. I really like focusing on having multiple dispersed threats. And generally I have been happy with all of my individual units. Except the Mutilator, but I keep him around because he is hilarious.
Well, at least you realize this now. There is a very good reason why I called this abomination of a book "codex: nurgle or go home" because nurgle will almost always be the best mark. At least you're not using 1k sons!
You're talking about the previous codex, right? Noise Marines are excellent, and the Slaanesh psykers/Lords are pretty solid. Khorne Berserkers aren't terrible, but their chainaxes are overpriced. Thousand Sons are better than they used to be, but that's not saying a whole hell of a lot.
And "abomination" is an awful strong word for a codex that's slightly lower on the power scale than you were hoping and doesn't have quite the options you want. It's not perfect, but you can do a lot of different things with it.
Zweischneid wrote: No Chaos Codex will likely ever again rivel the simple brilliance of the 4.0 Codex. 6th edition is clearly a more cluttered throwback to the atrocious earlier Chaos books.
That said, it does the "basic" 40K game (5 objective missions out of six) rather well by giving you cheap stuff to sit on your own (yes, Nurgle is the easy-choice to toughen up Cultists, but they are good without Nurgle too) and clear the troops from your opponents objectives (Heldrake, famously)
It's a Kelly Codex, so the internal balance is atrocious. It's not quite as bad as Space Wolves or Dark Eldar though, and the ability to take allies kinda helps hide Kelly's shortcomings as a Codex writer.
That horrid 4.0 dex should disappear, along with gav thorpes name from Chaos. Those 4.0 Dex's were a blight on the game itself.
It should return to earlier chaos, where at least we didn't look as similar as Space Marines! Heck, I'd rather it return to the Original 3.0 (not 3.5) Codex then retain any of Gav Thorpes misgivings.
I wouldn't say that it is neccessarily underwhelming or a weak force. The problem is there only seem to be a few really viable army list options for us to take. There are a lot of rubbish options in the book that only the fluffiest of lists could justify taking.
You're talking about the previous codex, right? Noise Marines are excellent, and the Slaanesh psykers/Lords are pretty solid. Khorne Berserkers aren't terrible, but their chainaxes are overpriced. Thousand Sons are better than they used to be, but that's not saying a whole hell of a lot.
And "abomination" is an awful strong word for a codex that's slightly lower on the power scale than you were hoping and doesn't have quite the options you want. It's not perfect, but you can do a lot of different things with it.
He is talking about Codex: Chaos Space Marines (not an abomination, but not a satisfying army either).
You are talking about Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes (this thing is awesome, though boring).
In other words: after a certain amount of Baledrakes and Nurgle stuff, even Thousand Sons are decent .
Well, at least you realize this now. There is a very good reason why I called this abomination of a book "codex: nurgle or go home" because nurgle will almost always be the best mark. At least you're not using 1k sons!
You're talking about the previous codex, right? Noise Marines are excellent, and the Slaanesh psykers/Lords are pretty solid. Khorne Berserkers aren't terrible, but their chainaxes are overpriced. Thousand Sons are better than they used to be, but that's not saying a whole hell of a lot.
Spoken like somebody who hasn't used khorne berserkers or attempted to use a khorne army. And thousand sons are worse now that their overpriced sorcerer is stuck with the worst psychic lore in the game.
And "abomination" is an awful strong word for a codex that's slightly lower on the power scale than you were hoping and doesn't have quite the options you want. It's not perfect, but you can do a lot of different things with it.
Ah this is my favorite part; where people assume what I want. I play casually and khorne is garbage and unfun even then. It's probably the least enjoyable book I've played and that's saying a lot. There's a good reason why you only ever see nurgle and the occasional slaanesh army.
And I'd never thought I would say this but I agree with Zwei about phail being a crap author. Though the 4 th edition book was even worse and he basically copypasted a bunch of units over from it.
I had similar issues. I played chaos space marines for 2 years, and won 5 games. In the space of 3 months playing with wytch heavy rush based dark eldar army - I am yet to lose a game. This might just be down to the DE suiting my play style though, as I know loads of players who have no issue with Chaos
The book has some very strong options, but not an overly large number, and it rapidly drops off into proof that GW doesn't actually try to sell every new model with a codex release (poor mutilators). FA and HS are reasonably populated, but Elites suffer badly. I think this is really the core of the complaint, though. For a book that ostensibly covers the infinite diversity of Chaos, your competitive lists largely come down to 'Nurgle-oriented Renegades' and 'Death Guard that absorbed a few other elements.' All of the eggs are in the Plague Marine and Heldrake basket.
The Noise Marine list kind of needs the sorcerer to be really good, but then you're buying two HQs to make them score. Plus they get hilariously short-ranged with sonic weapons.
Berzerkers don't have a cost-efficient way to quickly cross the board and get stuck in, and punching people is all they're any good at.
I did a ton of blogging on the new Chaos codex, specifically the Cults. After doing those games and that work, i would say Chaos is definitely a pretty good codex.
Now you dont just show up and win because: codex. that doesn't happen despite all the rumors. EVERY codex requires YOU to be good.
So dont blame the codex. Look to what else might have contributed to losses. imbalanced lists are almost always what I see as the problem. Too heavy into one thing and then they hit an opponent who simply doesn't get hurt as bad by it. Net result: uphill battle.
They will most likely release some expansion codexes now that Iyanden is doing well.
I really think that was the plan, build a basic flexible codex so that later they can release some supplemental codexes. Most likely we will see the big 4 IE
1000 Sons
World Eaters
DeathGuard
Emperors Children
although personally I would prefer
Iron Warriors
Night Lords
Word Bearers
and of course I would mark out for
Sons of Malice
Red Corsairs
I hope they don't just do the typical GW of "meh screw it let Forgeworld do it", not that I don't like Forgeworld but the Meta around me does not seem to appreciate it
I really think that was the plan, build a basic flexible codex so that later they can release some supplemental codexes. Most likely we will see the big 4 IE
1000 Sons
World Eaters
DeathGuard
Emperors Children
Unless Thousand sons gets some drastic point changes, it's not gonna be good even with a few new rules.
World Eaters also needs a cheaper assault vehicle.
I really think that was the plan, build a basic flexible codex so that later they can release some supplemental codexes. Most likely we will see the big 4 IE
1000 Sons
World Eaters
DeathGuard
Emperors Children
Unless Thousand sons gets some drastic point changes, it's not gonna be good even with a few new rules.
World Eaters also needs a cheaper assault vehicle.
I thought beserkers were going to have a cool rule that they treat all vehicles as assault vehicles.
I know I may get some flak for this but Matt Ward may butcher all of your favorite fluff but he sure knows how to make the game fun with interesting rules. Kelly for fluff, Ward for gameplay. Every Dex please.
I know it's been said, even I said it. But man if you're not playing nurlge you're doing it wrong. Khorne is over priced and with sixth's assault changes you never really know what you're going to get with them. I had orks last year for 5th ended up with more boys than I could put on the table but they were all sluggas. 6th comes and I have to completely drop that list. To much shooting not enough boys making it across the table. It feels like that with this codex. You have to kite out most combats because we just don't have anything to stand up in combat. Then, when you end up playing a shooting heavy army (guard or tau) you really end up in a bad way because you have nothing combat oriented. I'm not really sure where I can go with this army lol I'm trying to think of everything I can but heldrakes and plague marines are just to good to not have (because everything else is so lackluster) granted I haven't tried noise marines but I know short range and price...kind of a big thing...
I really think that was the plan, build a basic flexible codex so that later they can release some supplemental codexes. Most likely we will see the big 4 IE
1000 Sons
World Eaters
DeathGuard
Emperors Children
Unless Thousand sons gets some drastic point changes, it's not gonna be good even with a few new rules.
World Eaters also needs a cheaper assault vehicle.
I thought beserkers were going to have a cool rule that they treat all vehicles as assault vehicles.
I know I may get some flak for this but Matt Ward may butcher all of your favorite fluff but he sure knows how to make the game fun with interesting rules. Kelly for fluff, Ward for gameplay. Every Dex please.
Nurgleis pretty good. It was definitely AWESOME in the former codex in 6E, because of the ally rules, and continues to be beefy in 6E with a new codex, really. Tallymaster thing was ridonculous before...
2x210 wrote: They will most likely release some expansion codexes now that Iyanden is doing well.
Unlikely. Chaos missed the boat this edition. Maybe they'll get expansions next edition if GW is still doing them at that point, but the pendulum swings fast...
I love my Khorne Lord on Juggernaut. There's nothing more fun than smashing into units with silly amounts of attacks and ripping them to shreds. I definitely think the CSM codex got better; just look at your options for cheap Chaos Marines; you can field a lot of bodies if you want, with the options for cc weapons, or swapping out Bolters even (if you want). That's pretty epic in the way of customizabiliy.
Im loving the noise marines, assaulting them is a bad bad idea, 3 shots per sonic weapon, 2 from the blast master, D3 from the Doom Siren, then swinging at I5. nurgle for your bigger units (oblits) Tzeench for you DP
but yes poor 1ksons :( they need a supplement then i will be truly happy...
As much as I've been successful with my khorne chaos, I definitely wish my berserkers got more bang for their buck. If chainaxes dropped by a point i'd be happy. If they stayed at current, but gave an extra attack I'd be giddy.
But from a more semi-constructive sense, if apostles dropped in points by 10-15, warpsmiths gest the DA techmarine treatment, and both get options for bike or jump pack, the HQ section would be largely shored up.
The cost on icons needs to go down SIGNIFICANTLY. Effectively paying 3ppm for fearless that can be sniped, while loyalists get ATSKNF for less?
Thousand sons with a sorc should lose slow & purposeful, and allow said sorc to pick tzeench OR a rulebook power.
Plagues are fine. Noise are fine. CSM are largely fine, though allowing them to be 1 special/5, 1 heavy/10 would be nice.
A quick easy fix for helbrutes is to put a little not at the end of the crazed results. for the "stay still and shoot", not that if it has no ranged weapons, aside from ones built into PF, it does the fleet/rage/no shooty version, and vice versa. No PF? then no ROAR RUN UP AND HIT IT! mode, just dakkadakkadakka.
And lastly, even though every single version that I've come up with has been put off as "OMG UEBER OP" by anyone who has read them, cult terminators need to be a thing. Like, now...ish
PS Can tyranids have their 5-6 missing models soon? please? pretty please??.. .... ........
Hardly underwhelming. Maybe compared to shiny new Tau or Eldar they seem less shiny, but they're still a great codex.
There are so many options (Barring a few atrocious ones) and allow you a lot of flexibility. I couldn't have asked for more from a codex. It has enough competitive and interesting units to keep me trying new combinations til the next one comes out. You just gotta get a handle on it. Terminators, Bikers, Huron, Spawn, Juggerlords, Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Cult Troops. There's a plethora of stuff. Use it all before you go out and say the codex is underwhelming.
gpfunk wrote: Hardly underwhelming. Maybe compared to shiny new Tau or Eldar they seem less shiny, but they're still a great codex.
There are so many options (Barring a few atrocious ones) and allow you a lot of flexibility. I couldn't have asked for more from a codex. It has enough competitive and interesting units to keep me trying new combinations til the next one comes out. You just gotta get a handle on it. Terminators, Bikers, Huron, Spawn, Juggerlords, Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Cult Troops. There's a plethora of stuff. Use it all before you go out and say the codex is underwhelming.
Cult troops
Nurgle and Slaanesh are the only choice, and even then Nurgle is Better
JuggerLord
A Specific god choice.
Terminators
I guess if you enjoy termi-cide, sure.
Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators,
Maulerfiends will not be used, you desperately need the range unless your playing a specific list type, not to mention rather vulnerable.
That list is far smaller then the entire book as well, a small list out of entire sections.
Who said anything about suicide terminators? Put them in a land raider, you dont have to just herp derp drop three with combi meltas. Try running 8 or so barebones as backup dancers for Typhus and march him across the board, Or use them to scour a flank, you just dont have to throw a minimum amount at someone.
He listed several options, the maulerfiend in specific is cheap as crap for what it does and will soak some firepower.. Oblits and havocs are still two of the best HS options amongst all MEQ units.
Over and over again its Chaos players wanting every option to be tourney smashing forgetting no book ever has done this, even the vaunted 3.5 abomination that should of never seen the light of day how unbalanced it was.
Not every book will have every option win, even in the new books most of them get lost in the shuffle. Every book has the one or two options a slot which are just 'better'. The competitive Tau player will never see skyrays, vespids or pirahnas unless they just really work at it (much like a Khorne Berzerker player or 1k son player). Likewise Eldar players wanting to win will never touch storm guardians or half of the aspects.
Who said anything about suicide terminators? Put them in a land raider, you dont have to just herp derp drop three with combi meltas. Try running 8 or so barebones as backup dancers for Typhus and march him across the board, Or use them to scour a flank, you just dont have to throw a minimum amount at someone.
I used Combi-Plasma myself, works effectively, also that idea sounds absolutely horrible to do in that you are essentially asking the enemy to direct their firepower at this squad, and against Eldar, or Tau, or anyone who would just laugh at this configuration is asking for death.
He listed several options, the maulerfiend in specific is cheap as crap for what it does and will soak some firepower..
In a very contested slot, it won't see the light of day in most general lists.
Oblits and havocs are still two of the best HS options amongst all MEQ units.
Wouldn't say all MEQ, but they do their work very fine.
Over and over again its Chaos players wanting every option to be tourney smashing forgetting no book ever has done this, even the vaunted 3.5 abomination that should of never seen the light of day how unbalanced it was.
Not asking for this, asking for things to be useful at the least, and at the least the 3.5 was the most customizable of all the books and gave decent light towards all options, imbalanced as it was, nor is any chaos players asking to be Top Tier, most of us just want our god specific/unspecific options to be useful. Not shoveled off because Kelly has no idea how to balance a book without swinging about half towards the "Never use list" and including his "Must have!" options.
The juggerlord is a god-specific choice. So? It's still part of the codex.
Otherwise, the only reason CSM looks weak is because you're dismissing their best units with nothing but the power of assertion (Maulerfiends are bad because you'll never see them played?). If you have a bad attitude about them, of course they're going to look bad.
Chosen- Lost the infiltrate ability - the only reason to take them
Mutilators- Can I have more Slow & Purposful CC Units so I can have a totally useless army?
Possessed - Random high priced units can I have more?
Berzerkers - OOOH can I have some dedicated CC troops at 2 a pop, lose an attack vs last edition, get edition screwed as far as CC, and throw me a bone by an overpriced chain axe that only slaughters tau and scouts that I already wipe the floor with.
1000 Sons - High priced? Check Worthless in HTH? Check.
AP 3 weapons are the one bone.
Talons - High priced only effect AC3. Good.
Fiends - good job making them vehicles and then hand evey other codex MCs.
Defilers - High priced. More worthless than a soulgrinder (and higher priced) loses out to oblits, havocs and predators
Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.
For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.
Maulerfiends are far from a let down.
And warp talons also have demon, which means they're a 3+ 5++, and fear won't ALWAYS fail. They can't tackle every target in the game, but that doesn't make them straight-away worthless. Meanwhile, if you can't figure out how a model with a 3+ 4++ with Ap3 small arms can be useful, then you're lacking creativity.
Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.
I like how people are suggesting all these nifty units like warp talons and thousand sons.
At the end of the day you're dropping ~30 points into a T4 3+ save. Tsons are slow and encumbered by a worthless sorceror (god of magic has the worst spells lolololol). Allaros thinks I'm uncreative because I don't want to plod my SnP points sink upfield while they get shredded by weight of fire and cost twice as much as the standard marines, while taking up an elite choice. Oh yeah, I can always take a Tzeench HQ... LOL. I suppose creative players would be able to find a plethora of other uses for such a dynamic unit.
Warp talons are alright but Raptors are cheaper and frankly, more likely to actually do something. WT can appear, blind a unit, then stand around to get shot to pieces @ 30ppm.
The new fiends are alright, but weren't really needed. The Defiler is basically both fiends in one model, with better guns, more HP, and only 20pts more than a vanilla Forgefiend.
Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.
Being something like 10 and 1 playing CSM added to the fact I refuse to own a heldrake. I bow to your assessment.
The units I listed as disappointments are just that. Most are still situationally useable but they all lose out to more cost effective units.
For example I can find uses for warp talons and raptors but terminators, heldrakes and bikers give me more bang for the buck.
1000 sons and berzerkers in a vacuum aren't too bad but they severely limit flexibility compared to EC and PM. If I can live without fearless, CSMs are pretty good for their cost. Add to that I have to use an HQ slot to make them troops and sorry never.
Ailaros wrote: Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.
For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.
Maulerfiends are far from a let down.
And warp talons also have demon, which means they're a 3+ 5++, and fear won't ALWAYS fail. They can't tackle every target in the game, but that doesn't make them straight-away worthless. Meanwhile, if you can't figure out how a model with a 3+ 4++ with Ap3 small arms can be useful, then you're lacking creativity.
Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.
Sure, they can be useful..In very specific situations, and not exactly close to being good at it for various reasons, and are outshone by far more basic, reliable things.
Thousand Sons: Hindered because of a 50+ point tax in the sorcerer, not to mention the CSM lore of tzeentch isn't that good for it and so the sorcerer isn't that great, not to mention slow and purposeful means they can't even defend themselves with overwatch should they move, not to mention they do not increase the power of their unit despite costing more then a standard marine, and dies like a standard marine.
Warp Talons: Many conflicting rules not to mention weaknesses. Blind if they land nearby, but they have no control over scatter, not to mention blind being a test within a short (6") range that can be shrugged off by high I units and is completely useless against other armies. They are easily shot at targets as they move forward on the field, and their 5++ survival isn't exactly critical when they die to small arms fire just as easily as marines.
Maulerfiends: Hindered by being an AV12 walker, this thing can have the HP stripped from it before it reaches combat, and in most cases will have to deal with krak grenades up close and personal stripping it away.
Which is actually what I would expect from anyone claiming that a codex only has a few good units.
I'm not exactly sure you've played CSM aside from seeing things in a vacuum.
Ailaros wrote:Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.
For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.
Sure, they can be useful..In very specific situations, and not exactly close to being good at it for various reasons, and are outshone by far more basic, reliable things.
What basic things do what a maulerfiend does better than a maulerfiend?
I mean, the last game I watched, I saw a maulerfiend take down a land raider with average rolling in a single charge, and then kill two of the terminators that came after it in close combat. It doubled its points cost in about 30 seconds. Given that it can reliably do this kind of damage to non-THSS terminators and vechicles of all kinds but fliers, and against monstrous creatures that don't have a lot of attacks in CC, it hardly seems like that specific of a situation that it's useful in.
Furthermore, again, what "basic units" do this kind of work for cheaper and more reliably?
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Thousand Sons: Hindered because of a 50+ point tax in the sorcerer, not to mention the CSM lore of tzeentch isn't that good for it and so the sorcerer isn't that great, not to mention slow and purposeful means they can't even defend themselves with overwatch should they move, not to mention they do not increase the power of their unit despite costing more then a standard marine, and dies like a standard marine.
If by "sorcerer tax", you mean "gets a psyker in every squad", then I guess it's a tax... but not a bad one.
And I'd like to see 1ksons die like "standard marines" against baleflamers or vindicator cannons or plasma spam. Regular marines die instantly in close combat, while 1ksons have just short of stormshield durability in a squad that contains a force weapon. 1ksons only look bad if you ignore literally everything they have and only concentrate on the fact that they have a 3+ save. If you do that, you're missing the point of 1ksons, not that 1ksons are bad.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Warp Talons: Many conflicting rules not to mention weaknesses. Blind if they land nearby, but they have no control over scatter, not to mention blind being a test within a short (6") range that can be shrugged off by high I units and is completely useless against other armies. They are easily shot at targets as they move forward on the field, and their 5++ survival isn't exactly critical when they die to small arms fire just as easily as marines.
Once again, the fact that you don't seem to appreciate what an invul save is isn't a failure of the unit, it's a failure of perspective. I'd love it if all of my units came with a free 5+ cover save that always worked, even in close combat.
And yeah, warp talons aren't the best thing in the codex, especially if you follow the codex's terrible advice of using them as a deepstrike unit. As a unit that has a 24" threat range with a huge pile of rerollable Ap3 attacks, though, they can make a good counterattack unit.
Also, I don't get how, on the one hand, you're saying that an invul save is bad because they die like normal marines, and then turn around and say that Ap3 weapons are bad, despite the fact that they ignore marine armor saves - something which invul saves are patently useful against. Either lightning claws are good, and so must be invul saves, or lightning claws are bad, and so must be Sv3+.
We're not talking about guardsmen or cultists here.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Maulerfiends: Hindered by being an AV12 walker, this thing can have the HP stripped from it before it reaches combat, and in most cases will have to deal with krak grenades up close and personal stripping it away.
It can have AP stripped, but it also has a 5++, can make use of cover without being hindered by it in the movement phase, only has to weather a single turn of fire before it gets its job done, and can HEAL losses to its hull points. Hardly sounds hindered to me.
And krak grenades? 10 WS4 models armed with krak grenades causes .73 HP in close combat per turn, which the maulerfiend has a 1/3ds chance to heal for a total of about .5 HP lost per round of combat. That's 6 rounds of combat that the marines in question have to survive against powerfist and free meltagun attacks. Plus, those marines cost way more than the maulerfiend...
ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'm not exactly sure you've played CSM aside from seeing things in a vacuum.
Ad Hominem and Ad Auctoritatem never flatter anybody's arguments.
It could be that I'm biased against them, because in most cases what I'm fighting is mostly Eldar, IG, and Tau, generally things with plenty of S8+ shooting, it other meta's they might be successful for maulerfiends, but seeing it splattered apart because of massive IG fire isn't exactly conclusive to my thoughts on it.
As for Thousand sons, you get an ineffective psyker, you can luck out and get bolt of change, but the primaris and it's 1 are a number to deal with, not to mention being slow, easily killed marines. Is AP3 good? Sure, but at the same time you don't see people clamoring to take Stormtroopers because of it. And baleflamers aren't a threat to Thousand sons? Probably not, but yet they'll still die to mass fire from everything else, while being unable to get in range to fire their weapons.
Melissia wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marine players have ever been satisfied with their current codex, even less than Sisters players have been.
I think I'm still a bit bitter since my Sonic Choir got entirely invalidated by the 4th edition dex. Hoping for a return to it with a Slaanesh Supplement so I can get Blastmasters on my Helbrutes again, as well as my Havocs and Preds.
Generally the Chaos Codex tends to favor specific things now, 4th had Plague Marines and Lash princes, and 6th now has Heldrakes, Plague marines, and plague cultists...Really a favor for nurgle seems to be the theme, with some slightly good Slaanesh things. (Cheap Noise marines! Which is actually pretty decent and good )
Ailaros wrote:Maulerfiends are immune to S3-5 weapons, and get a 5++ and it will not die against everything else, and they ignore terrain and move like cavalry, so they're guaranteed at least two-turn charge (better if your opponent approaches you) with something that's likely to get at least one free meltagun hit while it's causing instant death with powerfists and not caring that much about anything short of chainfists and meltabombs in close combat.
For 125 points. It's not going to be difficult for that thing to get its points back, and, charging forward with a lot of other stuff, it has great target saturation.
Sure, they can be useful..In very specific situations, and not exactly close to being good at it for various reasons, and are outshone by far more basic, reliable things.
What basic things do what a maulerfiend does better than a maulerfiend?
I mean, the last game I watched, I saw a maulerfiend take down a land raider with average rolling in a single charge, and then kill two of the terminators that came after it in close combat. It doubled its points cost in about 30 seconds. Given that it can reliably do this kind of damage to non-THSS terminators and vechicles of all kinds but fliers, and against monstrous creatures that don't have a lot of attacks in CC, it hardly seems like that specific of a situation that it's useful in.
What is an "anecdote" for $200, Alex. My first game, I blew up a Maulerfiend with an Lascannon from a havoc, quadrupling its points in 10 seconds. Therefore Maulerfiends are bad.
And I'd like to see 1ksons die like "standard marines" against baleflamers or vindicator cannons or plasma spam. Regular marines die instantly in close combat, while 1ksons have just short of stormshield durability in a squad that contains a force weapon. 1ksons only look bad if you ignore literally everything they have and only concentrate on the fact that they have a 3+ save. If you do that, you're missing the point of 1ksons, not that 1ksons are bad.
They die like standard Marines to bolters, lasguns, all of the basic weapons of every faction. Their worst matchups by far are horde armies and mech. They're only good against Marines out in the open and that's fairly rare.
And yeah, warp talons aren't the best thing in the codex, especially if you follow the codex's terrible advice of using them as a deepstrike unit. As a unit that has a 24" threat range with a huge pile of rerollable Ap3 attacks, though, they can make a good counterattack unit.
Also, I don't get how, on the one hand, you're saying that an invul save is bad because they die like normal marines, and then turn around and say that Ap3 weapons are bad, despite the fact that they ignore marine armor saves - something which invul saves are patently useful against. Either lightning claws are good, and so must be invul saves, or lightning claws are bad, and so must be Sv3+.
We're not talking about guardsmen or cultists here.
Really? A 160 point counter-attack unit? And that's with only 5 talons base. They're even worse against basic weapons than Thousand Sons are and that's saying something. Not to mention that their upgrades are very expensive and you now have guys that are more expensive than Terminators and significantly less durable.
It can have AP stripped, but it also has a 5++, can make use of cover without being hindered by it in the movement phase, only has to weather a single turn of fire before it gets its job done, and can HEAL losses to its hull points. Hardly sounds hindered to me.
And krak grenades? 10 WS4 models armed with krak grenades causes .73 HP in close combat per turn, which the maulerfiend has a 1/3ds chance to heal for a total of about .5 HP lost per round of combat. That's 6 rounds of combat that the marines in question have to survive against powerfist and free meltagun attacks. Plus, those marines cost way more than the maulerfiend...
The Maulerfiend is pretty big, getting cover for it won't really be all that easy. You also seem to be overestimating an AV12 vehicle with a 5+ invulnerable save.
Melissia wrote: I don't think Chaos Space Marine players have ever been satisfied with their current codex, even less than Sisters players have been.
I feel that a lot of players were satisfied with the older codices. The big problem is that Chaos is so all-encompassing and has so much written about it that people expect a lot more. Which is fine. I refuse to purchase anything Chaos-related from Gee-dubs after they released this book. It has some good parts but ultimately it's just, as Vaktathi said, a White Dwarf update to the 4th edition codex.
A general feeling about the book is that it's underwhelming. It's not incapable, but it feels like it's just missing..something on the table. Additionally, in terms of fluff/flexibility/etc, it still is only marginally better than the utter failure of the last book. "Missed opportunity" is something you hear a lot.
You can definitely win some games with it, but much of the book doesn't see the table for a reason, and it largely feels like a White Dwarf addendum to the previous book, with the core army still really heavily designed around a 4th edition mindset.
And I'd like to see 1ksons die like "standard marines" against baleflamers or vindicator cannons or plasma spam. Regular marines die instantly in close combat, while 1ksons have just short of stormshield durability in a squad that contains a force weapon. 1ksons only look bad if you ignore literally everything they have and only concentrate on the fact that they have a 3+ save. If you do that, you're missing the point of 1ksons, not that 1ksons are bad.
See, now you're ignoring what they don't have, and focusing on what they do have. Thing is, why waste your vindi/baleflamer on a target like Tsons when you can fry the rest of the army and leave the footslogging Tsons to get hosed by small arms.
What Tsons have: Decent bolters, a psyker with a lackluster discipline, a forceweapon (don't cast if you plan on using it though). 5++ save. 76% more expensive than standard CSM. Unlike standard CSM they don't take special/heavy weapons, have probably the worst icon available to them, take up an elite slot (unless you waste your HQ slot taking a Tzeench sorc) can't run, can't sweep, can't overwatch after moving.
Seems to me the 'point' of Tsons is to get the codex up to the required ~110 pages.
It seems so many people missed it they're sitting on store shelves
Seriously though, Thousand Sons can hardly be seen as a decent unit. While the invul save and AP3 bolters are nice, massed AP3 is easier obtained and better delivered by other units, while against the majority of attacks directed at them, they still die like normal marines, and normal marines will live just as long against most attacks if you stick 'em in cover, or nearly so.
There's a reason you don't see them in competitive army lists. It's not that people "missed the point" or that there's some mysterious "Diamond in the Rough" aspect to them, no, they're just plain too expensive and their primary role is better achieved by other units and typically at a lower price point.
It's a solid little book. It can even be powerful if you focus solely on the cheap/powerful stuff (Helldrakes, bikes, plague marines, nurgle oblits, autocannon havocs, spawn and FNP slaanesh troops).
The main thing is that it leaves so many iconic units out in the cold that many people can't find a good fluffy/competitive balance. Want to play Thousand Sons? You're boned. World Eaters? Boned. Night Lords? So boned. Iron Warriors? Maybe not boned, but decidedly underwhelming.
Really the codex isn't bad it's just not good either. Chaos players are still spoiled from all the diversity and love we got back in 3rd (God I miss my coked out lords and sonic termies) and add in the fact all the cool new rules and units in the last 3 codexes while we got some pretty lame ones by comparison (Zoids, derpadactyle, raptors with lightning claws... Woo... Hoo). So ya the codex can be competitive, ya most if the units are good/useable, but over all its just bland an mediocre IMO. Not enough changed from 4th to third, psychic powers blow, special rules are fun but not competitive, new units are mediocre, add it all together and it's a meh dex.
I find it to have quite a few options, but I'm coming from orks, so take that for what it's worth.
I play Slaanesh, with absolutely nothing from the "ONLY UNITS TO USE1!!" list (mostly just outfitted marines, Havoks and Lord with SoS) and I've been winning consistently, even against long time vets.
Boring advice, but I find it pays to focus on synergy between scoring units, ranged killing, close combat distractions; just picking the most OP units and lumping them together won't get you a fun or winny team.
I've never experienced the older CSM dex's, I don't play fluff armies either. But I can see that this book is very narrow. I play competitive, I play to win. So 50% or more of the book is not useful to me. All the missed opportunities and head scratching on the units make me say "WTF" all the time at the book. Some units are so meta specific they do not make the cut for a list.
I guess I'll just have to use my small handful of units that are good to continue to pwn noobs. Maybe supplements can give it a boost in variety.
Goat wrote: I've never experienced the older CSM dex's, I don't play fluff armies either. But I can see that this book is very narrow. I play competitive, I play to win. So 50% or more of the book is not useful to me. All the missed opportunities and head scratching on the units make me say "WTF" all the time at the book. Some units are so meta specific they do not make the cut for a list.
I guess I'll just have to use my small handful of units that are good to continue to pwn noobs. Maybe supplements can give it a boost in variety.
This! This is EXACLTY how I feel maybe not so much that I have to win but I at least want to put up a fight. Played death wing at 1500 and MAYBE killed 3 termis because everything we have is the janky red headed step child of something else. I feel like we're the orks of the human races. We have a little of everything but its all broken and only works because we make it so. Most of the hq's that HAVE to make a challenge won't win said challenge...its an extreme handicap. I know like orks our stuff is cheaper than the equivalent units but spamming more guys just doesn't sit will with the whole "we are 10k years old but kill 2 guys in our squad and watch us run like guardsman" idea. I mean paying 20+ points to be fearless? Just silly for a guy who's supposed to have fought a million battles and burned worlds...
The book has redeeming qualities but I just don't see where our cc units are and every kind of delivery system for them is a major risk at best which we have to concede some sort of object be it first blood or the move and then the transport gets blown up and our non fearless unit footslogs it for the next three turns hoping to do something worthwhile.
There are so many options (Barring a few atrocious ones) and allow you a lot of flexibility. I couldn't have asked for more from a codex. It has enough competitive and interesting units to keep me trying new combinations til the next one comes out. You just gotta get a handle on it. Terminators, Bikers, Huron, Spawn, Juggerlords, Maulerfiends, Havocs, Obliterators, Cult Troops. There's a plethora of stuff. Use it all before you go out and say the codex is underwhelming.
In fact, it does NOT offer you flexibility. That is an illusion based on seeing all of the potential units in the codex as a whole without trying to place them into a list together. Once you put them in a list you quickly see that the book is fairly points restrictive and tends to either force you to play an army that does one thing very well (but will have several intensely bad, almost auto-lose match-ups), OR to play at a rediculously high points level. At around 2500pts with a double force org it might actually be the strongest book of the new edition, but how often are you going to see that game? The person who mentioned having issues putting together a TAC list is spot on IMO. TAC lists (again, IMO) are tough in general in 6th, but are just that much more difficult with the Chaos dex. It's also not the kind of codex where you can build a list and then tweak with one or two new items or units as you go to really fine tune the list. You generally end up building an army (talking about competitive play here) around one or two gimmicks or special units. Everything else is just a delivery system for said gimmicks, so you can't just tack things on like you might in a Tau or Dark Angel list. If what you had didn't work, there's a really good chance you need to go back to the drawing board.
Even in terms of fluffy play this book falls down for me. I remember the glory days of second edition where I could generally have a really fun, fluffy army without making too many sacrifices. Not so with this book. There are certainly lots of fun bits, but I can't help but notice how much more fun those bits could have been with just a little more work.
I love my Khorne Lord on Juggernaut.
A perfect example of a missed opportunity imo. They moved cult units from troops to elites, then, in order to hamfist them back into being "troops", they re-introduced the "If your warlord has x mark then those cult units count as troops" mechanic. They then went on to make the lords really really good, and the cult troops questionable at best. So there's not nearly as much incentive as there SHOULD be to make them troops with your warlord (Nurgle, as always, being the one possible exception )
I definitely think the CSM codex got better; just look at your options for cheap Chaos Marines; you can field a lot of bodies if you want,
Cheap? You mean exactly like Dark Angels only MORE expensive and not as good? If so, then yes, "cheap".
with the options for cc weapons, or swapping out Bolters even (if you want). That's pretty epic in the way of customizabiliy.
So you can take cc weapons, or not and that's "epic customizability". I would have to again disagree. It's another perfect example of the kind of wtf decision making that defines this codex. "Sweet, we can take cc weapons! Oh wait, cc is terrible in this edition .... and we have no affordable/reliable assault vehicle ... damn" Of course you COULD pay for VotLW. In fact, you may as well since Kelly put in all the hard work of lowering our LD stat just so he could jam that new "option" down our throats in order for us to get back the point he took. you know, the option that makes the CSM better at CC (see previous comment about cc. Do we see a pattern developing?)... ugh
Really though, my biggest issue with this book is that it has absolutely ZERO business being a 6th ed book. It does nothing to take advantage of, riff off of, or even fit in with the 6th ed rule set. In fact, many of the new units we got are actually penalized by the new rule set (see Warp Talons, Mutilators, DA, etc). When you're playing a "brand new codex" that would have fit in perfectly with 4th edition with almost no changes, there is a serious issue imo. It's beyond a study in mediocrity. Is it the worst codex ever? No. But it's also the first CSM codex in 4 editions that has had me shelf my CSM before the edition ended. Tau, DA, and Demons are just so much more fun and offer me more entertaining game play from books that just make so much more sense.
I dont like it. It's just as bad as the last book and just as boring and bland.
All of the new units i think look stupid - dragobots, dinobots and hellbrute. Why couldnt they put in a normal chaos dreadnought too? Hellbrute is derpy.
The book basically forces you to just slap on random marks everywhere even if it doesnt make sense for what you're playing. If you dont take the best mark youre gimping yourself. Why not give a bonus or options for legions that dont use marks?
The marks system REALLY sucks too. I was shocked to see they didnt redo it or change it all. Exact same crap from the last book. Are they that short on creativity it's the best they can come up with?
Atleast put in something for legion specific. Like come on, just a few pages. Give nightlords raptors as troops choices, ironwarriors better tank or whatever, atleast do something!
Once again, the fact that you don't seem to appreciate what an invul save is isn't a failure of the unit, it's a failure of perspective. I'd love it if all of my units came with a free 5+ cover save that always worked, even in close combat.
And yeah, warp talons aren't the best thing in the codex, especially if you follow the codex's terrible advice of using them as a deepstrike unit. As a unit that has a 24" threat range with a huge pile of rerollable Ap3 attacks, though, they can make a good counterattack unit.
Also, I don't get how, on the one hand, you're saying that an invul save is bad because they die like normal marines, and then turn around and say that Ap3 weapons are bad, despite the fact that they ignore marine armor saves - something which invul saves are patently useful against. Either lightning claws are good, and so must be invul saves, or lightning claws are bad, and so must be Sv3+.
We're not talking about guardsmen or cultists here.
Like the man said, those are all fine points when you're looking at them in a vacuum (I have a kit-bashed squad of Khorne marked Warp Talons in my non-competitive World Eaters army), but in reality, you're paying a lot of points for something that's competing for a FOC slot against (arguably) the three best units in the codex in terms of Heldrakes, Nurgle Bikers, and Spawn.
On pure, anecdotal evidence from having used them in many many games I can tell you that the extra abilities you are paying for (like "blind") tend to be useless which makes them of questionable utility in terms of points efficiency. At the end of the day, Warp Talons are a very expensive "new" unit that has a mechanic based on deep striking very close to an enemy unit in order to fire off its special ability and get into cc. All of this in an edition where you cannot charge into cc on the turn you arrive via deep-strike and in a codex that gives them no reliable way to avoid deep-strike scatter/mishap. No thanks.
I agree with the previous posts...... The book is just meh....
Silly rules regarding challenges...
Stupid Dinobots...
Dark Apostle and Warpsmith that should be in Elites...
No option to build the really interesting legions...
Bezerkers are laughable...
Thousand Sons are poop...
Hellbrute??? ITS A DREADNOUGHT - and always will be.
Have to use Abbadon to take chosen as troops (I hate this guy)
No way to do clever things like make Bikes / Raptors / Terminators troops....Unlike Codex Marines / Dark Angels / Blood Angels........ so basically you are fine if you wanna use the false emperors lackeys!
No legion specific stuff - i.e. word bearers, alpha legion, night lords, iron warriors...
Sigh.
I packed my boys away in the KR's and perhaps they will see some love when the next codex comes out....
A missed opportunity to sell a load of models really
Kain wrote: I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.
When will I get them GW?
Stick a mark on them and presto?
The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.
I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?
I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.
I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.
If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.
If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.
I dont need anyone to tell me it's ok to do it....... at the end of the day the codex didn't give me what I wanted.
I could use the Blood Angels as Night Lords for example but I dont want to..... hey presto, move on.
The codex marine has options that made me buy lots of models (Master of Forge with 6 Dreads etc) and this variety keeps it a good book, I think it would have been nice for the Chaos Marine dex to do something similar.
If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.
I dont need anyone to tell me it's ok to do it....... at the end of the day the codex didn't give me what I wanted.
I could use the Blood Angels as Night Lords for example but I dont want to..... hey presto, move on.
The codex marine has options that made me buy lots of models (Master of Forge with 6 Dreads etc) and this keeps it a good book, I think it would have been nice for the Chaos Marine dex to do something similar.
I'm at 4000 points of chaos after trading away another 1200 and I'm not even close to having all the possible units in the codex.
Plus the master of the forge with 6 dreads is an odd example. That's not a particularly good list if you ran all of them at once. You can get sub-optimal lists with tons of models for CSM too.
bogalubov wrote: Plus the master of the forge with 6 dreads is an odd example. That's not a particularly good list if you ran all of them at once. You can get sub-optimal lists with tons of models for CSM too.
Perhaps not everyone really worries how competitive something is and just plays the game with models and builds that they like, I could be wrong though...
Obviously if the builds that you like to use (or would like to use) are not available its fair to say the codex isn't for you......
bogalubov wrote: Plus the master of the forge with 6 dreads is an odd example. That's not a particularly good list if you ran all of them at once. You can get sub-optimal lists with tons of models for CSM too.
Perhaps not everyone really worries how competitive something is and just plays the game with models and builds that they like, I could be wrong though...
Kain wrote: I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.
When will I get them GW?
Stick a mark on them and presto?
So giving my terminators the mark of khorne will give them fearless, furious charge, WS5, rage and counter attack? Or Tzeench giving all of them ap3 bolters and a sorc terminator? Slaneesh give access to sonic blasters/blastmasters/doom sirens? Nurgle gives FNP and poison ccw? damn.. my book must have had plethora of misprints. Perhaps if I send GW's Super Helpful Internet Translator an email, it will show me the way to decode the incorrect information in my codex to use them properly.
And having daemons as 'battle brothers' literally does nothing. Cant have IC's join units from one codex to another thanks to instability, AoE buffs from daemons don't effect CSM. Literally the only thing it does is give you a cheap-ish way for a divination psyker, or some plaguebearers. If you reverse the effect, all you're doing is inviting your CSM marked units to be hit by the random warp storm table which has killed 2/3 of my army on turn 1-2 in the games I've used them in so far.
And on the whole "just use Codex marines instead" comment, whats the point in having the chaos book in the first place if everyone should just use the loyalist book? 'Ohai dudes, I'm tired of not being able to field my Night Lords raptor army, so I'm gonna use the BA dex instead. This makes my 'raptors' cheaper, gives them more options, and the option for psyker dreadnoughts for some reason! Also random super pre-heresy jumpy apothecaries that make them all more terror-y or something... legitimization YAY!!!'
^utter crap^
The mere fact that khorne berserkers cost more than death company, are worse in CC, and dont get FNP/mass PW/dedicated LR/a bajillion pistol options/relentless bolters if they feel like it is quite annoying. for their cost berserkers should be the beat-all-end-all CC murdermachines for MEQ. Nothing from any power armor book should EVER outclass them. Literally the only thing berserkers have over their angry black-armored doppelgangers is the potential to be scoring. woo. hoo. my dudes what want to run up and hit things can hold objectives. suuuuuper....
The thread is about the lack of power that the CSM codex has, so I was addressing the codex from that perspective.
If you don't like chaos marine models that GW made, that's a perfectly fine opinion to have. However, the thread is not about whether CSM models are aesthetically pleasing. It's about whether the CSM codex is underpowered. In that regard I think the codex is perfectly average.
Kain wrote: I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.
When will I get them GW?
Stick a mark on them and presto?
The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.
I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?
I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.
I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.
If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.
Did you ever play 3rd? Or 3.5? Like I said earlier my complain isn't that it's not a competitive book but more the lack of diversity compared to what we had in the past and the more recent codex updates. Slapping a mark on a character is not the same as giving terminators, dreads, or havocs sonic weapons or say inferno bolts. It all just seems bland, psychic powers and army wide abilities aren't very fun or competitive, and independent characters lack customization of other codexes, an IMO I think all the new units (mutilators, Heldrakes, forge/mauler fiends, and Warp talons) are all pretty lame and the models seem silly. Is it negative? Yes. Is it just my opinion? Yes.
I feel however that much of that is propped up by the Heldrake and perhaps a couple other units, while armies built without such units tend to be significantly less capable.
The mere fact that khorne berserkers cost more than death company, are worse in CC, and dont get FNP/mass PW/dedicated LR/a bajillion pistol options/relentless bolters if they feel like it is quite annoying. for their cost berserkers should be the beat-all-end-all CC murdermachines for MEQ. Nothing from any power armor book should EVER outclass them. Literally the only thing berserkers have over their angry black-armored doppelgangers is the potential to be scoring. woo. hoo. my dudes what want to run up and hit things can hold objectives. suuuuuper....
I think comparing units across codexes and expecting a perfect 1:1 comparison is not productive.
A grey hunter is better than a chaos marine, but that's not really relevant. The chaos marine still has a role to play in your army. He's cheap power armor, he scores and he can be customized. The reason why the chaos marine might not be that great is that the chaos codex has access to cultists who for the fraction of the cost can sit on an objective just as well. When evaluating a unit in a codex it's important to ask whether the unit fulfills a role there, not whether some other codex does it better.
Besides, death company is not very good in this edition either.
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Vaktathi wrote: I feel however that much of that is propped up by the Heldrake and perhaps a couple other units, while armies built without such units tend to be significantly less capable.
Couldn't you say that about Necrons with night scythes and annihilation barges? Without those units the codex would not be as strong.
I'm pretty sure the overall theme so far is that aside from a token few units, most things in the latest Chaos Space Marines codex are lack lustre, overpriced, just plain bad or a combination of the three. Is it such a huge thing wanting to have units that are comparable to that others have in terms of cost/benefit of taking the unit? Sure you can take 20 PA bodies per squad. A single shot from a vindicator will see them running.
I, personally, want to at least have the ability to make my berserkers be really good in CC. And I mean really good. The kind of good where if more than 5 make it to your non-th/ss squad, you're in serious trouble, and not just for the first turn of combat. I'd love the option to have berserker terminators. I would love the option to be able to gain some sort of bonus to init/ws/attacks etc in the challenges I am forced to be a part of. I would SUPER love it if my general groups of CSM had all of the benefits of being fearless with none of the drawbacks. I'd love it if any of my units with the fear rule ever got to make use of it. I'd love it if I didn't have to take heldrakes/oblits in half my lists so the part of my army that I actually want to use can do their job ever so slightly more effectively than their loyalist or xenos counterparts. I don't even want all of these things. Just 1 would make me happy. seriously.
Kain wrote: I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.
When will I get them GW?
Stick a mark on them and presto?
The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.
I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?
I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.
I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.
If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.
I want my plague terminators with FNP and poisoned melee attacks, sonic guns, blastmasters, and doom sirens on bikes, Chain axe raptors with FC and fearless, and Inferno heavy bolters with a 4+ invulnerable save and lead around by a sorcerer.
StarHunter25 wrote: I'm pretty sure the overall theme so far is that aside from a token few units, most things in the latest Chaos Space Marines codex are lack lustre, overpriced, just plain bad or a combination of the three. Is it such a huge thing wanting to have units that are comparable to that others have in terms of cost/benefit of taking the unit? Sure you can take 20 PA bodies per squad. A single shot from a vindicator will see them running.
I, personally, want to at least have the ability to make my berserkers be really good in CC. And I mean really good. The kind of good where if more than 5 make it to your non-th/ss squad, you're in serious trouble, and not just for the first turn of combat. I'd love the option to have berserker terminators. I would love the option to be able to gain some sort of bonus to init/ws/attacks etc in the challenges I am forced to be a part of. I would SUPER love it if my general groups of CSM had all of the benefits of being fearless with none of the drawbacks. I'd love it if any of my units with the fear rule ever got to make use of it. I'd love it if I didn't have to take heldrakes/oblits in half my lists so the part of my army that I actually want to use can do their job ever so slightly more effectively than their loyalist or xenos counterparts. I don't even want all of these things. Just 1 would make me happy. seriously.
The heavy support section has only 1 unit that is garbage. The defiler.
The fast attack section also only has 1 unit that is garbage. The warp talons.
The HQ section is also great with a lot of variety and customization and a few good old standby characters.
The elites section has a few whiffs like mutilators and chosen who are geared for close combat but specialize in shooting.
The troops have options as well.
Bezerkers are not very good and cost too much for a unit that you anticipate losing a chunk out of before they hit the enemy. But to be fair, there are few units that do assault well in 6th. My 4 squads of bezerkers certainly weep for that. But that's the way this edition is like and 5th wasn't too different.
Kain wrote: I still want my Cult Terminators, bikes, havocs, and raptors.
When will I get them GW?
Stick a mark on them and presto?
The doom and gloom in this thread is a little much though.
I've had a descent amount of success with the book and there are several types of builds that can be tough. Not every unit is an unstoppable beat stick, but what codex has that?
I think people are also ignoring the realities of the new rules edition as well. Battle brother allies are important now and the chaos marines can bring daemons. The daemon book offers great heavy hitters in HQ, Heavy Support, Fast Attack and Troops. Plague bearers for example cost as much as 20 cultists, but are much better as objective campers.
I think GW has tried to address the issues that people had before with chaos marines just being spiky loyalists. By providing an avenue to bring daemonic allies and chaos engines, they have succeeded in separating the two.
If you want to play with bikers, terminators and assault marines as troops and want to impart that they are evil, why not just play the marine codexes and add some spikes to the guys? Then you get the play style you want and the background you want. It's your hobby, play the game how you want to play and stop waiting for GW to tell you it's okay to do that.
I want my plague terminators with FNP and poisoned melee attacks, sonic guns, blastmasters, and doom sirens on bikes, Chain axe raptors with FC and fearless, and Inferno heavy bolters with a 4+ invulnerable save and lead around by a sorcerer.
When will I get them?
get rid of the lame overpowered dragobot and give them some of that stuff. atleast it sounds interesting.
One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.
Kain wrote: One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.
Only if the SW gets a special character called "The Turkeyborn"
Kain wrote: One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.
Only if the SW gets a special character called "The Turkeyborn"
Kain wrote: One way to take the edge out of Heldrake encounters is to have Skyrim's "the one they fear" play whenever you see one on the tabletop. It may not help, but it'll be amusing.
Only if the SW gets a special character called "The Turkeyborn"
"FUS RO EMPRAH!"
Alternatively "WOLF WOLF WOLF"
"I used to be a guardsman like you, but then I took a splinter to the knee"
Dalymiddleboro wrote: I think the book is awesome. People, stop crying and gobuy some heldrakes and plague marines
See, here's the thing. I want to play iron warriors, I love nurgle I get that in this codex he is the God of choice. But I don't think with all of the fluff all of the differing legions I should be piegon holed into a HAVE TO play this way idea. I mean, look at vulkan hestan from the salamanders, he gives the ENTIRE army a huge bonus. NONE of our HQ's grant anything army wide except making cult choices better. No benefit in taking them other than you can spam them. Half of them are so over prices or under powered that taking them means you won't even be giving your opponent a decent fight. I fought tau last week and his OVERWATCH almost killed my maulerfiend from ONE squad. Granted, it's a fast cheap unit but come on now...
I get that we have a huge varying codex, when I first picked it up I was overwhelmed with the choices and the way you can kit things out? Stellar. I even posted on dakka "man this codex has everything! I need to design units to do this and that and this and that!" but after playing them? Man termis are doody when faced with space marine termis, daemon princes are almost so unreliable that it's not worth blowing 1/4 your armies points on one. Our helbrutes are firing platforms at best. My analogy about them being the space marines orks equivalent is the best I can come up with. When the entire codex is propped up on MAYBE 10 units out of a 40 or so unit codex...just a little silly.
I'm not in ANY way saying it's unplayable I'm merely saying there are a lot of things I find that are...lackluster. I'm not asking for a god tier codex, but I'm asking for better than mediocre and certain units being a MUST HAVE in the list...
Couldn't you say that about Necrons with night scythes and annihilation barges? Without those units the codex would not be as strong.
Not as strong, but they're also not propping it up. Take those away and Necrons still have a ton of solid units and abilities. Take away the Heldrake and the powerlevel on the CSM book drops dramatically.
The thread is about the lack of power that the CSM codex has, so I was addressing the codex from that perspective.
If you don't like chaos marine models that GW made, that's a perfectly fine opinion to have. However, the thread is not about whether CSM models are aesthetically pleasing. It's about whether the CSM codex is underpowered. In that regard I think the codex is perfectly average.
My comments are not about the models being aesthetically pleasing.....I feel it doesn't give me the opportunity to represent what I want on the table through lack of associated rules as discussed and outlined by others as well as myself.
For me, it is underwhelming because of that and because troops such as 1k sons etc are not that great, my comments are just as valid as yours.
gpfunk wrote: I seriously think people are complaining too much.
Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.
I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.
gpfunk wrote: I seriously think people are complaining too much.
Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.
I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.
Maybe if Daemonic Possession was actually good, but 15 points + Mark isn't so hot unless the Mark is good enough to make up for both costs.
Daemonic Possession also needs a major upgrade as well, it's just not good at all and nobody takes it, much like most of the vehicle upgrade list except for one or two exceptions.
But yeah, even Forgeworld adds friggen vehicle marks, and yet Kelly missed the opportunity....
gpfunk wrote: I seriously think people are complaining too much.
Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.
I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.
Maybe if Daemonic Possession was actually good, but 15 points + Mark isn't so hot unless the Mark is good enough to make up for both costs.
Daemonic Possession also needs a major upgrade as well, it's just not good at all and nobody takes it, much like most of the vehicle upgrade list except for one or two exceptions.
But yeah, even Forgeworld adds friggen vehicle marks, and yet Kelly missed the opportunity....
Hell, the dawn of way series had vehicle marks! This is what I mean lol and the only vehicle taking daemonic possession is a vinducator...its a stupid upgrade and just like orkz how much more crap out of this book can we make completely dice based. Eben daemon princes have a "don't press dat" in the form of a DAEMON weapon. Just a silly silly book that if you have doodoo dice rolls...well you can go sit with khorne and tzeench in time out.
I seriously think people are complaining too much.
I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that while some like it, this really is a generally underwhelming effort on GW's part. Look at the other 6th ed books. They all had their share of complaint threads when they first came out, but nothing out of the ordinary for new releases and the complaint threads died away quickly. Sure there may still be little complaints here and there about this or that, but none of the 6th ed books so far have managed to garner the vitriol that CSM has and that's really saying something IMO.
The amount of complaints regarding Chaos is because it's such a half assed codex. And by that I mean it's poorly thought out.
Their ArmyRule of "Always Challenge" flies in the face of most of the warbands traits that the book is supposed to be representing. Fine for a Berzerker warband or WordBearers but Alpha Legion or NightLords? and Thousand Sons?
You have NoiseMarines with Sonic Weapons. But no option to give those SonicWeapons to any HQ,Terminator/Dreadnought/or any vehicle.
You have Thousand Sons Sorcerors who are supposed to be the very same guys from 10k years ago, yet have no option to be more than ML1 and are stuck with awful psychic powers that you MUST take. And again once you put Terminator armor on you lose your AP3 bolters, as well as no option to mark your dread. (Psychic dread option would have been nice)
You have Nurgle Marines who again once they put on Term armor lose their ability to have FNP? (but Slaanesh Terms can????)
And Khorne poor Khorne....I wont even begin...
Not even a God based armory. Yes you get a couple of wargear items that can only be taken by a specific Mark. Would it have hurt to have 3-4 items be God Specific for each God?
Not to mention the lack of incorporation of the ChaosDemons element. No Khorne berserkers riding their Demon Beast? No Slaanesh Cavalry on Seekers? No Thousand Sons on Discs of Tzeentch?
The basic problem with the CSM dex is that it doesn't allow people to play the armies like they think they should be played. In Codex Demons you can mark everything and they all get their special God Rule and you say yes thats an army that's unified.
In Codex CSM it's a case of " I wish I could mark my vehicles like Demons, or even a more profound wtfm8 why do my elite of the elites lose their Gods favour when they put on Terminator armor.
Now if all Codex CSM was was a framework with which to get people to use the Iyanden style codex as they release them then fine. But as a standalone Codex it is woefully short on options for fluffy lists.
So the problem with CSM codex that most people have is that it doesn't play how they want it to play?
By that logic, I should get upset when the new IG codex comes out and I have no option to run a Gaunt's Ghosts type of army. You know, they should have a 2+ cover save out in the open. Everyone model has a demo charge. A well placed lasgun shot should kill a dreadnought. My HQ should be able to go head to head with a daemon prince.
If I expect GW to release a book like that I might as well start complaining that they didn't deliver what I wanted right now.
The recipe for 6th edition codexes has been.
1. Take old codex and reshuffle the points costs. Make basic troops cheaper.
2. Make a few new kits.
3. One big new kit per army.
The chaos codex was the first one to come out under the blue print and the power level seen there has been pretty consistent there for the rest of the books in 6th. The strongest individual book remains Necrons, a 5th edition codex.
In terms of fluff, GW has moved away from legions and has gone with "general chaos space marines". This was the case with the last codex and the same with this one. The new story is that it's been 10,000 years, the legions have fractured. That's why you see many different types of traitors coming together to fight.
If you used to play the 3.5 codex where you could field legions and mono-god armies, I can see you being frustrated that your lists are no longer valid. However, GW is a model selling company. If you have all the models that you need, you're not a very good customer. That's why things change and power levels wax and wane. With that in mind, in terms of being a competitive codex, I think CSM is descent. Combined with the Daemons codex it can very strong.
Tycho wrote: I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that
...Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.
CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.
Well if each race (I'm counting the guard and SOBs as different races, don't worry) gets six different codices and GW mystically keeps a reasonable updating schedule for them that ensures they all get updated each edition, I'd be all for it. Sadly it's just a pipe dream that will never be.
bogalubov wrote: So the problem with CSM codex that most people have is that it doesn't play how they want it to play?
No, the problem is that you took a single quote out of context. People don't think that Thousand Sons sorcerers (or psykers in general) should be REQUIRED to challenge, amongst many other problems which I won't repeat.
If you used to play the 3.5 codex where you could field legions and mono-god armies, I can see you being frustrated that your lists are no longer valid. However, GW is a model selling company. If you have all the models that you need, you're not a very good customer. That's why things change and power levels wax and wane. With that in mind, in terms of being a competitive codex, I think CSM is descent. Combined with the Daemons codex it can very strong.
Most of the comments in this thread are people wanting more options, not competition. If I wanted to win games I would just go out and buy Plague Marines and Helturkeys. But I don't. I want a coherent army that's fun to play. Khorne isn't even fun to play this edition, nor is Tzeentch.
bogalubov wrote: So the problem with CSM codex that most people have is that it doesn't play how they want it to play?
By that logic, I should get upset when the new IG codex comes out and I have no option to run a Gaunt's Ghosts type of army. You know, they should have a 2+ cover save out in the open. Everyone model has a demo charge. A well placed lasgun shot should kill a dreadnought. My HQ should be able to go head to head with a daemon prince.
If I expect GW to release a book like that I might as well start complaining that they didn't deliver what I wanted right now.
The recipe for 6th edition codexes has been.
1. Take old codex and reshuffle the points costs. Make basic troops cheaper.
2. Make a few new kits.
3. One big new kit per army.
The chaos codex was the first one to come out under the blue print and the power level seen there has been pretty consistent there for the rest of the books in 6th. The strongest individual book remains Necrons, a 5th edition codex.
In terms of fluff, GW has moved away from legions and has gone with "general chaos space marines". This was the case with the last codex and the same with this one. The new story is that it's been 10,000 years, the legions have fractured. That's why you see many different types of traitors coming together to fight.
If you used to play the 3.5 codex where you could field legions and mono-god armies, I can see you being frustrated that your lists are no longer valid. However, GW is a model selling company. If you have all the models that you need, you're not a very good customer. That's why things change and power levels wax and wane. With that in mind, in terms of being a competitive codex, I think CSM is descent. Combined with the Daemons codex it can very strong.
You're skipping the point. I said I was underwhelmed by most of the units. Look at the article that just came up in dakka MOST units are a semi competitve with competitive and then a "eh" rating. You keep saying we're griping about power, we're griping about being cornered into nurgle being the only truly competitive God. Everyone has also said they don't want to move away from the "legions" fluff. I know I sure don't, I want my iron warriors shooty killy and maimy. I want my khorne berserkers to be the scariest thing in melee because well ya know...when I read the books that's kinda...their thing? I want my sorcerers to be just that not some "HOLY CRAP THOSE POWERS ARE POOPY AND HE'S EXPENSIVE". The only 2 gods I can see being feasible with this codex are nurgle and slaanesh, because noise marines are awesome. Like I've said multiple times though, look at what other NAMED characters do for an army, ghazzy makes all of the orks go bananas belial is a man among men and makes termis troops. Look at our hq's at best they make our cult troops - troops. I had typhus go into a challenge against belial and get smashed. I didn't want to challenge but I HAD to. It just has so many silly components that don't make sense and for being the "first" 6th book it doesn't fit in very well. IMO
Tycho wrote: I think the sheer amount of complaints STILL coming out so long after the initial release points to the fact that
...Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.
CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.
I don't think that's true at all, I love chaos marines. When I think of pure evil in ANY gaming universe I think of chaos. I don't think we need 6 codices to be please with our book. Just a defining element to the army we're choosing. Something that defines that army, It's not to much to ask IMO. I mean something like iron warriors are granted this world eaters that something that makes the army an army. At most our HQ's make things troops. That doesn't make the list ANY cooler or more fun to play just that you can spam more of that cult. There's nothing that makes your elites heavies fast attack ANYTHING you would see in a warband of that legion. That's what I'm talking about, and our most powerful unit? A flier that in my experience I haven't seen until turn 3-4 at the earliest. Granted, that's dice but comon now.
How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.
With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.
Ergo were left with a few points
- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.
- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.
- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.
- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.
- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.
Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.
Don't have time to address everything here but wanted to reply to this real quick
lazarian wrote: How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops,
Functionally the way they're actually used, they're Troops that have to be unlocked, they're not really typical "elites" units. I can't think of a list that I've encountered that has used any of those as actual "elites".
lazarian wrote: How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.
With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.
Ergo were left with a few points
- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.
- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.
- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.
- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.
- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.
Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.
Or just paint them in a generic scheme point at them and say they have mark of nurgle. Give all your nightlords mark of nurgle too, who cares. The book is to boring, generic and uninspiring there's little reason to even stick to fluff modeling options.
Functionally the way they're actually used, they're Troops that have to be unlocked, they're not really typical "elites" units. I can't think of a list that I've encountered that has used any of those as actual "elites".
Yeah, but do you know how many troop choices Tau have? 2.
What about Eldar? 3
Chaos can unlock more troops from the elites slot and the chaos marines themselves are very customizable.
For example, you can turn regular chaos marines into pseudo bezerkers and use your old bezerker models. They will be cheaper and for most part more effective as you can give them special weapons.
You're skipping the point. I said I was underwhelmed by most of the units. Look at the article that just came up in dakka MOST units are a semi competitve with competitive and then a "eh" rating. You keep saying we're griping about power, we're griping about being cornered into nurgle being the only truly competitive God. Everyone has also said they don't want to move away from the "legions" fluff. I know I sure don't, I want my iron warriors shooty killy and maimy. I want my khorne berserkers to be the scariest thing in melee because well ya know...when I read the books that's kinda...their thing? I want my sorcerers to be just that not some "HOLY CRAP THOSE POWERS ARE POOPY AND HE'S EXPENSIVE". The only 2 gods I can see being feasible with this codex are nurgle and slaanesh, because noise marines are awesome. Like I've said multiple times though, look at what other NAMED characters do for an army, ghazzy makes all of the orks go bananas belial is a man among men and makes termis troops. Look at our hq's at best they make our cult troops - troops. I had typhus go into a challenge against belial and get smashed. I didn't want to challenge but I HAD to. It just has so many silly components that don't make sense and for being the "first" 6th book it doesn't fit in very well. IMO
I'm only addressing the arguments that people are presenting to me.
Your original point was "Chaos marines is a weak codex". I countered with my opinions that there are a good number of competitive choices in the book and the book is on par with other 6th edition codexes.
In terms of actual units, I don't own any plague marines. My lord is Khorne marked and my army is assault based. It took me a little while to find the right balance of units, but I've had good success playing in a competitive environment. I don't win every game, but I'm usually in the game and have fun. With spawn, bikes, hell even raptors you have other options that do not lean on the heldrake. Even maulerfiends can compliment your assault units.
If you want to shoot and you don't like obliterators you have the cheapest autocannons in the game. You have cheap predators. Forgefiends can put out a torrent of dakka. If you take a chaos herald or Lord of Change you can even get prescience for those guys.
So if you don't want to play heldrakes and obliterators, I just named you a bunch of other options. The power of the codex does not drop any worse if you don't use those units than it would for Necrons if you took Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges away. Or if you took Paladins from Grey Knights. Or Riptides from Tau. But the Heldrake is an option, and it's arguably the most broken flyer in the game. Are we honestly complaining that our codex has one of the cheesiest units?
The codex is also battle brothers with daemons which opens up a ton of other broken possibilities.
There have been other commenters that have complained that their fluffy units are gone. I've tried to point out that if you have a play style in mind that you enjoy, there is nothing that prevents you from finding the rule book that fits your play style and just make the rules fit your own fluff. But for some reason that's not a workable solution.
What I'm getting is that you GW to make you the fluffy units that you like and they need to be super beefy at the same time. You'd like to be fluffy WAAC tournament players.
I don't play chaos so I'm a neutral party in this so I have an outsider's percpetive. It's not awful, but its not what it should have been. This is Chaos, the bane of the Empire, and they get a half-baked codex. People who play chaos didn't want a overpowering codex like some people accuse them of wanting, they wanted a codex that fits the fluff that they've come to love over the years. Fans of Nights Lords wanted a codex that lets them play an army of Night Lords. Instead they get "play Nurgle or die." That's not fun.
Is the codex competitive? Yes.
Is there variety in army lists? Yes.
Is it imaginative with non infantry cult units? No.
Can I play my Iron Warriors army? Not really...unless they all have the mark of Nurgle.....what?
MWHistorian wrote: I don't play chaos so I'm a neutral party in this so I have an outsider's percpetive. It's not awful, but its not what it should have been. This is Chaos, the bane of the Empire, and they get a half-baked codex. People who play chaos didn't want a overpowering codex like some people accuse them of wanting, they wanted a codex that fits the fluff that they've come to love over the years. Fans of Nights Lords wanted a codex that lets them play an army of Night Lords. Instead they get "play Nurgle or die." That's not fun.
Is the codex competitive? Yes.
Is there variety in army lists? Yes.
Is it imaginative with non infantry cult units? No.
Can I play my Iron Warriors army? Not really...unless they all have the mark of Nurgle.....what?
Take a bastion and jam it full of havocs with autocannons and lascannons. Bam, you have Iron Warriors. You have fortifications, you have heavy weapons. I'm not sure how much more Iron Warriory it can get. Not satisfied with that? Ally in an artillery battery (0-1 just like 3.5 codex) from IG.
People need to let go of the idea that the game designers need to sit down and say "Oooh, I need to take care of those 200 night lord players in the world, let's make a unit called Night Lord attack squads. They will be awesome and have a choice of jump packs, or bikes, or maybe a giant bat."
If you want a giant bat riding Night Lord. Just model a chaos marine on a bat and say that they use the rules for bikers. Or ally in some Tzeentch screamers and use their rules as your bat riding marines. It's your hobby, find a way to enjoy it.
MWHistorian wrote: I don't play chaos so I'm a neutral party in this so I have an outsider's percpetive. It's not awful, but its not what it should have been. This is Chaos, the bane of the Empire, and they get a half-baked codex. People who play chaos didn't want a overpowering codex like some people accuse them of wanting, they wanted a codex that fits the fluff that they've come to love over the years. Fans of Nights Lords wanted a codex that lets them play an army of Night Lords. Instead they get "play Nurgle or die." That's not fun.
Is the codex competitive? Yes.
Is there variety in army lists? Yes.
Is it imaginative with non infantry cult units? No.
Can I play my Iron Warriors army? Not really...unless they all have the mark of Nurgle.....what?
Take a bastion and jam it full of havocs with autocannons and lascannons. Bam, you have Iron Warriors. You have fortifications, you have heavy weapons. I'm not sure how much more Iron Warriory it can get. Not satisfied with that? Ally in an artillery battery (0-1 just like 3.5 codex) from IG.
People need to let go of the idea that the game designers need to sit down and say "Oooh, I need to take care of those 200 night lord players in the world, let's make a unit called Night Lord attack squads. They will be awesome and have a choice of jump packs, or bikes, or maybe a giant bat."
If you want a giant bat riding Night Lord. Just model a chaos marine on a bat and say that they use the rules for bikers. Or ally in some Tzeentch screamers and use their rules as your bat riding marines. It's your hobby, find a way to enjoy it.
that is probably along the lines of what they would make too. a giant bat, farting out smaller bats, being ridden by a batman and it's also on fire too for some reason
Functionally the way they're actually used, they're Troops that have to be unlocked, they're not really typical "elites" units. I can't think of a list that I've encountered that has used any of those as actual "elites".
Yeah, but do you know how many troop choices Tau have? 2.
What about Eldar? 3
Chaos can unlock more troops from the elites slot and the chaos marines themselves are very customizable.
For example, you can turn regular chaos marines into pseudo bezerkers and use your old bezerker models. They will be cheaper and for most part more effective as you can give them special weapons.
Nice, I didn't know you were a Texan Sharpshooter. You know how many "troop" options Chaos Space Marines have? 2. Most codices tend to have 2-3 different troop choices which is the same as the Chaos. If you want to get into unlocking, then Chaos Space Marines can have up to 4 (if you take 2 differently marked Lords or a Tzeentch Sorcerer). This of course doesn't mean a lot because Dark Angels can have up to 4 different types of troop choices. Which is fine. But don't act like we have more options than everyone else.
Most codices have 3 troop choices. Functionally, Chaos Space Marines have 3 different troop choices if you take a Marked Lord. So we're no different there.
In terms of actual units, I don't own any plague marines. My lord is Khorne marked and my army is assault based. It took me a little while to find the right balance of units, but I've had good success playing in a competitive environment. I don't win every game, but I'm usually in the game and have fun. With spawn, bikes, hell even raptors you have other options that do not lean on the heldrake. Even maulerfiends can compliment your assault units.
Good for you, I can use anecdotes too! Also I find it funny that you really only mention Fast Attack choices.
If you want to shoot and you don't like obliterators you have the cheapest autocannons in the game. You have cheap predators. Forgefiends can put out a torrent of dakka. If you take a chaos herald or Lord of Change you can even get prescience for those guys.
Great, so I have to take allies in order for my book to be viable. Sounds good man.
So if you don't want to play heldrakes and obliterators, I just named you a bunch of other options. The power of the codex does not drop any worse if you don't use those units than it would for Necrons if you took Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges away. Or if you took Paladins from Grey Knights. Or Riptides from Tau. But the Heldrake is an option, and it's arguably the most broken flyer in the game. Are we honestly complaining that our codex has one of the cheesiest units?
Yeah...you named all the other fast attack choices. And allies. Tau would still be good without the Riptide. Grey Knights don't use Paladins anymore. Necrons would still be pretty good without Night Scythes. But Chaos would never be used if it wasn't for the Helturkey. And I refuse to buy it because then I'd just be encouraging behavior I don't agree with.
The codex is also battle brothers with daemons which opens up a ton of other broken possibilities.
Yeah, I love the part where my Chaos Daemon Heralds can join up with my Chaos Space Marine units! Oh wait.
There have been other commenters that have complained that their fluffy units are gone. I've tried to point out that if you have a play style in mind that you enjoy, there is nothing that prevents you from finding the rule book that fits your play style and just make the rules fit your own fluff. But for some reason that's not a workable solution.
What I'm getting is that you GW to make you the fluffy units that you like and they need to be super beefy at the same time. You'd like to be fluffy WAAC tournament players.
What I'm getting from you is that you love to use anecdotes and cherry-pick examples. See I can do it too! I'd just like Khorne units that didn't suck. Wow so the Khorne Lord is good, as long as you take a cookie-cutter Lord. That's the only sem-viable and not "fighting with one hand tied behind your back" Khorne unit in the book. There is no reason to take the Mark of Khorne and I think that you'd understand that since apparently you play it.
Why should I bother paying $50 for a book that pisses over my army? If you're telling me to do counts-as, I'm just going to use Blood Angels or the Horus Heresy: Betrayal list.
lazarian wrote: - The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.
This is the one part of your rant I disagree with. The 3.5 books massive scope of customiseability was used by more than just WAAC players. The amount you could do with it was amazing, and most of the sub par options were only considered sub par because a few options were flatout better than anything in the game at that time, not just flat out better than other options in that codex.
I do agree that the Chaos codex has far more options than most right now, however. While people complain it's not up wo par with the 3.5 codex, it still has a massive wealth of options. The only book right now that surpasses it really is the IG codex, and that's purely down to how many tank variants they have.
Quite surprising that so many have negative feelings. I think UNMET expectations has more to do with this than the actual codex being good OR bad.
Everyone wanted the codex to BE something it isn't and no oner got entirely what they wanted.
When does ANYONE get EVERYTHING they wanted?
I like the Chaos codex. I like it a LOT better than its predecessor. No codex is ever going to be revered like the 3E version was but then again, that was a different meta in 40K back then.
Im not saying that people are wrong to WISH the codex had done more to represent the "factions" like Night Lords (My favorite) but the codex itself does NOT do a poor job of winning.
The codex could have been so much better. I am not sure what Phil Kelley was thinking. He was either rushed or was completely unmotivated. He has written good stuff in the past, so it was surprising. I was expecting a beat face codex. Competitive builds really revolve around Nurgle, Baledrakes, Cultists\Zombies, and Oblits aren't bad in the right list.
But what about all the rest? Mutilators? Defilers? Warp Talons? Chaos Terminators? Forge Fiends? Tsons? Basic CSM? Warp Smith? There is no reason to field these units unless you just play for lolz and like the models....
The new CSM book should have been like Grey Knights in 5th. They are 10,000 year old super soliders infested with the power of the dark gods...
One of the things which I were initially very excited about was that every unit could have a Mark of Chaos, but afterwards some things seemed very odd. It's a completely new thing that all units can have Marks but what about vehicles?
Chaos vehicles must be some of the most converted models in the entire game, why not give them some god-specific upgrades? Wouldn't be that hard.
That awful previous Chaos Space Marine codex had four god-specific Daemon weapons, why just make two in the new codex? Where's the logic here?
And then there's the oh-so many cases of ineffective Chaos units and upgrades, which are too expensive when compared to what they do.
An army rule which could make the army fun and exciting is the Chaos Champion rule, but it's more negative than positive and I'm not even sure it fits the background.
Mutilators were probably a little ill thought out. Yup. I haven't seen one fielded yet. hehehe.
Im not sure I am as on board wit the rest of that list, but the Mutilators for sure are one unit I cant really understand. The Obliterators are such an obviously strong choice in comparison.
Relic07 wrote: The codex could have been so much better. I am not sure what Phil Kelley was thinking. He was either rushed or was completely unmotivated. He has written good stuff in the past, so it was surprising. I was expecting a beat face codex. Competitive builds really revolve around Nurgle, Baledrakes, Cultists\Zombies, and Oblits aren't bad in the right list.
But what about all the rest? Mutilators? Defilers? Warp Talons? Chaos Terminators? Forge Fiends? Tsons? Basic CSM? Warp Smith? There is no reason to field these units unless you just play for lolz and like the models....
The new CSM book should have been like Grey Knights in 5th. They are 10,000 year old super soliders infested with the power of the dark gods...
That's my picture of Chaos Space Marines too but I think that GW are moving away from the image of Chaos Space Marines being elite infantry, they want normal Space Marines to have that image. You can tell by watching the Ultramarines movie (I know GW didn't write the scripts) or look at our transport options and maximum models in a unit. They want us to footslog big cheap units across the board like Orks along animal robots (= Squiggoths), while Space Marines get the opposite option, to halve their squads while maintaining the bonuses of a full size squad.
Except we still cost more than loyalists xD the only way to make them cheaper is 11+ and that ignores the fact that making them vets, marked, or given cc weapons actually makes us more expensive. And we get a bad special universal rule to add to that!
Personally I am underwhelmed. I love Thousand Sons and Berserkers. Yeah I am done at that have a good day! *cries*
According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.
According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.
I say feth that, that is stupid.
And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?
Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.
Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?
According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.
I say feth that, that is stupid.
And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?
Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.
Only chaos players would want berzerkers with checkpacks. That's why you don't get them Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?
What really strikes me as odd is that it's named Codex Chaos Space Marines. Why? The toughest armies my CSM mate has thrown at me have exactly one CSM, a HQ guy with an AP3 Torrent weapon. The rest is cultists as troops because they're cheap and take objectives just fine, and then heavy hitters from other slots.
According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.
I say feth that, that is stupid.
And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?
Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.
Only chaos players would want berzerkers with checkpacks. That's why you don't get them Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?
I'm immortalizing this typo.
Also, there is a precedent for Rubric Raptors.
Goddammit...I hate mornings >.<
Anyway, aren't rubric terminators 2 wounded psykers? I think I have a theory
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spetulhu wrote: What really strikes me as odd is that it's named Codex Chaos Space Marines. Why? The toughest armies my CSM mate has thrown at me have exactly one CSM, a HQ guy with an AP3 Torrent weapon. The rest is cultists as troops because they're cheap and take objectives just fine, and then heavy hitters from other slots.
"The mighty Chaos Space Marine and his army".
Because most of the codex is composed of CSM? Cultists are just one unit. Everyone else is a marine.
gpfunk wrote: I seriously think people are complaining too much.
Though I do like the idea of a character called "The Turkeyborn" as mentioned earlier. His shout could be the same Baleflamer shot as the Drake.
I still want my cult units man...Dreadnoughts,Termies, Bikes, Raptors, and Havocs could all do with cult variants. I also think that marks for vehicles is a great idea and should be done, although maybe you should need to buy daemonic possession on them first.
Maybe if Daemonic Possession was actually good, but 15 points + Mark isn't so hot unless the Mark is good enough to make up for both costs.
Daemonic Possession also needs a major upgrade as well, it's just not good at all and nobody takes it, much like most of the vehicle upgrade list except for one or two exceptions.
But yeah, even Forgeworld adds friggen vehicle marks, and yet Kelly missed the opportunity....
I thought it was stupid that a vehicle which is possessed by a Daemon doesn't actually get the Daemon USR, that alone would make it worth the cost. All the other Daemonic Possessed vehicles have the USR, why not something with the special rule that you paid for.
The Codex is ok but it is full of missed opportunity, hopefully we will get supplements or articles in White Dwarf giving new rules giving us more ways to play.
According to Kelly and Thorpe, the moment a plague marine puts one of these on, he can feel pain now and no longer has so many diseases that even brushing against him carries risk of getting eaten by nurgle's rot.
I say feth that, that is stupid.
And who wouldn't want bezerkers with jet packs?
Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.
Only chaos players would want berzerkers with checkpacks. That's why you don't get them Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?
I'm immortalizing this typo.
Also, there is a precedent for Rubric Raptors.
Goddammit...I hate mornings >.<
Anyway, aren't rubric terminators 2 wounded psykers? I think I have a theory
.
Nope. Terminator aspiring sorcerers mayhaps, but Rubric Terminators?
Well, those goes that theory. I thought the reason they didn't want rubric terminators around was because they had two wounds, and that would be copying GK. They''d then have to find a way to price them so that both GK players and CSM would be happy.
For people who say that this Dex can't produce legion specific stuff is dead wrong... To a point.
You can make a passable version of the legions.
Iron Warriors.
Take a ton of Heavy Stuff and a Warp Smith or two. Daemon vehicles a plenty. I'm considering running this as the army has a formidable amount of dakka.
Alpha Legion.
Using Huron as a counts as Alpha Legion lord, he can infiltrate units and you can use cultists to bulk up the army.
Night Lords.
We have a player locally who has a an Exalted Warband from the Night Lords trilogy. He uses a Dark Apostle for Talos and a Chosen Squad for First Claw. It works and looks brilliant on the table.
Word Bearers.
Ok, this one is harder to do. I'd probably go with using CSM as allies to a CD list.
The Cult Legions are fethed though. No Cult Terminators or vehicles makes me sad.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, those goes that theory. I thought the reason they didn't want rubric terminators around was because they had two wounds, and that would be copying GK. They''d then have to find a way to price them so that both GK players and CSM would be happy.
That being said, a slow and purposeful jump jet unit like a rubric raptor would be...amusing...
Puscifer wrote: For people who say that this Dex can't produce legion specific stuff is dead wrong... To a point.
You can make a passable version of the legions.
Iron Warriors. Take a ton of Heavy Stuff and a Warp Smith or two. Daemon vehicles a plenty. I'm considering running this as the army has a formidable amount of dakka.
Word Bearers. Ok, this one is harder to do. I'd probably go with using CSM as allies to a CD list.
Exactly. You can even take IG allies for the basilisks.
For the WB, I would imagine CD allies and Dark Apostles will do.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, those goes that theory. I thought the reason they didn't want rubric terminators around was because they had two wounds, and that would be copying GK. They''d then have to find a way to price them so that both GK players and CSM would be happy.
That being said, a slow and purposeful jump jet unit like a rubric raptor would be...amusing...
That's probably why they don't exist.
I think raptors were one of the units TS weren't allowed to use in the 3.5 dex, iirc.
There is still nothing to stop you from making TS raptors. They just won't have the rubric.
Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.
Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?
Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.
I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.
Considering the Black Rage they get, they get pretty close.
Even have a powerful melee troop unit that can model well off Bezerkers, called the Death Company.
Heh, good point. That still isn't really the point; have the world eaters used raptors at all? Can Raptors even take a mark of khorne?
Yes, and they do indeed have jump pack troops, they also even have troops that prefer to shoot from a distance. They aren't like pure footsloggers (Though they do have a defiler variant they can ride)
Huh, I'd forgotten about those. Yeah, that is silly.
Only chaos players would want berzerkers with check packs. That's why you don't get them
Is there a precedence for jumping berzerkers?
Yes, it's called Codex: Blood Angels, and why everyone I knew that played Khorne just used BA instead of ever touching the CSM book.
I was not aware the BA were members of the World Eaters legion. How very enlightening.
Considering the Black Rage they get, they get pretty close.
Even have a powerful melee troop unit that can model well off Bezerkers, called the Death Company.
Heh, good point. That still isn't really the point; have the world eaters used raptors at all? Can Raptors even take a mark of khorne?
Yes, and they do indeed have jump pack troops, they also even have troops that prefer to shoot from a distance. They aren't like pure footsloggers (Though they do have a defiler variant they can ride)
Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. Very annoying then that there is no khornate version of the raptor :/
lazarian wrote: How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.
With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.
Ergo were left with a few points
- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.
- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.
- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.
- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.
- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.
Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.
Have you even read this thread? The OP isn't having a 'tizzy' as you so maturely put it. He's pointing out the sheer volume of underwhelming choices we have. A SnP 70ppm unit (max 3) that can't shoot is nothing but a points trap. Landraiders are simply there to fill up half a page in the codex. An elite section that's packed with units that are hardly considered elite, but if you want to spend up in an HQ slot you can make them overcosted troops... whoopee. I can get the same mileage out of appropriately marked CSM. It's a topic about missed opportunities, of which there are many. You're implying we wanted 6 codicies? Maybe some CSM players do, but the majority just expected a little more. Not a few auto-include units and a whole lot of noob-trap units or "Oh, what were they thinking with this unit" units. Also there are 2 troop options, one of which (cultists) looks like it took all of 2 minutes to write up.
Your suggestion to use an old edition codex (or a loyalist one) to get a fluffy army only serves to reinforce his point.
With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.
I have yet to see a single thread go this way. Not one. The vast majority of people are complaining about fuctionality. Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex. Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.
Have you even read this thread?
No. He has not. Or he has a reading comprehension issue. There's someone in every one of these threads that comes in 3 or 4 pages into the discussion and types up a huge rant about how we are all just bitching because we "wanted Grey Knights" level of power and then says something utterly ridiculous like "How can you complain about anything! You have marks!". If I'm being honest here, I stopped reading his post after the paragraph I quoted, but I'm willing to bet he said that or something very similar ('Crons is also sometimes subbed in for GK).
..Chaos Space Marine players will never, ever be happy.
CSM players want to tbe like loyalists in that they get six different codices, basically.
You haven't been reading these threads either I don't think. I'm a CSM player (although as of a few weeks agomy CSM have officially been shelved for a while) and I have been happy with most of our books. I hate this one. I also haven't seen ANYONE say that we need 6 different books. The vast majority of players who wanted Legion specific armies all say they would have been more than satisfied with one page of extra rules. Personally, I am happy with one book. I just wish they would have actually finished it before making me pay $50 for it.
Spetulhu wrote: What really strikes me as odd is that it's named Codex Chaos Space Marines. Why? The toughest armies my CSM mate has thrown at me have exactly one CSM, a HQ guy with an AP3 Torrent weapon. The rest is cultists as troops because they're cheap and take objectives just fine, and then heavy hitters from other slots.
"The mighty Chaos Space Marine and his army".
Because most of the codex is composed of CSM? Cultists are just one unit. Everyone else is a marine.
Everyone else is a marine, but it feels like they're in the book just so people that had them can continue using them. CSMHQ, 2 cultist units, a few Helldrakes and Forge/Maulerfiends, then ally in a Herald of Tzeentch and a maxed unit of Pink Horrors. Works so much better.
Tycho wrote: Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.
Tycho wrote: Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.
Templars called, they want a word with you.
Templars are still in 4th ed. They are two editions behind.
Fair enough, but like CthuluIsSpy said - the Templars are two editions old and were created in a time when getting into CC was MUCH easier. It only serves to further illustrate how poorly done the new Chaos book is that it has so glaring a weakness in common with a book that is two editions old.
Now, if the new Templars book comes out and none of this is fixed in their book either, I will revise that statement and we can share a drink over our common issues. lol
Tycho wrote: Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.
Templars called, they want a word with you.
Great emprah! Still no new Templar codex... anyways... not really sure how the first 6th edition codex should feel about that xD. Congrats chaos! You got an update! Now those Thousand Sons that have been terrible for a long time? Still bad. Berserkers which were okay last codex? Make them more expensive than death company (I believe correct me if i am wrong) and make them worse than death company (which aren't working well themselves). And stating a 6th edition codex suffers a terrible universal special rule and lacks a means of actually getting to the enemy (pick a fragile non-open topped rhino or a schizoid land raider that is overpriced and a terrible way to transport seekers) is the same as a 4th edition codex doesn't make it better xD (on a side note part of me is somewhat expecting black templars becoming a supplement book)
lazarian wrote: How many more options do you Chaos players want? In one book that army has more than virtually every other army book. 5 different elite units can be unlocked as troops, The two basic troop types can be marked 4 different ways that drip with long standing fluff modeling options.
With every thread it works this way. Chaos players state they want every unit to be a powerful, or competitive options the easy rebuttal is that no other army book ever produced by GW has done this, the majority of all books have sub par options (thus leaving powerful options). When that card is played Chaos players state no no no, they want fluffy! options. The easy rebuttal is that there is nothing stopping them, thus prompting a circular trip to the first argument.
Ergo were left with a few points
- The book has multiple powerful builds that are competitive in tournaments, at the very least via allies. They are not the best *cough Necrons*. You are in the same spot most armies are in, some things suck, some things rock. If you want a fluff army ask your opponent to play a fluff army to counter it. 5 minutes of conversation with your opponent before you set up lists and missions will give you most of what you want.
- Not every option will be worthwhile, this seems to send a tizzy to certain cult aficionados and leads them to butt heads with the first point, over and sadly over again. Again no other army in GW history has given out this luxury, your not going to be the first. The current book has more options than any of the other 6th armies, you only get so much.
- Yes, the Space Marine faction gets too many books, this one you kinda have to get over, there have been too many marine armies since 2nd, kinda just have to let this go and get in line with Guard, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids and most other factions who could make reasonable noises as to why they also deserve 6 books. They are on the covers of these rulebooks for a reason, your a backup dancer. Not every brain dropping gets a codex, there will not be Codex: Vespids anytime soon. We all want them rolled into one book or every faction to have their own 6 books, we get it, just not going to happen.
- The 3.5 Chaos book was a mistake, much like many 3rd edition armies and the early 4th ones, the sooner you realize that the better off you will be. Furthermore even if you had that book back in your hands you would also remember that most of that book was subpar over the better options too. Modular, customizable options like that older book lead to heinous overwhelming options that no one was happy with except WAAC players.
- Every fluff idea, including all 9 original legions, can easily be made with the current book plus an ally.. easily. Again they arent giving you a Snakebite book anytime soon for your Ork friends, so stop jabbing every thread with 'wherz mah World Eaters'. Homebrew, use the Blood Angel book, ask friends to use the earlier book in question, ect., just take matters into your own hands.
Your book works, is heavily represented in tournaments and has far more troop options than any other army but IG, and at gunpoint they would give back most of them except vets and not look back. You cant make the 7th elite option into a full blown competetive army... very sorry.
I don't think I've represented myself as "being in a tizzy" by any means. I felt like there were so many units in our book that just...weren't living up to what they're supposed to be. Be it on the table, or in the fluff. A berserker should have more than 1 attack base and shouldn't be limited to riding in a tin box hoping he makes it to kill maim burn! I shouldn't be limited to playing only nurgle in a competitive environment because all of the other Gods are at best "meh". Coming from a recently converted orks player I know what it's like to not have decent shooting and nothing but a t shirt save to hope for. I'm not asking for every unit to even BE competitive but they could at least have SOME synergy. I was looking at last edition's codex today in a bookstore here. Everything is the same other than most units LOSING some vital piece (some of them gained things which I'll grant you) but we lost a lot as well. Maybe that's made up for in points cost but I don't think I got into this army thinking "man I sure hope my guys are 13 points a piece and in power armor" I got into it thinking "gah I'm gonna pay 60 points a man and they're going to absolutely destroy!" Then I look at Khorne berserkers and the 1k sons and I almost added my skull to the skull throne. Look at ANY of the "guides" or "articles" people have written about this army. I can think of 10 units or configuration of units that are a no go right off the bat. MOST of them being core elements to why you would even play chaos marines in the first place!
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/534588.page#5762225 This is a thread I started this week, asking for help in moving my list forward. Look at the advice people have for me. (I'm not in anyway bashing them or their advice) but it's all the same thing. Buy more helturkeys and more plague marines. G.G
It's easy to tell a book is crap when you have to counts as everything in it to get anywhere. Or even counts as a whole different codex.
lol. nice suggestions. iron warriors=plague marines.
As someone highlights, GW wants to jam hellturkeys and dinobots down our throat, the two units i would never consider buying because i hate the models.
kb305 wrote: It's easy to tell a book is crap when you have to counts as everything in it to get anywhere. Or even counts as a whole different codex.
lol. nice suggestions. iron warriors=plague marines.
As someone highlights, GW wants to jam hellturkeys and dinobots down our throat, the two units i would never consider buying because i hate the models.
I wouldn't have started csm if I knew deathguard were the only legion getting ANY of gw's love. aside from the 2 kits IW got =/
Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.
Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.
Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?
But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.
Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?
But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.
The cheapest configuration possible for your idea is 625 points. If you want to upgrade your Khorne Lord (which you will since otherwise he will suck hard) or give your Berzerkers any upgrades (lol) then the unit will quickly approach the 700 point mark.
That has to be one of the worst deathstars in the entire game too. You're just a couple Ordnance blasts away from losing vast swathes of your deathstar.
Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.
Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.
Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?
But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.
"But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas."
The tau say hello. Ya know, when they overwatch that ENTIRE UNIT. Dude, you may not even get the charge off, they overwatch you if you do. That unit is so killy that you're standing there they shoot you to pieces AGAIN and the next turn when you charge? THEY ALL OVERWATCH YOU AGAIN. That's the thing, you keep saying that everything in the codex is awesome and great and it's clearly not. Tell ya what, hang on.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/02/24/tactics-final-chaos-space-marine-breakdown/
That's the breakdown of bloodkittens. for this year. Notice how small that ttop tier is?
I suspect CSM codex was written for 5th edition, but publishing was delayed. ..not that it would make a lot of sense under those rules.
I have tried my BA in 6th. They just won't work too well now. I mostly face Tau, Necron, IG and Eldar. Wonder what they have in common? Oh right, it is the standing back and shooting
Only Chaos has been given multiple new units all based on CC in an edition where CC is terrible. Only Chaos has such a wide variety of troops that can deep strike .... and no reliable way to get them to do it accurately. Almost every single unit in that book is a thought half finished. It has nothing to do with power level.
Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.
Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?
But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.
"But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas."
The tau say hello. Ya know, when they overwatch that ENTIRE UNIT. Dude, you may not even get the charge off, they overwatch you if you do. That unit is so killy that you're standing there they shoot you to pieces AGAIN and the next turn when you charge? THEY ALL OVERWATCH YOU AGAIN. That's the thing, you keep saying that everything in the codex is awesome and great and it's clearly not. Tell ya what, hang on.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/02/24/tactics-final-chaos-space-marine-breakdown/
That's the breakdown of bloodkittens. for this year. Notice how small that ttop tier is?
I haven't said that every unit is awesome. But I have tried to provide ways to use some overlooked units.
For the most part my argument has not been to champion the chaos codex as the end all, be all of codexes. I've tried to show that the codex is on similar power levels to other codexes from 6th edition and that the world is not falling.
We did not get every wish fulfilled in terms of the book, but it is still playable. In terms of wish fulfillment for other codexes, you can find a similar, parallel thread about the awful the Eldar codex in this same forum. That book is also descent. Not every unit is great and some vary from situational to awful (banshees). That's just how codexes are.
As for you ending the argument with linking to TastyTaste's opinion of the chaos codex. He is also just one person who is expressing his opinion on the internet. Just because he has a blog doesn't really make his opinion any more valid than mine. I've actually played him twice, both times to a draw. Great guy, but I won't just take his word for everything.
So I urge people to go out and try some units that are considered great. Try to find a way to use them. If you still don't like the codex, you can sit out this version until the next update in 5-6 years. It's just not likely that they will give you everything you want at that point either.
As for assault units being difficult to use. That applies to everyone. Not just chaos. This is a shooty edition, just like the last one was, but even worse.
Tycho wrote: Only Chaos has a unit like Berserkers ... and no real way to get them into combat. Only Chaos has a codex with rules that actively punish you for using the codex.
Templars called, they want a word with you.
Templars are still in 4th ed. They are two editions behind.
Righteous Zeal was updated for 6th edition and promptly ruined our last decent troops choice. Templars can only snap fire Quadguns and Icarus lascannons if they take a single casualty in the firing unit. Righteous Zeal was supposed to be an advantage; the changes in 6th ed turned it into a yoke.
So I urge people to go out and try some units that are considered great. Try to find a way to use them. If you still don't like the codex, you can sit out this version until the next update in 5-6 years. It's just not likely that they will give you everything you want at that point either.
I'm not exactly planning on running my mono-slaanesh list as a nurgle anytime soon, though I've had better results with adding in some daemons, which shows a bit that they can actually increase the power of CSM.
Though does anyone know if the D3 Infiltrate rule works on battle brothers?
Eldar Banshees say hello. Their Striking Scorpion friends do too.
Although the Scorpions give you an idea. How about Huron with a unit of 20 bezerkers and a khorne lord?
But I suppose complaining is easier than trying new ideas.
And I suppose trying to type a snappy quip is easier than actually READING the very thing you quoted. I shall repeat it for you.
"Multiple NEW units". Read that, let it sink in and get back to me when you see what you did wrong.
Now, let's address why your "idea" doesn't work. Since IC's can't join a infiltrating unit, you have to hope for rolling two infiltrators for Huron's warlord ability (assuming you're not also trying to infiltrate Huron in which case you'd need 3). So flaw right there. You have to rely on hope. So what happens when you roll a one? As already mentioned, the cheapest possible configuration for your plan is already very expensive. Now you've rolled a one and your berserkers are on their own and your Khorne lord just lost his escort. While we're talking about it, why would you run a Khorne Lord on Jugger with the berserkers? He's so much faster it feels like you're hamstringing him. It helps illustrate one of my other points as well. Because of how this book was put together, you're pretty much creating a core "gimmick" (by gimmick I don't mean abusing rules but rather a main unit or core unit to your list that has a very specific job to do) and the rest of the list is pretty much just a delivery system for that core unit. So here, your "gimmick" would be the jugger lord/berserkers. That combo would have to do one heck of a lot of damage to not be a complete anchor around the army's neck, and would STILL need a lot of help from supporting units.In this case, your "gimmick" is crazy expensive, is based heavily on luck, and will fail far more often than it succeeds. Anyway, point is, no. Not really a solution.
So, TL/DR;
Common sense says hello.
For the most part my argument has not been to champion the chaos codex as the end all, be all of codexes. I've tried to show that the codex is on similar power levels to other codexes from 6th edition and that the world is not falling.
Chaos as a whole is by far bottom of the barrel of the new books and will continue to sink. The reason the sky is not falling is because we also have a few (actually two maybe three) units so powerfull that the rest of the book could easily not have been published. So basically, Codex NurgleDrake is awesome (but boring as hell) and Codex everything else? No thanks.
So I urge people to go out and try some units that are considered great. Try to find a way to use them. If you still don't like the codex, you can sit out this version until the next update in 5-6 years. It's just not likely that they will give you everything you want at that point either.
As for assault units being difficult to use. That applies to everyone. Not just chaos. This is a shooty edition, just like the last one was, but even worse.
I had zero expectations for this book, I pre-ordered it and have played it since the day it came out. I am still disappointed with it. I have played Chaos since second edition and have nearly 15000 points worth of stuff so trust me when I say that I have run many many lists with the book. You can try as hard as you want to "find uses" for things (and what does it say when even you who appears to be rooting for the book have to use language like that) but nothing is going to change the fact that, as I said before, this book is a series of half-finished thoughts.
As far as "getting everything I want" - All I want is a well thought out book that makes sense and does NOT punish me for using it. If they can't deliver that then something is very very wrong.
Yes, assault is hard for everyone, but my biggest gripe is that not everyone got multiple NEW units based around that mechanic AND still no good way to use them.
Righteous Zeal was updated for 6th edition and promptly ruined our last decent troops choice. Templars can only snap fire Quadguns and Icarus lascannons if they take a single casualty in the firing unit. Righteous Zeal was supposed to be an advantage; the changes in 6th ed turned it into a yoke.
A fair point, but again, you're looking at a single rule that got fired out as a quick update and backfired (and I do agree that it was bad). It's still not the same as an entire codex coming out and causing similar issues right out of the gate IMO.
Now, let's address why your "idea" doesn't work. Since IC's can't join a infiltrating unit, you have to hope for rolling two infiltrators for Huron's warlord ability (assuming you're not also trying to infiltrate Huron in which case you'd need 3). So flaw right there. You have to rely on hope. So what happens when you roll a one? As already mentioned, the cheapest possible configuration for your plan is already very expensive. Now you've rolled a one and your berserkers are on their own and your Khorne lord just lost his escort. While we're talking about it, why would you run a Khorne Lord on Jugger with the berserkers? He's so much faster it feels like you're hamstringing him. It helps illustrate one of my other points as well. Because of how this book was put together, you're pretty much creating a core "gimmick" (by gimmick I don't mean abusing rules but rather a main unit or core unit to your list that has a very specific job to do) and the rest of the list is pretty much just a delivery system for that core unit. So here, your "gimmick" would be the jugger lord/berserkers. That combo would have to do one heck of a lot of damage to not be a complete anchor around the army's neck, and would STILL need a lot of help from supporting units.In this case, your "gimmick" is crazy expensive, is based heavily on luck, and will fail far more often than it succeeds. Anyway, point is, no. Not really a solution.
So, TL/DR;
You give infiltrate to the lord and he confers it to the unit. That will require him to not have a mount, but it does assure that the unit gets to infiltrate no matter what dice roll you get.
The unit is certainly expensive, but it does solve the dilemma of getting across the board. If you pair in maulterfiends and some bikers, you have units that can catch up to the infiltrators quickly. You do have to sell out on the approach, but it's a workable way to run assault. If you want to shock your opponent, you can grab a mutilator or two and deep strike them (hopefully second turn). Then they eat some fire from other units or if they are ignored they put two power fists apiece to his face.
Anyway, that suggestion was mostly to find a way to get the bezerkers across the board.
As for the Eldar. They got wraithblades without having any assault vehicles.
You give infiltrate to the lord and he confers it to the unit. That will require him to not have a mount, but it does assure that the unit gets to infiltrate no matter what dice roll you get.
He has to join them before he can confer it, and as mentioned already (second sentence in the paragraph you quoted), he cannot join them if he is infiltrating (there's multiple YMDC threads on it) so no, doesn't work. Just like the previous time you quoted me, if you were actually READING what you were quoting I think you'd understand me better.
EDIT:
I think that's stupid and should be FAQ'd, but yeah anyway, until then, no. You can't run it that way.
The unit is certainly expensive, but it does solve the dilemma of getting across the board. If you pair in maulterfiends and some bikers, you have units that can catch up to the infiltrators quickly. You do have to sell out on the approach, but it's a workable way to run assault. If you want to shock your opponent, you can grab a mutilator or two and deep strike them (hopefully second turn). Then they eat some fire from other units or if they are ignored they put two power fists apiece to his face.
On the Mutilators - LOL NO. I'll dig the thread up later, but myself and others did a lot of testing of that exact strategy in an attempt to find a use for them and it's woefully lacking. For too many reasons to list. As for the rest of that quote - yes, as I already mentioned, you DO HAVE to build the rest of the list around that crazy expensive central unit which is one of the primary reasons CSM falls down as hard as it does. You tend to have to completely sell out to one strategy and just hope that A. you pull it off, and B. no one happens to have brought any of the many possible hard counters. Even at a fluffy/non-competitive level that gets old quick. Have you actually played any of the things you're suggesting? I've run through most of them already but I feel like you haven't.
As for the Eldar. They got wraithblades without having any assault vehicles.
But that's just an option on a unit that can already take a decent gun. Not really the same thing at all.
You give infiltrate to the lord and he confers it to the unit. That will require him to not have a mount, but it does assure that the unit gets to infiltrate no matter what dice roll you get.
That's not how it works from what I've read.
The unit is certainly expensive, but it does solve the dilemma of getting across the board. If you pair in maulterfiends and some bikers, you have units that can catch up to the infiltrators quickly. You do have to sell out on the approach, but it's a workable way to run assault. If you want to shock your opponent, you can grab a mutilator or two and deep strike them (hopefully second turn). Then they eat some fire from other units or if they are ignored they put two power fists apiece to his face.
Anyway, that suggestion was mostly to find a way to get the bezerkers across the board.
And not necessarily a very good one.
As for the Eldar. They got wraithblades without having any assault vehicles.
Yeah, they got Wraithblades which are T6 and can have a 4+ invulnerable save and strike at Str7. Plus they can be in a Waveserpent which is much harder to kill than a Rhino.
Notice though that Phail Kelly wrote both of these books and in both books, all the assaulting units are really pretty bad. Hell even in Orks, assault units aren't as good as the ranged units. I'd blame this on the author.
A point I haven't seen yet is that the CSM codex was the first 6th ed codex. As such, the meta hadn't settled yet. Kelly isn't a seer. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Is the codex pure crap? No. There are plenty of decent options. So you don't like the heldrake? Fair enough, but GW will never please everyone with their model design. I don't like it either, but then again I'm a loyalist.
The main flaw I see with the codex is the lack of good delivery systems. Something like the locator beacons and an assault transport with a cheaper price tag would have been great.
The bottom line is no codex has the breadth of viable builds you wish for. Take a look at the lists forum if you don't believe me. That complaint should be a general GW complaint, not a specific CSM one.
A point I haven't seen yet is that the CSM codex was the first 6th ed codex. As such, the meta hadn't settled yet. Kelly isn't a seer. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Is the codex pure crap? No. There are plenty of decent options. So you don't like the heldrake? Fair enough, but GW will never please everyone with their model design. I don't like it either, but then again I'm a loyalist.
The main flaw I see with the codex is the lack of good delivery systems. Something like the locator beacons and an assault transport with a cheaper price tag would have been great.
The bottom line is no codex has the breadth of viable builds you wish for. Take a look at the lists forum if you don't believe me. That complaint should be a general GW complaint, not a specific CSM one.
No, the meta hadn't settled. That being said, what's his excuse for pretty much ignoring a rule set that had been out for quite a while? The Necrons actually get along with 6th ed WAY better than CSM and that's a 5th ed codex that was apparently written "with 6th ed in mind". So if Ward can do it with a book that was written in a previous edition, why couldn't Kelly do it with an actual 6th ed book? Please note, I'm not talking about making CSM insanely powerful as some of the Necron builds, but rather getting at the fact that on the whole, they simply do NOT function as a 6th ed army. Meta or no, there's no excuse for so basic a mistake imo.
Completely agree with your delivery systems comment. Even a cheap open topped "modified Rhino" would have sufficed (for me anyway).
Also, I actually got a chuckle out of the fact that Vetock gave DA the Porta-rack. So we have Dark Angels - an army meant to hunt down Chaos and a potentially fun fluffy piece of wargear you can give to one of your imperial torturers in order to gain control of the enemy's beacons ... and then we have Chaos .... who has no beacons. lol
ectoplastic wrote: A point I haven't seen yet is that the CSM codex was the first 6th ed codex. As such, the meta hadn't settled yet. Kelly isn't a seer. Did he make mistakes? Yes. Is the codex pure crap? No. There are plenty of decent options. So you don't like the heldrake? Fair enough, but GW will never please everyone with their model design. I don't like it either, but then again I'm a loyalist.
The main flaw I see with the codex is the lack of good delivery systems. Something like the locator beacons and an assault transport with a cheaper price tag would have been great.
The bottom line is no codex has the breadth of viable builds you wish for. Take a look at the lists forum if you don't believe me. That complaint should be a general GW complaint, not a specific CSM one.
So Kelly isn't a seer but Mat Ward is? Because his Grey Knights codex had mastery levels waaaay before 6th ever came out! Grey Knights (and to a much greater extent Necrons) were both clearly written while 6th was being developed.
How come Phail Kelly couldn't anticipate this? Oh right because he's a hack.
I think the ideal codex team would be Phil for fluff and Matt for rules, Vetock as a second opinion, and Cruddace getting repeatedly punched in the face in the corner.
I think the ideal codex team would be Phil for fluff and Matt for rules, Vetock as a second opinion, and Cruddace getting repeatedly punched in the face in the corner.
ectoplastic wrote: Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.
Hrm, his armies very well match the 6E metagame, the Necrons in particular either take excellent advantage of 6E mechanics or mitigate the biggest changes from 5E tremendously.
ectoplastic wrote: Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.
Yes, because GK, Blood Angels, and Space Marines are sooooo OP. If anything 6th toned down BA and GK and made them a lot more balanced. Necrons of course are very powerful since nothing in 6th edition actually harmed them but instead made them better.
Regardless, him writing "OP" codices wasn't the issue. It's the idea that Ward can actually write codices whilst keeping in mind the core rules and writing the army to fit the edition. Even Vetock, who's only written two 40k codices, has written Tau, which have ALL the tools to work well in 6th edition, hence why they're doing so well.
Vladsimpaler wrote: It's the idea that Ward can actually write codices whilst keeping in mind the core rules and writing the army to fit the edition.
That's not really just a Ward problem, it's more a general GW problem. They seem to have no requirement that a writer know the rules, and no proofreading whatsoever. Half of a new book is generally copypasted straight from the previous and no one makes sure the old text doesn't clash with the new in some way.
Kain wrote: I think the ideal codex team would be Phil for fluff and Matt for rules, Vetock as a second opinion, and Cruddace getting repeatedly punched in the face in the corner.
This is probably the conclusion rational people come to without biased thoughts warped by the internet. Phil has a lot of misteps with rules but is generally respected for his writing with the lore. Matt on the otherhand isn't everyones cup of tea with the lore but his rules are usually solid and interesting. When you read the stuff he implements to the game(not fluff). You want to play it. When I finally digested the CSM book it felt like the CSM entry was copy/pasted 6 times with minor changes.
ectoplastic wrote: Matt Ward isn't a seer. He just writes OP, broken codices with weird fluff.
Yes, because GK, Blood Angels, and Space Marines are sooooo OP. If anything 6th toned down BA and GK and made them a lot more balanced. Necrons of course are very powerful since nothing in 6th edition actually harmed them but instead made them better.
All of those are 5th ed codices. The only one written with 6th in mind was Necrons and its dominating the 6th meta. GK ruled when they came out. You say yourself BA needed toning down. SM were his first effort so he probably didn't have as much freedom in writing it, especially since they're the "face" of the game. Besides, SM had strong lists in 5th. Matt Ward writes codices that aim to take the lead spot in the power scheme. And his fluff is... well discussed already.
Vladsimpaler wrote: Even Vetock, who's only written two 40k codices, has written Tau, which have ALL the tools to work well in 6th edition, hence why they're doing so well.
The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.
Assault was nerfed in 6th, we all know that. C:CSM does do efforts to remedy the situation with spawn, cheap bikes, dirge casters, etc., but we live in a shooty meta and that's something Chaos is equipped to do well at as well with noise marines, oblits, cheap havocs and preds, heldrakes.
This brings me back to my point that the CSM book was the first 6th ed book and that it still works fine in it. Are some of the units bad? Of course, all codices have bad units. Are there units that dominate FOC slots? Yes, as is the case in every other codex. I understand being disappointed when the units you like are the ones left behind, but saying the codex is worthless because of it is going a bit far.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To answer the OP's question, I find the Chaos Marines to be whelming.
At its core, the problem is with the cost not the rules. Berzerkers are pretty awesome for what they do but 19-24 pts each makes them overpriced especially when you figure in the Lord tax you have to pay to make them troops. 1000 sons look pretty good until you figure they are gimped in HTH and can't respond ito being charged. Emp children - because of ignore cover are fairly effective. But then we come to plague marines... hmmm T5, FNP, Blight grenades and finally plague knives....
Now look at the base cost, and either berzerkers and 1000 sons are heavily over priced or plague marines are underpriced. Seeing we do have a baseline of CSM, I vote for true value of plague marines being too cheap.
Gharron wrote: Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete?
Compete where? Are you playing at Nova, or the Bay Area Open?
If not, then any army can compete. If your army is not able to 'complete' vs your friends, then the issue is more likely to do with your tactics/strategy than the army.
Gharron wrote: I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?
CSM have some of the best HQs in the game. Typhus is weak to STR 10 weapons, but will kick ass otherwise.
If you really want an HQ that will wreck face, take Abbadon.
The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.
Assault was nerfed in 6th, we all know that. C:CSM does do efforts to remedy the situation with spawn, cheap bikes, dirge casters, etc., but we live in a shooty meta and that's something Chaos is equipped to do well at as well with noise marines, oblits, cheap havocs and preds, heldrakes.
This brings me back to my point that the CSM book was the first 6th ed book and that it still works fine in it. Are some of the units bad? Of course, all codices have bad units. Are there units that dominate FOC slots? Yes, as is the case in every other codex. I understand being disappointed when the units you like are the ones left behind, but saying the codex is worthless because of it is going a bit far.
Your assertions there are largely incorrect. My Tau have a gunline build, a shoot 'n' scoot build, a infiltration build, a stealth build, the Farsight bomb build and several others that all play completely different to one another.
As far as the timing of the codexes - this is largely irrelevant when the core issues with the CSM book have almost nothing at all to do with the meta (or at least not in the way you seem to think it does). We don't have a "shooty meta" because someone suddenly came up with an insanely powerful gunline list. We live in a shooty meta because the rules in the core rulebook nerfed assault in a fairly brutal manner. You said it yourself - CC sucks in this edition. No doubt. This was plainly obvious to anyone who read the rules on the first go through. These same rules were available to Kelly well in advance of his writing CSM. So why then, did Kelly make so many new CC units? If he was so insistent on including them, then how hard would it really have been to hand out some DS beacons of some sort, or as many have suggested, some kind of assault Rhino or something like that?
So no, we live in shooty meta because the 6th ed rules have dictated that from day one. Why the other authors were able to take that into account where Kelly wasn't is beyond me, but the fact that his was the first book really isn't an excuse for that particular issue. I feel like your arguments are actually making him look worse.
ectoplastic wrote:
The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.
The Tau book would already have been finished by time the CSM book was released, or very nearly, the books are generally finished 6 months in advance of release date in order for graphics, formatting, test copies, etc to happen and for print runs generate sufficient stockpiles of books for sale.
Assault was nerfed in 6th, we all know that.
And herein lies the problem, much of the book is built around slow-ish heavy CC units
C:CSM does do efforts to remedy the situation with spawn, cheap bikes, dirge casters, etc., but we live in a shooty meta and that's something Chaos is equipped to do well at as well with noise marines, oblits, cheap havocs and preds, heldrakes.
Not nearly as well as they really need to, nor does it really fit thematically for most armies.
Oblits don't offer lots of firepower, they're an expensive swiss army knife that can deliver the right kind of weapon regardless of what it's facing (as long as you don't need to do it a 2nd turn in a row now...) but in terms of volume of firepower they're amongst some of the least cost efficient units in the game for that. Noise Marines likewise aren't cheap for what they offer (they're not awful, but certainly aren't cheap for that kind of firepower). Predators aren't much better than in previous editions except the trilas really if I'm remembering correctly. Heldrakes are really where it's at, but are a crutch.
ectoplastic wrote: The Tau codex came much later than the CSM codex and as such its writer had time to observe the meta. Tau, unlike CSM, also have basically only one army type: the gunline, heavily favored in 6th.
Do you think that codices just magically appear when GW snaps their fingers?
Codices have at least a 1 year lead time just for design, with concepting the new book and models, wriiting it, producing several model masters and figuring out which to go with. Add to that production - tooling molds, producing the initial run of models, books and accompanying paraphernalia like cards and stockpiling it around the world for distribution, you've got well over a year of production and design work on a single book.
Now consider that 5 books have been released in a very short amount of time for GW, and it's very like that these 5 books were at least started at the same time, or very close to each other, all before 6th edition hit. Main production, however, would have been going at about the same time for all of them, which means Vetock didn't have much more time at all than Kelly to do his Tau rules, and even then, the 6th edition meta hadn't resolved itself until the Tau book was likely done and in warehouses, much like Chaos.
Vetock is a good writer - and seems to have hit the nail on the head with Tau. Kelly is a good writer, but has his problems, and that's no different with Chaos. All codex writers have hits and misses, but attributing the success of the Tau book to Vetock having more time really isn't true.
Gharron wrote: Does anyone else feel like you have to run power units at all times to even compete?
Compete where? Are you playing at Nova, or the Bay Area Open?
If not, then any army can compete. If your army is not able to 'complete' vs your friends, then the issue is more likely to do with your tactics/strategy than the army.
Gharron wrote: I feel like our hq's (the named ones) don't even stack up, typhus challenges belial and man...belial ATE typhus. The guy even got a deny the witch roll for typhus's blast power. Am I just having a bad run of dice or is this army a little...underwhelming?
CSM have some of the best HQs in the game. Typhus is weak to STR 10 weapons, but will kick ass otherwise.
If you really want an HQ that will wreck face, take Abbadon.
I think I even said that in my opening. That I was totally new but I was feeling completely underwhelmed playing against deathwing and tau. Deathwing the second game I played against them took plasma cannons and I was almost tabled. Granted, My dice rolls weren't grant but I didn't say the codex was complete doodoo but I just don't feel like we're on the tier of other 6th armies and even necrons.
I shouldn't have to take one of the most expensive HQ's to have to "wreck face" I should be able to stand up in a fight with MOST of our hq's. If nurgle's CHAMPION can't stand up to belial in a fight because we have the randomness with orks coupled with space marines...things are gonna be a lot more luck than skill...
1/ The logic in the book is not there. From a strictly fluff place there is no way to accurately depict a mono god force in a way that makes you feel like you're playing a force. Lack of vehicle marks and the ability to give cult troops power armor is a big cripple in the "suspension of disbelief". So the fluff people feel very meh about this book.
Look at Dark Angels for good examples of how to make an army even though it is basically just Space Marines, give a feeling that you're actually playing Dark Angels. Have an HQ? Give it terminator armor? Inner Circle conferred. Etc etc...
2/ Phil Kellys view of Chaos is that of a 12 year olds. This is just my feeling given the way the units are. There isn't a whole lot of tactical options with Chaos, everything is random. Want to outflank a unit? Hope you like to play Slaanesh or take a Special Character or roll on the Warlords Chart. Want to Infilitrate? Hope you like Huron or roll on the Warlords Chart.
There is no subtlety in the Chaos book.
Phil Kelly gets Eldar, because he loves Eldar and wants to play like Eldar so Eldar are fast and hit hard. Phil Kelly sees Chaos as a bunch of psychopaths in it to spill blood and become Demons so they play like that, and if that's how you view Chaos then you're probably very happy with the book. If you view Chaos as something more subtle, or with more than one way to play then you probably not very happy with this book.
Phil Kelly gets Eldar, because he loves Eldar and wants to play like Eldar so Eldar are fast and hit hard. Phil Kelly sees Chaos as a bunch of psychopaths in it to spill blood and become Demons so they play like that, and if that's how you view Chaos then you're probably very happy with the book. If you view Chaos as something more subtle, or with more than one way to play then you probably not very happy with this book.
I can't even agree with that, Possessed (Aka, daemons in living flesh suits) are not Daemons of X, they are marked, Obliterators and Warp Talons, do not get Daemon of X, Warp spawn, which while not daemonic in a full sense, do not even get this (They did in Fantasy for sake!), if Possessed gained Daemons of X, they would've been Far Better with those costs.
Not to mention Gift of Mutation is overpriced, so you can't even play a fully mutated squad to begin with because of how bad it can be, and should the model become a DP later on, he'll be penalized and lose all his mutations and gear! Fantasy had the right idea on the mutation chart at least. LD check for spawn/princedom, get to keep all your as a DP. (For those who question how a bike can be given to a Daemon Prince, see DoomRider)
Gharron wrote: I think I even said that in my opening. That I was totally new but I was feeling completely underwhelmed playing against deathwing and tau. Deathwing the second game I played against them took plasma cannons and I was almost tabled. Granted, My dice rolls weren't grant but I didn't say the codex was complete doodoo but I just don't feel like we're on the tier of other 6th armies and even necrons.
It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better
Gharron wrote: I shouldn't have to take one of the most expensive HQ's to have to "wreck face" I should be able to stand up in a fight with MOST of our hq's. If nurgle's CHAMPION can't stand up to belial in a fight because we have the randomness with orks coupled with space marines...things are gonna be a lot more luck than skill...
First, Abbadon is not that much more expensive than Typhus. I'm saying if you want a lord who can take nearly any other ICs lunch money, take Abbadon. O
Run the math. You will see that Typhus will kill Belial more often than not. You got bad dice rolls. It happens. Don't let that dissuade you from the army.
It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better
So...SO true. Exalted this post. I wish more people would look in the mirror once in a while and say: "the only reason I struggled with unit X is because I haven't done it enough to gauge it". Can't even count the number of threads wherein unimaginative sorts try to tell you X and Y doesn't work and they haven't even tried it.
Sometimes the answers are right under your nose. Just need more practice.
Gharron wrote: I think I even said that in my opening. That I was totally new but I was feeling completely underwhelmed playing against deathwing and tau. Deathwing the second game I played against them took plasma cannons and I was almost tabled. Granted, My dice rolls weren't grant but I didn't say the codex was complete doodoo but I just don't feel like we're on the tier of other 6th armies and even necrons.
It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better
Gharron wrote: I shouldn't have to take one of the most expensive HQ's to have to "wreck face" I should be able to stand up in a fight with MOST of our hq's. If nurgle's CHAMPION can't stand up to belial in a fight because we have the randomness with orks coupled with space marines...things are gonna be a lot more luck than skill...
First, Abbadon is not that much more expensive than Typhus. I'm saying if you want a lord who can take nearly any other ICs lunch money, take Abbadon. O
Run the math. You will see that Typhus will kill Belial more often than not. You got bad dice rolls. It happens. Don't let that dissuade you from the army.
how about counts as abbadon? i dont like abbadon, he looks like a fridge, i dont like his top knot and i dont want black legion.
and while we at it, my forgeworld dreadnoughts counts as helldrake and all these guys are actaully plague marines
It's not the army, its the learning curve. I played a deathwing army at Adepticon in my 3rd round, and I tabled him. Take heart in this -- as you can increase your skill level in the game through study, practice, and reflection. You can't make a codex better
So...SO true. Exalted this post. I wish more people would look in the mirror once in a while and say: "the only reason I struggled with unit X is because I haven't done it enough to gauge it". Can't even count the number of threads wherein unimaginative sorts try to tell you X and Y doesn't work and they haven't even tried it.
Sometimes the answers are right under your nose. Just need more practice.
nah not really. the game is not that complex or complicated, gw's target market is children after all. if you have eyes and a brain you can probably figure out that psycannon is better than psilencer for example. i dont need to test psilencer to know that it sucks. the broken stuff tends to leap off the page.
kb305 wrote: nah not really. the game is not that complex or complicated, gw's target market is children after all. if you have eyes and a brain you can probably figure out that psycannon is better than psilencer for example. i dont need to test psilencer to know that it sucks. the broken stuff tends to leap off the page.
Ah, this debate again... A few months ago there was a big thread on this.
Being 'good' at 40k is much more than just knowing what units are considered the best. Its the way to use them. It an understanding of how you can dictate your opponents movement. Its about target priority. Its about knowing your opponents army as well as you know your own. Its about a wealth of different aspects that all accumulate to make a complex game.
Some people say that the skill ceiling is very good, and that the only way people win major events is 'luck'. If it were pure 'luck', then you would not see the same people in the top tables. The last defense people made in regards to their 'luck theory' was that top winners like Tony Kopach are cheaters. That's complete rubbish.
If you start winning all the games against your friends, then I suggest attending some national events. I consider myself a good player at both 40k and chess, but found myself humbled when I started attending national events. There are some amazing players out there. When you play with them, you will learn how high the skill ceiling is.
HQs: the Chaos Lord might be the best non-unique HQ in the game. If you can't work this HQ, then you need to recharge your creativity center. This thing is a bargain and is incredibly versatile.
Sorcerer: telepath is a great utility unit. Can do a ton for a unit.
Named Characters: Abby, Huron, Typhus, Ahriman, these are good units that will earn their points back most games.
5 good HQ... Um, that's a great selection. Most codices would be so lucky. Certainly not underwhelming.
Elites: terminators, plague marines, noise marines, and if you can use constraint, chosen will get their points back. I am flabbergasted that people don't like CSM Termies. They are a very solid unit.
So 3 good elites... Again, excellent, especially given the flexibility and options of the Termies.
Troops: now don't compare to other codices. All that a troop needs to do is hold objectives, be flexible, and earn back points. Both the CSM and the cultists (which don't need to be zombies) can usually do both if not all three.
Two usable troops. One that is crazy customizable, and one that is very economic.
Fast attack: the only problem with this slot is that it has three phenomenal choices. Bikes, Spawn, and Heldrake are all bargains and brutes on the table. If you're not filling the FA slot in every game and losing, that's why.
Heavy: Oblits? Good. Vindicators? Good. Defilers? (Used right, very good... Hi PA, bye).
I'm not sure what else you could want. How are people not finding good lists here? Blinders or silly expectations?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if you use FW. Fun stuff there too.
HQs: the Chaos Lord might be the best non-unique HQ in the game. If you can't work this HQ, then you need to recharge your creativity center. This thing is a bargain and is incredibly versatile.
Sorcerer: telepath is a great utility unit. Can do a ton for a unit.
Named Characters: Abby, Huron, Typhus, Ahriman, these are good units that will earn their points back most games.
5 good HQ... Um, that's a great selection. Most codices would be so lucky. Certainly not underwhelming.
Elites: terminators, plague marines, noise marines, and if you can use constraint, chosen will get their points back. I am flabbergasted that people don't like CSM Termies. They are a very solid unit.
So 3 good elites... Again, excellent, especially given the flexibility and options of the Termies.
Troops: now don't compare to other codices. All that a troop needs to do is hold objectives, be flexible, and earn back points. Both the CSM and the cultists (which don't need to be zombies) can usually do both if not all three.
Two usable troops. One that is crazy customizable, and one that is very economic.
Fast attack: the only problem with this slot is that it has three phenomenal choices. Bikes, Spawn, and Heldrake are all bargains and brutes on the table. If you're not filling the FA slot in every game and losing, that's why.
Heavy: Oblits? Good. Vindicators? Good. Defilers? (Used right, very good... Hi PA, bye).
I'm not sure what else you could want. How are people not finding good lists here? Blinders or silly expectations?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if you use FW. Fun stuff there too.
To be rather honest people don't really consider cult troops to be elites and I've rarely (actually never) seen anybody deploy Plague Marines nor Noise Marines as elites. And our termies.... eeeeh they are good at termicide? For the most part our elites are pretty bad. Now HQs? Oh heck yes chaos has a great hq selection! I don't care who you are, our list has some of the greatest hqs in the game. The only thing I can think of is maybe the Ehterial and Necron Lord beating them (oh and nids since their hq is a vital compoment of their army)
Cultists are phenominal! Marines? Eh. I would say you still need to compare. Compare them to DA for example. In every single way they are better. Whilst we are a point cheaper, we only become equally priced at 10 and cheapr when we shove 11+ in a pack. Even then this ignores the fact that these units have a bad rule compared to DA with one of the greatest rules in the game as well as another special rule. (especially since you were saying how our hq choice is possibly one of the greatest in the games as well as chaos lord being one of the best. If we can compare there but not on troops something is rather wrong)
Heavy: No to Deffie. I use him but he is overpriced for what he actually is. A battlecannon whom for some odd reason is costed at almost 200. Now replace deffie on your list with predator. It is a cheap 3 shot (one twinlinked) lascannon vehicle. Also havoc are great.
And mentioning FW really isn't that useful. Sadly a lot of competitive corners (and even friendly gamers) have the flawed perception that FW is broken. Along with that, how much FW stuff is chaos space marine oriented anyways? The only things I can remember is the big apoc units and FINALLY a drop pod.
I am dissapointed in the codex. For a variety of reasons. I do not deny this fact. There are many flaws with it. And it is still the least liked codex of the new codices to be released. This codex holds the ire of 6th edition whilst the others have died out in compliant shockingly quickly. That must attest to something.
Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.
But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.
Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.
But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.
On the DP. I would kinda say eeeeeh. It's a unit you have to make into a deathstar to make even slightly useful.
But the problem is that if we don't compare troops than what do we have? If we looked at Thousand Sons or Khornate berzerkers with no comparison well then they seem great. It is their execution in the battlefield in comparison to other units that makes the determining factor all the more important. Admittedly I have sworn to myself to not take the heldrake until my friends have weapons to take it down. Each time I deployed it neither of us had fun. I only mention troops because troops are rather important as you are required to take them. Cultists are great simply because you can take a blob of them and they are so cheap you can spend those points on better more worthwhile units.
And I ask, why is it that the Chaos codex is so heavily loathed long after its release in comparison to other 6th edidtion codices (and on a side note, I apologize if I seem rude. I don't intend to be. And frankly I concur there are some great units. Heck I went through and added some yet even then it saddens me that I cannot really build a Khornate army and a Tzeentch army is out of the question. And I also don't understand why we have daemons with marks, oblits that aren't fearless, and vehicles that cannot take marks. Along with that, it just seems it cannot represent much. Chaos is a diverse term. It is supposed to represent recently fallen members to people that went to chaos before the emperor had even been entombed. It seems to be tryng to appeal to everything but by doing so appeals to nothing. Finally, I confess I wish we had some of the capabilities of the Space Marines. Vulkan, etc. Each of them makes their playstile unique. Chaos Space Marines don't really bar making certain units troops.) In the end, I can live with this and say the fluff is still pretty good!
Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.
I think your missing the point with what chaos codex is and what people wanted it to be . It is a codex for a black legion army , what people wanted it to be is to have playable legion armies.
If zerkers suck then what does a World Eater get ? An item on a lord the 1kson player gets nothing , but GW hates them , so he is used to that. all the non cult marines end up with clone armies that are differen't shade of nurgle and maybe they don't want to play nurgle with plague marines being finecast.
The Demon Prince is an ok HQ as ally to demons . For csm it is a high cost flying unit that will be very alone and if you take him you won't have pms as troops ,because there wont be enough points to buy a lord .
Ahriman downright sucks. Abadon is a slow melee monster. Awesome if someone lets you get off a charge not so good when he doesnt and just like with the Demon Prince , you won't get Plaguemarines with him as troops. Tyfus is just as slow as abadon , but he is the source one of the more annoying lists out there . He costs a lot , but if someone doesn't want any friends , he probably is ok. Huron is cheap and can be a psyker and has a very nice warlord trait. Awesome dude .
And points are a problem , if someone makes a chaos list without helldrakes or plagumarines he is playing a SW light army for the same points with fewer options and the same problems and fewer counters to those problems then SW .
But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.
Yeah with helldrakes and plagumarines , I think chaos player did figure that out by now.
Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.
I think your missing the point with what chaos codex is and what people wanted it to be . It is a codex for a black legion army , what people wanted it to be is to have playable legion armies.
If zerkers suck then what does a World Eater get ? An item on a lord the 1kson player gets nothing , but GW hates them , so he is used to that. all the non cult marines end up with clone armies that are differen't shade of nurgle and maybe they don't want to play nurgle with plague marines being finecast.
The Demon Prince is an ok HQ as ally to demons . For csm it is a high cost flying unit that will be very alone and if you take him you won't have pms as troops ,because there wont be enough points to buy a lord .
Ahriman downright sucks. Abadon is a slow melee monster. Awesome if someone lets you get off a charge not so good when he doesnt and just like with the Demon Prince , you won't get Plaguemarines with him as troops. Tyfus is just as slow as abadon , but he is the source one of the more annoying lists out there . He costs a lot , but if someone doesn't want any friends , he probably is ok. Huron is cheap and can be a psyker and has a very nice warlord trait. Awesome dude .
And points are a problem , if someone makes a chaos list without helldrakes or plagumarines he is playing a SW light army for the same points with fewer options and the same problems and fewer counters to those problems then SW .
But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.
Yeah with helldrakes and plagumarines , I think chaos player did figure that out by now.
Don't forget cheap cheap cultists and ZOMBIIIIES! So much nurgle in this list.... And that is it! It is the Black Legion. Even with them coming around claiming it is warbbands. They threw away every legion but one and then failed to even represent the Black Legion. Want to have god specific daemon weapons? Well unless you are khorne then no god specific weapon for you! Where are the rest? Where is my World Eaters hq? How do I properly represent Night Wing? Do I throw in an army of raptors? But they cannot be troops and they don't have night fighting which is considered rather fluffy of their scare and stealth tactics. I love me some Tzeentch. Yet even then it is a bad idea to even make a Tzeentch army. Mark those Space Marines I dare you. A 6+ invuln is worthless on power armour marines and frankly overpriced.
I wouldn't say Ahriman downright sucks. I would probably go along the lines of saying he is okay against armies without good anti-psyker capabilities. Granted even then that 6+ deny the witch is disgustingly unentertaining. Abbadon isn't worthless if not in close combat. Considering he gives preferred enemy to units close to him! But I will concur that a big drawback is no troop Plaguemarines.
And I concur with your statement. If we took away comparisons then we could claim that bad codices were actually phenominal! Points make a difference. Even 15 minutes can chance the fate of a game. Heck that is enough for a plasma gun.
Again, comparing troops is just going to frustrate you. Yes others are better for points. But we're only losing 15 points at most in a game. We all know our HQs are least that undercosted, not to mention bikers, and helldrakes are a steal. If troops points are frustrating you, it's the big picture you're missing. If you start picking out one unit and comparing it to codex A and then another to codex B, and it offends you to take the good units, and then you compare to a silly codex that was completely OP, then yeah, crazy expectations won't be met.
I think your missing the point with what chaos codex is and what people wanted it to be . It is a codex for a black legion army , what people wanted it to be is to have playable legion armies.
If zerkers suck then what does a World Eater get ? An item on a lord the 1kson player gets nothing , but GW hates them , so he is used to that. all the non cult marines end up with clone armies that are differen't shade of nurgle and maybe they don't want to play nurgle with plague marines being finecast.
The Demon Prince is an ok HQ as ally to demons . For csm it is a high cost flying unit that will be very alone and if you take him you won't have pms as troops ,because there wont be enough points to buy a lord .
Ahriman downright sucks. Abadon is a slow melee monster. Awesome if someone lets you get off a charge not so good when he doesnt and just like with the Demon Prince , you won't get Plaguemarines with him as troops. Tyfus is just as slow as abadon , but he is the source one of the more annoying lists out there . He costs a lot , but if someone doesn't want any friends , he probably is ok. Huron is cheap and can be a psyker and has a very nice warlord trait. Awesome dude .
And points are a problem , if someone makes a chaos list without helldrakes or plagumarines he is playing a SW light army for the same points with fewer options and the same problems and fewer counters to those problems then SW .
But if you want to sit down, look at your meta, and build a face wrecking list... You can.
Yeah with helldrakes and plagumarines , I think chaos player did figure that out by now.
Don't forget cheap cheap cultists and ZOMBIIIIES! So much nurgle in this list.... And that is it! It is the Black Legion. Even with them coming around claiming it is warbbands. They threw away every legion but one and then failed to even represent the Black Legion. Want to have god specific daemon weapons? Well unless you are khorne then no god specific weapon for you! Where are the rest? Where is my World Eaters hq? How do I properly represent Night Wing? Do I throw in an army of raptors? But they cannot be troops and they don't have night fighting which is considered rather fluffy of their scare and stealth tactics. I love me some Tzeentch. Yet even then it is a bad idea to even make a Tzeentch army. Mark those Space Marines I dare you. A 6+ invuln is worthless on power armour marines and frankly overpriced.
I wouldn't say Ahriman downright sucks. I would probably go along the lines of saying he is okay against armies without good anti-psyker capabilities. Granted even then that 6+ deny the witch is disgustingly unentertaining. Abbadon isn't worthless if not in close combat. Considering he gives preferred enemy to units close to him! But I will concur that a big drawback is no troop Plaguemarines.
And I concur with your statement. If we took away comparisons then we could claim that bad codices were actually phenominal! Points make a difference. Even 15 minutes can chance the fate of a game. Heck that is enough for a plasma gun.
It's this I think that bother me most. I've had some terrible dice rolls in a game which led me to be a little underwhelmed with typhus and termis in general. But, as I started looking inwardly at my list and trying to understand exactly where I went wrong I'm just not pleased with most units. Everyone says this unit is bad that unit is unusable unless you want this or that. I'm just not sure where to go other than to nurgle for most things. Tzeentch doesn't have anything to garner his points cost for MOST units. Slaanesh is great for combat mediocre to poor for everything else. Nurgle is...nurgle and khorne is a liability because of the BRB. I'm just not sure where to take my army to feel like I can even put up a fight other than to do what everyone else is doing and take PM and lots of heldrakes. I don't really WANT to do that though and I'm working on a list with vindis bikes heldrakes normal csm's and some things to make me feel like an iron warrior...
I just feel like the "variety" is what the power of the book is SUPPOSED to be and it just fell waaaay short.
HQs: the Chaos Lord might be the best non-unique HQ in the game. If you can't work this HQ, then you need to recharge your creativity center. This thing is a bargain and is incredibly versatile.
Sorcerer: telepath is a great utility unit. Can do a ton for a unit.
Named Characters: Abby, Huron, Typhus, Ahriman, these are good units that will earn their points back most games.
5 good HQ... Um, that's a great selection. Most codices would be so lucky. Certainly not underwhelming.
Elites: terminators, plague marines, noise marines, and if you can use constraint, chosen will get their points back. I am flabbergasted that people don't like CSM Termies. They are a very solid unit.
So 3 good elites... Again, excellent, especially given the flexibility and options of the Termies.
Troops: now don't compare to other codices. All that a troop needs to do is hold objectives, be flexible, and earn back points. Both the CSM and the cultists (which don't need to be zombies) can usually do both if not all three.
Two usable troops. One that is crazy customizable, and one that is very economic.
Fast attack: the only problem with this slot is that it has three phenomenal choices. Bikes, Spawn, and Heldrake are all bargains and brutes on the table. If you're not filling the FA slot in every game and losing, that's why.
Heavy: Oblits? Good. Vindicators? Good. Defilers? (Used right, very good... Hi PA, bye).
I'm not sure what else you could want. How are people not finding good lists here? Blinders or silly expectations?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if you use FW. Fun stuff there too.
Sorry, but no. Most of that stuff is barely feasible on the table, let alone 'good'.
Sorcerer: Taking any mark forces you to pick powers from the awful chaos table. Almost everyone can pick Telepathy, so that's hardly special. No Divination.
Named Characters: Typhus is situational at best, and Ahriman will only make his points back if the enemy plays using an ouija board as a general. Abby won't fit into mot games (nor should he).
Elites: terminators are thoroughly boring and still only useful for the same combi-melta gimmick from the last edition, only worse because now they cannot be guided when they DS. No one sane would ever use the cult troops in the elite slot. Sternguard get picked even if they are not scoring. Who's lining up for non-scoring berserker or Thousand Sons? People have to hold their noses to use them when they are made troops! Chosen are rather short-ranged without their Infiltrate and get picked off easily.
Troops: The only real plus basic CSM have is being able to take double special weapons, which is the same thing as last edition. They are still hamstrung by bad Challenge rules that will make you lose your champion to Nobs, Striking Scorpion exarchs and whatnot. Cultists are serviceable, but insanely boring. I'd pay six points for each if they had a unique feel to them, like being able to be sacrificed to give your champion bonuses in combat or to fuel spells, or by letting CSM units fire into enemies they are in CC with because no one gives a crap about them. But no, challenge-happy IG rejects it is.
Heavy: Defilers are -crap-. They might give a good show against utter newbies, but come on. Mediocre WS AND BS because Gw decided that daemons who spent milllenia killing are bad at it, can't ever fire all of its weapons because one messes the others up, almost impossible to get cover for and lame AV that gets popped by missiles or even autocannons. All that for close to Land Raider cost? You can probably bring in a whole IG ally detachment for 150% of his cost.
Fast Attack: Definitely good here. No argument, though again the OP is about missed opportunities, and Warp Talons definitely qualify. Claws that rend through reality can't pierce artificer armor? Does anyone proofread this stuff?
The Daemon Prince is so bad I fear my HQs becoming one far more than a Spawn when rolling on the silly Boon table. At least my biker lord is still fast and a tarpit if he spans up, instead of a lone T5 MC on foot about to be IDed by the first railcannon, Dread or Wraithguard that strolls by.
The Daemon Prince is so bad I fear my HQs becoming one far more than a Spawn when rolling on the silly Boon table. At least my biker lord is still fast and a tarpit if he spans up, instead of a lone T5 MC on foot about to be IDed by the first railcannon, Dread or Wraithguard that strolls by.
I have the same fear, I wonder just why they wouldn't allow the unit to keep it's wargear/mutations.
So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.
MWHistorian wrote: So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.
Better question. So I wanted to make a Tzeentch army.... Thousand Sons are bad, marking any of the troops with Tzeentch is bad. The only units it is arguably good on are creatures with an invuln of 4+ or 5+ and for the most part this is vastly inferior to Nurgle anyways.
MWHistorian wrote: So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.
Better question. So I wanted to make a Tzeentch army.... Thousand Sons are bad, marking any of the troops with Tzeentch is bad. The only units it is arguably good on are creatures with an invuln of 4+ or 5+ and for the most part this is vastly inferior to Nurgle anyways.
Actually the choices that have a 4 or 5 the Tzeentch Mark is so overpriced that it's just better to go with the +1T
MWHistorian wrote: So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.
So the question you should be asking is "Why to 1k sons suck?" The answer to the question is "Today's Meta".
If all the armies are lugging around lots of MEQ meltas to deal with a armor, then 1k sons actually are not as bad of a fit. They have AP3 bolts, and enjoy a 4++ to stop the melta/PG shots. The 1k sons even come with a built in bolt from the sorcerer that can hurt enemy armor.
However, the meta is exactly the opposite. Tanks are scarce. The majority of armies are xenos, so the AP3 is wasted, and anti-infantry firepower is common so the 1k sons are forced to use their 3+ vs many shots instead of the 4++ vs few shots.
The end result is that the 1k sons just can't compete in competitive play today.
MWHistorian wrote: So...if I wanted to play a Thousand Sons army I could.....yeah. Um....play plague marines? That's a broken codex. Berzerkers that suck so making a Khorne army is not advisable? Broken.
They could have added some options to the Landraiders to make them less generic and feel more like chaos. A lot in the codex feels too generic.
So the question you should be asking is "Why to 1k sons suck?" The answer to the question is "Today's Meta".
If all the armies are lugging around lots of MEQ meltas to deal with a armor, then 1k sons actually are not as bad of a fit. They have AP3 bolts, and enjoy a 4++ to stop the melta/PG shots. The 1k sons even come with a built in bolt from the sorcerer that can hurt enemy armor.
However, the meta is exactly the opposite. Tanks are scarce. The majority of armies are xenos, so the AP3 is wasted, and anti-infantry firepower is common so the 1k sons are forced to use their 3+ vs many shots instead of the 4++ vs few shots.
The end result is that the 1k sons just can't compete in competitive play today.
The problem is they couldn't compete in a meta like that before in 5th edition.
The thing of the matter is, they have AP3 yes? But it's not exactly well spent AP3, you can get AP3 cheaper, more effective, and more cost-effective then the Thousand Sons would put out.
Their main problem is their slowness (and lack of overwatch), their 50+ point sorcerer, and the lack of good spells for said sorcerer (The primaris is just 'okayish') the first skill is horrible outside of a Sorcerer, the second skill is honestly good, and they can't get the third. (Which would be poor on them anyways).
They fill a Niche that is far better done elsewhere.
Their main problem is their slowness (and lack of overwatch), their 50+ point sorcerer, and the lack of good spells for said sorcerer (The primaris is just 'okayish') the first skill is horrible outside of a Sorcerer, the second skill is honestly good, and they can't get the third. (Which would be poor on them anyways).
And lack of 2 special weapons csm or plaguemarines get .
Oh and costing a metric buttload and being utterly terrible in assault, like firewarrior level bad for their points. Actually worse, at least fire warriors can overwatch like gods.
Compare this to Noise and Plague Marines and cry.
Actually with an Icon Noise Marines make Rubrics obsolete, being tougher against most shooting, arguably having a better gun due to volume of fire and ignoring cover, getting some sweet special weapons, being endlessly better in assault, oh and not being slow as crap and not derping out when the sergeant bites the dust.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The problem is they couldn't compete in a meta like that before in 5th edition.
I am not sure about that. The book came out in 6th edition, and you can't compare the way they played in 5th to how the codex/BRB changed them in 6th.
The only way you would know if if people played 5th edition armies against it.
Either way, its an academic exercise. They are a very poor matchup against all the armies you commonly see today.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The problem is they couldn't compete in a meta like that before in 5th edition.
I am not sure about that. The book came out in 6th edition, and you can't compare the way they played in 5th to how the codex/BRB changed them in 6th.
The only way you would know if if people played 5th edition armies against it.
Either way, its an academic exercise. They are a very poor matchup against all the armies you commonly see today.
There's no major changes between 4th and 6th thousand sons.
Things:
Same point per model
Aspiring sorcerer is 12 points cheaper then the 4th edition dex (Aspiring Sorcerer with DoomBolt)
VOTLW for 6th.
That's it.
So you can Very Easily compare the two. Infact it's worse in 6th because of Champion of Chaos for the Aspiring Sorcerer.
It's this I think that bother me most. I've had some terrible dice rolls in a game which led me to be a little underwhelmed with typhus and termis in general. But, as I started looking inwardly at my list and trying to understand exactly where I went wrong I'm just not pleased with most units. Everyone says this unit is bad that unit is unusable unless you want this or that. I'm just not sure where to go other than to nurgle for most things. Tzeentch doesn't have anything to garner his points cost for MOST units. Slaanesh is great for combat mediocre to poor for everything else. Nurgle is...nurgle and khorne is a liability because of the BRB. I'm just not sure where to take my army to feel like I can even put up a fight other than to do what everyone else is doing and take PM and lots of heldrakes. I don't really WANT to do that though and I'm working on a list with vindis bikes heldrakes normal csm's and some things to make me feel like an iron warrior...
I just feel like the "variety" is what the power of the book is SUPPOSED to be and it just fell waaaay short.
I am not sure what you expect from an Iron Warriors army. They are probably the CSM faction that gained the most from the new codex and 6th edition. You can bring havocs, obliterators (who possibly originated in the Iron Warriors), vindicators and predators. The majority of the new units are geared for them as well since they are daemonic machines. The forgefiend, maulerfiend and yes, even the heldrake are the fusion of machine and daemon.
Plus in 6th edition you can take fortifications which the Iron Warriors love. Furthermore, you can take allies. This gives you access to artillery batteries from the IG.
Now to go back to the 4th edition codex. The Iron Warrior special rules allowed you to take more heavy support at the expense of fast attack and they allowed you to take a basilisk from IG. The ally rules allow you to do both now. By the way, the only reason why Iron Warriors were popular back in 4th edition was the extra heavy support choice. The reason that was the case was that it allowed you to cram in more obliterators in the army. So even when choices were bountiful, people just spammed the best unit.
The ally rules allow you to do both now. By the way, the only reason why Iron Warriors were popular back in 4th edition was the extra heavy support choice.
And not because they could take 9 obliterators as elite ?
I think the problem lies with the fact that they have tried to write the codex to please everybody and done a gash job. no legion/cult has been done particularly well with maybe the exception of nurgle but even then it's not that amazing. The book needs more god specific units instead of one unit that can have different marks for example a predator not with las cannons but kitted out with sonic weaponry. but then we would have a huge dex. We would need multiple supplements.
Tzeentch - don't really have to explain this one really obvious elite/troop choice and hq slot weak and overcosted
Could be fixed with better psychic powers and 5++ a caster specific unit possibly fast moving
Khorne - the blood god really? Death company are better. Khorne bezerkers very limited acess to war gear over costed no decent transport. Hq on a jugga with axe is nice combo though. Other than this no options again.
Could be fixed with access to assault vehicles acess to more melee weapos or specialist weapons similar to deathwing knights possibly, something similar to Baal predator or a land raider redeemer
Slaneesh - noise marines their ok but but I feel they are overcosted for what they offer and yet again outside of noise marines nothing of use
Could be fixed making the sonic weaponry more diverse with different firing options similar to ion weaponry wouldn't be hard to fluff out different pitch and amplitude etc vehicles with sonic weaponry. Or even a drug fuelled combat unit similar to combat drugs for de
Nurgle - this is rather nice but some what expensive still I would like to see nurgle/death guard specific unit outside of plague marines, would like to see more emphasis on spreading the plague with bombs/templates nerve gas etc flesh eating nano plague weaponry bolters are tired and boring poisoned weaponry etc
Alpha legion - nothing
Iron warriors - did ok out of this warp smith, maulerfiend and forgefiend
Night lords - warp talons would be nice and fun to you use if they were a bit cheaper
Black legion abandon and his chosen I think this is underrated this is essentially a build it yourself squad that can take advantage of many combinations 5 chosen with 4 plasma guns even slanneesh squads in a rhino with a dirge caster can be good would wreck face against meq, teq and vehicles
As stated above there is so many areas to address imagine if they tried to blood angels dark angels black Templars grey knights and ultramarines back into one book
Vaktathi wrote: Actually Oblits were Elites in the 3.5E book, but a 0-1 for everyone but IW's, while IW's could field 9 of them plus 4 Heavy Support choices
Thanks for the correction, I did not have my old codex handy.
I think my point about the codex still stands. Iron Warriors did not gain popularity due to their awesome fluff at that time. That was just the way to spam a strong unit at the time. Even though other good options existed in the book, people took the strongest one.
Thanks for the correction, I did not have my old codex handy.
I think my point about the codex still stands. Iron Warriors did not gain popularity due to their awesome fluff at that time. That was just the way to spam a strong unit at the time. Even though other good options existed in the book, people took the strongest one.
And SW or GK were popular because of their awesome fluff? no army gets popular because of fluff .
Khorne - the blood god really? Death company are better. Khorne bezerkers very limited acess to war gear over costed no decent transport. Hq on a jugga with axe is nice combo though. Other than this no options again.
my friend had this crazy idea to change how demonic possession works . Nurgle would repair stuff, Slanesh could use its warp amps just like wave serpents can use their shields , tzeench stuff make the tanks lvl 1 sorc and khorn stuff would change their transports in to melee units. He also wanted two different possession . One was a normal mark with some extra rules . the other was suppose to be a high cost upgrade that would change vehicles in to MC , where wounds and toughness would be set by how high the av of the vehicle was . The vehicles would also lose transport capacity and BS lowered .
To fix Mark of Tzeentch I would just return it to a 5+ invulnerable if you didn't have one to begin with. Same cost. Then it's roughly even with mark of nurgle. Lower the cost on things that already have an invulnerable.
Thousand Sons should have relentless instead of slow and purposeful while their Sorceror is alive. 22 points a model seems more fair for what they do. Ahriman and Tzeentch marked Sorcerors should get access to divination.
I would improve the Lore of Tzeentch by making Tzeentch's Firestorm have an AP of D6 instead of -. Boon of Mutation should either not cause a hit or not be able to turn you into a spawn, both is overkill, especially at S4, I'd lean towards getting rid of the hit. Breath of Change should be warp charge 1 considering Doombolt is better than it.
Oh and Scrolls of Magnus are kind of balls, I might think about them at 25 points but 45 is absurd for one mastery level. One mastery level with a random discipline and you can't take the primaris. Oh and rolling to get your power kills you.
And SW or GK were popular because of their awesome fluff? no army gets popular because of fluff .
Exactly.
The OP started the thread because he doesn't like heldrakes, obliterators or nurgle. Because of that he feels that the chaos codex is under powered and uncreative. He would like to have more options that do not involve taking any of those options.
Throughout the thread I have been trying to show that the codex is not underpowered. It is of medium strength and that the problems that people have with it are not unique to the CSM codex. As part of that proof, I was brought up the supposed salad days of chaos space marines when choices were abundant and everything was strong. During those times people still gravitated only to a select number of units. Things are no worse than they have been before, that's what I am trying to get across.
And SW or GK were popular because of their awesome fluff? no army gets popular because of fluff .
Exactly.
The OP started the thread because he doesn't like heldrakes, obliterators or nurgle. Because of that he feels that the chaos codex is under powered and uncreative. He would like to have more options that do not involve taking any of those options.
Throughout the thread I have been trying to show that the codex is not underpowered. It is of medium strength and that the problems that people have with it are not unique to the CSM codex. As part of that proof, I was brought up the supposed salad days of chaos space marines when choices were abundant and everything was strong. During those times people still gravitated only to a select number of units. Things are no worse than they have been before, that's what I am trying to get across.
And yet that does not mean that the extra choices that were in the book were completely useless, far from it as many other choices were still very viable. I still have blastmasters on my predators and dreads afterall before the Alessio/Gav "work" on 4th edition. I could still take Cult Terminators and have a full Legion/Warband and still do very well.
It's this I think that bother me most. I've had some terrible dice rolls in a game which led me to be a little underwhelmed with typhus and termis in general. But, as I started looking inwardly at my list and trying to understand exactly where I went wrong I'm just not pleased with most units. Everyone says this unit is bad that unit is unusable unless you want this or that. I'm just not sure where to go other than to nurgle for most things. Tzeentch doesn't have anything to garner his points cost for MOST units. Slaanesh is great for combat mediocre to poor for everything else. Nurgle is...nurgle and khorne is a liability because of the BRB. I'm just not sure where to take my army to feel like I can even put up a fight other than to do what everyone else is doing and take PM and lots of heldrakes. I don't really WANT to do that though and I'm working on a list with vindis bikes heldrakes normal csm's and some things to make me feel like an iron warrior...
I just feel like the "variety" is what the power of the book is SUPPOSED to be and it just fell waaaay short.
I am not sure what you expect from an Iron Warriors army. They are probably the CSM faction that gained the most from the new codex and 6th edition. You can bring havocs, obliterators (who possibly originated in the Iron Warriors), vindicators and predators. The majority of the new units are geared for them as well since they are daemonic machines. The forgefiend, maulerfiend and yes, even the heldrake are the fusion of machine and daemon.
Plus in 6th edition you can take fortifications which the Iron Warriors love. Furthermore, you can take allies. This gives you access to artillery batteries from the IG.
Now to go back to the 4th edition codex. The Iron Warrior special rules allowed you to take more heavy support at the expense of fast attack and they allowed you to take a basilisk from IG. The ally rules allow you to do both now. By the way, the only reason why Iron Warriors were popular back in 4th edition was the extra heavy support choice. The reason that was the case was that it allowed you to cram in more obliterators in the army. So even when choices were bountiful, people just spammed the best unit.
Never said I didn't like the oblits. I love the oblits, I just think it's sad with the amount of units we have that we're so piegonholed with this codex. I played a game yesterday and tabled a dark eldar player using huge blobs of marines 2 helbrutes some bikes and a heldrake. The helbrutes outshined all of my units but purely through bad dice rolls on the DE player's part. I know that most codices' have their strengths and weakness I came from orks to MEQ but I thought with all of the background and all of the choices we have, I would have gotten more bang for my buck. Iron warriors like to destroy fortifications not build them =P I don't remember in any of the books I read with the IW having daemon engines...I mean they're cool models and I will get some but man I'm just not happy overall, to each his own? I'll find my way with this codex like other people have said, I haven't given the codex a mess ton of play testing YET. but I did get to try a generous amount of the units against a tough opponent that it just did not measure up to.
The OP started the thread because he doesn't like heldrakes, obliterators or nurgle. Because of that he feels that the chaos codex is under powered and uncreative. He would like to have more options that do not involve taking any of those options.
Throughout the thread I have been trying to show that the codex is not underpowered. It is of medium strength and that the problems that people have with it are not unique to the CSM codex. As part of that proof, I was brought up the supposed salad days of chaos space marines when choices were abundant and everything was strong. During those times people still gravitated only to a select number of units. Things are no worse than they have been before, that's what I am trying to get across.
39 games without a loss against over 20 different opponents who weren't newbs can't be that bad of a book (played against every dex but the new Eldar and new Daemons).
), and I also am currently boycotting Heldrakes because I believe that they are stupid and over centralizing. Even still I usually win with my 
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warp storm table which has killed 2/3 of my army on turn 1-2 in the games I've used them in so far.
the 1kson player gets nothing , but 